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 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's my point, in the future due to IP issues GWs range will likely become more and more standardized. This is hitting SM players the hardest right now due to having the most extensive model range but give it a few years and it's likely every faction will feel the reaper. We seen it start with FW purging entire lines.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's my point, in the future due to IP issues GWs range will likely become more and more standardized. This is hitting SM players the hardest right now due to having the most extensive model range but give it a few years and it's likely every faction will feel the reaper. We seen it start with FW purging entire lines.

that was unrelated.

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's a useless priori.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's a useless priori.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't but the trend is there, clam packs that without doing a decent amount of model work, generally get put together one way and have the ranges of options included. Compare any of the clam packs to the old space marine commander model and tell me they are not pushing simple.

 Desubot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Wondering if we will get a unit that can upgrade, being a factotum master of none. Having an elite or troop unit that can have cc weapons and or speacial/long ranged weaponry or is GW just making them more like eldar, though eldar even have more options than Primaris.

Well i want to say its rowboat following more the scheme of older formations. in 30k it seems that its ether dudes with bolters, dudes with special weapons or dudes with heavy weapons. no standard tactical squads like 40k.

There's fluff blurbs about Guilliman organizing the Primaris into the equivalent of the Legion setups, so you're pretty spot on.

I think GW is also trending towards simplification simply because it's easier for new players, and GW much like video games, movies, television, comics etc. is seeking to cast as wide a net as possible and maximize their customer base. Dumbing things down is how you accomplish that: this way Warhammer takes less effort to start and continue to enjoy and it becomes more appealing to a wider audience, despite losing what made it interesting and enjoyable to its current player base.

"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.

I know, I asked him that because of curiosity, I understand that the shfit to plastic means GW put out waaaay less characters, which does show, I mean the number of characters we've got in plastic is pretty small

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait so would it be better for them to completely replace the model and not have rules for the older models or have one new thing and still keep the old models and rules?

how many years do you think its going to take them to do another time jump to the point all of the older models can no longer be used in game?

they are literally tippy toeing the line instead of sledgehammering so people can still dick around with it for like 5-10 years. if by then they dont see the signs that the line is going then i dunno what to tell them. also side note they did update the marine line with death watch whom have slightly better scaling anyway. id hope they would just redo the older marine lines and there is nothing saying they absolutely wont.

it's worth noting that the core marine units are also pretty new, the MK VII tac squad kit came out with the 6th edition marine codex and is only 5 years old, Assault Marines, devestators came out with the 7th edition codex and are 3 years old, the MK IV armor is about that old too. MK III armor, is only 2 years old at this time. will the old marines be phased out? maybe, but it could be decades before they are, consider how long some of the current kits we have have been around. some are a good 20 years old. not worth worrying about over much in my mind.

And III and IV marks aren't going away due to horus heresy. Hell even VII can be used in HH so...


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

Yeah well that was inevitable side effect due to GW's stupid fixation over plastic for everything rather than right material for right job.

Let's look at it this way.

Some people see Primaris as having few options.

I see it as Primaris have exactly the options they were intended for.

Let's compare Hellblasters to a squad of Chaos Marines. The reason I choose this is because you can take two plasma guns in a squad of Chaos Marines, and when you're choosing special weapons for Chaos Marines, you tend to double up on one weapon to maximize the role that they play in your army.

Hellblasters do that, but chop off all of the 'chaff' models that you have to take as a tax/ablative wounds. Instead of only taking 2 plasma guns, you get to take all of your models with plasma guns! Voila, the decision is made for you.

And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

As someone who started just a few years ago it is not that bad. You can just proxy it is your want and a big part of 40K is making your own dudes with kitbashing and the more liner the wargear gets the less reason their is to do stuff like making a biker with a glaive to be a power lance or make your honor guard.

drbored wrote:
Let's look at it this way.

Some people see Primaris as having few options.

I see it as Primaris have exactly the options they were intended for.

Let's compare Hellblasters to a squad of Chaos Marines. The reason I choose this is because you can take two plasma guns in a squad of Chaos Marines, and when you're choosing special weapons for Chaos Marines, you tend to double up on one weapon to maximize the role that they play in your army.

Hellblasters do that, but chop off all of the 'chaff' models that you have to take as a tax/ablative wounds. Instead of only taking 2 plasma guns, you get to take all of your models with plasma guns! Voila, the decision is made for you.

And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

Lack of chaff/ablative wounds is the problem...why you think ig doepn't use heavy weapon teams except mortar and why deathwatch ability to have hellblasters to basic squad is so groovyy

 Arachnofiend wrote:
"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

I never said that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Compared to what a tactical squad has option wise, primaris are incredibly simple. That's not surprising, GW is trending towards simplified units which makes sense post chapter house.

Not really if you look at the CSM releases, they've cut down a lot of the stuff you can take but I don't think they are going to simplify all armies.

Not all options but they seem to be pushing towards a simpler model line eventually. Look at the primaris marines character models or most factions for that matter, compared to today. When I started in 5th you had 4 or five models for most HQ choices, now one or two at most. It's clear that the game is trending to less options in general.

I'm guessing you played back when metal was a thing yeah?

You do know Primaris have just been released, you have no idea how many characters they'll release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

That's a useless priori.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't but the trend is there, clam packs that without doing a decent amount of model work, generally get put together one way and have the ranges of options included. Compare any of the clam packs to the old space marine commander model and tell me they are not pushing simple.

I never said they weren't pushing the simplicity, I am wondering to what degree (which is why I asked the OP), obviously they are not pushing for Primaris simplicity with other armies, seeing that CSM have not been overly simplified.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said they weren't pushing the simplicity, I am wondering to what degree (which is why I asked the OP), obviously they are not pushing for Primaris simplicity with other armies, seeing that CSM have not been overly simplified.

CSM have not been receiving much of new kits and what they have received has been similar simplifying. Especially in terms of characters. Or how much do new DG characters have options?

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said they weren't pushing the simplicity, I am wondering to what degree (which is why I asked the OP), obviously they are not pushing for Primaris simplicity with other armies, seeing that CSM have not been overly simplified.

CSM have not been receiving much of new kits and what they have received has been similar simplifying. Especially in terms of characters. Or how much do new DG characters have options?

They have been simplified a bit, they can still have a myriad of options, powerfists, combi's, speacial weapons. The two are not analogous. They have recieved tonnes of new kits, the DG and DG terminators all have pretty much the same option's, they actually have more now and these are new kits so they aren't going to reduce their options in the future and say 'you can't use these options now) Characters have never had options, unnamed specific characters don't, but all the other characters have like Chaos lords, sorcerers, Daemon princes

 mew28 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
"The weapons you need for this unit aren't the weapons that come in this unit's box" is kind of a slap in the face to a new player. Continuing to support that paradigm doesn't help anyone other than 3rd party bitz sellers.

As someone who started just a few years ago it is not that bad. You can just proxy it is your want and a big part of 40K is making your own dudes with kitbashing and the more liner the wargear gets the less reason their is to do stuff like making a biker with a glaive to be a power lance or make your honor guard.

It's still that bad. Here's an example.

Deathwatch just released, and by far the best build for Kill Team Vets is Storm Bolters and chainswords.

Neither of those items come in the Kill Team box. They don't exist at all in any part of the Deathwatch line, and for Storm Bolters they don't exist in enough numbers anywhere else without buying $200 of other kits just to equip one squad.

So you turn to third party bits sites, if you're hardcore enough, or recasters and 3d printers. Doesn't help GW, and leaves a bad taste in the player's mouth. Why? Because kitbashing for cool models is neat and should be part of the hobby. It should absolutely not be a forced part of the hobby to make a unit's optimum build.

Ultimately this is a rules writing issue, though, and honestly should be fixed that way. A unit's options should only include what is in the box. Relegate models created for those units that now have invalid builds to characters like captains, lieutenants, or small units like Honour Guard. Characters are the best vector for encouraging kitbashing, and I have absolutely no problem with that. But whole units? That's just madness.

Secondary to that, proxying is not WYSIWYG, and almost every organized gaming event requires that. As such, this is not a valid option.

There will never be an upgradeable primaris unit with tons of options because simply put, Primaris Marines are a (quite intelligent) grab at a huge potential market share for Games Workshop, which is younger brothers/sons of existing hobbyists.

GW is an expensive hobby - you want to guarantee a customer base that has the funds to pursue it. Relatives to existing gamers are a surefire bet there.

OK, what's far and away your most popular faction for young boys? Space Marines, by a huge margin. Big, strong, hero good guys. The biggest problem with Space Marines?

Very complicated army building. I can tell you from experience as I started at 11 with Space Wolves, as a kid you just kit your models out however looks cool, and when you go up against any kind of intelligently made list you get your Heavy Bolter rocket launcher lascannon plasma cannon long fang squad butchered without doing anything.

Primaris Marines fix that issue perfectly while positioning themselves to be the absolute ideal jumping off point for a younger hobbyist. This is not intended as a "hurr durr thems for babies" rip on primaris - they are from a marketing, appearance, and fluff standpoint PERFECTLY crafted to appeal to specifically a young relative.

They're "Marines +1" meaning the younger brother can feel like he's got his own cool thing even if the older brother/father plays space marines. They're new additions, quickly being accepted into all the existing chapters with open arms because even though they're young, they're AWESOME and they allow you to have a Dreadnought, have Terminators, have Space Marines just like Big Brother/Dad, but amped up to 11 and given a little extra style.

Every kit has an Ez-build variant priced to be purchaseable with allowance money. Every unit's got a marine analog that you can set them next to and they're slightly taller/cooler than. Every loadout is fixed and very importantly balanced (ie most things have some use against tanks, some use against infantry) or very simple, usually points-even swaps.

Primaris are one of the best marketing decisions GW has made in decades. If they seem stupid to you, that's probably because you're at least 10 years too old for them to have been aimed at you.

On the original topic I doubt primaris will never be able to take special equipment. in fact I am willing to be they eventually get their own codexes as the vanilla marines already have so many options. I am sure rowboat gorilla-man will write them up some tactical doctrines to follow about formations and special weapons. There are already rumors about primaris bikes and transports coming along with a few other elite primaris squads as well as the rumour of a primaris codex for chapters of all primaris.

as for the old marines in the rest of the thread I do not see GW stopping normal marines, they still exist in pretty large numbers and not all chapters will be open to primaris marines. I could see them splitting and space marines infantry getting cheaper to match their power level (not the 5-6 point assault marines cheaper like in that other thread, more something reasonable like 10-11 points, eldar and vanilla marines need rethinking on infantry points) additionally with the rift in the galaxy it coudl be more common for half the galaxy to see/use primaris while the other half has to make due with the same geneseed they have always used. Additionally as the original geneseed was created by the emperor himself I doubt the imperium from a story perspective would be ok with replacing it all.

drbored wrote:


And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

Just eliminating options is lazy design balance. They should work harder to make all options useful, not just cut things.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think its because it was successful in 30k or anything like that.

99% sure it has everything to do with not stepping on existing marines toes.

there is no way the excects would know if the primarus line would stick. they probably wanted to do it just to update the line as marine models suuuuuuuuuuck.

so they couldn't do a direct 1 to 1 replacement in 40k otherwise backlash would of been far worse.

all the line really needs is dedicated vet squads to ether go full punch town or full shoot town with more interesting weapons and its gg.

I think its more of a combination of factors and I deifnitely think the Horus Heresy aspect plays into it. Primaris Marines scream of bureacratic yesman ideas.

"Okay team, we need new ideas for Uber-Space Marines!"
"Well, they love Horus Heresy and Mk4 armour, lets make them in Mk4!"
"They also love Mk8 armour, so lets make them Mk4 and 8 combined and call it Mk X because its cool!"
"THey also love Custodes so let's make them Custodes sized and then there'll be no more Tru-Scale conversions!"

I also think it has to do with not stepping on Marine toes. If you made Primaris with virtually the same points and power values, and gave them all the same weapons they'd be objectively better in every way. However, I don't doubt that in the next round, Primaris will have "proven themselves the premier Astartes and given access to the same armoury options as their Secundus brothers, as the number of Primaris soon begins to outstrip Secundus."

 Deadshot wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I dont think its because it was successful in 30k or anything like that.

99% sure it has everything to do with not stepping on existing marines toes.

there is no way the excects would know if the primarus line would stick. they probably wanted to do it just to update the line as marine models suuuuuuuuuuck.

so they couldn't do a direct 1 to 1 replacement in 40k otherwise backlash would of been far worse.

all the line really needs is dedicated vet squads to ether go full punch town or full shoot town with more interesting weapons and its gg.

I think its more of a combination of factors and I deifnitely think the Horus Heresy aspect plays into it. Primaris Marines scream of bureacratic yesman ideas.

"Okay team, we need new ideas for Uber-Space Marines!"
"Well, they love Horus Heresy and Mk4 armour, lets make them in Mk4!"
"They also love Mk8 armour, so lets make them Mk4 and 8 combined and call it Mk X because its cool!"
"THey also love Custodes so let's make them Custodes sized and then there'll be no more Tru-Scale conversions!"

I also think it has to do with not stepping on Marine toes. If you made Primaris with virtually the same points and power values, and gave them all the same weapons they'd be objectively better in every way. However, I don't doubt that in the next round, Primaris will have "proven themselves the premier Astartes and given access to the same armoury options as their Secundus brothers, as the number of Primaris soon begins to outstrip Secundus."

I dunno about the yesman thing. i guess it all depends on the sprue dates. it would be hard to tell after they made the kits like a year or two before hand but then i guess its kinda their job to forecast these sort of things.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

drbored wrote:


And let's be real, when it comes to the competitive scene, people will only choose the most efficient of options. Why clutter the army up with options that people aren't going to use?

Just eliminating options is lazy design balance. They should work harder to make all options useful, not just cut things.

Considering they dropped points on Inceptors and Intercessors to make them more likely to see the table it feels like they're trying to improve things over just let them rot.

Going back a bit, I feel like the way Primaris build lists has a few factors: first we know they don't want to copy the old Marines which limits how squads are constructed, but they also want to keep units from just being multiples of the same kit, or easily being built without buying the actual kit. You sell more kits when the contents of that kit are unique to the unit it pertains to versus people just using spare bits out of the box from building a more generalist unit like Space Marines to build the unit.

Furthermore I feel like the Primaris are supposed to make it easier for people to get into the game. With less options in each unit, units that look very unique from each other and a lower model count it's an easy to build, easy to learn army with only a handful of different weapon profiles to use, and no mixing between models in a unit (beyond the grenade launcher which takes an option every model has and just gives it longer range) pushes the army more into a smaller list of stuff to keep track of. Basically they're the introduction to 40k army with an "easy to learn" design that can turn into "hard to master" due to their currently limited options.

Lastly I do feel like the Horus Heresy did inspire the design of the Primaris loadouts a bit as well. Working with that as a starting point in the lore allowed them to take the feel of the Horus Heresy armies and move them to 40k and hopefully we'll see this expanded on as we start seeing wider arrays of options and maybe even some chapter specific units like the Heresy had being reborn as 40k units could be a nice expansion on a type of army that, at least I, had an interest of running in 40k but never really meshed with how 40k itself works.

Come over to Deathwatch. I get a 10 man squad of intercessors and can upgrade 5 of them to the following options:

1) Combat Knife and Revier suit (for the Lols?)
2) Boltstorm Guantlets and T5 gravis armor
2) Flamestorm Gauntlets and T5 Gravis armor
3) 2 d3 Plasma Carbines and T5 Armor
4) 2 d6 Bolters and T5 Armor
5) A straight up Plasma Incinerator upgrade
6) Up to two 30" grenade launchers

I'm not even limited to 1 upgrade per 5 troopers

On a more serious note, I think GW is afraid of the equipment creep that normal marines has. My DW vets have over 20 weapon options because every few years GW kept adding to the list. Primaris have been out for a year and we've already seen that Power Axes are being added to liuetenants and chainswords for seargents (I suspect that isn't going to stay Space Wolf/Deathwatch only options for long). I think they are going to trickle the weapon upgrades out slowly to max out the time before you end up with a bunch of primaris stuff in a 9th or 10th edition index.

I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Would they care? what is the percentage of people that would do that. what is the percentage of people that would out right quit or sell their stuff on ebay and start new shiny primarus stuff. hard questions to answer.

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

You may do that, but as people start new armies they'll be picking up the Primaris and not the old guys.

Plus they can give us stuff that regular Marines don't have to compensate.

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Which is why I honestly do not think that's the plan at all.

Primaris are a beginning - not an end. They're an "in" to the hobby, the more option-rich, complex space marine/imperial factions are intended to be the thing that their new player builds into.

That's why primaris are simplified, present in ezbuild forms and starter kits, and compatible with nearly all chapters. They're not intended to be an add-on that appeals to veteran gamers, so veteran gamers create this conspiracy narrative surrounding their introduction to explain the fact that they don't appeal to them.

 Desubot wrote:

Banville wrote:
I really think they've painted themselves into a corner with Primaris. Let's say they invalidate old marines. Say in 5 year's time. Primaris have their Intercessors and Hellblasters etc. All the old codex entries are no longer valid.

All I'm going to do is shift all my bolter armed guys into 5 or 6 squads. Shift all my plasma guys into another squad. Buy some plasma guns from ebay and swap them with my jump assault guys' pistol and chainsword. Play counts as. Job done without spending a penny in a GW shop. The only thing that might be too hard to kitbash is the Aggressor kit.

Would they care? what is the percentage of people that would do that. what is the percentage of people that would out right quit or sell their stuff on ebay and start new shiny primarus stuff. hard questions to answer.

They invalidated the Old World in WFB and it precipitated a sea change in not just how the company presents itself, but people actually lost their jobs over how ham-fisted the transition was. I'd say if there are 0lans afoot to invalidate anyone's collection that a lot of people at GW HQ care quite a considerable amount.

I'm in general happy with Primaris.

I don't think Troops need to be changed with them.

I think Charecters should get more options, starting with Inceptor armor, Gravis armor, and options like Inceptor suit with Boltguantlet arms..

Or gravis suit with one arm of Boltguantlet, the other of Heavy bolt pistol from the Inceptor suits.

Reemule wrote:
I'm in general happy with Primaris.

I don't think Troops need to be changed with them.

I think Charecters should get more options, starting with Inceptor armor, Gravis armor, and options like Inceptor suit with Boltguantlet arms..

Or gravis suit with one arm of Boltguantlet, the other of Heavy bolt pistol from the Inceptor suits.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think they're great models. I have a Company of them already. But I also have a full Company of Salamanders that I've painted and converted and lavished attention on for almost two decades. I would be very, very annoyed if they were suddenly invalidated. I would convert them rather than box them up and stick them in the attic.

At least I can still use my Bretonnians in Kings of War or 9th Age.