I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
DW Primaris are strong, for a start. You can make a good army heavily based on Primaris.
Personally, I've dealt with the situation by going full Primaris (playing Dark Angels). I love the look of the new scale marines, and I just can't go back now!
I've converted Primaris scale models for some units. I have a Primaris scale Azrael, 3 Company Champions, and a Tech Marine.
They look better to me, but not because they are taller, but because they are more in proportion with themselves. GW talked themselves into a hole, they couldn't make new models in proportion but smaller than the old ones (well narrower mostly) so they went larger.
They do look decent, they are ok in a mixed army as GW have (sensibly) kept them in their own squads and made those squads slightly different.
long term, they quite obviously want full Primaris armies, hell they sell models why wouldn't they want that?
given the chaos models have not (yet) had this treatment, and with all the new Death Guard stuff I doubt they will soon the older vehicles will stay in production for a while, and since they have the tooling I'd expect the older marine models to only be phased out as the tooling finally dies.
"your milage may vary" really, if you like them go for them, if you don't don't, they don't (to me) look good right next to each other.
I also think the fluff is a bit silly, but when the alternative is "well they were there all along, you just didn't see them" or "the marine inside is the same side as before, just the armour is bigger"
If you cannae stand the scale comparison (and I sure as potatoes can't) then the only way open to you is conversion.
The good news is, you can chop a primaris just above the belt & buckle and plonk a standard marine torso on top of the legs. This gives you nice n' easy truscale marines to play alongside your primaris.
I deal with it by not playing Primaris Marines (although I have painted some Intercessors and Rievers). Having said that I do keep getting tempted by Aggressors. The height difference is accurate to the fluff but as with everything on here, the choice is down to personal preference.
I agree, the models looks much better. If I compare them to my "normal" marines, I am near to cry. But them you play with them, small squad wirh long range grenades. They do well, but for the points they cost I feel they are not complete.
But I generally like them. I enjoy a lot painting them, really a lot. ATM I only have 10 intercessor, 5 hellblasters and 3 Inceptors.
Now I have primed and ready to paint 5 reivers and 3 agressor. The reivers I am sure I will use them, the agressors not sure.
I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
I'll quit 40k before giving GW one penny for any Primaris models. With how many interesting ways they could have taken the story and how many other model lines need love, releasing marines BUT BETTER IN EVERY WAY leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Sort of helped here is had to be said that my "normal" marines were all painted some time back, with the older GW paint range, and I've not found a decent match for the colours (forgotten which ones anyway), so adapted it slightly for the newer models which will likely be a mostly Primaris army (currently working on some Terminators and there is a box of scouts and bikes around here somewhere)
so the decision not to run these alongside my older marines was semi forced:
- they will be a slightly different colour, and my painting has moved on in the 8-9 years since they were painted
- they are in a box "somewhere" and I can't find them
- there were never very many of them anyway
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
So would it be fair to say the fluff is the main reason you're against them?
Can you not just use the models (if you do like them, the ones you like), and forge your own narrative?
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
So would it be fair to say the fluff is the main reason you're against them?
Can you not just use the models (if you do like them, the ones you like), and forge your own narrative?
No, I assume that he's like me. The only way I can punish GW for making what I consider is a bad decision is to vote with my wallet and not buy any of the new marines.
Honestly, primaris made me fall in love with 40k modelling again. These are the marines I wished I'd have fifteen years ago. I love the models, I can head-canon the lore. There's no way I could ever bring myself to buy or play a non-primaris marine army.
So yeah, I picked up the dark imperium set and am building a small death guard army, and 2 marine armies - dark angels and raptors.
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
So would it be fair to say the fluff is the main reason you're against them?
Can you not just use the models (if you do like them, the ones you like), and forge your own narrative?
No, I assume that he's like me. The only way I can punish GW for making what I consider is a bad decision is to vote with my wallet and not buy any of the new marines.
Punish! Wow, harsh.
I mean, fair enough. Just seems a bit over the top a reaction to me personally.
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
So would it be fair to say the fluff is the main reason you're against them?
Can you not just use the models (if you do like them, the ones you like), and forge your own narrative?
No, I assume that he's like me. The only way I can punish GW for making what I consider is a bad decision is to vote with my wallet and not buy any of the new marines.
Punish! Wow, harsh.
I mean, fair enough. Just seems a bit over the top a reaction to me personally.
It's not harsh at all. Gw still gets income if he buys other kits.
grouchoben wrote: If you cannae stand the scale comparison (and I sure as potatoes can't) then the only way open to you is conversion.
The good news is, you can chop a primaris just above the belt & buckle and plonk a standard marine torso on top of the legs. This gives you nice n' easy truscale marines to play alongside your primaris.
Assuming your converted marines are head shorter that is.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont use primaris, but if i did i dont think the height diffenrence would bother me. I mostly think of them as marine ogryns anyways.
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
So would it be fair to say the fluff is the main reason you're against them?
Can you not just use the models (if you do like them, the ones you like), and forge your own narrative?
No, I assume that he's like me. The only way I can punish GW for making what I consider is a bad decision is to vote with my wallet and not buy any of the new marines.
Punish! Wow, harsh.
I mean, fair enough. Just seems a bit over the top a reaction to me personally.
It's not harsh at all. Gw still gets income if he buys other kits.
Oh sure, it just seems like disproportionate language to what has actually happened.
Just go full Primaris. The range is a bit limited right now, but they will be expanded in the future. If your minimarines are just two squads at this point, it is not a huge loss. I shelved a full, extensively converted marine army and switched to Primaris.
I’m playing the Celestial Lions, a perfect chapter for the Primarus marines fluff wise. Although I’m not 100% certain of the fluff of the primes themselves, the models are outstanding.
I just hate the look of the primaris. I am not at all a fan of the gravis suits. The fluff I dont like, but thats not a really big deal, especially after the necrons becoming emo space epyptian terminators.
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
not even sure what this stream of conciousness style post is trying to say beyond "I dislike Primaris Marines"
I hate the lore for Primaris, but I enjoy the looks of the models.
I'm guessing if one really wanted to, it wouldn't be hard to find 3rd party options that would turn a Primaris squad into a Tactical/Devastator/Whatever model.
I just wish they'd given Gravis stats as if they were Terminators.
I don't hating Aggressors outside those silly trinkets hanging from their junk. Get rid of that and the Aquila (for me anyway) and the models aren't that bad.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I'll quit 40k before giving GW one penny for any Primaris models. With how many interesting ways they could have taken the story and how many other model lines need love, releasing marines BUT BETTER IN EVERY WAY leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I second that. My SM army is complete and I won´t add stuff that won´t fit the aesthetic of my other models. My local GW gifted me with a free Primaris Tactical dude (Intercessor?) which was fun to paint and now is spending his time in my glass cabinet. But I won´t replace my beloved SM or even CSM army with the obnoxious ´truescale´ stuff. ´Truescale´ is just a scam to get people to collect SM all over again. Nice trap GW but I am too wise to fall for this one. Just think about the proportions of the humble Rhino. Would ten SM fit in? Hell no and I have never encountered a player in twenty years of wargaming that threw a fit about this. So stay healthy and just say no to ´truescale´.
Gitdakka wrote: I dont use primaris, but if i did i dont think the height diffenrence would bother me. I mostly think of them as marine ogryns anyways.
jeff white wrote: I will never own one.
Ever.
That is how I deal with it.
Primaris?
But, they came second, or third, or maybe it was fourth?
Sure they look good,
except for the reivers (spelling?),
and the aggressors (slopey shouldered centurion wannabes?),
and the repulsor (repulsive in every way, not to mention a 180 on the established narrative, that the empire is fading i.e. as a parody of the current and ongoing situation in the West, but I digress into how 40k was always a window on our own world, at least before it became about profits 'primarily', hence the name 'primaris' I imagine, because now they have out-skimmed the eldar somehow),
but the way that they were introduced is total garbage,
especially the whole super-friends focal point as if the galaxy is made up of three big dudes and a bunch of supporting characters such that every army has a Cawl, or a Girlyman, or both, while the other has a Mortarian, or a ... you know what I mean.
So would it be fair to say the fluff is the main reason you're against them?
Can you not just use the models (if you do like them, the ones you like), and forge your own narrative?
No, I assume that he's like me. The only way I can punish GW for making what I consider is a bad decision is to vote with my wallet and not buy any of the new marines.
Punish! Wow, harsh.
I mean, fair enough. Just seems a bit over the top a reaction to me personally.
It's not harsh at all. Gw still gets income if he buys other kits.
Oh sure, it just seems like disproportionate language to what has actually happened.
Calm down. It is just exaggeration to drive home a point.
Strg Alt wrote: Just think about the proportions of the humble Rhino. Would ten SM fit in? Hell no and I have never encountered a player in twenty years of wargaming that threw a fit about this. So stay healthy and just say no to ´truescale´.
Ten marines wouldn't fit in the ORIGINAL rhino. I'm not even sure 10 marines will fit in the current Rhino.
That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
This is clearly false given evidence of standing structures and large stones carved and placed on a scale and with a precision unmet by current and even anticipated technologies... It is relatively easier to destroy things than to build things and given that much of today's tech derives from wartime ingenuity it is most likely given evidence cited above that we are well behind civilizations perhaps 20millennia old or more. In this grim darkness of today also there is mostly war. Mostly.
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
Europe went backwards technologically during the dark ages, China stagnated, entire human civilizations collapsed at various points of time losing their technologies, we still don't know how the Romans made cement...
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
Europe went backwards technologically during the dark ages, China stagnated, entire human civilizations collapsed at various points of time losing their technologies, we still don't know how the Romans made cement...
That's actually been debunked for the most part. A few details were lost, like Roman cement, but technology was passed down orally, as the written word was restricted. Viking ships were far more advanced than Roman vessels, for example, yet there are few writings of how to build them. Once the flash storage drive was invented, the prospect of losing knowledge or tech is almost unfathomable. 40K is still pushing a popular genre from the 80s, but it's gotten suspension of disbelief breaking.
I won't be buying any more marine models until their army is competitively viable and somehow integrates both old and new Marines.
I'd probably buy 1-2 units worth of primaris if I thought they'd help me win games, but right now that isn't going to happen. And if they make primaris Marines good but leave old Marines terrible, I might as well just start another army because all the old marine stuff I have is bad, so i would be starting over with primaris anyway.
I'd rather buy other units that are actually decent on the table top, and look cool without making half my collection look wonky next to them.
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
Europe went backwards technologically during the dark ages, China stagnated, entire human civilizations collapsed at various points of time losing their technologies, we still don't know how the Romans made cement...
The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
Europe went backwards technologically during the dark ages, China stagnated, entire human civilizations collapsed at various points of time losing their technologies, we still don't know how the Romans made cement...
That's actually been debunked for the most part. A few details were lost, like Roman cement, but technology was passed down orally, as the written word was restricted. Viking ships were far more advanced than Roman vessels, for example, yet there are few writings of how to build them. Once the flash storage drive was invented, the prospect of losing knowledge or tech is almost unfathomable. 40K is still pushing a popular genre from the 80s, but it's gotten suspension of disbelief breaking.
It doesn't really matter if you have it on a flash drive if the planet said flash drive is on gets swallowed by the warp or otherwise lost though. The imperium doesn't have galaxy wide internet access either so if the data wasn't physically duplicated and transported to another planet it's gone. Sure things are stored in tech but in the case of 40k that's much more like storing things in a book than having some server with multiple backups spread across the galaxy.
Martel732 wrote: That's because it was written before the cloud existed. It's bad futurism at this point.
It doesn't really matter if it was written before the cloud existed. Even today we have places without access to electricity or the internet. Also if someone had a drive with $10,000,000 of bit coin and it was dropped to the bottom of the marianas trench, it doesn't matter if the drive survives and still technically has the data on it, it's lost. Even if we were magically able to preserve and find any data on earth, this is a fantasy setting. It doesn't matter if there are flying tanks and guns that shoot pure energy. There is magic, demons, dragons, etc. The imperium even practially pops into hell to to take shortcuts between planets. It's a little silly saying they wouldn't have lost technology because they should have wifi.
Martel732 wrote: That's because it was written before the cloud existed. It's bad futurism at this point.
It doesn't really matter if it was written before the cloud existed. Even today we have places without access to electricity or the internet. Also if someone had a drive with $10,000,000 of bit coin and it was dropped to the bottom of the marianas trench, it doesn't matter if the drive survives and still technically has the data on it, it's lost. Even if we were magically able to preserve and find any data on earth, this is a fantasy setting. It doesn't matter if there are flying tanks and guns that shoot pure energy. There is magic, demons, dragons, etc. The imperium even practially pops into hell to to take shortcuts between planets. It's a little silly saying they wouldn't have lost technology because they should have wifi.
I have a friend whose job it is to research ways in which to keep digital file formats from going "extinct" - i.e. make sure we know how to read those files in the future. Some of which have already done so.
So that's documents created in the last 30 or so years, some of which that we don't currently know how to access.
I can easily see how in the Imperium, which spans countless worlds over thousands of years, some technology will be lost.
Martel732 wrote: Some technology, I agree. But not as written. It's just nuts.
I believe recorded human history is roughly 5,000 years. As mentioned already we've even essentially lost tech as recent as 30 or so years old. The dark age of technology ended in the 25th millennium. I'd say it's more than reasonable that they managed to lose so much in roughly triple the time-span of recorded human history. Especially when you factor in things like the heresy where half of the imperium's forces turned on itself plunging it into chaos, causing the destruction or loss of forgeworlds, etc.
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
Europe went backwards technologically during the dark ages, China stagnated, entire human civilizations collapsed at various points of time losing their technologies, we still don't know how the Romans made cement...
The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Do you get that there was about 900 years between the end of the Roman Empire and the Prining Press?
Martel732 wrote: Some technology, I agree. But not as written. It's just nuts.
maybe the DRM server went off line?
keep in mind if some organisations had their way you access information by paying them or not at all, once they go dark, or find the information no longer valuable enough and its in effect "gone", or at least hard to find, hard to find as in "here go on this quest, someone had a pirate copy" hard to find
we have, as noted previously, "bit rot" today, parchment appears to last a lot better than spinning rust, even if the information density is lower.
then you have to consider how much information we have today that assumes other information is present or known, so you have your perfect design for a perfect plasma projection weapon, you have the blueprints, you know what it will do, but you have no idea what "grade 436-b Astradium - Ogran allow" is, it was common enough when the plan was written they didn't include it - same as how say the blueprints for a car today will specify the steel, but won't include how to make it.
stuff gets fragmented.
failing that, just say a wizard did it, or some quasi-religious order has declared SD cards heresy
I like the Primaris models and I have added a handful to both my Space Wolves and my Blood Angels.
The only issue I have with them is their rather niche organisation. At a guess, I would say GW didn't want to outright obsolete the existing SM range by introducing Primaris equivalents that were just better in every way. Hence the Primaris range lacks conventional heavy support and melee units. The "melee" option are billed as more like super-scouts while the heavy support are either lots of plasma guns or a unit that has bolters strapped to their storm bolters.
regarding tech being lost, if you look at the history of lost technology (which I'm going to borrow a phrase from another franchise and call Lostech) you generally see a bit of a pattern emerge, Technology that was wide spread and in use by multiple parties didn't get lost. case in point we never lost the ability to make iron weapons. technology is eaither lost when it's something that no one has any use for anymore and gets forgotten (fairly rare) or something that was basicly a secret of one civilization, lost with the civilization's fall.
in 40k we do see stuff from option 2 quite a bit. "forge world X fell, they where the only forge world with STC X" So I suspect a lot of the lost tech these days comes from admech secrecy.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding tech being lost, if you look at the history of lost technology (which I'm going to borrow a phrase from another franchise and call Lostech) you generally see a bit of a pattern emerge, Technology that was wide spread and in use by multiple parties didn't get lost. case in point we never lost the ability to make iron weapons. technology is eaither lost when it's something that no one has any use for anymore and gets forgotten (fairly rare) or something that was basicly a secret of one civilization, lost with the civilization's fall.
in 40k we do see stuff from option 2 quite a bit. "forge world X fell, they where the only forge world with STC X" So I suspect a lot of the lost tech these days comes from admech secrecy.
I think we also have to consider that the Imperium is a state where information and communication are extremely tightly controlled. People are not told something unless they need to know it, and are often told propaganda, embilishments, or straight up lies when they are told things.
How to make... say a Plasma Gun is not something you could look up on the internet, and it would not be recorded anywhere on your standard Human world. It would likely only be recorded formally in specific AdMech controlled locations.
In such circumstances, it's easy to see how such technologies could be lost when key world's fall or other disasters happen.
Roll that in with a state religion that basically forbids scientific experimentation which might otherwise be able to fill in blanks, and give it 20,000 or so years, and that's a recipe for significant lost technology.
I'll add that there will certainly be a form of black market information distribution, as there is for us. It may well be possible to 'save' at risk information through such channels sometimes. But it's also important to remember that this is a state where having possession of that sort of thing is likely to get you BLAMMED on the spot without trial.
I simply cannot understand how people think Aggressors look worse than Centurions. If anything, I want to put Centurion weapons on some Aggressors!
Taken in a vacuum, an Intercessor is, visually, a better model than a Tactical marine in every possible way, save for any extra gothic detailing which is going to vary by each player's taste anyway, and is stupidly simple to add.
AegisGrimm wrote: I simply cannot understand how people think Aggressors look worse than Centurions. If anything, I want to put Centurion weapons on some Aggressors!
Taken in a vacuum, an Intercessor is, visually, a better model than a Tactical marine in every possible way, save for any extra gothic detailing which is going to vary by each player's taste anyway, and is stupidly simple to add.
They are not visually uglier but they aspire to out terminate the terminator and for that heresy are ugly to the intellect.
Martel732 wrote: That's just it. Humanity has never gone backwards technogically, only politically. Even then, peasants had more rights than roman slaves. China was unaffected anyway.
This is clearly false given evidence of standing structures and large stones carved and placed on a scale and with a precision unmet by current and even anticipated technologies... It is relatively easier to destroy things than to build things and given that much of today's tech derives from wartime ingenuity it is most likely given evidence cited above that we are well behind civilizations perhaps 20millennia old or more. In this grim darkness of today also there is mostly war. Mostly.
So are people really arguing that the Imperium could not have lost technology that belonged to humanity that had to fight planet eating AGIs because of data stored on digital media? I saw the comments about thumb drives and the cloud but I don't think most of that would survive a serious nuclear exchange due to EMPs in modern day. Digital entities would be an even bigger can of worms.
As for people talking about Europe developing the printing press in the mid 1400s, China had movable type printing presses several hundred years before that, so about the time Europe was coming out of the Dark Ages. Is that such an impressive feat now?
Skaorn wrote: So are people really arguing that the Imperium could not have lost technology that belonged to humanity that had to fight planet eating AGIs because of data stored on digital media? I saw the comments about thumb drives and the cloud but I don't think most of that would survive a serious nuclear exchange due to EMPs in modern day. Digital entities would be an even bigger can of worms.
As for people talking about Europe developing the printing press in the mid 1400s, China had movable type printing presses several hundred years before that, so about the time Europe was coming out of the Dark Ages. Is that such an impressive feat now?
the printing press was more aimed at the idea that Europe lost a ton of tech during the roman times. there was some stuff lost yes but no where near what we think, and some tech was developed post roman times the idea of a massive tech loss with the fall of Rome is more romance then fact
They are not visually uglier but they aspire to out terminate the terminator and for that heresy are ugly to the intellect.
except they don't. there is simply no evidance agressors are intended to be the "new terminator"
Absolutely agree with this. They fill vastly different roles both on the tabletop and in the lore. The comparison to Centurions is far more apt.
Like literally the only similarity between Aggressors and Terminators is that they're chunkier marines. Oh, and I guess powerfists :p
I do think Primaris Terminators will happen though, but when they do they will preserve the iconic Indomitus look generally. In the same way as Intercessors still look like Marines, just scaled up and better proportioned.
Like:
- Look of models in the standard Primaris power armour
- How an Intercessor squad feels like marines "should" on the table (2 attacks, 2 wounds)
Dislike:
- Lack of mobility in HQ slot. Footslogging HQs are so meh.
- How the non-standard armour variants are so chunky... agressors, inceptors, gravis. They all look too rotund.
- The way they are over-gunning new models without making them particularly durable (e.g. Redemptor, Repulsor... cost ALL the points, shoot ALL the bullets)
- The name "Hellblasters" is awful... completely out of sync with the other names.
Happy to have some Primaris in my marines army but as yet I am not kicking down GW's door to buy more.
Hopefully they get...
- A razorback-style cheap transport with maybe only 23 guns rather than the repulsor's 27
- HQ's that can fly or at least move more than 6"
- Some kind of specialist fast moving assault/melee unit
Karol wrote: The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Pedantic point, but you might like to check out a timeline of European history to see where the Dark Ages and middle ages occur and when.
Silentz wrote: Like:
- Look of models in the standard Primaris power armour
- How an Intercessor squad feels like marines "should" on the table (2 attacks, 2 wounds)
Dislike:
- Lack of mobility in HQ slot. Footslogging HQs are so meh.
- How the non-standard armour variants are so chunky... agressors, inceptors, gravis. They all look too rotund.
- The way they are over-gunning new models without making them particularly durable (e.g. Redemptor, Repulsor... cost ALL the points, shoot ALL the bullets)
- The name "Hellblasters" is awful... completely out of sync with the other names.
Happy to have some Primaris in my marines army but as yet I am not kicking down GW's door to buy more.
Hopefully they get...
- A razorback-style cheap transport with maybe only 23 guns rather than the repulsor's 27
- HQ's that can fly or at least move more than 6"
- Some kind of specialist fast moving assault/melee unit
Yeah, those are the main ones for me too. To be specific I would like:
A transport well under 200pts for Primaris.
Inceptor HQs.
Power weapon of some sort for Reivers.
Heavy melee loadout for Inceptors.
I'd also like a longer range loadout for Hellblasters, though there's a risk of too much redundancy with Devs.
I was actually thinking the hellblasters today whilst daydreaming about a battlefront style (the Pandemic ones, not the EA ones) 40k video game, and it occurred to me...they’ve got them backwards with regards to names. Hellblasters with plasma incinerators? Why wasn’t it...Incinerators with plasma hellblasters?
I was actually thinking the hellblasters today whilst daydreaming about a battlefront style (the Pandemic ones, not the EA ones) 40k video game, and it occurred to me...they’ve got them backwards with regards to names. Hellblasters with plasma incinerators? Why wasn’t it...Incinerators with plasma hellblasters?
Karol wrote: The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Pedantic point, but you might like to check out a timeline of European history to see where the Dark Ages and middle ages occur and when.
And why. Religious zealotry harnassed by a landed class of warlords as the empire disintegrated and the once thriving middle classes fell into poverty from which one escape was soldiering in crusades against heretics in order to prop up an economy dependent on perpetual war and pillage and prone to infighting... Hmmmmm. Suspiciously like the current status quo and increasingly less resembling the newly geld age of Girlyman resurgent with his shiny new boy toys.
Besides that tech history does not begin with Rome...
Karol wrote: The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Pedantic point, but you might like to check out a timeline of European history to see where the Dark Ages and middle ages occur and when.
And why. Religious zealotry harnassed by a landed class of warlords as the empire disintegrated and the once thriving middle classes fell into poverty from which one escape was soldiering in crusades against heretics in order to prop up an economy dependent on perpetual war and pillage and prone to infighting... Hmmmmm. Suspiciously like the current status quo and increasingly less resembling the newly geld age of Girlyman resurgent with his shiny new boy toys.
Besides that tech history does not begin with Rome...
The crusades didn't occur till after the dark ages, and by the time of the crusades, the western empire had been gone for about 600 years. And even so, the cause of the dark ages was a mix of things but was primarily caused by 2 things: a huge surge of germanic tribes migrating into the empire, welcome or not, and decades of civil and political strife. As the basic functions of the government collapsed, citizens sought protection under wealthy landlords who would later become the barons of medieval Europe, paving the way for a feudal society.
After West Rome finally collapsed the landlords and german warlords fought over the remnants from their humble wooden castles (mottes and baileys) and it is this period that really defined the dark ages. Once the nation states of France and Germany came into being, Northern Europe got a lot more stable.
Oh, and the vikings didn't help any. Their raids really damaged any progress being made by the local rulers. The siege of Paris was particularly spectacular.
Of course historians hate the term "dark ages" since it brings up negative and erroneous images of the time period. Ireland was finally somewhat stabilized thanks to the efforts of St. Patrick and the various new monasteries that sought to maintain and advance knowledge. (but then the vikings also burnt those down eventually, but that was later in the period)
There's also the fact that the Eastern Empire flourished for some centuries during the "dark ages" and kept all their knowledge and also made advancements.
So, not quite a representation of 40k I'd say. Maybe some bits were inspiration taken to 11.
But back to the topic. Primaris Intercessors/Reivers are cool but lack special weapons which really kills it for me. Everything else is meh to ugly (looking at you dreadnought)
And TBH, I'm not entirely convinced that Primaris will replace old marines. A bloated model line that sells doesn't really need culling does it? Maybe in 20 years old marines will go the way of he ork buggy: smashed in a promo video.
You see what I mean yes? In fact, you might even be able to forget the name helblaster altogether. Have just Primaris Incinerators with plasma rifles, auto plasma guns or heavy plasma guns. Or maybe that’s too dreary, but I definitely think that Incinerator is a better name for the troop type.
And I also think that the old stubby marines won’t be phased out until every one of their units has a Primaris replacement lined up. So far at best we have a equivalents for tacticals, devastators, close range foot scouts, assault squads, centurions, and most (every?) foot slogging type character except for the tech priest. We’d need terminator, sniper scout, bike and speeder equivalents too, not to mention more tanks and aircraft if the Primes where to ever carry the range by themselves. Along with interceptor heroes and new bike heroes too.
Idea for these theorical sniper scouts; guys in the ‘Reiver’ type armour but with different helmets and wearing camo cloaks equipped with improved sniper rifles or bolt carbines.
Maybe it's just my local meta, but the only thing Primaris really feel like they're missing as a stand-alone force is the ability to destroy heavy vehicles/monstrous creatures at range.
The Newman wrote: Maybe it's just my local meta, but the only thing Primaris really feel like they're missing as a stand-alone force is the ability to destroy heavy vehicles/monstrous creatures at range.
Yeah, need some Lasblasters
EDIT:
Actually no. Do it with Aggressors. One hand held underslung Lascannon equivalent. Give them relentless/shoot twice when stationary and bonza.
Point defense lasers on their shoulders: 12" Pistol d3, S5, -1 AP, 1D. Hits on full BS when firing overwatch. (Will also shoot twice when stationary).
If Centurions weren't 10-20 points overpriced they'd pretty much fit the bill. They're the only available old-marine infantry that's actually bigger than an Intercessor, so they don't look out of place in a Primaris army.
The Newman wrote: If Centurions weren't 10-20 points overpriced they'd pretty much fit the bill. They're the only available old-marine infantry that's actually bigger than an Intercessor, so they don't look out of place in a Primaris army.
Aye, the las/missile loadout is eye watering. Actually MORE points than a twin las/missile dreadnought!
The cent missiles are better tbf, but when you compare the durability of the two models the pricing is insane.
But everyone knows this. The question will be has GW written off centurions at this point, or are they a going concern? Part of the issue there is that only the core chapters even get centurions, so if they want to give Primaris a long range high damage infantry Centurions may not be the answer, even costed appropriately.
I still love the terminators image, more tan any primaris model. Agressors has are a very nice model too, but they don't arrive to the termis.
I prefeer as collector: -the intercessor over the tactical
- the Dreadnought over the Redemptor
-the Land Raider over the Repulsor
-the assault marines over the reivers
-the terminators over agressors or centurions
-the primaris captain over the "normal" one
Special mention for the inceptor, I like them as model and also for play them.
And about the terminators, ATM y don't use them on table.I would like but...
Alex_85 wrote: I still love the terminators image, more tan any primaris model. Agressors has are a very nice model too, but they don't arrive to the termis.
I prefeer as collector: -the intercessor over the tactical
- the Dreadnought over the Redemptor
-the Land Raider over the Repulsor
-the assault marines over the reivers
-the terminators over agressors or centurions
-the primaris captain over the "normal" one
Special mention for the inceptor, I like them as model and also for play them.
And about the terminators, ATM y don't use them on table.I would like but...
Mostly agree with this!
Redemptor I'm completely the opposite though. I think it's one of the best Marine kits released in years hah!
Also I don't see Terminators as directly competing with Gravis. I see them as very different roles. I think we will see a Primaris version of the Indomitus Terminator aesthetic one day.
Oh, and while I'm not that big on Reivers I do actually prefer Inceptors to Assault Marines. Obviously they too are very different roles, but aethetically there's a connection.
- The name "Hellblasters" is awful... completely out of sync with the other names.
Can we take a moment to look at this, because honestly I never even noticed that at some point in the Games Workshop Creative Department LLC, Archibald Fakelatin took a sick day and they had a temp fill in whose name was coming up with names for the direct to video Hellraiser sequels.
Every SINGLE name for everything these guys have is ultra pretentious ultra copyrightable fake latin bullcrap and then you've got HELLLLLLLLLLLLLBLASTERRRRRRRS, a name that Vince Mcmahon would feel silly yelling while the lights came on and the smoke machine kicked up.
Alex_85 wrote: I still love the terminators image, more tan any primaris model. Agressors has are a very nice model too, but they don't arrive to the termis.
I prefeer as collector: -the intercessor over the tactical
- the Dreadnought over the Redemptor
-the Land Raider over the Repulsor
-the assault marines over the reivers
-the terminators over agressors or centurions
-the primaris captain over the "normal" one
Special mention for the inceptor, I like them as model and also for play them.
And about the terminators, ATM y don't use them on table.I would like but...
Mostly agree with this!
Redemptor I'm completely the opposite though. I think it's one of the best Marine kits released in years hah!
Also I don't see Terminators as directly competing with Gravis. I see them as very different roles. I think we will see a Primaris version of the Indomitus Terminator aesthetic one day.
Oh, and while I'm not that big on Reivers I do actually prefer Inceptors to Assault Marines. Obviously they too are very different roles, but aethetically there's a connection.
I'm gonna throw out a solid "doubt it" on that one. I do not think it's a coincidence that in the years since Games Workshop's copyright troubles, they've been steadily releasing kits that solidify the basic aesthetic of "what looks like a space marine" which very critically includes the look of the helmet and the basic body proportions. Something as aesthetically divergent as the Elephanthead terminators or the weird hunchback scouts isn't going to be seen again.
I don't think it would be exactly the same, it would be reproportioned to look like someone vaguely human shaped would fit in the armour! And scaled up to the Primaris scale of course.
Personally I see the basic aethetic or Terminators to be almost as big a part of the identity of Marines, and by extension 40k and even GW as a whole, as Power Armour. So I think they will be keen to continue it in this new age.
Of course, right now it probably doesn't feel like they are important, with how rarely we see Termies on the table :/
- The name "Hellblasters" is awful... completely out of sync with the other names.
Can we take a moment to look at this, because honestly I never even noticed that at some point in the Games Workshop Creative Department LLC, Archibald Fakelatin took a sick day and they had a temp fill in whose name was coming up with names for the direct to video Hellraiser sequels.
Every SINGLE name for everything these guys have is ultra pretentious ultra copyrightable fake latin bullcrap and then you've got HELLLLLLLLLLLLLBLASTERRRRRRRS, a name that Vince Mcmahon would feel silly yelling while the lights came on and the smoke machine kicked up.
Exactly!
AND does the concept of "Hell" actually have any meaning in 40k? Even though it actually kind of does exist (I guess the Warp is pretty close) does anyone refer to it as Hell in any of the books, ever?
And if Hell did exist, would you want to blast it with an S8 gun?
I don't think it would be exactly the same, it would be reproportioned to look like someone vaguely human shaped would fit in the armour! And scaled up to the Primaris scale of course.
Personally I see the basic aethetic or Terminators to be almost as big a part of the identity of Marines, and by extension 40k and even GW as a whole, as Power Armour. So I think they will be keen to continue it in this new age.
Of course, right now it probably doesn't feel like they are important, with how rarely we see Termies on the table :/
More like, how many terminator kits have we had since the last time an elephant-helmet termie was released
not aggressors
not death guard
not thousand sons
not cataphractii
not tartaros
not Those Guys Who Are Totally Not A Space Marine Release You Guys Theyre Totally Unique And Different They Just Have Terminators And Land Raiders And Dreadnoughts And Boltguns Allarus Terminators
Stux wrote: Personally I see the basic aethetic or Terminators to be almost as big a part of the identity of Marines, and by extension 40k and even GW as a whole, as Power Armour. So I think they will be keen to continue it in this new age.
Of course, right now it probably doesn't feel like they are important, with how rarely we see Termies on the table :/
Agree. I see a a space ship in any psi-fi movie and inmediatelly the SM terminators come to my mind, walking along dark floors.
Too many points for being eliminated shortly, but this is how they are right now.
Ok, but conversely that could also be a sign that they are working on Primaris Indomitus Terminators. Seeing as these things have whtat, a 9 month lead time or something like that isn't it?
Also, when was the last Space Hulk release..? That's probably technically it haha
AND does the concept of "Hell" actually have any meaning in 40k? Even though it actually kind of does exist (I guess the Warp is pretty close) does anyone refer to it as Hell in any of the books, ever?
And if Hell did exist, would you want to blast it with an S8 gun?
AND does the concept of "Hell" actually have any meaning in 40k? Even though it actually kind of does exist (I guess the Warp is pretty close) does anyone refer to it as Hell in any of the books, ever?
And if Hell did exist, would you want to blast it with an S8 gun?
It's such BS
They're called Incinerators now for me.
I'm so glad that's catching on.
I'll put my hand up and say I am a big apologist for Primaris, but even I like this idea haha
AND does the concept of "Hell" actually have any meaning in 40k? Even though it actually kind of does exist (I guess the Warp is pretty close) does anyone refer to it as Hell in any of the books, ever?
And if Hell did exist, would you want to blast it with an S8 gun?
It's such BS
They're called Incinerators now for me.
I'm so glad that's catching on.
Kind of reminds me of a very slightly more PG-13 version of that time when George Lucas really REALLY wanted to call one of the droid vehicles rolling around in the background so he could make a toy and lego set in the Prequels a "Hellfire droid" but the focus groups didnt like it so it got renamed a "hailfire droid".
Someone from GW legal came down to the game design workshop at one point and gave them authorization to use exactly one cuss word: hell.
And someone raised their hand and said "does this mean we can rename the stupid hot-shot lasg-"
"nowealreadyhaveacopyrightonthatshutupsteve"
and then the guy who came up with the names for all the Space Wolf stuff had himself an idea...
The Newman wrote: If Centurions weren't 10-20 points overpriced they'd pretty much fit the bill. They're the only available old-marine infantry that's actually bigger than an Intercessor, so they don't look out of place in a Primaris army.
Aye, the las/missile loadout is eye watering. Actually MORE points than a twin las/missile dreadnought!
The cent missiles are better tbf, but when you compare the durability of the two models the pricing is insane.
But everyone knows this. The question will be has GW written off centurions at this point, or are they a going concern? Part of the issue there is that only the core chapters even get centurions, so if they want to give Primaris a long range high damage infantry Centurions may not be the answer, even costed appropriately.
That can't possibly be right.
[Checks Battlescribe]...[/Checks Battlescribe]
Holy [expletive deleted] a single Centurion is more expensive than a basic Dreadnaught. What spastic baboon thought that was ok? How does that get past playtesting? How does that get past proofreading?
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
Just compare the Repulsor to the Landraider. The Raider looks infinitely better in every way. The Repulsor by contrast just looks like something they stole from the scrap room Bungie uses to toss all their failed Halo/Destiny designs into....
Karol wrote: The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Pedantic point, but you might like to check out a timeline of European history to see where the Dark Ages and middle ages occur and when.
It ends in 1492. all the things I listed were used or invented before that date. I really isn't a smart thing to echo XVI-XIX century propaganda. The dark ages were not dark. Even the migration period was not dark, because like in all war times, stuff like metalurgy expirianced a period of growth.
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
I think they have "soul", if they are run as DW. If the non DW primaris got special or heavy weapons and not just bland bolters they would have soul too.
- The name "Hellblasters" is awful... completely out of sync with the other names.
Can we take a moment to look at this, because honestly I never even noticed that at some point in the Games Workshop Creative Department LLC, Archibald Fakelatin took a sick day and they had a temp fill in whose name was coming up with names for the direct to video Hellraiser sequels.
Every SINGLE name for everything these guys have is ultra pretentious ultra copyrightable fake latin bullcrap and then you've got HELLLLLLLLLLLLLBLASTERRRRRRRS, a name that Vince Mcmahon would feel silly yelling while the lights came on and the smoke machine kicked up.
Alex_85 wrote: I still love the terminators image, more tan any primaris model. Agressors has are a very nice model too, but they don't arrive to the termis.
I prefeer as collector: -the intercessor over the tactical
- the Dreadnought over the Redemptor
-the Land Raider over the Repulsor
-the assault marines over the reivers
-the terminators over agressors or centurions
-the primaris captain over the "normal" one
Special mention for the inceptor, I like them as model and also for play them.
And about the terminators, ATM y don't use them on table.I would like but...
Mostly agree with this!
Redemptor I'm completely the opposite though. I think it's one of the best Marine kits released in years hah!
Also I don't see Terminators as directly competing with Gravis. I see them as very different roles. I think we will see a Primaris version of the Indomitus Terminator aesthetic one day.
Oh, and while I'm not that big on Reivers I do actually prefer Inceptors to Assault Marines. Obviously they too are very different roles, but aethetically there's a connection.
I'm gonna throw out a solid "doubt it" on that one. I do not think it's a coincidence that in the years since Games Workshop's copyright troubles, they've been steadily releasing kits that solidify the basic aesthetic of "what looks like a space marine" which very critically includes the look of the helmet and the basic body proportions. Something as aesthetically divergent as the Elephanthead terminators or the weird hunchback scouts isn't going to be seen again.
See this is what currently concerns me though. Everyone seems to think GW is riding this high right now, and everything has changed. But, has it? With the recent price hikes, I'm not sure it really has. There are new stratagems inside KT boxes al a Formations in 7th edition. If the KT boxes are selling well and the complaints about this are low, you can bet your pants that within the next year they'll port this same tired mode back into 40K proper and with each new kit or box, the stratagems present within them will break the base game more and more, the same way formations did in 7th.
Can we also mention the fact that GW really does seem to just be flooding the market with release after release in the same way that a breacher would knock down a door in Afghanistan in a terrorist compound and spray buckshot, just hoping to get a hit? I really have a feeling that part of their recent success is related to the fact that they're selling so many varied products, rather than actually increasing spending due to quality products at reasonable prices. Look at tactical marine kits, compared to Intercessors. In the intercessor kit, you get....BOLTGUNS! Wooo! But in the tactical kit you get Boltguns, Meltas, Flamers, Plasma and Gravity, bolt pistols, grav pistols, plas pistols, chain swords, power axes, power swords, power fists, knives, a missile launcher and a heavy bolter!
The custom ability of the Tactical Kit over the Primaris kit is no contest, the primaris lose every time on this.
Karol wrote: The middle ages were so backward that we invented stuff like the printing press, new types of wind and water mills, the flying buttress,new types of ships, the eye glasses and the lens linked discoveries etc Just because people didn't have vulcanic soil needed to make roman cement doesn't mean middle ages made people run around in fur wearing helmets with horns.
Pedantic point, but you might like to check out a timeline of European history to see where the Dark Ages and middle ages occur and when.
It ends in 1492. all the things I listed were used or invented before that date. I really isn't a smart thing to echo XVI-XIX century propaganda. The dark ages were not dark. Even the migration period was not dark, because like in all war times, stuff like metalurgy expirianced a period of growth.
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
I think they have "soul", if they are run as DW. If the non DW primaris got special or heavy weapons and not just bland bolters they would have soul too.
I don't even think they have it there. They still look like bad copies of characters from Destiny or from League of Legends. They remind me so much more of Infinity models than they do of "Warhammer" models.
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
Now I know more about them I like Primaris models. The more I know about them I hate Primaris force org and fluff.
I understand GW's need for a next generation space marine but they went the wrong way about it.
Bring back Guilliman, thats fine that is nice interesting fluff. However rather than actioning an army 10000 years in stasis the fluff should have gone something like this.
Rouboute Gulliman: My faithful battle brother, thank you for the situation update, but may I ask thee, how are you so small?
Marneus Calgar: Father, ten millenia has past and even our geneseed has weakened over time. Once our brethren were nine foot tall as you remember, now we are little more then men in stature, though the geneseed hold remains strong.
Rouboute Gulliman: Hmm. The Apothecaries must take sample of my blood and infuse it into the current stock of geneseed. and renew the strength as of the first generation. The next generation of Astartes to grow shall be as tall and mighty as the heroes of old.
Marneus Calgar: Father, as you will it, so it shall be done.
You have a primarch and now marines jump in size to 'true scale'. Simple, the true scale is just the scale marines should be, but after ten millenia this stature has worn out of them. Early generation CSM are regular marine size because they 'withered' over time.
As for the force org, Guilliman is the polar opposite of an idiot. He would insist on special and heavy weapons in Intercessor squads.
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
As someone who spent a lot of time "interesting-ing" up four ez-build primaris marines for my Deathwatch kill team, they're pretty much interchangable with everything bar legs and torsos to the current marine kits. I replaced their arms with spare Deathwatch arms, their heads with spare heads I had kicking around from various marine boxes, one of their backbacks to make him look space wolfy, it actually turned out pretty great.
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
I just mean options.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
The power sword option is there because of the "30 Years of Warhammer 40,000" Intercessor Sergeant figure. And the Dark Angels Upgrade Frame. And the Ultramarines Upgrade Frame.
There's Power Swords available. Heck, the Primaris Captain has one and can be built without it.
Anyways, the "blandness" is fluff related. Guilliman resurrected the old Legion style of tactics where rather than mixing a squad, the squads get defined roles and loadouts.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
The power sword option is there because of the "30 Years of Warhammer 40,000" Intercessor Sergeant figure. And the Dark Angels Upgrade Frame. And the Ultramarines Upgrade Frame.
There's Power Swords available. Heck, the Primaris Captain has one and can be built without it.
Anyways, the "blandness" is fluff related. Guilliman resurrected the old Legion style of tactics where rather than mixing a squad, the squads get defined roles and loadouts.
I would like to have power fist on the intercessor sarg. 3 Power fist attack on 4s, I would take it.
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
I just mean options.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
Yeah and those Tactical Squads are bad because they aren't defined. Having lots of options doesn't matter if 99% of those aren't taken.
Remember the Aura of Dark Glory compared to the Sigil Of Corruption in the 6th edition CSM codex? No you don't.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
The power sword option is there because of the "30 Years of Warhammer 40,000" Intercessor Sergeant figure. And the Dark Angels Upgrade Frame. And the Ultramarines Upgrade Frame.
There's Power Swords available. Heck, the Primaris Captain has one and can be built without it.
Anyways, the "blandness" is fluff related. Guilliman resurrected the old Legion style of tactics where rather than mixing a squad, the squads get defined roles and loadouts.
Granted. Still doesn't mean that Intercessor sprues have NOTHING on them of any interest. Just boltguns.
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
I just mean options.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
Yeah and those Tactical Squads are bad because they aren't defined. Having lots of options doesn't matter if 99% of those aren't taken.
Remember the Aura of Dark Glory compared to the Sigil Of Corruption in the 6th edition CSM codex? No you don't.
You can't force people to play the game in a way that doesn't go the WAAC rout. For the rest of us that don't care about that, and play in friendly groups away from the general competitive scene, we take all the options in weird and wacky combos.
Not withstanding, but what about modeling? Some people love to build and paint, and don't care about playing.
If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
The power sword option is there because of the "30 Years of Warhammer 40,000" Intercessor Sergeant figure. And the Dark Angels Upgrade Frame. And the Ultramarines Upgrade Frame.
There's Power Swords available. Heck, the Primaris Captain has one and can be built without it.
Anyways, the "blandness" is fluff related. Guilliman resurrected the old Legion style of tactics where rather than mixing a squad, the squads get defined roles and loadouts.
Granted. Still doesn't mean that Intercessor sprues have NOTHING on them of any interest. Just boltguns.
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
My issue with the primaris line is that all of the models are devoid of any *soul.* When compared to the kit of Sternguard, or to the more recent Centurion/Death Watch kits, they're just bland and generic scifi troopers with long boltguns and purity seals glued on. I've recently made the decision to reubild my olver 6th/7th edition Salamanders because i have the time, money and interest in doing so, before the old line is gone permanently!
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
I just mean options.
I can build a tactical squad with a melta, heavy bolter, sarge with a power fist and a grav pistol.
I can build an intercessor squad with boltguns. Sarges can take a power sword, but there isn't one on the sprue.
See what I mean? The Intercessors are bland. They're just so bland.
Yeah and those Tactical Squads are bad because they aren't defined. Having lots of options doesn't matter if 99% of those aren't taken.
Remember the Aura of Dark Glory compared to the Sigil Of Corruption in the 6th edition CSM codex? No you don't.
You can't force people to play the game in a way that doesn't go the WAAC rout. For the rest of us that don't care about that, and play in friendly groups away from the general competitive scene, we take all the options in weird and wacky combos.
Not withstanding, but what about modeling? Some people love to build and paint, and don't care about playing.
Well it sounds like if you cared that little, you'd model those Intercessors with the Tactical Weapons to give yourself a modeling challenge and then use them in a game that's friendly because nobody cares, right?
You also never answered the question regarding the Aura Of Dark Glory vs the Sigil Of Corruption.
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
I agree, but we still have old school Marines, maybe they'll get ridda em maybe they won't. by my way of thinking the best way to enchourage things is buy what you want, if we're still buying tons of old school marines for the modeling options (I know I am) GW will take note of that\. the horus heresy referance IMHO is a good one,Primaris Marines are proably designed to cash in on the popularity of the heresy, and thus use a similer approuch to warfare
You also never answered the question regarding the Aura Of Dark Glory vs the Sigil Of Corruption.
in fairness thats not a very good question considering that neither of those where modeling options and where just something you wrote down on your list that it had.
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
I agree, but we still have old school Marines, maybe they'll get ridda em maybe they won't. by my way of thinking the best way to enchourage things is buy what you want, if we're still buying tons of old school marines for the modeling options (I know I am) GW will take note of that\. the horus heresy referance IMHO is a good one,Primaris Marines are proably designed to cash in on the popularity of the heresy, and thus use a similer approuch to warfare
You also never answered the question regarding the Aura Of Dark Glory vs the Sigil Of Corruption.
in fairness thats not a very good question considering that neither of those where modeling options and where just something you wrote down on your list that it had.
However the same logic applies. If the option is useless, it's useless. Counts-As happens a lot with Marine armies for that reason.
Gitdakka wrote:If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
All of the amazing kitbashes that you can do with the entire Space Marine range (especially considering that shoulder pads and helmets are interchangeable, and weapons aren't hard to convert) can be done on Primaris models too. The main draw of the Primaris for me is their increased size, the plain-er armour (which I can bling and tacticool up as I choose, not how GW does, and the better quality of the models in general.
Sure, I can't have a storm shield on my Captain (which I always used to do). Does that mean I can't model it? Of course not - I'll just count them as a Gravis Captain instead.
Primaris don't have the same range of bits as the Mark 7 kits. At the same time, the Mark 7 kits look a little ridiculous next to guardsmen and a lot of things on the tabletop. Combining the two is the way forward.
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
I agree, but we still have old school Marines, maybe they'll get ridda em maybe they won't. by my way of thinking the best way to enchourage things is buy what you want, if we're still buying tons of old school marines for the modeling options (I know I am) GW will take note of that\. the horus heresy referance IMHO is a good one,Primaris Marines are proably designed to cash in on the popularity of the heresy, and thus use a similer approuch to warfare
You also never answered the question regarding the Aura Of Dark Glory vs the Sigil Of Corruption.
in fairness thats not a very good question considering that neither of those where modeling options and where just something you wrote down on your list that it had.
However the same logic applies. If the option is useless, it's useless. Counts-As happens a lot with Marine armies for that reason.
I think you;re missing what I'm saying, you're trying to argue from a rules POV, but the person complaining about lack of options is thinking from a modeler POV, where you have less bits weapons etc to customize your unit.
Crimson Devil wrote: Modellers aren't restricted by the contents of the box. Unless they have a malfunctioning imagination.
Thats a strange thing to state. Can modellers appreciate a good box of miniatures or are they then malfunctioning? Should we all just buy greenstuff and copper wire and make our minis from scratch to be considered worthy hobbyists?
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
I agree, but we still have old school Marines, maybe they'll get ridda em maybe they won't. by my way of thinking the best way to enchourage things is buy what you want, if we're still buying tons of old school marines for the modeling options (I know I am) GW will take note of that\. the horus heresy referance IMHO is a good one,Primaris Marines are proably designed to cash in on the popularity of the heresy, and thus use a similer approuch to warfare
You also never answered the question regarding the Aura Of Dark Glory vs the Sigil Of Corruption.
in fairness thats not a very good question considering that neither of those where modeling options and where just something you wrote down on your list that it had.
However the same logic applies. If the option is useless, it's useless. Counts-As happens a lot with Marine armies for that reason.
You are still weating the waac googles, in wich case a model is only as good as its rules...
For me the weapons play differently in the game. Flamers, meltas, plasmas, heavy bolters, fists, swords all act differently in the game wich is enough for me to use them all.
If the tournament optimal choice is to put nothing but plasmas on everything because of damage per points scenarios then the choice is there. That however is not how we all play the game. And if the rules was reduced to only one loadout option, it would make the game less compelling to me.
I miss little pointless customisation. I wish sergeants had more options. In my old marine army I used to give every sergeant their own personalised loadout. It was basically just for funsies and modelling. I miss that. Primaris sergeants basically have an option to take a power sword or not (and bizarrely Reiver sergeants cannot even take that.) I would be satisfied if they just had full SMCC weapon options at leas, and perhaps different pistols.
And of course and even more importantly the characters need full weapon options as well. Lieutenants literally have less options than sergeants. They need to sacrifice their gun to have a sword, while doth sergeants and captains can have both...
Crimson wrote: I miss little pointless customisation. I wish sergeants had more options. In my old marine army I used to give every sergeant their own personalised loadout. It was basically just for funsies and modelling. I miss that. Primaris sergeants basically have an option to take a power sword or not (and bizarrely Reiver sergeants cannot even take that.) I would be satisfied if they just had full SMCC weapon options at leas, and perhaps different pistols.
And of course and even more importantly the characters need full weapon options as well. Lieutenants literally have less options than sergeants. They need to sacrifice their gun to have a sword, while doth sergeants and captains can have both...
It's also very clearly done for modeling purposes as a Space Wolf Primaris Lt can take a bolt carbin,e power axe and pistol. swapping out both weapons for a master crafted sword or rifle (which is actually a nice touch, specialization vs generalization)
The no model no rules thing bothers me a lot about the primaris.
Space marine officers should have pretty much full run of the armory. But they can’t unless there is a mini for it. They make a plasma pistol/powererfist captain though, and suddenly that’s an option. But only in that specific combo, and only for captains. The LT. is stuck with his gear. (But his smaller counterpart has full access).
It breaks immersion. There is no in-game reason for it.
Nevelon wrote: The no model no rules thing bothers me a lot about the primaris.
Space marine officers should have pretty much full run of the armory. But they can’t unless there is a mini for it. They make a plasma pistol/powererfist captain though, and suddenly that’s an option. But only in that specific combo, and only for captains. The LT. is stuck with his gear. (But his smaller counterpart has full access).
It breaks immersion. There is no in-game reason for it.
It is insane. I get not giving rules for stuff there are absolutely no bits for, but anything that can be kitbashed from that model range should be allowed.
Gitdakka wrote:Thats a strange thing to state. Can modellers appreciate a good box of miniatures or are they then malfunctioning? Should we all just buy greenstuff and copper wire and make our minis from scratch to be considered worthy hobbyists?
Modellers can, but they shouldn't say that they have no options when they totally have the option to kitbash and count-as.
Yes, the Primaris lack certain things from their kit. That sucks. Is it the end of the world or insurmountable? No.
Crimson wrote:I miss little pointless customisation. I wish sergeants had more options. In my old marine army I used to give every sergeant their own personalised loadout. It was basically just for funsies and modelling. I miss that. Primaris sergeants basically have an option to take a power sword or not (and bizarrely Reiver sergeants cannot even take that.) I would be satisfied if they just had full SMCC weapon options at leas, and perhaps different pistols.
And of course and even more importantly the characters need full weapon options as well. Lieutenants literally have less options than sergeants. They need to sacrifice their gun to have a sword, while doth sergeants and captains can have both...
Nevelon wrote:The no model no rules thing bothers me a lot about the primaris.
Space marine officers should have pretty much full run of the armory. But they can’t unless there is a mini for it. They make a plasma pistol/powererfist captain though, and suddenly that’s an option. But only in that specific combo, and only for captains. The LT. is stuck with his gear. (But his smaller counterpart has full access).
It breaks immersion. There is no in-game reason for it.
Crimson wrote:It is insane. I get not giving rules for stuff there are absolutely no bits for, but anything that can be kitbashed from that model range should be allowed.
However, that can be a slippery slope. I *can* convert a Captain to have a lascannon, or Guilliman's sword, but that's never been an option, not for regular Captains, and not for Primaris.
I *can* convert a unit of Conscripts to all carry plasma guns, or even plasma incinerators - but that's probably not what you mean.
I'm all for Primaris Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains to have an expanded arsenal, but saying "if I can kitbash it, I can have it" is a slippery slope. I'd like Primaris leaders to have the range of power weapons, hammers, pistols, and things like shields and stuff, but only so far as the normal Captains get.
Also, Nev, the Lieutenant doesn't get full access. No access to storm shields or combat shields, which sucks.
I miss the option for Primaris to have those options, but nothing is stopping you modelling it on, and the lack of it isn't enough for me to dislike the Primaris range. It is one of the first things I would fix though.
Considering that the Intercessor box has everything else that can be equiped with I do find it a little confusing that the power sword isn't on the sprue.
The Newman wrote: Considering that the Intercessor box has everything else that can be equiped with I do find it a little confusing that the power sword isn't on the sprue.
It's on Ultra and DA upgrade sprue. Which makes it it even more bizarre that you cannot give it to a Reiver sergeant as the same bit fits just fine.
And why. Religious zealotry harnassed by a landed class of warlords as the empire disintegrated and the once thriving middle classes fell into poverty from which one escape was soldiering in crusades against heretics in order to prop up an economy dependent on perpetual war and pillage and prone to infighting... Hmmmmm. Suspiciously like the current status quo and increasingly less resembling the newly geld age of Girlyman resurgent with his shiny new boy toys.
Besides that tech history does not begin with Rome...
If you're going to go that route you might as well look up the "Carolingian Renaissance". Although as a general rule I prefer to compare the Imperium to the Byzantine Empire, so perhaps the "Macedonian Renaissance" would be a better fit.
Both of these essentially are examples of societies in medieval period (Indeed, the rule of Charlemagne is typically seen as the event that separates the "dark ages" from the "middle ages") Where one figure was able to rise to power, inflict crushing defeats on their enemies and allowing the internal culture and prosperity of the their territories to flourish in ways unseen since Rome. (The 'dark ages" arnt dark because of the loss of technology, they are dark because relatively speaking, there is less information about the people and events that occurred, as well as the break down of civil society, codified laws and trade. Not that they disappeared entirely, but compared to what came before and after it was certainly a slump.)
Guilliman is essentially one of these figures, an initiator of an "Imperial renaissance" even in the face of the dark Imperium. Whats interesting is that he basically lets the Imperium initiate a renaissance it could have always produced save for how regressive and tradition bound its bureaucracy was/is. He and Cawl are still mary sues, but its not like cawl is doing any real innovating - sure he takes credit, but all of his tech is still inferior to what the Custodians use, and the idea of a project to build better astartes keeps turning up in the fluff, from Corax, to Fabulous Bill () to the cursed founding.
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
Heh... I'm.even trimming what little.bling there is off my primaris Definately going after the minimalist heavy armour on my dudes.
In fairness many people where complaining that the latest SM models had too much bling I think giving us the marines in just their armor and letting us bling them out is proably the right way to go. bling and tabards can be added on after the fact. eaither with bits and peices collected from various other kits, some green stuff (for the record I suck with green stuff myself so I'm NOT saying "ohh you can just do anything with green stuff) or from forge world. one area where GW was smart was making primaris heads and shoulders interchangeable with old marine heads and shoulders. those are invariably the easiest and most common pieces for customization)
Heh... I'm.even trimming what little.bling there is off my primaris Definately going after the minimalist heavy armour on my dudes.
When working on a 30k conversion, I had to carve an aquila off of a bolt pistol (as they are not displayed on marines of the era, barring the rare case). All the time I was chanting to myself “I’m not falling to chaos, I’m not falling to chaos...” It just felt so wrong to do it.
When working on a 30k conversion, I had to carve an aquila off of a bolt pistol (as they are not displayed on marines of the era, barring the rare case). All the time I was chanting to myself “I’m not falling to chaos, I’m not falling to chaos...” It just felt so wrong to do it.
I'll even be carving the Aquilas off the chest plates and legs. I did a bunch of starcraft marines a while back as my marine army so he and to match the aesthetic of that force.
I personally like blinged out SM much better. If you're going to have space knights, why not go all the way with relics and such. Sure it wouldn't work for 30k, but I find it perfect for 40k.
What are the primaris marines who look like they’re farting in mid-air? Those are so ridiculous. The rest look fine. I wouldn’t even be opposed to adding some into my Black Templars (who would be opposed, themselves, I believe).
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
Thank you!
Three of my favorite kits to kitbash from are the Devestator Squad, the Assault Squad and the Vanguard Squad. You can create so many interesting hand poses, and action poses with just those three kits!
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
Thank you!
Three of my favorite kits to kitbash from are the Devestator Squad, the Assault Squad and the Vanguard Squad. You can create so many interesting hand poses, and action poses with just those three kits!
Glad to hear! I feel I have barely scratched the surface with these kits. I want to buy them again and kitbash even more. I have not even started to use the spare hand poses yet as I get carried away with all the guns and CC weapons.
Crimson Devil wrote: Modellers aren't restricted by the contents of the box. Unless they have a malfunctioning imagination.
Thats a strange thing to state. Can modellers appreciate a good box of miniatures or are they then malfunctioning? Should we all just buy greenstuff and copper wire and make our minis from scratch to be considered worthy hobbyists?
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
I agree, but we still have old school Marines, maybe they'll get ridda em maybe they won't. by my way of thinking the best way to enchourage things is buy what you want, if we're still buying tons of old school marines for the modeling options (I know I am) GW will take note of that\. the horus heresy referance IMHO is a good one,Primaris Marines are proably designed to cash in on the popularity of the heresy, and thus use a similer approuch to warfare
You also never answered the question regarding the Aura Of Dark Glory vs the Sigil Of Corruption.
in fairness thats not a very good question considering that neither of those where modeling options and where just something you wrote down on your list that it had.
However the same logic applies. If the option is useless, it's useless. Counts-As happens a lot with Marine armies for that reason.
You are still weating the waac googles, in wich case a model is only as good as its rules...
For me the weapons play differently in the game. Flamers, meltas, plasmas, heavy bolters, fists, swords all act differently in the game wich is enough for me to use them all.
If the tournament optimal choice is to put nothing but plasmas on everything because of damage per points scenarios then the choice is there. That however is not how we all play the game. And if the rules was reduced to only one loadout option, it would make the game less compelling to me.
This is a good point, if the game is all about plasma and lascannon type weapons, then why not just reduce the overall cost of making the models and release kits with only these two weapons in them? I have played amazing games with load-outs and units others consider to be garbage rules wise, just by talking with my opponet and taming down the way we both play.
And no, to the person who said I am arguing from a modelers perspective, I am not. I commonly use gravity rifles on my marines, I often put power fists on Sargents, or master crafted bolters on veterans. You would never see a squad of US Marines in real life, all of them carrying the exact same weapon, with identical attachments, with identical skills. Min/Max only exists in the realm of fantasy.
Gitdakka wrote: If you buy a box of tacticals, assult marines and devastators, the options you get are staggering. You can equip your dudes with all kinds of guns and pointy sticks. You can make custom characters with jump packs, thunderhammers, claws, pistols, swords etc to infinitum. Bling dudes out with banners, nades, holy texts and a huge variety of shoulder pads and helmets.
Without waac googles marines are a modellers, collectors and gamers dream come true. I dont see what is compelling with primaris. Their kits dont combine and their rules and bits leave bare bones options for customization. Others may like it but to me they are nowhere near as compelling as the regular marines.
Thank you!
Three of my favorite kits to kitbash from are the Devestator Squad, the Assault Squad and the Vanguard Squad. You can create so many interesting hand poses, and action poses with just those three kits!
Glad to hear! I feel I have barely scratched the surface with these kits. I want to buy them again and kitbash even more. I have not even started to use the spare hand poses yet as I get carried away with all the guns and CC weapons.
A fun thing to do is to get hold of one of the Heavy Bolters from the MK3 marine kit. You can position it on the right hand in just about any way you would want to. Then you can have the marines' left hand holding just about anything, or performing any one of about 5 different hand signals!
danp164 wrote: I confess I haven;t read much on the Dark Imperium just caught the clip notes that Primaris were under construction for 10k years as a directive from the Girlyman to mech master Belly Crawl and now the king has returned the Primaris have been released to chapters as reinforcements, this is the sum total of my Dark Imperum Lore knowledge, I am ok with this... furious retconning.
From a model perspective however when compared to a regular human model Genestealer cultist for example they look bang on as a massive super soldier. My issue is I know have a squad of 10 intercessors (Thank you warhammer conquest) ad I thought I would add them to my small DW army (Just veteran 2 kill teams atm) but by comparison they make the standard veteran marines look.... um a little... off kilter? So i'm wondering ow others have dealt with it, Hope it grows on you? or just start a full Primaris SM army?
I ask because I'm going to be doing a slow grow league soon with a few new players and I'm wondering whether to double down on a mixed DW army or start full Primaris SM Army...
I've converted Primaris into my normal marines. I have Primaris TWC, Long fangs, blood claws, grey hunters etc. My army now is technically fully Primaris. I only use my old models for APOC games.
Togusa wrote: ... if the game is all about plasma and lascannon type weapons, then why not just reduce the overall cost of making the models and release kits with only these two weapons in them? ...
Because it isn't? I'd be sad if they pulled those options, I love my Heavy Bolters and Grav Cannons and for every game where I wished I had the extra AP on the LasCannon there's been another where I was glad I had the option to throw six or seven Frag rounds at a target. And in my experience the Plasma Gun (and Plasma Cannon, and all the other special weapons) aren't in a good place for the points right now.
Back on topic, the more I've played the Primaris marines the less the " legionnaire" unit setup bothers me. It does really make me want some more non-plasma, non-bolter based weapon options though. They're just begging for a medium range AutoCannon based unit and something that can make the Heavy Flamer profile work.
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
I was curious because on paper the Macro Plasma Blaster being cheaper that the Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon looks like a blatent mistake but in practice dakka mode is better than you'd expect, and I couldn't help wondering if someone had found the Flame Gauntlet had a similar "crap on paper, good in practice" thing going on that I'm just not seeing.
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
I was curious because on paper the Macro Plasma Blaster being cheaper that the Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon looks like a blatent mistake but in practice dakka mode is better than you'd expect, and I couldn't help wondering if someone had found the Flame Gauntlet had a similar "crap on paper, good in practice" thing going on that I'm just not seeing.
Nah played against them and even as RG they are easily avoided and still die like marines.
If you had an army that was pure melle damage as an opponent maybe.
timetowaste85 wrote: What are the primaris marines who look like they’re farting in mid-air?
Targets. I've always made it a point to kill crappy looking models 1st.
The only models that trump this targeting priority are those I learn my opponents really attached to.
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
flamer aggressors are the easy build option, and we wonder why they're crap?
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
flamer aggressors are the easy build option, and we wonder why they're crap?
I really don't think that's the reason. If it were, then certainly the stuff from the starter box would not be the flat out best options for both the Intercessors and the Hellblasters.
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
flamer aggressors are the easy build option, and we wonder why they're crap?
I really don't think that's the reason. If it were, then certainly the stuff from the starter box would not be the flat out best options for both the Intercessors and the Hellblasters.
heh true, more likely GW just, as always, over estimates the value of flamers.
(Speaking of weird profiles, has anyone found a reason to use Flame Gauntlet Aggressors? )
Maybe if you're playing Salamanders, they've that stratagem... but probably not even then. They're just way worse and not even cheaper. Another case of Primaris options not really being options because all except one choice are clearly terrible.
flamer aggressors are the easy build option, and we wonder why they're crap?
I really don't think that's the reason. If it were, then certainly the stuff from the starter box would not be the flat out best options for both the Intercessors and the Hellblasters.
heh true, more likely GW just, as always, over estimates the value of flamers.
I think flamers are probably in the worst spot they have ever been. At least in recent years. They used to be low cost and a reasonable counter to a number of things. Sure, what they did could also be mostly done with massed bolter fire (something marine lists can do almost casually) but they had jobs they did, and niches they filled.
Flamers these days don’t bring a lot to the table. 1d6 is not a replacement for the template. 8” range where 9” is a critical limitation on a number of deployment options. Just more S4 hits.
And the aggressors are probably the worst place to mount them. Slow and short ranged, but a bonus for standing stuff. The other build just gets so much more dakka, even the auto-hit of the flamers pales to raw statistics.
I could maybe see using one in a deathwatch squad. He’s mostly there for the buff. But the squad wants to be operating in tight rapid fire range, so he makes for decent charge deterrent.
For normal marines you could stick a squad in a repulsor and go fire bomb things. Expensive, not very efficient, fragile, but probably entertaining.
The wording would need some good templating, but basically something let it shoot overwatch fire against any successful charge regardless of range.
There are problems with implementing that into the rules, but with the right wording I don't think it would be insurmountable.
After a successful charge is made against a unit containing models with this weapon, you may immediately shoot with it as if it were the shooting phase. You must target the unit that just charged, but you may ignore whether any units are within 1" of each other for the purposes of the attacks
This wording does two interesting things that might make flamers viable:
1.
In some circumstances you get to shoot the flamer twice against the same charge. You are charging into a wall of fire after all.
2.
You get this bonus attack (though not the normal overwatch attack) when charged even if your unit is already engaged in melee. Which makes fully engaging a unit with flamers extremely difficult.
Crimson wrote: Just go full Primaris. The range is a bit limited right now, but they will be expanded in the future. If your minimarines are just two squads at this point, it is not a huge loss. I shelved a full, extensively converted marine army and switched to Primaris.
Honestly that's what I'm doing. I actually find painting Primaris a treat, especially when compared to how much of a chore I felt that the Oldstartes were to paint. Their design works well for a lot of tricks (like base > heavy drybrush your highlights > wash/glaze) to speed things up as well. I respect that they aren't for everyone, but they finally got me pulling the trigger on an Imperial Fists army to the point that I want at least a full unit of all the options (and the intent to slowly expand into a Primaris chapter in the future).
just a little surprised I guess
