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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Looking for the Rest of the II Legion

That’s a fair assement. It will be interesting to see what they can draw from when the codex eventually comes out.


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Marmatag wrote:
Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.


No, its testament to how powerful skew lists are - which are an inherent problem/design of 8th edition and the way Detachments work.

A "take all comers" style list with, say, a 50/50 split of anti-infantry/tank, will lose to an army that goes 100/0 or 0/100. It's just how the game works.

Ork Boyz are good, but its only when you spam them; which is the only thing an Ork can do, because none of their other units are worth anything; and even then, they win because tournaments time out, not because the list is strong (though it can take random surprise wins here and there).
   
Made in au
Liche Priest Hierophant







The only nerf I really feel Orks need is a Leadership cap on Mob Rule. I'm not sure what number it should be capped at (my gut says 15, though I could see it being lower), but it'd certainly help.

And then everything else needs a buff, of course.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Mob Rule doesn't need any kind of cap. Ork boyz are sooo easy to kill it isn't even funny.

Right now, Orks are the faction with the worst morale of the game. I have seen orks lore more models to morale than every other faction combined. Eldar and Daemons are the second ones, and even then, they are way ahead of orks in the morality department.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Whew. That was an entertaining read.

I've seen very few posts and no threads regarding nerfing Orks.

This is the first thread I've read about it in fact since 8th dropped.

Of course I guess Orks need a nerf though, I mean they just keep winning all those tournaments and they have an answer to everything (except negative hit modifiers, flyers, shooting in general)!

Orks don't need a nerf, we need a buff. As a Speed Freak player my entire army is garbage. I don't want to have to run green tide to be competitive, I want to have flexibility like every other race.

There are far better troops in the game than Ork Boyz. They are T4, 6+ save models. They die to a stiff breeze. Their weapons have no AP.

If you are to nerf Boyz, you had better nerf Bloodletters and Infantry squads while you're at it.


Tbf, Orkz are hard to nail down powerlevel wise due both to the low number and low age of Ork players.

If more people played Orkz than a half dozen old guys who bought their army a decade ago and a handful of teenagers who thought they looked funny on the shelf, there would be a better sample size for army strength. Unfotunately there just isn't a market for it.


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Man people on DakkaDakka just don't forget or forgive

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






Toronto

Come on, they have one good unit. They’ll be lucky if a squad can make it into cc and even then, if they are glued for a few turns finishing a unit off, the rest of their army is getting killed. Let the orks keep their one unit that makes them a low mid tier army/ even with that still low tier. I’d say if other units got buffs, they’d be mid.

Adepta Sororitas: 3,800 Points
Adeptus Custodes: 8,100 Points
Adeptus Mechanicus: 8,400 Points
Alpha Legion: 4,400 Points
Astra Militarum: 7,500 Points
Dark Angels: 16,800 Points
Imperial Knights: 12,500 Points
Legio Titanicus: 5,500 Points
Slaaneshi Daemons: 3,800 Points
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






I'd like to see this threads first.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

ERJAK wrote:
Tbf, Orkz are hard to nail down powerlevel wise due both to the low number and low age of Ork players.

If more people played Orkz than a half dozen old guys who bought their army a decade ago and a handful of teenagers who thought they looked funny on the shelf, there would be a better sample size for army strength. Unfotunately there just isn't a market for it.


A perfect demonstration of someone upsetti spaghetti that people don't agree with them. Does him saying "Sisters of Battle have low player count" rile your jimmies that much?

---

As an aside, Ork boyz will have to be reduced in strength considering that (Like all other armies) Orks will get "Reroll hits of 1" as an aura, -1 to be hit as a race trait and potentially more ways to buff them via wierdboys.
But note that this is only 'Slugga Boyz' and not 'Shoota Boyz' - who are not being complained about at all. How do we 'nerf' one but not the other?

..and after that's done, all other non-horde Ork units need to be changed, for the greater good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/05 06:48:43


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Slugga Boyz Sluggas are at S-1 AP0 D1, with the Chainsword Rule. All Boyz also have Smackas or Stabbas, which are SUser AP0 D1, but withOUT the Chainsword rule. So, base, Sluggas get 2 S4 attacks and 1 S3 attack.

Meanwhile, ALL Orks get the "Accuracy? Waz Dat?" special rule. They never suffer from negative hit modifiers when shooting. Fluff-wise, Orks don't really aim. They just shoot in the general direction of their enemy, so all that sleight of hand trickery to conceal your EXACT position doesn't matter-the hail of bullets is just entering your general area. So, while only 1 in 3 Ork shots hit, that happens NO MATTER WHAT.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






If Boyz get some durability buffs from new auras, or chapter tactics, or stratagems etc they will certainly need a price hike. Otherwise green-tide will be obnoxious. Buffing the entire codex to match a slightly more durable Boy would make Orkz oppressive.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Galas wrote:
Eldar and Daemons are the second ones, and even then, they are way ahead of orks in the morality department.


I'm pretty confident that Daemons never get to claim they are ahead of anyone when it comes to morality - I'd generally argue the same for most varieties of Eldar, too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/05 07:42:42


2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

What people fail to understand, or maybe they just intentionally deny it, is that boyz won't do that much damage in combat. Of course they're going to overkill over troops but against armored stuff they can just tarpit things.

Some lists are doing ok or even very well in tournaments because the meta is saturated with anti tank. Tons of lascannons, dark lances, dark reapers, etc....

A tipycal Gulliman lists with several razorbacks and 1-2 stormraven can table a green tide with little effort. Seriously just take TAC lists and orks hordes wouldn't be so scary. A mix of 50/50 anti infantry/anti tank isn't TAC IMHO, I've always thought that anti infantry should be dominant in an all comers list. In fact with the excpetion of drukhari, which have basically no answers to hordes, I always bring TAC lists with orks and SW that have 70% anti infantries (considering shooting and melee) and just 30% anti tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hollow one wrote:
If Boyz get some durability buffs from new auras, or chapter tactics, or stratagems etc they will certainly need a price hike. Otherwise green-tide will be obnoxious. Buffing the entire codex to match a slightly more durable Boy would make Orkz oppressive.


Well I think that if transports and other units get buff, even affecting boyz, greentides wouldn't be so popular. At the moment greentides are common not because they have potential to do a lot of damage, but because they can avoid getting tabled. Only that. A most resilient ork boy will just change the meta, more anti infantry in any TAC list and problem solved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/05 07:58:18


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Dysartes wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Eldar and Daemons are the second ones, and even then, they are way ahead of orks in the morality department.


I'm pretty confident that Daemons never get to claim they are ahead of anyone when it comes to morality - I'd generally argue the same for most varieties of Eldar, too.


Ok, now I understand I was talking about morale!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/05 08:08:41


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






ERJAK wrote:

Tbf, Orkz are hard to nail down powerlevel wise due both to the low number and low age of Ork players.

If more people played Orkz than a half dozen old guys who bought their army a decade ago and a handful of teenagers who thought they looked funny on the shelf, there would be a better sample size for army strength. Unfotunately there just isn't a market for it.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh Erjak you slay me.

Anyway back to the topic.

First off Orks are in no way guaranteed a -1 to hit trait, so don't assume it's going to happen. We aren't guaranteed any extra survivability with traits in fact, since the army ethos is much more offensive than defensive. You don't pre-emptively nerf a unit in case it gets buffed by something else, that is incredibly short sighted and stupid. You nerf something when and only when it's over-performing. Lets look at that, shall we;

Orks are not winning tournaments. Those claiming Orks are outperforming codex armies know they are making a false assessment. An accurate statement would be - the most competitive build that Ork players can use is extremely anti-meta, so in certain tournaments (not ITC) they sometimes perform well. The only evidence I've seen that Orks have been performing well was our 2nd and 3rd placement at the 3rd heat of Adepticon. Does anyone have anything else? Our best player was 55th at the LVO. Hardly setting the World alight.

Look at the Boy statline for a second.

6 pts a model.
M 5" (is there a slower troop?)
WS 3+
BS 5+
S 4
T 4
W 1
A 2
LD 6
Sv 6+

Ere we go (reroll both charge dice on a fail).
Mob Rule (LD = mob size/nearby mob size).
Green Tide (If this unit includes 20+ models, add an attack to each model).

Choppas are strength user, AP0 1 damage weapons that grant an extra attack.

That is not a great troop, it's a good troop, but not great, all things considered. T4 6+ save is not durable, not by a long stretch and particularly when you factor the change in AP this edition. Their damage output seems decent until you realise they have to get in to melee to do anything and their weapons have no AP. Mob Rule looks strong until you realise you only have to focus fire Boyz until they auto fail. Green Tide looks strong until you realise you only have to kill 11 Boyz to remove it entirely.

We have 9 pt Boyz models with innate Deep Strike, +2 instead of +1 when in cover for saves, 6" move but no Green Tide. They are called Kommandos. They aren't very good for much apart from minimum units grabbing objectives and tying units up in combat, they are a distraction unit.

Bloodletters are 7 pts a model, have a 5+ invulnerable save, can make charges far easier, can deep strike and have an AP-3 weapon.
Infantry squads are 4 pts a model, have 6" move, can actually hit things at range or in melee, can go up to S 4 and have a 5+ save. In an army that wants to bubble wrap its gun wagons. 4 pts a model.

   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





I'm reasonably convinced by people's arguments.

It is POSSIBLE Boyz could be too strong if everything else in the book is brought up to a power level of other decent Codexes. Of course, the more of these other units you take, the less Boyz you're taking, and Boyz strength is numbers. So it's probably fine.

It would only be an issue if there are degenerate overlapping auras really, but that wouldn't be a power level issue for Boyz, it would be an issue with the sources of those auras.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/05 11:35:53


 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Let's just give up now... we all know GW hate boyz (for Mork sake they gave use ranged weapons that were worse yet double the price of Marine weapons despite us having BS5+). Gw making boyz good was obviously a mistake and everyone hates us because we came 2nd in a tournament once... (How does that make boyz OP?). Might as well face it... boyz are going to be S3 T3 with a 7+ save and 10pts each.
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





UK

IMO orks are over performing in tournaments (by which I mean they occasionally do ok even though the army as a whole is dog-tier) because, as stated above, the only comp build is very anti-meta.

Green tide is doing well because it is rare to face. No one ever builds a counter list because because noone thinks "oh, I better prep for a mob of orks" as opposed to rick and morty or reapers, because orks are currently trash.

If and when ork boys become OP then nerf them, but until then don't kick the army that is already getting the short end of the stick.

Chaos undivided: 8300, Tau empire: 5600, Ork speed freaks: 1750

 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




The Maelstrom

Every single army list is capable if building a "Tide" army. Said armies will more often than not be a shooty armies; excepting Tyranids which can be built as a shooty or choppy horde. Pulse Tide, Bolter Tide, Splinter Tide, Gauss Tide, Devourer Tide, and Shuriken Tide will decimate Green Tide; only Lasgun/Autogun Tide and Shoota Tide will be having a rougher time (and that is all at the current state of things). Nerf Green Tide and one will have to nerf everything that shoots, excepting Orks, as they already suck bags o' stuff with regards to shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/05 13:04:24


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

If Orks get the usual boost that a codex gives them (relics, stratagems, cost reductions, etc.), but normal Boyz remain as they are (or worse, get cheaper), it'll be the most unstoppable army in the game.

Way too many auras/bubbles/boosts were designed for the Ork army without due consideration to all of them being bundled together over hundreds of models.


This is absolute tosh. For one, there is no "best in the universe." Period. Each army has its own fluff, and each codex is written to exalt that army as "the best in the universe." That's why people pick different armies. Space Marines being the "best" of humanity? Sure, I'll bite on that. But the best in the universe? No, not by a long shot. Classic fanboy syndrome. Not saying Space Marines are your favorite, as I have no idea what you play, but your average Space Marine is equal to an Ork boy, not greater or lesser.

The auras/bubbles/boosts for Orks are entirely dependent on range. Half of the time, because you have so many models, you can't spread the benefits to more than one or two units at a time. The benefits we do have are rerolled charge ranges through warbosses, a 6+ FNP through painboyz, and a 5+ invul to only shooting attacks through big meks. If you really want me to start listing all of the units in every other army that just come with base invulnerable saves, I will. Or, we can just move along.

On boyz attacking, if you can't figure out how to kill eleven Ork boyz who have T4 and a 6+ save in your shooting phase so they can't benefit from their green tide rule, that sounds like a personal problem. Maybe think of a different strategy. Ork boyz are in no way overpowered. The unit is pretty damn balanced if you ask me. No multi wound weapons, they strike at AP-1 and user strength, and they don't get a shooting phase that is worth mentioning. The only reason Ork boyz are so prevalent in games right now is because they are the -only- unit in our codex that actually works on its own and can get its points back, and that's only if you can deliver it safely through the first turn, maybe even the second depending on deployment.

Honestly, I would LOVE to be able to play something besides a boyz swarm and have a shot at winning in friendly games, let alone tournaments. I miss the old Armored Krumpany lists, Kan Lists, and Speed Freeks. But until we get a dex, boyz lists are the only real way to go, and frankly they are a hassle. I doubt even the most staunch Ork player actually enjoys moving 120+ infantry models per turn. It sucks.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

The ork armies doing okay tend to have 20+ gunz to them as well as boyz.

Distraction buggies seemed popular too.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

The statement that those "best in the universe" can't manage 2-3 is false. Looking to cheap infantries with no buffs from other units:

Genestealers have 3-4 attacks each.
Blood Claws have 3 attacks on the charge.
Wyches have 3 attacks with the right combat drug.
Harlequins troupe have 4 attacks base, ok they're not exactly chep but they also have high AP.
Ork boyz have 3-4 attacks.

And I'm not considering melee specialists. With Arjac and the right melee weapon (chainsword or pair of claws) the TWC can have 7 attacks each. Some units get to fight twice, etc....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/06 07:48:29


 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





What upsets me most of this post is how A. it’s wrong and B. It’s Wrong.

As an Ork player who won very few games before 8th Edition I’ve been able to at least compete with other armies. Now I’m trying to compete against my friend’s Blood Angel’s army but have lost 3 out of 3 games.

Tip for people who want to destroy Ork Hordes of Boyz take maxed out squads of infantry or heavy weapons. Devestators are still devestating and I’ve seen Inceptors take a 30 Boy blob down to half in one volley of shots, twice.

Secondly all Ork HQs have terrible saves especially he Weirdboy at 4+. So unless the player is taking Mega Armour snipers will take out Ork buff models very easily.

There now talk about de-buffing other armies and fix your lists. #Salt
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




DontEatRawHagis wrote:
What upsets me most of this post is how A. it’s wrong and B. It’s Wrong.

As an Ork player who won very few games before 8th Edition I’ve been able to at least compete with other armies. Now I’m trying to compete against my friend’s Blood Angel’s army but have lost 3 out of 3 games.

Tip for people who want to destroy Ork Hordes of Boyz take maxed out squads of infantry or heavy weapons. Devestators are still devestating and I’ve seen Inceptors take a 30 Boy blob down to half in one volley of shots, twice.

Secondly all Ork HQs have terrible saves especially he Weirdboy at 4+. So unless the player is taking Mega Armour snipers will take out Ork buff models very easily. It


My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





pismakron wrote:

My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.

They’ll do their job easily if you have enough snipers in cover. Honestly you’ll be killing at least 120pts with them since A. Orks won’t be able to long range them because of their 2+ cover save and B. If you screen them properly Orks won’t be able to charge them.

Taking out the buff bubbles that Orks put out is easy to do and detrimental to the army. Kill a Waaagh Banner and a Big Mek with KFF and you have just made the game turn 90% in your favor.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

Taking out the buff bubbles that Orks put out is easy to do and detrimental to the army. Kill a Waaagh Banner and a Big Mek with KFF and you have just made the game turn 90% in your favor.


I disagree, the weirdboy and the warboss are the most important buffers, then there's the painboy which is cheap and expendable. I don't even bring the banner and the KFF in my green tides, only the big mek sometimes when I field tons of stormboyz. But taking out a biker mek with snipers isn't that easy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/06 12:11:09


 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




DontEatRawHagis wrote:
pismakron wrote:

My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.

They’ll do their job easily if you have enough snipers in cover. Honestly you’ll be killing at least 120pts with them since A. Orks won’t be able to long range them because of their 2+ cover save and B. If you screen them properly Orks won’t be able to charge them.

Taking out the buff bubbles that Orks put out is easy to do and detrimental to the army. Kill a Waaagh Banner and a Big Mek with KFF and you have just made the game turn 90% in your favor.


Not really. It is more likely that you have just used 300 points worth of snipers to kill 154 points worth of Orks characters. And then you get charged.

I have played a LOT of green tide in 8th edition, and have never found snipers to be a a problem. Even when they manage to kill a character, they will almost never make their points back.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Eonfuzz wrote:
As an aside, Ork boyz will have to be reduced in strength considering that (Like all other armies) Orks will get "Reroll hits of 1" as an aura,

We already have +1 to hit which is vastly superior to re-rolling 1, and it's considered to just barely be worth its points. Most lists in tournaments don't field it.

-1 to be hit as a race trait

Like tau and tyranids got, right?
I think GW has already realized that army-wide -1 to hit is bogus.

and potentially more ways to buff them via wierdboys.

What buffs do you think are worth not firing off an almost guaranteed D6 smite? Warpath worse unless you buff a mob at full strength.

People know so little about orks and yet call for nerfs, it feels like they are trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
Orks are an army that is designed around having lots of Boyz. The fact that they can essentially bring only boyz and still be competitive is a testament to how good boyz actually are.

If anything other than boyz would be worth taking, we would be fielding less boyz.

A top tier tournament list at 2000 points in 5th was running 64-80 boyz. I can't even hope to win a casual game with that little boyz in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hollow one wrote:
If Boyz get some durability buffs from new auras, or chapter tactics, or stratagems etc they will certainly need a price hike. Otherwise green-tide will be obnoxious. Buffing the entire codex to match a slightly more durable Boy would make Orkz oppressive.


I agree, if anything boosts durability, large mobs of boyz need to be excluded. Trukk boyz, less so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote:
My Weirdboyz and Painboyz have a 6+ armour save. But then again, a weirdboy is 62 points and a painboy is 53 points with the klaw. And in spite of their t-shirt save, neither will die to 60 points worth of snipers.

It's not rare for eldar or space marines to have two units of rangers/scouts as they are actually reasonable troops choices for either of them. There is also TS hqs, eldar autarchs with missile launchers that can easily snipe our support characters when supported by another unit that can.

In may last two games against eldar, my KFF big mek did not provide a save for any other model than himself.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/06 12:33:26


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






I don't know if it's my bad look but the vindicator assassins tended to kill 1 ork hq a turn in any of my games.
   
 
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