So, there will be plastic sisters. There will be new Sisters Beta Test rules in Chapter Approved. [Wat? What is this... Beta test faction rules. Where's ma Codex Geedubs?]
Holy cow, I wondered if this might be their "big reveal," but I thought for sure I was being absurd. I'm glad it's far enough in the future that I might actually be able to afford them!
Like I said in the other threads, I'll believe it when I see some actual goddamned minis and not just talk of the same. They've been doing these talks every few years about new plastic sisters but never delivered. If they can actually deliver this time, I'll buy an entire new army, but I'll believe it when they actually have something other htan talk.
Melissia wrote: Like I said in the other threads, I'll believe it when I see some actual goddamned minis and not just talk of the same. They've been doing these talks every few years about new plastic sisters but never delivered. If they can actually deliver this time, I'll buy an entire new army, but I'll believe it when they actually have something other htan talk.
Id you can't see the difference I don't know what to tell you. It's been clear as day to many people since Magnus.
ERJAK wrote: GW's official statement made by in their official studio preview by official employees is SoB 2019.
Where?
Supposedly at Adepticon. However, no one has produced video or picture based evidence of this official studio preview of Sisters of Battle.
I think I saw it in the live stream. They had a ton of quotes from FB and jokes about Sisters and then... in big bold letters PLASTIC SISTERS, then they showed a cgi symbol from sisters, then COMING 2019 - Emperor Willing. They could have been fething with me/us though.
I am looking forward to plastic sisters... will be certainlu buy some allies for my imperium army. That said i am going to incrradibly annoyed if they come out and get thier rules before orks. I am tired of pretty much autolosing to codex armies with orls unless i just bring 200 boys to counter meta some lists. I also hope gw nerfs soup armies somehow i am just forseeing sister strongest unit beside supreme command custodes bikers, dreadnaght detachments and guard bodies for filling 20 command points or something absurd like that.
Notice, however, a complete lack of actual miniatures, renders of miniatures, or even concept art-- anything other other than words and a symbol.
I saw that. And it's good to see GW committing, but I reserve the right to be skeptical, and I've been burned by people including GW employees building up hype for plastic sisters in the past.
Oh boy. If this actually happens I'm gonna need to make a display spot. Maybe this will be the impetus I need to dump my Ultras to clear up some space.
I still cannot quite believe it to be true, and i am very much waiting to see the physical models themselves as well as the rules. i was wondering if such a day would come for around 5 years myself, knowing some have waited longer.
it's so far out, and who knows how this will shake out in the end. im operating on a lot of cautious optimism about this.
my guess is sisters where originally slated to get a mediocre codex at best but demand has convinced GW that a full on relaunch in 2019 is a better approuch, sisters will have to keep using the index for now but the wait should be worth it
Personally I do not care as I would never play sisters due to philosophical differences. However, from a peanut gallery perspective plastic sisters will not exist until they exist and they do not currently exist. For now there are promises hedged with a caveat and nine more months in 2018 alone for things to change.
Jbz` wrote: Bets on the exact date?
December 31st 11:59 pm ? (Probably)
Funny, but knowing GW......
I really want Seraphim and Immolators.
Immolators are in plastic. You can buy all the plastic Immolators you want right now [well, not all you want, they don't stock that many at a time.]
I'd also bet on there being new units, with a heavy focus on those new units as opposed to our existing ones. The rationale is obvious, I've said it before. I have no idea what new units would be, but they're not going to rely on us going out a replicating every unit in our army for novelty's value.
Glad to see GW officially declaring that they are working on Sisters. Sad to see they are still a bit far out. On the bright side it means I can start a high-interest savings account to stock up on gold-pressed latinum to pay for the initial wave when it comes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I still don't believe it, not until it's actually on the shelf!
For all the fanfare, if they make them, I wonder how they'll sell.
Probably pennies compared to the Plastic Thunderhawk.
Don't be stupid, they literally announced it. It is happening. Pushed up the production cycle in response to demand. That is why they didn't show it - the design (and marketing/painting) is not finished.
This needs a guy/girl who’s been working for the company for years and has nothing left to prove. Give this to the new kid who’s out to impress their boss with how creatively they can ‘reimagine’ SoB and you’re on a path to a travesty. Fans have been waiting for this for decades; promising them that their prayers have been heard and will be answered, building the hype for over a year and then dropping something new aged and different like Primaris Sisters or changing them to be non-religious or something is courting disaster. Play it safe, don’t change their identity, and they’ll be a riotous success.
All they really need is to remake every kit in modern plastic combo-kits, add a couple of HQs and maybe something new like a variant on the Penitent Engine or something, and hey presto.
Oh and change Repentia. Those things were barely ok as a concept 20 years ago. Nowadays they’re completely untenable.
Just please, please don’t give us a ‘reimagining’ or ‘updating’ of the lore à-la Primaris Space Marines. That’s a poisoned chalice patient fans don’t want a taste of.
Boob armour is fine, it’s an effective way of making models identifiably female from the other side of a table.
Women being condemned as sinful and having to earn their right to redemption in the eyes of their male saviour by stripping naked (or near to it) is not fine. At all.
I'd be ok with a 10 man sister squad. Just magnetize them so they can be standard sisters, retributors, dominions, characers, etc... that's what I'd really like, to collect 50-60 power armor girls and run them with every possible combination but keeping them WYSIWYG.
Then a few tanks, the saint and 10 seraphims. It could even be quite cheap to collect, maybe going bitz hunting for all the heavy/special weapons could be a little difficult but that's the project I have in mind since years.
Of course guardsmen dimensions and not primaris sister
The only reason I have yet to start a Sisters army is my detestation of pewter, and my distaste for resin. If this is true, it would figure they'd do it when 10 models average $50 or more.
Boob armour is fine, it’s an effective way of making models identifiably female from the other side of a table.
Women being condemned as sinful and having to earn their right to redemption in the eyes of their male saviour by stripping naked (or near to it) is not fine. At all.
Come at me.
But men stripped naked, being mind raped into being extremly violent to the point of ignoring pain and having their hands cut off and replaced with weapons so they can flagellate themselves, thats fine? Reducing men to barely human, unthinking monsters is grand as long as they don't have breasts.
The Imperium is a crappy place but its equally crappy to everyone.
Boob armour is fine, it’s an effective way of making models identifiably female from the other side of a table.
Women being condemned as sinful and having to earn their right to redemption in the eyes of their male saviour by stripping naked (or near to it) is not fine. At all.
Come at me.
I want boobs so large on Repentia that they have their own charge rules like hover tanks.
Boob armour is fine, it’s an effective way of making models identifiably female from the other side of a table.
Women being condemned as sinful and having to earn their right to redemption in the eyes of their male saviour by stripping naked (or near to it) is not fine. At all.
Come at me.
You do know that them stripping naked is to remove any protection they have, drastically increases the chances of them dying, right? That's where the redemption comes from. If they live, they can forgive themselves. If they don't, then I guess the Emperor was mad at them after all. That said, they should really be wearing a simple white robe, like what real life penitents do.
Personally I would like to see all the models merely be done up in plastic. we have a potential base in the geminiae superia Celestine has- I don't have that good an eye, but they seemed rather effective and kept the spirit to me very well for most of the battle sister models to use as a base at least to me.
On the Repentia, keep them as is as well- some take on the oath of repentance themselves, other may be punished with it, and others take it on behalf of others... but i always liked the "Slayer oath (ah... Warhammer dwarfs)" way it feels, and the removal of the old wargear is a part of that.
as I understand it the reason the robes are often red is because their clothing is a part of their old cloth wargear as they are no longer what they once where. then they fight to the death on a mission, or to successfully be considered atoned for the objective they are seeking- though often it is indeed death they find. the point of the mistress of repentence is to judge them for their actions in the field.
... seems fitting enough to me for such a fanatical organization, as some would commit themselves to this over merely a perceived failure willingly.
G00fySmiley wrote: I am looking forward to plastic sisters... will be certainlu buy some allies for my imperium army. That said i am going to incrradibly annoyed if they come out and get thier rules before orks. I am tired of pretty much autolosing to codex armies with orls unless i just bring 200 boys to counter meta some lists.
If the Sisters are getting a beta 'dex in CA '18, I think you're safe, dude. Aren't Orks due around June time, going by the rumour people?
Marmatag wrote: I hope the Sisters Codex brings them on par with Grey Knights.
That's a wee bit harsh, Marmatag. Wasn't the consensus that we should hope that books aim for Tyranid levels of balance?
Jbz` wrote: Bets on the exact date?
December 31st 11:59 pm ? (Probably)
While vaguely amusing, let's not give them ideas, OK?
BlaxicanX wrote: List the times GW has made official declerations of intent to make and release plastic Sisters of models.
I can remember a couple of seminar quotes where they've mentioned them as being worked on, but there being some technical challenges regarding cloth/hair looking right, or something like that.
kb_lock wrote: Itt: fangirls don't kmow what "emperor willing" means
And, in this contect, what do you believe it means?
Tokhuah wrote: Personally I do not care as I would never play sisters due to philosophical differences.
I'm going to regret asking this, but - what philosophical differences do you have with them?
JohnHwangDD wrote: For all the fanfare, if they make them, I wonder how they'll sell.
Probably pennies compared to the Plastic Thunderhawk.
But do you believe that to be due to low volumes of Sisters sales, or whatever ridiculous price tag goes on a plastic Thunderhawk?
Honestly, I'd be really disappointed if they removed the cheesecake from sisters. I don't like them because they're girls with guns. I love them because they're ridiculous, excessive religious fanatics with a killer Heavy Metal (The Moebius/Humanoids publication, not the genre of music) vibe.
Reasonable female soldiers is great, and there are plenty of places for that to be cultivated. But that's not at all the identity of the SoB. I want weird, crazy, and over the top with enough repressed sexual tension to raze planets.
And that includes Repentia. Their fluff is great, the old artwork for them is great, there's a lot of potential here. Violent, savage, and crazy as hell. Them not wearing much clothes never came off as sexually exploitative to me, they're future flagellants, not pinups, and GW's actually done a pretty good job of portraying them as such (you'll get a lot of rule 34 for them, but you get that for everything).
I don't feel like going back and finding the actual quote but for the guy talking about plastic thunderhawk being more profitable than SoB: LOL. LOL right in your face.
Everybody that wants a thunderhawk has a resin one and it's not like the plastic one would be any cheaper.
And that includes Repentia. Their fluff is great, the old artwork for them is great, there's a lot of potential here. Violent, savage, and crazy as hell. Them not wearing much clothes never came off as sexually exploitative to me, they're future flagellants, not pinups, and GW's actually done a pretty good job of portraying them as such (you'll get a lot of rule 34 for them, but you get that for everything).
This is what I never understood about peoples complaints with repentia. They're asexual non-people in the eyes of the Imperium and their faith (though are actually arguably treated better than average penitant). By accusing them of being a sexist thing (especially in the way kombatwombat phrased it) you're imposing 21st century morals onto the 41st millenium which is a totally different society.
Likewise, the tatters they wear are their old combat tabards to remind them of their failure. Giving them proper clothes to cover their modesty (especially white robes mentioned earlier which would symbolise rebirth and purity) humanises them and could be a comfort which is not the aim of penitance.
It's the raw savagery of it all that makes them so appealing. The more exposed, the more brutal and barbaric they seem (the developers of the God of War series used a similar ideology in developing the design of Kratos, for comparison).
The thing about the clothing issue is that it's not really an issue unless you make it one. They've never been officially portrayed in a sexually suggestive light, if anything they're grotesque.
pm713 wrote: You could just give them a sack with holes or something. Still shows failure but deals with the clothing issue.
And looks like nothing else in 40k and wouldn't sell because it looks, well, ugly.
Even the Arco Flagellants, the male(sometimes female but no models) forced equivalent of repentia are basically stripped just as nude and the head coverings are to help keep them calm before unleashing them.
Most people tend to forget them for some reason, but they are in the same sort of state.
ERJAK wrote: I don't feel like going back and finding the actual quote but for the guy talking about plastic thunderhawk being more profitable than SoB: LOL. LOL right in your face.
Everybody that wants a thunderhawk has a resin one and it's not like the plastic one would be any cheaper.
Agreed. A plastic Thunderhawk would still be in the 100s, and so out of the price range acceptable for a single model for most hobbyists. To say this would sell better than a faction any kid can pick up a box of with their pocket money makes no sense to me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a little sceptical of quite how popular Sisters will be too. I think there's very much a case of a minority creating a huge amount of noise on the issue. But still, GW have clearly done a value judgement and decided it makes sense to do it, so I'm happy for Sisters fans!
Anyone who says they don't want sisters of battle to attractive ( I mean feminine shape... not naked!) can just leave because they are lying! But there is nothing wrong with that! Heck, I have many female friends both straight and gay who have a super hard of the the Sisters! And damn right they should do! Nothing more sexy than a strong female who can be an equal to a man! I don't want to be dominated or be the dominant! I just want to fight side by side to the death for the emperor (or in real life terms, i find a woman attractive if they can be my equal). And damn right a Sister could equal most imperium men in battle!
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, pretty much the only reason this is happening has to be the big survey thing they did showing them the demand was there.
Well, that and the fact that Verydian sold out 3 times in less than 2 weeks when she was released. IIRC, she was sold out in Australia within 20 minutes the first time and I imagine it was similar elsewhere.
Or that Celestine sold / is selling like hotcakes (though that has more to do with being a staple of a Guard / Soup army than anything else at this point I suspect).
The fact that they (SoB) were / are surprisingly strong for an index army certainly won't have hurt either.
The real test will be twofold:
1) If their rules are good, they will sell regardless because that's the way it works and
2) How many people who, over the last decade+ actually follow through on their "I would totally buy an army of SoB if they were plastic" vows. I'm doubting it will even be 5% of the people who still play. Especially when it turns out that they're really not much cheaper in plastic compared to metal.
Edit:
lolman1c wrote: Anyone who says they don't want sisters of battle to attractive ( I mean feminine shape... not naked!) can just leave because they are lying! But there is nothing wrong with that! Heck, I have many female friends both straight and gay who have a super hard of the the Sisters! And damn right they should do! Nothing more sexy than a strong female who can be an equal to a man! I don't want to be dominated or be the dominant! I just want to fight side by side to the death for the emperor (or in real life terms, i find a woman attractive if they can be my equal). And damn right a Sister could equal most imperium men in battle!
And anyone who is stupid enough to make sweeping statements like the above can leave, because as bizare as it is to you, not everyone thinks with their genitals. If we're being completely honest, IMHO it's cringeworthy thinking like this that equates them being female to needing to be "sexy" that drags down a really cool faction into the gutter. Next thing you'll be asking for bare midriffs and chainmail bikinis.
I don't want them to be attractive for the sake of being attractive, nor do I want them to be hideous for the sake of being hideous, they should simply follow the same aesthetic as the current models already have (ie. normal, generic, unmodded human females in powered armour). This is a wargame, not a damn fashion parade.
Backspacehacker wrote: Dont get to hyped, remember this go around of managers loves using lore words for stuff. "Emperor willing" Is their way of saying, we are gonna try.
Eh, it's just covering their backs. I have no stake in this horse, but my reading was very much that they have solid plans for this release, that it is 99% happening.
However, completely unpredictable things can happen. Some key part of their development could be hit with disaster. They could make moulds and they get destroyed in a fire, or the lead designer for them dies from a car accident and it takes some months to recover the team, or maybe the company just hits financial trouble and has to unfortunately cut new production.
With all the will in the world, something could go wrong. No one can say with 100% certainty, not even the most senior executives, what the company will release in 2019. That's all that clause is saying, that their INTENTIONS are 100% to release plastic sisters in 2019, but recognise it's POSSIBLE for something to go horribly wrong.
I think it's a bit brave of GW to even finally try this. They're going to get raked over the coals by 40% of recipients regardless of what design decisions they make.
I will say though, Sisters players better buy a ton of models. They faded from popularity because their original sales numbers were pretty poor --- if they don't do well this time, you'll never see another set of kits. Time to put up or shut up.
'Tis a very sad day for me. I love the fact that they are making plastic Sisters. I've wanted that for years! But, they waited long enough to where I'm getting married soon, and my priorities are much different now. I most likely won't be buying any plastic Sisters.
ERJAK wrote: I don't feel like going back and finding the actual quote but for the guy talking about plastic thunderhawk being more profitable than SoB: LOL. LOL right in your face.
Everybody that wants a thunderhawk has a resin one and it's not like the plastic one would be any cheaper.
Agreed. A plastic Thunderhawk would still be in the 100s, and so out of the price range acceptable for a single model for most hobbyists. To say this would sell better than a faction any kid can pick up a box of with their pocket money makes no sense to me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a little sceptical of quite how popular Sisters will be too. I think there's very much a case of a minority creating a huge amount of noise on the issue. But still, GW have clearly done a value judgement and decided it makes sense to do it, so I'm happy for Sisters fans!
Not to mention how little use in game it is gaming wise. Huge expensive point flying transport. How many of those you usually would see on battlefield? 1? 2? How many take even 1?
Sisters meanwhile can be good soup ingredient for imperial armies...For small points which means more reasons to take than huge expensive flyer more suited for 4000+ pts games
A codex that did not come with miniature releases. Closest thing we got to "new" minis was, at the time, Veridyan, a limited-edition release at the time as well.
Elbows wrote: I think it's a bit brave of GW to even finally try this. They're going to get raked over the coals by 40% of recipients regardless of what design decisions they make.
I will say though, Sisters players better buy a ton of models. They faded from popularity because their original sales numbers were pretty poor --- if they don't do well this time, you'll never see another set of kits. Time to put up or shut up.
Based on what? Hard to sell btw when you don't get any updates. Expensive metals with poor rules don't generally sell.
And btwGW doesn't put out armies just on sales btw. For example squats weren't squatted because they sold poorly. They sold about same or even more than others that were kept.
Elbows wrote: I think it's a bit brave of GW to even finally try this. They're going to get raked over the coals by 40% of recipients regardless of what design decisions they make.
I will say though, Sisters players better buy a ton of models. They faded from popularity because their original sales numbers were pretty poor --- if they don't do well this time, you'll never see another set of kits. Time to put up or shut up.
The faded in popularity not just because they never saw a real update after 3rd edition (as Melissa said), but because their 3rd edition update came without the plastic models that nearly every other faction got and saw the army transformed from "Sisters of Battle" to "Inquisitor freakshow". And that was on top of the rough launch they had in 2nd edition where they were released right at the end of the edition with an extremely limited line of models and a copy/paste Space Marine codex.
Its not really surprising that two decades of neglect and the most minimal support possible would lead to poor sales. GW has never given Sisters a real chance. And despite all that they've still continued to sell after 20 years.
pm713 wrote: You could just give them a sack with holes or something. Still shows failure but deals with the clothing issue.
And looks like nothing else in 40k and wouldn't sell because it looks, well, ugly.
Even the Arco Flagellants, the male(sometimes female but no models) forced equivalent of repentia are basically stripped just as nude and the head coverings are to help keep them calm before unleashing them.
Most people tend to forget them for some reason, but they are in the same sort of state.
Again I'd say worse state. Repentia can actually be absolved and I assume have some sort of free will in as much as they aren't forcibly controlled into penance and seek it willingly. Acro-flagellants are reduced to single-minded killing machines via brainwashing, drugs, forced surgery and torture.
But acro-flagellants are men so they're disposable and no ome cares. Like I said, slap some boobs on an acro-flagellant and I'm sure we'd hear just as many complaints.
Especially when it turns out that they're really not much cheaper in plastic compared to metal.
Very few plastic units are sold at 50-60 quid a squad, and that is usually reserved for elite units that are really bulky(Centurions come to mind at 47,5 quid). Looking at the more recent lines I'd say that they have learned something from the Kirby era mistakes.
If they go for a high price point for a 10-man squad I imagine it will be about 35 quid. That's what the Fyreslayers and Witch Aelves cost(and a lot of people complained about). That's still 15 quid lower than the current Sororita squad and whopping 30 quid lower than the current Seraphim.
To further reinforce the point: A landraider is cheaper than the current Battle Sister squad. In fact the Sister Squad is the same price as a Stormraven and Seraphims are even more expensive than a Stormraven. To think that they'd price the squad at the same price point as the current selection is to be either insane or Kirby.
Tokhuah wrote: Personally I do not care as I would never play sisters due to philosophical differences.
Huh? I guess you don't play Orks or Tyranids, then.
Or any faction in 40k. There's no "good" faction. Chaos is an insane totalitarian dictatorship where only power matters, and everyone who isn't the most powerful is a sniveling servant to those who are. The Tau are a self-righteous racist dictatorship who care only for the dominance of the Tau race and the submission of everyone else to them. The Imperium is a massively dysfunctional dictatorial bureaucracy that makes life miserable for most people in it. The Eldar are a combination of sexually repressed religious extremists constantly in fear of their own soul, and hedonistic murderous donkey-caves who torture people to make their souls more palatable, so their own souls aren't taken. Tyranids nom nom nom. Necrons have absolutely no concern for the lives of non-Necrons. Orks just want a good fight and don't care about anything else.
Tokhuah wrote: Personally I do not care as I would never play sisters due to philosophical differences.
Huh? I guess you don't play Orks or Tyranids, then.
Or any faction in 40k. There's no "good" faction. Chaos is an insane totalitarian dictatorship where only power matters, and everyone who isn't the most powerful is a sniveling servant to those who are. The Tau are a self-righteous racist dictatorship who care only for the dominance of the Tau race and the submission of everyone else to them. The Imperium is a massively dysfunctional dictatorial bureaucracy that makes life miserable for most people in it. The Eldar are a combination of sexually repressed religious extremists constantly in fear of their own soul, and hedonistic murderous donkey-caves who torture people to make their souls more palatable, so their own souls aren't taken. Tyranids nom nom nom. Necrons have absolutely no concern for the lives of non-Necrons. Orks just want a good fight and don't care about anything else.
And so on and so forth.
Yeah I agree. If you want good guys, there is always LOTR I guess.
I wonder why they are pushing back the sisters release to 2019 though. I was certain that they'd be here this year.
The "luxury" of them being plastic is not a reduction in cost, really. It's the "luxury" of not being mono-pose, plus easy to assemble, easier to convert, and actually available. I hate resin as it is almost always far too breakable (and worlds worse to try to fix) compared to plastic, especially GW's resin.
Hopefully the Canoness Veridyan model and Celestine are "previews" of what's to come. I've got a whole bunch of metal Sisters plus vehicles I never worked on because I knew my painting skill wasn't up to the task, I'd love some new ones to add to them. There isn't anything wrong with the style of Sister's Power Armor, I really hope they don't change it.
The GW store managers and regional managers I used to chat with back in 2003-2005 stated categorically that Sisters of Battle were very poor selling models. That was when they had access to all the models that existed in the late 2nd ed. Codex and early 3rd.
Times may be different now, but the fact is they didn't sell very well back then. That put the nail in the coffin pretty early. Maybe now is the first time GW thinks they can justify the sales numbers. Who knows.
I wouldn't be so sure on that. Most of the Primaris and Death Guard releases had extremely limited posing options. Most Primaris kits have a bunch of weapons, but torsos, arms, and legs had to be assembled in a specific way for each model without at least a bit of converting.
I was disappointed this was the case with the Reiver, Aggressor, and Inceptors kits I've assembled.
I wouldn't be so sure on that. Most of the Primaris and Death Guard releases had extremely limited posing options. Most Primaris kits have a bunch of weapons, but torsos, arms, and legs had to be assembled in a specific way for each model without at least a bit of converting.
I was disappointed this was the case with the Reiver, Aggressor, and Inceptors kits I've assembled.
Well, at least less so than the old metals. But maybe they can surprise us with something neat. At the very least, maybe we can hope that there will be several different possible combinations of heads and torsos maybe, which is still better than the old metals.
LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote: Just please please PLEASE GW, No Boob plate and no powered armored high heels
So you feel that the current Canoness Veridyan and Celestine are not an appropriate aesthetic?
In what way then do you feel would be appropriate to represent a feminine aesthetic to power armor?
I wouldn't bet on too much posability. Currently assembling Dughter's of Khaine and the new models are very static. The models - besides being gorgeous - are always the same pose.
For ages I thought I had tinnitus, turns out it was just SoB fans complaining for 20 years... That said, 20 years is a pretty long time so good luck and I hope you get some sweet models!
Melissia wrote: Veridyan sure as hell isn't. Celestine is fine, though.
Well, I can understand that, because Veridyan is based off (by today's standards) positively ancient art.
If these new ones are in the style of Celestine though (which is very similar to the old metal Sisters, just less busy and more sleek), I would be very pleased.
I have no problem with boob plate. Power hells... It depends if they are just sligthly raised hells in a metalic boot, or stiletto ones
Im hoping for a meele elite unit with shields and spears like the one in the Karamazov art.
Eldarsif wrote: I wouldn't bet on too much posability. Currently assembling Dughter's of Khaine and the new models are very static. The models - besides being gorgeous - are always the same pose.
That's the thing, low posability allows for more cinematic, exciting posing. There's almost a tension between aesthetics and customisability. I think for me generally, I like characters to err on the side of the former (cooler, if less posable stances) and infantry the latter (more customisable but less exciting poses).
Basically because characters should look more badass, but also I dislike being forced to field multiple models in exactly the same pose.
They will almost certainly look like the new Celestine and her friends. They already have the files, they will be based on them. They're not gonna start from scratch when they already have a perfectly fine design available.
Elbows wrote: I think it's a bit brave of GW to even finally try this. They're going to get raked over the coals by 40% of recipients regardless of what design decisions they make.
H wrote: If these new ones are in the style of Celestine though (which is very similar to the old metal Sisters, just less busy and more sleek), I would be very pleased.
I may have to finally break my “Xenos only” rule if they do indeed make sisters models and they are as nice as Celestine and her geminae. After reading the Monstress comics I have been hankering for an army of Cumaean battle nuns.
pm713 wrote: You could just give them a sack with holes or something. Still shows failure but deals with the clothing issue.
And looks like nothing else in 40k and wouldn't sell because it looks, well, ugly.
People buy Centurions and Primaris marines don't they? Ugly won't stop things. How is looking new bad?
There's a difference in the aesthetics between Centurions and a bald women wearing a sack.
Yes but both are ugly which is why it's a bad argument for why it doesn't work.
Aesthetics doesn't just mean good looking it means the overall look of something. Centurions might be ugly models but they still fit the rediculousness of 40k and fit the range. They don't look out of place and they convey what they are.
Nothing about bald women wearing sack cloth would really convey what they are visually.
Screaming crazy bald women in torn, bloody, and tattered sackcloth robes, covered in purity seals wielding battered and half-broken chain-zweihanders is practically the epitome of everything that is 40k.
Melissia wrote: Screaming crazy bald women in torn, bloody, and tattered sackcloth robes, covered in purity seals wielding battered and half-broken chain-zweihanders is practically the epitome of everything that is 40k.
So very true! But how did you get footage of a GW planning meeting?
Melissia wrote: Screaming crazy bald women in torn, bloody, and tattered sackcloth robes, covered in purity seals wielding battered and half-broken chain-zweihanders is practically the epitome of everything that is 40k.
Melissia wrote: Screaming crazy bald women in torn, bloody, and tattered sackcloth robes, covered in purity seals wielding battered and half-broken chain-zweihanders is practically the epitome of everything that is 40k.
Melissia wrote: Screaming crazy bald women in torn, bloody, and tattered sackcloth robes, covered in purity seals wielding battered and half-broken chain-zweihanders is practically the epitome of everything that is 40k.
Screaming baldness is40k!
I am quite excited for this release. Games Workshop has thus far done an excellent job of updating old stuff from the 80's/90's.
Melissia wrote: Screaming crazy bald women in torn, bloody, and tattered sackcloth robes, covered in purity seals wielding battered and half-broken chain-zweihanders is practically the epitome of everything that is 40k.
That is pretty much what I want, except seeing as how crazy people are nowadays they will say its misogynistic to show women in such an abused and ragged state.
Regardless if GW deviates too far from this, then I will be complaining no doubts about it.
Thargrim wrote: That is pretty much what I want, except seeing as how crazy people are nowadays they will say its misogynistic to show women in such an abused and ragged state.
Repentia are already great models, honestly the whole sisters line is great,its just clone heavy. (Except that screaming scroll holding one we all know) a new line to me at least means the old line will probably drop in price, so if i dont like the new look at least the price of the old will be marginally cut.
To be honest, if they kept relatively the same level of detail (but updated iwth modern quality of course, especially more scars and the like), but fixed the posing to make it more aggressive and dynamic, that design would be perfectly fine.
LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote: Just please please PLEASE GW, No Boob plate and no powered armored high heels
Why? The girls I know that play 40k actually want feminine models.
Or should we have "They of Battle" where you really can't tell if it's a man or woman?
LunaWolvesLoyalist doesn't want Sisters of Battle. They want reasonable female characters. And that's fine, 40k could definitely use some of that (whenever Guard get a new much needed infantry box, they'd do well to toss in a couple female heads). But that's not SoB. At no point were Sisters meant to be reasonable or realistic.
That's a logical fallacy. While I'm okay with the boob-plate as an ornamental thing on the armor, it's very clearly not necessary to have a girl have her tits out in order for her to be feminine.
Melissia wrote: That's a logical fallacy. While I'm okay with the boob-plate as an ornamental thing on the armor, it's very clearly not necessary to have a girl have her tits out in order for her to be feminine.
You mean like Slaanesh models?
I don't think it's possible to create a female model that doesn't offend someone.
And I was responding to boob plate. Can you point to my logical fallacy, and explain what it was?
LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote: Just please please PLEASE GW, No Boob plate and no powered armored high heels
Why? The girls I know that play 40k actually want feminine models.
Or should we have "They of Battle" where you really can't tell if it's a man or woman?
LunaWolvesLoyalist doesn't want Sisters of Battle. They want reasonable female characters. And that's fine, 40k could definitely use some of that (whenever Guard get a new much needed infantry box, they'd do well to toss in a couple female heads). But that's not SoB. At no point were Sisters meant to be reasonable or realistic.
Can you define reasonable female characters? What does that mean?
Ultimately this line of thinking will conclude that all of the current Guard / Marine range could be acceptable female models.
I know this is absolutely off topic but as we are talking bodies and variety here... what I really want are more strongman/fatbutmuscled bodytipes.
And not just ogres.
Look at this miniature, this is beauty, I want more like him. I'm tired of all male miniatures being or skinny because they are things like sorcererrs or ultra muscular. Or average humans like Cadians or Empire State Troops:
Marmatag wrote: I don't think it's possible to create a female model that doesn't offend someone.
The existence of Sisters of Battle alone offends a certain kind of pathological manchild, yes. But that's irrelevant, the point isn't necessarily to cause or not cause offense. It's just to have an interesting visual design.
Marmatag wrote: And I was responding to boob plate. Can you point to my logical fallacy, and explain what it was?
I quote:
Marmatag wrote: Or should we have "They of Battle" where you really can't tell if it's a man or woman?
Your assertion here is that if Sisters of Battle did not have enormous fake gag-boobs on their armor, no one could identify them as women. This is a patently absurd false dichotomy. You don't need boob-cups to identify the wearer of armor as feminine. I'm not saying this as an argument to remove them, I'm just saying your argument here doesn't make any sense.
Or to turn it around-- do you believe that marines need to have a shiny metal gag-penis sticking brazenly and openly out of their codpieces, with a pair of spiky hanging hanging balls underneath, in order to identify them as men?
Melissia wrote: That's a logical fallacy. While I'm okay with the boob-plate as an ornamental thing on the armor, it's very clearly not necessary to have a girl have her tits out in order for her to be feminine.
It has nothing to do with being feminine. It's about the flying rodent gak insane craziness and excess that makes the Ecclesiarchy weird and wonderful. The Ecclsiarchy is all about the same kind of devotion and fanaticism that Chaos worshippers have, just bottled up and barely contained on a different side. In a way, the boobplate is decorational as a symbol not necessarily as a piece of sexuality, but as a visage of an ideal that the Imperium or the Ecclisiarchy wants to represent through the deification of the exaggerated human form(and that might be a bit over the top for toy soldiers, but that's exactly what makes SoB/Inquisition/Administorium so appealing to me in the first place).
For what it's worth, I do think that Arco Flagellants (of which there should probably be some female ones) and Death Cult Assassins (of which there should probably be male ones) should also dial up the whole warped sexual-aggression thing, really up that body horror. The thing that separates the flagellants from those warped by the forces of Chaos is that there's no magic involved, someone went out of their way with the intent make them that way. This isn't the whimsical caprices of a mystical abstract force, this was planned and designed by human hands. That's far more terrifying than anything Chaos can muster.
So throw in a spiked codpiece or three while they're at it.
I wasn't making an argument for removing boob-cups-- frankly, I actually rather like Celestine's mini and think she should be the basis for new Sisters.
I just think-- and my argument IMO rather proved-- that the argument that Marmatag presented was wrong.
Right now my main issue is to decide if I should buy up the old repentia models while they still exist....
Or not, on the basis they might actually get removed from the new Codex, and I'll have spent a fortune on models I can likely never use to even Proxy as anything.
And anyone who is stupid enough to make sweeping statements like the above can leave, because as bizare as it is to you, not everyone thinks with their genitals. If we're being completely honest, IMHO it's cringeworthy thinking like this that equates them being female to needing to be "sexy" that drags down a really cool faction into the gutter. Next thing you'll be asking for bare midriffs and chainmail bikinis.
I don't want them to be attractive for the sake of being attractive, nor do I want them to be hideous for the sake of being hideous, they should simply follow the same aesthetic as the current models already have (ie. normal, generic, unmodded human females in powered armour). This is a wargame, not a damn fashion parade.
Stop lying. Admit we all want sexy but strong looking sisters of battle. Who said bare midriffs? Are you saying women can't look sexy unless they show off skin? Because that's pretty sexist! but no seriously, even my partner wants to see sexy sisters of battle but still with cool armour and toughness. And she doesn't even play 40k!
I don't mind the boob plate. It's not realistic, yeah, but nothing about the Imperium is. Over the top ornamentation is par for course for the IoM *especially* the Ecclesiarchy. Keep in mind these are the same weirdos that clone lobotomized infants so they can stitch angel wings and cybernetics as a fashion statement.
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't mind the boob plate. It's not realistic, yeah, but nothing about the Imperium is. Over the top ornamentation is par for course for the IoM *especially* the Ecclesiarchy.
have you seen the size of some of those crotch codd peices? Space marines look smexy as hell! With their abbs carved into their armour and strong masculine shoulders! I'd sleep with one!
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Right now my main issue is to decide if I should buy up the old repentia models while they still exist....
Or not, on the basis they might actually get removed from the new Codex, and I'll have spent a fortune on models I can likely never use to even Proxy as anything.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh...
I got a unit a while back. Just so I can play an army of just metal should I feel like it when plastic SoBs happened.
So, something just hit me. I don't think it's come up in the various conversations about the sisters' aesthetic, but the boob plate and corsetesque armor isn't there for sexy (whether it is or not is in the eye of the beholder). It's just more of the same that the ministorum puts out. The holy human form. The sisters are supposed to be obviously female because we're supposed to exalt in the female form, not as in 'hey sexy', but from a sense of ideal purity.
Melissia wrote:You don't need boob-cups to identify the wearer of armor as feminine. I'm not saying this as an argument to remove them, I'm just saying your argument here doesn't make any sense.
Eh... You're dealing with miniatures roughly an inch big. Hair is obvious, boobs are obvious but the other physical differences like height, cleaner limbs, wider hips and facial structure aren't obvious without being emphasised to the point of being a caricature.
Helmeted Sisters would be hard to make feminine without the current Gothic aesthetic.
Boob plate doesn't need to be in heroic scale though.
phydaux wrote:I think I can do this in five sprues:
1. Four basic Sisters with Bolters and options to convert one to an Imagifier
2. Sister Superior with various CCW options, Hand Flamer, and Meltapistol.
3. Weapons sprue with one each of the following - Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Multimelta
4. Four Seraphim with Jump Packs
5. Seraphim Superior with various CCW options, Hand Flamer, and Meltapistol.
Celestians would still be very similar to regular sisters just with a different weapon loadout. With the new range, you might as well take the opportunity to make them a bit more ornate and easily distinguishable from line Battle Sisters.
Could see it being like the GK strike squads where all the options are in one box.
Hoping for a 'regular armour' box for the Battle Sister, Retributor and Dominion squads and an 'ornate armour' box for Celestians and Serephim at the very least.
Sim-Life wrote: There's a difference in the aesthetics between Centurions and a bald women wearing a sack.
Yeah, sure. Bald repentia wearing a sack is ugly in a meaningful, intentional way that works wonder to carry the theme of the model. They are fallen, broken people, how course they are ugly. It's that ugliness that makes the miniature striking and relevant. It's what makes them truthful to the theme.
Centurion are just ugly in a meaningless way, while they tried to look bad-ass and imposing.
Marmatag wrote: Or should we have "They of Battle" where you really can't tell if it's a man or woman?
Space Marines are some “They of Battle”. Yet suggest that the lore could be updated to have half of them be women and people go all up in arms, even though that wouldn't change a thing about the models.
Yeah, apparently you don't need to make the gender obvious on the armor to have people care about it.
Fafnir wrote: LunaWolvesLoyalist doesn't want Sisters of Battle. They want reasonable female characters.
You can have models that don't have boobplate or anything like it, and still are completely unreasonable.
Fast pointy ear wrote: Eh... You're dealing with miniatures roughly an inch big. Hair is obvious, boobs are obvious but the other physical differences like height, cleaner limbs, wider hips and facial structure aren't obvious without being emphasised to the point of being a caricature.
Mmmpi wrote: So, something just hit me. I don't think it's come up in the various conversations about the sisters' aesthetic, but the boob plate and corsetesque armor isn't there for sexy (whether it is or not is in the eye of the beholder). It's just more of the same that the ministorum puts out. The holy human form. The sisters are supposed to be obviously female because we're supposed to exalt in the female form, not as in 'hey sexy', but from a sense of ideal purity.
Thats actually something that didn't come to mind for me until you said it. as i understand it, the armor was commissioned by Vandire, but now i wonder how much input the original Daughters of the emperor had in the design. sure, after the formation of the sisters of battle the fact it's designed as such fits in with the Decree Passive (clearly female armor, and all), and on a lore standpoint it seems the faction keeps use and maintains what equipment they get quite consistently, but i hadn't thought of the concept of ideal mankind in the design of the armor until now. how little do we know about the original daughters of the emperor and what they believed before Vandire picked them up? was this more something the Daughters themselves believed in before getting picked up, or was this Vandire, or both?
Times like this make me wish i could get some of the imperial cult's books, including the Lectitio Divinitatus, as improbably and likely shouldn't be attempted to be written.
As an aside, I've seen a couple of comments regarding battle heels - and, as a WMH player/collector, I've seen my fair share of them.
However, I don't remember any in the current SoB range, other than Canoness Varifocal - and hers are due to being an attempt to directly transfer a Blanche painting into a model.
Are there actually any SoB models in battle heels, or is their armour actually sensible in that regard?
I'd like to see them do a plastic multi-part kit that matches the original sculpts, but gives more dynamic posing, weapon and head options, along with some characters to match. The old-schoolers like myself will then be happy.
From there, they can then branch out into new/resculpted units with a crazy redesign/options that new people will love and old-schoolers will consider one a case-by-case basis. I doubt they'll do this of course, based on modern army updates. Scale is also a concern with everything being 'biggerized', as making them look gigantic alongside the old line will push people to consider other companies that do 'female sci-fi soldiers', like Toughest Girls in the Galaxy. I guess we'll just have to see.
Yep. Shes she only one with heels and that was deliberate omage to the inspired art. Not even the canoness have heels. Lot of people get caught up over a single special edition model and make sweeping statements about sisters in stilettos.
I could stand to see the cone boob on the cannoness and mistress go. Pretty sure madonna wants those back. I cant paint those without laughing. Those things should be generating their own attacks.
Sim-Life wrote: There's a difference in the aesthetics between Centurions and a bald women wearing a sack.
Yeah, sure. Bald repentia wearing a sack is ugly in a meaningful, intentional way that works wonder to carry the theme of the model. They are fallen, broken people, how course they are ugly. It's that ugliness that makes the miniature striking and relevant. It's what makes them truthful to the theme.
Centurion are just ugly in a meaningless way, while they tried to look bad-ass and imposing.
There are many ways of representing a flagellant. Sackcloth is one of them, but is somewhat grounded. 40k, and in particular the religious elements, is not grounded but turned way up.
Repentia should evoke ugliness. And pain, suffering and devotion without end.
The old codex Witch Hunters cover, with the Repentia covered in her Oath of the Penitent and all the chain piercings and other tools of self castigation reflects that a bit better than a somewhat standard sackcloth flagellant with a big chainsword.
The side boob, not so much though.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Fast pointy ear wrote: Eh... You're dealing with miniatures roughly an inch big. Hair is obvious, boobs are obvious but the other physical differences like height, cleaner limbs, wider hips and facial structure aren't obvious without being emphasised to the point of being a caricature.
Whomever sculpted the face of the female Arcadians did a damn good job.
Still doesn't help with enclosed helmets.
Which is why the Hexenheim Storm Troopers in the post you linked only have a male version of the model.
Similarly, the other methods they've used (hair and a different armour pattern to narrow the shoulders) don't work with Sisters wearing a Sabbat pattern helm.
LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote: should we have "They of Battle" where you really can't tell if it's a man or woman?
But that flies in the face of the Sisters fluff!
Due to one power mad Eclesiarch the Ministorium was expressly forbidden from ever again having "men under arms." By arming women the Ministorium complies with the restriction while still fielding a standing army. It's a huge "screw you" to the Imperial establishment.
And I see fielding a huge army of big boobed, wasp-waisted Nuns with Guns called Sisters of Battle as a huge screw you to the whole "Did you just assume my gender?" crowd.
Fast pointy ear wrote: There are many ways of representing a flagellant. Sackcloth is one of them, but is somewhat grounded.
Grounded? By nature, flagellants aren't grounded.
Fast pointy ear wrote: Similarly, the other methods they've used (hair and a different armour pattern to narrow the shoulders) don't work with Sisters wearing a Sabbat pattern helm.
I don't think it has to. Marines aren't recognizable as all male by their armor but people have no problem with this, even those that care a lot more than they should about them being all male.
phydaux wrote: Due to one power mad Eclesiarch the Ministorium was expressly forbidden from ever again having "men under arms." By arming women the Ministorium complies with the restriction while still fielding a standing army. It's a huge "screw you" to the Imperial establishment.
Do you know in which context that deal was made? If you don't you won't understand the meaning of it.
I remember just before the Fall of cadia books came out early last year, GW released a promo teasing plastic Sisters of Battle. We ended up with three SoB models in plastic and everyone whined.
That's what happens when the interbutt over-interprets GW teasers. Until GW say "we're releasing Sisters of Battle" unequivocally, I'm not going to hold my breath.
Fast pointy ear wrote: There are many ways of representing a flagellant. Sackcloth is one of them, but is somewhat grounded.
Grounded? By nature, flagellants aren't grounded.
My bad, poor choice of words.
By grounded I meant something that either has existed in reality or something very close has existed.
For example, the various Guard vehicles that were inspired by the artillery pieces of the First and Second World War.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Fast pointy ear wrote: Similarly, the other methods they've used (hair and a different armour pattern to narrow the shoulders) don't work with Sisters wearing a Sabbat pattern helm.
I don't think it has to. Marines aren't recognizable as all male by their armor but people have no problem with this, even those that care a lot more than they should about them being all male.
Two points to that.
Firstly, there are marines that are very clearly male by their armour.
The Sanguinary Guard, Astorath, the Sanguinor and all the other Blood Angel nipple armour models are all examples of a Gothic style armour meant to accentuate and celebrate the male human form.
Secondly, by default soldiers are thought of as male. There is nowhere near as much of a need to show your male soldiers as male as there is for your female ones.
BBAP wrote:I remember just before the Fall of cadia books came out early last year, GW released a promo teasing plastic Sisters of Battle. We ended up with three SoB models in plastic and everyone whined.
That's what happens when the interbutt over-interprets GW teasers. Until GW say "we're releasing Sisters of Battle" unequivocally, I'm not going to hold my breath.
They have said it is as part of a full codex release.
EDIT: Hang on, I might be misremembering that last part.
Melissia wrote:You don't need boob-cups to identify the wearer of armor as feminine. I'm not saying this as an argument to remove them, I'm just saying your argument here doesn't make any sense.
Eh... You're dealing with miniatures roughly an inch big. Hair is obvious, boobs are obvious but the other physical differences like height, cleaner limbs, wider hips and facial structure aren't obvious without being emphasised to the point of being a caricature.
Boob plate is a defining feature of fantasy, which 40k definitely is. I hope we get more (ahem) "blessed" Sisters.
Looks like DDs in a 1950s "rocket" bra.
Oh yeah, 40k models *are* caricatures. That's a given.
Or to turn it around-- do you believe that marines need to have a shiny metal gag-penis sticking brazenly and openly out of their codpieces, with a pair of spiky hanging hanging balls underneath, in order to identify them as men?
Holy gak as an ork player I want that so bad.... I would have an entire squad of nobs with looted nobs.
Those aren't wearing a sack. And the bondage subtext is better kept for Dark Eldars and Slaanesh, where it belongs.
Beside, the hawtest, awesomest, best Adeptus Sororitas cosplay ever have always been and will always be about the best Sororitas (but NOT Sisters of Battle) model:
I for one hope they're just trolling SoB players because SoB tears are a staple of the community. Every thread, no matter the topic, has someone crying about plastic sisters.
Danny slag wrote: I for one hope they're just trolling SoB players because SoB tears are a staple of the community. Every thread, no matter the topic, has someone crying about plastic sisters.
Fast pointy ear wrote: Firstly, there are marines that are very clearly male by their armour.
The Sanguinary Guard, Astorath, the Sanguinor and all the other Blood Angel nipple armour models are all examples of a Gothic style armour meant to accentuate and celebrate the male human form.
I agree, but they are the exceptions, not the norm.
Melissia wrote: I wasn't making an argument for removing boob-cups-- frankly, I actually rather like Celestine's mini and think she should be the basis for new Sisters.
I just think-- and my argument IMO rather proved-- that the argument that Marmatag presented was wrong.
You are confusing "my argument" with "the argument that you fabricated, and then attacked."
Marmatag wrote: Or should we have "They of Battle" where you really can't tell if it's a man or woman?
Space Marines are some “They of Battle”. Yet suggest that the lore could be updated to have half of them be women and people go all up in arms, even though that wouldn't change a thing about the models. Yeah, apparently you don't need to make the gender obvious on the armor to have people care about it.
If that's the case you've had plastic sisters of battle for years, haven't you?
Remember this conversation was started by someone who said that sisters of battle should not have boob plate.
On Boob Plate-which I have no idea how relevant it is, but hey, was in the last post-I'm of the opinion that IN GENERAL it's fething stupid, but for SoB it makes sense.
The whole POINT of SoB is that they're ladies, so armor that emphasizes that makes sense. Plus, the Imperium (outside of the guard) has a big form over function thing going on.
So boobplate on female guardsmen? Stupid.
Boobplate on SoB? Eh, whatever. I'm cool with it.
There are some really high quality plastic female heads you can buy. A friend of mine runs SOB and he has his army with marine bodies, but with female heads. Those are his plastic sisters, and they look great.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
Marmatag wrote: There are some really high quality plastic female heads you can buy. A friend of mine runs SOB and he has his army with marine bodies, but with female heads. Those are his plastic sisters, and they look great.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
I think it's because most of us that like boob plate don't want to post about it for fear of derailing entire topics and turning it into being attacked personally because we're some sort of underhive scum.
Marmatag wrote: There are some really high quality plastic female heads you can buy. A friend of mine runs SOB and he has his army with marine bodies, but with female heads. Those are his plastic sisters, and they look great.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
I think it's because most of us that like boob plate don't want to post about it for fear of derailing entire topics and turning it into being attacked personally because we're some sort of underhive scum.
I know you're posting from the UK, but this general attitude sums up America right now. It's just not safe to argue in favor of something you like against those who might get offended. The risk is too high.
I'm going to argue in favor of what my girlfriend likes. She wants her models to be hot, so we've branched into third party miniatures. We might look at the Daughters of Khaine, they're a good example of what she's looking for in a general sense.
I never get the arguments on here for female models.
Its always starts as we need more female representation.
Then someone points out something like SOB
Then they start to complain that SOB models are objectified with boob plates
Then someone points out that you can simply do a head swap on most miniatures (IG, generic SM ect) and get exactly what they are looking for
Then they say that the head swap isn't enough because they need obviously female models..... aka boob plates
Either way ill be picking up some of these to mix with my crusader themed IG. I already have some priests now I just need some nuns with guns.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
I think it's because most of us that like boob plate don't want to post about it for fear of derailing entire topics and turning it into being attacked personally because we're some sort of underhive scum.
I know you're posting from the UK, but this general attitude sums up America right now. It's just not safe to argue in favor of something you like against those who might get offended. The risk is too high.
I'm going to argue in favor of what my girlfriend likes. She wants her models to be hot, so we've branched into third party miniatures. We might look at the Daughters of Khaine, they're a good example of what she's looking for in a general sense.
speak for yourself in not wanting to offend another based on opinion. if your (not yours specifically, I'm referring in general) argument can't stand up to vigorous public discourse, your (again not spec) argument carries no weight.
I love how the sisters look, I love how sis of silence look. changing something for the sake of argument is the most ridiculous thing that can happen.
if someone has an entirely different opinion on something, they have the right to it. but if they're just louder than yours it doesn't make your argument less valid. if you (not you) get offended by something someone says, then thats a personal problem and you should just go curl up into a ball or stop wasting oxygen that everybody else could use. isn't the old adage "sticks n stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"
everybody needs to get over giving a scheiss about hurting another's feelings. opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one and it matters just as much as what comes out of it.
everyone has to respect that a difference of opinion is just that. If you want less boobplate, fine. if you want more boobplate, fine. if you only want (x) fine. it doesn't mean it's gonna happen. GW will do whatever they want and if you don't like it, see the above. vote w your wallet.
if you don't like what I've said, that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
anyway, I really hope they maintain the look, just like they did w Celestine & her wonder twins.
Those aren't wearing a sack. And the bondage subtext is better kept for Dark Eldars and Slaanesh, where it belongs.
100% Wrong. The Eccesiarch is *exactly* the same as Chaos, and Repentia are merely Imperial Daemonettes for all intents and purposes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: I'm going to argue in favor of what my girlfriend likes. She wants her models to be hot, so we've branched into third party miniatures.
Kingdom Death, my friend. The pinups and other narratives are overtly sexy and characterful. The pending beefcake may also catch her eye.
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't mind the boob plate. It's not realistic, yeah, but nothing about the Imperium is. Over the top ornamentation is par for course for the IoM *especially* the Ecclesiarchy.
have you seen the size of some of those crotch codd peices? Space marines look smexy as hell! With their abbs carved into their armour and strong masculine shoulders! I'd sleep with one!
Spoiler:
What a dreamboat...
I wonder if the Sisters will get heavy infantry. Maybe some human sized Terminator armor? I mean, it's not like the Ecclesiarchy is hurting for cash or anything. They're the kind of people to build continent sized cathedrals made of solid gold.
Marmatag wrote: There are some really high quality plastic female heads you can buy. A friend of mine runs SOB and he has his army with marine bodies, but with female heads. Those are his plastic sisters, and they look great.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
I think it's because most of us that like boob plate don't want to post about it for fear of derailing entire topics and turning it into being attacked personally because we're some sort of underhive scum.
I'm going to argue in favor of what my girlfriend likes. She wants her models to be hot, so we've branched into third party miniatures. We might look at the Daughters of Khaine, they're a good example of what she's looking for in a general sense.
My wife is the same. So are her friends that have seen my models. One of them was looking at my stuff and asked if I had any "beautiful" or "pretty" models.
From my experience women like feminine models, not men with breasts.
Marmatag wrote: There are some really high quality plastic female heads you can buy. A friend of mine runs SOB and he has his army with marine bodies, but with female heads. Those are his plastic sisters, and they look great.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
I think it's because most of us that like boob plate don't want to post about it for fear of derailing entire topics and turning it into being attacked personally because we're some sort of underhive scum.
I'm going to argue in favor of what my girlfriend likes. She wants her models to be hot, so we've branched into third party miniatures. We might look at the Daughters of Khaine, they're a good example of what she's looking for in a general sense.
My wife is the same. So are her friends that have seen my models. One of them was looking at my stuff and asked if I had any "beautiful" or "pretty" models.
From my experience women like feminine models, not men with breasts.
Agreed. I bought the Forge World Keeper of Secrets recently and my fiance offered to paint her she loved her so much compared to my "other" models...
JNAProductions wrote: On Boob Plate-which I have no idea how relevant it is, but hey, was in the last post-I'm of the opinion that IN GENERAL it's fething stupid, but for SoB it makes sense.
The whole POINT of SoB is that they're ladies, so armor that emphasizes that makes sense. Plus, the Imperium (outside of the guard) has a big form over function thing going on.
So boobplate on female guardsmen? Stupid.
Boobplate on SoB? Eh, whatever. I'm cool with it.
I've thought about this for a while, and the above sums up my thoughts on Sororitas boob-plate. There are examples of the design crossing over into self parody (Canoness thingy's high heels, the boob-spikes on the generic Canoness) but on the whole iit's quite subtle and not particularly sexualised, which is fine by me.
Asmodios wrote:I never get the arguments on here for female models.
Its always starts as we need more female representation.
Then someone points out something like SOB
Then they start to complain that SOB models are objectified with boob plates
Then someone points out that you can simply do a head swap on most miniatures (IG, generic SM ect) and get exactly what they are looking for
Then they say that the head swap isn't enough because they need obviously female models..... aka boob plates
This is pretty tortured logic. You're not syncretising a strawman from the scattered fragments of internet whiners and trying to pass it off as things people actually believe,are you?
Marmatag wrote: But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most.
You realise the histrionic, attention-starved extremists who'd say this stuff are not representative of the entire feminist sphere?
Also, none of his models are plus size.
Anyone who complains about a lack of plus-sized models is a moron. I like to point such people to the Nurgle section of GW's website, where they can find many examples of plus-sized representation.
Marmatag wrote: There are some really high quality plastic female heads you can buy. A friend of mine runs SOB and he has his army with marine bodies, but with female heads. Those are his plastic sisters, and they look great.
But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most. Also, none of his models are plus size.
I think it's cool sisters of battle are getting plastic. I'm a little disappointed in the community reaction and comments like: "PLEASE NO BOOB PLATE," I mean, if you want gender-fluid models you already have them. Why would you need plastic sisters?
I think it's because most of us that like boob plate don't want to post about it for fear of derailing entire topics and turning it into being attacked personally because we're some sort of underhive scum.
I'm going to argue in favor of what my girlfriend likes. She wants her models to be hot, so we've branched into third party miniatures. We might look at the Daughters of Khaine, they're a good example of what she's looking for in a general sense.
My wife is the same. So are her friends that have seen my models. One of them was looking at my stuff and asked if I had any "beautiful" or "pretty" models.
From my experience women like feminine models, not men with breasts.
Agreed. I bought the Forge World Keeper of Secrets recently and my fiance offered to paint her she loved her so much compared to my "other" models...
Ha. When I got the Mierce Totally Not A Keeper Of Seekers mine did the same.
Sim-Life wrote: My wife is the same. So are her friends that have seen my models. One of them was looking at my stuff and asked if I had any "beautiful" or "pretty" models.
From my experience women like feminine models, not men with breasts.
Sim-Life wrote: My wife is the same. So are her friends that have seen my models. One of them was looking at my stuff and asked if I had any "beautiful" or "pretty" models.
From my experience women like feminine models, not men with breasts.
My wife likes the Tyranids.
I meant in the context of female models.
Saying that women do tend to like tyranids for some reason.
You realise the histrionic, attention-starved extremists who'd say this stuff are not representative of the entire feminist sphere?
Also, none of his models are plus size.
Anyone who complains about a lack of plus-sized models is a moron. I like to point such people to the Nurgle section of GW's website, where they can find many examples of plus-sized representation.
I think you're pretty out of touch with this community. No offense. Although it's a YMMV kind of situation. I live in one of the most liberal areas on the planet, so my definition of feminism might be entirely different from yours.
In any case, the question becomes who are you targeting with an all-female line of miniatures? As has been demonstrated in the thread, the people who end up crying the loudest don't necessarily represent the satisfied majority.
I just want to see a more ornate version of this armor and with a bob-cut.
I loved the book and Shira Lucina Calpurnia is all business, like her, sisters can be done well.
JNAProductions wrote: On Boob Plate-which I have no idea how relevant it is, but hey, was in the last post-I'm of the opinion that IN GENERAL it's fething stupid, but for SoB it makes sense.
The whole POINT of SoB is that they're ladies, so armor that emphasizes that makes sense. Plus, the Imperium (outside of the guard) has a big form over function thing going on.
So boobplate on female guardsmen? Stupid.
Boobplate on SoB? Eh, whatever. I'm cool with it.
I've thought about this for a while, and the above sums up my thoughts on Sororitas boob-plate. There are examples of the design crossing over into self parody (Canoness thingy's high heels, the boob-spikes on the generic Canoness) but on the whole iit's quite subtle and not particularly sexualised, which is fine by me.
Asmodios wrote:I never get the arguments on here for female models.
Its always starts as we need more female representation.
Then someone points out something like SOB
Then they start to complain that SOB models are objectified with boob plates
Then someone points out that you can simply do a head swap on most miniatures (IG, generic SM ect) and get exactly what they are looking for
Then they say that the head swap isn't enough because they need obviously female models..... aka boob plates
This is pretty tortured logic. You're not syncretising a strawman from the scattered fragments of internet whiners and trying to pass it off as things people actually believe,are you?
Marmatag wrote: But they might offend some feminists because the heads have ponytails / long hair, and it's painted black on most.
You realise the histrionic, attention-starved extremists who'd say this stuff are not representative of the entire feminist sphere?
Also, none of his models are plus size.
Anyone who complains about a lack of plus-sized models is a moron. I like to point such people to the Nurgle section of GW's website, where they can find many examples of plus-sized representation.
You never read any of the feminist 40k threads, did you? That was the circular argument that would end up in every one of them. Now I don't believe this is how the majority of gamers feel but this is always the circular logic that happens when "we need female x model" pops up
Talizvar wrote: I just want to see a more ornate version of this armor and with a bob-cut.
I loved the book and Shira Lucina Calpurnia is all business, like her, sisters can be done well.
I would love that... for a Arbiters force! Let SoB be SoB.
Talizvar wrote: I just want to see a more ornate version of this armor and with a bob-cut.
Spoiler:
I loved the book and Shira Lucina Calpurnia is all business, like her, sisters can be done well.
For those who don't know what armor without boob-plate that still is distinctly feminine looks like, click that spoiler tag. As far as this tired debate goes, though, I don't think you'll need to worry too much about the design changing. I would be shocked if the full army didn't match the style of Celestine and the Geminae.
EnTyme wrote: I would be shocked if the full army didn't match the style of Celestine and the Geminae.
Yes, the gemini managed it quite well. They are near enough the same size as the old models and look like they belong in the same army while also bringing in new elements like the improved jump pack.
Marmatag wrote: I think you're pretty out of touch with this community. No offense.
I'm not offended by this, just confused. Are you suggesting the community holds up corner-case extremists as representative of ideologies they find distasteful?
I live in one of the most liberal areas on the planet
What does this even mean? What do you mean by "liberal"? Why would your definition of feminism differ from mine? I live in one of the wettest places on the planet, so my definition of agriculture may be different to yours.
No offence.
In any case, the question becomes who are you targeting with an all-female line of miniatures?
And the answer is always the same; you're targeting as wide a base as possible, because making your product distasteful to certain demographics is not the way to grow your consumer base.
IMHO Sororitas pattern boob plate doesn't do that. It's not an overtly sexualised thing; in fact it's barely sexualised at all, and I can't really understand the objections to it. Perhaps it will turn off a few hardcore nutjobs but who gives a gak about them? Certainly not me. I'm sure GW will be able to turn a profit by ignoring them too.
Asmodios wrote: You never read any of the feminist 40k threads, did you?
No I didn't, but everything about the phrase "feminist 40k thread" irritates my bowels.
That was the circular argument that would end up in every one of them. Now I don't believe this is how the majority of gamers feel but this is always the circular logic that happens when "we need female x model" pops up
I doubt it's how a majority of feminists feel, let alone gamers. The people who generally engage in such circular horse-gak are Ayn Rand individualist "feminists" who think yelling "YOU'RE A WHITE MALE!!" at someone in a shrill nasal voice is an acceptable substitute for logical argumentation. Their "feminism" is probably the only thing remotely interesting about them, and as such they will piss it all over every surface they can, wether it makes sense or not. They are the unaccomplished, unremarkable spawn of a misbegotten age, where everyone is angry and nobody really knows why, and you should ignore them.
tl;dr - There are feminist arguments for boob plate, and against it. The people you've been arguing with are not really feminists; they are cancer.
In an attempt to actually get this thread back on track... we already have pictures of how SoB look, to deviate from that is kind of a slap in any SoB players faces.
I am surrounded by people who take feminism to what you would consider an extreme on a daily basis. It's a part of the fabric of reality here on a fundamental level. What you call extremists i call average behavior. This is why i said YMMV, which means "your mileage may vary." I am acknowledging that this is anecdotal, but also pointing out that it's an anecdote based on an area of the world where you'll see significantly more feminists per person.
I won't lecture people in India on living with Tigers because i visited the zoo, despite the fact that i can recite facts about Tigers, their behaviors, etc, that i have learned by reading published papers / research.
And you're kidding yourselves if companies don't kowtow to their vocal minority. Consider Blizzard and Overwatch, with the Tracer over-the-shoulder pose.
Marmatag wrote: You are confusing "my argument" with "the argument that you fabricated, and then attacked."
Your post said exactly that. If you mistyped, that's your fault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote: 100% Wrong. The Eccesiarch is *exactly* the same as Chaos, and Repentia are merely Imperial Daemonettes for all intents and purposes.
Of course not. The Ecclesiarch is a human being with no special powers. The Ecclesiarchy is a bureaucratic organization. Repentia are ordinary humans driven to insane feats of faith. None of these are equivalent to Chaos (an entity for whom "organization" is almost a misnomer, and is not bureaucratic at all, and focuses entirely on the special powers of the top four members) or Daemonettes.(living flakes of Slaanesh who desire nothing more than to create excessive experiences in others through the interplay of sex and violence).
Given the comparison I made between having a boob-plate and having a codpiece with an enormous dong sticking out, it's pretty clear that's the hyperbole I was going for.
Like I said, I don't actually have a problem with the more toned down versions of the Sororitas Power Armor's chestplate as shown by the Celestine and Geminae models. I just find the notion that you can't tell they're feminine without boob-plates to be ridiculous. Yes, even for something as small as 40k miniatures.
Marmatag wrote:I won't lecture people in India on living with Tigers because i visited the zoo, despite the fact that i can recite facts about Tigers, their behaviors, etc, that i have learned by reading published papers / research
... but you're perfectly okay acting as though your experiences with extremist fruitcakes are universal, despite the fact they're only really relevant to your little corner of the world.
The people you deal with are arseholes. They might be feminists too, but mostly they're arseholes. The fact you feel constricted by that is neither here nor there. Not all feminists are arseholes - and vice versa - hence it's incorrect to pretend such is the case. It's also incorrect to pretend the corner-case nutjobs are representative of ideologies you find distasteful.
And you're kidding yourselves if companies don't kowtow to their vocal minority. Consider Blizzard and Overwatch, with the Tracer over-the-shoulder pose.
One, their vocal minority is far, far larger than GW's. Two, Tracer's butt-pose was overtly sexualised, which is the kind of thing "concerned parents" don't like to see - and since they're the ones who are paying for your games, it doesn't pay to antagonise them. Notice they didn't remove any of the subtly sexualised stuff that Tumblr feths wanted rid of? Widowmaker's still pirhouetting around in saran wrap, Mercy still isn't wearing clothes in her alt skins, all the female characters are immaculately groomed and hot at all times, Tracer is still gay, etc etc.
Conclusion: Companies kowtow to their vocal minorities when it pays them to do so, and only to the extent that it pays them to do so. If GW changes Sororitas boob plate it won't be because of "feminist" ranters.
For the record, Tracer's butt pose wasn't changed because it was "overtly sexual", it was changed because it was contrary to Tracer's personality. It was basically a Widowmaker pose, and if you weren't trying to make a martyr out of Tracer's ass then you would know that the pose they replaced it with also showed off her butt in a more goofy, flirty way.
Marmatag wrote: Ok. I consider Celestine and her Superia to have "boob plate," so that's our disconnect.
I never said they didn't. I said it was toned down from previous miniatures.
Compare:
Spoiler:
3rd (I think?) edition Canoness miniature, with utterly enormous boob-cups that are detailed for nipple emphasis, each boob-cup nearly as big as her head, which is already kinda oversized to begin with.
Spoiler:
Canoness Veridyan miniature, with bizarre skull-boobs intent on directing the eyes at her boobs over any other part of her body. They actually wouldn't be so bad were it not for the skull design.
Spoiler:
Celestine, the Living Saint miniature, whose boob-cup is far less obtrusive and toned down in comparison. It looks less like a "hey guys look boobies hehe" and more a stylistic choice in the power armor.
I specifically said your mileage may vary. If i was arguing what you're suggesting i am, then i wouldn't have said that, right? Anyway, if you want to shoot a PM to me explaining how horrible i am, i would be happy to continue the discussion there.
You never read any of the feminist 40k threads, did you? That was the circular argument that would end up in every one of them. Now I don't believe this is how the majority of gamers feel but this is always the circular logic that happens when "we need female x model" pops up
Usually those threads get derailed by entitled man babies crying about 'SJWs' ruining Star Wars by their evil conspiracy to force Disney to give a girl a lightsabre way before that.
Marmatag wrote: Ok. I consider Celestine and her Superia to have "boob plate," so that's our disconnect.
I never said they didn't. I said it was toned down from previous miniatures.
Compare:
Spoiler:
3rd (I think?) edition Canoness miniature, with utterly enormous boob-cups that are detailed for nipple emphasis, each boob-cup nearly as big as her head, which is already kinda oversized to begin with.
Spoiler:
Canoness Veridyan miniature, with bizarre skull-boobs intent on directing the eyes at her boobs over any other part of her body.
Spoiler:
Celestine, the Living Saint miniature, whose boob-cup is far less obtrusive and toned down in comparison. It looks less like a "hey guys look boobies hehe" and more a stylistic choice in the power armor.
I'll be honest i don't see a significant difference in any of those. The skull boobs are actually super cool, I wouldn't consider that the sexual portion of that miniature. You could make a case for the pose, or the shoes, but again, that seems incredibly nit picky to me.
Maybe this explains why we haven't seen a significant effort to develop slaanesh lines.
Marmatag wrote: I'll be honest i don't see a significant difference in any of those.
That's a personal failing, then, because the three are each VERY different from each other in their design features (not just size, but detailing and prominence on the miniature). Perhaps you could use some glasses.
Marmatag wrote: I wouldn't consider that the sexual portion of that miniature.
And you're kidding yourselves if companies don't kowtow to their vocal minority. Consider Blizzard and Overwatch, with the Tracer over-the-shoulder pose.
Quelle horreur! How can we ever survive this! Overwatch is ruined, man!
And you're kidding yourselves if companies don't kowtow to their vocal minority. Consider Blizzard and Overwatch, with the Tracer over-the-shoulder pose.
Quelle horreur! How can we ever survive this! Overwatch is ruined, man!
Fast pointy ear wrote: Firstly, there are marines that are very clearly male by their armour.
The Sanguinary Guard, Astorath, the Sanguinor and all the other Blood Angel nipple armour models are all examples of a Gothic style armour meant to accentuate and celebrate the male human form.
I agree, but they are the exceptions, not the norm.
To which the solution is, IMO, GW pulling the finger out and updating their range with more female human soldiers(and other things), not changing the very distinctive aesthetic of an existing faction. Big ol' grizzled Brienne of Tarth-proportioned female Ministorum Preacher. A female Commissar that doesn't have Inexplicable Cleavage. A new Guard box with a relatively sober uniform style and at least 1/3 female models. Some HUEG Cawl-esque inhuman Mechanicus monstrosity that just happens to have been a human female before becoming 97% bionic. Etc etc. There's huge scope for making 40K a more diverse, more representative(of its own background as well as of the fanbase) model range without having to make one single solitary change to the existing background or factional aesthetics, and given I rather like the existing background and factional aesthetics I'd much rather they did that.
BBAP wrote: Conclusion: Companies kowtow to their vocal minorities when it pays them to do so, and only to the extent that it pays them to do so.
The problem is, they don't. Go ahead and ask Marvel how profitable kowtowing has been for them. Ask Wizards of the Coast where kowtowing has gotten them. Ask Disney about the success of their new Star Wars film.
The problem is that decisions in predominantly nerd industries are not made based on pure profit-driven goals. The loyalty of the fans has, generally, softened the blows of each poor decision as loyal fans take a little longer to give up things that have gone bad (see also: GW fans from 5 years ago). This means that bad decisions which are relatively small can mask their effects long enough for those in charge to double down on them. By the time people realize the ideological rot, too much damage has been done and cannot be undone.
Games Workshop is actually in a fairly good position because it is a small, singular company that is not based in the US and has low visibility outside of miniature gaming - which, thus far, has largely escaped the hysteria. But all it is going to take is one popular miniatures company loudly proclaiming "We're changing things for these ideological reasons" and all hell will break loose.
That post seems to have a baseline assertion that the only reason any company creates characters that aren't a genetic scruffy white guy are to kowtow to "radical vocal minorities", which as an assumption in this argument is completely and utterly baseless.
Given this is my thread do you think we could continue to discuss plastic sisters of battle without mentioning the words 'Feminism' 'Feminist' 'SJW', or 'Boob Plate.'
I'd rather we didn't get locked with a note from the mods saying that Sisters of Battle have now been classified with American politics as a toxic topic.
Sure, but I'm not exactly sure what that leaves us to discuss. We do not yet have additional information other than "GW intends to work on them in order to get them done by late 2019".
Melissa, with regards to those pictures - to be fair, I think most of the different between the Canoness and nu-Celestine has to do with the way GW's style and production process have evolved more generally. The former was produced specifically to fit with a metal range sculpted in 2nd Ed where the proportions were often comical even by the standards of "heroic scale", the latter is essentially the "ideal" execution of the underlying concept.
I do agree though that nu-Celestine & the Gemini are great, and if they do use that template I'll be a happy chappie.
Yodhrin wrote: Melissa, with regards to those pictures - to be fair, I think most of the different between the Canoness and nu-Celestine has to do with the way GW's style and production process have evolved more generally. The former was produced specifically to fit with a metal range sculpted in 2nd Ed where the proportions were often comical even by the standards of "heroic scale", the latter is essentially the "ideal" execution of the underlying concept.
You're substantially correct, but really, I think that's the point I was trying to make-- if GW produces something closer to the Celestine miniature as opposed to Veridyan or the 2nd/3rd edition Canoness miniatures, very few people will complain.
As such:
Yodhrin wrote: I do agree though that nu-Celestine & the Gemini are great, and if they do use that template I'll be a happy chappie.
Marmatag wrote: If that's the case you've had plastic sisters of battle for years, haven't you?
Remember this conversation was started by someone who said that sisters of battle should not have boob plate.
If you take a Sister of Battle, redesign the armor to remove the boobplate, you don't get a space marine.
If you take a Space Marine and add a boobplate on it, you don't get a Sister of Battle either.
Believe it or not, they are quite different.
Also at the plus-size comment. You are trying to hard, edgy boy .
JohnHwangDD wrote: 100% Wrong. The Eccesiarch is *exactly* the same as Chaos, and Repentia are merely Imperial Daemonettes for all intents and purposes.
This is so obviously and completely wrong that I assume you are joking, but I'm still not completely convinced…
Asmodios wrote: I never get the arguments on here for female models.
You don't get that different people have different opinions? It's not that surprising, come on!
Melissia wrote: I never said they didn't. I said it was toned down from previous miniatures.
Compare:
The 3e canoness is the exception rather than the rule. Celestine and gemini look like the rest of the range.
And Veridyan only representative of John Blanche. One of these days they'll release a Blanche-marine with leopardskin shoulderpads and a skull codpiece. And heels.
BBAP wrote: The people you've been arguing with are not really feminists; they are cancer.
I am sorry, but they are demonstrably not cancer . They are human beings, not a bunch of cells inside an organism that have begun to multiply uncontrollably. It's science, bitch!
Yodhrin wrote: without having to make one single solitary change to the existing background or factional aesthetics
Did I ask for this in this thread? Or someone else? Or is it just some general observation not aimed at anyone in particular?
Crimson wrote: Quelle horreur! How can we ever survive this! Overwatch is ruined, man!
It's like Star Wars! Star Wars is now dead as a franchise, noone will ever make a Star Wars movie ever again, everyone hates Star Wars!
Some people seriously need to stop letting politics and hatred cloud their judgment .
And Veridyan only representative of John Blanche. One of these days they'll release a Blanche-marine with leopardskin shoulderpads and a skull codpiece. And heels.
Yodhrin wrote: Melissa, with regards to those pictures - to be fair, I think most of the different between the Canoness and nu-Celestine has to do with the way GW's style and production process have evolved more generally. The former was produced specifically to fit with a metal range sculpted in 2nd Ed where the proportions were often comical even by the standards of "heroic scale", the latter is essentially the "ideal" execution of the underlying concept.
You're substantially correct, but really, I think that's the point I was trying to make-- if GW produces something closer to the Celestine miniature as opposed to Veridyan or the 2nd/3rd edition Canoness miniatures, very few people will complain.
This is me. Right here. Subtle boob-plate that isn't a pastiche of itself and doesn't stab my thumbs when I pick up the model. That's what I want. Not "no boob plate". Good boob-plate.
Marmatag wrote: I specifically said your mileage may vary. If i was arguing what you're suggesting i am, then i wouldn't have said that, right?
YMMV is where you started. Then you made an allegory regarding tigers in India, an allegory crafted to suggest your opinion had inherent validity due to the fact you live somewhere where corner-case nutjobs abound.
Essentially you're using the old "lived experience" canard. "My lived experience suggests [x], hence I get to be right about [x] in defiance of all sense and logic." It doesn't work for corner-case "feminist" nutjobs and it's not going to work for you, either.
Like I said before, not all feminists. Not sure why that would amuse you so much, but since it did, here it is again. Have fun.
Anyway, if you want to shoot a PM to me explaining how horrible i am
I don't think you're horrible. I can disagree with you without thinking you're a villain.
Sqorgar wrote: The problem is that decisions in predominantly nerd industries are not made based on pure profit-driven goals.
Discussions in any industry are based on profitability, whether they cater to nerds or not - particularly if the participating companies have shareholders to pay. No company is going to release anything that antagonises a potential consumer demographic unless they're confident they can profit without said demographic's dollah, because employees who do such things tend to get horsed out the door at the next AGM.
Marvel is dying because superhero comics suck balls, and have done ever since they started taking themselves way too seriously. Disney's latest Star Wars film is failing because it is ass. Mass Effect Andromeda was a glitch-tastic horror show of a game that would've been horrendous even without the maladroit social conscience crap they filled the plot with. "Pandering to SJWs" is not the only reason things fail.
I disagree, Crimson. Quite the opposite, human beings originate from cells who begin to multiply in a very controlled way. That's why cloning is hard, especially cloning just some organs.
BBAP wrote: The people you've been arguing with are not really feminists; they are cancer.
I am sorry, but they are demonstrably not cancer . They are human beings, not a bunch of cells inside an organism that have begun to multiply uncontrollably. It's science, bitch!
Allow me to rephrase:
"The people you're dealing with are thwarted, unaccomplished extremist zealots who have been taught by consumerist culture to believe that their opinions and desires are sacred. Armed with this misconception, they have swaddled themselves in an ideology which they do not understand and cannot articulate; this they use as an excuse to rant at anything which displeases them, an act which serves as a kind of catharsis for their frustration at the knowledge that they are not as special as they've been lead to believe. Attempting to reason with them is pointless. Speaking allegorically, I would liken them to cancer, for like cancer, they ruin whatever they embed themselves into with their malignant demands for sustenance."
Guys, if we want to know what GW currently thinks females in power armor should look like, I don't think we need to go any further than the Sisters of Silence.
Looks like boob plate to me. So, we done?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Given this is my thread do you think we could continue to discuss plastic sisters of battle without mentioning the words 'Feminism' 'Feminist' 'SJW', or 'Boob Plate.'
Discussions in any industry are based on profitability, whether they cater to nerds or not - particularly if the participating companies have shareholders to pay. No company is going to release anything that antagonises a potential consumer demographic unless they're confident they can profit without said demographic's dollah, because employees who do such things tend to get horsed out the door at the next AGM.
That's the problem though, isn't it? In these other industries, on the cusp of becoming mainstream, they think that appealing to their typical audience (white, middle aged men) is holding them back from having a larger audience. They think they can abandon their current audience because the grass on the other side seems so, so green. In many cases, they think that their current audience should and will come with them (after all, only neckbeards don't want more women in gaming, right?). Having set up the premise that people who agree are good fans and people who disagree are neckbeards, when the audience doesn't follow, the only conclusion they have allowed themselves to arrive at is that they must be neckbeards, or alt-right, or nazis, or misogynists, or whatever.
Marvel is dying because superhero comics suck balls, and have done ever since they started taking themselves way too seriously. Disney's latest Star Wars film is failing because it is ass. Mass Effect Andromeda was a glitch-tastic horror show of a game that would've been horrendous even without the maladroit social conscience crap they filled the plot with. "Pandering to SJWs" is not the only reason things fail.
Marvel is dying due to pandering, from the type of writers they hired to the type of books they tried to push to the decisions they made with franchise characters. I mean, Marvel drank the Kool-Aid, big time, and you can see it in everything they say and do. I say this as someone with decades of Iron Man comics, and Riri Williams is just about the worst thing I have ever seen - Bendis is a hack.
With Mass Effect, the creators of it were very vocally pushing their ideology on Twitter (one writer suggested we "kill all white men") and declared multiple times that it was underpinning their design for the game. It's true that the game was incompetently made, but that's what happens when you hire activists instead of game developers. Even without the glitches, the political nature of the game (one character literally gives you an unprompted monologue on transgenderism) would've made the game impossible to sit through.
Disney hasn't made a decent Star Wars product yet (maybe Rebels) and I don't think they can make one. Having not seen the new movie, I agree that it probably didn't suck just because of ideology - but it didn't help.
Marvel's net income from continuing operations has doubled over the past five years, and their market share and subscription numbers are up. All this endless pc whining about "ermagerd ess jay dubyooz oh nooooez!" is nothing more than pointless self-serving nonsense, and wholly without merit. And furthermore has nothing at all to do with Sisters of Battle.
Marvel is * looks at the financial result of Black Panther, watch the trailers for the various Marvel movies to come * dying. Sure. Why not? In other news, I have the regret of informing you that Disney is totally dying. Because of Star Wars and Marvel! Soon Mickey Mouse will come back into the public domain.
You may have noticed that most GW models show exaggerated features in some way.
Giant shoulder pads, massive horns, huge swords and guns and so on. Everything that is supposed to be visible and distinctive is scaled up.
That is a necessity, because otherwise you would not notice these features on a tiny model from a distance.
The typical SoB features are the same. To make them distinctive models, more than just a female head is needed.
The better the quality of the model itself, the more subtle they can be, but at some point the model just looks boring.
As much as I like and love this design and drawing, I can't but find it... offf. Like something is missing. I know, of course, if they adopt this, I will end up getting used to it, but... meh. I don't think its necessary.
Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me. When women are decked out in heavy gothic armor they lose the feminine shape, thus you have to exagerrate it.. otherwise...you get that. Not a fan of the scaled/layered stomach armor either. The shoulders/backpack/helm all look spot on though. Hands/wrists look too much like standard marine armor, legs are okay...something kind of off there though.
Sqorgar wrote: In these other industries, on the cusp of becoming mainstream, they think that appealing to their typical audience (white, middle aged men) is holding them back from having a larger audience.
This is a misreading of the dynamic. It's very difficult for companies to stand still, particularly if you're seeking investment (or have investors to pay already), and your core customer base provides limited scope for growth; there's only so much money you can get out of people. Pandering to your core audience (which is teenage boys and young men, not middle aged ones) makes it difficult to generate new customers, so all you can do is change your product to widen its appeal and hope you don't break your existing base too badly, or stick with the existing base and plod along in slow decay. If done poorly, you lose your core base and fail to generate any new interest. If done well, you'll generate new customers and bring some of your old base with you - though some will inevitably abandon the product. That's life.
Basically these companies either go mainstream or die. It's not greed or virtue signalling or whatever - it's just business.
Marvel's net income from continuing operations has doubled over the past five years
... oops. I really should start checking claims made by people on Dakka, particularly if they're rolling out the old ME:A dev team conspiracy theories.
Thargrim wrote: Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me.
You act like that's the only example of armor that's not boob-plate, like that's the only way it could possibly be.
I would prefer something closer to a medieval knight's armor to that-- and platemail or scalemail can both definitely be made to look feminine. Take for example the Dancer of the Boreal Valley's Set from Dark Souls 3, Titania's armor from Fire Emblem, and so on. There's plenty of examples of "feminine" looking armors that don't have boob-cups. That piece of art is really just "make sisters armor like space marines", and isn't very inventive or creative. A more slender waist with thicker hips and a single curved bust, hinting at hte existence of breasts but not outwardly saying "here's my tits, y'all".
Again, this is not saying I'm pressuring GW to change the aesthetics. I'm okay with the direction that GW took Sisters in the form of Celestine and the Geminae. It's just your argument is terrible.
Thargrim wrote: Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me.
You act like that's the only example of armor that's not boob-plate, like that's the only way it could possibly be.
I would prefer something closer to a medieval knight's armor to that-- and platemail or scalemail can both definitely be made to look feminine. Take for example the Dancer of the Boreal Valley's Set from Dark Souls 3, Titania's armor from Fire Emblem, and so on. There's plenty of examples of "feminine" looking armors that don't have boob-cups. That piece of art is really just "make sisters armor like space marines", and isn't very inventive or creative.
I feel like the dancers set from dark souls seems more like something the sisters of silence should have had. I do like the legs though. It really does come down to individual taste, no matter what GW does some people will be disappointed. I personally basically want the old range/art style updated with modern proportions and crisp plastic detail. If they introduce a new unit, there is room there for a fresh design. But I kind of hope the battle sisters and overall style is like this:
Yodhrin wrote: To which the solution is, IMO, GW pulling the finger out and updating their range with more female human soldiers(and other things)
I have it on good authority that the vast bulk of Cadian infantry models were actually designed to rep Klinefelter (XXY) males or masculized / intersex females.
Thargrim wrote: I feel like the dancers set from dark souls seems more like something the sisters of silence should have had.
I prefer to pretend Sisters of Silence don't exist. To me, the Sisters of Battle are holy knights of the Imperial Church; a curved platemail look would very much suit them, just as their current aesthetic does.
Some of my GW-Cadian minatures are totally female. They just wear exactly the same kind of armor and clothes that everyone else does. They fight just as well or better or worse than the men. Hard to tell because all of them look the same from a distance. I don't care either way because they kill* for the emperor all the same.
*I prefer that my troops kill for the emperor and leave the dying for their enemies.
Sqorgar wrote: In these other industries, on the cusp of becoming mainstream, they think that appealing to their typical audience (white, middle aged men) is holding them back from having a larger audience.
This is a misreading of the dynamic. It's very difficult for companies to stand still, particularly if you're seeking investment (or have investors to pay already), and your core customer base provides limited scope for growth; there's only so much money you can get out of people. Pandering to your core audience (which is teenage boys and young men, not middle aged ones) makes it difficult to generate new customers, so all you can do is change your product to widen its appeal and hope you don't break your existing base too badly, or stick with the existing base and plod along in slow decay. If done poorly, you lose your core base and fail to generate any new interest. If done well, you'll generate new customers and bring some of your old base with you - though some will inevitably abandon the product. That's life.
Basically these companies either go mainstream or die. It's not greed or virtue signalling or whatever - it's just business.
See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be. You don't achieve success by chasing after markets that don't exist, or markets which won't continue. Meanwhile, you can do what GW has been doing and expanding the market by branching into new related products (board game, novels, cafes) that have a large overlap of interest and production. You can sell a board gamer Space Hulk and he might start playing 40k, but you can't sell a 10 year old girl a stuffed Space Marine and expect the same.
Take Nintendo, for example. They tried the blue ocean strategy with the Wii, and it worked! For a while. It became obvious that while the Wii sold gangbusters to a lot of non-gamers, the majority of them didn't actually buy any other games for it. They just liked Wii Sports. What initially appeared to be an expansion of the audience turned out to be a temporary blip, as these people didn't become long term customers, and were fickle and unpredictable (they abandoned Nintendo for Candy Crush without hesitation). Now, what does Nintendo make? It makes games for core gamers, and crap like Wii Music is nowhere to be found - but we have Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Breath of the Wild.
Marvel's net income from continuing operations has doubled over the past five years
... oops. I really should start checking claims made by people on Dakka, particularly if they're rolling out the old ME:A dev team conspiracy theories.
Superhero comics still suck.
Since a Marvel discussion is off topic for this thread, I was going to leave it be, but I can't let this personal insult slide. You want to check my claims? Here.
Melissia's claims are for Marvel Entertainment, which includes the movie part and all the profits made from toy licensing... from the movie part of Marvel. Marvel Comics, which we are talking about, had a terrible 2017. Here's an article from just a few days ago, over at ICv2. "The biggest problem in comic stores in 2017 was Marvel sales, which were dramatically lower". Marvel overships their comics, even sending retailers free comics that they didn't ask for, in order to buff up their numbers - but those comics aren't actually sold to customers and don't represent the actual market. Most accounts I've seen have shown a 30%-80% drop off on titles over a six month period, and Marvel's failures are hurting local comic book stores that rely on them.
Here's interview from 2016 with David Gabriel. There's a particularly noteworthy quote in there that caused a bit of a gakstorm at the time. Here's a rumor in September of Disney relocating Marvel Comics to Burbank so that they can keep a closer eye on them due to "rapidly declining sales". There's a real fear that Disney might stop publishing comics altogether, since the movie part of Marvel is successful while the comics part is an ongoing embarrassment and PR nightmare.
And if you think Superhero comics suck, I can provide a reading list that will change your mind.
Looking forward to some of the armor decoration and variety for plastic sob. This art right here for me hits the nail on the head for the "classic" sob and looking forward to seeing some of the bling and armor decoration variety in a similar vain to the level that is seen in the BA and SW kits.
For refrence here's pics of the BA sprew from GW webstore. In combination with the level of decoration if we can get similar if not the same content (with exceptions of weapon option limitations) on the sprews, enough bitz to build 10 SoB with options to have 1 superior with load-out options (chainsword, powersword, pistols and combi bolters), 2 specials or 1 special and 1 heavy.
Spoiler:
plenty of bitz for bolter sisters and full head options, enough for both with and without helmets
1 or 2 heavy weapons (heavy bolter, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer)
Flamer, Melta and Storm Bolter
Combi-bolters ; Flamer, Plasma, Melta, Crossbow, (superior specific storm bolter?)
pistols; Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, melta pistol, hand flamer
Chain sword, power sword, (power maul?)
plenty of other bitz, incense burners, purity seals, scrolls, grenades, pistol and knives in hands and holstered and such. At least that is my hopes for the base SoBBSS kit.
Galas wrote: As much as I like and love this design and drawing, I can't but find it... offf. Like something is missing. I know, of course, if they adopt this, I will end up getting used to it, but... meh. I don't think its necessary.
Spoiler:
[spoiler]
I feel like a raised chest (not boob plate, I'm thinking Samus Aran's power armor) would do that design a lot of good.
Thargrim wrote: Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me.
You act like that's the only example of armor that's not boob-plate, like that's the only way it could possibly be.
I would prefer something closer to a medieval knight's armor to that-- and platemail or scalemail can both definitely be made to look feminine. Take for example the Dancer of the Boreal Valley's Set from Dark Souls 3, Titania's armor from Fire Emblem, and so on. There's plenty of examples of "feminine" looking armors that don't have boob-cups. That piece of art is really just "make sisters armor like space marines", and isn't very inventive or creative. A more slender waist with thicker hips and a single curved bust, hinting at hte existence of breasts but not outwardly saying "here's my tits, y'all".
Again, this is not saying I'm pressuring GW to change the aesthetics. I'm okay with the direction that GW took Sisters in the form of Celestine and the Geminae. It's just your argument is terrible.
I LOVE Titania's design, one of the best in the series.
See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made.
Maybe 20 years ago, but the market has changed significantly in that time and is still evolving.
GW is a business and like other business they are trying to adapt to changing social structures and demands. The beauty of the human race is that we are always evolving and changing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel like a raised chest (not boob plate, I'm thinking Samus Aran's power armor) would do that design a lot of good.
The classic Samus Aran design is a really good one.
Yodhrin wrote: Some HUEG Cawl-esque inhuman Mechanicus monstrosity that just happens to have been a human female before becoming 97% bionic.
I'm curious about this one, Yodhrin - from a model design perspective, how would you see that working? The background side of things would be easy enough, but I wonder how it'd work on the model.
fox-light713 wrote: Looking forward to some of the armor decoration and variety for plastic sob. This art right here for me hits the nail on the head for the "classic" sob and looking forward to seeing some of the bling and armor decoration variety in a similar vain to the level that is seen in the BA and SW kits.
Spoiler:
Most of that design is great - just keep with a flat sole on the boot. I mean, we're not talking Varifocal levels of heel stupidity there, but was any required in the first place?
Sqorgar wrote: See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be.
So why did you say their core audience was white middle aged men in your last post? I'm struggling to pull your argument together at this point. This started as a discussion about the objections to boob plate - which I personally don't find satisfactory - and we've ended up in some strange rabbit hole where companies are simultaneously targeting middle aged men with their products whilst also not doing so because that market doesn't exist, and from that we draw the conclusion that "SJWs" are killing niche fiction.
Pull this back to boob plate for me.
personal insult
Where?
Melissia's claims are for Marvel Entertainment, which includes the movie part and all the profits made from toy licensing... from the movie part of Marvel. Marvel Comics, which we are talking about, had a terrible 2017.
The whole group is selling the same IP, and as far as I know they're using the same writers and artists etc., but while much of the group is in rude health the Comics arm is doing poorly. To you, that suggests "pandering to SJWs kills your business". I would suggest that's not the only reason comic sales are in decline, and considering the medium itself is probably 20 years out of date I'd suggest it's not even the primary reason. I can't remember the last time I bought a physical paper-and-ink book that wasn't an academic text.
Considering the same IP is being punted by the rest of the group, I'd perhaps suggest that abandonment of core audience in favour of a more generally palatable product (or "pandering to SJWs", if you prefer) isn't to blame at all for the health of Marvel Comics.
I kinda wish people would stop saying that SJW killed comic books as the data just doesn't support that hypothesis. Comics have been on a decline overall regardless of any diversity attempts.
Galas wrote: As much as I like and love this design and drawing, I can't but find it... offf. Like something is missing. I know, of course, if they adopt this, I will end up getting used to it, but... meh. I don't think its necessary.
Spoiler:
[spoiler]
Need much more detail/bling. A LOT more.
Thargrim wrote: Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me. When women are decked out in heavy gothic armor they lose the feminine shape, thus you have to exagerrate it..
Does Shadowsun look androgynous to you too? Should we "exaggerate her feminine shape"? Is there any circumstance where you feel some male model looks androgynous in armor, and we need to "exaggerate his masculine shape”.
Sqorgar wrote: See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be. You don't achieve success by chasing after markets that don't exist, or markets which won't continue.
I don't know worldwide but in France manga are massively outperforming comics, as far as I can tell there is no manga crisis at all, and manga managed perfectly to also target an audience that isn't “teenage boy and young men”.
If anything, I'd say Marvel's error is sticking to super-hero crap and multiverse crap. Way to get billions of variation on the same old story, it gets boring quickly.
That spoiled picture is pretty good, but there could be a compromise and do it like they did Neave and Angharad? Though, like its been mentioned earliwe, Celestine and the Geminae have the boob plate, so i doubt it is going anywhere.
Marvel is dying due to pandering, from the type of writers they hired to the type of books they tried to push to the decisions they made with franchise characters. I mean, Marvel drank the Kool-Aid, big time, and you can see it in everything they say and do. I say this as someone with decades of Iron Man comics, and Riri Williams is just about the worst thing I have ever seen - Bendis is a hack.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I've worked in the comics industry for over a decade and do know what I'm talking about, so let me fill you in. Marvel is facing some tough times, but sales on their so called "diversity books" are not the problem. Those books have sold well and continue to sell well. The trade paperbacks sell consistently well too. If you've heard differently then what you've heard isn't true. Marvel has large problems that have nothing to do with these books, including an aging fan base that is buying less and less, a market that prefers digital comics and trade paperbacks and is completely abandoning traditional individual issue purchase, a constant mandate to reboot their books over and over, a long growing public disinterest in traditional superhero comics and having to pander to a dedicated core of sniveling, entitled and often bigoted fans who refuse to even try anything new and throw tantrums any time anything changes at all.
Books like Ms. Marvel, Black Panther, Thor, Sam Wilson: Captain America, Devil Dinosaur and the Riri Williams Iron Man, regardless of their quality (and they are often among the highest quality superhero comics being currently published) are not Marvel's problem. These comics are actually selling constantly well by reaching new readers. These comics are forging a new audience for Marvel. Marvel is very pleased with the success of these titles, and plans to keep this approach, even while trying to figure out how to still hang onto the awful pile of entitlement and nastiness that likes to consider itself their core fan base.
Marvel is in no danger of dying, but they do have plenty of problems. That they aren't catering enough to ridiculously poorly behaved man-children isn't one of them. Take my word for it. As a person who makes comics for a living and works with other professionals who make comics for a living. I know what I'm talking about.
While I'm not saying you're wrong, it's hard to take your word for it.
I do understand the issues you're talking about. About 5 minutes on a comic forum will back you up.
Having said that, when I was in the US comics were still being read by my students, and it seemed about as common as it was when I was in school. Manga is everywhere though in US schools.
I want the breast armor of Sisters staying the same because I simply do not want new models looking different alongside my existing ones. I am perfectly fine with oversexed females with (appropriately sized) boobs on their armor in a universe of oversexed giant masculine male heroes. Aesthetically proportioned female chests don't bother me at all (I love my female Vanguard troopers from Sedition Wars)
HOWEVER-
Female Stormcast Eternals show that GW can do nice looking female armored models with a differently sculpted chest than the traditional breast-cup bullet traps.
I for one would be very happy to add to my metal Sisters army, as long as GW doesn't pull the traditional scale-creep or design change.
Lets have some speculation over what Sisters can bring to the game, though, rather than endless conversations about bewbs.
I for one would be very happy to add to my metal Sisters army, as long as GW doesn't pull the traditional scale-creep or design change..
Of all this things I've read in this thread this is the most unrealistic.
Inquisitor Greyfax is way bigger than a space marine and shes just a normal human. Though it just occured to me that I've never compared the Gemini to the metal seraphim but I'm pretty sure they're a decent bit bigger.
AegisGrimm wrote: I am perfectly fine with oversexed females with (appropriately sized) boobs on their armor in a universe of oversexed giant masculine male heroes.
It's all nice and good but which universe are you talking about? Because by that description it's surely not 40k, because damn marines aren't oversexed.
Sim-Life wrote: Of all this things I've read in this thread this is the most unrealistic.
Inquisitor Greyfax is way bigger than a space marine and shes just a normal human. Though it just occured to me that I've never compared the Gemini to the metal seraphim but I'm pretty sure they're a decent bit bigger.
The gemini are almost identical to the old seraphim in scale, aside from the improved jump packs and scroll-stands.
Greyfax would actually be slightly shorter than the old 3rd ed model she is derived from if not for the help of her power-heels.
AegisGrimm wrote: I am perfectly fine with oversexed females with (appropriately sized) boobs on their armor in a universe of oversexed giant masculine male heroes.
It's all nice and good but which universe are you talking about? Because by that description it's surely not 40k, because damn marines aren't oversexed.
Sure they are. In the comic book style fashion of giant manly men with heroic proportions. Maybe not as much as Stormcast and some Blood Angels with sculpted muscle armor, but modern marines are the very epitome of giant male supermen, even if the originals were normal human convicts and gangers in power armor.
Which I am perfectly fine with, I like Space Marines as much as Sisters of Battle and Stormcast. I am a fan of all sorts of armored heroic figures.
On other thoughts, what do Sisters need to gain to fight alongside other 8th edition armies? I'd like a reimagined Penitent Engine-style unit, as I always liked the thought of the originals, but hated the horrible models (especially the tiny ankles).
Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.
Sqorgar wrote: See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be.
So why did you say their core audience was white middle aged men in your last post?
Because I was talking about different industries. Miniature gaming is overwhelmingly middle aged men, while comic books, video games, Magic the Gathering, and the other "nerd industries on the cusp of becoming mainstream" have audiences that are teenage boys and young men. Miniature gaming is not on the cusp of becoming mainstream.
I'm struggling to pull your argument together at this point. This started as a discussion about the objections to boob plate - which I personally don't find satisfactory - and we've ended up in some strange rabbit hole where companies are simultaneously targeting middle aged men with their products whilst also not doing so because that market doesn't exist, and from that we draw the conclusion that "SJWs" are killing niche fiction.
I didn't use the term "SJWs" and won't. If you can't make an argument without labeling your opponent, then you can't make an argument. You should avoid using it too, especially when you are trying characterize my argument using it.
Pull this back to boob plate for me.
The reason people are against boob armor is based on a moral supposition that boob armor is offensive to women, and because things like boob armor and sexualized character designs are offputting to women, Warhammer has fewer women interested in it. Therefore, if we change the things that are offputting to women, we'll get the ladies. That's the argument behind all of the diversity pushes, that more representation will lead to a larger, more diverse audience, and it is provably false in every single industry it has been tried in.
And this is the core argument. You'll get people saying that it isn't practical and that real women on the battlefield don't have boob plate, but that's just them trying to wrap a subjective argument in a (weaker) objective one. It takes about three seconds to realize that they are being extremely selective about which things they find offensive, and it is all based around the sexualization of the female form (massive ornate pauldrons that would weight 50 lbs each? Swords so large that no mortal could swing them? Men with 0% body fat, showing a physique you only find on dehydrated body builders? Okay). It'd be better if they were at least honest about that much, because then every boob armor discussion wouldn't devolve into detailed arguments about the minutiae of 16th century combat tactics.
The whole group is selling the same IP, and as far as I know they're using the same writers and artists etc., but while much of the group is in rude health the Comics arm is doing poorly. To you, that suggests "pandering to SJWs kills your business". I would suggest that's not the only reason comic sales are in decline, and considering the medium itself is probably 20 years out of date I'd suggest it's not even the primary reason. I can't remember the last time I bought a physical paper-and-ink book that wasn't an academic text.
Considering the same IP is being punted by the rest of the group, I'd perhaps suggest that abandonment of core audience in favour of a more generally palatable product (or "pandering to SJWs", if you prefer) isn't to blame at all for the health of Marvel Comics.
So what you are saying is "pandering to SJWs"? No, that's not what I'm saying at all (and there you go again trying to force me to use certain labels). That implies a level of cynical detachment, like Marvel doesn't care one way or another and is just following a market fad. I wouldn't characterize it that way. Marvel isn't pandering. They drank the Kool-Aid. Marvel is filled with, excuse the pun, "true believers".
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I don't know worldwide but in France manga are massively outperforming comics, as far as I can tell there is no manga crisis at all, and manga managed perfectly to also target an audience that isn't “teenage boy and young men”.
This is a weird case of selection bias. In Japan, manga is predominantly for teenage boys (I say this, having lived in Japan). Here's a list of top selling manga in japan, first half of 2016. You have to go pretty far down on that list until you find something targeting anybody else. There are other niches, shoujo probably being the biggest. However, manga has not been adopted by foreign countries with the same demographics and interests, or even the same format (manga is published in weekly serials before being collected into independent volumes in Japan). Since localizing manga is considerably cheaper than creating it and running it in a weekly magazine, this means that the manga we general get in the West is not representative of what is mainstream in Japan. Manga would not be financially viable if created specifically to the desires of Westerners.
jake wrote:You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I've worked in the comics industry for over a decade and do know what I'm talking about, so let me fill you in. Marvel is facing some tough times, but sales on their so called "diversity books" are not the problem. Those books have sold well and continue to sell well. The trade paperbacks sell consistently well too. If you've heard differently then what you've heard isn't true. Marvel has large problems that have nothing to do with these books, including an aging fan base that is buying less and less, a market that prefers digital comics and trade paperbacks and is completely abandoning traditional individual issue purchase, a constant mandate to reboot their books over and over, a long growing public disinterest in traditional superhero comics and having to pander to a dedicated core of sniveling, entitled and often bigoted fans who refuse to even try anything new and throw tantrums any time anything changes at all.
I think your last sentence here shows your bias a little too obviously. I linked to several articles, carefully selected from unbiased sources, that show that Marvel is having sales problems in a big way, and that comic book retailers themselves have told Marvel, to their face, that the diversity push is alienating fans and killing sales. If you want to dispute this, it would go a long way providing your own unbiased sources rather than baseless speculation (and maybe dial back the petty resentment a bit).
That they aren't catering enough to ridiculously poorly behaved man-children isn't one of them. Take my word for it. As a person who makes comics for a living and works with other professionals who make comics for a living. I know what I'm talking about.
I can't imagine you are particularly successful at making comics, if you continually describe your audience as "sniveling, entitled and often bigoted fans" and "ridiculously poorly behaved man-children". As I said above, if you can't make an argument without labeling your opponent, you can't make an argument.
At this point, I'm actually praying for a thread lock. We get 2-3 posts per page of actual SoB speculation/wishlisting (i.e. on-topic) and the rest is just the same old bull argument.
Melissia wrote: Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.
I would be perfectly fine with them fixing the Exorcist, PenEngine and Repentia rules. Models are fine. Additional generic HQ's, Palatine and Seraphim leader would be fantastic. Roll out a pshield/maul/spear/sword troop choice, give Celestians a real purpose, I would be fine if they got an anti-psyker role. But at least give them wargear options like IA: Celestian Command Squads had and tack in either a buff to AoF or an anti-psyker rule for Celestians. Cathedral tank
EnTyme wrote: At this point, I'm actually praying for a thread lock. We get 2-3 posts per page of actual SoB speculation/wishlisting (i.e. on-topic) and the rest is just the same old bull argument.
EnTyme wrote:At this point, I'm actually praying for a thread lock. We get 2-3 posts per page of actual SoB speculation/wishlisting (i.e. on-topic) and the rest is just the same old bull argument.
Word, as much as I enjoy engaging in circular logic with both sides, can we at least get back to the joyous news?
Celestine and the Gemini are what "modern" sisters should look like. I think we can all agree that's probably the look that they're going for. but then again probably not, knowing the ridiculous viritrol that's been going on since this thread started.....FROM BOTH SIDES!!!!!!!
I want boob plate armour on my Sisters of Battle for the same reason I like nipples on the Sanguinary Guard and Batman's suit. Because it looks good. The female form is the most beautiful thing ever created, so why are people offended by it?
I've asked several of my female friends if the think the image of a Sister of Battle is offensive. They have all said that they don't find it overly sexualized in any way, and many found it to look "bad ass".
Clearly there are people firmly planted in both camps and you will never make everyone happy. So the only thing you can do is make it look actually aesthetically pleasing, which they currently are. So why change what ain't broken?
Yodhrin wrote: Some HUEG Cawl-esque inhuman Mechanicus monstrosity that just happens to have been a human female before becoming 97% bionic.
I'm curious about this one, Yodhrin - from a model design perspective, how would you see that working? The background side of things would be easy enough, but I wonder how it'd work on the model.
It wouldn't? That would be sort of the point, it would be the opposite thematic extreme to the overtly female Sisters style, literally just the same pile of metal and rancid old robes as every other long-lived techpriest, but the brain in that particular jar just happened to be born female. I mean, you can do that now yourself, I have with one of my INQ28 Secutors, it'd just be something interesting to have an "Official" stamp on with a "proper" GW character. My point was more that 40K already has room for(and, indeed, already should feature based on its own fiction) a full gamut of non-white-male models in a variety of roles, and the only problem with Sisters is that right now they are "women in 40K" because there are so few other models of women, and I think it would be more productive to focus on rectifying the latter than on changing the former to be more "everywoman-ish" in design terms so they have broader appeal.
Melissia wrote: Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.
Here I'd disagree. I feel like Sisters are a pretty complete range(if their background is fully realised) and I like that they retain the old style of Imperial armies that shared STC weapons and vehicles with some minor visual tweaks for different patterns, rather than every Imperial subfaction getting so much "special" stuff they barely feel related. They'll probably do a CC variant of Seraphim just because it's a convenient dual-kit concept, but beyond that I'll break ranks and say I'd much rather GW used any "leftover" design & production budget after giving us modern versions of the existing SoB range on producing lots of Ecclesiarchy support rather than on stretching the basic Sisters concept to the point you end up with our version of Centurions. And TBH I like Rhinos, I hate that Skitarii don't get access to them(and Chimeras, and Russ) as they should have because they got their own newshiny designs and worry if they give Sisters their own newshiny vehicles we'd lose access to stuff that has apparently been rebranded as Marine-only.
I have asked for a thread lock, and I'd do so again. This thread is 90% off topic, and comments by a lot of posters have seriously harmed my views of them. At this point it's just disheartening.
Yeah, I would be happy with a Seraphim close combat loadout, despite it being so marine-derivative. And like I said before, a plastic penitent engine would be sweet.
I remember seeing a piece of artwork a while back that had a Seraphim wielding a spear. I'm a fan of the idea. Although they'd need to be quite a bit better than the state that Assault Marines currently are in. Roughrider style lances with the ability to pull out and charge in the same turn would be pretty cool. Perhaps some way of dealing with Overwatch too. They shouldn't be able to beat most dedicated melee units in prolonged combats, but dealing with backline heavy infantry and artillery units should be their prey.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, I would be happy with a Seraphim close combat loadout, despite it being so marine-derivative. And like I said before, a plastic penitent engine would be sweet.
I'd go with pistol profiles in close combat with Seraphim.
Yodhrin wrote: Some HUEG Cawl-esque inhuman Mechanicus monstrosity that just happens to have been a human female before becoming 97% bionic.
I'm curious about this one, Yodhrin - from a model design perspective, how would you see that working? The background side of things would be easy enough, but I wonder how it'd work on the model.
It wouldn't? That would be sort of the point, it would be the opposite thematic extreme to the overtly female Sisters style, literally just the same pile of metal and rancid old robes as every other long-lived techpriest, but the brain in that particular jar just happened to be born female. I mean, you can do that now yourself, I have with one of my INQ28 Secutors, it'd just be something interesting to have an "Official" stamp on with a "proper" GW character. My point was more that 40K already has room for(and, indeed, already should feature based on its own fiction) a full gamut of non-white-male models in a variety of roles, and the only problem with Sisters is that right now they are "women in 40K" because there are so few other models of women, and I think it would be more productive to focus on rectifying the latter than on changing the former to be more "everywoman-ish" in design terms so they have broader appeal.
The new Van Saar, and a lot of the newer Tau kits do this perfectly IMO. I agree wholeheartedly.
Melissia wrote: Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.
Here I'd disagree. I feel like Sisters are a pretty complete range(if their background is fully realised) and I like that they retain the old style of Imperial armies that shared STC weapons and vehicles with some minor visual tweaks for different patterns, rather than every Imperial subfaction getting so much "special" stuff they barely feel related. They'll probably do a CC variant of Seraphim just because it's a convenient dual-kit concept, but beyond that I'll break ranks and say I'd much rather GW used any "leftover" design & production budget after giving us modern versions of the existing SoB range on producing lots of Ecclesiarchy support rather than on stretching the basic Sisters concept to the point you end up with our version of Centurions. And TBH I like Rhinos, I hate that Skitarii don't get access to them(and Chimeras, and Russ) as they should have because they got their own newshiny designs and worry if they give Sisters their own newshiny vehicles we'd lose access to stuff that has apparently been rebranded as Marine-only.
I think Imperial units should largely remain STC, but if there is one thing the Imperial range shows us, it is that STC equipment can still be dressed up with different aesthetics. The working parts of a Vostroyan lasgun will be from an STC template held by a FW somewhere, but they are given a stock and body made to a much higher level of craftsmanship than most other lasguns are by the foundries of Vostroya. Hence they are recognisably lasguns, but look different and cool.
I think Sisters gear should be like this, so they should get Rhinos, but with more effort put into them than just sharing the Marine kit. To be fair, the ones made using the sprue from the Immolator do this nicely from my perspective. I don't think this restricts them from getting new stuff either though, as combining STC gear together is generally considered ok, especially if combined into a melee weapon. In addition, "non-functional" aesthetic modifications can be added to STC designs to make acceptable different models with different rules. In line with this, I can see the Sisters getting gear like hand-flamers attached to spears (that any Imperial force could theoretically make, but doesn't see the doctrinal need for), or a Baneblade chassis modified into a great cathedral (probably based on the Stormlord). It would have different rules to represent the effect the Cathedral has on the nearby Sisters, and probably some extra weapons in the building, but from the perspective of the Mechanicus, sticking a building on top of a Stormlord is not modifying the underlying machinery. It is the same principle as sticking a cathedral atop the Emperor-class titans.
In a probably vain effort to drag this thread away from whether or not Sororitas power armor shows off the breast too much, let's talk about what we can reasonably expect from GW in a Sister of Battle release.
Going back over all the "major" releases in the last year, we have three 40K and 3 AOS releases:
40K Releases
Primaris Space Marines: 4 Clampack Characters, 5 Multi-part Unit Kits, and two Vehicles (and a whole bunch of easy to build and Dark Imperium Models I'm ignoring)
Death Guard: 1 Centerpiece Character, 7 Clampack Characters, 3 Multi-part Unit Kits, and 3 Vehicles (and a whole bunch of easy to build and Dark Imperium Models I'm ignoring, expect for the Myphitic Blight-hauler)
Adeptus Custodes: 1 Clampack Character, 3 Multi-Part Unit Kits that include options to make characters from the kit, that added to one existing Kit of the same nature
Age of Sigmar Releases
Kharadron Overlords: 4 Clampack Characters, 2 Multi-Part Unit Kits, 1 Multi-Unit Kit, and 3 Vehicles
Nurgle Supplementary Release: 1 Centerpiece Character, 3 Clampack Characters, 1 Multi-part Unit Kit with Character Option, 1 Muti-part Unit Kit, and 1 Terrain Kit
Daughters of Khaine: 1 Centerpiece Character, and Two Multi-Unit Kits to supplement, that added to existing Multi-Unit Kit and second Unit Kit
What does this tell us? If GW sees SOB as a major release, we can expect :
4+ Clampack Character models just like Primaries, Death Guard, and Kharadron Overlords, the three larges releases
3 Multipart Unit Kits that may be for multi-units or may include character upgrade bits
2-3 Vehicle Kits
I'll leave it to you all to comment on my analysis.
I'd rather have the dual pistol seraphim be the assault variant and allow them to take boltguns, storm bolters and a special weapon or two for a gunner loadut.
Sororitas vehicles should, I think, look like standard versions that were built to the same specifications as any other STC vehicle but have been decorated after delivery by the sisters themselves. The Mechanicus are in charge of actually making things and they might not care enough for the Ecclesiarchy to modify perfectly fine templates.
The main overhaul I see SoB needing would be an extra tank, maybe just a predator really, and an expanded list of special and heavy weapons. They might be primarily about city fighting and sacred fire but surely the massive nonsense going on in the 40K galaxy at this point in time would be enough to get whoever's in charge of purchases to broaden their horizons just a tad. If nothing else, there's no reason for the Ecclesiarchy to trust Guilliman and his new batch of monster soldiers so they might very well want a little insurance. Maybe they'll even start nearly absorbing bits of the Navy with the more pious ships swearing to support the Sororitas more often, creating a sort of Legions: The Sequel situation with SoB commanders gaining a broad range of military forces, much to the concern of Guilliman (further increasing tensions).
Canoness Kit.
Priest Kit?
Imagifier Kit?
New Soritas HQ Option. [Mini Canoness with re-roll 1's to wound? Flying Canoness? Some independent Sister Superior type option?]
3 Kits.
Battle Sisters Kit.
Retributors Kit.
Seraphim Kit.
2-3 Vehicles.
New Exorcist Kit. Some other new Vehicle we never asked for it. Some sort of new Predator style kit that acts as a sister MBT. Probably with more fire.
Canoness Kit.
Priest Kit?
Imagifier Kit?
New Soritas HQ Option. [Mini Canoness with re-roll 1's to wound? Flying Canoness? Some independent Sister Superior type option?]
3 Kits.
Battle Sisters Kit.
Retributors Kit.
Seraphim Kit.
2-3 Vehicles.
New Exorcist Kit. Some other new Vehicle we never asked for it. Some sort of new Predator style kit that acts as a sister MBT. Probably with more fire.
A lot of the old command squad type characters are single clam packs these days.
I think they could do the dominion/retrbuator squads as one box. 5 sisters, and 2xHB/HF/MM/SB/MG/F. Combi/CC toys for the superior.
Battle Sister box (10 sisters, one of each special, 1-2 of the heavies.)
Seraphim/Celestion box.
Repentia
Rhino/immolator
Exorcist/new tank
Pen engine.
I think that would cover most (all?) of the current range. It’s not like GW needs to add new options just to get old players to pick up new boxes. Just the plastic re-vamp should be enough to clear the shelves.
You have official art of SoB with spears and shiels thought
Spoiler:
And of course this is personal opinion but I would hate for all imperial factions to have all the same vehicles just with little tweaks. Thats something the Imperium doesnt needs, even more homogeneization. Yeah you have Adeptus Mechanicus the faction that builds all the vehicles of the imperium and keeps the good stuff for them... and they should use rhinos, chimeras, leman russes, etc... instead of crazy robots and proper Admech things? Meh. So boring.
You have official art of SoB with spears and shiels thought
Spoiler:
I'd really like a unit armed that way. Would be awesome!
And of course this is personal opinion but I would hate for all imperial factions to have all the same vehicles just with little tweaks. Thats something the Imperium doesnt needs, even more homogeneization. Yeah you have Adeptus Mechanicus the faction that builds all the vehicles of the imperium and keeps the good stuff for them... and they should use rhinos, chimeras, leman russes, etc... instead of crazy robots and proper Admech things? Meh. So boring.
Nah, the Ad Mech should have Rhinos, Chimeras, Leman Russes.... AND all the crazy robots and things They are Ad Mech. Also, their "standard" stuff could be better than everyone elses, with Ad Mech unique options, like repair rigs (with an Ad Mech vehicle upgrade sprue).
Looks more like it was intended to be a Living Saint, but hell yeah I could get behind a Valkyrie-esque unit of power-spear wielders as an alt-build of the Seraphim.
Yodhrin wrote: Some HUEG Cawl-esque inhuman Mechanicus monstrosity that just happens to have been a human female before becoming 97% bionic.
I'm curious about this one, Yodhrin - from a model design perspective, how would you see that working? The background side of things would be easy enough, but I wonder how it'd work on the model.
It wouldn't? That would be sort of the point, it would be the opposite thematic extreme to the overtly female Sisters style, literally just the same pile of metal and rancid old robes as every other long-lived techpriest, but the brain in that particular jar just happened to be born female. I mean, you can do that now yourself, I have with one of my INQ28 Secutors, it'd just be something interesting to have an "Official" stamp on with a "proper" GW character. My point was more that 40K already has room for(and, indeed, already should feature based on its own fiction) a full gamut of non-white-male models in a variety of roles, and the only problem with Sisters is that right now they are "women in 40K" because there are so few other models of women, and I think it would be more productive to focus on rectifying the latter than on changing the former to be more "everywoman-ish" in design terms so they have broader appeal.
The new Van Saar, and a lot of the newer Tau kits do this perfectly IMO. I agree wholeheartedly.
Melissia wrote: Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.
Here I'd disagree. I feel like Sisters are a pretty complete range(if their background is fully realised) and I like that they retain the old style of Imperial armies that shared STC weapons and vehicles with some minor visual tweaks for different patterns, rather than every Imperial subfaction getting so much "special" stuff they barely feel related. They'll probably do a CC variant of Seraphim just because it's a convenient dual-kit concept, but beyond that I'll break ranks and say I'd much rather GW used any "leftover" design & production budget after giving us modern versions of the existing SoB range on producing lots of Ecclesiarchy support rather than on stretching the basic Sisters concept to the point you end up with our version of Centurions. And TBH I like Rhinos, I hate that Skitarii don't get access to them(and Chimeras, and Russ) as they should have because they got their own newshiny designs and worry if they give Sisters their own newshiny vehicles we'd lose access to stuff that has apparently been rebranded as Marine-only.
I think Imperial units should largely remain STC, but if there is one thing the Imperial range shows us, it is that STC equipment can still be dressed up with different aesthetics. The working parts of a Vostroyan lasgun will be from an STC template held by a FW somewhere, but they are given a stock and body made to a much higher level of craftsmanship than most other lasguns are by the foundries of Vostroya. Hence they are recognisably lasguns, but look different and cool.
I think Sisters gear should be like this, so they should get Rhinos, but with more effort put into them than just sharing the Marine kit. To be fair, the ones made using the sprue from the Immolator do this nicely from my perspective. I don't think this restricts them from getting new stuff either though, as combining STC gear together is generally considered ok, especially if combined into a melee weapon. In addition, "non-functional" aesthetic modifications can be added to STC designs to make acceptable different models with different rules. In line with this, I can see the Sisters getting gear like hand-flamers attached to spears (that any Imperial force could theoretically make, but doesn't see the doctrinal need for), or a Baneblade chassis modified into a great cathedral (probably based on the Stormlord). It would have different rules to represent the effect the Cathedral has on the nearby Sisters, and probably some extra weapons in the building, but from the perspective of the Mechanicus, sticking a building on top of a Stormlord is not modifying the underlying machinery. It is the same principle as sticking a cathedral atop the Emperor-class titans.
Oh aye, I have no issue with giving their gear a distinct aesthetic(to an extent), I meant more that given the way GW handles releases nowadays if they do make new plastic vehicle kits that are Sisters-only, that may well come at the expense of access to STC designs like the Rhino like you saw with Skitarii, who should have had access to a wide range of Imperial vehicles based on the prior background but ended up getting rules for the newshiny vehicles only, I assume because GW wanted to ensure people were buying the newshiny kits rather than repurposing old or secondhand Marine & IG vehicles. It's less likely to happen with Sisters since although it's ancient they do, unlike Skitarii, have an existing range of models & rules that do have access to STC vehicles, but hey like HMBC says, Sisters fans have to find something to complain/worry about
As for the discussion on what to expect release-wise; I think it depends entirely on which of the two more obvious directions they choose to go. If we get Codex: Sisters of Battle No Boys Allowed Tour, I would set my expectations(and, indeed, hopes, since again I'd rather we didn't get to the stage of whatever the Sisters equivalent of the Centurion would end up being) more along the lines of Custodes, maybe a stretch to GSC territory. Say a clampack, a handful of infantry boxes(minimum would be three - "Battle Sisters" box that could build line Sisters, Retributors, Dominions, and Celestians if they don't get an alt-build; Seraphim, with alt-built natch; Repentia) with options for minor characters like Palatines and Imagifiers in those boxes, a unique vehicle(Penitent Engine) and a multikit/rebox based on an existing vehicle(Rhino with extra sprues to make Immolator and Exorcist).
If they tend more towards Codex: Ecclesiarchy In All But Name, I think that's when you'd see a more extensive release in terms of clampacks as you could bring in the non-Militant orders, Priests and so on, and I could see that expanding to five or six infantry boxes(as above but with separate Celestians with an alt-build, maybe Arcos, maybe Frateris Militia as well or at least hopefully rules for them with an instruction to just use the by-then released House Cawdor minis) and also maybe something like Melissa was asking for, a new unique "mobile cathedral" style superheavy vehicle. If they go whole-hog they might even tap the FW background and produce a plastic Avenger Strike Fighter(at least I hope that's what they'd do, we don't need any more dilution of the Imperium's again supposedly STC air power with another "unique" - and, typically, derpy as feth - design).
I know I'm not typical but TBH I'd prefer the latter option, I like that emphasis on the Sisters as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy specifically rather than a distinct faction.
Galas wrote: -snip-
And of course this is personal opinion but I would hate for all imperial factions to have all the same vehicles just with little tweaks. Thats something the Imperium doesnt needs, even more homogeneization. Yeah you have Adeptus Mechanicus the faction that builds all the vehicles of the imperium and keeps the good stuff for them... and they should use rhinos, chimeras, leman russes, etc... instead of crazy robots and proper Admech things? Meh. So boring.
You might think it's "boring", but that's the background. Not that they *only* use those things, but that they do use the more "special" versions of them in addition to the genuinely esoteric stuff. By all means, make the Skitarii Cataphractii Leman Russ tanks be the wierdy-beardy volkite versions, their Predators the stable-plasma and conversion beamer variants, their Rhinos the open-topped quad-HB Iron Fist variant etc, and similarly encrust the Sisters versions of the Rhino kits in the same ludicrous gothic detailing as their personal arms & armour and do really cool looking versions of the Repressor and Immolator and Exorcist etc, but the common design language of the STC equipment is supposed to be what ties the Imperial factions together and the more you snowflake their model ranges the less they even look like they're part of the same race let alone society.
I think they should get some variation of the predator or Leman Russ. Totally agree about Admech tho, they have a severe lack of transports which they have pretty good ones in 30k.
Sisters stuff should be OTT gothic decorations. it wouldn't take much to have a set of upgrade sprue to "pimp" out units/vehicles.
Racerguy180 wrote: I think they should get some variation of the predator or Leman Russ. Totally agree about Admech tho, they have a severe lack of transports which they have pretty good ones in 30k.
Sisters stuff should be OTT gothic decorations. it wouldn't take much to have a set of upgrade sprue to "pimp" out units/vehicles.
I know which Predator variant would most suit the SoB, but it is the variant that least addresses their need for long-range firepower
I strongly suspect the Immolator kit will get a rebox, and be pushed as a SOB Rhino/Immolator dual-build kit.
I think a plastic Exorcist is likely, possibly with an alt build as an AA variant - whether it keeps the crazy pipe organ aesthetic (but, because it is in plastic, is buildable) is anyone's guess.
A plastic Pentent Engine kit would be cool - scale-wise, is the PE roughly Killa Kan size or more Dreadnought size? If the former, might we see a 3-pack?
A Seraphim kit is definite, though I think we'll see a slight jump pack redesign to line up with the Geminae. Box should include twin BP, twin Hand Flamer and twin Inferno Pistol options, along with CCW weapons for the Sister Superior. I don't think we'll see an alt-build on this kit, but I would imagine the unit might get to use their pistols as CCW in the Fight phase. Not certain of that though.
A standard Battle Sister Squad box seems sensible, and I like the idea of having the parts for an Imagifer in there too, similar to the Vexilia in the Custodes squad - that'd be a smart move. Ideally, 5 Sisters to a sprue, with 2 sprues in the tac box. Second sprue with one of each special & heavy on (assuming SB/MG/Flamer for special, HB/MM/HF for heavy). Include one in the standard box, then release a second box with one sprue of SoBs and 4 of these sprues (ideally, though I could see GW just doing 2) as a Retributor/Dominion box.
I'm not sure what to do with Celestians at this time - are they just a repaint of standard Sisters as an Elites choice, or do they need their own kit?
I imagine Repentia will see a kit - not sure how many to a box, though.
Clampacks for a Canoness, Dialogus, Hospitalier, maybe a new version of Uriah Jacobus.
If new units are added, this could expand, but I think this is the MVP for the range.
As an aside, I noticed a couple of people referencing multi-unit kits - while we've seen a lot of those in AoS, I don't think they're that common in 40k, so I doubt we'll see them in the SoB release.
Racerguy180 wrote: I think they should get some variation of the predator or Leman Russ. Totally agree about Admech tho, they have a severe lack of transports which they have pretty good ones in 30k.
Sisters stuff should be OTT gothic decorations. it wouldn't take much to have a set of upgrade sprue to "pimp" out units/vehicles.
I know which Predator variant would most suit the SoB, but it is the variant that least addresses their need for long-range firepower
Combine with this kind of detailing:
and you would get a very SoB Predator.
This is almost exactly what I was thinking. I would buy one in a heartbeat.
My Salamanders love their Infernus, but you'd kinda imagine it would have more than 8" range.
Nobody complaining about boobplate is offended by the female form .
Going by what someone else said above, I don't think you'd have this argument popping up over and over and over if there were more female models in 40K as a whole--OK, Space Marines are of course their own thing, but is there any particular reason why AM, Mechanicus, Genestealer Cults, Chaos Cultists, etc all need to be overwhelmingly sausage parties? I can understand the worry that making the hyper-gothic pyromaniac zealot space nuns too sensibly designed eliminates their aesthetic appeal, but I can also understand the frustration at "Men can look like anything in this setting, but women must look attractive even at the expense of practicality." that you repeatedly see throughout geek media as a whole.
It's the sort of tension that's inevitable when one faction carries the majority of female representation in the setting. Having more unglamorous but recognisably female models in the range might ease the burden a bit?
Dysartes wrote:I strongly suspect the Immolator kit will get a rebox, and be pushed as a SOB Rhino/Immolator dual-build kit.
I think a plastic Exorcist is likely, possibly with an alt build as an AA variant - whether it keeps the crazy pipe organ aesthetic (but, because it is in plastic, is buildable) is anyone's guess.
I certainly hope so! I love the aesthetic of that kit, for me it neatly sums up 40k in one model The only reason I don't own one is the horrific lump of metal, and the fact the supporting army would also be expensive metal.
A plastic Pentent Engine kit would be cool - scale-wise, is the PE roughly Killa Kan size or more Dreadnought size? If the former, might we see a 3-pack?
The legs look very similar to Sentinel legs. I've not ever seen one in the flesh, but I reckon somewhere between a Sentinel and an Ironstrider, probably a tall Sentinel. I wouldn't be surprised if a re-done plastic version got a bit larger and more imposing though, maybe towards ironstrider size. I'd like a three pack, but both the Sentinel and Ironstrider are single models by default.
A Seraphim kit is definite, though I think we'll see a slight jump pack redesign to line up with the Geminae. Box should include twin BP, twin Hand Flamer and twin Inferno Pistol options, along with CCW weapons for the Sister Superior. I don't think we'll see an alt-build on this kit, but I would imagine the unit might get to use their pistols as CCW in the Fight phase. Not certain of that though.
A standard Battle Sister Squad box seems sensible, and I like the idea of having the parts for an Imagifer in there too, similar to the Vexilia in the Custodes squad - that'd be a smart move. Ideally, 5 Sisters to a sprue, with 2 sprues in the tac box. Second sprue with one of each special & heavy on (assuming SB/MG/Flamer for special, HB/MM/HF for heavy). Include one in the standard box, then release a second box with one sprue of SoBs and 4 of these sprues (ideally, though I could see GW just doing 2) as a Retributor/Dominion box.
I'm not sure what to do with Celestians at this time - are they just a repaint of standard Sisters as an Elites choice, or do they need their own kit?
I imagine Repentia will see a kit - not sure how many to a box, though.
Clampacks for a Canoness, Dialogus, Hospitalier, maybe a new version of Uriah Jacobus.
The lowest-hanging fruit, after the Canoness, is a standard Priest. It can be used in three armies, including the popular Astra Militarum codex, and is a great support character with only horribly outdated models in the official range. If they don't do a clampack Priest or two, I'll be very surprised! They could also do a kit for Death Cult assassins, and Flagellants perhaps. Again, this does double-duty for Inquisition lists.
I think Celestians will likely get a kit too, although it may not be immediate. They should make use of the artwork we have available to do something really cool with Celestians. I like the idea of a dual-build kit with a "standard" bolter elite battle-sister squad, and a melee spear-and-shield squad. Seeing as the past few versions of the Celestian's rules had them with close combat buffs, but no equipment to use them, this doesn't seem far-fetched.
If new units are added, this could expand, but I think this is the MVP for the range.
As an aside, I noticed a couple of people referencing multi-unit kits - while we've seen a lot of those in AoS, I don't think they're that common in 40k, so I doubt we'll see them in the SoB release.
Racerguy180 wrote: I think they should get some variation of the predator or Leman Russ. Totally agree about Admech tho, they have a severe lack of transports which they have pretty good ones in 30k.
Sisters stuff should be OTT gothic decorations. it wouldn't take much to have a set of upgrade sprue to "pimp" out units/vehicles.
I know which Predator variant would most suit the SoB, but it is the variant that least addresses their need for long-range firepower
Spoiler:
Combine with this kind of detailing:
Spoiler:
and you would get a very SoB Predator.
This is almost exactly what I was thinking. I would buy one in a heartbeat.
My Salamanders love their Infernus, but you'd kinda imagine it would have more than 8" range.
At least the Magna-cannon has a bit more range. I think the Flamestorm cannon should have the same range as a Hellhound Inferno cannon to be honest. Vehicle-mounted flamethrowers have a scarily long range in reality, at least compared to man-portable designs.
Nobody complaining about boobplate is offended by the female form .
Going by what someone else said above, I don't think you'd have this argument popping up over and over and over if there were more female models in 40K as a whole--OK, Space Marines are of course their own thing, but is there any particular reason why AM, Mechanicus, Genestealer Cults, Chaos Cultists, etc all need to be overwhelmingly sausage parties? I can understand the worry that making the hyper-gothic pyromaniac zealot space nuns too sensibly designed eliminates their aesthetic appeal, but I can also understand the frustration at "Men can look like anything in this setting, but women must look attractive even at the expense of practicality." that you repeatedly see throughout geek media as a whole.
It's the sort of tension that's inevitable when one faction carries the majority of female representation in the setting. Having more unglamorous but recognisably female models in the range might ease the burden a bit?
I agree wholeheartedly with this, and it is why I am hopeful the mixed Van Saar and Tau releases are a template for future humanoid releases.
.
. They are human beings, not a bunch of cells inside an organism that have begun to multiply uncontrollably. It's science, bitch!
.
argument.
