Wondering if we will get a unit that can upgrade, being a factotum master of none. Having an elite or troop unit that can have cc weapons and or speacial/long ranged weaponry or is GW just making them more like eldar, though eldar even have more options than Primaris. They are not going to change the Primaris that have been released as there are no options really in their boxes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wondering if we will get a unit that can upgrade, being a factotum master of none. Having an elite or troop unit that can have cc weapons and or speacial/long ranged weaponry or is GW just making them more like eldar, though eldar even have more options than Primaris.

Well i want to say its rowboat following more the scheme of older formations. in 30k it seems that its ether dudes with bolters, dudes with special weapons or dudes with heavy weapons. no standard tactical squads like 40k.

 Desubot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wondering if we will get a unit that can upgrade, being a factotum master of none. Having an elite or troop unit that can have cc weapons and or speacial/long ranged weaponry or is GW just making them more like eldar, though eldar even have more options than Primaris.

Well i want to say its rowboat following more the scheme of older formations. in 30k it seems that its ether dudes with bolters, dudes with special weapons or dudes with heavy weapons. no standard tactical squads like 40k.

It definitely looks that way, I think the execs in GW have a bureaucratic thought process thinking, its successful in 30k therefore we must replicate our success in 40k. I like the fact its easier for list building, but I miss seeing the old powerfist or axe with my units, they are starting to look boring especially as a SW's player, plus less tactical, which is daft for Astartes as they are pretty much special forces in the Imperium. Ah well, just have to get used to it, I'll still model mine with powerfist etc. just for the look. CSM's have options so I think they are definitely changing the dynamic of loyalists. I think loyalists will be tougher but CSM will be more jack of all trades, seeing that they won't be getting the new Primaris statline. Adds a bit of flavour between the two I suppose.

I dont think its because it was successful in 30k or anything like that.

99% sure it has everything to do with not stepping on existing marines toes.

there is no way the excects would know if the primarus line would stick. they probably wanted to do it just to update the line as marine models suuuuuuuuuuck.

so they couldn't do a direct 1 to 1 replacement in 40k otherwise backlash would of been far worse.

all the line really needs is dedicated vet squads to ether go full punch town or full shoot town with more interesting weapons and its gg.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think its because it was successful in 30k or anything like that.

99% sure it has everything to do with not stepping on existing marines toes.

there is no way the excects would know if the primarus line would stick. they probably wanted to do it just to update the line as marine models suuuuuuuuuuck.

so they couldn't do a direct 1 to 1 replacement in 40k otherwise backlash would of been far worse.

all the line really needs is dedicated vet squads to ether go full punch town or full shoot town with more interesting weapons and its gg.

They'd need a troops version as well in my opinion.

There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

 greyknight12 wrote:
There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

Yeah but they wanted more money, so they made Primaris so dummies would still buy classic marines.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

Yeah but they wanted more money, so they made Primaris so dummies would still buy classic marines.

Kinda missing the point

imagine what those "dummies" would say if they just invalidated their whole collection saying these are the new marines. get used to it.

its fantastic for people just starting or people with more disposable income then common sense but for everyone else it would literally be a slap in the face.

it is a money issue but its a pr thing not a lets screw over people.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

Yeah but they wanted more money, so they made Primaris so dummies would still buy classic marines.

how are they "dummies"? classic marines still exist, they're still being deployed along side one another, yes I think the likelyhood of new old marine kits is unlikely but beyond maybe some characters what old school marines do we need?

 Desubot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

Yeah but they wanted more money, so they made Primaris so dummies would still buy classic marines.

Kinda missing the point

imagine what those "dummies" would say if they just invalidated their whole collection saying these are the new marines. get used to it.

its fantastic for people just starting or people with more disposable income then common sense but for everyone else it would literally be a slap in the face.

it is a money issue but its a pr thing not a lets screw over people.

No you're missing the point. Classic marines will be replaced. So continuing to buy them is kinda dumb as in the future they will be replaced. If you don't put in any time painting them etc. you're not dumb but I collect as well as play, there is no way I'm putting in painstaking time painting models that will be replaced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

Yeah but they wanted more money, so they made Primaris so dummies would still buy classic marines.

how are they "dummies"? classic marines still exist, they're still being deployed along side one another, yes I think the likelyhood of new old marine kits is unlikely but beyond maybe some characters what old school marines do we need?

Let me rephrase if people want to collect them knowing they will be replaced then they aren't dummies but if they collect them thinking they will be around forever then they are dummies, because they will be replaced, seen it happen since 2nd edition, plus GW are a business, they need to update with the times to compete as a business and old marines no longer cut it aesthetic wise. Especially not for a new player base. I never realised how goofy they looked until they made custodes and primaris.

Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No you're missing the point. Classic marines will be replaced.

As long as classic marines make a profit for Games Workshop they will not be replaced.

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

No, do what I do, convert them into true scale which is very easy, the only hard converts are terminators, but can still be done making them Primaris height. When they get rid of marines you can still keep all your converts, they won't be WYSIWYG, but who cares about that. Only bikes and land speeders are a bitch to convert and you need very good sculpting skills for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No you're missing the point. Classic marines will be replaced.

As long as classic marines make a profit for Games Workshop they will not be replaced.

Thats like saying as long as the Iphone 8 sells models, they won't replace it with the Iphone 9. They have replaced models since rogue trader days.

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

it's worth noting that the core marine units are also pretty new, the MK VII tac squad kit came out with the 6th edition marine codex and is only 5 years old, Assault Marines, devestators came out with the 7th edition codex and are 3 years old, the MK IV armor is about that old too. MK III armor, is only 2 years old at this time. will the old marines be phased out? maybe, but it could be decades before they are, consider how long some of the current kits we have have been around. some are a good 20 years old. not worth worrying about over much in my mind.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

it's worth noting that the core marine units are also pretty new, the MK VII tac squad kit came out with the 6th edition marine codex and is only 5 years old, Assault Marines, devestators came out with the 7th edition codex and are 3 years old, the MK IV armor is about that old too. MK III armor, is only 2 years old at this time. will the old marines be phased out? maybe, but it could be decades before they are, consider how long some of the current kits we have have been around. some are a good 20 years old. not worth worrying about over much in my mind.

It will be years, but GW have never made this much change as they have for 8th and AOS. They are really moving towards a complete update of armies especially in the dawn of 3d printing.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

it's worth noting that the core marine units are also pretty new, the MK VII tac squad kit came out with the 6th edition marine codex and is only 5 years old, Assault Marines, devestators came out with the 7th edition codex and are 3 years old, the MK IV armor is about that old too. MK III armor, is only 2 years old at this time. will the old marines be phased out? maybe, but it could be decades before they are, consider how long some of the current kits we have have been around. some are a good 20 years old. not worth worrying about over much in my mind.

Yeah i know im definitely not worried about it.

on a side note the new aos chaos kits make for EXCELLENT leg conversions for true scale chaos space marines.

 Desubot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

it's worth noting that the core marine units are also pretty new, the MK VII tac squad kit came out with the 6th edition marine codex and is only 5 years old, Assault Marines, devestators came out with the 7th edition codex and are 3 years old, the MK IV armor is about that old too. MK III armor, is only 2 years old at this time. will the old marines be phased out? maybe, but it could be decades before they are, consider how long some of the current kits we have have been around. some are a good 20 years old. not worth worrying about over much in my mind.

Yeah i know im definitely not worried about it.

on a side note the new aos chaos kits make for EXCELLENT leg conversions for true scale chaos space marines.

a Plastic kit an easily last 20 years before they gotta replace the mold apparently. So I figure old school Marines are proably good for 20 years. I'll worry about them canning all old school marines or not when I'm 56.

How old are you now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3D printing GW models is a matter of when not if. GW have already seen the writing on the wall, that's why they are making such detailed models now, even look at what they sell now, unique dice, cards etc. they are making constant new models. When 3D printing can make classic marines GW will stop selling them so it will be sooner than you think.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How old are you now?

20 - 56 =?

 Desubot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
How old are you now?

20 - 56 =?

I skim read that.

Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

no but giving space marines some infantry options with massive simplifcation is proably a good idea. as it's the "gateway drug faction"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

no but giving space marines some infantry options with massive simplifcation is proably a good idea. as it's the "gateway drug faction"

Not really, for that to be a game-plan you'd need to do it far all factions, They may think they can hard sell to people saying its an easy army, but people will always go with the army that they love, at most it might make someone chose marines over another army if they liked both. Its a good idea from GW point of view, not a good idea realistically, it makes it simpler but not easier, people will have to learn the concept of list building with points, adding a powerfist here and there is just as easy as adding a model here and there. GW have made the game simple enough, now they are going overboard it seems to me. Games like x-wing are really simple and easy, but there is still a reason so much of the market is dominated by GW. Change their formula too much and I think it will be counter-productive. Not everyone is a died in the wool Astartes players.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

no but giving space marines some infantry options with massive simplifcation is proably a good idea. as it's the "gateway drug faction"

Not really, for that to be a game-plan you'd need to do it far all factions, They may think they can hard sell to people saying its an easy army, but people will always go with the army that they love, at most it might make someone chose marines over another army if they liked both. Its a good idea from GW point of view, not a good idea realistically, it makes it simpler but not easier, people will have to learn the concept of list building with points, adding a powerfist here and there is just as easy as adding a model here and there. GW have made the game simple enough, now they are going overboard it seems to me. Games like x-wing are really simple and easy, but there is still a reason so much of the market is dominated by GW. Change their formula too much and I think it will be counter-productive. Not everyone is a died in the wool Astartes players.

Maybe but your average new player likely starts with Marines, I'm not talking a war gamer eaither, I'm talking "9 year old kid comes into GW paints a mini, and buys a box of first strike with his mom"

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

 Desubot wrote:
...Well i want to say its rowboat following more the scheme of older formations. in 30k it seems that its ether dudes with bolters, dudes with special weapons or dudes with heavy weapons. no standard tactical squads like 40k.

So Tactical Veterans, Breachers, Seekers, and Recon squads are what, chopped liver?

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

I did and the shift away from it has had some sad consequences. I'll be the first to admit to not really liking metal models, since they are a pain compared to plastic but GW going over to the clam pack mono pose plastics has been very meh. That's why all my captains and librarians are kit bashed and my chaplains and tech marines are older models. Primaris just don't seem as kit bashable as older marines.

No model, No rules. It's that simple.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's my point, in the future due to IP issues GWs range will likely become more and more standardized. This is hitting SM players the hardest right now due to having the most extensive model range but give it a few years and it's likely every faction will feel the reaper. We seen it start with FW purging entire lines.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's my point, in the future due to IP issues GWs range will likely become more and more standardized. This is hitting SM players the hardest right now due to having the most extensive model range but give it a few years and it's likely every faction will feel the reaper. We seen it start with FW purging entire lines.

that was unrelated.

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's a useless priori.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's a useless priori.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't but the trend is there, clam packs that without doing a decent amount of model work, generally get put together one way and have the ranges of options included. Compare any of the clam packs to the old space marine commander model and tell me they are not pushing simple.

 Desubot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wondering if we will get a unit that can upgrade, being a factotum master of none. Having an elite or troop unit that can have cc weapons and or speacial/long ranged weaponry or is GW just making them more like eldar, though eldar even have more options than Primaris.

Well i want to say its rowboat following more the scheme of older formations. in 30k it seems that its ether dudes with bolters, dudes with special weapons or dudes with heavy weapons. no standard tactical squads like 40k.

There's fluff blurbs about Guilliman organizing the Primaris into the equivalent of the Legion setups, so you're pretty spot on.

I think GW is also trending towards simplification simply because it's easier for new players, and GW much like video games, movies, television, comics etc. is seeking to cast as wide a net as possible and maximize their customer base. Dumbing things down is how you accomplish that: this way Warhammer takes less effort to start and continue to enjoy and it becomes more appealing to a wider audience, despite losing what made it interesting and enjoyable to its current player base.

"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.

I know, I asked him that because of curiosity, I understand that the shfit to plastic means GW put out waaaay less characters, which does show, I mean the number of characters we've got in plastic is pretty small

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

it's worth noting that the core marine units are also pretty new, the MK VII tac squad kit came out with the 6th edition marine codex and is only 5 years old, Assault Marines, devestators came out with the 7th edition codex and are 3 years old, the MK IV armor is about that old too. MK III armor, is only 2 years old at this time. will the old marines be phased out? maybe, but it could be decades before they are, consider how long some of the current kits we have have been around. some are a good 20 years old. not worth worrying about over much in my mind.

And III and IV marks aren't going away due to horus heresy. Hell even VII can be used in HH so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

Yeah well that was inevitable side effect due to GW's stupid fixation over plastic for everything rather than right material for right job.

Let's look at it this way.

Some people see Primaris as having few options.

I see it as Primaris have exactly the options they were intended for.

Let's compare Hellblasters to a squad of Chaos Marines. The reason I choose this is because you can take two plasma guns in a squad of Chaos Marines, and when you're choosing special weapons for Chaos Marines, you tend to double up on one weapon to maximize the role that they play in your army.

Hellblasters do that, but chop off all of the 'chaff' models that you have to take as a tax/ablative wounds. Instead of only taking 2 plasma guns, you get to take all of your models with plasma guns! Voila, the decision is made for you.

And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

As someone who started just a few years ago it is not that bad. You can just proxy it is your want and a big part of 40K is making your own dudes with kitbashing and the more liner the wargear gets the less reason their is to do stuff like making a biker with a glaive to be a power lance or make your honor guard.

drbored wrote:
Let's look at it this way.

Some people see Primaris as having few options.

I see it as Primaris have exactly the options they were intended for.

Let's compare Hellblasters to a squad of Chaos Marines. The reason I choose this is because you can take two plasma guns in a squad of Chaos Marines, and when you're choosing special weapons for Chaos Marines, you tend to double up on one weapon to maximize the role that they play in your army.

Hellblasters do that, but chop off all of the 'chaff' models that you have to take as a tax/ablative wounds. Instead of only taking 2 plasma guns, you get to take all of your models with plasma guns! Voila, the decision is made for you.

And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

Lack of chaff/ablative wounds is the problem...why you think ig doepn't use heavy weapon teams except mortar and why deathwatch ability to have hellblasters to basic squad is so groovyy

 Arachnofiend wrote:
"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

I never said that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's a useless priori.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't but the trend is there, clam packs that without doing a decent amount of model work, generally get put together one way and have the ranges of options included. Compare any of the clam packs to the old space marine commander model and tell me they are not pushing simple.

I never said they weren't pushing the simplicity, I am wondering to what degree (which is why I asked the OP), obviously they are not pushing for Primaris simplicity with other armies, seeing that CSM have not been overly simplified.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said they weren't pushing the simplicity, I am wondering to what degree (which is why I asked the OP), obviously they are not pushing for Primaris simplicity with other armies, seeing that CSM have not been overly simplified.

CSM have not been receiving much of new kits and what they have received has been similar simplifying. Especially in terms of characters. Or how much do new DG characters have options?

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said they weren't pushing the simplicity, I am wondering to what degree (which is why I asked the OP), obviously they are not pushing for Primaris simplicity with other armies, seeing that CSM have not been overly simplified.

CSM have not been receiving much of new kits and what they have received has been similar simplifying. Especially in terms of characters. Or how much do new DG characters have options?

They have been simplified a bit, they can still have a myriad of options, powerfists, combi's, speacial weapons. The two are not analogous. They have recieved tonnes of new kits, the DG and DG terminators all have pretty much the same option's, they actually have more now and these are new kits so they aren't going to reduce their options in the future and say 'you can't use these options now) Characters have never had options, unnamed specific characters don't, but all the other characters have like Chaos lords, sorcerers, Daemon princes

 mew28 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

As someone who started just a few years ago it is not that bad. You can just proxy it is your want and a big part of 40K is making your own dudes with kitbashing and the more liner the wargear gets the less reason their is to do stuff like making a biker with a glaive to be a power lance or make your honor guard.

It's still that bad. Here's an example.

Deathwatch just released, and by far the best build for Kill Team Vets is Storm Bolters and chainswords.

Neither of those items come in the Kill Team box. They don't exist at all in any part of the Deathwatch line, and for Storm Bolters they don't exist in enough numbers anywhere else without buying $200 of other kits just to equip one squad.

So you turn to third party bits sites, if you're hardcore enough, or recasters and 3d printers. Doesn't help GW, and leaves a bad taste in the player's mouth. Why? Because kitbashing for cool models is neat and should be part of the hobby. It should absolutely not be a forced part of the hobby to make a unit's optimum build.

Ultimately this is a rules writing issue, though, and honestly should be fixed that way. A unit's options should only include what is in the box. Relegate models created for those units that now have invalid builds to characters like captains, lieutenants, or small units like Honour Guard. Characters are the best vector for encouraging kitbashing, and I have absolutely no problem with that. But whole units? That's just madness.

Secondary to that, proxying is not WYSIWYG, and almost every organized gaming event requires that. As such, this is not a valid option.

There will never be an upgradeable primaris unit with tons of options because simply put, Primaris Marines are a (quite intelligent) grab at a huge potential market share for Games Workshop, which is younger brothers/sons of existing hobbyists.

GW is an expensive hobby - you want to guarantee a customer base that has the funds to pursue it. Relatives to existing gamers are a surefire bet there.

OK, what's far and away your most popular faction for young boys? Space Marines, by a huge margin. Big, strong, hero good guys. The biggest problem with Space Marines?

Very complicated army building. I can tell you from experience as I started at 11 with Space Wolves, as a kid you just kit your models out however looks cool, and when you go up against any kind of intelligently made list you get your Heavy Bolter rocket launcher lascannon plasma cannon long fang squad butchered without doing anything.

Primaris Marines fix that issue perfectly while positioning themselves to be the absolute ideal jumping off point for a younger hobbyist. This is not intended as a "hurr durr thems for babies" rip on primaris - they are from a marketing, appearance, and fluff standpoint PERFECTLY crafted to appeal to specifically a young relative.

They're "Marines +1" meaning the younger brother can feel like he's got his own cool thing even if the older brother/father plays space marines. They're new additions, quickly being accepted into all the existing chapters with open arms because even though they're young, they're AWESOME and they allow you to have a Dreadnought, have Terminators, have Space Marines just like Big Brother/Dad, but amped up to 11 and given a little extra style.

Every kit has an Ez-build variant priced to be purchaseable with allowance money. Every unit's got a marine analog that you can set them next to and they're slightly taller/cooler than. Every loadout is fixed and very importantly balanced (ie most things have some use against tanks, some use against infantry) or very simple, usually points-even swaps.

Primaris are one of the best marketing decisions GW has made in decades. If they seem stupid to you, that's probably because you're at least 10 years too old for them to have been aimed at you.

On the original topic I doubt primaris will never be able to take special equipment. in fact I am willing to be they eventually get their own codexes as the vanilla marines already have so many options. I am sure rowboat gorilla-man will write them up some tactical doctrines to follow about formations and special weapons. There are already rumors about primaris bikes and transports coming along with a few other elite primaris squads as well as the rumour of a primaris codex for chapters of all primaris.

as for the old marines in the rest of the thread I do not see GW stopping normal marines, they still exist in pretty large numbers and not all chapters will be open to primaris marines. I could see them splitting and space marines infantry getting cheaper to match their power level (not the 5-6 point assault marines cheaper like in that other thread, more something reasonable like 10-11 points, eldar and vanilla marines need rethinking on infantry points) additionally with the rift in the galaxy it coudl be more common for half the galaxy to see/use primaris while the other half has to make due with the same geneseed they have always used. Additionally as the original geneseed was created by the emperor himself I doubt the imperium from a story perspective would be ok with replacing it all.

drbored wrote:


And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

Just eliminating options is lazy design balance. They should work harder to make all options useful, not just cut things.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think its because it was successful in 30k or anything like that.

99% sure it has everything to do with not stepping on existing marines toes.

there is no way the excects would know if the primarus line would stick. they probably wanted to do it just to update the line as marine models suuuuuuuuuuck.

so they couldn't do a direct 1 to 1 replacement in 40k otherwise backlash would of been far worse.

all the line really needs is dedicated vet squads to ether go full punch town or full shoot town with more interesting weapons and its gg.

I think its more of a combination of factors and I deifnitely think the Horus Heresy aspect plays into it. Primaris Marines scream of bureacratic yesman ideas.

"Okay team, we need new ideas for Uber-Space Marines!"
"Well, they love Horus Heresy and Mk4 armour, lets make them in Mk4!"
"They also love Mk8 armour, so lets make them Mk4 and 8 combined and call it Mk X because its cool!"
"THey also love Custodes so let's make them Custodes sized and then there'll be no more Tru-Scale conversions!"

I also think it has to do with not stepping on Marine toes. If you made Primaris with virtually the same points and power values, and gave them all the same weapons they'd be objectively better in every way. However, I don't doubt that in the next round, Primaris will have "proven themselves the premier Astartes and given access to the same armoury options as their Secundus brothers, as the number of Primaris soon begins to outstrip Secundus."

 Deadshot wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think its because it was successful in 30k or anything like that.

99% sure it has everything to do with not stepping on existing marines toes.

there is no way the excects would know if the primarus line would stick. they probably wanted to do it just to update the line as marine models suuuuuuuuuuck.

so they couldn't do a direct 1 to 1 replacement in 40k otherwise backlash would of been far worse.

all the line really needs is dedicated vet squads to ether go full punch town or full shoot town with more interesting weapons and its gg.

I think its more of a combination of factors and I deifnitely think the Horus Heresy aspect plays into it. Primaris Marines scream of bureacratic yesman ideas.

"Okay team, we need new ideas for Uber-Space Marines!"
"Well, they love Horus Heresy and Mk4 armour, lets make them in Mk4!"
"They also love Mk8 armour, so lets make them Mk4 and 8 combined and call it Mk X because its cool!"
"THey also love Custodes so let's make them Custodes sized and then there'll be no more Tru-Scale conversions!"

I also think it has to do with not stepping on Marine toes. If you made Primaris with virtually the same points and power values, and gave them all the same weapons they'd be objectively better in every way. However, I don't doubt that in the next round, Primaris will have "proven themselves the premier Astartes and given access to the same armoury options as their Secundus brothers, as the number of Primaris soon begins to outstrip Secundus."

I dunno about the yesman thing. i guess it all depends on the sprue dates. it would be hard to tell after they made the kits like a year or two before hand but then i guess its kinda their job to forecast these sort of things.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

drbored wrote:


And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

Just eliminating options is lazy design balance. They should work harder to make all options useful, not just cut things.

Considering they dropped points on Inceptors and Intercessors to make them more likely to see the table it feels like they're trying to improve things over just let them rot.

Going back a bit, I feel like the way Primaris build lists has a few factors: first we know they don't want to copy the old Marines which limits how squads are constructed, but they also want to keep units from just being multiples of the same kit, or easily being built without buying the actual kit. You sell more kits when the contents of that kit are unique to the unit it pertains to versus people just using spare bits out of the box from building a more generalist unit like Space Marines to build the unit.

Furthermore I feel like the Primaris are supposed to make it easier for people to get into the game. With less options in each unit, units that look very unique from each other and a lower model count it's an easy to build, easy to learn army with only a handful of different weapon profiles to use, and no mixing between models in a unit (beyond the grenade launcher which takes an option every model has and just gives it longer range) pushes the army more into a smaller list of stuff to keep track of. Basically they're the introduction to 40k army with an "easy to learn" design that can turn into "hard to master" due to their currently limited options.

Lastly I do feel like the Horus Heresy did inspire the design of the Primaris loadouts a bit as well. Working with that as a starting point in the lore allowed them to take the feel of the Horus Heresy armies and move them to 40k and hopefully we'll see this expanded on as we start seeing wider arrays of options and maybe even some chapter specific units like the Heresy had being reborn as 40k units could be a nice expansion on a type of army that, at least I, had an interest of running in 40k but never really meshed with how 40k itself works.

Come over to Deathwatch. I get a 10 man squad of intercessors and can upgrade 5 of them to the following options:

1) Combat Knife and Revier suit (for the Lols?)
2) Boltstorm Guantlets and T5 gravis armor
2) Flamestorm Gauntlets and T5 Gravis armor
3) 2 d3 Plasma Carbines and T5 Armor
4) 2 d6 Bolters and T5 Armor
5) A straight up Plasma Incinerator upgrade
6) Up to two 30" grenade launchers

I'm not even limited to 1 upgrade per 5 troopers

On a more serious note, I think GW is afraid of the equipment creep that normal marines has. My DW vets have over 20 weapon options because every few years GW kept adding to the list. Primaris have been out for a year and we've already seen that Power Axes are being added to liuetenants and chainswords for seargents (I suspect that isn't going to stay Space Wolf/Deathwatch only options for long). I think they are going to trickle the weapon upgrades out slowly to max out the time before you end up with a bunch of primaris stuff in a 9th or 10th edition index.

I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Would they care? what is the percentage of people that would do that. what is the percentage of people that would out right quit or sell their stuff on ebay and start new shiny primarus stuff. hard questions to answer.

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

You may do that, but as people start new armies they'll be picking up the Primaris and not the old guys.

Plus they can give us stuff that regular Marines don't have to compensate.

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Which is why I honestly do not think that's the plan at all.

Primaris are a beginning - not an end. They're an "in" to the hobby, the more option-rich, complex space marine/imperial factions are intended to be the thing that their new player builds into.

That's why primaris are simplified, present in ezbuild forms and starter kits, and compatible with nearly all chapters. They're not intended to be an add-on that appeals to veteran gamers, so veteran gamers create this conspiracy narrative surrounding their introduction to explain the fact that they don't appeal to them.

 Desubot wrote:

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Would they care? what is the percentage of people that would do that. what is the percentage of people that would out right quit or sell their stuff on ebay and start new shiny primarus stuff. hard questions to answer.

They invalidated the Old World in WFB and it precipitated a sea change in not just how the company presents itself, but people actually lost their jobs over how ham-fisted the transition was. I'd say if there are 0lans afoot to invalidate anyone's collection that a lot of people at GW HQ care quite a considerable amount.

I'm in general happy with Primaris.

I don't think Troops need to be changed with them.

I think Charecters should get more options, starting with Inceptor armor, Gravis armor, and options like Inceptor suit with Boltguantlet arms..

Or gravis suit with one arm of Boltguantlet, the other of Heavy bolt pistol from the Inceptor suits.

Reemule wrote:
I'm in general happy with Primaris.

I don't think Troops need to be changed with them.

I think Charecters should get more options, starting with Inceptor armor, Gravis armor, and options like Inceptor suit with Boltguantlet arms..

Or gravis suit with one arm of Boltguantlet, the other of Heavy bolt pistol from the Inceptor suits.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think they're great models. I have a Company of them already. But I also have a full Company of Salamanders that I've painted and converted and lavished attention on for almost two decades. I would be very, very annoyed if they were suddenly invalidated. I would convert them rather than box them up and stick them in the attic.

At least I can still use my Bretonnians in Kings of War or 9th Age.

Wait people got canned for the aos nuke? got some sauce for that?

 greyknight12 wrote:
There was a simple solution called “make them truescsle marines” but we had to butcher some fluff and make new bigger specialer marines.

They were stuck between a rock and a hard-place on this one. They learned from AoS that just outright squatting an army would lead to massive backlash. So, they chose what in my opinion is the "hybrid" approach, with a slow squat. It will take 5-7 years, but eventually Primaris will be the only models available for the marine line. The slow pace will make the transition a lot easier on the players and the company.

But, the other side now has the problem. People who want primaris only armies, have very little in the way of upgrades, units, characters and the like. So they complain.

It was a damned if you don't, damned if you do situation. And I have to say, personally I'd have much rather just had my old marines squatted, reduced to an index faction and replaced than to have this current cluster bomb of a problem.

All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

Totally agree.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

You know. Unless that's not what they're trying to do at all, and they want the new players drawn in by Primaris to expand their armies into the more customizable aspects of the chapter codexes.

Oh no, are they going to stop making Muppets IP now that Sesame Street exists?

Oh no, are they going to slowly phase out Legos with this new Duplo stuff?

what could these marketing teams poooooooossibly be doing here?

What makes you think that? No one really ever liked the baby marine figures.

There was a whole cult of people who played with "true scale" marines. Now we have primaris - it's like they corrected the problem. This is what marines always should have been.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What makes you think that? No one really ever liked the baby marine figures.

There was a whole cult of people who played with "true scale" marines. Now we have primaris - it's like they corrected the problem. This is what marines always should have been.

But is that the majority or the minority.

i mean i love true scale marines. i hate the gak poses of a lot of the older kits (and some of the new kits) but going based off of dakka dakka and a hand full of other "online" data isnt actually going to tell you much.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What makes you think that? No one really ever liked the baby marine figures.

There was a whole cult of people who played with "true scale" marines. Now we have primaris - it's like they corrected the problem. This is what marines always should have been.

But is that the majority or the minority.

i mean i love true scale marines. i hate the gak poses of a lot of the older kits (and some of the new kits) but going based off of dakka dakka and a hand full of other "online" data isnt actually going to tell you much.

youuu're not going to want to get into the idea of unbiased data sampling with Xeno. Remember, this is the "the opinions of my local group of players and the army makeup of our playgroup is more valuable to me than the opinions of top tournament players and the army makeup of aggregates of hundreds of competitive lists" guy.

If he says "no one really liked baby marines" just change that in your brain to "no one in my local group of players and especially myself never liked baby marines" and move on.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

Would need a TON more units and models to make this work.

Also wouldn't be ideal - there are a lot of sweet looking kits folks would hate to lose. I think we should encourage MORE integration, not less. Land Raiders and Stormravens finally letting their nuMarine brethren onboard is a good start.

Just need to consolidate and drop certain marine infantry options. There's so much power armour bloat in that codex.

A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

I think the best way to play Primaris right now is Death Watch, as it allows for awesome unit mixing, makes good use of Special Ammunition and because they actually have Stratagems that apply to them, unlike CSM, which have very select few.

The issue is that Primaris really feel isolated in any book, aside DW, that they are in. Sad, really :/

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

You know. Unless that's not what they're trying to do at all, and they want the new players drawn in by Primaris to expand their armies into the more customizable aspects of the chapter codexes.

Oh no, are they going to stop making Muppets IP now that Sesame Street exists?

Oh no, are they going to slowly phase out Legos with this new Duplo stuff?

what could these marketing teams poooooooossibly be doing here?

Old marines were already an easy entry way. I'm a marine player through and through but I have no illusions that they are by design meant to be an easy army to assemble, paint and play. If they need to dumb that down even more to me that's just bleh. Not to mention the primaris fluff is gak and boring.

Personally, I think the Primaris lack of options is a better design than the extensive tables of model customization with minor point adjustments that have little impact at the scale the game is played. I really wish they'd simplify things down to concepts like "a power weapon" and let players decide if they want to model it as a sword, axe, lance, fist etc. Primaris seem designed more along this line, but they're still tied to a game in which you're buying rules model to model unfortunately.

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

If you also release a primaris only codex, give their own strats. Like give reivers a strat that lets them double the range on the grenades or something. A range of relics that that can all be used by them, etc. At that point they would be very playable.

I really like the primaris, then again I always found the old marines to be very uninspiring. The primaris dreadnought and tank suffer from the problem that they are not as durable vs. shooting given their pt cost so they tend to get shot apart when I do field them.

Edit: The dread and replusor do preform really well when my opponent doesn't have lots of long range anti tank though.

If they were to get their own stand alone codex. id love to see

Vet kit melee shooty duel kit.
Melee based aggressor and inceptor kit
cheaper repulsive chassied transport without the top gun.
bikes

i think thats pretty much all they would need.

The fact that no has said primaris drop pod makes me sad. It's the iconic marine transport and the fact that they can't use them is just dumb.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The fact that no has said primaris drop pod makes me sad. It's the iconic marine transport and the fact that they can't use them is just dumb.

Didn't think of that. Drop pods would be cool, if they weren't overpriced.

The fact that most of the older marine stuff is bad and that primaris and regular marines don't have any cross over to me is the greatest indicator that normal marines will be phased out eventually. GW seems to be going out of their way to keep the two separate and discourage sales of the older models. The only thing that makes me think they will be around for a while is that I don't see 30k getting squatted unless GW is going to dramatically cut back Forge Worlds production.

Do they really need a drop pod though? Inceptors and Reivers drop from low orbit (Deep strike) and everything else via Repulsors currently. Not that anyone would use them anyway as no one uses normal drop pods either.

How many options do people really need anyway? There are already weapons amongst them which are clearly better than the other so why add more pointless chaff than needed. I like the fact that Primaris are more dedicated units than generalists and each Primaris unit so far already has at least 2-3 different variations anyway. What more could you possibly need?

Reemule wrote:
I'm in general happy with Primaris.

I don't think Troops need to be changed with them.

I think Charecters should get more options, starting with Inceptor armor, Gravis armor, and options like Inceptor suit with Boltguantlet arms..

Or gravis suit with one arm of Boltguantlet, the other of Heavy bolt pistol from the Inceptor suits.

Yeah, I am fine with limited legion style option on squads, but the lack of character customisation is areal bummer.

I tend to believe that the 'old' SM range will be killed off, too. IMO, almost all the recent changes are in response to the Chapter House thing and GW finally hiring a lawyer who understands IP. Obviously I can't prove any of this, just my suspicions.

So long as 'Space Marine' is in use, GW are, arguably, vulnerable and prevention is better than cure. Hence Adeptus/Heretic Astartes, Primaris Marine. FWIW, most of the product descriptions on GW's website for Primaris products completely omit the phrase 'Space Marine'.

Banville wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I'm in general happy with Primaris.

I don't think Troops need to be changed with them.

I think Charecters should get more options, starting with Inceptor armor, Gravis armor, and options like Inceptor suit with Boltguantlet arms..

Or gravis suit with one arm of Boltguantlet, the other of Heavy bolt pistol from the Inceptor suits.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think they're great models. I have a Company of them already. But I also have a full Company of Salamanders that I've painted and converted and lavished attention on for almost two decades. I would be very, very annoyed if they were suddenly invalidated. I would convert them rather than box them up and stick them in the attic.

At least I can still use my Bretonnians in Kings of War or 9th Age.

That's what I'm doing, all my grey hunters and bloodclaws, TWC etc. are Primaris kitbashed/converted. You an also use them as Primaris as well:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

A fluff justification, yeah the rhino is a justification. In battle you need cheap transports not just for a battle but to travel and make contact between different companies, also for scouting missions, you don't want to use an expensive piece of kit, you'd rather have a lighter and faster vehicle. Also for transporting supplies, you aren't going to fill up a repulser with ammo to get the ammo from a to b. A repulser is state of the art, its valuable in what it does, only an idiot general would use it as an all purpose vehicle.

Right now, I’m pretty ok with the Primaris setup, though given the chance I would make the following additions –

Melee only version of the Inceptors – I’m thinking power sword or axe and heavy bolt pistol or twin claws.
Inceptor Armour HQ options.
Bolter weapon only Bike/Jetbike squad – no attack bike option.
Bike/Jetbike HQ options.

Oh, and the legendary Overlord flyer (which will be completely priced out of normal play… …)

Beyond that I like that the Primaris are focused and the standard Marines are diverse. Standard tanks and flyers should remain in the hands of normal Marines, along with all the standard weapon choices. If I want a melta or a lascannon I auto think standard Marine, not, “I wish Primaris could have these”.

Maybe they’ll get phased out eventually, but, I think it would require an “end times” or Heresy style event which would involve the fluff destruction of the normal Marines to make it so. And I don’t think that is planned for anytime soon.

[code]

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

A fluff justification, yeah the rhino is a justification. In battle you need cheap transports not just for a battle but to travel and make contact between different companies, also for scouting missions, you don't want to use an expensive piece of kit, you'd rather have a lighter and faster vehicle. Also for transporting supplies, you aren't going to fill up a repulser with ammo to get the ammo from a to b. A repulser is state of the art, its valuable in what it does, only an idiot general would use it as an all purpose vehicle.

But it is an all-purpose vehicle and it is cheap enough to be mass-produced as shown in the fluff. Its a hover tank so its fast, can be deployed from upper atmosphere, it can do every job you need. Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints.

In terms of transporting supplies I don't see a situation where Space Marines need to transport supplies in large quantities and can't use flyers such as the Stormraven, Thunderhawk, Overlord or Drop Pod to deliver them directly to the point of need.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

That's easy. "Well the Repulsor tanks proved their worth easily, during the inital conflicts, it's relitivly slow speed, especially for a speeder, was remarked upon by some chapters.effortds by the white scars to strip down the repulsor's armor and weapons systems for greater speeder and manuverability attracted the attention of ArchMagos Cawl, who used the inspiration to devise the "Jaghati light hover transport"

 Deadshot wrote:
[code]

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

A fluff justification, yeah the rhino is a justification. In battle you need cheap transports not just for a battle but to travel and make contact between different companies, also for scouting missions, you don't want to use an expensive piece of kit, you'd rather have a lighter and faster vehicle. Also for transporting supplies, you aren't going to fill up a repulser with ammo to get the ammo from a to b. A repulser is state of the art, its valuable in what it does, only an idiot general would use it as an all purpose vehicle.

But it is an all-purpose vehicle and it is cheap enough to be mass-produced as shown in the fluff. Its a hover tank so its fast, can be deployed from upper atmosphere, it can do every job you need. Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints.

In terms of transporting supplies I don't see a situation where Space Marines need to transport supplies in large quantities and can't use flyers such as the Stormraven, Thunderhawk, Overlord or Drop Pod to deliver them directly to the point of need.

ALL, vehicles are mass produced. Being mass produced does not mean it has to be cheap. Its not an all purpose vehicle either, Nowhere in the lore suggests its all-purpose.

"Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints." this is pure conjecture, plus all of those things can be made to order. land speeders are rarer because not every forge can make them, yet they are still ubiquitous throughout all chapters.

'In honour of the Khan's traditional cavalry background, this lighter transport was named the MUSTANG. Medium Utility Shock Transport And Neutralisation Gunship.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

Veterans with Autoguns did strike me as a bit strange -

But yeah, probably the dreadful reality of it. It's a massive insult to the old guard of avid modellers and converters, everyone who has ever pondered building their own Dominus from no visual frame of reference, and to all the fantastic White Dwarf articles by Phil Lewis and Jervis Johnson that had me building barns out of ice lolly sticks. The inevitable death of Rough Riders is what hurts the most though. God forbid any humans have sensible mounts, AoS and otherwise. But I guess you can't trademark that. /rant

BrianDavion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

That's easy. "Well the Repulsor tanks proved their worth easily, during the inital conflicts, it's relitivly slow speed, especially for a speeder, was remarked upon by some chapters.effortds by the white scars to strip down the repulsor's armor and weapons systems for greater speeder and manuverability attracted the attention of ArchMagos Cawl, who used the inspiration to devise the "Jaghati light hover transport"

I do stand corrected, fair play that is a decent backstory and one I could get behind.

I do note however this is opposite of Razorbacking. Razorback added guns to the standard transport, this seems to be taking away. Is therefore the Jaghataii Light Hover Transport, the Primaris Rhino? Philosophical questions galore.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

ALL, vehicles are mass produced. Being mass produced does not mean it has to be cheap. Its not an all purpose vehicle either, Nowhere in the lore suggests its all-purpose.

"Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints." this is pure conjecture, plus all of those things can be made to order. land speeders are rarer because not every forge can make them, yet they are still ubiquitous throughout all chapters.

Vehicles in 40k are not mass-produced. Many extracts tell of how each nut and screw must be blessed 3 times on the Emperor's birthday and each plate must be inscribed with litanies of Don't Break Soon before the vehicle is ready. Plus each vehicle must be made according to STC data and trying to innovate is Heresy. The Repulsor is brand new and so free from those limitations as it borders on Heretekal. The fact that Repuslors can be made in mass quantities and distributed widely across the Imperium in such a short space of time indicates that its relatively cheap and easy.

It is an all-purpose vehicle. Fluff doesn't need to explicit state that it is, you can figure that out just looking at it. It has more guns than most MBTs, it has a transport capacity on-par with APCs, it has hover plates that allow it to transverse terrain like a Land Speeder. It can do the jobs of a Rhino, Predator, or Land Speeder and surpasses the first two in that regard. It isn't as durable as a Land Raider but is as big and intimidating and has the Machine Spirit of one.

sphynx wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

Veterans with Autoguns did strike me as a bit strange -

But yeah, probably the dreadful reality of it. It's a massive insult to the old guard of avid modellers and converters, everyone who has ever pondered building their own Dominus from no visual frame of reference, and to all the fantastic White Dwarf articles by Phil Lewis and Jervis Johnson that had me building barns out of ice lolly sticks. The inevitable death of Rough Riders is what hurts the most though. God forbid any humans have sensible mounts, AoS and otherwise. But I guess you can't trademark that. /rant

It really is heartbreaking to see them kill of conversions. Back in the end of 5th Ed I was converting up all the Space Marine characters and all of a sudden told I can't combined them together even though the last codex explicitly let me. A Space Marine kitbash is one thing but I bet there are so many people out there devastated by their loving handcrafted (and officially encouraged) conversions being invalidated and removed because of the ChapterHouse case. GW aren't going to go back on it either, as it encourages more sales of official kits.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

That's easy. "Well the Repulsor tanks proved their worth easily, during the inital conflicts, it's relitivly slow speed, especially for a speeder, was remarked upon by some chapters.effortds by the white scars to strip down the repulsor's armor and weapons systems for greater speeder and manuverability attracted the attention of ArchMagos Cawl, who used the inspiration to devise the "Jaghati light hover transport"

I do stand corrected, fair play that is a decent backstory and one I could get behind.

I do note however this is opposite of Razorbacking. Razorback added guns to the standard transport, this seems to be taking away. Is therefore the Jaghataii Light Hover Transport, the Primaris Rhino? Philosophical questions galore.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

ALL, vehicles are mass produced. Being mass produced does not mean it has to be cheap. Its not an all purpose vehicle either, Nowhere in the lore suggests its all-purpose.

"Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints." this is pure conjecture, plus all of those things can be made to order. land speeders are rarer because not every forge can make them, yet they are still ubiquitous throughout all chapters.

Vehicles in 40k are not mass-produced. Many extracts tell of how each nut and screw must be blessed 3 times on the Emperor's birthday and each plate must be inscribed with litanies of Don't Break Soon before the vehicle is ready. Plus each vehicle must be made according to STC data and trying to innovate is Heresy. The Repulsor is brand new and so free from those limitations as it borders on Heretekal. The fact that Repuslors can be made in mass quantities and distributed widely across the Imperium in such a short space of time indicates that its relatively cheap and easy.

It is an all-purpose vehicle. Fluff doesn't need to explicit state that it is, you can figure that out just looking at it. It has more guns than most MBTs, it has a transport capacity on-par with APCs, it has hover plates that allow it to transverse terrain like a Land Speeder. It can do the jobs of a Rhino, Predator, or Land Speeder and surpasses the first two in that regard. It isn't as durable as a Land Raider but is as big and intimidating and has the Machine Spirit of one.

sphynx wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

Veterans with Autoguns did strike me as a bit strange -

But yeah, probably the dreadful reality of it. It's a massive insult to the old guard of avid modellers and converters, everyone who has ever pondered building their own Dominus from no visual frame of reference, and to all the fantastic White Dwarf articles by Phil Lewis and Jervis Johnson that had me building barns out of ice lolly sticks. The inevitable death of Rough Riders is what hurts the most though. God forbid any humans have sensible mounts, AoS and otherwise. But I guess you can't trademark that. /rant

It really is heartbreaking to see them kill of conversions. Back in the end of 5th Ed I was converting up all the Space Marine characters and all of a sudden told I can't combined them together even though the last codex explicitly let me. A Space Marine kitbash is one thing but I bet there are so many people out there devastated by their loving handcrafted (and officially encouraged) conversions being invalidated and removed because of the ChapterHouse case. GW aren't going to go back on it either, as it encourages more sales of official kits.

"Vehicles in 40k are not mass-produced. Many extracts tell of how each nut and screw must be blessed 3 times on the Emperor's birthday and each plate must be inscribed with litanies of Don't Break Soon before the vehicle is ready. Plus each vehicle must be made according to STC data and trying to innovate is Heresy. The Repulsor is brand new and so free from those limitations as it borders on Heretekal. The fact that Repuslors can be made in mass quantities and distributed widely across the Imperium in such a short space of time indicates that its relatively cheap and easy."

Who cares if they are blessed 3 times, they are still mass-produced, the repulsor is still blessed three times for every screw as well. The repulsor is not completely brand new it is based on STC technology.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

You know. Unless that's not what they're trying to do at all, and they want the new players drawn in by Primaris to expand their armies into the more customizable aspects of the chapter codexes.

Oh no, are they going to stop making Muppets IP now that Sesame Street exists?

Oh no, are they going to slowly phase out Legos with this new Duplo stuff?

what could these marketing teams poooooooossibly be doing here?

If you're going to mock me at least be funny.

What I was trying to get with the razorback comment was I think primaris need a cheaper transport option. A smaller lighter APC, or perhaps something that is much faster akin to a land speeder storm, drop pods, etc. Currently the replusor feels much more like a land raider than a standard APC, and since primaris can't go in normal marine transports for some reason this is one area they are really lacking in options.

Also I do agree that the their HQs desperately need more options. I have opted for normal marine HQs in my mixed space marine force because they have much more options.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

You know. Unless that's not what they're trying to do at all, and they want the new players drawn in by Primaris to expand their armies into the more customizable aspects of the chapter codexes.

Oh no, are they going to stop making Muppets IP now that Sesame Street exists?

Oh no, are they going to slowly phase out Legos with this new Duplo stuff?

what could these marketing teams poooooooossibly be doing here?

If you're going to mock me at least be funny.

Just amusing to me that dedicated fans of nearly any given franchise never seem to have any ability to comprehend when something might just be aimed at a different market share that is not them, and so often find it more plausible that there is a conspiracy within the franchise to either A) drive off their business or B ) destroy the franchise entirely.

But then they turn around and in fields other than entertainment, products from the same company that aim for different marketshares are seen as a completely normal thing.

If the company that produces your MANRAZORS with SEPTUPLE BLADES for only the toughest, manliest stubble turns around and introduces a new line of pink venus smoothglide delicate touch razors - specially engineered for a woman's body...you don't jump to the conclusion that your razors are going to be phased out. It's just completely normal marketing.

It becomes even more obvious when the same company is clearly looking to groom new consumers into their brand. The same company that produces ultra-gritty violent live-action batman movies and comics also produces happy sanitized Batman and Friends cartoons.

So when games workshop creates new marines with a simplified loadout, designs that very clearly ape off of popular looks and trends among modern young kids (look at Call of Duty promo art. Now look at a Reiver. now look back at Call of Duty.) and give them ez-build kits, put them in all the starter packs, and give them saturday morning cartoon fluff, how does this indicate a conspiracy to alienate their largest and most dedicated fanbase?

It becomes even more obvious when the same company is clearly looking to groom new consumers into their brand. The same company that produces ultra-gritty violent live-action batman movies and comics also produces happy sanitized Batman and Friends cartoons.

Wouldn't use comics as an example how someone can be safe about his man cave only hobby. DC is doing a bit better then marvel, but still not strong argument.

But from the looks of things, I think that GW wanted to reset the line, but was afraid of a AoS style backlash. And while with AoS they could only gain, losing W40k players and buyers would be a much different thing. Plus there seems to be the whole no new rules without a model thing. So the primaris end up like they do now.

They fluff though, is real bad though, it is one thing to not make sense in our world, but it is a whole different thing to make no sense within the setting own rules of how the world works. I would be too hard on GW writers though, well the fluff ones at least, it is not like they are some genius tier super writers, that are lazy when doing w40k stuff. The stuff we get seems, the thing they find cool ,and that can be subjective, and they genuinely seem to be doing the best they can do. So expecting them to write the new War&Peace is a tad unrealistic.

Karol wrote:

It becomes even more obvious when the same company is clearly looking to groom new consumers into their brand. The same company that produces ultra-gritty violent live-action batman movies and comics also produces happy sanitized Batman and Friends cartoons.

Wouldn't use comics as an example how someone can be safe about his man cave only hobby. DC is doing a bit better then marvel, but still not strong argument.

But from the looks of things, I think that GW wanted to reset the line, but was afraid of a AoS style backlash. And while with AoS they could only gain, losing W40k players and buyers would be a much different thing. Plus there seems to be the whole no new rules without a model thing. So the primaris end up like they do now.

They fluff though, is real bad though, it is one thing to not make sense in our world, but it is a whole different thing to make no sense within the setting own rules of how the world works. I would be too hard on GW writers though, well the fluff ones at least, it is not like they are some genius tier super writers, that are lazy when doing w40k stuff. The stuff we get seems, the thing they find cool ,and that can be subjective, and they genuinely seem to be doing the best they can do. So expecting them to write the new War&Peace is a tad unrealistic.

Yeah it's almost like products aimed at a younger audience tend to not care about internal consistency nearly as much because kids tend to notice those things less.

Is there a word for when a segment of a fanbase or population becomes so convinced of their own central focus to the thing they're involved in that everything that happens must involve them and when it doesn't, it must involve them secretly/behind the scenes?

It's like when you take some guy just making random, vague statements hundreds of years ago and you have people saying "this must be a prediction pertaining to the current year!" "oh, here's when he predicted our current president!" "oh man this HAS to be a prediction about the invention of the current Iphone design!"

One thing fluff wise I think they really missed was having the a prominent chapter tell Bobby G to stuff it. I knew GW wouldn't do it but it would have been cool to have had the Space Wolves stay in character and reject an Ultramarine telling them to do something.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing fluff wise I think they really missed was having the a prominent chapter tell Bobby G to stuff it. I knew GW wouldn't do it but it would have been cool to have had the Space Wolves stay in character and reject an Ultramarine telling them to do something.

Dark Millennium hints at it (by mentioning something along the lines of "among the chapters who have adopted the technology"), and unless something changed, didn't the Flesh Tearers reject the idea of taking in Primaris? You know, since Seth's thing is to have his chapter die heroes before they devolve into villians?

It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

Big difference was that it was Russ telling Guilliman no, they weren't half crippled by having Magnus screwing with their planet and the new kids still have Space Wolves geneseed in them, only it's the purest geneseed they could get their hands outside of Terra, giving them the hope that the whole chapter could avoid turning into Wulfen.

Basically while telling Guilliman to stuff it over a new organization did indeed happen, turning down people who share your own blood wouldn't have made as much sense for them.

Chapters I could see turning down Primaris would be ones like the Flesh Tearers (who are basically on a death crusade), Carachadons (who tend to be rather isolationist to a rather unnerving extent) and chapters that may or may not be dead (Lamenters) though that wouldn't stop Guilliman from recreating the lost chapter as Primaris (Primaris Rainbow Warriors perhaps?). Which could be fun for how the chapter shows up to find out that everyone thought they were dead and they were literally replaced.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

The Space Wolves ultimately would have said yes through from a logical stand point considering after the fiasco at Fenris they were borderline extinct. Hard to recoup your losses when most of your recruiting world's population is dead. Sure, like the Codex said, there were wary Wolf Lords concerned its a ploy by Guilliman to finally enforce the Codex (which I mean honestly if he cared that much he would have done it back then). But ultimately its fresh bodies for a group that badly needed them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

Big difference was that it was Russ telling Guilliman no, they weren't half crippled by having Magnus screwing with their planet and the new kids still have Space Wolves geneseed in them, only it's the purest geneseed they could get their hands outside of Terra, giving them the hope that the whole chapter could avoid turning into Wulfen.

Basically while telling Guilliman to stuff it over a new organization did indeed happen, turning down people who share your own blood wouldn't have made as much sense for them.

Chapters I could see turning down Primaris would be ones like the Flesh Tearers (who are basically on a death crusade), Carachadons (who tend to be rather isolationist to a rather unnerving extent) and chapters that may or may not be dead (Lamenters) though that wouldn't stop Guilliman from recreating the lost chapter as Primaris (Primaris Rainbow Warriors perhaps?). Which could be fun for how the chapter shows up to find out that everyone thought they were dead and they were literally replaced.

Carcharodons were confirmed to have acquired the Primaris technology through other means. Kinda like that angle of them.

I imagine all CANON chapters will have primaris Marines. the "some refused it" is more GW giving people who don't want Primaris in their homebrew chapter a way to do it.

All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

Would of been a cool way to add more sub chapters and flesh out more lore.

its still possible to add through black library but eh.

All of the above. It's one of the reason I don't like that there has been a time skip with only snip its released. The Imperium is loathed to the concepts of change, new tech, innovation. Then Suddenly Marty Sue Cawl is pulling all kinds of new / lost tech out of every where.

Once again, just because you don't like Cawl that doesn't mean he's a Mary Sue. Learn your terms.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
All of the above. It's one of the reason I don't like that there has been a time skip with only snip its released. The Imperium is loathed to the concepts of change, new tech, innovation. Then Suddenly Marty Sue Cawl is pulling all kinds of new / lost tech out of every where.

It could of been such a big opportunity to add a hand full of new characters to sell too.

imagine a captain america style little civil war with an opportunity to focus a little on the iron hands whom have no character model. especially considering their whole metal fetish, they probably would be the last group to want primarus super meat bags.

the_scotsman 762917 1013094 wrote:

Yeah it's almost like products aimed at a younger audience tend to not care about internal consistency nearly as much because kids tend to notice those things less.

Is there a word for when a segment of a fanbase or population becomes so convinced of their own central focus to the thing they're involved in that everything that happens must involve them and when it doesn't, it must involve them secretly/behind the scenes?

It's like when you take some guy just making random, vague statements hundreds of years ago and you have people saying "this must be a prediction pertaining to the current year!" "oh, here's when he predicted our current president!" "oh man this HAS to be a prediction about the invention of the current Iphone design!"

I think it is the cost armies have, both money and time, and as we know time is money. When you spend 700-800$ you feel like GW ows you something, specialy if the list doesn't work that well. People seem to not take it well that GW doesn't care about people that already bought stuff, they care about people that are willing to buy more stuff and that is it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, just because you don't like Cawl that doesn't mean he's a Mary Sue. Learn your terms.

he is a tech heretic from the point of view of anyone who knows how law works in the w40k world. The modification of sacred gene seed, something the Emperor made himself is hereticus diabolis. Remember we are talking about a setting, where no one uses Land Raiders ,in fluff, because durning the heresy big E made an edict they are for space marine use only.

 Desubot wrote:
All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

He did effectively re-conquer ultimar from corrupt administrations, mean while, they're space marines, they're quite literally programmed to defer to a primarch and modern space marines don't have the conditioning of being previously exposed to one. And many of them were fresh from stompings, in desperate need and then promptly handed a bigger gun. It does amount to little more than a footnote, but what else is going to happen when someone's appointed imperial regent, has a legit claim, and somewhere north of 60% of marines effectively on his side.

And let's be entirely honest, 40k has been adding a LOT of new stuff into the game for a decade now. Not just models, but, this never existed until now but hey totally they found an STC or something. Which is roughly how Cawl plays off his blatant tech heresy to Gulliman. The RPGs in particular added a whole lot of random innovation that didn't really mesh with the idea of utter stagnancy. But that's just a natural result of freezing a time line while focusing on the end of it for some reason when they had 10k years to explore.

I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

 Desubot wrote:
I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

it's proably a footnote because 99% of the post Gathering storm is at best a footnote, for feth's sake show some patience and let things get fleshed out a bit first. as for a "massive civil war over it" quite frankly that would have been kinda boring TBH, as it's been done to death. A lotta people need to understand who Gulliman is within the setting, we're entirely too jaded and too many people made hating on Gulliman an "in thing" after the Space Marine WardDex.

Gulliman isn't JUST a Primarch, although that in and of itself is pretty damn big remember these guys are considered sons of the emperor, and are Imperial Saints, Gulliman is a RELIGIOUS figure. In addition, he's the primarch of the buk of the space marines in existance. something like 65% of space marine chapters have proably been brought up holding him in special reverance, in addition to his whole primarch thing, he's ALSO politically "kind of a big deal" this is the man who effectivly ran the Imperium following the Heresy, from a governmental POV he's also seen as pretty major. There are an aweful lot of things that "can';t be changed because they where set by the sainted Gulliman" that obviously does not apply to the sainted Gulliman.
Beyond just who Gulliman is personally, he also has the Custodes behind him 100% and met with the Emperor (something that is disgustingly rare in 40k) which means Gulliman has, in the eys of most people, a quite literally, divine mandate.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

it's proably a footnote because 99% of the post Gathering storm is at best a footnote, for feth's sake show some patience and let things get fleshed out a bit first. as for a "massive civil war over it" quite frankly that would have been kinda boring TBH, as it's been done to death. A lotta people need to understand who Gulliman is within the setting, we're entirely too jaded and too many people made hating on Gulliman an "in thing" after the Space Marine WardDex.

Gulliman isn't JUST a Primarch, although that in and of itself is pretty damn big remember these guys are considered sons of the emperor, and are Imperial Saints, Gulliman is a RELIGIOUS figure. In addition, he's the primarch of the buk of the space marines in existance. something like 65% of space marine chapters have proably been brought up holding him in special reverance, in addition to his whole primarch thing, he's ALSO politically "kind of a big deal" this is the man who effectivly ran the Imperium following the Heresy, from a governmental POV he's also seen as pretty major. There are an aweful lot of things that "can';t be changed because they where set by the sainted Gulliman" that obviously does not apply to the sainted Gulliman.
Beyond just who Gulliman is personally, he also has the Custodes behind him 100% and met with the Emperor (something that is disgustingly rare in 40k) which means Gulliman has, in the eys of most people, a quite literally, divine mandate.

Yeah people seem to forget how illogical the setting is, to be honest. If a demi-god comes about and tells you to obey him, you most likely do that.

 Desubot wrote:
All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

Would of been a cool way to add more sub chapters and flesh out more lore.

its still possible to add through black library but eh.

GW tells a lot of stories in arcs and seeing as this is basically them getting all the pieces into place, we can still have a mini civil war, but if/when it happens it's going to involve a Primarch who disagrees with Guilliman's efforts and pulls the Imperium in a different direction.


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Karol wrote:
he is a tech heretic from the point of view of anyone who knows how law works in the w40k world. The modification of sacred gene seed, something the Emperor made himself is hereticus diabolis. Remember we are talking about a setting, where no one uses Land Raiders ,in fluff, because durning the heresy big E made an edict they are for space marine use only.

First off the Mechanicus has tampered with the geneseed several times, so no, it's not that sacred. Cawl didn't even tamper with it directly as he only used the more pure stuff out of the vaults and added some implants to the process, not changing the core geneseed like what was done with a chapter like the Lamenters. Or the Black Dragons. Or the Fire Falcons.

Also Hereticus Diabolis involves daemons.

And I don't recall any lore that said that the geneseed was to never be improved or the like.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

it's proably a footnote because 99% of the post Gathering storm is at best a footnote, for feth's sake show some patience and let things get fleshed out a bit first. as for a "massive civil war over it" quite frankly that would have been kinda boring TBH, as it's been done to death. A lotta people need to understand who Gulliman is within the setting, we're entirely too jaded and too many people made hating on Gulliman an "in thing" after the Space Marine WardDex.

Gulliman isn't JUST a Primarch, although that in and of itself is pretty damn big remember these guys are considered sons of the emperor, and are Imperial Saints, Gulliman is a RELIGIOUS figure. In addition, he's the primarch of the buk of the space marines in existance. something like 65% of space marine chapters have proably been brought up holding him in special reverance, in addition to his whole primarch thing, he's ALSO politically "kind of a big deal" this is the man who effectivly ran the Imperium following the Heresy, from a governmental POV he's also seen as pretty major. There are an aweful lot of things that "can';t be changed because they where set by the sainted Gulliman" that obviously does not apply to the sainted Gulliman.
Beyond just who Gulliman is personally, he also has the Custodes behind him 100% and met with the Emperor (something that is disgustingly rare in 40k) which means Gulliman has, in the eys of most people, a quite literally, divine mandate.

Just to add - divine mandate is the best description. Guilliman to the people of 40k is as if Jesus Christ himself came to Earth, could prove it was him, was official endorsed by the Pope and all the vatican and all leaders of the various other Christian sects, and then started a massive Crusade to remove terrorism, paedophiles and other religions. He comes with him bearing new and improved Bible, and a bunch of kick ass warriors and weapons to help fight off all the other religions and beliefs. He brings with him a host of God's ass-kicking-est Angel Warriors. He also has a big "something" that literally belongs to god and you can feel the presence of God from the "something,"

Name me 1 christian who wouldn't follow Jesus' every command without hesitate


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

Would of been a cool way to add more sub chapters and flesh out more lore.

its still possible to add through black library but eh.

GW tells a lot of stories in arcs and seeing as this is basically them getting all the pieces into place, we can still have a mini civil war, but if/when it happens it's going to involve a Primarch who disagrees with Guilliman's efforts and pulls the Imperium in a different direction.


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Karol wrote:
he is a tech heretic from the point of view of anyone who knows how law works in the w40k world. The modification of sacred gene seed, something the Emperor made himself is hereticus diabolis. Remember we are talking about a setting, where no one uses Land Raiders ,in fluff, because durning the heresy big E made an edict they are for space marine use only.

First off the Mechanicus has tampered with the geneseed several times, so no, it's not that sacred. Cawl didn't even tamper with it directly as he only used the more pure stuff out of the vaults and added some implants to the process, not changing the core geneseed like what was done with a chapter like the Lamenters. Or the Black Dragons. Or the Fire Falcons.

Also Hereticus Diabolis involves daemons.

And I don't recall any lore that said that the geneseed was to never be improved or the like.

Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

the main reason Primaris don't come with loads of options is GW don't want pure Primaris forces they want you to still buy traditional Space Marine forces with Primaris as extra.


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For example Primaris lack very long range firepower so you have to bring in Preds or Devs or Dakka Dreads.

And since they can only take a Repulsor as a transport or a Land Raider Tacs have them beaten for manouverability.

except in this case you got the Custodes coming forward and saying "This is the emperor's will" Very clearly, qwith an under current of "and if you don't accept the emperor's will we're gonna consider you a traitor"

From Codex Custodes:

Through the artiface of the Martian Priesthood were these warriors created. By the graces of the almighty Emperor are they given to you now. Silence your questions and instead rejoice at the honour done to you this day. You are handed this gift of hope by the immortal master of mankind himself, and you will accept it with sincere and solemn gratitude least you be taken for the traitors that you profess to hate" - Sanash Gallimedan Emissary Imperatus to the Hammers of Dorn Chapter

- Codex CUstodea page 28

So yeah you have the Custodes (and a segment of them that are considered to be the ones who best speak for the emperor at that) outright telling people "This is the emperor's will made manifest" they're not going to question it. least the god damned Custodes declare them traitors and kill em.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

So first off, we have actual evidence that the geneseed has been tampered with in the past (the entire Lamenters chapter is based around this being a thing and their removal of the Black Rage making them super unlucky only to see them be so unlucky they got the Black Rage back anyways. So any premise of "you can't do that, it's HERESY!" is thrown out the window because it's been part of the lore for ages now.

And you're wrong about the God Maker. It's half of a Primarch organ with the other half missing and the information about what the other half was also being missing (considering the nature of the Primarchs it was likely Warp Stuff). Seriously, you're not even on the right page about what the new stuff is and trying to argue from that position is silly.

And Cawl is recorded as being someone who was involved in the Emperor's Geneseed work and there is still enough time in the Heresy for anything he does to be given the big E's permission or him to be involved in forming the Grey Knights (which could explain one of his mindwipes).

People are reaching waaaay too far to argue heresy over the geneseed when the real heresy is in things like the Cawl Inferior which Guilliman can feel is heavily warp related but can't prove it because while he's sensitive to warp energy he isn't a psyker so he can't prove that Cawl is lying about how the thing works.


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 Corennus wrote:
the main reason Primaris don't come with loads of options is GW don't want pure Primaris forces they want you to still buy traditional Space Marine forces with Primaris as extra.


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For example Primaris lack very long range firepower so you have to bring in Preds or Devs or Dakka Dreads.

And since they can only take a Repulsor as a transport or a Land Raider Tacs have them beaten for manouverability.

Primaris have 1 year or releases compared to 30 years of Space Marines being supported. Of course Primaris are going to be more limited and unsupported by comparison. Give it a few years before we start arguing that they're not going to be fully supported like the Marines were.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

So first off, we have actual evidence that the geneseed has been tampered with in the past (the entire Lamenters chapter is based around this being a thing and their removal of the Black Rage making them super unlucky only to see them be so unlucky they got the Black Rage back anyways. So any premise of "you can't do that, it's HERESY!" is thrown out the window because it's been part of the lore for ages now.

Just because its in the lore still doesn't mean its Heresy. And its a different situation - Lamentors are fixing a deteriorated geneseed, which is far removed from its original design and thus failing. Cawl is taking the pure origin stock and trying to make it even better. Numbers - Lamentors are trying to bring their geneseed from 60% purity to 100%, Cawl is trying to take 100% and make 150%.

And you're wrong about the God Maker. It's half of a Primarch organ with the other half missing and the information about what the other half was also being missing (considering the nature of the Primarchs it was likely Warp Stuff). Seriously, you're not even on the right page about what the new stuff is and trying to argue from that position is silly.

How am I wrong when we said the exact same thing? Its half of a Primarch organ with the info on that half missing...

All I'm saying is that the Emperor made the Immortis Gland. He designed and bioengineered the organ himself and put one into each Primarch. He could have easily put one into each Space Marine, but did not. The records were destroyed and the only person who could have destroyed them were the Emperor, or someone with his explicit permission and instruction of how to do so.

And Cawl is recorded as being someone who was involved in the Emperor's Geneseed work and there is still enough time in the Heresy for anything he does to be given the big E's permission or him to be involved in forming the Grey Knights (which could explain one of his mindwipes).

His mindwipes are exactly the reason he is committing Heresy - he can't say for certain that he DID get permission to tamper with the Emperor's sacred work, therefore he cannot justify doing so. If I tried to use that argument, it would not go well - "Well, no one said I COULDN'T alter the bank codes but I thought the bank owner would be okay or not notice."

People are reaching waaaay too far to argue heresy over the geneseed when the real heresy is in things like the Cawl Inferior which Guilliman can feel is heavily warp related but can't prove it because while he's sensitive to warp energy he isn't a psyker so he can't prove that Cawl is lying about how the thing works.

Don't even get me started on the Cawl 2, its definitely heretical. And 1 heresy means Cawl has probably committed many. Heresy is the strictest law there is and someone who plays fast and loose with the rules isn't to be trusted to follow them in other situations.

 Deadshot wrote:


Name me 1 christian who wouldn't follow Jesus' every command without hesitate

I would say most of them. God declared "Thou shall not kill", and humans have spent every day since then looking for loopholes in the commandment. Self internet can be more powerful than a Deity.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Name me 1 christian who wouldn't follow Jesus' every command without hesitate

I would say most of them. God declared "Thou shall not kill", and humans have spent every day since then looking for loopholes in the commandment. Self internet can be more powerful than a Deity.

Fair enough. What if, instead of "Thou shall not kill," God's Commandment was "Thou shall do what the feth I tell you to, especially killing things!"?

Whole different ballgame.

 Deadshot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

So first off, we have actual evidence that the geneseed has been tampered with in the past (the entire Lamenters chapter is based around this being a thing and their removal of the Black Rage making them super unlucky only to see them be so unlucky they got the Black Rage back anyways. So any premise of "you can't do that, it's HERESY!" is thrown out the window because it's been part of the lore for ages now.

Just because its in the lore still doesn't mean its Heresy. And its a different situation - Lamentors are fixing a deteriorated geneseed, which is far removed from its original design and thus failing. Cawl is taking the pure origin stock and trying to make it even better. Numbers - Lamentors are trying to bring their geneseed from 60% purity to 100%, Cawl is trying to take 100% and make 150%.
Cawl isn't trying to improve it's purity, he's trying to improve the performance levels of the Marine that it's implanted in. Making him bigger, stronger and harder to kill and the fact he succeeded proves that the limits of flesh haven't been fully reached.

And you're wrong about the God Maker. It's half of a Primarch organ with the other half missing and the information about what the other half was also being missing (considering the nature of the Primarchs it was likely Warp Stuff). Seriously, you're not even on the right page about what the new stuff is and trying to argue from that position is silly.

How am I wrong when we said the exact same thing? Its half of a Primarch organ with the info on that half missing...

All I'm saying is that the Emperor made the Immortis Gland. He designed and bioengineered the organ himself and put one into each Primarch. He could have easily put one into each Space Marine, but did not. The records were destroyed and the only person who could have destroyed them were the Emperor, or someone with his explicit permission and instruction of how to do so.
What you originally said read more like that Cawl used the other half of the gland as well and that no one knew what it was making it possible heresy, when all he did was clone the half he had and used it as an implant (and he's got cloning tech down thanks to him eating the mind of his teacher during the Heresy). And it's also possible that the records were damaged or destroyed when the Primarchs were stolen. Remember, that wasn't a quiet event, but rather one that involved a warp rift being opened in the labs.

And Cawl is recorded as being someone who was involved in the Emperor's Geneseed work and there is still enough time in the Heresy for anything he does to be given the big E's permission or him to be involved in forming the Grey Knights (which could explain one of his mindwipes).

His mindwipes are exactly the reason he is committing Heresy - he can't say for certain that he DID get permission to tamper with the Emperor's sacred work, therefore he cannot justify doing so. If I tried to use that argument, it would not go well - "Well, no one said I COULDN'T alter the bank codes but I thought the bank owner would be okay or not notice."
His mindwipes are why he doesn't know everything he's got cooking up at any given time (that and basically being a conductor of hundreds of splinters of his consciousness). Having permission when he started the project, or even permission to work on geneseed in general would have come before he forgot he was working on it. Plus with Guilliman's backing during the Scouring he had permission by the person closest to the Emperor and who represented the will of the Emperor to the rest of the Imperium. Considering the Custodian support in 40k now Cawl has gotten retroactive permission from the Emperor at least to upgrade the Marines.

People are reaching waaaay too far to argue heresy over the geneseed when the real heresy is in things like the Cawl Inferior which Guilliman can feel is heavily warp related but can't prove it because while he's sensitive to warp energy he isn't a psyker so he can't prove that Cawl is lying about how the thing works.

Don't even get me started on the Cawl 2, its definitely heretical. And 1 heresy means Cawl has probably committed many. Heresy is the strictest law there is and someone who plays fast and loose with the rules isn't to be trusted to follow them in other situations.
Oh I agree he's likely walking a fine line between loyalist and heretek, but geneseed isn't likely the place he's doing it (as long as he leaves that traitor and lost primarch stuff alone, but seeing as the Imperium may have used it in the past it's possible he didn't leave it alone eaither leading to him having used it before Guilliman woke up to tell him not too.

Replies in yellow because I hate mucking with quote tags in the morning.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Snip.

I agree with most of what you say, on a technical basis I disagree but the parts I disagree on are semantics and technicalities and not enough to actually argue over. What I refute is the statement that he is trying to improve the Marine, not the geneseed.

It essentially amounts to the same thing that Fabius Bile does. Both are basically saying "its good, but could be better." True, because obviously there are Bile's enhanced and Cawl's Primaris, but in both cases, they are saying the Emperor's work was not perfect, which is a crime and a heresy in of itself.

You also further prove my point that Cawl and the Lamentors is not the same. As I said, the Lamentors are simply restoring their geneseed to its original state, where Cawl is inventing new stuff to make Space Marines better still.

 Deadshot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Snip.

I agree with most of what you say, on a technical basis I disagree but the parts I disagree on are semantics and technicalities and not enough to actually argue over. What I refute is the statement that he is trying to improve the Marine, not the geneseed.

It essentially amounts to the same thing that Fabius Bile does. Both are basically saying "its good, but could be better." True, because obviously there are Bile's enhanced and Cawl's Primaris, but in both cases, they are saying the Emperor's work was not perfect, which is a crime and a heresy in of itself.

You also further prove my point that Cawl and the Lamentors is not the same. As I said, the Lamentors are simply restoring their geneseed to its original state, where Cawl is inventing new stuff to make Space Marines better still.

Cawl isn't sticking daemon stuff into a human body with geneseed and calling it an Astartes though. He's using information he's gained from working with the Emperor paired with presumably a lot of trial and error. I've got some headcanon rolling around that he may have used some of the casualties during the Scouring to test his Furnance implant (like say some of the Imperial Fists who were "rescued" by the Ultramarines post Iron Cage) to fine tune it so it didn't just cause massive tumors by the unchecked cell growth.

And while you want to claim heresy, again LAMENTERS, BLACK DRAGONS and FIRE FALCONS are proof that the Mechanicus will try ANYTHING to get more mileage out of the Astartes. Cawl's acts aren't new and for all we know are sanctioned. You're imposing rules where the lore doesn't explicitly state there ever were any rules. In fact, the lore apparently disagrees with you but you want to head canon that it's the way you see it instead of admitting that the game has always had the Mechanicus being the mad scientists of the Imperium who often much about with what they don't understand. Hell, some might even consider Cawl's work an Omnissiah driven extension of the original project instead of foul tampering.

And the Lamenters were not restoring the geneseed to it's original state. If they wanted to do that they could have used the original geneseed in the vaults of Terra as a starting point. No, something was done to that geneseed to try and "fix" it. Just using the original geneseed wouldn't have made people naturally dislike them upon meeting them or plague them with an almost supernatural level of bad luck (traits shared with the Afriel Strain project which tried to tamper with humanity to artificially uplift them but somehow made them as disliked as Pariahs and unluckier than a Bad Luck Brian meme).

I get it, you REALLY want Cawl's work to be heresy, but the heresy isn't in the new implants as much as what he likely did to make them work, or what he does with traitor geneseed when Guilliman isn't watching. Hell even the Emperor needed to make a deal with the ruinous powers to properly make the Primarchs (which is likely why Bile's clones were failures, they didn't have that warp stuff the Primarchs need to work properly) and it wouldn't shock me if Cawl had to walk a similar path to get the god maker working in the base marines.

But no, we have no actual evidence in the lore that doing anything to fix the geneseed is any kind of heresy. So leave the geneseed itself alone and look more on how Cawl achieves his end goals: by any means necessary (Cawl Inferior being a prime example, as is having deals with Eldar and possibly even Necrons). The Custodes have already vetted the project as being approved by the Big E himself (even if it was done retroactively) but we have yet to know how Cawl actually completed that project or managed to add new implants without interfering with old ones. The heresy isn't the end product, it's in how we GOT to the end product.

fact of the matter is it's not heresy if it's ruled ok by god. And given youb have Gulliman and the Custodes saying the Primaris Marines are a gift of the emperor, means they are saying "this is ok by God" this isn't the first time a Primarch has upgraded marines BTW, Corax did something similer during the heresy and the only problem was the Alpha Legion messed it up. In fact, the big thing of Corax's experiment was to incorperate Primarch DNA, specificly the part that aided Primarch growth into a marine... which implies he, presumably, sued the exact same implant Cawl did.

Cawl every likely simply took what Corax did during the Heresy and fixed the problems.

Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

Because Primaris Marines are fixing the problem DoW3 faced: it's playerbase thinks options are cool and relatively stable lore is interesting. They're fixing it by making everything about the tabletop match that game, so that that game will be awesome!

Bharring wrote:
Because Primaris Marines are fixing the problem DoW3 faced: it's playerbase thinks options are cool and relatively stable lore is interesting. They're fixing it by making everything about the tabletop match that game, so that that game will be awesome!

DOW3's problem was they tried to make it into a MOBA and then forgot most if not all MOBA's are F2P

Lemondish wrote:
Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

No. A lot of what is going on here seems like it is fit for discussion on the game lore and background of 40k.

Hopefully as 40k is reaching the end of the Codex cycle we may see GW do more campaign and time line advancements... which would be a great place for a 'second wave' of Primaris Marines.

 stonehorse wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

No. A lot of what is going on here seems like it is fit for discussion on the game lore and background of 40k.

Hopefully as 40k is reaching the end of the Codex cycle we may see GW do more campaign and time line advancements... which would be a great place for a 'second wave' of Primaris Marines.

I just assumed they were intrinsically related in a way that went over my head, lol

Agreed on your second point. Rumours were also pointing to a refreshed Space Marine codex in early 2019. We'll see...

Lemondish wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Am I the only one wondering how this has anything to do with a lack of wargear options?

No. A lot of what is going on here seems like it is fit for discussion on the game lore and background of 40k.

Hopefully as 40k is reaching the end of the Codex cycle we may see GW do more campaign and time line advancements... which would be a great place for a 'second wave' of Primaris Marines.

I just assumed they were intrinsically related in a way that went over my head, lol

Agreed on your second point. Rumours were also pointing to a refreshed Space Marine codex in early 2019. We'll see...

sounds more like wishful thinking IMHO. most of what Space Marines could use would really just be something easily FAQed or chapter approved. unless they're planning on A: re-writing strats. B: releasing a ton of new Primaris in early 2019 and thus plan on a "primaris wave 2 edition" of the SM codex.