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Plastic Adepta Sororitas?

That is awesome!

I have nothing else to say about this. Neither should you. This is a good thing, don't ruin it.

Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me. When women are decked out in heavy gothic armor they lose the feminine shape, thus you have to exagerrate it.. otherwise...you get that. Not a fan of the scaled/layered stomach armor either. The shoulders/backpack/helm all look spot on though. Hands/wrists look too much like standard marine armor, legs are okay...something kind of off there though.

 Sqorgar wrote:
In these other industries, on the cusp of becoming mainstream, they think that appealing to their typical audience (white, middle aged men) is holding them back from having a larger audience.

This is a misreading of the dynamic. It's very difficult for companies to stand still, particularly if you're seeking investment (or have investors to pay already), and your core customer base provides limited scope for growth; there's only so much money you can get out of people. Pandering to your core audience (which is teenage boys and young men, not middle aged ones) makes it difficult to generate new customers, so all you can do is change your product to widen its appeal and hope you don't break your existing base too badly, or stick with the existing base and plod along in slow decay. If done poorly, you lose your core base and fail to generate any new interest. If done well, you'll generate new customers and bring some of your old base with you - though some will inevitably abandon the product. That's life.

Basically these companies either go mainstream or die. It's not greed or virtue signalling or whatever - it's just business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
"Marvel is dying"

Marvel's net income from continuing operations has doubled over the past five years

... oops. I really should start checking claims made by people on Dakka, particularly if they're rolling out the old ME:A dev team conspiracy theories.

Superhero comics still suck.

 Thargrim wrote:
Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me.

You act like that's the only example of armor that's not boob-plate, like that's the only way it could possibly be.

I would prefer something closer to a medieval knight's armor to that-- and platemail or scalemail can both definitely be made to look feminine. Take for example the Dancer of the Boreal Valley's Set from Dark Souls 3, Titania's armor from Fire Emblem, and so on. There's plenty of examples of "feminine" looking armors that don't have boob-cups. That piece of art is really just "make sisters armor like space marines", and isn't very inventive or creative. A more slender waist with thicker hips and a single curved bust, hinting at hte existence of breasts but not outwardly saying "here's my tits, y'all".

Again, this is not saying I'm pressuring GW to change the aesthetics. I'm okay with the direction that GW took Sisters in the form of Celestine and the Geminae. It's just your argument is terrible.

 Melissia wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me.

You act like that's the only example of armor that's not boob-plate, like that's the only way it could possibly be.

I would prefer something closer to a medieval knight's armor to that-- and platemail or scalemail can both definitely be made to look feminine. Take for example the Dancer of the Boreal Valley's Set from Dark Souls 3, Titania's armor from Fire Emblem, and so on. There's plenty of examples of "feminine" looking armors that don't have boob-cups. That piece of art is really just "make sisters armor like space marines", and isn't very inventive or creative.

I feel like the dancers set from dark souls seems more like something the sisters of silence should have had. I do like the legs though. It really does come down to individual taste, no matter what GW does some people will be disappointed. I personally basically want the old range/art style updated with modern proportions and crisp plastic detail. If they introduce a new unit, there is room there for a fresh design. But I kind of hope the battle sisters and overall style is like this:

 Yodhrin wrote:
To which the solution is, IMO, GW pulling the finger out and updating their range with more female human soldiers(and other things)

I have it on good authority that the vast bulk of Cadian infantry models were actually designed to rep Klinefelter (XXY) males or masculized / intersex females.

 Thargrim wrote:
I feel like the dancers set from dark souls seems more like something the sisters of silence should have had.

I prefer to pretend Sisters of Silence don't exist. To me, the Sisters of Battle are holy knights of the Imperial Church; a curved platemail look would very much suit them, just as their current aesthetic does.

The armor debate. Oh, dear...

Some of my GW-Cadian minatures are totally female. They just wear exactly the same kind of armor and clothes that everyone else does. They fight just as well or better or worse than the men. Hard to tell because all of them look the same from a distance. I don't care either way because they kill* for the emperor all the same.

*I prefer that my troops kill for the emperor and leave the dying for their enemies.

 BBAP wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
In these other industries, on the cusp of becoming mainstream, they think that appealing to their typical audience (white, middle aged men) is holding them back from having a larger audience.

This is a misreading of the dynamic. It's very difficult for companies to stand still, particularly if you're seeking investment (or have investors to pay already), and your core customer base provides limited scope for growth; there's only so much money you can get out of people. Pandering to your core audience (which is teenage boys and young men, not middle aged ones) makes it difficult to generate new customers, so all you can do is change your product to widen its appeal and hope you don't break your existing base too badly, or stick with the existing base and plod along in slow decay. If done poorly, you lose your core base and fail to generate any new interest. If done well, you'll generate new customers and bring some of your old base with you - though some will inevitably abandon the product. That's life.

Basically these companies either go mainstream or die. It's not greed or virtue signalling or whatever - it's just business.

See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be. You don't achieve success by chasing after markets that don't exist, or markets which won't continue. Meanwhile, you can do what GW has been doing and expanding the market by branching into new related products (board game, novels, cafes) that have a large overlap of interest and production. You can sell a board gamer Space Hulk and he might start playing 40k, but you can't sell a 10 year old girl a stuffed Space Marine and expect the same.

Take Nintendo, for example. They tried the blue ocean strategy with the Wii, and it worked! For a while. It became obvious that while the Wii sold gangbusters to a lot of non-gamers, the majority of them didn't actually buy any other games for it. They just liked Wii Sports. What initially appeared to be an expansion of the audience turned out to be a temporary blip, as these people didn't become long term customers, and were fickle and unpredictable (they abandoned Nintendo for Candy Crush without hesitation). Now, what does Nintendo make? It makes games for core gamers, and crap like Wii Music is nowhere to be found - but we have Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and Breath of the Wild.

 Melissia wrote:
"Marvel is dying"

Marvel's net income from continuing operations has doubled over the past five years

... oops. I really should start checking claims made by people on Dakka, particularly if they're rolling out the old ME:A dev team conspiracy theories.

Superhero comics still suck.

Since a Marvel discussion is off topic for this thread, I was going to leave it be, but I can't let this personal insult slide. You want to check my claims? Here.

Melissia's claims are for Marvel Entertainment, which includes the movie part and all the profits made from toy licensing... from the movie part of Marvel. Marvel Comics, which we are talking about, had a terrible 2017. Here's an article from just a few days ago, over at ICv2. "The biggest problem in comic stores in 2017 was Marvel sales, which were dramatically lower". Marvel overships their comics, even sending retailers free comics that they didn't ask for, in order to buff up their numbers - but those comics aren't actually sold to customers and don't represent the actual market. Most accounts I've seen have shown a 30%-80% drop off on titles over a six month period, and Marvel's failures are hurting local comic book stores that rely on them.

Here's interview from 2016 with David Gabriel. There's a particularly noteworthy quote in there that caused a bit of a gakstorm at the time. Here's a rumor in September of Disney relocating Marvel Comics to Burbank so that they can keep a closer eye on them due to "rapidly declining sales". There's a real fear that Disney might stop publishing comics altogether, since the movie part of Marvel is successful while the comics part is an ongoing embarrassment and PR nightmare.

And if you think Superhero comics suck, I can provide a reading list that will change your mind.

Looking forward to some of the armor decoration and variety for plastic sob. This art right here for me hits the nail on the head for the "classic" sob and looking forward to seeing some of the bling and armor decoration variety in a similar vain to the level that is seen in the BA and SW kits.


For refrence here's pics of the BA sprew from GW webstore. In combination with the level of decoration if we can get similar if not the same content (with exceptions of weapon option limitations) on the sprews, enough bitz to build 10 SoB with options to have 1 superior with load-out options (chainsword, powersword, pistols and combi bolters), 2 specials or 1 special and 1 heavy.

plenty of bitz for bolter sisters and full head options, enough for both with and without helmets
1 or 2 heavy weapons (heavy bolter, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer)
Flamer, Melta and Storm Bolter

Combi-bolters ; Flamer, Plasma, Melta, Crossbow, (superior specific storm bolter?)
pistols; Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, melta pistol, hand flamer
Chain sword, power sword, (power maul?)

plenty of other bitz, incense burners, purity seals, scrolls, grenades, pistol and knives in hands and holstered and such. At least that is my hopes for the base SoB BSS kit.

 Sqorgar wrote:
[q

And if you think Superhero comics suck, I can provide a reading list that will change your mind.

the killing joke is a good reason why they don't suck. at least they used to. I haven't bought a new release comic marvel or otherwise in 20yrs.

 Galas wrote:
As much as I like and love this design and drawing, I can't but find it... offf. Like something is missing. I know, of course, if they adopt this, I will end up getting used to it, but... meh. I don't think its necessary.

Spoiler:

[spoiler]

I feel like a raised chest (not boob plate, I'm thinking Samus Aran's power armor) would do that design a lot of good.

 Melissia wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me.

You act like that's the only example of armor that's not boob-plate, like that's the only way it could possibly be.

I would prefer something closer to a medieval knight's armor to that-- and platemail or scalemail can both definitely be made to look feminine. Take for example the Dancer of the Boreal Valley's Set from Dark Souls 3, Titania's armor from Fire Emblem, and so on. There's plenty of examples of "feminine" looking armors that don't have boob-cups. That piece of art is really just "make sisters armor like space marines", and isn't very inventive or creative. A more slender waist with thicker hips and a single curved bust, hinting at hte existence of breasts but not outwardly saying "here's my tits, y'all".

Again, this is not saying I'm pressuring GW to change the aesthetics. I'm okay with the direction that GW took Sisters in the form of Celestine and the Geminae. It's just your argument is terrible.

I LOVE Titania's design, one of the best in the series.

See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made.

Maybe 20 years ago, but the market has changed significantly in that time and is still evolving.

GW is a business and like other business they are trying to adapt to changing social structures and demands. The beauty of the human race is that we are always evolving and changing.


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I feel like a raised chest (not boob plate, I'm thinking Samus Aran's power armor) would do that design a lot of good.

The classic Samus Aran design is a really good one.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Some HUEG Cawl-esque inhuman Mechanicus monstrosity that just happens to have been a human female before becoming 97% bionic.

I'm curious about this one, Yodhrin - from a model design perspective, how would you see that working? The background side of things would be easy enough, but I wonder how it'd work on the model.

 fox-light713 wrote:
Looking forward to some of the armor decoration and variety for plastic sob. This art right here for me hits the nail on the head for the "classic" sob and looking forward to seeing some of the bling and armor decoration variety in a similar vain to the level that is seen in the BA and SW kits.

Spoiler:

Most of that design is great - just keep with a flat sole on the boot. I mean, we're not talking Varifocal levels of heel stupidity there, but was any required in the first place?

 Sqorgar wrote:
See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be.

So why did you say their core audience was white middle aged men in your last post? I'm struggling to pull your argument together at this point. This started as a discussion about the objections to boob plate - which I personally don't find satisfactory - and we've ended up in some strange rabbit hole where companies are simultaneously targeting middle aged men with their products whilst also not doing so because that market doesn't exist, and from that we draw the conclusion that "SJWs" are killing niche fiction.

Pull this back to boob plate for me.

personal insult

Where?

Melissia's claims are for Marvel Entertainment, which includes the movie part and all the profits made from toy licensing... from the movie part of Marvel. Marvel Comics, which we are talking about, had a terrible 2017.

The whole group is selling the same IP, and as far as I know they're using the same writers and artists etc., but while much of the group is in rude health the Comics arm is doing poorly. To you, that suggests "pandering to SJWs kills your business". I would suggest that's not the only reason comic sales are in decline, and considering the medium itself is probably 20 years out of date I'd suggest it's not even the primary reason. I can't remember the last time I bought a physical paper-and-ink book that wasn't an academic text.

Considering the same IP is being punted by the rest of the group, I'd perhaps suggest that abandonment of core audience in favour of a more generally palatable product (or "pandering to SJWs", if you prefer) isn't to blame at all for the health of Marvel Comics.

I kinda wish people would stop saying that SJW killed comic books as the data just doesn't support that hypothesis. Comics have been on a decline overall regardless of any diversity attempts.

https://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

Is it so hard to realize that business is a multifaceted creature that doesn't have one single reason why it succeeds or fails?

 Galas wrote:
As much as I like and love this design and drawing, I can't but find it... offf. Like something is missing. I know, of course, if they adopt this, I will end up getting used to it, but... meh. I don't think its necessary.

Spoiler:

[spoiler]

Need much more detail/bling. A LOT more.

 Thargrim wrote:
Thats why they need boob plate, that looks androgynous to me. When women are decked out in heavy gothic armor they lose the feminine shape, thus you have to exagerrate it..

Does Shadowsun look androgynous to you too? Should we "exaggerate her feminine shape"? Is there any circumstance where you feel some male model looks androgynous in armor, and we need to "exaggerate his masculine shape”.

 Sqorgar wrote:
See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be. You don't achieve success by chasing after markets that don't exist, or markets which won't continue.

I don't know worldwide but in France manga are massively outperforming comics, as far as I can tell there is no manga crisis at all, and manga managed perfectly to also target an audience that isn't “teenage boy and young men”.
If anything, I'd say Marvel's error is sticking to super-hero crap and multiverse crap. Way to get billions of variation on the same old story, it gets boring quickly.

That spoiled picture is pretty good, but there could be a compromise and do it like they did Neave and Angharad? Though, like its been mentioned earliwe, Celestine and the Geminae have the boob plate, so i doubt it is going anywhere.

 Sqorgar wrote:

Marvel is dying due to pandering, from the type of writers they hired to the type of books they tried to push to the decisions they made with franchise characters. I mean, Marvel drank the Kool-Aid, big time, and you can see it in everything they say and do. I say this as someone with decades of Iron Man comics, and Riri Williams is just about the worst thing I have ever seen - Bendis is a hack.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I've worked in the comics industry for over a decade and do know what I'm talking about, so let me fill you in. Marvel is facing some tough times, but sales on their so called "diversity books" are not the problem. Those books have sold well and continue to sell well. The trade paperbacks sell consistently well too. If you've heard differently then what you've heard isn't true. Marvel has large problems that have nothing to do with these books, including an aging fan base that is buying less and less, a market that prefers digital comics and trade paperbacks and is completely abandoning traditional individual issue purchase, a constant mandate to reboot their books over and over, a long growing public disinterest in traditional superhero comics and having to pander to a dedicated core of sniveling, entitled and often bigoted fans who refuse to even try anything new and throw tantrums any time anything changes at all.

Books like Ms. Marvel, Black Panther, Thor, Sam Wilson: Captain America, Devil Dinosaur and the Riri Williams Iron Man, regardless of their quality (and they are often among the highest quality superhero comics being currently published) are not Marvel's problem. These comics are actually selling constantly well by reaching new readers. These comics are forging a new audience for Marvel. Marvel is very pleased with the success of these titles, and plans to keep this approach, even while trying to figure out how to still hang onto the awful pile of entitlement and nastiness that likes to consider itself their core fan base.

Marvel is in no danger of dying, but they do have plenty of problems. That they aren't catering enough to ridiculously poorly behaved man-children isn't one of them. Take my word for it. As a person who makes comics for a living and works with other professionals who make comics for a living. I know what I'm talking about.

While I'm not saying you're wrong, it's hard to take your word for it.

I do understand the issues you're talking about. About 5 minutes on a comic forum will back you up.

Having said that, when I was in the US comics were still being read by my students, and it seemed about as common as it was when I was in school. Manga is everywhere though in US schools.

I want the breast armor of Sisters staying the same because I simply do not want new models looking different alongside my existing ones. I am perfectly fine with oversexed females with (appropriately sized) boobs on their armor in a universe of oversexed giant masculine male heroes. Aesthetically proportioned female chests don't bother me at all (I love my female Vanguard troopers from Sedition Wars)

HOWEVER-

Female Stormcast Eternals show that GW can do nice looking female armored models with a differently sculpted chest than the traditional breast-cup bullet traps.

I for one would be very happy to add to my metal Sisters army, as long as GW doesn't pull the traditional scale-creep or design change.

Lets have some speculation over what Sisters can bring to the game, though, rather than endless conversations about bewbs.

 AegisGrimm wrote:


I for one would be very happy to add to my metal Sisters army, as long as GW doesn't pull the traditional scale-creep or design change..

Of all this things I've read in this thread this is the most unrealistic.

Inquisitor Greyfax is way bigger than a space marine and shes just a normal human. Though it just occured to me that I've never compared the Gemini to the metal seraphim but I'm pretty sure they're a decent bit bigger.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I am perfectly fine with oversexed females with (appropriately sized) boobs on their armor in a universe of oversexed giant masculine male heroes.

It's all nice and good but which universe are you talking about? Because by that description it's surely not 40k, because damn marines aren't oversexed.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Of all this things I've read in this thread this is the most unrealistic.

Inquisitor Greyfax is way bigger than a space marine and shes just a normal human. Though it just occured to me that I've never compared the Gemini to the metal seraphim but I'm pretty sure they're a decent bit bigger.

The gemini are almost identical to the old seraphim in scale, aside from the improved jump packs and scroll-stands.

Greyfax would actually be slightly shorter than the old 3rd ed model she is derived from if not for the help of her power-heels.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I am perfectly fine with oversexed females with (appropriately sized) boobs on their armor in a universe of oversexed giant masculine male heroes.

It's all nice and good but which universe are you talking about? Because by that description it's surely not 40k, because damn marines aren't oversexed.

Sure they are. In the comic book style fashion of giant manly men with heroic proportions. Maybe not as much as Stormcast and some Blood Angels with sculpted muscle armor, but modern marines are the very epitome of giant male supermen, even if the originals were normal human convicts and gangers in power armor.

Which I am perfectly fine with, I like Space Marines as much as Sisters of Battle and Stormcast. I am a fan of all sorts of armored heroic figures.

On other thoughts, what do Sisters need to gain to fight alongside other 8th edition armies? I'd like a reimagined Penitent Engine-style unit, as I always liked the thought of the originals, but hated the horrible models (especially the tiny ankles).

Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sure they are. In the comic book style fashion of giant manly men with heroic proportions.

So there are oversexed in the comic book style fashion of not being oversexed?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Maybe not as much as Stormcast and some Blood Angels with sculpted muscle armor

Stormcast aren't oversexed either. Nipple armor blood angels kind of are a bit, but it seems involuntary given their fluff .

 AegisGrimm wrote:
very epitome of giant male supermen

Superman isn't oversexed, you are mixing it up with Batman!!!

 AegisGrimm wrote:
On other thoughts, what do Sisters need to gain to fight alongside other 8th edition armies?

Flyers and AA options? More psychic defense?

BBAP wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
See, the thing is, teenage boys and young men are were the money IS made. The audience of middle aged men or women just isn't there, and likely never will be.

So why did you say their core audience was white middle aged men in your last post?

Because I was talking about different industries. Miniature gaming is overwhelmingly middle aged men, while comic books, video games, Magic the Gathering, and the other "nerd industries on the cusp of becoming mainstream" have audiences that are teenage boys and young men. Miniature gaming is not on the cusp of becoming mainstream.

I'm struggling to pull your argument together at this point. This started as a discussion about the objections to boob plate - which I personally don't find satisfactory - and we've ended up in some strange rabbit hole where companies are simultaneously targeting middle aged men with their products whilst also not doing so because that market doesn't exist, and from that we draw the conclusion that "SJWs" are killing niche fiction.

I didn't use the term "SJWs" and won't. If you can't make an argument without labeling your opponent, then you can't make an argument. You should avoid using it too, especially when you are trying characterize my argument using it.

Pull this back to boob plate for me.

The reason people are against boob armor is based on a moral supposition that boob armor is offensive to women, and because things like boob armor and sexualized character designs are offputting to women, Warhammer has fewer women interested in it. Therefore, if we change the things that are offputting to women, we'll get the ladies. That's the argument behind all of the diversity pushes, that more representation will lead to a larger, more diverse audience, and it is provably false in every single industry it has been tried in.

And this is the core argument. You'll get people saying that it isn't practical and that real women on the battlefield don't have boob plate, but that's just them trying to wrap a subjective argument in a (weaker) objective one. It takes about three seconds to realize that they are being extremely selective about which things they find offensive, and it is all based around the sexualization of the female form (massive ornate pauldrons that would weight 50 lbs each? Swords so large that no mortal could swing them? Men with 0% body fat, showing a physique you only find on dehydrated body builders? Okay). It'd be better if they were at least honest about that much, because then every boob armor discussion wouldn't devolve into detailed arguments about the minutiae of 16th century combat tactics.

The whole group is selling the same IP, and as far as I know they're using the same writers and artists etc., but while much of the group is in rude health the Comics arm is doing poorly. To you, that suggests "pandering to SJWs kills your business". I would suggest that's not the only reason comic sales are in decline, and considering the medium itself is probably 20 years out of date I'd suggest it's not even the primary reason. I can't remember the last time I bought a physical paper-and-ink book that wasn't an academic text.

Considering the same IP is being punted by the rest of the group, I'd perhaps suggest that abandonment of core audience in favour of a more generally palatable product (or "pandering to SJWs", if you prefer) isn't to blame at all for the health of Marvel Comics.

So what you are saying is "pandering to SJWs"? No, that's not what I'm saying at all (and there you go again trying to force me to use certain labels). That implies a level of cynical detachment, like Marvel doesn't care one way or another and is just following a market fad. I wouldn't characterize it that way. Marvel isn't pandering. They drank the Kool-Aid. Marvel is filled with, excuse the pun, "true believers".

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I don't know worldwide but in France manga are massively outperforming comics, as far as I can tell there is no manga crisis at all, and manga managed perfectly to also target an audience that isn't “teenage boy and young men”.

This is a weird case of selection bias. In Japan, manga is predominantly for teenage boys (I say this, having lived in Japan). Here's a list of top selling manga in japan, first half of 2016. You have to go pretty far down on that list until you find something targeting anybody else. There are other niches, shoujo probably being the biggest. However, manga has not been adopted by foreign countries with the same demographics and interests, or even the same format (manga is published in weekly serials before being collected into independent volumes in Japan). Since localizing manga is considerably cheaper than creating it and running it in a weekly magazine, this means that the manga we general get in the West is not representative of what is mainstream in Japan. Manga would not be financially viable if created specifically to the desires of Westerners.

jake wrote:You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I've worked in the comics industry for over a decade and do know what I'm talking about, so let me fill you in. Marvel is facing some tough times, but sales on their so called "diversity books" are not the problem. Those books have sold well and continue to sell well. The trade paperbacks sell consistently well too. If you've heard differently then what you've heard isn't true. Marvel has large problems that have nothing to do with these books, including an aging fan base that is buying less and less, a market that prefers digital comics and trade paperbacks and is completely abandoning traditional individual issue purchase, a constant mandate to reboot their books over and over, a long growing public disinterest in traditional superhero comics and having to pander to a dedicated core of sniveling, entitled and often bigoted fans who refuse to even try anything new and throw tantrums any time anything changes at all.

I think your last sentence here shows your bias a little too obviously. I linked to several articles, carefully selected from unbiased sources, that show that Marvel is having sales problems in a big way, and that comic book retailers themselves have told Marvel, to their face, that the diversity push is alienating fans and killing sales. If you want to dispute this, it would go a long way providing your own unbiased sources rather than baseless speculation (and maybe dial back the petty resentment a bit).

That they aren't catering enough to ridiculously poorly behaved man-children isn't one of them. Take my word for it. As a person who makes comics for a living and works with other professionals who make comics for a living. I know what I'm talking about.

I can't imagine you are particularly successful at making comics, if you continually describe your audience as "sniveling, entitled and often bigoted fans" and "ridiculously poorly behaved man-children". As I said above, if you can't make an argument without labeling your opponent, you can't make an argument.

At this point, I'm actually praying for a thread lock. We get 2-3 posts per page of actual SoB speculation/wishlisting (i.e. on-topic) and the rest is just the same old bull argument.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters basically need more unique weapons options. Keep them in line with bolter/flamer/melta, but give them styles of bolter/flamer/melta that no other army has access to. Let Celestians take power spears/swords and combat shields similar to some of the 2e and 3e artwork, so they have an actual purpose in lists and provide a close combat unit that's different enough from both repentia to give variety in that regard. New tanks that look like roving cathedrals, that aren't just rhino based vehicles.

I would be perfectly fine with them fixing the Exorcist, PenEngine and Repentia rules. Models are fine. Additional generic HQ's, Palatine and Seraphim leader would be fantastic. Roll out a pshield/maul/spear/sword troop choice, give Celestians a real purpose, I would be fine if they got an anti-psyker role. But at least give them wargear options like IA: Celestian Command Squads had and tack in either a buff to AoF or an anti-psyker rule for Celestians. Cathedral tank