This is from the youtube channel French Wargame studio latest live, they said this yesterday and they were totally right about drukhari leaks in the live before this one.
Information Tidbits
Codex harlequins :
- There will be a Portal Fortification, 120Pts Not under 14HP 3+ 5++ T8, that you will set everywhere on the table but more than 12inch of enemy and more than 6 inch of objective, that will give the possibility to ds units from it, with a strat similar to necron if he is destroyed you can set them. After the portal is destroyed unit are not forced to be more than 9’’ to the enemy. Strongly implied that this unit will be available to aeldari.
- A warptime spell for Harlequin unit
Codex Deathwatch:
This is the go codex for primaris: they called it the codex Primawatch
- For primaris You can mix unit like this : 5 intercessors ( barebone) + a mix of 5 other miniatures from primaris ( for example agressors, hellbasters, interceptors)
Tactical flexibility stratagem to split your squad
- There will be a stratagem ( Teleportarium) to deepstrike a unit of death watch.
- Stratagem to give sniper rules on death watch unit against xenos . ( they take for example hellblasters sniping synapse tyranid)
- Stratagem auspex scan but work without deepstrike against xenos ( they take examples pointys ears that come at 12”inch and you shoot at them)
- Something to reroll wounds against troops? not precised if stratagem
- They talk about something that can remove tau markerlights? no idea of what type of things that can be
Kill team will be out the same month than deathwatch codex
Isn't Twilight Pathways from the index the warptime spell? Or do they mean something else? Still nice to hear some tidbits the fortification/portal sounds fun if it is true.
Interesting how there's no actual information for Harlequins here. A webway portal fortification that any Aeldari army can use is hardly Harlequin specific and they already have a warptime spell in Twilight Pathways.
Eldarain wrote: I really hope the existing DW get help. It has sounded very Primaris focused so far.
Same here. Primaris are cool and all but the DW Kill team is a great kit that's far to new to be consigned to the back of the shelf.
Hopefully the DW will get greater access to the non Primaris SM range as well. Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, the Stormtalon/Stormhawk, both types of Centurions and the rest of the Dreadnought types would IMO all be good fits for the DW
Sarevokk wrote: This is the go codex for primaris: they called it the codex Primawatch
I'd really like to see his reasoning, because right now, DW primaris are useless. No chapter tactics means every other possible primaris unit is better, no synergy with DW wargear means there is literally zero reason to take them in DW list.
Of course, if DW got some sort of chapter tactic now, and DW primaris can take xenophase blades like BA ones can take chainswords, and primaris bolters now have special ammo...
rollawaythestone wrote: An actual webway portal would be pretty neat for the Aeldari (as long as they don't also remove the webway assault stratagem).
It could be this unsolved rumour engine teaser:
It's pretty obvious that the picture is Eldar in some form. This would make sense, and even though the codex schedule has been a bit dry on model releases, they have still happened from time to time. Armigers and the Cryptek and such. So It wouldn't surprise me.
I dream of one day having a mass of all the different eldar. This would make that quite freaking awesome!
Eldarain wrote: I really hope the existing DW get help. It has sounded very Primaris focused so far.
Same here. Primaris are cool and all but the DW Kill team is a great kit that's far to new to be consigned to the back of the shelf.
Hopefully the DW will get greater access to the non Primaris SM range as well. Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, the Stormtalon/Stormhawk, both types of Centurions and the rest of the Dreadnought types would IMO all be good fits for the DW
Honestly ALL of the marine codacies should just be one big ass book. It would save SO much time. Most people I know who play marines never restrict themselves to one chapter anyways, you can run whatever you like as long as its all declared and legal, paint scheme be damned.
Definitely interested in the Harlequins! There are so many exciting possibilities with them. I really hope they get some new units too. Even more harlequin-ized Aeldari stuff (with rules and model support) would be welcome.
Or maybe not, since I will then be forced to buy them :( haha
Eldarain wrote: I really hope the existing DW get help. It has sounded very Primaris focused so far.
Same here. Primaris are cool and all but the DW Kill team is a great kit that's far to new to be consigned to the back of the shelf.
Hopefully the DW will get greater access to the non Primaris SM range as well. Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, the Stormtalon/Stormhawk, both types of Centurions and the rest of the Dreadnought types would IMO all be good fits for the DW
Honestly ALL of the marine codacies should just be one big ass book. It would save SO much time. Most people I know who play marines never restrict themselves to one chapter anyways, you can run whatever you like as long as its all declared and legal, paint scheme be damned.
If all the marine codices were one book how would they make money selling so many different codices?
Eldarain wrote: I really hope the existing DW get help. It has sounded very Primaris focused so far.
Same here. Primaris are cool and all but the DW Kill team is a great kit that's far to new to be consigned to the back of the shelf.
Hopefully the DW will get greater access to the non Primaris SM range as well. Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, the Stormtalon/Stormhawk, both types of Centurions and the rest of the Dreadnought types would IMO all be good fits for the DW
Honestly ALL of the marine codacies should just be one big ass book. It would save SO much time. Most people I know who play marines never restrict themselves to one chapter anyways, you can run whatever you like as long as its all declared and legal, paint scheme be damned.
If all the marine codices were one book how would they make money selling so many different codices?
Because that codex money would be folded back into model sales!
you really think Codex Deathwatch will be the first codex featuring no army wide tactic?
I don't believe they should get an army tactic, being that they are the rejects from all the chapters. But that is why they get specialized wargear instead.
you really think Codex Deathwatch will be the first codex featuring no army wide tactic?
I don't believe they should get an army tactic, being that they are the rejects from all the chapters. But that is why they get specialized wargear instead.
Uhh, Deathwatch is the best from all of the Chapters, and loyalists from traitor chapters.
Uhh, Deathwatch is the best from all of the Chapters, and loyalists from traitor chapters.
Sure.
Commander we need to send the Deathwatch some men. They request the very best we have. Well what do they do? Sir they hunt Xenos. Wait, don't we do that? Why yes we do! Send them recruit bob and jim, tell them they have done absolutely amazing, we have never seen better recruits, we will honor them with a special privilege. Great idea sir.
That might be your head-canon and that's fine, but it's stated pretty clearly in the books that they're the best of the best and secondment to the deathwatch is a huge honour.
Most of the Marine join the Deathwatch as a field trip and return to their Chapter after their duty is done. If they are really good they can even keep the silver Deathwatch left arm armor and shoulderpad, which is a great honor. Only a few for some particular reason was suggested to stay in the DW indefinitely.
Justyn wrote: Commander we need to send the Deathwatch some men. They request the very best we have. Well what do they do? Sir they hunt Xenos. Wait, don't we do that? Why yes we do! Send them recruit bob and jim, tell them they have done absolutely amazing, we have never seen better recruits, we will honor them with a special privilege. Great idea sir.
Nope, it doesn't work that way. DW is one big dickwaving contest - sure, you can send bad recruit, but it means every Astartes present is going to laugh at them and suddenly you have a dozen neighboring chapters circulating the stories how inept your own is. Only chapters that don't give a damn about their reputation will send someone others can feel superior to and belittle.
Surprised no one have put forward the "correct" answer I have always taken from the fluff.
Some Chapters send their best to learn and bring back skills and knowledge (those not forbidden by their NDA pledges) and would be mortified if their "best and brightest" washed out or somehow disgraced their chapter.
Examples of this would be Ultras, Imperial Fist etc.
Then you got the Chapters who send them to keep the Inquisition off their backs or to investigate their own agendas.
Examples being the poor Lamentors and sneaky Dark Angels rooting out for Blackshields who might be a little too used to black armour.
And then there are others (coughSpaceWolvescough) who take don't give as much attention to the social standing and send marines who cause them trouble to get them out of their hair for a decade or so, or who could learn some lessons in playing nice by being integrated into mixed units.
...so everyone is half right-ish?
I am really looking forward to this, and hope we get a few more flexible options. As for the "no model = no rules" it is easy enough to have a "Deathwatch Primaris" box with a basic sprue and then a few shoulderpads and special weapons that they attach to 1 or more of the Primaris sets.
When I played against actual humans last, I always had the idea of a Thunderbird or something airdropping my Aegis Line just before my foot-sloggers arrived and my pods dropped.
I would be totally behind some specific stuff, not sure how to justify it cost wise with production and distro costs but I would love it.
When I played against actual humans last, I always had the idea of a Thunderbird or something airdropping my Aegis Line just before my foot-sloggers arrived and my pods dropped.
I would be totally behind some specific stuff, not sure how to justify it cost wise with production and distro costs but I would love it.
I think giving stuff rules like the Gnarlmaws got would be a good way to ensure the stuff is if not outright desirable but at least enticing options.
They change the dynamic of the army significantly but aren't necessarily going to be "OMG MUST HAVES!".
you really think Codex Deathwatch will be the first codex featuring no army wide tactic?
I don't believe they should get an army tactic, being that they are the rejects from all the chapters. But that is why they get specialized wargear instead.
I think you need to re-read your Deathwatch lore.. assignment to service under Deathwatch is sometimes a punishment/act of atonement for a massive failure, but a lot of the recruits are some of the chapter's best, usually put up for recommendation due to exceptional experience or prowess shown fighting Xenos. I mean, you going to call Ortan Cassius, the Master of Sanctity of the Ultramarines chapter a washout?
I for one hope that they resolve all the DW wargear issues by releasing Deathwatch kits in Mk.8 with more fancy gear. Assault veterans with shotguns, for a start.
As for their codex, I expect we’ll see “keep specialisations” with tactics and whatnot tailored to certain kinds of Xenos.
Sarevokk wrote: you really think Codex Deathwatch will be the first codex featuring no army wide tactic?
Honestly? Given their last 3 books, if Kelly and Cruddace remain the writers, I'd actually give it 90% to not have anything good
If someone actually competent does it instead, then we can stay optimistic. Hopefully.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: If all the marine codices were one book how would they make money selling so many different codices?
You could do it Forge World style - make one Codex: SM with generic Astartes units, then release booklets with special units of deviant chapters and modifications to generic units. Say, tactical squad becomes wolfwolf squad in SW army with different options table, crusader squad in BT army with their stuff, etc, etc. If it works for HH, why not 40K? You could do also a lot more chapters that way.
Digclaw wrote: Nope, heads and shoulder pads are interchangeable, so current upgrade spru works just fine for primaris.
You could say the same about UM, DA, and BA upgrade sprues, yet they got new Primaris one.
It would be nice if DW got Lieutenant with xenophase like the above did plus new upgrade bits.
Eldarain wrote: I really hope the existing DW get help. It has sounded very Primaris focused so far.
Same here. Primaris are cool and all but the DW Kill team is a great kit that's far to new to be consigned to the back of the shelf.
Hopefully the DW will get greater access to the non Primaris SM range as well. Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, the Stormtalon/Stormhawk, both types of Centurions and the rest of the Dreadnought types would IMO all be good fits for the DW
Mixed Primaris squads should definitely be a thing, but I will definitely be pretty upset if the army they released a year and a half ago is already completely replaced with new models.
I must admit, I'm not a fan of the rules that allows you to fall back and shoot or charge if you happen to have a single bike or jump pack guy in the sqd, it's very clunky. Get rid of that and put it in the strategems.
bullyboy wrote: I must admit, I'm not a fan of the rules that allows you to fall back and shoot or charge if you happen to have a single bike or jump pack guy in the sqd, it's very clunky. Get rid of that and put it in the strategems.
I'd love for these rules to function, but there's no way to transport Kill Teams this way outside of the Blackstar.
bullyboy wrote: I must admit, I'm not a fan of the rules that allows you to fall back and shoot or charge if you happen to have a single bike or jump pack guy in the sqd, it's very clunky. Get rid of that and put it in the strategems.
I'd love for these rules to function, but there's no way to transport Kill Teams this way outside of the Blackstar.
to me it's just odd to have one dude with a jump pack or bike, and voila, you can perform these feats because of that one dude and lose it if he's dead.
If all the marine codices were one book how would they make money selling so many different codices?
Well, they would save a lot of time and money NOT printing more books and NOT distributing them. Let's say you have 100 marine players, of which 70 play regular marines, 10 play BA, 10 play DA, and 10 play SW. You could make one big codex to sell to all 100, or you could sell 1 to 70, 1 to 10, 1 to 10 and 1 to 10. In total you sold 100 books, but you spent more money on each codex.
I am not really looking at any DW Primaris. If they get SI ammo on Bolt Rifles, Assault Bolters, or Boltstorm Gauntlets, I will definitely change my tune though.
Uhh, Deathwatch is the best from all of the Chapters, and loyalists from traitor chapters.
Sure.
Commander we need to send the Deathwatch some men. They request the very best we have. Well what do they do? Sir they hunt Xenos. Wait, don't we do that? Why yes we do! Send them recruit bob and jim, tell them they have done absolutely amazing, we have never seen better recruits, we will honor them with a special privilege. Great idea sir.
Heresy. There are no terrible space marines. They're all glorious gods, supreme and perfect.
Uhh, Deathwatch is the best from all of the Chapters, and loyalists from traitor chapters.
Sure.
Commander we need to send the Deathwatch some men. They request the very best we have. Well what do they do? Sir they hunt Xenos. Wait, don't we do that? Why yes we do! Send them recruit bob and jim, tell them they have done absolutely amazing, we have never seen better recruits, we will honor them with a special privilege. Great idea sir.
Heresy. There are no terrible space marines. They're all glorious gods, supreme and perfect.
They're all just future entertainment in the Wych Cult Arenas just waiting for collection.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh yeah. Nothing's more awesome than an new Marine mini whose weapon options are limited by whatever fits on his sprue.
GW really needs to stop that. They gotta understand it's unpopular and people are gonna do Counts-As regardless.
I don't think they care so much about preventing 'counts-as' as they do making options that don't exist that force players to go to third party manufacturers or scratch build something.
Personally, minis with options that aren't available in the box need to die, forever. I refuse to become a structural engineer, carpenter, or sculptor because I want the most point efficient options on my dreadnoughts.
Kit-bashing or w/e is fun for some people, but making it mandatory to use a product we already payed an excessive amount of money for, that we are expected to build AND hand paint, is silly. They should be including more options on sprues.
People are gonna kitbash regardless if they think the weapon looks neat.
For example there's that one Hobbit dude that FW released that looks stupid but has that awesome spiked club. I'd take that and make it into a Thunder Hammer Counts-As, though we can pretend I got it from a third party.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're also more describing a balance issue rather than a kit issue.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh yeah. Nothing's more awesome than an new Marine mini whose weapon options are limited by whatever fits on his sprue.
GW really needs to stop that. They gotta understand it's unpopular and people are gonna do Counts-As regardless.
I don't think they care so much about preventing 'counts-as' as they do making options that don't exist that force players to go to third party manufacturers or scratch build something.
Personally, minis with options that aren't available in the box need to die, forever. I refuse to become a structural engineer, carpenter, or sculptor because I want the most point efficient options on my dreadnoughts.
Kit-bashing or w/e is fun for some people, but making it mandatory to use a product we already payed an excessive amount of money for, that we are expected to build AND hand paint, is silly. They should be including more options on sprues.
Except that they are ignoring all of the cross compatible options that are deliberately built into the kits (particularly Space Marines); for example I now have two apothecaries that I can only use with the index rules (i.e. will shortly become unplayable), because one is on a bike and the other is equipped with a bolt gun rather than a bolt pistol. There was no cutting, sculpting or structural engineering required to make these models, I simply switched out the relevant bits using the modularity that was designed into the models in the first place. But because the OfficialTMGW kit doesn’t have those options in it, they are no longer supported in the codex, despite command squad bikes having been an option since god knows when.
ERJAK wrote: Personally, minis with options that aren't available in the box need to die, forever. I refuse to become a structural engineer, carpenter, or sculptor because I want the most point efficient options on my dreadnoughts.
Go and click the link in my first post in this thread. This is the type of nonsense we're talking about, where a DW Chaplain can't have a jump pack or a power fist despite you being able to slap a DW pad on a Chaplain mini because GW didn't make a specific Deathwatch Chaplain with a jump pack and/or power fist. Where a DW Captain can only have a Storm Bolter and either a power sword or relic blade rather than any other weapon combo, regardless of all the other Terminator kits that are out there.
It affects every army out there (only DA Primaris Lts can have plasma pistols because the DA Primaris Lt has one and the BA/vanilla Lt minis don't) but it so much more pronounced with the asinine DW equipment restrictions.
Them surviving into the Codex would be a tragic failure of rules design.
I'd be interested to see what the background for DW Primaris is. Do they still mostly get recruited from regular chapters, or did the DW get a load of "fresh" Primaris straight from the Indominus crusade forces?
I think that Deathwatch by design should have the most options available to them. They have such a massive arsenal of different things that their versatility should be highlighted. Primaris should have the options of all loadouts available to other chapters so their LTs. for example should be able to be equipped with plasma pistols, power swords, auto/stalker guns and all that. Perhaps a new model for them with a flamer would be really cool as well.
Another thing I would love to see is being able to pick between any of the space marine psyker disciplines to really open up even more options for them.
My copy of the DE codex hasn't arrived yet. But apparently there HQ units have options that have to kit bashed from other DE kits? Maybe its a blip, or maybe its a changing of attitude at GW and some of those daft restrictions on DW wargear will be gone when the codex drops?
GoatboyBeta wrote: My copy of the DE codex hasn't arrived yet. But apparently there HQ units have options that have to kit bashed from other DE kits? Maybe its a blip, or maybe its a changing of attitude at GW and some of those daft restrictions on DW wargear will be gone when the codex drops?
The Archon did lose access to a couple options, such as the Blaster, but they can still take several items that are not available on the Archon kits.
GoatboyBeta wrote: My copy of the DE codex hasn't arrived yet. But apparently there HQ units have options that have to kit bashed from other DE kits? Maybe its a blip, or maybe its a changing of attitude at GW and some of those daft restrictions on DW wargear will be gone when the codex drops?
The Archon did lose access to a couple options, such as the Blaster, but they can still take several items that are not available on the Archon kits.
Can't lose options from the index, only gain them from a codex.
GoatboyBeta wrote: My copy of the DE codex hasn't arrived yet. But apparently there HQ units have options that have to kit bashed from other DE kits? Maybe its a blip, or maybe its a changing of attitude at GW and some of those daft restrictions on DW wargear will be gone when the codex drops?
The Archon did lose access to a couple options, such as the Blaster, but they can still take several items that are not available on the Archon kits.
Can't lose options from the index, only gain them from a codex.
I am aware. I am just saying that the codex entry does not have those options.
cuda1179 wrote: I wonder if they'll make a Primaris Watchmaster. It would be cool to see a Primaris with a Guardian Spear.
Do One for yourself with the single hand guardian spear from the Custodes Box set... ;-) I think the special thing on his left arm is a little tricky but its also possible...take the Primaris Sgt. Arm with the Display in it and maybe combine it with an auspex for the look...
In general Primaris also dont need new weapons, they already have special Boltguns that are like the special Deathwatch Ones...Stalkers..the One with the bigger Scope on them...take Intercessors and build them with these updates, put the Shoulder Pads from the Deathwatch Update on them maybe also a head/helmet or two and you are done...ok the Stalker guns dont have the supressor but Stalker is Stalker... ;-)
I was hoping Harlies have other Eldar and DE vehicles like how 1k sons and DG do. Though a webway fortification will probably eliminate a need for that.
I also do not want to see a Primaris focus, especially considering the KT's are already points heavy. Plus their current kits look great and there is already a good amount of options available.
A Deep Strike Strategem would be nice if it includes mixed KT's, as they need a way to get up the board and I can't see running two Blackstars. For this reason alone I decided to pass on mixed KT's so that I have room for two squads and my Watchmaster.
The Webway Gate will be accompanying the release of Codex: Harlequins. We’re happy to confirm that this codex, alongside Codex: Deathwatch, will be out in May, and we’ll be running extensive previews on both as we get ready for them to go on pre-order.
Looks very cool those helmets are amazing. Makes me want updated aspect warriors even more. I wonder if this will allow Eldar armies to circumvent the new reinforcement rules for turn 1? If it cannot move and is subject to the reinforcement rule it's usability will be limited.
The Webway Gate will be accompanying the release of Codex: Harlequins. We’re happy to confirm that this codex, alongside Codex: Deathwatch, will be out in May, and we’ll be running extensive previews on both as we get ready for them to go on pre-order.
this is awesome. I hope there will be more so we can build a craftworld table.
Very cool as decoration. Doesn't look like the most interesting of terrain to play with, but cool none the less. I'll be curious to see what mods people do to have it active.
The Webway Gate will be accompanying the release of Codex: Harlequins. We’re happy to confirm that this codex, alongside Codex: Deathwatch, will be out in May, and we’ll be running extensive previews on both as we get ready for them to go on pre-order.
Recovering the old rumour about this one.
14 W 3+ and 5++ for 120 points, can be used as a deep strike point/deployment structure in matches.
On a personal note from a Wraith themed owned, love the Wraithlord/Spiritseer design helmets of the sides.
dan2026 wrote: Does anyone think we might get a Start Collecting Harlequins box to go along with the codex?
Am I right in thinking Harlequins haven't had one before?
The Webway Gate will be accompanying the release of Codex: Harlequins. We’re happy to confirm that this codex, alongside Codex: Deathwatch, will be out in May, and we’ll be running extensive previews on both as we get ready for them to go on pre-order.
this is awesome. I hope there will be more so we can build a craftworld table.
The Webway Gate will be accompanying the release of Codex: Harlequins. We’re happy to confirm that this codex, alongside Codex: Deathwatch, will be out in May, and we’ll be running extensive previews on both as we get ready for them to go on pre-order.
this is awesome. I hope there will be more so we can build a craftworld table.
So this week's preorders are Deepkin plus other stuff. It seems highly likely that next week's preorder will be Deepkin plus a codex. We will find out on Sunday but I am pretty confident that the Harlequins will be up next.
Good to see more Xenos terrain. We need more of that.
Porphyrius wrote: Wow, gorgeous! I definitely wasn't expecting something that large.
I had no opinion on the matter prior to seeing the picture so I can only speak in retrospect, but it makes sense that GW would make a gate that can fit the largest plastic Eldar kit they make. It's a bit sad that its size removes any incentive to build a limboing Wraithknight, though.
.. actually I heard a little rumour a while back that the terrain sections in the GW stores were going to be scrapped/removed and the future terrain kits would all be folded into the various ranges as new kits were released -- bit like the Tau fortifications, the recent nurgle tree and, presumably, this warpgate.
reds8n wrote: .. actually I heard a little rumour a while back that the terrain sections in the GW stores were going to be scrapped/removed and the future terrain kits would all be folded into the various ranges as new kits were released -- bit like the Tau fortifications, the recent nurgle tree and, presumably, this warpgate.
It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. You have things like the Wall of Martyrs line that could have been in the Guard book, the Tidewall stuff, this Webway, the Sporocyst, and the Gnarlmaw.
I hope there is more eldar terrain to come with the Webway gate - but that looks gorgeous and big. Army themed terrain would be great- I'd love some for Nids too.
reds8n wrote: .. actually I heard a little rumour a while back that the terrain sections in the GW stores were going to be scrapped/removed and the future terrain kits would all be folded into the various ranges as new kits were released -- bit like the Tau fortifications, the recent nurgle tree and, presumably, this warpgate.
I'd be amused to see what they do for Necrons, since the Monolith and Gauss Pylon basically already are terrain pieces.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You mean linking terrain to armies, rather than just 'generic terrain'?
Theres no such thing as "generic terrain", just Imperial one. (I know, I know, by the structure of the universe, to invade imperial planets is the default setting)
cuda1179 wrote: There is generic terrain. All craters are generic. As are all natural terrain features like rivers, hills, and trees.
I'll concede you craters and other things like rock formations, but even plants and the like are obviously "terran" in nature, the "generic" ones. Then you have stuff like the new eldar ruins and xeno plants.
More buildings/terrain will be released with Kill Team but only some (one) will be Sector Mechanicus - the balance will be that new Gothic Ruins stuff.
As for replacing Cities of Death… it might happen but I reckon it’s more likely that all CoD stuff goes to Direct Only as there’s no actual need to retire the moulds completely at this time.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You mean linking terrain to armies, rather than just 'generic terrain'?
Yes.
Like the boat thing with the recent fish elf release.
I haven't heard anything about the existing kits going away or anything.
I hope they don't. I need like three more Manufactorums for my table. I am definitely in favor of other armies getting themed terrain though. I want to make an alien landscape table too.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I hope they don't. I need like three more Manufactorums for my table. I am definitely in favor of other armies getting themed terrain though. I want to make an alien landscape table too.
You may be interested in knowing that the Basilica Administratum just went Direct Only, leaving the Manufactorum as the last of these three kits available to stores individually. So if you're looking for it at a discount be aware that the Manufactorum may very well follow the same path and disappear from stores shelves in the near future.
Also note that the Imperial Sector is also still available.
Chikout wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/29/the-leviadon-emerges-legends-return-and-the-deathwatch-strike/
Deathwatch confirmed for next weekend.
So what are we thinking, like with Normie Marines vs Primaris in C:SM the Fortis KT's get slightly better basic profiles & loadouts, but essentially no customisation? Meh.
Also - very disappointing to see that Warhammer Legends is basically just a rebranding of Made to Order releases for AoS.
Chikout wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/29/the-leviadon-emerges-legends-return-and-the-deathwatch-strike/
Deathwatch confirmed for next weekend.
No DW Primaris Lieutenant and upgrade sprue?
It seems so. I hoped for atleast a Primaris Lieutenant as with DA and BA.
Platuan4th wrote: We already knew that's what Warhammer Legends was, though...
I for one thought that seeing as they gave it a whole different name it would be different to made to order in some way. Now I'm more confused by it than anything.
Chikout wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/29/the-leviadon-emerges-legends-return-and-the-deathwatch-strike/
Deathwatch confirmed for next weekend.
No DW Primaris Lieutenant and upgrade sprue?
It seems so. I hoped for atleast a Primaris Lieutenant as with DA and BA.
I am holding out hope that they still have more to announce. Otherwise, I guess you could just replace the DA/BA Primaris LT shoulder pauldrons with a DW pauldrons, but that is kinda boring. It is what I am going to do so I can have a reason to get the DA LT though.
Hm, so a military organization that is built upon integrating a myriad of fighting styles and weapon training can't find any way to do integrate primaris with non primaris (which both go through space marine training).
Glad to see the deathwatch armory is controlled by quartermaster GW sales team.
Maybe. But if it allows you to run 5 man Primaris “tactical squads” with 4 Intercessors and a Hellblaster and ObSec at no massive extra cost, it might still turn out to be the default book for people to run semi-to-non-competitive Nu-Marine lists.
Dang. A while back I bought 21 HellBlasters (got an extra one) for my Deathwatch. Now it looks like I may need to buy a ton of Intercessors to make them an optimal build.
Kirasu wrote: Hm, so a military organization that is built upon integrating a myriad of fighting styles and weapon training can't find any way to do integrate primaris with non primaris (which both go through space marine training).
Glad to see the deathwatch armory is controlled by quartermaster GW sales team.
Not only that, but the Veterans standout amongst their brothers in their chapters for their skill in fighting Xenos, yet as soon as they're seconded to the Deathwatch they're not allowed to use the weapons/wargear they used to fight the xenos. They also lose stuff if they're promoted within the Deathwatch. That Ravenwing biker? Can only take a power weapon. That White Scars veteran biker that became a captain in the Deathwatch? Can't take a bike any more, but gains access to a jump pack. That Blood Angels Dreadnought? Can't take his trusty Furioso Frag Cannon any more. That Deathwing Terminator can't take a plasma cannon any more. That Crimson Fist landspeeder pilot is no longer allowed to pilot landspeeders. That Blood Ravens scout marine isn't allowed on the tabletop despite multiple fluff sources having scout marines in the Deathwatch. Etc. Etc.
It's dumb. I get that they can't have access to every single piece of wargear the Imperium has to offer, but there's no reason they can't have basic choices such as biker HQs, landspeeders, or scouts.
Which is why i'm bothered by the lack of leaks for this book. Half this thread is just talking about eldar terrain. The lack of info just confirms that barely anything is changing about the Deathwatch except for gaining stratagems and Primaris killteams.
Kirasu wrote: Glad to see the deathwatch armory is controlled by quartermaster GW sales team.
If you thought the regular Deathwatch wargear and upgrade list was an maze of arbitrary restrictions and asinine lost modelling opportunities, wait 'til you see the Primaris Deathwatch!
What is it with Loyalist armies and wanting to have their cake and eat it too? You gotta have some restrictions on what you are allowed to bring or else you're just Codex:SM+. Be thankful your list isn't as limited as the cult legion armies.
Arachnofiend wrote: What is it with Loyalist armies and wanting to have their cake and eat it too? You gotta have some restrictions on what you are allowed to bring or else you're just Codex:SM+. Be thankful your list isn't as limited as the cult legion armies.
There's a pretty cavernous gap between "some restrictions" and "randomly removing basic wargear options based on a hilariously stupid interpretation of the no-model-no-rules concept". Nobody's arguing for Deathwatch Sanguinary Guard or whatever, but it would be nice to give a DW Chaplain a sodding jump pack, or to have more options on a Terminator Captain than "replace the power sword with a relic blade".
Relics, strats, special units etc, sure, those are for their respective codices, but if it's a basic bit of equipment or wargear it should be available because there's no rational reason it shouldn't be.
The Webway Gate will be accompanying the release of Codex: Harlequins. We’re happy to confirm that this codex, alongside Codex: Deathwatch, will be out in May, and we’ll be running extensive previews on both as we get ready for them to go on pre-order.
The most exciting thing for me is the new 6mm scale wraith knight they have behind it!
Kirasu wrote: Hm, so a military organization that is built upon integrating a myriad of fighting styles and weapon training can't find any way to do integrate primaris with non primaris (which both go through space marine training).
What do you want, their parent organization still can't figure out how to fit Primaris through the door of vehicles that somehow can carry even stuff like Centurions. Why you can't put Primaris in a Rhino (even limited to 5) or Agressors in Land Raider (which would massively drive sales of both models that are kinda garbage right now lacking important synergy) is a mystery for the ages
Arachnofiend wrote: What is it with Loyalist armies and wanting to have their cake and eat it too? You gotta have some restrictions on what you are allowed to bring or else you're just Codex:SM+. Be thankful your list isn't as limited as the cult legion armies.
Yawn. SM dreadnought can take 15+ weapon options in every single SM book. It can take three options in DW book. Go on, please explain how it makes sense for elite organization that has access to every single weapon in the Imperium to be barred from taking such "rare" and "complex" technology as missile launcher or autocannon that even primitive IG regiments from backward worlds can take in droves. Just try to make up something that makes even minute amount of sense. They are already massively limited because they can only take 2 out of more than 15+ dreadnoughts SM have access to, and the ones DW can take are by far the worst of the bunch, not even option to take special DW ammo for them...
Then take DW vanguard veteran box, stare at the instruction telling you how to make DW veteran with relic blade, then at sprue containing said relic blade, then do explain how Phil Kelly's incompetence that deleted all sergeant options from DW vanguard veteran rules that again, doesn't allow them to take multiple bits that are right there on the sprues, makes any sense. Also, guess what they get in compensation for this? ZERO. Big fat zero, not even option to take DW specific stuff like xenophase blades or melta fists, because frakk logic, it wouldn't make sense to give DW melee unit access to actual DW melee weapons, am I right?
To put things in the perspective for you, if the above examples are not enough, imagine GW prints World Eater book, with Berserkers only ever allowed to take a laspistol and chansword combo. Why not? Because as you said, they can't be just "CSM+" so they need to have "some restrictions", eh?
I recently purchased a ton of Deathwatch models and have been holding off on building them until the Codex hits.
This is mostly because of confusion about the weapons options. I thought the Index entries were just typos, there's no way they could be this poorly equipped. Even putting together an army list was tough, they are very expensive for what they can carry.
Looking forward to seeing what's in the new Codex. I don't really want to go the Primaris route with them and hope there's a lot more to the army than what we saw in the Index.
A couple of pics from the new white dwarf. Harlequins codex is up for preorder on May 12th. The webway gate is getting a week to itself on the 19th for some reason. £25 for the kit is a good price though.
AUD$70 for the Wraithgate? That's got to be a typo. It's clearly missing the second zero.
[EDIT]: Wait a second. The Wraithgate kit gets you one spire, right? So you'd need two to do what they do in the picture? Right? Or is my cynicism getting the better of it.
I hope GW pulls back from the no model, no rules thing. Deathwatch really is the worst example of this. Not holding my breath, but hope springs eternal (and is the first step on the road to disappointment)
H.B.M.C. wrote: AUD$70 for the Wraithgate? That's got to be a typo. It's clearly missing the second zero.
[EDIT]: Wait a second. The Wraithgate kit gets you one spire, right? So you'd need two to do what they do in the picture? Right? Or is my cynicism getting the better of it.
No. Just like 99% of the terrain that has come out lately, it will have two of the same sprue.
Great to hear on the price of the portal. Especially considering that they'll almost certainly try to buff up sales volume by making them only useful if you buy 2+.
To differentiate them from the wwp Stratagem I'm guessing they have a necron monolith-esque hop from one to the other ability.
€32.50?! Colour me (pleasantly) surprised! I mean, I've no way to transport one to games, but it's pretty darn cool nonetheless.
I have a theory though... that it's actually a precursor to an Exodites release that'll be announced at Warhammer Fest. In the fluff they're often fighting Knights Households... JUst a notion!
the_scotsman wrote: Great to hear on the price of the portal. Especially considering that they'll almost certainly try to buff up sales volume by making them only useful if you buy 2+.
To differentiate them from the wwp Stratagem I'm guessing they have a necron monolith-esque hop from one to the other ability.
Honestly, I'd take it a step further. Given the new bit for Deep Strike rules, I could see you being able to deploy the Webway Portal before sides are picked. It'd let Eldar deep strike in without concern in T1 outside of their deployment zone, but man does it make them juicy targets.
H.B.M.C. wrote: AUD$70 for the Wraithgate? That's got to be a typo. It's clearly missing the second zero.
[EDIT]: Wait a second. The Wraithgate kit gets you one spire, right? So you'd need two to do what they do in the picture? Right? Or is my cynicism getting the better of it.
It reads "...wraith constructs [plural] standing sentinel on the outsides [plural] of the gate's arms [plural]" with a picture showing a gate with two arms.
Healthy cynicism is healthy and all that, but I think there might just be two spires in the box.
the_scotsman wrote: Great to hear on the price of the portal. Especially considering that they'll almost certainly try to buff up sales volume by making them only useful if you buy 2+.
To differentiate them from the wwp Stratagem I'm guessing they have a necron monolith-esque hop from one to the other ability.
Honestly, I'd take it a step further. Given the new bit for Deep Strike rules, I could see you being able to deploy the Webway Portal before sides are picked. It'd let Eldar deep strike in without concern in T1 outside of their deployment zone, but man does it make them juicy targets.
Makes me wonder if the latest FAQ (and the associated shift in GW's view) will have any impact on it. Before that I would have said that the Eldar player may place the portal anywhere on the table with no regard for how close enemy models are, and allow models to come through and charge as they please. Could be a different story now that first turn deep strike has been limited.
Or Eldar get favored treatment again and the gate isn't considered deep strike, so they get to break the game to their heart's content after all.
H.B.M.C. wrote: AUD$70 for the Wraithgate? That's got to be a typo. It's clearly missing the second zero.
[EDIT]: Wait a second. The Wraithgate kit gets you one spire, right? So you'd need two to do what they do in the picture? Right? Or is my cynicism getting the better of it.
It reads "...wraith constructs [plural] standing sentinel on the outsides [plural] of the gate's arms [plural]" with a picture showing a gate with two arms.
Healthy cynicism is healthy and all that, but I think there might just be two spires in the box.
the_scotsman wrote: Great to hear on the price of the portal. Especially considering that they'll almost certainly try to buff up sales volume by making them only useful if you buy 2+.
To differentiate them from the wwp Stratagem I'm guessing they have a necron monolith-esque hop from one to the other ability.
Honestly, I'd take it a step further. Given the new bit for Deep Strike rules, I could see you being able to deploy the Webway Portal before sides are picked. It'd let Eldar deep strike in without concern in T1 outside of their deployment zone, but man does it make them juicy targets.
Makes me wonder if the latest FAQ (and the associated shift in GW's view) will have any impact on it. Before that I would have said that the Eldar player may place the portal anywhere on the table with no regard for how close enemy models are, and allow models to come through and charge as they please. Could be a different story now that first turn deep strike has been limited.
Or Eldar get favored treatment again and the gate isn't considered deep strike, so they get to break the game to their heart's content after all.
Or, they make the rules pretty similar to the feculent Gnarlmaw: you buy them with points, set them down on the table while terrain is being set up (I.e. before you know where your deployment edge is going to be) and again this is pure speculation, I don't have rumors, but I'm guessing they allow you to warp a unit or units from inside one gate to inside another you have down on the table.
So gamewise, they wouldn't interact with the new beta rule, just like Orks with Da Jump and GK with GOI don't (because you'd be starting the models on the table and walking them through the portal) and they'd probably end up pointswise somewhat less expensive than sticking your army in transports, because you'd be much more exposed to shooting and you'd have fixed points you could transport between.
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about Harlequins getting access to turn 1 charges more easily. It's already laughably easy for them to do so. Twilight Pathways grants a unit of harlequins 16"+4D6" charge threat range, Solitaire Blitz grants the solitaire 12"+5D6" charge threat range, and the skyweavers have 22"+2D6" threat range. They can already charge straight across the board turn 1 and get to enemy units in melee.
the_scotsman wrote: Great to hear on the price of the portal. Especially considering that they'll almost certainly try to buff up sales volume by making them only useful if you buy 2+.
To differentiate them from the wwp Stratagem I'm guessing they have a necron monolith-esque hop from one to the other ability.
Honestly, I'd take it a step further. Given the new bit for Deep Strike rules, I could see you being able to deploy the Webway Portal before sides are picked. It'd let Eldar deep strike in without concern in T1 outside of their deployment zone, but man does it make them juicy targets.
Makes me wonder if the latest FAQ (and the associated shift in GW's view) will have any impact on it. Before that I would have said that the Eldar player may place the portal anywhere on the table with no regard for how close enemy models are, and allow models to come through and charge as they please. Could be a different story now that first turn deep strike has been limited.
Or Eldar get favored treatment again and the gate isn't considered deep strike, so they get to break the game to their heart's content after all.
I wouldn't say it really becomes "favored" treatment. If a Webway Gate uses the same rules as Deep Strike(9" away from an enemy, etc)--then you can still deny them it even if they can Deep Strike outside of their Deployment Zone.
Or, they make the rules pretty similar to the feculent Gnarlmaw: you buy them with points, set them down on the table while terrain is being set up (I.e. before you know where your deployment edge is going to be) and again this is pure speculation, I don't have rumors, but I'm guessing they allow you to warp a unit or units from inside one gate to inside another you have down on the table.
So gamewise, they wouldn't interact with the new beta rule, just like Orks with Da Jump and GK with GOI don't (because you'd be starting the models on the table and walking them through the portal) and they'd probably end up pointswise somewhat less expensive than sticking your army in transports, because you'd be much more exposed to shooting and you'd have fixed points you could transport between.
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about Harlequins getting access to turn 1 charges more easily. It's already laughably easy for them to do so. Twilight Pathways grants a unit of harlequins 16"+4D6" charge threat range, Solitaire Blitz grants the solitaire 12"+5D6" charge threat range, and the skyweavers have 22"+2D6" threat range. They can already charge straight across the board turn 1 and get to enemy units in melee.
I don't think this is meant to be Harlequins only. If it were, I feel like it would be preordering the same week as their book(apparently the 12th?).
Nightlord1987 wrote: Gnarlmaws and all fortifications are set up and placed just like any other unit in your army, in your deployment zone and count as a drop.
Which might still be ok if the WWG has a specific rule that functions like Disembarking, rather than deploying from Tactical reserves.
And honestly, at ~120pts, it as to allow units to exit turn 1 outside the deployment zone, as otherwise it is a waste of points entirely.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Gnarlmaws and all fortifications are set up and placed just like any other unit in your army, in your deployment zone and count as a drop.
Which might still be ok if the WWG has a specific rule that functions like Disembarking, rather than deploying from Tactical reserves.
And honestly, at ~120pts, it as to allow units to exit turn 1 outside the deployment zone, as otherwise it is a waste of points entirely.
Beautiful model though. Definitely getting it.
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And what if it allows for you to reinforce losses to a unit?
I can think of a few scenarios where it might not allow you to "exit turn 1 outside the deployment zone" but still be amazeballs.
Hmm. Being able to portal around your deployment zone doesn't sound great, and reinforcements in your zone doesn't sound amazing either considering the short range of almost all aeldari units. Here's hoping it's not just for Dank Reapers to be even more op.
Something that could be used to establish board control without transports would be 100% my hope for the portal. Across all aeldari factions you see a theme similar to the marine problem where you want your iconic, gorgeous models on the table as little as possible because they're hiding in transports and have a 2s lifespan outside of them.
I play Harlequins for crazy clowns doing backflips dammit, not Venomspam 2: Venoms Join The Circus.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Gnarlmaws and all fortifications are set up and placed just like any other unit in your army, in your deployment zone and count as a drop.
Which might still be ok if the WWG has a specific rule that functions like Disembarking, rather than deploying from Tactical reserves.
And honestly, at ~120pts, it as to allow units to exit turn 1 outside the deployment zone, as otherwise it is a waste of points entirely.
Beautiful model though. Definitely getting it.
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And what if it allows for you to reinforce losses to a unit?
I can think of a few scenarios where it might not allow you to "exit turn 1 outside the deployment zone" but still be amazeballs.
You still have to pay points for those Reinforcements and thus not be able to use them in the first turn. Not very amazeballs, no matter how the rule works.
Also keep in mind that the gate looks like it can be destroyed, so not being able to use it effectively in the first turn risks not being able to use it AT ALL.
I can't help but wonder whether anyone at GW ever knew what they wanted to do with Deathwatch marines.
To me, at least, with my limited marine-based attention span, I thought Deatwatch were at the very least nifty because their shtick was "Specialized marines." It was a commando team where every guy was his own unique character and has his own signature gear, or fighting style, or whatever.
and with the kits, that *seemed* to be the way GW was approaching it. But in 7th they made the bizarre step of making the Kill Team, their signature unit, be a unit of specialized, individual units that you had to smash together into a single bizarre unit that just did not function together in any way.
It would seem like the way to go with deathwatch would be THE EXACT OPPOSITE of that - offset their low numbers by making them the ultimate MSU space marine army, with their operatives being more like bad ass individuals rather than regimented squads. Maybe make their terminators and bikers minimum unit size 1, their vets and jump pack marines be minimum unit size 3.
But instead, we have the opposite: The least flexible, weird and clunkiest hordes of dudes with non-synergizing weaponry, shackled together by invisible chains of unit coherency, forced to fight and move together despite having totally different roles in the team.
And now we're going to shove in Primaris Marines, who make the regular guys look super-customizable, and we're going to make sure any Deathwatch buffs get applied to the faceless clone troopers of the Primaris as well. Any improvements that work well on Primaris Marines will work terribly on hyper-customized, specialist Deathwatch with varied wargear.
pm713 wrote: Almost as if Games Workshop just did it for a quick cash grab with no solid plan.
but they've had like two years of abject failure to figure out a plan. Its just bizarre that they made a whole codex for a single five man kit, and then theyre setting this one up like it's just another primaris marine cash gra-
oh.
yeah, ok, it makes sense now. It's just another primaris marine cash grab.
Assuming intercessors get the same special issue ammunition presented in the current index they are going to go from zeroes to heroes. At 18 points you will have a model who can choose to have a 36 inch range rapid fire 1 s4 ap-2 weapon (kraken) or the super deadly 30 inch rapid fire 1 wounding on 2s ap - 1 weapon. This a huge jump in their killing ability. Like for 18 points a model that is actually scary.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Assuming intercessors get the same special issue ammunition presented in the current index they are going to go from zeroes to heroes. At 18 points you will have a model who can choose to have a 36 inch range rapid fire 1 s4 ap-2 weapon (kraken) or the super deadly 30 inch rapid fire 1 wounding on 2s ap - 1 weapon. This a huge jump in their killing ability. Like for 18 points a model that is actually scary.
GW aint gonna leave them anywhere near that price tag. Assume, like all things DW, like a 50% markup.
Well, I had gone insane and got most stuff on the last big release of DW way back when.
Now we stick Primarus guys into the mix.
It will feel like deploying an armored Ratling and Ogryn army.
Well, looking forward to a reason to field the Xenos killers.
I almost have my Greyfax model almost painted, Deathwatch may be a logical pairing.
Reivers match fairly well with primaris Marines aesthetic and fluff wise but the rest seem like complete anathema to the DW fantasy of a specialized, highly equipped commando unit.
Aren73 wrote: Going by the price and number of pages...I doubt Harlequins will get anything more than in the index, other than the usual artefacts, strategems etc.
I was hoping that they'd be able to field one or two more units from craftworlds but I guess it's just the dudes we have now.
At least the models are nice.
I was hoping to see the option to potentially take Eldar and Dark Eldar flyers as part of the army, replacing the <<Asuryani>> and <<Drukhari>> keywords with <<Harlequin>>. While they were at it also do the same with Craftworld Heavy Support options.
the_scotsman wrote: Reivers match fairly well with primaris Marines aesthetic and fluff wise but the rest seem like complete anathema to the DW fantasy of a specialized, highly equipped commando unit.
How? Primaris are actually nearly 1:1 equivalents of existing DW stuff, with the exception of bikes every DW unit has direct Primaris lookalike. Really, all DW Primaris need to shine (especially Reivers) is GW firing Phil Kelly and giving the book to someone who will realize they have second arm that can hold a melee weapon, plus addition of a few options for said weapons, done...
the_scotsman wrote: Reivers match fairly well with primaris Marines aesthetic and fluff wise but the rest seem like complete anathema to the DW fantasy of a specialized, highly equipped commando unit.
How? Primaris are actually nearly 1:1 equivalents of existing DW stuff, with the exception of bikes every DW unit has direct Primaris lookalike. Really, all DW Primaris need to shine (especially Reivers) is GW firing Phil Kelly and giving the book to someone who will realize they have second arm that can hold a melee weapon, plus addition of a few options for said weapons, done...
Deathwatch (opposed to regular marines, here) are an army of individually specialized veterans, sold to the collector as the most completely customizable marine force out there. Every guy has access to a full range of gear, allowing you to personalize every marine. in their fluff, each marine is from a distinct chapter, and when the army was released, it was released with a boxed game packaged with miniatures designed to exemplify that fantasy: The A-team band of distinct heroes, all with different personalities, appearances and fighting styles, fighting as a unit in a kill team.
In game, obviously, that amounted to jackall, as the 7th ed 40k rules for the DWO models were the most hilariously pointless thing you could possibly conceive of, with a level of point inefficiency to a degree that an 8 year old equipping his marines with random gear would almost certainly have come up with a less useless squad.
But that, at least, was the concept behind the deathwatch. The way they were supposed to work.
Primaris marines have approximately the level of individuality and customizability as Tyranids. 1 sarge can take a (usually fixed) weapon, everybody else picks one weapon and theyre all equipped with that. They all look identical. They don't have any individual weapon customization at all.
You might as well release a Black Templars army with new units full of highly logical edgy atheist marines who wear purple armor and hate swords, trusting only in advanced technology and psychic prowess to save them. "But they're still marines! They mesh perfectly with the Black templars!"
pm713 wrote: You have the wrong Death organisation there.
From what I remember of Tyranids that's actually less customisation. That's kind of impressive making an army less customisable than faceless aliens.
Yep, edited. GW got me with their incredibly repetitive naming conventions again.
"no, you're thinking of the OTHER Raven-themed black space marine chapter that uses stealth tactics and has their own unique rules in the game."
I don't know what you mean. GW doesn't have any silly naming conventions. Like a murdering dreadnought with Murderclaws and the Murderlust rule found on Omnicide called the Murderfang.
Vorian wrote: Phil Kelly has been background only for ages, hasn't he?
For several years now. Irbis just has this ridiculous hard on for Phil Kelly and can't seem to stop himself name checking him in every post, no matter how little sense it makes.
Vorian wrote: Phil Kelly has been background only for ages, hasn't he?
For several years now. Irbis just has this ridiculous hard on for Phil Kelly and can't seem to stop himself name checking him in every post, no matter how little sense it makes.
He had involvement with the 7th edition Eldar codex supposedly. Wouldn't shock me a bit.
There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
It's not like GW is averse to making stuff up just to sell it. I just want a Great Harlequin so the army has someone whose actually meant to be a general.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
One thing they are missing is weapon option for death jesters. You use to be able to equip them with several heavy weapons.
You could also equip troops with 2 pistols or 2 close combat weapons.
I hope they will make a Great Harlequin to release but I am not holding out high hopes. GW might just make it a stat line increase to a regular Harlequin. Of course they could even do the minimum effort approach and make no real new model options compared to the last Codex.
I'd like to see: Great Harlequin, gun options for death jesters, Mimes, Special character.
They kinda had one from 7th edition, which was the Death Jester from that Deathwatch/Harlequin set that had nothing special besides getting Shrouded. Not exactly a bad bonus, but nothing worth remembering for the most part.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
if we're talking models they could take in 2nd ed, we're missing the Avatar, Mimes, Master Mime, Vyper, and Dreadnought (wraithlord) which could all be taken in harlequin armies.
Harlequins aren't getting new models (unless you count the webway gate), so best get used to that. They've got 3 plastic character models (more than some factions), a Troops box, transport, bikes and a hvy support. I really don't see them adding something new (we would have seen it by now), so we'd better get used to just specific rules and strategems.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
if we're talking models they could take in 2nd ed, we're missing the Avatar, Mimes, Master Mime, Vyper, and Dreadnought (wraithlord) which could all be taken in harlequin armies.
harlequin warlocks are shadowseers.
What did Mimes do in particular? You have Shadowseers for Psyker support, the Troupe Master as a buffing guy, then Death Jesters as range support and Solitaires as just combat dudes.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
if we're talking models they could take in 2nd ed, we're missing the Avatar, Mimes, Master Mime, Vyper, and Dreadnought (wraithlord) which could all be taken in harlequin armies.
harlequin warlocks are shadowseers.
What did Mimes do in particular? You have Shadowseers for Psyker support, the Troupe Master as a buffing guy, then Death Jesters as range support and Solitaires as just combat dudes.
bullyboy wrote: Harlequins aren't getting new models (unless you count the webway gate), so best get used to that. They've got 3 plastic character models (more than some factions), a Troops box, transport, bikes and a hvy support. I really don't see them adding something new (we would have seen it by now), so we'd better get used to just specific rules and strategems.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
if we're talking models they could take in 2nd ed, we're missing the Avatar, Mimes, Master Mime, Vyper, and Dreadnought (wraithlord) which could all be taken in harlequin armies.
harlequin warlocks are shadowseers.
What did Mimes do in particular? You have Shadowseers for Psyker support, the Troupe Master as a buffing guy, then Death Jesters as range support and Solitaires as just combat dudes.
Mimes were infiltrators scout types.
And Master Mimes had better stealth than Callidus assassins — they have a particularly annoying habit of leaving calling cards inside time-locked, void&stasis sealed vaults, usually addressed to the person that opens the vault rather than whoever actually owns it.
Despite the Harlequins' agility and acrobatics, I think GW are focusing less on that kind of supernatural stuff. The Solitaire was really the only one that had it in the last Harlequin Codex with its Blitz rule allowing travel through all terrain even normally impassable ones. In story terms, it was explained as supernatural feats of agility like running up sheer vertical walls or appearing inside locked and sealed bunkers, and the implication was that was part of the tradeoff they got in return for being a Solitaire and having their soul forfeit to Slaanesh.
gungo wrote: There really is very few new models harlequins have access to in lore. What are they missing just the MIMES? Maybe warlocks...they could possibly create some named high avatar and some giant stage caravan heavy support flyer. That’s about it.
if we're talking models they could take in 2nd ed, we're missing the Avatar, Mimes, Master Mime, Vyper, and Dreadnought (wraithlord) which could all be taken in harlequin armies.
harlequin warlocks are shadowseers.
What did Mimes do in particular? You have Shadowseers for Psyker support, the Troupe Master as a buffing guy, then Death Jesters as range support and Solitaires as just combat dudes.
Mimes were infiltrators scout types.
That's...something I wouldn't mind if they got. Would give pure Harlequins a way to screen.
the_scotsman wrote: Deathwatch (opposed to regular marines, here) are an army of individually specialized veterans, sold to the collector as the most completely customizable marine force out there. Every guy has access to a full range of gear, allowing you to personalize every marine. in their fluff, each marine is from a distinct chapter, and when the army was released, it was released with a boxed game packaged with miniatures designed to exemplify that fantasy: The A-team band of distinct heroes, all with different personalities, appearances and fighting styles, fighting as a unit in a kill team.
Eh, you can do pretty much the same thing with Primaris, especially seeing terribad DW rules usually mean they are only seen with bolters and frag cannons, anyway. Give Primaris ability to take a melee weapon and you're 95% these as current DW rules stand. It wouldn't be unprecedented, even, DW veterans have access to a lot of melee weapons despite their box being rather sparse in that regard.
Vorian wrote: Phil Kelly has been background only for ages, hasn't he?
No. He wrote both Deathwatch books (well, one was with Cruddace, but the other is on him) with terrible rules* in 7th edition, and is responsible for the mess that was Eldar 6th edition book, then even greater mess when he buffed what was borderline OP into stratosphere writing Eldar 7th edition. Really, he always seem to produce terribly bad rules, unless it's Eldar, then they will be broken in all sorts of ways. His fluff is just as bad, Kelly's Tau series is one BL series I can honestly, 100% sure say was worse than most fanfiction. It was literally dud after dud after dud, with Farsight, all on his own, killing like a billion Imperial soldiers in last one (and that is not an exaggeration).
*beyond terrible, in fact, 7th edition DWfaq written by him introduced two petty nerfs that broke both precedent established in Codex SM and wargear on the model, just so he could make already bad army even worse.
Really, if there is one person I wouldn't mind leaving from GW, it's him. I wonder if he even understands the rules of the game he writes for (besides making his pet faction OP so he can win lunch break matches) - Warhammer Community once published IG list he wrote for one of their live games and it was so full of errors player with it would be laughed out of game store...
Imateria wrote: For several years now. Irbis just has this ridiculous hard on for Phil Kelly and can't seem to stop himself name checking him in every post, no matter how little sense it makes.
I am sorry that unlike you I have reading comprehension and I am capable of reading, in Kelly's own words in interviews, what exactly he was working on. Have you tried turning your brain on and do the same?
No. He wrote both Deathwatch books (well, one was with Cruddace, but the other is on him) with terrible rules* in 7th edition, and is responsible for the mess that was Eldar 6th edition book, then even greater mess when he buffed what was borderline OP into stratosphere writing Eldar 7th edition. Really, he always seem to produce terribly bad rules, unless it's Eldar, then they will be broken in all sorts of ways. His fluff is just as bad, Kelly's Tau series is one BL series I can honestly, 100% sure say was worse than most fanfiction. It was literally dud after dud after dud, with Farsight, all on his own, killing like a billion Imperial soldiers in last one (and that is not an exaggeration).
*beyond terrible, in fact, 7th edition DWfaq written by him introduced two petty nerfs that broke both precedent established in Codex SM and wargear on the model, just so he could make already bad army even worse.
Really, if there is one person I wouldn't mind leaving from GW, it's him. I wonder if he even understands the rules of the game he writes for (besides making his pet faction OP so he can win lunch break matches) - Warhammer Community once published IG list he wrote for one of their live games and it was so full of errors player with it would be laughed out of game store...
Care to offer a source for all that? In interviews for the build up to both Deahwatch and Genestealer Cults it was Phil Kelly who covered all the fluff whilst Simon Grant was responsible for rules, and with Fracture of Biel-Tan it appears it was only the fluff that Kelly was involved in.
We also have James Hewitt, another writer involved with the 7th ed Eldar codex squarely laying the blame at higher ups like Merrit who actively prevented anything like reasonable points costing for Wraithknights and Scatbikes.
fortis kill teams: - min 5 intercessors - aggressors remove the -1 hit for heavy/assault weapons for the whole squad. - inceptors provide fall back & shoot as if the whole unit has fly - reivers disturb morale
Cephalobeard wrote: Normal intercessors just seem better than the average DW Veteran in every way, since they have special issue ammo.
The codex: "Primawatch" jokes were real.
Yeah, pretty much. They were firing Kraken Bolts to begin with. Now they can basically have Rapid Fire Stalker Boltguns if they use Kraken Bolts. Rapid Fire 1 36" Str 4 AP-2 is nothing to sniff at. It doesn't look like Boltstorm Gauntlets or Assault Bolters benefit, though. I would be all over Deathwatch Inceptor Squads if they did.
Well, it looks pretty decent so far. My Deathwatch are kinda stuck in my backlog and not moving anywhere any time soon.
Cephalobeard wrote: Normal intercessors just seem better than the average DW Veteran in every way, since they have special issue ammo.
The codex: "Primawatch" jokes were real.
Yeah, pretty much. They were firing Kraken Bolts to begin with. Now they can basically have Rapid Fire Stalker Boltguns if they use Kraken Bolts. Rapid Fire 1 36" Str 4 AP-2 is nothing to sniff at. It doesn't look like Boltstorm Gauntlets or Assault Bolters benefit, though. I would be all over Deathwatch Inceptor Squads if they did.
Well, it looks pretty decent so far. My Deathwatch are kinda stuck in my backlog and not moving anywhere any time soon.
I present to you, buyers remorse in physical form.
fortis kill teams:
- min 5 intercessors
- aggressors remove the -1 hit for heavy/assault weapons for the whole squad.
- inceptors provide fall back & shoot as if the whole unit has fly
- reivers disturb morale
Pretty interesting, but, i'm not seeing the point of adding in an Aggressor to the unit, unless you want to advance around the table while paying all the extra points for the assault/heavy weapons.
Fall back and shoot is pretty nice.
Reiver morale affects seem pretty pointless.
Shame you can't add in a Hellblaster (by the looks of it). I kinda think it'd be best just running 5 Intercessors and 1 Inceptor and moving around the table with rapid fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has this been posted yet??
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
That relic looks pretty nice though. It essentially gives your units within a 6” bubble of the Character 2 mission tactics they can choose between each time they shoot or fight.
Setup your army wide tactic (well, Infantry, Bike and Dreadnought tactic) as troops, then pick and choose another each turn. Shoot at an elite and charge a troop.
Probably not going to come into play that much though, as I’m expecting DW to still be pretty elite and low on ability to make use of it in an actual game.
Adding a Hellblaster (or optimally, multiple hellblasters) provides its own benefits: you get a hellblaster that can fall back and shoot and a hellblaster with 5 intercessors standing in front of him.
That's really really good.
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Kdash wrote: That relic looks pretty nice though. It essentially gives your units within a 6” bubble of the Character 2 mission tactics they can choose between each time they shoot or fight.
Setup your army wide tactic (well, Infantry, Bike and Dreadnought tactic) as troops, then pick and choose another each turn. Shoot at an elite and charge a troop.
Probably not going to come into play that much though, as I’m expecting DW to still be pretty elite and low on ability to make use of it in an actual game.
You could also use it to give mission tactics to a vehicle, more usefully. I.e. a blackstar or land raider that wouldn't ordinarily get chapter tactics can now have them.
Interesting? sure, but I don't know if it's actually terribly useful as your relic.
_Ness wrote: yes, they can be added. these 5 pictures belong together.
Ok, cool, thanks
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_Ness wrote: hellblasters got heavy weapons, dont they? so they benefit even more, not having the -1hit penalty for moving
They can swap from Rapid Fire to either Heavy or Assault weapons. But, generally the consensus is the rapid fire is just way better.
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the_scotsman wrote: Adding a Hellblaster (or optimally, multiple hellblasters) provides its own benefits: you get a hellblaster that can fall back and shoot and a hellblaster with 5 intercessors standing in front of him.
That's really really good.
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Kdash wrote: That relic looks pretty nice though. It essentially gives your units within a 6” bubble of the Character 2 mission tactics they can choose between each time they shoot or fight.
Setup your army wide tactic (well, Infantry, Bike and Dreadnought tactic) as troops, then pick and choose another each turn. Shoot at an elite and charge a troop.
Probably not going to come into play that much though, as I’m expecting DW to still be pretty elite and low on ability to make use of it in an actual game.
You could also use it to give mission tactics to a vehicle, more usefully. I.e. a blackstar or land raider that wouldn't ordinarily get chapter tactics can now have them.
Interesting? sure, but I don't know if it's actually terribly useful as your relic.
Ooh, i missed that point of giving it to a vehicle if within range of the relic. Could be really interesting with the high rate of fire.
Adding an Aggressor to Intercessors is great IMHO. Equipped with Auto Bolt rifles with Vengeance rounds, they are range 18" AP-2 and can advance and shoot with no penalty. Add in the fact that Aggressor weapons are also 18" (plus the inceptor you will add to fall back and shoot from assault) and you have a nice unit with all weapons in same range band.
Well, I am wondering if Deathwatch will get access to Repulsors (can't remember if they already do) or if Fortis Kill Teams will be able to go in a Blackstar. I also hope that Intercessors can have Power Swords or Chainswords on the Sergeant. I wouldn't mind Xenophase Blades, but that might be getting greedy.
I could see including an Aggressor and some Hellblasters in the squad to make for some better use of the Heavy variant of the Plasma Incinerator. Or even running Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles would be pretty nice. A unit with all Assault Weapons sporting Kraken Bolts might be fun. I still wish Boltstorm Gauntlets and Assault Bolters received SI Ammo. That would be awesome.
Bear in mind of course that Interceptors nominally being better than deathwatch veterans is only really relevant if you’re inclined to run a Primaris or mixed army. If you got into deathwatch to run deathwatch instead of black Primaris, then Primaris could have rapid fire 10 strength 16 ap -6 special ammo and it still wouldn’t be relevant.
Cephalobeard wrote: Normal intercessors just seem better than the average DW Veteran in every way, since they have special issue ammo.
The codex: "Primawatch" jokes were real.
Yeah, pretty much. They were firing Kraken Bolts to begin with. Now they can basically have Rapid Fire Stalker Boltguns if they use Kraken Bolts. Rapid Fire 1 36" Str 4 AP-2 is nothing to sniff at. It doesn't look like Boltstorm Gauntlets or Assault Bolters benefit, though. I would be all over Deathwatch Inceptor Squads if they did.
Well, it looks pretty decent so far. My Deathwatch are kinda stuck in my backlog and not moving anywhere any time soon.
I present to you, buyers remorse in physical form.
The sad thing here is that those models are gorgeous. I've wanted them since they came out. I mean look at the myriad of unique weapons, and compare that to how stale and bland the primaris line is right now. If primaris had those two handed hammers, axes and flamethrower Heavy Bolters, then I could see it. But as it is, they're just bland!
bullyboy wrote: Adding an Aggressor to Intercessors is great IMHO. Equipped with Auto Bolt rifles with Vengeance rounds, they are range 18" AP-2 and can advance and shoot with no penalty. Add in the fact that Aggressor weapons are also 18" (plus the inceptor you will add to fall back and shoot from assault) and you have a nice unit with all weapons in same range band.
If you're doing all Assault Weapons, sure. Stalker Bolt Rifles being able to move and fire without penalty though? Maybe even nicer.
We need more information and leaks before really knowing what to do, though.
Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
bullyboy wrote: Adding an Aggressor to Intercessors is great IMHO. Equipped with Auto Bolt rifles with Vengeance rounds, they are range 18" AP-2 and can advance and shoot with no penalty. Add in the fact that Aggressor weapons are also 18" (plus the inceptor you will add to fall back and shoot from assault) and you have a nice unit with all weapons in same range band.
If you're doing all Assault Weapons, sure. Stalker Bolt Rifles being able to move and fire without penalty though? Maybe even nicer.
We need more information and leaks before really knowing what to do, though.
Stalker Bolt Rifles would become 42" Str 4 AP-3. Not too shabby. I still think the regular Bolt Rifle and Auto Bolt Rifle benefit more though. The regular Bolt Rifle becomes a Rapid Fire Stalker Bolt Rifle. Now, if they gave Stalker Bolt Rifles the sniper abilities (same with Stalker Boltguns) like they should have, NOW you have an awesome combination.
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Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
I almost forgot about Reivers. I hope they have more going for them than a morale debuff. They are neat models.
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Inceptors giving Fly for all intents and purposes is pretty clutch though. Reivers I agree with you though.
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Inceptors giving Fly for all intents and purposes is pretty clutch though. Reivers I agree with you though.
But how does it work, do they strap the Intercessors to the Inceptor with marine baby harnesses so that the whole squad flies around on his back? It seems silly to me that sticking a jump unit in with another unit = the whole unit can fly. That's lazy game design...
Galas wrote: Agressors+Intercessors will be beautifull. Intercessors acting as the extra wounds of Agressors that receive buffs for being in the same squad and that by themselves have good damage output.
I don't think Inceptors and Reivers will be all that relevant, but Agressors+Intercessors will be the dream-team of primaris.
Inceptors giving Fly for all intents and purposes is pretty clutch though. Reivers I agree with you though.
But how does it work, do they strap the Intercessors to the Inceptor with marine baby harnesses so that the whole squad flies around on his back? It seems silly to me that sticking a jump unit in with another unit = the whole unit can fly. That's lazy game design...
We can just give the whole unit Fly without any points increase or give them Fly for a ridiculous price increase.
I thought it was a cool mechanic with the regular Deathwatch teams getting bonuses like that with differing models in the unit
changemod wrote: Bear in mind of course that Interceptors nominally being better than deathwatch veterans is only really relevant if you’re inclined to run a Primaris or mixed army. If you got into deathwatch to run deathwatch instead of black Primaris, then Primaris could have rapid fire 10 strength 16 ap -6 special ammo and it still wouldn’t be relevant.
Well yes, but at the same time, like with the Thousand Sons army release, there's bound to be a lot of folks with an existing, worst-in-the-game deathwatch army who were really hoping GW was going to use their codex to do something like fix the many problems deathwatch have instead of using the book as an excuse to push Primaris marines more.
But then again, I suppose so did Dark Angels players... "oh boy, I can't wait to see how this new codex buffs my Deathwing army!"
GW: look at these great rules we gave Hellblasters!
Pretty much my entire collection of 40k is existing Deathwatch stuff, but oh well. The Primaris are pretty cool and for the most part Kill Teams are a less spammy way of adding them (1 box of Aggressors covers my army?). I like the buffs so far. Hopefully Vets aren't completely worthless. Largely depends on the costs for their unique weapons. Getting my rerolls back is a pretty big deal. It certainly makes rounds not named Hellfire more appealing. The anti-armor Strategem is also pretty exciting.
Crimson wrote: I really don't like the idea of mixing Inceptors into foot-slogging squads. It may be effective, but it just looks stupid.
Agreed, then again I hated adding jump pack marines, bikes and Terminators for mixed units with normal marines. Rules be damned I run marine, Terminator and bike squads separately. Then again I do my five man squads with all the same weapon (four men with frag, plasma gun, hammers etc etc and a Sergeant) will do the same when adding my as yet unpainted starter set Primaris to my Deathwatch army.
Glad to hear that Dreadnoughts are able to have SIA (or is that just Mission Tactics?), I already have four painted up.
I love the mixed Kill Teams personally, but the rules have never really worked, mostly for transportation reasons. Style wise though I love the look of 5 vets a Terminator and 1-2 jump packs. Admittedly, the Bike has never really made sense.
Any confirmation of the Webway Gate's rules?
I've heard it gets setup outside 12" of enemy units and 6" from objectives and units in Reserves can exit the Gate.
But does this bypass the "can only arrive in your DZ on turn 1" restriction?
LunarSol wrote: I love the mixed Kill Teams personally, but the rules have never really worked, mostly for transportation reasons. Style wise though I love the look of 5 vets a Terminator and 1-2 jump packs. Admittedly, the Bike has never really made sense.
Certainly the bike is the weirdest one, poor footsloggers rushing to keep up or the biker just constantly braking? But style wise it is your army, so run it your way
Agreed, then again I hated adding jump pack marines, bikes and Terminators for mixed units with normal marines. Rules be damned I run marine, Terminator and bike squads separately. Then again I do my five man squads with all the same weapon (four men with frag, plasma gun, hammers etc etc and a Sergeant) will do the same when adding my as yet unpainted starter set Primaris to my Deathwatch army.
I really don't mind mixing terminators or gravis with power armour that much. It looks a bit weird, but not totally crazy, and at least they all move about the same pace. But things like jump packs, or even worse, bikes, in a squad of foot-sloggers just makes no sense.
Stalker Bolt rifles with Hellfire Rounds and using the right Mission Tactic adds a nice sniper unit for taking down big nasties. 2+ to wound, rerolling, plus -2 AP. Will peel a few wounds off some monsters.
Galef wrote: Any confirmation of the Webway Gate's rules?
I've heard it gets setup outside 12" of enemy units and 6" from objectives and units in Reserves can exit the Gate.
But does this bypass the "can only arrive in your DZ on turn 1" restriction?
It's actually 3" from objectives, not 6".
As far as I know, the only leak we got about it was from French Wargame Studio. They leaked it before the FAQ was out, so didn't mention anything about that restriction.
The "not in your DZ on T1" is still a beta rule, so I would be very surprised if there was an explicit mention of it in a codex. And the codex was probably written before they came up with that beta rule (since it seems it's at least partially based off of Adepticon results).
So my guess is no.
Galef wrote: Any confirmation of the Webway Gate's rules? I've heard it gets setup outside 12" of enemy units and 6" from objectives and units in Reserves can exit the Gate. But does this bypass the "can only arrive in your DZ on turn 1" restriction?
It's actually 3" from objectives, not 6". As far as I know, the only leak we got about it was from French Wargame Studio. They leaked it before the FAQ was out, so didn't mention anything about that restriction. The "not in your DZ on T1" is still a beta rule, so I would be very surprised if there was an explicit mention of it in a codex. And the codex was probably written before they came up with that beta rule (since it seems it's at least partially based off of Adepticon results). So my guess is no.
Which is sad. It means the rules for the Gate are DOA. Why pay points for something that can be killed in the first turn without even being able to use its ability? The only purpose I can see for it is to "hide" big units like WKs from being alpha struck off the table on turn 1 if you don't get to go first, but that adds yet more points to the already too expensive WK.
Beautiful model though, I'm sure they'll sell enough
Galef wrote: Any confirmation of the Webway Gate's rules?
I've heard it gets setup outside 12" of enemy units and 6" from objectives and units in Reserves can exit the Gate.
But does this bypass the "can only arrive in your DZ on turn 1" restriction?
It's actually 3" from objectives, not 6".
As far as I know, the only leak we got about it was from French Wargame Studio. They leaked it before the FAQ was out, so didn't mention anything about that restriction.
The "not in your DZ on T1" is still a beta rule, so I would be very surprised if there was an explicit mention of it in a codex. And the codex was probably written before they came up with that beta rule (since it seems it's at least partially based off of Adepticon results).
So my guess is no.
Which is sad. It means the rules for the Gate are DOA.
Why pay points for something that can be killed in the first turn without even being able to use its ability?
The only purpose I can see for it is to "hide" big units like WKs from being alpha struck off the table on turn 1 if you don't get to go first, but that adds yet more points to the already too expensive WK.
Beautiful model though, I'm sure they'll sell enough
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It would be incredibly poor judgement of GW to release a BETA rule that shifts the meta for all the armies out there only to release a terrain kit specifically for eldar that directly contradicts and works around the BETA ruling. That would be the definition of pay to play right there. The kit looks gorgeous, buy it for that reason and for some fun interactions with your army. Everything released dfoesn't have to give an edge in a competitive game, especially not faction specific terrain.
Galef wrote: Any confirmation of the Webway Gate's rules?
I've heard it gets setup outside 12" of enemy units and 6" from objectives and units in Reserves can exit the Gate.
But does this bypass the "can only arrive in your DZ on turn 1" restriction?
It's actually 3" from objectives, not 6".
As far as I know, the only leak we got about it was from French Wargame Studio. They leaked it before the FAQ was out, so didn't mention anything about that restriction.
The "not in your DZ on T1" is still a beta rule, so I would be very surprised if there was an explicit mention of it in a codex. And the codex was probably written before they came up with that beta rule (since it seems it's at least partially based off of Adepticon results).
So my guess is no.
Which is sad. It means the rules for the Gate are DOA.
Why pay points for something that can be killed in the first turn without even being able to use its ability?
The only purpose I can see for it is to "hide" big units like WKs from being alpha struck off the table on turn 1 if you don't get to go first, but that adds yet more points to the already too expensive WK.
Beautiful model though, I'm sure they'll sell enough
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It would be incredibly poor judgement of GW to release a BETA rule that shifts the meta for all the armies out there only to release a terrain kit specifically for eldar that directly contradicts and works around the BETA ruling. That would be the definition of pay to play right there. The kit looks gorgeous, buy it for that reason and for some fun interactions with your army. Everything released dfoesn't have to give an edge in a competitive game, especially not faction specific terrain.
FWIW, also, the army specific TERRAIN tends to be indestructible (see Gnarlmaw). I can definitely see a use for one if it's indestructible. Put it in the middle of the board if you're an aggressive army, put it in your deployment zone if you're a CWE gunline.
It's T8, 14W, 3+/5++, so not indestructible.
It's not very clear as to when you deploy it. It could be after both armies have deployed (like infiltrators), or it could be during any of your movement phases (much more useful).
I'll get one because I love the model, and I hope it will work with Wraithlords and Wraithknights (given the size and the picture I'd say it's pretty likely).
If it works with Voidweavers, it might be fun to drop a squadron of 3. But I don't think it will be that competitive, especially if you play with the beta rules.
It would be incredibly poor judgement of GW to release a BETA rule that shifts the meta for all the armies out there only to release a terrain kit specifically for eldar that directly contradicts and works around the BETA ruling. That would be the definition of pay to play right there. The kit looks gorgeous, buy it for that reason and for some fun interactions with your army. Everything released dfoesn't have to give an edge in a competitive game, especially not faction specific terrain.
Or they could've just mirrored the nurgle tree, make the gate utterly indestructible, provide super-cover, hand out mortal wounds and allow nearby units to fall back/advance and shoot/charge willy-nilly without restrictions
I certainly agree that contradicting the Beta rules is a bad idea.
The Gate just needs to have a reason to be taken. If all it does is allow you to drop units out of Reserves, but can be destroyed, than it needs something to make it appealing over just using the Stratagems
For example, it if treats units as "embarked" instead of in Reserves, and can be set up outside the DZ, then it is interesting.
bullyboy wrote: Stalker Bolt rifles with Hellfire Rounds and using the right Mission Tactic adds a nice sniper unit for taking down big nasties. 2+ to wound, rerolling, plus -2 AP. Will peel a few wounds off some monsters.
Makes my T8 Haruspex save on a 5+ (if I mange to get Cat off it will be with a FNP) and at T8 usually people care about my big beast. But you won't. That's big.
I fear once again the Tyranids are going to get smacked down to last tier. The recent revision to deepstrike really, really hurt us bad. Now taking away out Toughness advantage will only secure our fate.
I mean, its removing the toughness advantage only vs an army with a severely disadvantaged volume of attacks and wounds. The only saving grace the DW have ever had is that rerolls generally ensured their limited firepower counted. Most of these things are just a return to what made them kinda sorta work in the first place, because they've not come close since those things were taken away in the Index.
LunarSol wrote: I mean, its removing the toughness advantage only vs an army with a severely disadvantaged volume of attacks and wounds. The only saving grace the DW have ever had is that rerolls generally ensured their limited firepower counted. Most of these things are just a return to what made them kinda sorta work in the first place, because they've not come close since those things were taken away in the Index.
They're a rather difficult army to play aren't they?
I think the gate completely depends on it's "deployment" options.
If it has to be setup in deployment, then it will be 90% useless in the current beta rules. 90% useless because it can, and probably will die in the first 2 turns - but, it also might not...!
However, if it has options to "deep strike" itself then i can see it still having a good amount of worth. But, then it'd depend on whether it can be deep struck on turn 2 and then also have a unit "disembark" and then still move. Which then goes against the whole current rules of the movement phase. I can't see this happening, but it is worth noting the possibility.
Anyway, in order for this gate to be useful in the first place it has to have rules similar to a transport. i.e. once a unit exits the webway it is treated as disembarking from the gate and can still move. Disembarking units happens at the start of the movement phase and likely limited to 1 unit disembarking a turn.
If it isn't treated like a transport/monolith then it is useless. Similar because, in order to put a unit into the webway you have to use the stratagem (across all 3 eldar factions). This stratagem already allows you to setup anywhere on the table more than 9" away from an enemy. If you can't move after disembarking the gate is simply just a completely waste of points.... Unless it allows you to put certain units in the webway for free (which then makes the stratagem completely worthless...)
Will be interesting to see the rules, but, it feels like the beta rules have 100% put this piece in a difficult place.
Kdash wrote: I think the gate completely depends on it's "deployment" options.
If it has to be setup in deployment, then it will be 90% useless in the current beta rules. 90% useless because it can, and probably will die in the first 2 turns - but, it also might not...!
However, if it has options to "deep strike" itself then i can see it still having a good amount of worth. But, then it'd depend on whether it can be deep struck on turn 2 and then also have a unit "disembark" and then still move. Which then goes against the whole current rules of the movement phase. I can't see this happening, but it is worth noting the possibility.
Anyway, in order for this gate to be useful in the first place it has to have rules similar to a transport. i.e. once a unit exits the webway it is treated as disembarking from the gate and can still move. Disembarking units happens at the start of the movement phase and likely limited to 1 unit disembarking a turn.
If it isn't treated like a transport/monolith then it is useless. Similar because, in order to put a unit into the webway you have to use the stratagem (across all 3 eldar factions). This stratagem already allows you to setup anywhere on the table more than 9" away from an enemy. If you can't move after disembarking the gate is simply just a completely waste of points.... Unless it allows you to put certain units in the webway for free (which then makes the stratagem completely worthless...)
Will be interesting to see the rules, but, it feels like the beta rules have 100% put this piece in a difficult place.
Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.
I think there are some uses for Reivers in a mixed Primaris unit. If you plan on using the Assault Bolters for the Intercessors, then why not take a single Reiver too? They have access to the same gun, cost the same amount of points, but also give an extra special rule and have a better pistol. Sure, it's not much of a boost, but every little bit counts.
cuda1179 wrote: I think there are some uses for Reivers in a mixed Primaris unit. If you plan on using the Assault Bolters for the Intercessors, then why not take a single Reiver too? They have access to the same gun, cost the same amount of points, but also give an extra special rule and have a better pistol. Sure, it's not much of a boost, but every little bit counts.
Actually the reiver would be 1 point cheaper due to the assault bolter costing 1 ppm. Also don't forget their blind grenade. I think having 1 is not a bad choice at all even if you were running standard bolt rifles otherwise.
Davespil wrote: Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
Davespil wrote: Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
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Would be funny if GW had to resort to FAQ\in gate to work differently to account for the FAQ rule that was written likely after gate rules were written
Davespil wrote: Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
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Would be funny if GW had to resort to FAQ\in gate to work differently to account for the FAQ rule that was written likely after gate rules were written
I hope they create a totally separate PDF and/or book to address this. We have too few books/supplemental files to bring for a game.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
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Except for all the exceptions: Genestealer Cult, Raven Guard, etc..
I guess we'll know when the rule comes out of beta?
The way they implemented the smite nerf gives me hope that Gw sorta listens/changes the beta rules. The most heard complaiont abouth the smite nerf was from GK/TS players ,with a very valid concern, and it was adressed.
Yeah it totally depends on what the actual rules are. As it stands right now, in order to use the gate you’d have to be deployed from reserve, thus meaning you can’t use it turn 1 outside of your deployment.
Even if it is like a transport, you still couldn’t use it due to how they’ve ruled on the Monolith and it’s stratagem to teleport in units from reserve. Who knows, they might release a stratagem with the kit allowing units already on the table to jump into the webway and out of the gate in the movement phase.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
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Except for all the exceptions: Genestealer Cult, Raven Guard, etc..
WW Gate may or may not be an exception.
Genestealer Cult are the only exception, all the others aren't using Tactical Reserves.
"Ein Interceptor ermöglicht dir, dich zurückzuziehen und zu schießen, als würde die gesamt einheit fliegen können"
A Interceptor allows you to fall back and shoot, as if the whole unit could fly.
alsmost word-by-word translation.
We know it isn't Fly word for word, just the important bit of being able to fall back and shoot.
So basically, and the Intercessors fall back, the Inceptor, is laying down covering fire, giving them ample opportunity to fall back and setup to shoot again.
So, if you want your primaris tactical squad, Deathwatch is the way to do it. 5 intercessors, sargeant with a power sword +1 hellblaster and boom, a Primaris Tactical squad with special weapon. Now they only need a rhino/razorback equivalent.
So, if you want your primaris tactical squad, Deathwatch is the way to do it. 5 intercessors, sargeant with a power sword +1 hellblaster and boom, a Primaris Tactical squad with special weapon. Now they only need a rhino/razorback equivalent.
Well that's what the repulsor is for.
8 intercessors, 1 hellblaster (special weapon), 1 Aggressor (heavy weapon) and a repulsor - you have a super-sized tactical squad in a rhino
Any codex that comes out with an emphasis on a new model range has tended to focus almost exclusively on making the new stuff competitive/amazing while leaving anything with an existing model unbuffed from index levels or only minorly buffed.
Death Guard - Plague marines sidelined, many existing popular DG units like oblits and bikers outright removed
Dark Angels - heavy emphasis on adding new plasma-focused Primaris marines, popular existing ravenwing/deathwing line heavily de-emphasized
Thousand Sons - heavy emphasis on the AOS port units available for the first time, not even a single unique stratagem for the iconic Rubric units
Daemons - new Nurgle range is highly competitive, many existing/older models completely left by the wayside leading to nearly every competitive daemon list being nurgle-focused.
with few exceptions, the codexes without new model ranges have been aimed at the existing hobbyist/collector. But so far with marines, only Blood Angels have avoided the Primaris Only Focus.
Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:
Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.
Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.
A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.
An intercessor has a bolt rifle.
My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.
FWIW, I think mixing Terminators and Vanguards with Vets gives Kill Teams the Death Watch look a lot better than the "build anything" style unit that tries to mix Frag Cannons and Power Maces with Stalker Bolters and Plasma Pistols. These rules not really working at all for the existing Kill Teams is one of my current big disappointments. I'm quite happy if the Primaris teams can make it work, even if the models themselves are greatly simplified.
changemod wrote: Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:
Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.
Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.
A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.
An intercessor has a bolt rifle.
My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.
And what would you see for a Deathwatch army made up with 30k lists?
Primaris are organized, seemingly, based upon the Legions. There's whole squads with Bolt Rifles/variant Bolt Rifles, whole squads with Plasma weapons, whole squads with yaddayadda.
I truly don't expect us to see "Primaris Veterans" in the vein of Sternguard or Vanguard. I've been expecting us to see something like the Mor Deythan, Headhunters, Medusan Immortals, etc down the line. It would be a way for them to add some more unique flavor to the Codex Marine books and their stuff.
changemod wrote: Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:
Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.
Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.
A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.
An intercessor has a bolt rifle.
My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.
I think people still underestimate the time scale the Gathering Storm and everything since has worked on. There're entire companies and even entire Chapters of Primaris who've been kicking around crusading and fighting post-Guilliman wake-up for decades longer than it took Ragnar to go from snotty teenager to Wolf Lord and many a Dark Angel to go from Scout to full-blown Deathwing Veteran (especially if those promotions happen at Gav Thorpe speed).
Davespil wrote: Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
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I would be okay if the Eldar had a model that could be the exception to the new rule. It fits with how they opperate, and their cc units are much easier to control (i.e. I think they're balanced) than those of other factions.
So, if you want your primaris tactical squad, Deathwatch is the way to do it. 5 intercessors, sargeant with a power sword +1 hellblaster and boom, a Primaris Tactical squad with special weapon. Now they only need a rhino/razorback equivalent.
Well that's what the repulsor is for.
8 intercessors, 1 hellblaster (special weapon), 1 Aggressor (heavy weapon) and a repulsor - you have a super-sized tactical squad in a rhino
Think you have to drop an Intercessor since the Aggressor counts as 2 models.
changemod wrote: Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:
Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.
Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.
A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.
An intercessor has a bolt rifle.
My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.
Still really wish they had decided to just replace old marines quicker with the Primaris models and statline rather than this separate monotone unit shenanigans. I love the models way more than the squat, stumpy legged marines and the stats feel more like superhuman soldiers with their superior wounds and attacks.
So you have to take 5 intercessors minimum in a deathwatch primaris squad? That's fairly annoying, if I want to do 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incinerators or something that should be doable. Would let people buy one small box of each unit type and make a couple of squads out of it.
ElvisJuice wrote: So you have to take 5 intercessors minimum in a deathwatch primaris squad? That's fairly annoying, if I want to do 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incinerators or something that should be doable. Would let people buy one small box of each unit type and make a couple of squads out of it.
Same with the Vets in mixed Deathwatch squads. They're the Objective Secured tax if that makes any sense.
Yeah but with normal deathwatch veterans they've got loads of weapon options (since they're veterans). This is like needing to take 5 basic tactical marines, doesn't make sense with Deathwatch
changemod wrote: Honestly I’m mostly annoyed because there’s a heavy contradiction here:
Deathwatch are made up of veterans, their basic troops and all specialists are what’d be first company units in other armies with the exception of bikers, who are still fluff-wise a veteran riding a bike, right? Furthermore, their whole deal is high equipment flexibility.
Meanwhile, Primaris don’t actually have a veteran unit yet, and are low flexibility with very standardised loadouts. Yes, a mixed Primaris unit has some flexibility in that it recruits from five different units comboed together, but the individual units are the same as before.
A deathwatch veteran starts out with a bolter and chainsword, and can take from a broad list of combi, special, heavy and melee weapons. He’s a sternguard equivalent.
An intercessor has a bolt rifle.
My point being, Primaris as they currently are mesh very poorly with deathwatch thematics, so yes it absolutely is kinda annoying that they’re the thing being pushed by this codex and it’s previews.
In a way, I really do [please do not lynch me] think that GW should have totally axed the marine line, and revamped it with Primaris instead of creating this odd hybrid we currently have. It would have been painful for those who have recently bought marine armies, but in the long run it would be less awkward for them to work with. As it stands now, the Primaris are the future, and five years down the road it stand to reason we will see a Codex: Primaris Astartes that is fully flushed out with infantry, tanks, flyers and heroes. But for now, we're left juggling two different product lines, with strange rules as to why older models cannot be used with the newer ones.
ElvisJuice wrote: Yeah but with normal deathwatch veterans they've got loads of weapon options (since they're veterans). This is like needing to take 5 basic tactical marines, doesn't make sense with Deathwatch
Which is the balancing act. The Primaris Marines are, individually, better than the Deathwatch Veterans due to their additional wound and such. But a Deathwatch Veteran Kill Team has infinitely more weapon options. Want a squad with maximum effectiveness, take five Combi-Plasma Veterans with Chainswords. They have more attacks and better weapons than the Primaris. They don't feel like a tax. Whereas Intercessors do feel a bit like a tax. Sure, run a Power Sword Sergeant and give him a Grenade Launcher and you have yourself a decent Marine out of the five.
Any codex that comes out with an emphasis on a new model range has tended to focus almost exclusively on making the new stuff competitive/amazing while leaving anything with an existing model unbuffed from index levels or only minorly buffed.
Death Guard - Plague marines sidelined, many existing popular DG units like oblits and bikers outright removed
Oblits are bikes were not DG units. They were units DG used, because they abused the toughness bonus.
Dark Angels - heavy emphasis on adding new plasma-focused Primaris marines, popular existing ravenwing/deathwing line heavily de-emphasized
Don't have a comment on this one, because I don't know it well enough.
Thousand Sons - heavy emphasis on the AOS port units available for the first time, not even a single unique stratagem for the iconic Rubric units
Soul Flare. And the FAQde-emphasized Tzaangors and boosted Rubrics, so...
Daemons - new Nurgle range is highly competitive, many existing/older models completely left by the wayside leading to nearly every competitive daemon list being nurgle-focused.
Nurgle has new toys that have synergies with DG. The other gods will get theirs when it's time. There are viable non-nurgle lists (though many still take nurglings).
Togusa wrote: It would have been painful for those who have recently bought marine armies, but in the long run it would be less awkward for them to work with.
Actually it wouldn't be so painful because if old Marines are no longer supported, players can then just use their old marines as Primaris marines It is exactly the same as using old metal Terminators on 25mm bases. Or using the old metal Bloodthirster that is half the size of the new plastic one
But having both exist makes it harder because players need BOTH regular Marines AND Primaris and my use the right models. GW knew exactly what they were doing.
So I guess I'm the minority who think the new primaris marines make a lot of sense with deathwatch rules?
The basic intercessors have three bolt weapon variants all of which can (presumably) use specialized ammo, with options to add inceptors, reivers, and gravis marines, all of whom also have weapons with similar ranges that can also take advantage of specialized ammo, and the entire unit can have assault guns while being adequate to good in a fight. Even hellblasters can at least match the range and potential run+shoot capability.
Generally speaking they work far better with deathwatch rules than normal deathwatch do imo.
Yeah, one of the big problems with normal Vets is that you can take all these special weapons, but you still pay for SIA that makes it so that, to a degree, the efficient loadout is a standard bolter anyway. Intercessors are basically that originally, but SIA combines betterl with the improved Bolt Rifle statline with the extra range and AP.
LunarSol wrote: Yeah, one of the big problems with normal Vets is that you can take all these special weapons, but you still pay for SIA that makes it so that, to a degree, the efficient loadout is a standard bolter anyway. Intercessors are basically that originally, but SIA combines betterl with the improved Bolt Rifle statline with the extra range and AP.
One of the ways to fix that is to make them pay points for the regular Bolter (and therefore make them cheaper to kit out with the other weapons) or not let replacement weapons...replace them.
Combi-weapons and storm shields are the useful things to take on regular deathwatch veterans. Replacing their bolter with a plasma gun or whatever doesn't typically make sense.
Davespil wrote: Or, the beta rules might have made this better. The Beta rules say you can't deepstrike outside of your deployment turn 1, but this allows you to circumvent this rule.
Actually the beta rules doesn't allow units that arrive from Tactical Reserves to arrive outside their DZ on turn 1
So it is gonna be very hard to circumvent that if the WW Gate brings in Tactical Reserves, even for the most rules lawyery of rules lawyers
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Do you even know how rules work? Special rules circumvent the normal rules all the time, that's their purpose.
If you advance and then shoot assault weapons you have a -1 to hit. Battle focus: you dont suffer a -1 to hit while firing an assault weapon even if you advanced this turn. See, the special rule circumvented the normal rule. That's its purpose. The portal can have a rule that let's you ignore the 1st turn restriction of not being able to deploy outside of your DZ. Sheesh...
the fortification/portal sounds fun if it is true.
this is awesome. I hope there will be more so we can build a craftworld table.
