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Post by: peteralmo
Full disclosure I haven't based this analysis on complex math hammer, but rather on plain and simple rules as written comparisons, point cost comparisons, and a little nod to fluff, though I'm not really appealing to the fluff all the strongly. The little fluff argument is that the eldar are supposed to be exponentially more advanced in there technology, far outpacing astartes, admech, and tau, and really only being rivaled by necrons, with even they lagging
behind a bit; but as we will see the imperium/tau equivalents are far more technologically advanced. End fluff bit, down to the common sense stuff. The wraithknight costs 510ish points with the double heavy wraithcannon loadout, which we'll consider the baseline loadout, with sword and board being a bit cheaper, and suncannon being quite a bit more expensive. This price point brings it over a standard imperial knight or riptide, but a bit below a
dominus class knight/ However the comparison isn't great because in the case of the imperial knights they have more firepower overall in the built in melta/flamers and turret mounted weapons, so if you try to make the wraithknight roughly equal by adding a few bright lances or starcannons to it it basically brings it into dominus points territory. For the price point the wraithknight is T8 (comparable), 24 wounds (standard knight, not dominus level), 3+ save
with no base invulnerable or stratagem support to compensate (this is where everything falls apart). IE it's flimsy as all get out. The knights, including dominus knights have access to 4++ with warlord trait and 3++ with stratagem. The riptide has access to a 3++ with ion overload or whatever it's called, as well as as much savior protocol drone support as you want to spend points on. The wraithknight has none of these options, and is priced at the ceiling
of this class of units in dominus territory. It seems fairly obvious to me that the defensive capabilities of the unit needs to be drastically buffed, giving it access to a 3++ or minimum 4++ through a stratagem or something, or it's total cost needs to top out at like 400-425 points if it's going to stay as is. Given it's competition among other codices it's wildly underpowered/overcosted/inefficient.
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Post by: Tibs Ironblood
I'll be honest I'm still salty about how OP it was in 7th that it's current garbage tier status does not bother me as much as it probably should.
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Post by: peteralmo
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:I'll be honest I'm still salty about how OP it was in 7th that it's current garbage tier status does not bother me as much as it probably should.
I can appreciate the honesty.
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Post by: pm713
I've never thought the WK should exist so I don't really care.
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Post by: peteralmo
pm713 wrote:I've never thought the WK should exist so I don't really care.
Unfortunately this comment is basically nonsensical and as such doesn't warrant any meaningful response.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Can I be salty over how no one ever uses paragraph breaks anymore and just posts giant walls of text like Dorn being asked to update his Spacebook status?
Seriously, it's a slog to read through dense text blocks like that.
That said, I don't know if you have a "beef" since you still have one of the strongest armies in the game even without the Wraithknight, but yes, there is valid concern for any unit that is basically "useless" in most metas.
Basically all we can do is bother GW about the weaker units via emailing (or writing a nice letter and dropping it in the post) them and offering feedback. The more data they have to highlight that there is something wrong, the more they're able to work back to the problem and try and fix it.
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Post by: Crimson
It is really unfortunate situation. It is a cool model and should be usable. I'd prefer if they buffed its performance somehow, even if that meant increasing the point cost. Eldar Knights should be more powerful than the Imperial ones.
They were a menace in the last edition, and as a result they got nerfed to the ground. Same thing happened to Centurions, they're unusable now too. It is really not a good way to handle things.
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Post by: Desubot
Its a cool model.
it suffers from its crimes in 7th as does the centurions
but like the centurions and imperial knights it shouldn't exist in normal 40k
the scale creep and eggs in a basket was and is getting out of hand.
basically game playablity vs fluff or whatever.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Crimson wrote:It is really unfortunate situation. It is a cool model and should be usable. I'd prefer if they buffed its performance somehow, even if that meant increasing the point cost. Eldar Knights should be more powerful than the Imperial ones.
They were a menace in the last edition, and as a result they got nerfed to the ground. Same thing happened to Centurions, they're unusable now too. It is really not a good way to handle things.
I don't know if they should be "more powerful" than the Imperial ones since they're basically two different kinds of units (on being a fast moving, but lighter, knight and the other being a heavy plodding tank), but something needs to be done to make them less pants for sure.
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Post by: peteralmo
 ClockworkZion wrote:Can I be salty over how no one ever uses paragraph breaks anymore and just posts giant walls of text like Dorn being asked to update his Spacebook status?
Seriously, it's a slog to read through dense text blocks like that.
That said, I don't know if you have a "beef" since you still have one of the strongest armies in the game even without the Wraithknight, but yes, there is valid concern for any unit that is basically "useless" in most metas.
Basically all we can do is bother GW about the weaker units via emailing (or writing a nice letter and dropping it in the post) them and offering feedback. The more data they have to highlight that there is something wrong, the more they're able to work back to the problem and try and fix it.
Added breaks for you. And yes, they are strong, it wasn't a critique on the state of the meta, or of 40k at large, but on a specific unit. Tyranids have been really strong also, but if a tyranid player complained about helldrakes being really bad now I'd have no problem commiserating with him.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 peteralmo wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Can I be salty over how no one ever uses paragraph breaks anymore and just posts giant walls of text like Dorn being asked to update his Spacebook status?
Seriously, it's a slog to read through dense text blocks like that.
That said, I don't know if you have a "beef" since you still have one of the strongest armies in the game even without the Wraithknight, but yes, there is valid concern for any unit that is basically "useless" in most metas.
Basically all we can do is bother GW about the weaker units via emailing (or writing a nice letter and dropping it in the post) them and offering feedback. The more data they have to highlight that there is something wrong, the more they're able to work back to the problem and try and fix it.
Added breaks for you. And yes, they are strong, it wasn't a critique on the state of the meta, or of 40k at large, but on a specific unit. Tyranids have been really strong also, but if a tyranid player complained about helldrakes being really bad now I'd have no problem commiserating with him.
Appreciated, the change makes reading much easier.
Helldrakes are a CSM unit so I'm not sure you're example works. Maybe if you said Harpies it fit more.
The point was that I feel a "beef" is much heavier than a concern. Eldar players having a beef, to me, suggest they have an unplayable army that is basically trash. I guess it's just the way I mentally weight descriptors or something, but I see this as less of a problem than, say, Vanilla Marines who don't run Guilliman or Grey Knights. It's a problem, sure, but it's not the biggest one in the game.
A thought about the massive points cost on the Wraithknight: it's likely pointed that way due to Eldar synergies. Much like how Vanilla Marines are points costed to balance for having Guilliman around, even if you're running another chapter who doesn't take him.
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Post by: IronBrand
peteralmo wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Can I be salty over how no one ever uses paragraph breaks anymore and just posts giant walls of text like Dorn being asked to update his Spacebook status?
Seriously, it's a slog to read through dense text blocks like that.
That said, I don't know if you have a "beef" since you still have one of the strongest armies in the game even without the Wraithknight, but yes, there is valid concern for any unit that is basically "useless" in most metas.
Basically all we can do is bother GW about the weaker units via emailing (or writing a nice letter and dropping it in the post) them and offering feedback. The more data they have to highlight that there is something wrong, the more they're able to work back to the problem and try and fix it.
Added breaks for you. And yes, they are strong, it wasn't a critique on the state of the meta, or of 40k at large, but on a specific unit. Tyranids have been really strong also, but if a tyranid player complained about helldrakes being really bad now I'd have no problem commiserating with him.
I'd be more concerned about why a Tyranid player was trying to run heldrakes in that case.
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Post by: Rocmistro
It actually makes perfect sense in his own subjective (read: opinion) and you did respond.
I too think that the Wraithknight was broken in 7th and as such don't care. It's not like Eldar players don't have a world of great stuff to choose from.
Take Alaitoc, there's your defensive buff.
Ok let me soften this up a bit. Given resources (attention) is limited, I'll admit it probably seems overpriced. But there are literally about 1,000 other things I'd rather have GW working on fixing before worrying about the Wrathknight. Again, it's not like CWE are hurting here.
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Post by: Xenomancers
What I would like to see happen is the WK gets probably about a 100 point base drop and the suncannon gets a big buff. It should just be straight up 2d6 shots str 9 ap-3 flat 3 damage.
The Wraith sword should be deadlier as well. Give it something special against titanic units. 2d6 damage vs titanic.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Just as a nitpick...adding breaks doesn't do any good if you're breaking up in the middle of a sentence. They're supposed to exist at the end of a sentence, and the next paragraph should be a new thought; not just a break to say "I broke it up".
In regards to the model, it's an awesome model and should not be useless at all. I've also heard horror stories about how bad it was in 7th (the only guy at my store who had it was on my "avoid at all costs" list, because of how much of a TFG he was). No model or unit should ever be useless; if it is, it needs to be adjusted. But it also shouldn't be as powerful as everyone said it was in 7th. If it's an auto-take, no matter what the situation, it needs to be tweaked as well.
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Post by: Galef
The reason I am salty is because I had the WK has the same statline as an Imperial Knight, but doesn't have a comparable loadout.
An IK gets to be shooty, assaulting and have a 5++ all in the same build.
WKs have to pick 1 of the 3. That of itself is fine, Eldar are meant to specialized. But why on Khorne's red earth do we pay over 100pts MORE for the privilege of being LESS versatile.
WKs should have been even with IKs from the start of 8E and now they should actually be less because the IK strats and abilities are easily on par or better than any buff a WK "could" have.
Players should not be punished for GW's design mistakes of a prior editions, but that is the only explanation for the WK's cost in 8E
Drop the WK about 100pts, give it Spirit Stones at minimum and I'll be happy with the WK again.
As it stands, 3 Prisms are cheaper and cause over twice the damage a WK can do.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Galef wrote:WKs had to pick 1 of the 3. That of itself is fine, Eldar are meant to specialized. But why on Khorne's red earth do we pay over 100pts MORE for the privilege of being LESS versatile.
<snark>Eldar tax.</snark>
More seriously, it's likely due to the studio trying to balance the benefits from synergies in the Eldar book (Fortune, -1 to hit army trait, ect) regardless of what you actually take and use.
Basically the issue, much like the issue Vanilla Marines face, is being forced to pay for a tax the wrong way: on the units that might be affected by a certain option over charging for what gives you the option.
We'd be seeing a lot less of this kind of problem if army traits cost points, and models that provide buffs were more expensive over making the models that can be buffed more expensive.
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Post by: pm713
peteralmo wrote:pm713 wrote:I've never thought the WK should exist so I don't really care.
Unfortunately this comment is basically nonsensical and as such doesn't warrant any meaningful response.[/quote
My comment made perfectly good sense. Why the need to lash out?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
pm713 wrote: peteralmo wrote:pm713 wrote:I've never thought the WK should exist so I don't really care.
Unfortunately this comment is basically nonsensical and as such doesn't warrant any meaningful response.
My comment made perfectly good sense. Why the need to lash out?
Eldar tears? </snark>
More likely that it doesn't contribute to the discussion in what most see as a meaningful way much like how if someone posted that they don't think Primaris should exist in a thread discussing the balance issues of primaris. I mean, cool, that's your opinion and all, but does it do anything to discuss if there is a balance issue or not? Not really.
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Post by: Crimson
I think many players see their army as more specific things than just 'Craftworld Eldar' or 'Space Marines'. My Space Marine army is a non-ultramarine Primaris army, and existence of Guilliman does not help me in any way. Similarly my fledgling Eldar army is (or was about to be) Iyanden style wraith construct army, so there being some powerful builds that do not fit that theme doesn't help me. All units in the codex should be usable, period.
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Post by: peteralmo
Lol, not sure how I managed to pair helldrakes with nids hehe, brain fart.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Crimson wrote:I think many players see their army as more specific things than just 'Craftworld Eldar' or 'Space Marines'. My Space Marine army is a non-ultramarine Primaris army, and existence of Guilliman does not help me in any way. Similarly my fledgling Eldar army is (or was about to be) Iyanden style wraith construct army, so there being some powerful builds that do not fit that theme doesn't help me. All units in the codex should be usable, period.
I (and my Primaris Imperial Fists) definitely agree. The problem is how GW is balancing the books is based on the most powerful possible build over what we're actually running. I bet if we saw points for army traits we'd see a lot of units fit better in the meta by not charging them for it directly.
The Black Templar codex did a pretty good job of this as an example. You were required to take a vow, and those vows cost points. This helped balance them amongst each other while also balanced the army. This wild west of free bonuses just slaps units around that aren't always benefiting from the best options resulting in a lot of stuff that would otherwise be alright being worthless due to paying a points tax for options they aren't using.
Basically this is just another thing in 8th edition that I feel could be tighter than it is and would help tighten the game up more.
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Post by: bullyboy
I don't give a rats arse what people thought about the WK in 7th, we're in 8th now so please try to keep up. As for Eldar army being top tier, great unless you don't play Alaitoc and field Reapers/Spears. The rest of the codex (shall we say the VAST majority) is average, which is fine by me.
However, the wraithknight is not average, it's junk. There are so many things that need to happen to make it better. I'm hoping we see something in the next Chapter Approved, but in all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if we see an Eldar Knight codex down the line, especially with how popular the Imperial one is. Simplest short term solution would be a significant points decrease to tie it over. The suncannon is a joke, for that points it should be a flat Heavy 12, not 2D6.
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Post by: Justyn
Eldar Knights should be more powerful than the Imperial ones.
This is an opinion that adds nothing to the discussion. More Advanced =/= more powerful. While I agree it should be worth its points, I do not agree it should be more powerful. Mostly it should work differently. Factions should feel different.
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Post by: Galef
ClockworkZion wrote: Galef wrote:WKs had to pick 1 of the 3. That of itself is fine, Eldar are meant to specialized. But why on Khorne's red earth do we pay over 100pts MORE for the privilege of being LESS versatile.
<snark>Eldar tax.</snark> More seriously, it's likely due to the studio trying to balance the benefits from synergies in the Eldar book (Fortune, -1 to hit army trait, ect) regardless of what you actually take and use. Basically the issue, much like the issue Vanilla Marines face, is being forced to pay for a tax the wrong way: on the units that might be affected by a certain option over charging for what gives you the option. We'd be seeing a lot less of this kind of problem if army traits cost points, and models that provide buffs were more expensive over making the models that can be buffed more expensive.
Setting aside the fact that some abilities cost the price of a Psyker to cast said powers, IK now have synergy with Houses, strats and WL traits So as far as I am concerned, both have comparable synergies and one should not pay more than the other just because said synergies exist. You should pay for the synergies, you shouldn't have to pay for the POSSIBILITY of the synergies The reason I feel WKs should be at least slightly cheaper than IKs is because no WK build (outside of the even more expensive FW versions) can be shooting, assaulty and have a 5++. The Sword and Shield option only get 2 measly shoulder guns and is way more expensive that an IK with only melee weapons The dual HWC WK doesn't have an invul AT ALL The Suncannon/Shield option is the closet to an IK but is nearly 200pts more and is still weaker than a Gatling IK If Chapter Approved does not fix this in the next update, my WK will be making a one-way trip to eBay, which is sad because its a great model. -
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Galef wrote: ClockworkZion wrote: Galef wrote:WKs had to pick 1 of the 3. That of itself is fine, Eldar are meant to specialized. But why on Khorne's red earth do we pay over 100pts MORE for the privilege of being LESS versatile.
<snark>Eldar tax.</snark>
More seriously, it's likely due to the studio trying to balance the benefits from synergies in the Eldar book (Fortune, -1 to hit army trait, ect) regardless of what you actually take and use.
Basically the issue, much like the issue Vanilla Marines face, is being forced to pay for a tax the wrong way: on the units that might be affected by a certain option over charging for what gives you the option.
We'd be seeing a lot less of this kind of problem if army traits cost points, and models that provide buffs were more expensive over making the models that can be buffed more expensive.
Setting aside the fact that some abilities cost the price of a Psyker to cast said powers, IK now have synergy with Houses, strats and WL traits
Most psykers are pretty cheap and they don't pay for their powers which can lead to other imbalances, which seem to be soaked up by points costing the potential targets of said buffs to compensate. Which is a bad way to get a tightly balanced game. Sure you pay for the ability to use X powers a turn and deny X on your opponent's turn, but you don't pay for the specific powers themselves and that's where the real issue comes from.
At least the knights are being charged for their best possible synergy combos as well, which has killed some builds due to not getting enough return for the possible buffs they can have.
Galef wrote:So as far as I am concerned, both have comparable synergies and one should not pay more than the other just because said synergies exist.
You should pay for the synergies, you shouldn't have to pay for the POSSIBILITY of the synergies
Agreed 9,001%. The problem is we're definitely paying for the possibility right now, which is what drags decent units down via rather unreasonable price tags. It only gets worse if the unit gets cheaper because then the unit isn't costed properly when people DO use those synergies.
Galef wrote:The reason I feel WKs should be at least slightly cheaper than IKs is because no WK build (outside of the even more expensive FW versions) can be shooting, assaulty and have a 5++.
I can agree with this. Specialization should be cheaper to a point, or be balanced in other ways.
Galef wrote:The Sword and Shield option only get 2 measly shoulder guns and is way more expensive that an IK with only melee weapons
Even a melee only Knight still has a heavy stubber or melta gun. But yes, there is a bit of a problem here.
That feels pretty silly. A built in 5++ or maybe a save versus hits (holofields) would fit the model pretty well and should be built in.
Galef wrote:The Suncannon/Shield option is the closet to an IK but is nearly 200pts more and is still weaker than a Gatling IK
Definitely a balance issue.
Galef wrote:If Chapter Approved does not fix this in the next update, my WK will be making a one-way trip to eBay, which is sad because its a great model.
If playing this game for any amount of time has taught me anything: never ebay anything if you're still playing the army. Stuff makes a come back all the time.
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Post by: SirWeeble
Do Eldar have stratagems or spells that can compensate for its stupid price? Also, automatic -1 to hit with the Altoic chapter tactic wouldn't hurt or the 1/2 effect from damage table from Iyanden. Points vs points alot of Eldar units seem like a ripoff, but not every army can just make a unit -3 to hit for a turn.
I think those factors may contribute to its high cost - but it is still overpriced.
I think it suffers from the same caution GW used with knights cost when the edition started. Knights were pretty over-costed before the codex. I bet WK will get a price drop when the FAQ comes out.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Once again we have a unit paying for its sins in a different edition. That's just how GW operates.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Once again we have a unit paying for its sins in a different edition. That's just how GW operates.
I feel like it's more a unit paying for the sins of how broken it could be given specific circumstances. Considering the playtesting being done I feel like we're paying for how great a unit COULD be over how good it actually IS in other lists.
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Post by: Bharring
Well, combining the Alaitoc strat with Lightning Reflexes (I believe it's got Fly) would give you -2 to hit. But where are you getting -3?
Conceal? Not infantry, can't target.
Drain? CC only, can't stack with Alaitoc
Baharroth? No way to make that impact ranged attacks
The army can do a -3 or worse (much worse), but not many at once, and I'm not sure they can do it on the Wraithknight.
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Post by: Elbows
I'm not a tournament/meta gamer, but I also don't run Alaitoc or Eldar Soup.
The Wraithknight is one of the few "garbage" units in the Eldar codex in that it's simply so expensive and so unimpressive I wouldn't buy or build one (which is a shame, since I'd like one "centrepiece" model...and thought the Wraithknight would be it.).
All you need to do is look at the datasheet to see how poor it is. It's a genuine penalty you're instilling on yourself. Do I really care? Not tremendously, I just thought it'd be a fun hobby project. It sucks I don't have anything to take to silly super-heavy slugfests though.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Humm - when an ability is so good you have to nerf units that can use them. Seems like the problem is the ability. The ability of -1 to hit stacking needs removed from the game - straight up removed. Did they learn nothing from invisibility? I guess not.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Xenomancers wrote:Humm - when an ability is so good you have to nerf units that can use them. Seems like the problem is the ability. The ability of -1 to hit stacking needs removed from the game - straight up removed. Did they learn nothing from invisibility? I guess not.
I don't think they should be removed as much as the game needs ways to balance them (say, being able to ready a unit instead of moving for a +1 to hit as an example). We have too many penalties and not enough bonuses in the game in my opinion.
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Post by: Bharring
Why should you be able to fire at Rangers with a heavy bolter on the move without the movement penalty? Should Rangers be unable to be Concealed?
Stacking -to-hit isn't necessarily a problem. CWE do it too easily too cheaply, and there's no hardcap. Those are the problems.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
The title of this thread is confusing. You have posited a question you clearly believe you know the answer to and suggest fixes. Why not just call the topic "What's wrong the WK and how to fix it"?
Regardless, my main bud and 40k opponent is an Eldar player and we have discussed at length the weaknesses of the Wraithknight in comparison to the IK.
I completely agree that it is one or multiple of the following things;
1. Overcosted.
2. Not durable enough.
3. Not enough versatility compared to the IK (though no heavy unit of equivalent class has this, because they don't have their own special codex with stratagems, warlord traits etc).
Something needs to change for sure. The WK cannot exist as it is now when IK exist as they are. Similarly with Riptides. The Stompa is in a similar position to the WK in that it is massively overcosted and underperforming.
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Post by: Galef
WKs do not have FLY, so cannot benefit from Lightning Fast reflexes. I am ok with this, but it is important to note that a WK can only receive -1 to be hit and even that can be ignored within 12".
Considering a WK SHOULD be getting close to take advantage of it's melee potential (that it is paying for) I find it hard to count that -1 to hit as being of value enough to merit a points increase. Also consider that Ulthwe or Iyanden are far better traits for the WK. And IKs can get similar abilities as those traits
Point is, just because Eldar can buff the bejesus out of other units, doesn't mean the WK is part of that. Most buffs only affect Infantry, Bikes or units that FLY. The WK isn't any of those things. The last CA made Eldar Psykers more expensive for good reason, because THOSE are the source of most buffs
So why is the WK paying for buffs it cannot benefit from again?
Oh yeah, it isn't. It's paying for being OP last edition
-
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Post by: fe40k
Three things for this discussion:
1. GW doesn't use calculations when determining points; they use "this feels about right" - and this has been stated by their design team(s).
2. Codex creep
3. 8th edition is not 7th edition - arguments about "your army was OP in that edition, making it fine for it to be overprice", are not relevant. -- Unless, you believe armies should come and go in cycles, from OP to UP. Which is just... wrong.
GW simply cannot design a balanced, or even close to it, game; this has been evident since 3rd/3.5 edition.
It's a real shame, but what can you do? Best thing you've got is hope - hope that your army is the one that gets to play this edition; and hope that they're not blatantly overpowered (so they're not "fotm", and can be enjoyed).
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Post by: roflmajog
Bharring wrote:Well, combining the Alaitoc strat with Lightning Reflexes (I believe it's got Fly) would give you -2 to hit. But where are you getting -3?
Conceal? Not infantry, can't target.
Drain? CC only, can't stack with Alaitoc
Baharroth? No way to make that impact ranged attacks
The army can do a -3 or worse (much worse), but not many at once, and I'm not sure they can do it on the Wraithknight.
It doesn't even have fly so it can get a -1 to hit at best.
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Post by: Galef
fe40k wrote:Three things for this discussion: 1. GW doesn't use calculations when determining points; they use "this feels about right" - and this has been stated by their design team(s). 2. Codex creep 3. 8th edition is not 7th edition - arguments about "your army was OP in that edition, making it fine for it to be overprice", are not relevant. -- Unless, you believe armies should come and go in cycles, from OP to UP. Which is just... wrong.
1) we aren't discussing GW using calculations, we are stating that 100pts more than an IK does NOT "feel right" 2) WKs were more expensive than IKs in their Indexes. Codex creep made this even worse 3) We are not saying this is how it is supposed to be, we are saying this is clearly how it is. And yes, it is wrong GW saw the outcry for the WK being OP in 7th and over-corrected, by a long shot. -
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Post by: Bharring
So, wouldn't that mean it gets less direct faction support than IKs?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grav weaponry and Dev Cents went same way. OP last edition, trash now.
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Post by: Grumblewartz
I think all Titan class units should be great at killing other titans, rather than making them super good against everything. Then the game just turns into my giant smashy things against your giant smashy things. Basically, I guess I am arguing that they should shine in large games and suffer terribly in smaller games. But...that's just my personal preference.
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Post by: Galef
 Grumblewartz wrote:I think all Titan class units should be great at killing other titans, rather than making them super good against everything. Then the game just turns into my giant smashy things against your giant smashy things. Basically, I guess I am arguing that they should shine in large games and suffer terribly in smaller games. But...that's just my personal preference.
I'd be ok with this.
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Post by: Dysartes
 An Actual Englishman wrote:Similarly with Riptides. The Stompa is in a similar position to the WK in that it is massively overcosted and underperforming.
The Riptides and other stupid big Tau suits just shouldn't exist.
With the Stompa, I'm willing to wait for the Ork 'dex and see what changes with it before shouting that it needs tweaks as well - at least it has that opportunity 
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Post by: Marmatag
Short answer? No you don't.
You could add a Wraithknight to your already top-tier soup army and the rest of us would still struggle against your list.
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Post by: Vaktathi
The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.
That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.
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Post by: peteralmo
 Vaktathi wrote:The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.
That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.
Your last point is one I hear a lot, and one I'll never understand. GW is a huge company when compared against other companies within it's industry. Why is the narrative that they simply don't have the man power to analyze every unit so robust and dispersed so easily. They are a huge company, with a lot of resources at there disposal. My expectation is that before each chapter approved or even big FAQ, they should have analyzed every single unit in
the game they created and considered how they could better tweak said unit. And beyond that I just want brutal honesty and transparency from this company, almost always we get the exact opposite. Consider WOTC. When they update their banned and restricted lists, they include sentences similar to this: "when we banned X a few months ago we thought it would have Y effect and make Z healthier. We were wrong, it didn't have the desired effect, and
as such we are now unbanning X." I would love to read something like that from GW just once. Such as: "We understand a segment of the community wanted to see Dark Reapers points cost increase far more severely, but we feel comfortable with the adjustment we made." Or, "we understand the Wraithknight feels overcosted and underpowered given the newer knight class unit rule sets, however we still feel they shouldn't be adjusted (pretty awful
explanation but at least they admit people are having this consternation over the issue." Or God-forbid, "We felt this unit was so good and so over-represented in the recent past we are purposefully pricing it at a very noncompetitive rate."
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Post by: bullyboy
GW should be looking at what Imperial Knights have done for all Imperial forces and be going "hmmmm"
Then they release an Aeldari knight codex that has several classes of knights.
Make the current one into 3 separate classes...
Assault (sword and board, +1 attack and WS)
Guardian (shield and either suncannon/hvy wraithcannon)
Heavy (Hvy wraithcannon and either second wraithcannon or suncannon)
Add Spirit stones as standard and adjust points
Create new smaller scout class knight with twin pulse laser, or lance and secondary weapon.
Done
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Post by: Elbows
I'd really rather not get more Eldar knight plastic kits (and I don't imagine we will). If they ever do another, a form of Eldar super heavy tank would be nice if they do another kit - again, I doubt it.
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Post by: Nithaniel
There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.
The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.
It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.
Its the Eldar Drop Pod.
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Post by: Ratius
There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.
The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.
It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.
Its the Eldar Drop Pod.
Yup, exactly my thoughts.
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Post by: Elbows
I think that's the primary beef for me...it's not even "fun" in casual games. It's so bad you'll just be angry all game watching it wander around (or dying immediately). I run almost every unit in the Eldar codex at some point, the WK gets a frustrating pass.
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Post by: Puganaut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afDzcXSZVl0
^SS82's most recent battle report.
Pretty accurate representation of WKs in most games. Their durability is quite pathetic especially compared to IKs.
Considering how much of the eldar codex is suboptimal, I'd love a few units to be more viable. Vypers, bikers, banshees, walkers are all close but just not there. However, these can all be used at some point. Elbows said it best, it's not even remotely fun to take a WK casually.
Marmatag, going to heartily disagree with you there. You'd be fighting a 1600 point soup army with 2000 points. WKs are just deadweight currently.
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Post by: Mmmpi
 bullyboy wrote:GW should be looking at what Imperial Knights have done for all Imperial forces and be going "hmmmm"
Then they release an Aeldari knight codex that has several classes of knights.
Make the current one into 3 separate classes...
Assault (sword and board, +1 attack and WS)
Guardian (shield and either suncannon/hvy wraithcannon)
Heavy (Hvy wraithcannon and either second wraithcannon or suncannon)
Add Spirit stones as standard and adjust points
Create new smaller scout class knight with twin pulse laser, or lance and secondary weapon.
Done
Technically the smaller version already exists in the wraithlord. Two heavy weapons, a melee upgrade, and two lighter defensive weapons.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 Nithaniel wrote:There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.
The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.
It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.
Its the Eldar Drop Pod.
Except Drop Pods weren't ever broken.
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Post by: Azmodaeus
Yea the top lists weren't all space marines with free drop pods.
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Post by: bullyboy
 Mmmpi wrote: bullyboy wrote:GW should be looking at what Imperial Knights have done for all Imperial forces and be going "hmmmm"
Then they release an Aeldari knight codex that has several classes of knights.
Make the current one into 3 separate classes...
Assault (sword and board, +1 attack and WS)
Guardian (shield and either suncannon/hvy wraithcannon)
Heavy (Hvy wraithcannon and either second wraithcannon or suncannon)
Add Spirit stones as standard and adjust points
Create new smaller scout class knight with twin pulse laser, or lance and secondary weapon.
Done
Technically the smaller version already exists in the wraithlord. Two heavy weapons, a melee upgrade, and two lighter defensive weapons.
nah, the wraithlord is the dreadnought equivalent, but I see your point that there may not be a place for something between a wraithlord and wraithknight (although something sitting at around 14 wounds wouldn't be bad). Plus the mini knight should be manned, unlike the wraithlord, which would make it different (in lore at least).
At the very least, I would like to see the wraithknight addressed in Chapter Approved with the weapon options being more relaxed and points adjusted accordingly.
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Post by: Bharring
Az,
To be fair, only the OP Gladius were free pods. The pre-Gladius obsec spam and the later Skyhammer were OP flavors of Pods where the Pods weren't free.
Minor technical point, but same conclusion.
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Post by: Archebius
peteralmo wrote:The little fluff argument is that the eldar are supposed to be exponentially more advanced in there technology, far outpacing astartes, admech, and tau, and really only being rivaled by necrons, with even they lagging behind a bit...
Woah now, sir. Necrons are most certainly more advanced than the Eldar. We've mastered immortality and regeneration! Enslaved the gods! Time itself is our plaything!
... just don't look at our Codex for proof of that.
In all seriousness, we're suffering from a pretty similar thing. Our Monoliths and Obelisks are supposed to be our big super-advanced vehicles, but no one uses them because they are absolute garbage. I'm hoping that once all the factions are released, GW will take a good balancing pass that lets players use their toys. Even if it's not competitive, it can at least be fun.
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Post by: Bharring
The fluff is very consistant about Necrons being much more advanced than Eldar in tech.
It seems like, on a scale from 1 to 10:
1. Kroot
2. IoM on backwater planets, IG, PDFs
3. IoM best tech - Mechnicum, Assasins, etc
4. Tau
6. DAoT
Pre-fall Eldar dialed it up to 11.
Necrons sit comfortably at a 16.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Nithaniel wrote:There was an interesting AMA on reddit with an ex GW employee who spoke about when they first created the WK and how they costed it in the then points system to be about 450 pts but the execs said make it cheaper so more people will buy it.
The WK was the bogeyman model in previous edition but I'm sure it sold bucket loads. It got nerfed. It will stay nerfed for sometime because they don't need to sell more kits of it.
It will gather dust on the shelves of countless try hard eldar players around the globe which is sad. If you're not a tournament player who cares, run it and enjoy it for it is and its hallowed OP memories.
Its the Eldar Drop Pod.
That was the era of Tom Kirby so I'd believe it. Supposibly Roundtree has a different approach to the business (the bundles via games and starter boxes being a way around the board not letting him just cut prices), but it doesn't mean the studio doesn't innately take a heavier hand to units that were too good in the past, though with the playtesters being involved I feel that the situation is based on some feedback that showed it was really good with some combo (a combo that may have even been nerfed separately without adjusting the WK back down to compensate). Considering how GW rolls currently they'll likely give it a points drop in CA to get them at least on the table in casual play.
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Post by: Galef
Bharring wrote:The fluff is very consistant about Necrons being much more advanced than Eldar in tech.
It seems like, on a scale from 1 to 10:
1. Kroot
2. IoM on backwater planets, IG, PDFs
3. IoM best tech - Mechnicum, Assasins, etc
4. Tau
6. DAoT
Pre-fall Eldar dialed it up to 11.
Necrons sit comfortably at a 16.
Indeed, but also keep in mind the Necrons are so old that much of their tech is now failing. This is why some Lords are coo-coo for cocoa puffs and what some Tomb Worlds still haven't full awoken despite being disturbed. Just food for thought
-
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Galef wrote:Indeed, but also keep in mind the Necrons are so old that much of their tech is now failing. This is why some Lords are coo-coo for cocoa puffs and what some Tomb Worlds still haven't full awoken despite being disturbed. Just food for thought
Most of their tech is just fine, it's just the Necrons themselves that range from "perfectly functional" to "crazy nutters who think they're still flesh" to "robot zombies who want to eat your flesh". Even then their bodies work fine, it's their minds that are the problem.
Eldar were sitting on some tech that is just as old as the Crons are, though since they murderorgied a god into existance they basically lost most of the REALLY good stuff they had access to. Still better than most races, but lets not forget that most Craftworld stuff is made of wraithbone which is the material of the warp sung into material existance to fit a kind of template while the Dark Eldar seem to have access to most of the old tech (plus a bunch of perversions of it they murderorgied their way into using).
Basically both are still yonks past humanity but they both have weaknesses too. Necrons are largely losing their minds meaning they might not even remember all the stuff they actually have, and Eldar kind of lost their best toys due to snorting too much warp dust and trying to be Space Patrick Bateman.
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Post by: Bharring
Dark Eldar lost most of their old tech too - perhaps more than even Craftworlders - because most Eldar items required psykic energy to use (as an interface, not a power source). Also, most of their building materials were created from the Warp. As Dark Eldar don't use the Warp at all anymore, they had to rebuild from the ground up.
Now, they should still have the knowledge and documentation on the good stuff, it's mostly materials sciences and engineering that they need to redo.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Moral of the story: don't murderorgy your whole race into extinction.
More on topic, I'd probably wait to see what CA does to the Wraithknight (especially since it's probably too late to write in about it and see it change for this update) and if it isn't fixed in this one, I'd look at providing GW with detailed, but polite and professional, feedback on the Wraithknight and it's balance in the game. Player feedback is shaping this new edition and only by addressing the problems that remain unchanged can we help guide the game to a better place.
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Post by: Vaktathi
peteralmo wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.
That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.
Your last point is one I hear a lot, and one I'll never understand. GW is a huge company when compared against other companies within it's industry. Why is the narrative that they simply don't have the man power to analyze every unit so robust and dispersed so easily. They are a huge company, with a lot of resources at there disposal. My expectation is that before each chapter approved or even big FAQ, they should have analyzed every single unit in
the game they created and considered how they could better tweak said unit. And beyond that I just want brutal honesty and transparency from this company, almost always we get the exact opposite. Consider WOTC. When they update their banned and restricted lists, they include sentences similar to this: "when we banned X a few months ago we thought it would have Y effect and make Z healthier. We were wrong, it didn't have the desired effect, and
as such we are now unbanning X." I would love to read something like that from GW just once. Such as: "We understand a segment of the community wanted to see Dark Reapers points cost increase far more severely, but we feel comfortable with the adjustment we made." Or, "we understand the Wraithknight feels overcosted and underpowered given the newer knight class unit rule sets, however we still feel they shouldn't be adjusted (pretty awful
explanation but at least they admit people are having this consternation over the issue." Or God-forbid, "We felt this unit was so good and so over-represented in the recent past we are purposefully pricing it at a very noncompetitive rate."
GW absolutely can put a whole lot more effort into balancing and costing units. However, ultimately they see themselves as a model company selling a premium-grade product to collectors. They're rather open about that in their statements to shareholders. Despite their name, they don't consider themselves to actually be a gaming "workshop", the rules are there to assist in selling models, the game itself is ancillary to that. Hence, why we see the relatively poor efforts at balance. They really dont care about a balanced game, they care about cool models people will want to buy.
Also, historically, in terms of overall management, they've been a total incompetent shitshow that's only very recently started to turn around.
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Post by: Galef
Vaktathi wrote:GW absolutely can put a whole lot more effort into balancing and costing units. However, ultimately they see themselves as a model company selling a premium-grade product to collectors. They're rather open about that in their statements to shareholders. Despite their name, they don't consider themselves to actually be a gaming "workshop", the rules are there to assist in selling models, the game itself is ancillary to that. Hence, why we see the relatively poor efforts at balance. They really dont care about a balanced game, they care about cool models people will want to buy. Also, historically, in terms of overall management, they've been a total incompetent shitshow that's only very recently started to turn around.
While this is certainly a valid version of the truth, it is very cynical. Many would argue that developing a balanced game is certainly the most effective method for selling those premium grade models. I think GW is finally starting to get that. The reached out to the community for feedback, implemented some of it and their profits doubled. Coincidence? -
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Vaktathi wrote: peteralmo wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.
That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.
Your last point is one I hear a lot, and one I'll never understand. GW is a huge company when compared against other companies within it's industry. Why is the narrative that they simply don't have the man power to analyze every unit so robust and dispersed so easily. They are a huge company, with a lot of resources at there disposal. My expectation is that before each chapter approved or even big FAQ, they should have analyzed every single unit in
the game they created and considered how they could better tweak said unit. And beyond that I just want brutal honesty and transparency from this company, almost always we get the exact opposite. Consider WOTC. When they update their banned and restricted lists, they include sentences similar to this: "when we banned X a few months ago we thought it would have Y effect and make Z healthier. We were wrong, it didn't have the desired effect, and
as such we are now unbanning X." I would love to read something like that from GW just once. Such as: "We understand a segment of the community wanted to see Dark Reapers points cost increase far more severely, but we feel comfortable with the adjustment we made." Or, "we understand the Wraithknight feels overcosted and underpowered given the newer knight class unit rule sets, however we still feel they shouldn't be adjusted (pretty awful
explanation but at least they admit people are having this consternation over the issue." Or God-forbid, "We felt this unit was so good and so over-represented in the recent past we are purposefully pricing it at a very noncompetitive rate."
GW absolutely can put a whole lot more effort into balancing and costing units. However, ultimately they see themselves as a model company selling a premium-grade product to collectors. They're rather open about that in their statements to shareholders. Despite their name, they don't consider themselves to actually be a gaming "workshop", the rules are there to assist in selling models, the game itself is ancillary to that. Hence, why we see the relatively poor efforts at balance. They really dont care about a balanced game, they care about cool models people will want to buy.
Also, historically, in terms of overall management, they've been a total incompetent shitshow that's only very recently started to turn around.
This was definitely more true under Kirby's direction, but Roundtree's direction seems to be shifting the company to trying to make the game good first and using that to sell models instead of making good models and using them to sell themselves.
I mean, if it were Kirby's approach Primaris would be one of the best armies in the game right now just by merit of being the newest Marine thing. And instead most people find them incredibly limited and unbalanced (in a bad way) and barely where they feel regular Marines should be at, much less where the new guys should be.
Basically I'm saying that the game is shifting from being a platform to sell stuff by merit of being the new hotness and onto selling stuff based on what people want to play and addressing the stuff that doesn't sell at all by tweaking it so people want it instead of just nerfing everything that does sell to get it to sell instead.
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Post by: Reemule
I think it would be fine at around 500 points for the most expensive options on it, Sunbeam cannon and Friendship shield.
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Post by: Vaktathi
The game has definitely improved under Roundtree, but I think only by the abysmal standards of 6E and 7E where the game was a total clusterfark of an unplayable disaster and was quickly losing marketshare. I would find it hard to argue that 8E is fundamentally a better and more balanced game then 5E was when it came out a decade ago, and we still routinely get codex books where people can spot the garbage and gold with a casual glance.
GW is doing more talking to customers, which is good, but the results are limited thus far, at least from what I can see. Looking at their 2018 investor relations report, GW still first and foremost consider themselves a model and IP company, with the rules and games themselves meriting no discernible mention or consideration.
So yeah, they're better than they were during 2012-2017, undoubteldy so, but they're still a model, not a game, company first and foremost. Hence why rules issues and imbalances are still an ongoing thing with haphazard responses from GW.
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Post by: Torquar
peteralmo wrote: and really only being rivaled by necrons, with even they lagging behind a bit
HA! 
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 Azmodaeus wrote:
Yea the top lists weren't all space marines with free drop pods.
No, the top lists were all free Razorbacks or Rhinos.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Drop Pods were pretty heavily abused, lots of power lists used free drop pods, not all were Rhinos/Razorbacks, and the DP helped make a lot of other stuff broken too (gravcents). 35pts for risk-free deepstrike on almost any infantry unit, that allowed you to bring on units turn 1 (when normal DS couldnt come in until turn 2 at the earliest), that then became a scoring AV12 stormbolter-pillbox for the rest of the game, was a wee bit cheap 
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Post by: Bharring
*obsec* scoring AV12.
Featured in a lot of pre-gladius Obsec Spam Marine lists, and did really well. Gladius did favor Razorbacks, but not the only use.
And that's just pods carrying Tacs. Podded DevCents were certainly huge. Skyhammer was terribly OP.
Pods were amazing in 6th and 7th.
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Post by: Orock
Work stompa says hi
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Post by: Xenomancers
Bharring wrote:*obsec* scoring AV12.
Featured in a lot of pre-gladius Obsec Spam Marine lists, and did really well. Gladius did favor Razorbacks, but not the only use.
And that's just pods carrying Tacs. Podded DevCents were certainly huge. Skyhammer was terribly OP.
Pods were amazing in 6th and 7th.
Skyhammer wasn't at all OP - there is a reason people didn't try to squeeze it into gladius formations. Gotta remember this is in the time of Wraithknights for under 300 points...Drone net riptides combos (which could end skyhammer before it even got to shoot LOL and then in their shooting phase they will just ripple fire their secondary weapon and charge and kill anything that remains)....necron decurian with undeniable FNP (drop in and do 0 damage) and daemonic incursion (wow these grav cannons don't do gak against this army). The source of "skyhammer is OP" is pretty obvious. It could kill wraithknights on turn 1 if you won the roll to go first (before you could make the WK invisible and auto win the game).
7th edition is best forgotten - it was an absolute joke. No units should be paying the price for being OP in another eddition. WK should not cost more than a IK Crusader and on top of that - it needs buffs.
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Post by: Galef
Reemule wrote:I think it would be fine at around 500 points for the most expensive options on it, Sunbeam cannon and Friendship shield.
Just under 500pts and including Spirit stones "feels right"
The other 2 variants shouldn't be over 400ppm unless the shoulder guns are added.
-
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Post by: Xenomancers
Galef wrote:Reemule wrote:I think it would be fine at around 500 points for the most expensive options on it, Sunbeam cannon and Friendship shield.
Just under 500pts and including Spirit stones "feels right"
The other 2 variants shouldn't be over 400ppm unless the shoulder guns are added.
-
Totally agree. Sword and board WK should be about the same price as a Galant. Which i think tops in at 370 with it's rocket launcher.
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Post by: Gitdakka
You have compared the wraith knight to the imperial knigths and found it over costed. Hard to argue with that. But have you compared it to a gorkanaut? Those seem pretty balanced against each other to me. And riptides, where do they belong?
It's almost like there is two balance tiers of models that are not meant to coexist in the same game.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Vaktathi wrote:The game has definitely improved under Roundtree, but I think only by the abysmal standards of 6E and 7E where the game was a total clusterfark of an unplayable disaster and was quickly losing marketshare. I would find it hard to argue that 8E is fundamentally a better and more balanced game then 5E was when it came out a decade ago, and we still routinely get codex books where people can spot the garbage and gold with a casual glance.
GW is doing more talking to customers, which is good, but the results are limited thus far, at least from what I can see. Looking at their 2018 investor relations report, GW still first and foremost consider themselves a model and IP company, with the rules and games themselves meriting no discernible mention or consideration.
So yeah, they're better than they were during 2012-2017, undoubteldy so, but they're still a model, not a game, company first and foremost. Hence why rules issues and imbalances are still an ongoing thing with haphazard responses from GW.
We also have to remember that while Roundtree heads the company, he still has to answer to a board of directors. The same board of directors who kept putting Kirby in charge despite how the customer base would basically revolt over it, so such mission statements might not be changable, even if he's working to try and curb such a mindset in the studio itself.
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Post by: Reemule
I'd place all of the Riptide/Wraith knight/Gorkanuts/Stompas/knights in the same boat at being somewhere between 350-650 points.
With the wrathknight, It doesn't feel very strong to me in even its most point heavy configuration, the Sunbeam and shield, with Starcannon shoulder mounts.
But some of the situation has to be judged on the support these models have. A Gallent knight isn't that impressive alone. A gallant knight with Hawksround, Rotate Ion shields, Fist of death, and clock stuff on the second floor stratagems and CP to use them is a completely different matter.
The Riptide, Wrathknight, and Ork entries don't have a 10th the support that Imperial Knights have, and Chaos is only slightly better than the xenos as it profits from the plethora of options Imperial Knights brings to the table.
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Post by: bullyboy
570pts for a WK with suncannon/shield and 2 starcannons.....errr, that's a flat no. For starters that suncannon needs to be Heavy 12 not Heavy 2D6. The 5+ invuln is nice though, but it still needs to babysat by a Farseer with Fortune which tacks on another 115pts
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Post by: koooaei
It's called 40k balance. It's measured in how many killa kanz it can stomp.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
 Desubot wrote:Its a cool model.
it suffers from its crimes in 7th as does the centurions
but like the centurions and imperial knights it shouldn't exist in normal 40k
the scale creep and eggs in a basket was and is getting out of hand.
basically game playablity vs fluff or whatever.
The 'shouldn't exist' thing bothers me. Necrons and Tau shouldn't exist to me as I'm a 2nd edition player, but the more GW adds to the game the better it is. New units and models have always been released, even since beginning of 40k, they update the lore. People that say 'this shouldn't exist' ignore the history of 40k. Units are released all the time even units that are not new and are new psysical models with old 'reestablished' lore. Its better for Eldar as well, they hit their zenith in technology, they've never really had a reason to update their technology, what works works and has worked for millions of years.
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Post by: nurgle86
While I can agree and understand that its lamentable that a centrepiece model is not great in the eldar book the last thing I think GW should be doing is improving anything in the CW book. The Aeldari forces as a whole including all types are capable of putting down the most powerful list in the game right now. The designers have just got it wrong again because a Ynarri/Drukhari(Vect)/CW shining spears combo is pretty close to unbeatable. I'm not salty about it, I think its awesome that models like shining spears that saw virtually no play in 7th are now amazing!
40k is cyclical to varying degrees but the one thing that hasn't changed is that eldar have been top of or close to the top of the pile for almost the entire 40k history. My advice is if you are playing to win forget about the wraithknight for anything else go and buy that centre piece model and enjoy it. One day it might be great again.
But my Stompa is still giving y'all the middle finger
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Post by: Shadenuat
Ynnari, Drukhari & Vect should have nothing to do with quite a few CW units being bad or mediocre. Just like IG existence should't mean pure SM Codex can be left out as whatever.
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Post by: greatbigtree
From a pure marketing perspective, changing what’s powerful from edition to edition encourages chasing the meta-dragon which drives sales. People own WK already, and Scatter Bikes, so make them weak to drive the sales of other stuff.
In 7th, my friend played Jet-Seers, Scatterbikes, Wraith Knights, and Warp Spiders. Or, he’d play the Wraith Formation with all the D goodness with 2 or 3 WK.
He’s a bit of a power gamer, and that’s ok because I enjoy the challenge. One of my favourite opponents... but I don’t think I’ve seen the WK on the table this edition. He chases the meta, and is currently maining his Imp Knights. Shifting the power base causes him to spend more money on GW product. He just bought one of the Big Knights and is probably going to buy some Junior Knights too. If WK spam had held, he probably wouldn’t have done that.
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Post by: Shadenuat
It can also make people rage quit, go recasting, make newbies disappointed, and so on. When every unit in the Codex at least has a niche, there are more styles to play, and more units to try out, more models to buy. WoW-like meta changes are gak.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Shadenuat wrote:It can also make people rage quit, go recasting, make newbies disappointed, and so on. When every unit in the Codex at least has a niche, there are more styles to play, and more units to try out, more models to buy. WoW-like meta changes are gak.
It's less of a WoW-like meta change and more like DoTA or LoL style. Rotating meta to keep the game "fresh" and prevent all tactics boiling down to the same thing all the time.
That said, they've been doing less of an extreme version of that this edition and it looks like they're willing to move the game to being more balanced so people can instead build a list of whatever they want and go from there.
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Post by: Shadenuat
"Keeping things fresh" was not what happened with WK though. If we to trust the leaks, GW management blatantly underpriced it to drive sales not listening to actual game designers, and then nerfed to oblivion to keep the face. Now we have what we have, and what we have is gak. All what is left is to wait for 9th edition 'dex.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Shadenuat wrote:"Keeping things fresh" was not what happened with WK though. If we to trust the leaks, GW management blatantly underpriced it to drive sales not listening to actual game designers, and then nerfed to oblivion to keep the face. Now we have what we have, and what we have is gak. All what is left is to wait for 9th edition 'dex.
No, what there is to do is wait until Chapter Approved which we've seen does points adjustments and could bring the WK onto the table. This is no longer the game where you have to wait 5+ years to bring a model you like but is gak.
And again, the Kirby days are pretty much the dark ages of GW and we all know they sucked. The guy in charge isn't Kirby and doesn't hold Kirby's views very highly. That said, we do have a lot of the same dips on the board who are likely causing some problems, but let's not pretend that nothing has changed and that the game hasn't steadily been moving towards a better place than it was in the past.
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Post by: Shadenuat
CA already happened and no CW units were improved in any way, so to me it seems like everything there is like GW wants it. And price is not the only problem with WK. Compared to better super heavies, he always had that flaw in design where you have to choose between either carrying big guns or having an actual invul. In modern meta I don't think super heavy can allow itself having that leisure. Plus, touching on WK can wake up flashbacks in some players, like Imperial Knight players, as they can go all HOLY RAEG, feeling threatened that story is repeating itself.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong of course, but imo, WKs are now where GW wants them to be.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Shadenuat wrote:CA already happened and no CW units were improved in any way, so to me it seems like everything there is like GW wants it. And price is not the only problem with WK. Compared to better super heavies, he always had that flaw in design where you have to choose between either carrying big guns or having an actual invul. In modern meta I don't think super heavy can allow itself having that leisure. Plus, touching on WK can wake up flashbacks in some players, like Imperial Knight players, as they can go all HOLY RAEG, feeling threatened that story is repeating itself.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong of course, but imo, WKs are now where GW wants them to be.
CA 2017 happened. I was talking about CA 2018, or are you choosing to pretend we're not getting one of those every years to allow yourself an excuse to be saltier?
Seriously, I swear people like to pretend things are worse than they are just to complain.
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Post by: Shadenuat
I am being realistic - price change, even if happens, would not change WK overall design, its underwhelming guns, problem with getting invul, no stratagems to increase that invul, or quite a big amount of psychic powers not affecting it at all. But re-designing that big of a unit shouldn't be a priority while some factions still even lack codices, so that's why I am betting more on newer edition than current one bandaging stuff.
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Post by: Elbows
While I agree to an extent...a points reduction would be far better than nothing. It's a start, and would assuage a lot of peoples hesitation to take them in casual or narrative events.
At 400 points, I'd take one on occasion for fun.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Shadenuat wrote:I am being realistic - price change, even if happens, would not change WK overall design, its underwhelming guns, problem with getting invul, no stratagems to increase that invul, or quite a big amount of psychic powers not affecting it at all. But re-designing that big of a unit shouldn't be a priority while some factions still even lack codices, so that's why I am betting more on newer edition than current one bandaging stuff.
I wouldn't bet on a new edition until wee know what GW is going to do with this edition next year once the codexes are finished getting rolled out. For all we know we'll be seeing an 8.5 ed or campaign expansions to act as replacements for codexes going forward for the forseeable future.
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Post by: Elbows
I think that's why I'm so curious to see what Chapter Approved 2018 'does'. We've seen a few changes in rules, a few changes in points, etc. over the past year, but we haven't seen much in the way of fixing actual units. Now granted they could simply re-do the weapons and re-do the points and the Wraithknight might become "okay", but I think Chapter Approved for this year will give a large hint at how the game will be going forward.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
CA 2017 was focused more on stuff that was ready to go out of the gate for the edition from what I can tell. CA 2018 has more potential to be where they start doing things like updating rules and giving us special stuff beyond what we've seen.
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Post by: barboggo
The real problem with the wraithknight (and wraithlord) is primarily lack of dakka for the points. It's a huge chunk of your army wasted on something that barely shoots/swings. None of the big wraith constructs really do damage compared to actual competitive Aeldari units.
For the less than the price of 1 double starcannon wraithknight, you could literally take 15 Dark Reapers, 10 of which will double shoot with Yvraine. The latter is an absurd amount of dakka, the former, not so much. Literally spent 500+ points for 8 shots. It's insanely bad. Even with perfect rolls one squad of Iron Warriors cultists could literally tie it up for the whole game.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Wraith units are (ideally) anvils in an army of glass hammers. Having a lower damage output isn't exactly a bad thing, the problem is the game focuses largely on having damage output being the main means of winning the game.
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Post by: barboggo
Yeah I agree. I'm speaking from the standpoint of why no 8th edition competitive player will ever take them. They are simply awful in the competitive scene. "Anvils" aren't very well represented in the competitive scene due the prevalence of high AP units in every codex. The only thing I've really seen lately that serve that purpose are haemonculus-buffed grotesques/talos and.... blightlord terminators in that one BAO list? Today's competitive meta is all about dakka.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
barboggo wrote:Yeah I agree. I'm speaking from the standpoint of why no 8th edition competitive player will ever take them. They are simply awful in the competitive scene. "Anvils" aren't very well represented in the competitive scene due the prevalence of high AP units in every codex. The only thing I've really seen lately that serve that purpose are haemonculus-buffed grotesques/talos and.... blightlord terminators in that one BAO list? Today's competitive meta is all about dakka.
Pretty much. The game is too heavilly skewed towards negative modifiers with a lack of positive modifiers to make anvil units worth taking.
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Post by: Reemule
What Competitive environment are you speaking of? The horde forces of Jan-March? The Flyrant forces till the FAQ hit? The Rule of Three forces til Knights jumped in and bent the meta? The current IK Soup till Space Wolves hits a stride? The most likely upcoming Orktober meta till CA is released?
What one?
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Post by: zerosignal
It's massively overcosted and needs a points drop. If you're really scared it might be OP, just make it 0-1.
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Post by: G00fySmiley
 ClockworkZion wrote:Wraith units are (ideally) anvils in an army of glass hammers. Having a lower damage output isn't exactly a bad thing, the problem is the game focuses largely on having damage output being the main means of winning the game.
I'd prefer to see more anvil brought to the wraith constructs. they are suppossed to be extremely durable. from reading it seems they should be harder than power armor and on par with a land raider or terminator. I think thay should have a 2+ armor and adjust points from there rather than more dakka. that and given the size of the wraithsheld it should be a 4++ suddenly that sword and board wraithknight might be able to make its points back. and be a fast assaulting machine, or use the 2 wraithcannons to drop things that have a harder time takign it down.
on the previously mentioned Stompa I actually think it is more overcosted currently than a WK but maybe the codex will fix that. The stompas issue is a ton of shots but some weapons average less than one hit. I have 2 Wk and 1 Stompa both just sit pretty on a shelf currently.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
I think the more durable option would be good. Then again I'm all for more anvil options existing as the game seems to be gearing too far towards being about who does the most damage first.
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Post by: Martel732
Probably, yes. It was stupid broken in 7th so GW makes it unplayable. Par for the course.
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