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 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

That's easy. "Well the Repulsor tanks proved their worth easily, during the inital conflicts, it's relitivly slow speed, especially for a speeder, was remarked upon by some chapters.effortds by the white scars to strip down the repulsor's armor and weapons systems for greater speeder and manuverability attracted the attention of ArchMagos Cawl, who used the inspiration to devise the "Jaghati light hover transport"

 Deadshot wrote:
[code]

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
A Primaris Marines codex could work, if GW added a few new Primaris units while also allowing Landraiders to transport Primaris Marines.
Could also allow GW some breathing space to create some new official chapters.

Currently a pure Primaris Marines force can be played, however it is somewhat lacking. Having said that I am not sure what it is missing, or what units need to be added. It seems to have all bases covered.

Solid troop choice. Check.
Heavy firepower unit. Check.
Close combat deep striking unit. Check.
Mobile firepower unit. Check.
Close assault unit. Check.
Good character synergy. Check.

All the parts seem there, but they don't work when taken as a pure force. I haven't tried the dreadnought or tank as the model looks truly awful.

They are only like 3-4 kits away from being a playable as a stand alone force. They need some primaris infantry unit that is good at anti tank. Primaris unit with meltaguns similar to hellblasters would help. Also some sort of infantry unit with long range firepower, something with range greater than 36. Also more transport options (like a primaris razorback equivalent). And last some primaris unit that could go toe to toe with the heavy close combat units in the game. Something with an inv and melee weapons with good ap and more than one damage. Something akin to an assault terminator.

I disagree on the Razorback idea. The idea of the Razorback is a Rhino with less capacity but a bigger gun. Repulsors aren't an equivilent to a Rhino, which is basically a moving metal box with a tiny gun for the sake of having a gun. Repulsors on the other hand have more guns than a stormraven - Turret mounted Heavy Minigun or Lascannon, a twin Heavy Bolter or Lascannon, a Pintle-Mouted Heavy Stubber or Minigun, 2 stormbolters or frag launchers, an AA heavy stubber, missile pod, stormbolter or frag launcher, 2 more optional frag launchers, an optional co-axial heavy stubber, Power of the Machine spirit and -2 to enemy charge ranges. The only way you could "Razorback" a Repulsor would be to drop capacity down to 6 models and give it a pintle mounted Demolisher cannon and sponson mounted Hurricane Bolters.

Well if you dropped the weapons down, reduce the armour etc. you could make the repulser far more razorback than land raider, which is sorely needed. Plus I think his point it to give an equivalent to the razorback, it doesn't have to be repulsive at all.

My question then is why? Space Marines currently use Rhinos as their standard transport because their are much easier to make and repair than Land Raiders. If LRs were as common as Rhinos, everyone would use them. The Razorback is an adaption of the Rhino chassis, halfway between a Predator and a Rhino- some transport, some firepower. The Primaris don't have the same issue as Repulsors are new and can be made new. Why then reduce the number of weapons and armour when the current version already exists? There would be no niche or benefit to it.

Because only having a land raider priced transport is terrible for any army. You need cheap alternatives. Some people only play Primaris, so 'you can use a rhino' is not a good argument. Saying they should have a cheap transport is just biased, 'I don't collect them so they shouldn't get anything.' That's how you sound.

I'm trying to think from a more logical and fluff based perspective than to fill a cheaper transport role in game. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying I can't see a justification in terms of fluff or niche role for it, other than "Repulsors are expensive"

A fluff justification, yeah the rhino is a justification. In battle you need cheap transports not just for a battle but to travel and make contact between different companies, also for scouting missions, you don't want to use an expensive piece of kit, you'd rather have a lighter and faster vehicle. Also for transporting supplies, you aren't going to fill up a repulser with ammo to get the ammo from a to b. A repulser is state of the art, its valuable in what it does, only an idiot general would use it as an all purpose vehicle.

But it is an all-purpose vehicle and it is cheap enough to be mass-produced as shown in the fluff. Its a hover tank so its fast, can be deployed from upper atmosphere, it can do every job you need. Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints.

In terms of transporting supplies I don't see a situation where Space Marines need to transport supplies in large quantities and can't use flyers such as the Stormraven, Thunderhawk, Overlord or Drop Pod to deliver them directly to the point of need.

ALL, vehicles are mass produced. Being mass produced does not mean it has to be cheap. Its not an all purpose vehicle either, Nowhere in the lore suggests its all-purpose.

"Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints." this is pure conjecture, plus all of those things can be made to order. land speeders are rarer because not every forge can make them, yet they are still ubiquitous throughout all chapters.

'In honour of the Khan's traditional cavalry background, this lighter transport was named the MUSTANG. Medium Utility Shock Transport And Neutralisation Gunship.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

Veterans with Autoguns did strike me as a bit strange -

But yeah, probably the dreadful reality of it. It's a massive insult to the old guard of avid modellers and converters, everyone who has ever pondered building their own Dominus from no visual frame of reference, and to all the fantastic White Dwarf articles by Phil Lewis and Jervis Johnson that had me building barns out of ice lolly sticks. The inevitable death of Rough Riders is what hurts the most though. God forbid any humans have sensible mounts, AoS and otherwise. But I guess you can't trademark that. /rant

BrianDavion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

That's easy. "Well the Repulsor tanks proved their worth easily, during the inital conflicts, it's relitivly slow speed, especially for a speeder, was remarked upon by some chapters.effortds by the white scars to strip down the repulsor's armor and weapons systems for greater speeder and manuverability attracted the attention of ArchMagos Cawl, who used the inspiration to devise the "Jaghati light hover transport"

I do stand corrected, fair play that is a decent backstory and one I could get behind.

I do note however this is opposite of Razorbacking. Razorback added guns to the standard transport, this seems to be taking away. Is therefore the Jaghataii Light Hover Transport, the Primaris Rhino? Philosophical questions galore.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

ALL, vehicles are mass produced. Being mass produced does not mean it has to be cheap. Its not an all purpose vehicle either, Nowhere in the lore suggests its all-purpose.

"Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints." this is pure conjecture, plus all of those things can be made to order. land speeders are rarer because not every forge can make them, yet they are still ubiquitous throughout all chapters.

Vehicles in 40k are not mass-produced. Many extracts tell of how each nut and screw must be blessed 3 times on the Emperor's birthday and each plate must be inscribed with litanies of Don't Break Soon before the vehicle is ready. Plus each vehicle must be made according to STC data and trying to innovate is Heresy. The Repulsor is brand new and so free from those limitations as it borders on Heretekal. The fact that Repuslors can be made in mass quantities and distributed widely across the Imperium in such a short space of time indicates that its relatively cheap and easy.

It is an all-purpose vehicle. Fluff doesn't need to explicit state that it is, you can figure that out just looking at it. It has more guns than most MBTs, it has a transport capacity on-par with APCs, it has hover plates that allow it to transverse terrain like a Land Speeder. It can do the jobs of a Rhino, Predator, or Land Speeder and surpasses the first two in that regard. It isn't as durable as a Land Raider but is as big and intimidating and has the Machine Spirit of one.

sphynx wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

Veterans with Autoguns did strike me as a bit strange -

But yeah, probably the dreadful reality of it. It's a massive insult to the old guard of avid modellers and converters, everyone who has ever pondered building their own Dominus from no visual frame of reference, and to all the fantastic White Dwarf articles by Phil Lewis and Jervis Johnson that had me building barns out of ice lolly sticks. The inevitable death of Rough Riders is what hurts the most though. God forbid any humans have sensible mounts, AoS and otherwise. But I guess you can't trademark that. /rant

It really is heartbreaking to see them kill of conversions. Back in the end of 5th Ed I was converting up all the Space Marine characters and all of a sudden told I can't combined them together even though the last codex explicitly let me. A Space Marine kitbash is one thing but I bet there are so many people out there devastated by their loving handcrafted (and officially encouraged) conversions being invalidated and removed because of the ChapterHouse case. GW aren't going to go back on it either, as it encourages more sales of official kits.

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

That's easy. "Well the Repulsor tanks proved their worth easily, during the inital conflicts, it's relitivly slow speed, especially for a speeder, was remarked upon by some chapters.effortds by the white scars to strip down the repulsor's armor and weapons systems for greater speeder and manuverability attracted the attention of ArchMagos Cawl, who used the inspiration to devise the "Jaghati light hover transport"

I do stand corrected, fair play that is a decent backstory and one I could get behind.

I do note however this is opposite of Razorbacking. Razorback added guns to the standard transport, this seems to be taking away. Is therefore the Jaghataii Light Hover Transport, the Primaris Rhino? Philosophical questions galore.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Snip

ALL, vehicles are mass produced. Being mass produced does not mean it has to be cheap. Its not an all purpose vehicle either, Nowhere in the lore suggests its all-purpose.

"Its a Land Raider, a Land Speeder, a Predator, and a Rhino all in one and does its job better than all of them and can be made to order unlike the others which use lost blueprints." this is pure conjecture, plus all of those things can be made to order. land speeders are rarer because not every forge can make them, yet they are still ubiquitous throughout all chapters.

Vehicles in 40k are not mass-produced. Many extracts tell of how each nut and screw must be blessed 3 times on the Emperor's birthday and each plate must be inscribed with litanies of Don't Break Soon before the vehicle is ready. Plus each vehicle must be made according to STC data and trying to innovate is Heresy. The Repulsor is brand new and so free from those limitations as it borders on Heretekal. The fact that Repuslors can be made in mass quantities and distributed widely across the Imperium in such a short space of time indicates that its relatively cheap and easy.

It is an all-purpose vehicle. Fluff doesn't need to explicit state that it is, you can figure that out just looking at it. It has more guns than most MBTs, it has a transport capacity on-par with APCs, it has hover plates that allow it to transverse terrain like a Land Speeder. It can do the jobs of a Rhino, Predator, or Land Speeder and surpasses the first two in that regard. It isn't as durable as a Land Raider but is as big and intimidating and has the Machine Spirit of one.

sphynx wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No model, No rules. It's that simple.

Veterans with Autoguns did strike me as a bit strange -

But yeah, probably the dreadful reality of it. It's a massive insult to the old guard of avid modellers and converters, everyone who has ever pondered building their own Dominus from no visual frame of reference, and to all the fantastic White Dwarf articles by Phil Lewis and Jervis Johnson that had me building barns out of ice lolly sticks. The inevitable death of Rough Riders is what hurts the most though. God forbid any humans have sensible mounts, AoS and otherwise. But I guess you can't trademark that. /rant

It really is heartbreaking to see them kill of conversions. Back in the end of 5th Ed I was converting up all the Space Marine characters and all of a sudden told I can't combined them together even though the last codex explicitly let me. A Space Marine kitbash is one thing but I bet there are so many people out there devastated by their loving handcrafted (and officially encouraged) conversions being invalidated and removed because of the ChapterHouse case. GW aren't going to go back on it either, as it encourages more sales of official kits.

"Vehicles in 40k are not mass-produced. Many extracts tell of how each nut and screw must be blessed 3 times on the Emperor's birthday and each plate must be inscribed with litanies of Don't Break Soon before the vehicle is ready. Plus each vehicle must be made according to STC data and trying to innovate is Heresy. The Repulsor is brand new and so free from those limitations as it borders on Heretekal. The fact that Repuslors can be made in mass quantities and distributed widely across the Imperium in such a short space of time indicates that its relatively cheap and easy."

Who cares if they are blessed 3 times, they are still mass-produced, the repulsor is still blessed three times for every screw as well. The repulsor is not completely brand new it is based on STC technology.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

You know. Unless that's not what they're trying to do at all, and they want the new players drawn in by Primaris to expand their armies into the more customizable aspects of the chapter codexes.

Oh no, are they going to stop making Muppets IP now that Sesame Street exists?

Oh no, are they going to slowly phase out Legos with this new Duplo stuff?

what could these marketing teams poooooooossibly be doing here?

If you're going to mock me at least be funny.

What I was trying to get with the razorback comment was I think primaris need a cheaper transport option. A smaller lighter APC, or perhaps something that is much faster akin to a land speeder storm, drop pods, etc. Currently the replusor feels much more like a land raider than a standard APC, and since primaris can't go in normal marine transports for some reason this is one area they are really lacking in options.

Also I do agree that the their HQs desperately need more options. I have opted for normal marine HQs in my mixed space marine force because they have much more options.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All GW has to do is release a primaris only codex that is better than the current marine books and the market will do the rest.

You know. Unless that's not what they're trying to do at all, and they want the new players drawn in by Primaris to expand their armies into the more customizable aspects of the chapter codexes.

Oh no, are they going to stop making Muppets IP now that Sesame Street exists?

Oh no, are they going to slowly phase out Legos with this new Duplo stuff?

what could these marketing teams poooooooossibly be doing here?

If you're going to mock me at least be funny.

Just amusing to me that dedicated fans of nearly any given franchise never seem to have any ability to comprehend when something might just be aimed at a different market share that is not them, and so often find it more plausible that there is a conspiracy within the franchise to either A) drive off their business or B ) destroy the franchise entirely.

But then they turn around and in fields other than entertainment, products from the same company that aim for different marketshares are seen as a completely normal thing.

If the company that produces your MANRAZORS with SEPTUPLE BLADES for only the toughest, manliest stubble turns around and introduces a new line of pink venus smoothglide delicate touch razors - specially engineered for a woman's body...you don't jump to the conclusion that your razors are going to be phased out. It's just completely normal marketing.

It becomes even more obvious when the same company is clearly looking to groom new consumers into their brand. The same company that produces ultra-gritty violent live-action batman movies and comics also produces happy sanitized Batman and Friends cartoons.

So when games workshop creates new marines with a simplified loadout, designs that very clearly ape off of popular looks and trends among modern young kids (look at Call of Duty promo art. Now look at a Reiver. now look back at Call of Duty.) and give them ez-build kits, put them in all the starter packs, and give them saturday morning cartoon fluff, how does this indicate a conspiracy to alienate their largest and most dedicated fanbase?

It becomes even more obvious when the same company is clearly looking to groom new consumers into their brand. The same company that produces ultra-gritty violent live-action batman movies and comics also produces happy sanitized Batman and Friends cartoons.

Wouldn't use comics as an example how someone can be safe about his man cave only hobby. DC is doing a bit better then marvel, but still not strong argument.

But from the looks of things, I think that GW wanted to reset the line, but was afraid of a AoS style backlash. And while with AoS they could only gain, losing W40k players and buyers would be a much different thing. Plus there seems to be the whole no new rules without a model thing. So the primaris end up like they do now.

They fluff though, is real bad though, it is one thing to not make sense in our world, but it is a whole different thing to make no sense within the setting own rules of how the world works. I would be too hard on GW writers though, well the fluff ones at least, it is not like they are some genius tier super writers, that are lazy when doing w40k stuff. The stuff we get seems, the thing they find cool ,and that can be subjective, and they genuinely seem to be doing the best they can do. So expecting them to write the new War&Peace is a tad unrealistic.

Karol wrote:

It becomes even more obvious when the same company is clearly looking to groom new consumers into their brand. The same company that produces ultra-gritty violent live-action batman movies and comics also produces happy sanitized Batman and Friends cartoons.

Wouldn't use comics as an example how someone can be safe about his man cave only hobby. DC is doing a bit better then marvel, but still not strong argument.

But from the looks of things, I think that GW wanted to reset the line, but was afraid of a AoS style backlash. And while with AoS they could only gain, losing W40k players and buyers would be a much different thing. Plus there seems to be the whole no new rules without a model thing. So the primaris end up like they do now.

They fluff though, is real bad though, it is one thing to not make sense in our world, but it is a whole different thing to make no sense within the setting own rules of how the world works. I would be too hard on GW writers though, well the fluff ones at least, it is not like they are some genius tier super writers, that are lazy when doing w40k stuff. The stuff we get seems, the thing they find cool ,and that can be subjective, and they genuinely seem to be doing the best they can do. So expecting them to write the new War&Peace is a tad unrealistic.

Yeah it's almost like products aimed at a younger audience tend to not care about internal consistency nearly as much because kids tend to notice those things less.

Is there a word for when a segment of a fanbase or population becomes so convinced of their own central focus to the thing they're involved in that everything that happens must involve them and when it doesn't, it must involve them secretly/behind the scenes?

It's like when you take some guy just making random, vague statements hundreds of years ago and you have people saying "this must be a prediction pertaining to the current year!" "oh, here's when he predicted our current president!" "oh man this HAS to be a prediction about the invention of the current Iphone design!"

One thing fluff wise I think they really missed was having the a prominent chapter tell Bobby G to stuff it. I knew GW wouldn't do it but it would have been cool to have had the Space Wolves stay in character and reject an Ultramarine telling them to do something.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One thing fluff wise I think they really missed was having the a prominent chapter tell Bobby G to stuff it. I knew GW wouldn't do it but it would have been cool to have had the Space Wolves stay in character and reject an Ultramarine telling them to do something.

Dark Millennium hints at it (by mentioning something along the lines of "among the chapters who have adopted the technology"), and unless something changed, didn't the Flesh Tearers reject the idea of taking in Primaris? You know, since Seth's thing is to have his chapter die heroes before they devolve into villians?

It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

Big difference was that it was Russ telling Guilliman no, they weren't half crippled by having Magnus screwing with their planet and the new kids still have Space Wolves geneseed in them, only it's the purest geneseed they could get their hands outside of Terra, giving them the hope that the whole chapter could avoid turning into Wulfen.

Basically while telling Guilliman to stuff it over a new organization did indeed happen, turning down people who share your own blood wouldn't have made as much sense for them.

Chapters I could see turning down Primaris would be ones like the Flesh Tearers (who are basically on a death crusade), Carachadons (who tend to be rather isolationist to a rather unnerving extent) and chapters that may or may not be dead (Lamenters) though that wouldn't stop Guilliman from recreating the lost chapter as Primaris (Primaris Rainbow Warriors perhaps?). Which could be fun for how the chapter shows up to find out that everyone thought they were dead and they were literally replaced.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

The Space Wolves ultimately would have said yes through from a logical stand point considering after the fiasco at Fenris they were borderline extinct. Hard to recoup your losses when most of your recruiting world's population is dead. Sure, like the Codex said, there were wary Wolf Lords concerned its a ploy by Guilliman to finally enforce the Codex (which I mean honestly if he cared that much he would have done it back then). But ultimately its fresh bodies for a group that badly needed them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's hinted that a few chapters said no, but that's all. I really would have loved a chapter that actually has it's own book saying no thanks. The Space Wolves told Bobby G to kiss their ass 10k ago the first time he tried to push reforms on them. Them doing it again and getting some newer actual space wolf kits would have one, been consistent with the background and two gone a long way to showing existing marine players are models arn't getting squatted in a few years.

Big difference was that it was Russ telling Guilliman no, they weren't half crippled by having Magnus screwing with their planet and the new kids still have Space Wolves geneseed in them, only it's the purest geneseed they could get their hands outside of Terra, giving them the hope that the whole chapter could avoid turning into Wulfen.

Basically while telling Guilliman to stuff it over a new organization did indeed happen, turning down people who share your own blood wouldn't have made as much sense for them.

Chapters I could see turning down Primaris would be ones like the Flesh Tearers (who are basically on a death crusade), Carachadons (who tend to be rather isolationist to a rather unnerving extent) and chapters that may or may not be dead (Lamenters) though that wouldn't stop Guilliman from recreating the lost chapter as Primaris (Primaris Rainbow Warriors perhaps?). Which could be fun for how the chapter shows up to find out that everyone thought they were dead and they were literally replaced.

Carcharodons were confirmed to have acquired the Primaris technology through other means. Kinda like that angle of them.

I imagine all CANON chapters will have primaris Marines. the "some refused it" is more GW giving people who don't want Primaris in their homebrew chapter a way to do it.

All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

Would of been a cool way to add more sub chapters and flesh out more lore.

its still possible to add through black library but eh.

All of the above. It's one of the reason I don't like that there has been a time skip with only snip its released. The Imperium is loathed to the concepts of change, new tech, innovation. Then Suddenly Marty Sue Cawl is pulling all kinds of new / lost tech out of every where.

Once again, just because you don't like Cawl that doesn't mean he's a Mary Sue. Learn your terms.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
All of the above. It's one of the reason I don't like that there has been a time skip with only snip its released. The Imperium is loathed to the concepts of change, new tech, innovation. Then Suddenly Marty Sue Cawl is pulling all kinds of new / lost tech out of every where.

It could of been such a big opportunity to add a hand full of new characters to sell too.

imagine a captain america style little civil war with an opportunity to focus a little on the iron hands whom have no character model. especially considering their whole metal fetish, they probably would be the last group to want primarus super meat bags.

the_scotsman 762917 1013094 wrote:

Yeah it's almost like products aimed at a younger audience tend to not care about internal consistency nearly as much because kids tend to notice those things less.

Is there a word for when a segment of a fanbase or population becomes so convinced of their own central focus to the thing they're involved in that everything that happens must involve them and when it doesn't, it must involve them secretly/behind the scenes?

It's like when you take some guy just making random, vague statements hundreds of years ago and you have people saying "this must be a prediction pertaining to the current year!" "oh, here's when he predicted our current president!" "oh man this HAS to be a prediction about the invention of the current Iphone design!"

I think it is the cost armies have, both money and time, and as we know time is money. When you spend 700-800$ you feel like GW ows you something, specialy if the list doesn't work that well. People seem to not take it well that GW doesn't care about people that already bought stuff, they care about people that are willing to buy more stuff and that is it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Once again, just because you don't like Cawl that doesn't mean he's a Mary Sue. Learn your terms.

he is a tech heretic from the point of view of anyone who knows how law works in the w40k world. The modification of sacred gene seed, something the Emperor made himself is hereticus diabolis. Remember we are talking about a setting, where no one uses Land Raiders ,in fluff, because durning the heresy big E made an edict they are for space marine use only.

 Desubot wrote:
All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

He did effectively re-conquer ultimar from corrupt administrations, mean while, they're space marines, they're quite literally programmed to defer to a primarch and modern space marines don't have the conditioning of being previously exposed to one. And many of them were fresh from stompings, in desperate need and then promptly handed a bigger gun. It does amount to little more than a footnote, but what else is going to happen when someone's appointed imperial regent, has a legit claim, and somewhere north of 60% of marines effectively on his side.

And let's be entirely honest, 40k has been adding a LOT of new stuff into the game for a decade now. Not just models, but, this never existed until now but hey totally they found an STC or something. Which is roughly how Cawl plays off his blatant tech heresy to Gulliman. The RPGs in particular added a whole lot of random innovation that didn't really mesh with the idea of utter stagnancy. But that's just a natural result of freezing a time line while focusing on the end of it for some reason when they had 10k years to explore.

I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

 Desubot wrote:
I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

it's proably a footnote because 99% of the post Gathering storm is at best a footnote, for feth's sake show some patience and let things get fleshed out a bit first. as for a "massive civil war over it" quite frankly that would have been kinda boring TBH, as it's been done to death. A lotta people need to understand who Gulliman is within the setting, we're entirely too jaded and too many people made hating on Gulliman an "in thing" after the Space Marine WardDex.

Gulliman isn't JUST a Primarch, although that in and of itself is pretty damn big remember these guys are considered sons of the emperor, and are Imperial Saints, Gulliman is a RELIGIOUS figure. In addition, he's the primarch of the buk of the space marines in existance. something like 65% of space marine chapters have proably been brought up holding him in special reverance, in addition to his whole primarch thing, he's ALSO politically "kind of a big deal" this is the man who effectivly ran the Imperium following the Heresy, from a governmental POV he's also seen as pretty major. There are an aweful lot of things that "can';t be changed because they where set by the sainted Gulliman" that obviously does not apply to the sainted Gulliman.
Beyond just who Gulliman is personally, he also has the Custodes behind him 100% and met with the Emperor (something that is disgustingly rare in 40k) which means Gulliman has, in the eys of most people, a quite literally, divine mandate.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

it's proably a footnote because 99% of the post Gathering storm is at best a footnote, for feth's sake show some patience and let things get fleshed out a bit first. as for a "massive civil war over it" quite frankly that would have been kinda boring TBH, as it's been done to death. A lotta people need to understand who Gulliman is within the setting, we're entirely too jaded and too many people made hating on Gulliman an "in thing" after the Space Marine WardDex.

Gulliman isn't JUST a Primarch, although that in and of itself is pretty damn big remember these guys are considered sons of the emperor, and are Imperial Saints, Gulliman is a RELIGIOUS figure. In addition, he's the primarch of the buk of the space marines in existance. something like 65% of space marine chapters have proably been brought up holding him in special reverance, in addition to his whole primarch thing, he's ALSO politically "kind of a big deal" this is the man who effectivly ran the Imperium following the Heresy, from a governmental POV he's also seen as pretty major. There are an aweful lot of things that "can';t be changed because they where set by the sainted Gulliman" that obviously does not apply to the sainted Gulliman.
Beyond just who Gulliman is personally, he also has the Custodes behind him 100% and met with the Emperor (something that is disgustingly rare in 40k) which means Gulliman has, in the eys of most people, a quite literally, divine mandate.

Yeah people seem to forget how illogical the setting is, to be honest. If a demi-god comes about and tells you to obey him, you most likely do that.

 Desubot wrote:
All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

Would of been a cool way to add more sub chapters and flesh out more lore.

its still possible to add through black library but eh.

GW tells a lot of stories in arcs and seeing as this is basically them getting all the pieces into place, we can still have a mini civil war, but if/when it happens it's going to involve a Primarch who disagrees with Guilliman's efforts and pulls the Imperium in a different direction.


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Karol wrote:
he is a tech heretic from the point of view of anyone who knows how law works in the w40k world. The modification of sacred gene seed, something the Emperor made himself is hereticus diabolis. Remember we are talking about a setting, where no one uses Land Raiders ,in fluff, because durning the heresy big E made an edict they are for space marine use only.

First off the Mechanicus has tampered with the geneseed several times, so no, it's not that sacred. Cawl didn't even tamper with it directly as he only used the more pure stuff out of the vaults and added some implants to the process, not changing the core geneseed like what was done with a chapter like the Lamenters. Or the Black Dragons. Or the Fire Falcons.

Also Hereticus Diabolis involves daemons.

And I don't recall any lore that said that the geneseed was to never be improved or the like.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
I guess that might be it though

something this important shouldn't of been a foot note in the main book.

and while programmed for full loyalty i figure there should of been quite a lot more questioning of some one who was supposedly death or about to die coming out of no where with a fist full of space candy.

it's proably a footnote because 99% of the post Gathering storm is at best a footnote, for feth's sake show some patience and let things get fleshed out a bit first. as for a "massive civil war over it" quite frankly that would have been kinda boring TBH, as it's been done to death. A lotta people need to understand who Gulliman is within the setting, we're entirely too jaded and too many people made hating on Gulliman an "in thing" after the Space Marine WardDex.

Gulliman isn't JUST a Primarch, although that in and of itself is pretty damn big remember these guys are considered sons of the emperor, and are Imperial Saints, Gulliman is a RELIGIOUS figure. In addition, he's the primarch of the buk of the space marines in existance. something like 65% of space marine chapters have proably been brought up holding him in special reverance, in addition to his whole primarch thing, he's ALSO politically "kind of a big deal" this is the man who effectivly ran the Imperium following the Heresy, from a governmental POV he's also seen as pretty major. There are an aweful lot of things that "can';t be changed because they where set by the sainted Gulliman" that obviously does not apply to the sainted Gulliman.
Beyond just who Gulliman is personally, he also has the Custodes behind him 100% and met with the Emperor (something that is disgustingly rare in 40k) which means Gulliman has, in the eys of most people, a quite literally, divine mandate.

Just to add - divine mandate is the best description. Guilliman to the people of 40k is as if Jesus Christ himself came to Earth, could prove it was him, was official endorsed by the Pope and all the vatican and all leaders of the various other Christian sects, and then started a massive Crusade to remove terrorism, paedophiles and other religions. He comes with him bearing new and improved Bible, and a bunch of kick ass warriors and weapons to help fight off all the other religions and beliefs. He brings with him a host of God's ass-kicking-est Angel Warriors. He also has a big "something" that literally belongs to god and you can feel the presence of God from the "something,"

Name me 1 christian who wouldn't follow Jesus' every command without hesitate


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
All they had to do fluff wise was have a mini civil war. tons of back lash and feet dragging until finally after a ton of work girlyman pulls through and convinces most of the marine chapters that its worth it.

there was not enough resistance to make it convincing.

Would of been a cool way to add more sub chapters and flesh out more lore.

its still possible to add through black library but eh.

GW tells a lot of stories in arcs and seeing as this is basically them getting all the pieces into place, we can still have a mini civil war, but if/when it happens it's going to involve a Primarch who disagrees with Guilliman's efforts and pulls the Imperium in a different direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
he is a tech heretic from the point of view of anyone who knows how law works in the w40k world. The modification of sacred gene seed, something the Emperor made himself is hereticus diabolis. Remember we are talking about a setting, where no one uses Land Raiders ,in fluff, because durning the heresy big E made an edict they are for space marine use only.

First off the Mechanicus has tampered with the geneseed several times, so no, it's not that sacred. Cawl didn't even tamper with it directly as he only used the more pure stuff out of the vaults and added some implants to the process, not changing the core geneseed like what was done with a chapter like the Lamenters. Or the Black Dragons. Or the Fire Falcons.

Also Hereticus Diabolis involves daemons.

And I don't recall any lore that said that the geneseed was to never be improved or the like.

Except for the fact that the Emperor is a God. Trying to, or thinking to, or even contemplating the idea that geneseed could be improved is to suggest that the Emperor did a less-than-perfect job of it.

Don't forget, one of the implants Cawl uses is a half of an implant that the Primarchs have and the other half is completely unrecorded. This suggests the Emperor purged those records himself (Similar to the II and XI Legions). Furthermore, it means the Emperor COULD have given it to his Space Marines but didn't, for a reason. What Cawl is basically doing there is questioning the Emperor's decision and then going against it.

the main reason Primaris don't come with loads of options is GW don't want pure Primaris forces they want you to still buy traditional Space Marine forces with Primaris as extra.


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For example Primaris lack very long range firepower so you have to bring in Preds or Devs or Dakka Dreads.

And since they can only take a Repulsor as a transport or a Land Raider Tacs have them beaten for manouverability.