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Berzerkers certainly can if they get the charge.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Berzerkers certainly can if they get the charge.

Yeah if the Boyz can't pay to interrupt. If the Boyz pay to interrupt point for point they win the fight even if they get charged.

And if you scale this up, the Berzerkers will eliminate 1 squad of Boyz, but then the second squad will charge and kill the Berzerkers.

This also assumes no buff auras for the Boyz, such as 6+ FNP, +1 WS, extra attacks, etc.

What makes Berzerkers good is the surrounding functionality. Berzerkers would not stand on their own as well as Boyz do. As Tyranids if i could add Berzerkers or Boyz to my army i'd take Boyz in a heartbeat.

I charged 30 boyz into choas ter mies once and only killed 1. They then fought back and knocked me down. Kept up until every boy was dead.

 lolman1c wrote:
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

well lets take a look, what unit in the Ork index/Forgeworld were people saying was a bit to good before CA came out? our FW Kill Tanks went from an affordable and useful 300ish pts to well over 400. How often are those Tanks seen now in competitive play? GW didn't make them more balanced, they removed one of the handful of competitive units we had, simply because people were complaining that Orkz had something that was good.

I fully expect GW to nerf boyz in some way and then to hand us some crumbs here and there to make up for it. "We reduced the price of Deff Koptas by 5 POINTS!!!!!" and "Trukkz will not only be 75 Points!" Or maybe "Battlewagonz will now be able to have 2 Kill Kannonz!"

Boyz are fine. They are powerfull. Maybe after bonuses in the codex with stratagems, klan tactics, etc... they become overtuned. Then maybe they will become 7ppm I don't know. Personally I think the +1 attack for being more than 20 should be removed. Instead, they should gain +1 attack in the turn they charge. This way you make trukk-boyz viable.

Also. Heavy flamers and flamers need to be made cheaper.

 Marmatag wrote:


I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.

You doubt wrong. It entirely depends on who gets the charge and since Boyz are one of the slowest moving troops in the game its likely to be an enemy unit. Here's a few examples of units that can obliterate Boyz in melee, point for point;
Genestealers
Berzerkers
Bloodletters
Demonettes

All of these units move faster than Boyz or auto attack first in combat so we expect them to charge. You don't include a 2CP stratagem I'm when factoring this in unless we start counting other stratagems and units.

This discussion is becoming really silly now.

The point for point melee duel is a silly concept. Close combat oriented units manage to be in combat for 1-3 turns per game. And ork boyz won't kill anything with a good save.

I'd argue that tacs or guardsmen should always melt ork boyz in a duel since they can shoot from turn 1 and forever if they avoid getting charged. Do tac marines need a nerf?

The overreacting towards ork boyz comes from players that refuse to change their lists in order to counter boyz or someone that usually don't play against massive boyz hordes and is just guessing about the codex.

I'd even buff boyz. In fact I'd buff the nobz leading them, who are very lackluster at the moment and they historically used to do most of the job, or I'd improve the Mob Up strategem allowing units of different type to merge. Like including tankbustas or meganobz in a blob of boyz giving those needed and handy extrawounds for a super shooty or choppy unit.

 Blackie wrote:
In fact I'd buff the nobz leading them, who are very lackluster at the moment and they historically used to do most of the job, or I'd improve the Mob Up strategem allowing units of different type to merge. Like including tankbustas or meganobz in a blob of boyz giving those needed and handy extrawounds for a super shooty or choppy unit.

Holy Moly, merging Meganobs with Boyz and the like would be so awesome! Maybe it will happen with the Codex. I want to believe! :-)

This was my idea and why i was angry with the dumb mob up strat. It's basically what we used to have and would really help protect hq units from snipers as well. Would be epic to have a painboy mob up with a unit of boyx but you then can only heal that unit.

I didn't thought about HQs. I think Mob Up could have been a great way to make those decent, average or even good units that must have a transport to work quite viable in a footslogging list.

Allowing specialists to mob up with boyz means less boyz spam and more variety to the list.

 Marmatag wrote:
I am saying it is possible to make Orks a better overall army, with a wider variety of builds, while "nerfing" boyz at the same time.

Pretty sure most Ork players would prefer that. So they don't have to bring 120+ to be competitive, and can actually bring some of the cool stuff, like Battlewagons, Deffkoptas, Bikers etc. Being 100% honest if they made Orks into an army with multiple viable builds that aren't "spammy" i would play them in a heartbeat.

Boyz are not good at all when fielded in units of 20 or 12 to fit them into battlewagons and trukks tough. Those small units are next to worthless right now, so if you nerf them, battlewagon and trukk armies will stay off the table.

So no, I don't think any ork player wants boyz to be nerfed at all.

 Marmatag wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.

Mortarion sure can. Genestealers also handle boyz because they always get the charge.

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

well lets take a look, what unit in the Ork index/Forgeworld were people saying was a bit to good before CA came out? our FW Kill Tanks went from an affordable and useful 300ish pts to well over 400. How often are those Tanks seen now in competitive play? GW didn't make them more balanced, they removed one of the handful of competitive units we had, simply because people were complaining that Orkz had something that was good.

I fully expect GW to nerf boyz in some way and then to hand us some crumbs here and there to make up for it. "We reduced the price of Deff Koptas by 5 POINTS!!!!!" and "Trukkz will not only be 75 Points!" Or maybe "Battlewagonz will now be able to have 2 Kill Kannonz!"

This is what terrifies me about GW. They never listen to Ork players because we never win tournaments (or don't have a huge place) so their only input is from none Ork players. The Kill tank had no reason to get the nerf! I've seen Kill tanks blown up turn 1 by units that cost half the price and it rarely made up its points. I mean look at CA points as a whole! God damn they made the Mork a few points less and kept the Gork the same points... Really GW? Two units that aren't nearly as cost effective as half of the other troops (paying extraordinary points for weapons that are equally likely to wound yourself than the enemy) and all you do is knock 20 points off.,. Someone once said something that stuck with me. You know you have a bad game when you feel you are powerless. The whole point of games is to escape and feel powerful! And yes there needs to be a winner and loser but you should feel like you have a chance! Not "Oh no.... my expensive mega weapons and half my points just got killed before I could even role for them... Well that's my game over...". In addition, "Oh no... GW just nerfed all my units and buffed units that didn't need a buff in other armies because idiots are upset their army isn't OP...". 40K is the definition of "The Grass is always greener" But then most ork players look down and the grass is actually just dirty beneath them.

The last thing orks need is nerfs. Boyz are fine. Additionally orks need the following buffs:

Ghazzy primarch statline. Yes I am completely serious.

Almost every ork vehicle needs a significant points reduction.

 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

I doubt anything in the game can handle Boyz in a point-for-point melee duel.

Mortarion sure can. Genestealers also handle boyz because they always get the charge.

Mortarion is a tad bit more expensive than boyz

He can plow through 30 of them per turn without ever risking dying though.

What our friends are conveniently forgetting, is that boyz can be shot before charging them, and that a ton of units can actually do so very well. The best assault unit in their codex, the mighty centurion assault squad ( ), can almost wipe out a mob of boyz per turn with their flamers and hurricane bolters and then pummel whatever is left with siege drills if they feel like it. Even when getting charged they will probably wipe out the unit charging them.
But people rather insist on wanting to hammer in nails with a screw driver, and thus nails need to be nerfed.

 lolman1c wrote:
Here is what super worries me! They said in an interview that Custo-termies can single handedly deal with 30 boyz. Now right now they can't so does this mean they already nerfed boyz or were they just lying?

I don't know about highhandedly but three of them wrecked a full 30 in a few rounds with just a little help from shooting. Custodies simply wrecked my whole army and they were all in squads of 3 models while they did it.
I can't imagine why Ork boys should be nerfed. It's not the Ork players fault the non Ork play builds a poorly balanced list, It's not the Ork players fault that the non Ork player didn't bring a tailored list.

I've used less and less boys in my recent lists and been close to winning with out them. But the games are do or die. Grot mobs are still my MVP's. Maybe Grot's point costs should go up. we're paying far too many points for Kommandos as it is, their costs should come down to about 7 points per model. The don't even gain an extra attack past out side buffs and their choppas.
The real problem is Mob sizes are still too low. 15 or 30 is just not enough! (Kommandos and boys size caps.)

I have seen first hand how quickly an army with decent antipersonnel firepower can take apart the Boyz, and I don't think they are really overpowered, just good against all-antitank/antielite armies, which they probably should be. I just don't think Orks terrible shooting has been properly costed for in the shooty Ork units. I don't really want to see Orks get better BS as its a unique trait to Orks now and sets them apart from other armies, just a points drop for shooty units (and maybe a way to deal with all the "-1 to hit" defences floating around out there - at least the ability to always hit on a 6). Also, a return of 'Ard boys as an optional better armoured troops choice would be welcome...in previous editions heavily armoured units got less benefit from cover than lightly armoured ones, and now this has been totally turned around...)

Orks as a whole need to be redone. We have 2...2 good units...thats it. we only win when we spam them.

SweetLou wrote:
Orks as a whole need to be redone. We have 2...2 good units...thats it. we only win when we spam them.

In before a space marine player lists all our characters as viable units.

I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.

 hollow one wrote:
I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.

Yeah but half of those 6 units are basically the same thing. Boyz, faster boyz and infiltrating boyz. And the most performing characters' job is basically to buff the boyz.

In all seriousness what units do we have outside of HQs that are even reasonable?

Boyz.
KMK Mek Gunz.
Storm Boyz.
Kommandos?
Tank Bustas (must be in Trukk).
Dakkajet?
Garg Squig (Forge World)?
Chinork Warkopta (Forge Wold)?

Can anyone think of anything else? I'm struggling here.

 hollow one wrote:
I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.

Just for comparison:
The Death Guard codex has 30 options, assuming you are playing pure Death Guard and ignoring daemon datasheets and index only options.
I'd say 18 of those are good enough to find their way into competitive lists, though some are rarely seen because other options are better (for example the PBC outclasses the predator, despite the predator still being as good as in any other marine army, the plague caster is always better than a sorcerer on foot, etc). Three of those are top tournament material and constantly find their way into soup lists.
Another five are not optimal, but still find their way into games, like rhinos, the grenade combo, or death shrouds as additional wounds for Mortarion. About the level I would put our planes, trukks or nobz at.
Which leaves about six to be bad, with only two of them labled as "stay away" and the other four being on the same level as MANz or koptas. If you really want to, you can play them, but they won't be great at their primary role.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
In all seriousness what units do we have outside of HQs that are even reasonable?

Boyz.
KMK Mek Gunz.
Storm Boyz.
Kommandos?
Tank Bustas (must be in Trukk).
Dakkajet?
Garg Squig (Forge World)?
Chinork Warkopta (Forge Wold)?

Can anyone think of anything else? I'm struggling here.

Gretchin!

I'll be over there, throwing 3d6 of myself into a mine field.

 Jidmah wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
I would say we have 6 good units outside of HQ. But I have no idea if that is alright, the only other army I play is a soup, so I have heaps of choices there.

Just for comparison:
The Death Guard codex has 30 options, assuming you are playing pure Death Guard and ignoring daemon datasheets and index only options.
I'd say 18 of those are good enough to find their way into competitive lists, though some are rarely seen because other options are better (for example the PBC outclasses the predator, despite the predator still being as good as in any other marine army, the plague caster is always better than a sorcerer on foot, etc). Three of those are top tournament material and constantly find their way into soup lists.
Another five are not optimal, but still find their way into games, like rhinos, the grenade combo, or death shrouds as additional wounds for Mortarion. About the level I would put our planes, trukks or nobz at.
Which leaves about six to be bad, with only two of them labled as "stay away" and the other four being on the same level as MANz or koptas. If you really want to, you can play them, but they won't be great at their primary role.

Well Death Guard happen to be part of the soup I play. Excluding HQ (as we were doing with orks) I would say DG have cultists, poxwalkers, plaguebearers, nurglings, blightspawn, bloat-drone, plague drones, PBC, and Mortarion are what you tend to see in tournament lists? So 9? maybe 8 since Morty is basically a HQ.

I mean "good enough to find their way into competitive lists" stretches my Ork list to 10+ I'd say. But when I said 6 for Orks I'm really focusing on things you can bring 3 units of and not suffer in a competitive sense.

I don't know, are we on the same page?

 hollow one wrote:
Well Death Guard happen to be part of the soup I play. Excluding HQ (as we were doing with orks) I would say DG have cultists, poxwalkers, plaguebearers, nurglings, blightspawn, bloat-drone, plague drones, PBC, and Mortarion are what you tend to see in tournament lists? So 9? maybe 8 since Morty is basically a HQ.

I mean "good enough to find their way into competitive lists" stretches my Ork list to 10+ I'd say. But when I said 6 for Orks I'm really focusing on things you can bring 3 units of and not suffer in a competitive sense.

I don't know, are we on the same page?

Mortarion, Chaos Cultists, Poxwalkers, Blightlord Terminators, Chaos Lord, Chaos Predator, Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Wings, Defiler, Foetid Bloat-drone, Foul Blightspawn, Helbrute, Malignant Plaguecaster, Plague Marines, Plagueburst Crawler, Sorcerer with Jump Pack, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Tallyman, Typhus.
Purely judging from positive feedback of dakka people and bloggers going to tournaments and doing well in them, with some common sense filter applied obviously. I somehow doubt that the guy with 3 units of melee plague marines in rhinos would continue his win streak outside of his local meta.
I don't really count my own experience valuable right now, since I feel like I have no clue what the hell I'm doing with my DG and somehow end up winning anyways - it really feels like switching to easy mode compared to orks.

If you add soup, even a little, the options explode. Warptime Sorcerers are pretty much considered mandatory, nurglings, plague bearers and poxbringers from daemons are easy CP and great troops, and that's before you even start branching out of nurgle for things like obliterators and horrors.
Compared to ork's 30+ dead options, Death Guard is a whole different world.

 Jidmah wrote:
Gretchin!

I'll be over there, throwing 3d6 of myself into a mine field.

Lol.

Get out.

I think it's worth mentioning that us poor xenos can't soupitty soup up to broaden our options. We have what we have and that's it. We are already more limited than any Chaos or Imperial player and this is true of any xenos.

Boyz dont need a nerf at all. Its simple in my mind. Improve the insane amount of useless units we currently have and itll practically fix itself.

Why?

Because currently X unit is trash, so rather than spend 120pts on it... Ill just take more boyz. Dont want to pay hundreds for a couple hopped up battlewagons? Fine spend it on more boyz. See if those units were competitive those hundreds and hundreds of point wouldnt go into taking 120 boyz, itd be a vehicle or MANz or, Mork willing FlashGitz!!!! Not boyz.


No need to nerf a good unit. Its good. Make us make choices instead auto takes

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Gretchin!

I'll be over there, throwing 3d6 of myself into a mine field.

Lol.

Get out.

I think it's worth mentioning that us poor xenos can't soupitty soup up to broaden our options. We have what we have and that's it. We are already more limited than any Chaos or Imperial player and this is true of any xenos.

I came into the game seeing that and being very confused.

If we go with soup lists; Chaos, Imperial, and Eldar are the only factions that can soup. Genestealer and Tyranids being close, but not talked about as much.
Necrons, Tau, and Orks don’t have options to ally with that are equivalent to soup.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
I came into the game seeing that and being very confused.

If we go with soup lists; Chaos, Imperial, and Eldar are the only factions that can soup. Genestealer and Tyranids being close, but not talked about as much.
Necrons, Tau, and Orks don’t have options to ally with that are equivalent to soup.

Ah fair point! I always forget about GSC and their ability to ally. I'm not sure I consider this "Ynarri" thing a faction. It's too new for me. I mean, in my old brain Tau and Dark Eldar are young usurpers to the game lol. I have no idea what an "Ad Mech" is? Wasn't that the robots that used to supply the Space Marines?

I think one of the traits should let the Merc Orks Ally with any faction (apart from Tyranids and Necrons maybe).