Why do some people take what that woman said about the Emperor in Master of Mankind seriously? She was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to trash talk him. She was an enemy/rival of the Emperor.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which part? The part where she says he isn't human? Because lore has always suggested he is something more.
Yes. And DAOT tech. And the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant. When you look at him, you see what he wants you to see. Hence the "breathing" part.
Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.
What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.
He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which part? The part where she says he isn't human? Because lore has always suggested he is something more.
Yes. And DAOT tech. And the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant. When you look at him, you see what he wants you to see. Hence the "breathing" part.
No one has seen what the actual Emperor looks like, Sisters of Silence think he looks like a young man with a silent scream, because of all the anguish he's endured on behalf of mankind. Corax recognised the Emperor and the Emperor was surprised that he could recognise him, but what Corax saw was a person with no characteristics whatsoever. Vulken, Custodes, Magnus saw him as an old man etc.
The Emperor had seemed young in body, but his eyes were as old as anything Corax had ever seen. He was of no particular stature, neither tall nor short, fat nor thin. ‘You recognise me?’ the Emperor had asked when the two had withdrawn from the others. He had been clearly surprised by Corax’s reaction. ‘As if from an old dream, yes,’ Corax had replied. ‘I thought you would be taller.’ ‘Interesting,’ had been the Emperor’s brief reply. It was then that the Emperor had explained to Corax what he truly was – a primarch, one of twenty created by him to lead Mankind’s conquest of the stars. Corax had not doubted a word of it, the presence of the Emperor made everything else fall into place.
From all the lore on what the Emperor looks like is that his form is a contradiction. That's the only concrete evidence we can take from the lore.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Is it suggested that he makes you see what he wants via psychic powers?
Because if that is the case, alpha level blanks potentially see him in his true form...
That's why some people think the Sisters of Silence see the 'real' Emperor.
Though the Emperor isn't hampered by the Sisters as pariahs, so I don't believe that they can actually really see him. 'All' the Custodes see him as an old man so, I don't find it a coincidence that All the Custodes see one thing and all the Sisters see one thing.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.
What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.
He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.
Assuming she even believed what she said. She is an unreliable source. After all, she was an enemy/rival of the Emperor.
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Valdor blinked once. The first time she’d seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was
unnerving – to her it felt false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.
‘Terra,’ he said, ‘is a thirsty world.’
She knew, then. With those words, she knew which of her many crimes she was to die for. The one she’d
least expected.
A laugh, queasy and unwanted, tore iself from her throat. ‘Oh, you vile slave,’ she said, unable to keep
the sick grin from her face.
‘Other worlds suffer a similar thirst.’ The golden killer’s eyes had glassed over with an inhuman serenity
made all the more uncomfortable by the living intelligence shining behind it. ‘Yet none of them hold the
war-scarred, irradiated honour of being mankind’s cradle. This world is the beating heart of the Great
Crusade, minister. Do you know how many men, women and children now make their slow way back here
– to humanity’s first home? Do you know how many pilgrims wish only to see the ancestral Earth with
their own eyes? How many refugees flee their flawed and failing worlds now the veil of Old Night has
been lifted? Already it is said that unsettled land on the Throneworld is the most valuable commodity in
our nascent Imperium. But this is not so, is it? One resource is far more precious.’
She clutched the autopistol tighter as he spoke, breathing slowly and calmly. Even knowing she was to
die, even knowing she had no hope of drawing the weapon, the body was reluctant to surrender its
survival instincts. Instinct demanded she fight to live.
‘What I did,’ she said, ‘I did for my people.’
‘And now you will die for what you did for them,’ he said without malice.
‘For that alone?’ ‘For that alone. Your other treacheries are meaningless in my master’s eyes. Your cleansing pogroms.
Your trade in forbidden flesh. The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers
beneath the Jermanic Steppes. The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to the Pax Imperialis.
Your crimes of apostasy are nothing. You are dying for the sin of your harvester machines drinking the
Last Ocean.’
‘For stealing water?’ She felt like laughing again, and the sensation wasn’t a pleasant one. The laughter
was creeping up through her blood, seeking a release. ‘All of this… because I stole water?’
‘It pleases me that you understand the situation, Minister Zu.’ He inclined his head once more, with a
curious courtesy and another subtle purr of machine-muscles. ‘Goodbye.’
‘Wait. What of my son? What is his fate?’
‘He will be armed with silver, armoured in gold and burdened by the weight of ultimate expectation.’
Zu swallowed, feeling her skin crawl anew. ‘Will he live?’
The golden statue nodded. ‘If he is strong.’
In that moment, her trembles subsided. The fear bled away, leaving only naked defiance somewhere
between relief and hope. She closed her eyes.
‘Then he will live,’ she said.
There was a bang, throaty and concussive, and she was falling, drowning, choking in thunder. There was
pressure and heat and grey, grey, grey. And then mercifully there was nothing.
Nothing, at least, for her."
But from all that text, the part actually important to the conversation.
"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’ Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’ ‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’ She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just what kind of creature you serve?’ ‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’ ‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t even human.’ ‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed. ‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Lorgar makes the same obervation when he says Magnus 'looks the most like' the Emperor - specifically because of his 'face-dancing'.
He definitely appears differently to different people. Pariahs seem to not necessarily see what he wants them to see, but even then they're not all consistant with what they see (aside from a lack of inspiring golden glow)...
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Valdor blinked once. The first time she’d seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was
unnerving – to her it felt false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.
‘Terra,’ he said, ‘is a thirsty world.’
She knew, then. With those words, she knew which of her many crimes she was to die for. The one she’d
least expected.
A laugh, queasy and unwanted, tore iself from her throat. ‘Oh, you vile slave,’ she said, unable to keep
the sick grin from her face.
‘Other worlds suffer a similar thirst.’ The golden killer’s eyes had glassed over with an inhuman serenity
made all the more uncomfortable by the living intelligence shining behind it. ‘Yet none of them hold the
war-scarred, irradiated honour of being mankind’s cradle. This world is the beating heart of the Great
Crusade, minister. Do you know how many men, women and children now make their slow way back here
– to humanity’s first home? Do you know how many pilgrims wish only to see the ancestral Earth with
their own eyes? How many refugees flee their flawed and failing worlds now the veil of Old Night has
been lifted? Already it is said that unsettled land on the Throneworld is the most valuable commodity in
our nascent Imperium. But this is not so, is it? One resource is far more precious.’
She clutched the autopistol tighter as he spoke, breathing slowly and calmly. Even knowing she was to
die, even knowing she had no hope of drawing the weapon, the body was reluctant to surrender its
survival instincts. Instinct demanded she fight to live.
‘What I did,’ she said, ‘I did for my people.’
‘And now you will die for what you did for them,’ he said without malice.
‘For that alone?’ ‘For that alone. Your other treacheries are meaningless in my master’s eyes. Your cleansing pogroms.
Your trade in forbidden flesh. The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers
beneath the Jermanic Steppes. The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to the Pax Imperialis.
Your crimes of apostasy are nothing. You are dying for the sin of your harvester machines drinking the
Last Ocean.’
‘For stealing water?’ She felt like laughing again, and the sensation wasn’t a pleasant one. The laughter
was creeping up through her blood, seeking a release. ‘All of this… because I stole water?’
‘It pleases me that you understand the situation, Minister Zu.’ He inclined his head once more, with a
curious courtesy and another subtle purr of machine-muscles. ‘Goodbye.’
‘Wait. What of my son? What is his fate?’
‘He will be armed with silver, armoured in gold and burdened by the weight of ultimate expectation.’
Zu swallowed, feeling her skin crawl anew. ‘Will he live?’
The golden statue nodded. ‘If he is strong.’
In that moment, her trembles subsided. The fear bled away, leaving only naked defiance somewhere
between relief and hope. She closed her eyes.
‘Then he will live,’ she said.
There was a bang, throaty and concussive, and she was falling, drowning, choking in thunder. There was
pressure and heat and grey, grey, grey. And then mercifully there was nothing.
Nothing, at least, for her."
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She's not really an unreliable source on what she sees of the Emperor. Everyone sees him in a different way, how she sees him could likely have been planned. Her seeing something others dont is backed by the simple fact that everyone sees something different. Even then as far as most people know, with lost records and him first appearing to humanity in the mess after the dark age, her point of view is likely that of many. This super man showed up out of the blue in the wake of ruin and is able to smash anything at will. To most that would seem to suggest something of the Lost Age.
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Valdor blinked once. The first time she’d seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was
unnerving – to her it felt false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.
‘Terra,’ he said, ‘is a thirsty world.’
She knew, then. With those words, she knew which of her many crimes she was to die for. The one she’d
least expected.
A laugh, queasy and unwanted, tore iself from her throat. ‘Oh, you vile slave,’ she said, unable to keep
the sick grin from her face.
‘Other worlds suffer a similar thirst.’ The golden killer’s eyes had glassed over with an inhuman serenity
made all the more uncomfortable by the living intelligence shining behind it. ‘Yet none of them hold the
war-scarred, irradiated honour of being mankind’s cradle. This world is the beating heart of the Great
Crusade, minister. Do you know how many men, women and children now make their slow way back here
– to humanity’s first home? Do you know how many pilgrims wish only to see the ancestral Earth with
their own eyes? How many refugees flee their flawed and failing worlds now the veil of Old Night has
been lifted? Already it is said that unsettled land on the Throneworld is the most valuable commodity in
our nascent Imperium. But this is not so, is it? One resource is far more precious.’
She clutched the autopistol tighter as he spoke, breathing slowly and calmly. Even knowing she was to
die, even knowing she had no hope of drawing the weapon, the body was reluctant to surrender its
survival instincts. Instinct demanded she fight to live.
‘What I did,’ she said, ‘I did for my people.’
‘And now you will die for what you did for them,’ he said without malice.
‘For that alone?’ ‘For that alone. Your other treacheries are meaningless in my master’s eyes. Your cleansing pogroms.
Your trade in forbidden flesh. The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers
beneath the Jermanic Steppes. The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to the Pax Imperialis.
Your crimes of apostasy are nothing. You are dying for the sin of your harvester machines drinking the
Last Ocean.’
‘For stealing water?’ She felt like laughing again, and the sensation wasn’t a pleasant one. The laughter
was creeping up through her blood, seeking a release. ‘All of this… because I stole water?’
‘It pleases me that you understand the situation, Minister Zu.’ He inclined his head once more, with a
curious courtesy and another subtle purr of machine-muscles. ‘Goodbye.’
‘Wait. What of my son? What is his fate?’
‘He will be armed with silver, armoured in gold and burdened by the weight of ultimate expectation.’
Zu swallowed, feeling her skin crawl anew. ‘Will he live?’
The golden statue nodded. ‘If he is strong.’
In that moment, her trembles subsided. The fear bled away, leaving only naked defiance somewhere
between relief and hope. She closed her eyes.
‘Then he will live,’ she said.
There was a bang, throaty and concussive, and she was falling, drowning, choking in thunder. There was
pressure and heat and grey, grey, grey. And then mercifully there was nothing.
Nothing, at least, for her."
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
Never said it was reliable, I merely did a solid by giving the quote. Its unreliable in that she hates the Emperor, but the fact that she said he was a weapon from the DAOT must be a rumour that is said on Terra, we have no way of knowing if the rumour itself is reliable or not.
I don't see her as that unreliable of a source. She had little to no reason to lie to Valdor and his reaction, though very muted seems to indicate that he wasn't going to deny her accusations. Further we have the Primarchs to consider. They are explicitly not human, made whole cloth from science and warp energy. Whose to say that the emperor isn't something similar.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't see her as that unreliable of a source. She had little to no reason to lie to Valdor and his reaction, though very muted seems to indicate that he wasn't going to deny her accusations. Further we have the Primarchs to consider. They are explicitly not human, made whole cloth from science and warp energy. Whose to say that the emperor isn't something similar.
Why does she not have reason to lie? Just because she knew she was going to die.? People will say all sorts of lies even when they know they are going to die. She was an enemy of the Emperor.
I wonder if she knew the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant and that you see what the Emperor wants you to see when you look at him.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't see her as that unreliable of a source. She had little to no reason to lie to Valdor and his reaction, though very muted seems to indicate that he wasn't going to deny her accusations. Further we have the Primarchs to consider. They are explicitly not human, made whole cloth from science and warp energy. Whose to say that the emperor isn't something similar.
Why does she not have reason to lie? Just because she knew she was going to die.? People will say all sorts of lies even when they know they are going to die. She was an enemy of the Emperor.
I wonder if she the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant and that you see what the Emperor wants you to see when you look at him.
Yeah but why mention the DAOT at all, or that he is a weapon. That is a very random thing to lie about if there is no rumour in the first place. Calling him a monster or inhuman etc. would be more believable.
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
People will say things even when they know they will die. Do you realize that? Ted Bundy knew he was going to executed, but he still pleaded. Zo is untrustworthy. The Emperor is not DAOT.
PEOPLE WILL SAY ALL SORTS OF THINGS EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WILL DIE.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
Alright. I'll humor you. Even if she believed it, do you really think she is the only character in-universe to speculate about what the Emperor is? Many characters have wondered and speculated about what the Emperor is and why he is so powerful.
There's also the simpler possibility she was just wrong. She seems to have given the subject at least some thought as she has what she thinks are logical reasons for believing what she does. Doesn't make her right, of course.
Slipspace wrote: There's also the simpler possibility she was just wrong. She seems to have given the subject at least some thought as she has what she thinks are logical reasons for believing what she does. Doesn't make her right, of course.
If she believed it, then did she realize the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant and that you see what he wants you to see when you look at him?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
People will say things even when they know they will die. Do you realize that? Ted Bundy knew he was going to executed, but he still pleaded. Zo is untrustworthy. The Emperor is not DAOT.
PEOPLE WILL SAY ALL SORTS OF THINGS EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WILL DIE.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
Alright. I'll humor you. Even if she believed it, do you really think she is the only character in-universe to speculate about what the Emperor is? Many characters have wondered and speculated about what the Emperor is and why he is so powerful.
Im not denying that it happens so cool your jets turbo, talking in all caps and down to people when you're the one having issues understanding what is said gets you know where but on peoples ignore list. Further more saying "I'll humor you." in a blanket discussion, where you have no better ground for your argument than anyone else, just makes you look like an ass. If you look very carefully you'll see that I said ALOT, alot of people lie to get out of the deaths. I never said no one lies, I never said no one pleads when they are about to die and know they aren't getting out of it. Pleading is not the same as lying, you do know that yeah? Pleading was just an example I used in support of her character. She doesn't plead, she accepts the fact that she is going to die. That acceptance leads credence to the fact that she would not be lying as she would have no reason to. It accomplishes nothing, neither does telling what she sees as the truth to Valdor, because Valdor is created to be loyal and has his own interpretation of what the Emperor is.
I never said I believe she's the only one to speculate. Everyone speculates because no one knows for sure who or what he is, because he shows people what they want him to see plain and simple. He wants Ra to see him as a child Psyker in the cradle of civilization. He want's Arkhan Land to see him as a detatched cold emotionless machine of logic, the avatar of his Machine God. He wants the Primarchs to see him as a father. He misleads people with his powers, undoubtedly this would lead people to speculate what he is and what his powers are.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
People will say things even when they know they will die. Do you realize that? Ted Bundy knew he was going to executed, but he still pleaded. Zo is untrustworthy. The Emperor is not DAOT.
PEOPLE WILL SAY ALL SORTS OF THINGS EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WILL DIE.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
Alright. I'll humor you. Even if she believed it, do you really think she is the only character in-universe to speculate about what the Emperor is? Many characters have wondered and speculated about what the Emperor is and why he is so powerful.
Im not denying that it happens so cool your jets turbo, talking in all caps and down to people when you're the one having issues understanding what is said gets you know where but on peoples ignore list. Further more saying "I'll humor you." in a blanket discussion, where you have no better ground for your argument than anyone else, just makes you look like an ass. If you look very carefully you'll see that I said ALOT, alot of people lie to get out of the deaths. I never said no one lies, I never said no one pleads when they are about to die and know they aren't getting out of it. Pleading is not the same as lying, you do know that yeah? Pleading was just an example I used in support of her character. She doesn't plead, she accepts the fact that she is going to die. That acceptance leads credence to the fact that she would not be lying as she would have no reason to. It accomplishes nothing, neither does telling what she sees as the truth to Valdor, because Valdor is created to be loyal and has his own interpretation of what the Emperor is.
I never said I believe she's the only one to speculate. Everyone speculates because no one knows for sure who or what he is, because he shows people what they want him to see plain and simple. He wants Ra to see him as a child Psyker in the cradle of civilization. He want's Arkhan Land to see him as a detatched cold emotionless machine of logic, the avatar of his Machine God. He wants the Primarchs to see him as a father. He misleads people with his powers, undoubtedly this would lead people to speculate what he is and what his powers are.
Sorry for coming off as an ass. I just wanted to emphasize.
And the theory Zo has put forward IIRC is an old one, and frankly it makes PERFECT sense We know that during the DAOT experiments where done with both warptech and genetics, we know there's an entire vault on Mars full of abandoned technology that fuses mechanics and the warp. It's not a unreasonable idea that someone may have tried genetics and the warp. Look at all those closest to the Emperor, outside of Malcador, you have the Primarchs, geneticaly engineered super beings, the custodes, geneticly engineered super beings, is this the Emperor simply seeking perfectly loyal individuals custom crafted to his needs, or is it a despirate creation, despiratly seeking companionship like Frankenstein's Monster wished for a bride?
Ultimately we don't know, but the theory she advances is one worth considering on it's own merits, yes she is biased against him which means she's apt to be negitive in her views and we need to be careful in that regard, but she wasn't lying so much as theorizing, if she was LYING she'd have said something like "I can prove to you he's a weapon let lose" etc
BrianDavion wrote: And the theory Zo has put forward IIRC is an old one, and frankly it makes PERFECT sense We know that during the DAOT experiments where done with both warptech and genetics, we know there's an entire vault on Mars full of abandoned technology that fuses mechanics and the warp. It's not a unreasonable idea that someone may have tried genetics and the warp. Look at all those closest to the Emperor, outside of Malcador, you have the Primarchs, geneticaly engineered super beings, the custodes, geneticly engineered super beings, is this the Emperor simply seeking perfectly loyal individuals custom crafted to his needs, or is it a despirate creation, despiratly seeking companionship like Frankenstein's Monster wished for a bride?
Ultimately we don't know, but the theory she advances is one worth considering on it's own merits, yes she is biased against him which means she's apt to be negitive in her views and we need to be careful in that regard, but she wasn't lying so much as theorizing, if she was LYING she'd have said something like "I can prove to you he's a weapon let lose" etc
That doesn't make sense to me. She could very well have been lying.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
You don't understand. Yeah they will say whatever they want when they are about to die, but why specifically say he is from the DAOT and that he's a weapon. I don't think he is but I think there is credence to it because of its specificity. He was probably not created then but something happened for him to be linked to the DAOT as the Emperor never revealed himself to mankind. Sure maybe she just assumes that the DAOT is so 'magical in its technological advance' that she just equates him to that time. But still you can't just dismiss it because she's the enemy. Its like saying all enemies talk of are lies because they have opposing views etc.
BrianDavion wrote: And the theory Zo has put forward IIRC is an old one, and frankly it makes PERFECT sense We know that during the DAOT experiments where done with both warptech and genetics, we know there's an entire vault on Mars full of abandoned technology that fuses mechanics and the warp. It's not a unreasonable idea that someone may have tried genetics and the warp. Look at all those closest to the Emperor, outside of Malcador, you have the Primarchs, geneticaly engineered super beings, the custodes, geneticly engineered super beings, is this the Emperor simply seeking perfectly loyal individuals custom crafted to his needs, or is it a despirate creation, despiratly seeking companionship like Frankenstein's Monster wished for a bride?
Ultimately we don't know, but the theory she advances is one worth considering on it's own merits, yes she is biased against him which means she's apt to be negitive in her views and we need to be careful in that regard, but she wasn't lying so much as theorizing, if she was LYING she'd have said something like "I can prove to you he's a weapon let lose" etc
That doesn't make sense to me. She could very well have been lying.
... she could have been lying, but lying would imply she knew the Emperor's exact orgins and decided to say something differant instead. It's more realistic to assume she (like everyone else) does not know who or what the emperor is, and thus has developed her own theory on it, as she does not parituclarly support the emperor, her partiuclar theory tends to be a somewhat negitive one.
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)
That's what I think. It's like a classic sci-fi story - someone made an intelligent weapon and it went way out of control. The Emperor was made to fight Chaos and he expanded that to basically everyone.
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)
That's what I think. It's like a classic sci-fi story - someone made an intelligent weapon and it went way out of control. The Emperor was made to fight Chaos and he expanded that to basically everyone.
there's the old "we made a robot with the directive to protect us, and decided the best way to protect us was to rule us" story
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
in fact if we take his accepted (shaman gestalt) story she's right in a way, just missing some key bits, the emperor is in fact a weapon (one made to fight chaos)
But only the Emperor knows of his creation being a weapon if he fells that he is one. How would she or anyone find that out. I doubt it would be common knowledge.
I could see it being like the movie version of I Robot. He was originally given a narrow task, fight Chaos and eventually determined the best way to do that was take over humanity by force, break into the web way, pretend chaos isn't real in a misguided attempt to weaken it ( though this might have worked if he had at least let the primarchs known the truth) and eventually wipe out most alien species.
Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.
Manchu wrote: I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.
pretty much I don't know anyone who puts weight in it beyond "intreasting idea"
Manchu wrote: I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.
And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.
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Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.
Not really, they could have existed in the warp for a time before being reincarnated, also doesn't flow the same in the warp.
Manchu wrote: I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.
And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.
They only talked about doing that because of the cost it would take to subjugate them, plus is wasn't agreed upon.
"'Then why have you already sent warriors to the planet's surface?' asked Fayle with impressive
force of will. Most mortals were rendered imbecilic simply by standing in the presence of a
primarch, but Thaddeus Fayle spoke as though to a member of his own staff, and Julius felt his choler
rise at such boorish behaviour.
'I heard word that the Council of Terra had decided that subjugating the Laer would cost too many
lives and would take too long. Ten years was the figure I heard,' continued Fayle without pause.
'Wasn't there even talk of making them a protectorate of the Imperium?'
Julius saw the faint, but unmistakable signs of Fulgrim's annoyance at being so questioned, though
he must surely have known that virtually the entire expedition was aware of the assault on Atoll 19
and that he would face such interrogation.
Such was the price of cultivating openness within the expedition, Julius realised.
'There was indeed such talk,' said Fulgrim, 'but it was ill-founded and singularly failed to
appreciate the value of this planet to the Imperium. The attack underway is an attempt to gather a more
thorough appreciation of the war capability of the Laer.'"
Plus they didn't have any thoughts about, letting them live forever, they'd mostly come back after the crusade to wipe them out if they had agreed.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.
Not really, they could have existed in the warp for a time before being reincarnated, also doesn't flow the same in the warp.
Manchu wrote: I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.
And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.
They only talked about doing that because of the cost it would take to subjugate them, plus is wasn't agreed upon.
"'Then why have you already sent warriors to the planet's surface?' asked Fayle with impressive
force of will. Most mortals were rendered imbecilic simply by standing in the presence of a
primarch, but Thaddeus Fayle spoke as though to a member of his own staff, and Julius felt his choler
rise at such boorish behaviour.
'I heard word that the Council of Terra had decided that subjugating the Laer would cost too many
lives and would take too long. Ten years was the figure I heard,' continued Fayle without pause.
'Wasn't there even talk of making them a protectorate of the Imperium?'
Julius saw the faint, but unmistakable signs of Fulgrim's annoyance at being so questioned, though
he must surely have known that virtually the entire expedition was aware of the assault on Atoll 19
and that he would face such interrogation.
Such was the price of cultivating openness within the expedition, Julius realised.
'There was indeed such talk,' said Fulgrim, 'but it was ill-founded and singularly failed to
appreciate the value of this planet to the Imperium. The attack underway is an attempt to gather a more
thorough appreciation of the war capability of the Laer.'"
Plus they didn't have any thoughts about, letting them live forever, they'd mostly come back after the crusade to wipe them out if they had agreed.
They were originally going to conquer the Laer, not wipe them out. It shows the Emperor did not kill all aliens on sight.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
It's a possible theory, but it would mean he predates humanity by millions of years.
Not really, they could have existed in the warp for a time before being reincarnated, also doesn't flow the same in the warp.
Manchu wrote: I read her comments as speculation clearly motivated by hatred. Is there any reason to believe she would have some special insight into tye Emperor’s past? I think her words have about as much merit as a us speculating here on Dakka Dakka.
And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Seeing that the Emperor is so anti-xenos maybe the old ones created him to kill the orks when they were done killing the necrontyr. But when the Emperor found out about Chaos he focused to the bigger problem at hand, the Old ones probably didn't know about chaos because there were no humans and not enough Eldar maybe, to create the gods. Probably not but its fun to theorise.
Pg. 28 in Fulgrim shows the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquering them, initially. Not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their ideals and technology to be comparable to that of humanity, not because they were alien.
They only talked about doing that because of the cost it would take to subjugate them, plus is wasn't agreed upon.
"'Then why have you already sent warriors to the planet's surface?' asked Fayle with impressive
force of will. Most mortals were rendered imbecilic simply by standing in the presence of a
primarch, but Thaddeus Fayle spoke as though to a member of his own staff, and Julius felt his choler
rise at such boorish behaviour.
'I heard word that the Council of Terra had decided that subjugating the Laer would cost too many
lives and would take too long. Ten years was the figure I heard,' continued Fayle without pause.
'Wasn't there even talk of making them a protectorate of the Imperium?'
Julius saw the faint, but unmistakable signs of Fulgrim's annoyance at being so questioned, though
he must surely have known that virtually the entire expedition was aware of the assault on Atoll 19
and that he would face such interrogation.
Such was the price of cultivating openness within the expedition, Julius realised.
'There was indeed such talk,' said Fulgrim, 'but it was ill-founded and singularly failed to
appreciate the value of this planet to the Imperium. The attack underway is an attempt to gather a more
thorough appreciation of the war capability of the Laer.'"
Plus they didn't have any thoughts about, letting them live forever, they'd mostly come back after the crusade to wipe them out if they had agreed.
They were originally going to conquer the Laer, not wipe them out. It shows the Emperor did not kill all aliens on sight.
That's wrong, first of all the part in Fulgrim is about the council of terra, 'debating' about what to with them. And they were only debating on how to deal with them, it says nothing of planning to let the species live. The Emperor said nothing about the matter and the Emperor himself taught that xenos can't be allowed to live. Its well known lore that the Emperor ordered the extinction of xenos:
"The Angel looked at his primarch brother. ‘But that is not necessary. Vengeance is not necessary. There is xenos here, implacable alien menace that rejects any civilised intercourse with man-kind, and has greeted us with murder and murder alone. That suffices. As the Emperor, beloved by all, has taught us, since the start of our crusade, what is anathema to mankind must be dealt with directly to ensure the continued survival of the Imperium. Will you stand with me?’‘We will murder Murder together,’ Horus replied."
‘We should have known!’ Horus snapped.‘Therein lies the difference between our philosophy and that of the interex,’ Aximand said. ‘We cannot endure the existence of a malign alien race. They subjugate it, but refrain from annihilating it. Instead, they deprive it of space travel and exile it to a prison world.’‘We annihilate,’ said Horus. ‘They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?’Aximand rose to his feet. ‘I find myself with Ezekyle on this. Tolerance is weakness. The interex is admirable, but it is forgiving and generous in its dealings with xenos breeds who deserve no quarter.’‘It has brought them to book, and learned to live in sympathy,’ said Horus. ‘It has trained the kinebrach to—’ ‘And that’s the best example I can offer!’ Aximand replied. ‘The kinebrach. It embraces them as part of its culture.
‘And only a fool appeases aliens!’ Abaddon snarled. ‘What has this crusade taught us?’‘That we’re very good at killing things that disagree with us?’ suggested Torgaddon.Abaddon glared at him. ‘We know how brutal this cosmos is. How cruel. We must fight for our place in it. Name one species we have met that would not rejoice to see mankind vanished in a blink.’None of them could answer that.‘Only a fool appeases aliens,’ Abaddon repeated, ‘or appeases
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Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
My two pence worth. She’s as reliable as everyone who has described him. No more so or less so. As in they are all equally unreliable. As for her knowing she was to die, under British law that adds to her credibility not reduces it. Testimony of a dying person held in high regard now. But this is a story so who knows?
As for He being human? He has always been the “new man”. Something more than human. I like the idea of him being DOAT but it’s as credible as him being an old one or a master psyker or the combined souls of thousands of shaman. Her statements certainly cast a seed of doubt, would be cool in a way if he was AI or some such. We may never know.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
I think that if Beastmen, Ratlings, Ogryns, Squats and the Catpeople (Felionids?) listed in the back of 6th or 7th ed book, the Abhumans, are "human" enough, the Primarchs and the Emperor are also human. Space Marines are enhanced humans in the same way Captain America is still human - base genome with a little something extra.
I actually prefer the new fluff that he was a shaman spirit thing, but I do l like the mysticism and appeal of the "nothing special" origin
I imagine the Emperor is dual-natured. He is both fully human as well as fully "divine" in the typical 40k sense. Put it another way, he is probably something akin to a "naturally occuring" Daemon Prince.
And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.
Why does her being an enemy of the emperor make her any more of an unreliable source than an obedient subject of the emperor? It seems that her being an enemy would actually make her more likely, rather than less, to tell the truth about his real nature if she knew it as she has no obligation to preserve the lie which those who are loyal do.
And she was an enemy of the Emperor and thus an unreliable source.
Why does her being an enemy of the emperor make her any more of an unreliable source than an obedient subject of the emperor? It seems that her being an enemy would actually make her more likely, rather than less, to tell the truth about his real nature if she knew it as she has no obligation to preserve the lie which those who are loyal do.
She also has more reason to lie and try and plant doubt in the minds of his follower, as one last spiteful jab. In the same way we now question her truth and you say she had no reason to lie, perhaps she hoped Valdor would also ask why she would lie (and come to the same conclusion I did, to try and plant doubt)
Crimson wrote: It really doesn't come across as lying. She is probably saying what she believes to be the truth, though of course that's different from it actually being the truth.
It really doesn't come across as lying. She is probably saying what she believes to be the truth, though of course that's different from it actually being the truth.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.
But they were also grown with the Emperor's DNA. If you take the backstory of the shamans as canon, this would mean that the Emperor is also genetically human, and only his soul, conglomerated from the souls of the shamans, disinguishes him. This would also mean that the Primarchs are also genetically human, if not in full. They are also not close to Daemon Princes. A Daemon Prince is when a mortal soul is raised up and bonded the Warp becoming part of it like all Daemons are. If they were like Daemon Princes already they could not be made into princes by the Gods, which they can.
He didn't say primarch are daemon princes though...just that they are closer to those than humans which they def are. Even if humans would naturally grow as big with equal muscles they would still be like infants against pro wrestler. Primarch are so far beyond humans it's hard to imagine
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader are considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
I wouldn’t say zero chance. There’s not a zero chance of anything regarding the emperor. He “could” be anything. I like the shaman story. Which means he may well not be human. It’s like lots of terms in 40k, what does being human mean? Marines are genetically altered, so are they still humans or are they human+?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
Which is the entire point I was making in the first place. She was telling the truth as she knew it, you know, what he premitted her to know. I even said the exact same thing about it being a ploy to take Ra earlier in the thread.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.
What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.
He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.
See, I totally said that very thing earlier in the thread.
Andykp wrote: I wouldn’t say zero chance. There’s not a zero chance of anything regarding the emperor. He “could” be anything. I like the shaman story. Which means he may well not be human. It’s like lots of terms in 40k, what does being human mean? Marines are genetically altered, so are they still humans or are they human+?
I should have said close to zero chance. Sorry about that.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
Which is the entire point I was making in the first place. She was telling the truth as she knew it, you know, what he premitted her to know. I even said the exact same thing about it being a ploy to take Ra earlier in the thread.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.
What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.
He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.
See, I totally said that very thing earlier in the thread.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
Which is the entire point I was making in the first place. She was telling the truth as she knew it, you know, what he premitted her to know. I even said the exact same thing about it being a ploy to take Ra earlier in the thread.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.
What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.
He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.
See, I totally said that very thing earlier in the thread.
She still could have lying. People will say all sorts of things even when they know for an absolute fact they are going to die.
You're just talking in circles at this point because you and I have already ridden that horse. Other people have also made their opinions known about it.
We just have different views on whether or not she was lying, clearly I don't believe she was. She had no reason to lie, an there are no implications that she knows any further truth to misconstrue with a lie. She's saying what she believes to be the truth.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: You're just talking in circles at this point because you and I have already ridden that horse. Other people have also made their opinions known about it.
We just have different views on whether or not she was lying, clearly I don't believe she was. She had no reason to lie, an there are no implications that she knows any further truth to misconstrue with a lie. She's saying what she believes to be the truth.
And this is true because you say so? She COULD have been lying.
And who has said in this thread besides you? You are the only one, as far as I can see.
Im not saying its true because I say so, Im saying thats what I believe is the case. Like how you believe your point of view is the case. Which is why its pointless for us to continue to beat the dead horse, because we've been talking in circles.
You really dont see other posts saying they dont think she was lying? Really?
Also, you should note that I never specifically stated that they have voiced the same opinion, I have said that other people have also made their point on what we have been discussing. I did not say anyone had voice my same exact opinion. However, exactly one person did say something I had said earlier in the thread almost exactly the same way I said it. Its quoted above.
One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.
They're probably made of human DNA. Vat grown humans are still humans. And about the warp stuff, Psykers are still humans and channel warp stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote: That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Any source which says that Ollanius was anything else than a normal guardsman is obvious nonsense and can be safely ignored.
I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
The shaman backround was his story back in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
The shaman back round was his story back in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
It should be noted that origin may not be cannon any more.
One wrinkle to this is the Primarchs are almost certainly not human. We don't know what the Emperor is and space marines started as humans before being enhanced. The primarchs were never human, they were vat grown and likely filled with warp energy. They are far closer to demon princes than humans.
They're probably made of human DNA. Vat grown humans are still humans. And about the warp stuff, Psykers are still humans and channel warp stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething123456 wrote: That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Any source which says that Ollanius was anything else than a normal guardsman is obvious nonsense and can be safely ignored.
You said there is canon in 40k. You cannot just ignore it as it is part of the lore. If you don't fancy the Emperor being around before our time and being born in Anatolia, that is fine. But do not reject it. The Perpetuals are part of the lore.
He and the other Perpetuals are well written. But you probably have not even read the books about them.
Take this quote from Voltstagge on Reddit.
Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.
That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.
When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.
Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won
.
The Perpetuals are awesome. People like you probably have not read the books.
And Pius being made into a Perpetual makes more sense than a mortal guardsman, since there is no way a Guardsman would have ended up on Horus' ship. And they would have sent more Marines to Horus' ship, not Guardsmen.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Aye Drach'nyen and the Emperor are linked, I suspect the destiny is a little more hazy then that. I've learned to be cautious about prophecy in 40k, Angrel Ta's fate is a good example of why, everyone assumed he'd be killed by Sanguinius on Terra. turns out it wasn't the case.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Where precisely does it say they were going to wipe the Laer? They were originally going to conquer them. Please underline where it says they were going to wipe them out if it exists. Do you realize that "subjugation" means just controlling them? It also said they were originally going to "conquer" the Laer.
BrianDavion wrote: Aye Drach'nyen and the Emperor are linked, I suspect the destiny is a little more hazy then that. I've learned to be cautious about prophecy in 40k, Angrel Ta's fate is a good example of why, everyone assumed he'd be killed by Sanguinius on Terra. turns out it wasn't the case.
Agreed but seeing that the Emperor didn't contradict Drach'nyen it makes me assume that will be the case. Abaddon is the warmaster now and he does wield Drach'nyen so seems like it will end up happening, though whether the Emperor is trapped inside Drach'nyen or goes to the warp to become a god or reincarnate is another story all together.
No one has seen what the actual Emperor looks like, Sisters of Silence think he looks like a young man with a silent scream, because of all the anguish he's endured on behalf of mankind. Corax recognised the Emperor and the Emperor was surprised that he could recognise him, but what Corax saw was a person with no characteristics whatsoever. Vulken, Custodes, Magnus saw him as an old man etc.
This Sisters of Silence saw him as an old man too, of normal stature.
It is true that we don't really know what the emperor looks like as it has been stated in the lore he is fond of using psychic glamours and altering his appearance to show others what they want to see. But if Magnus (who was the most powerful psyker in existence besides the emperor himself), the Custodes (who share the Emperor's geneseed), and the Sisters of Silence (who nullify psychic powers) all agree on something, that is probably the best bet.
No one has seen what the actual Emperor looks like, Sisters of Silence think he looks like a young man with a silent scream, because of all the anguish he's endured on behalf of mankind. Corax recognised the Emperor and the Emperor was surprised that he could recognise him, but what Corax saw was a person with no characteristics whatsoever. Vulken, Custodes, Magnus saw him as an old man etc.
This Sisters of Silence saw him as an old man too, of normal stature.
It is true that we don't really know what the emperor looks like as it has been stated in the lore he is fond of using psychic glamours and altering his appearance to show others what they want to see. But if Magnus (who was the most powerful psyker in existence besides the emperor himself), the Custodes (who share the Emperor's geneseed), and the Sisters of Silence (who nullify psychic powers) all agree on something, that is probably the best bet.
His real form is probably that of a normal human with prehistoric Anatolian features and olive skinned.
And His talk with Perpetual Oll Persson really disproves anything DAOT. The Perpetuals are part of the lore.
I think as someone pointed out earlier in the thread Corax probably came the closest to seeing the real him. A perfectly average human being who wouldn't stand out in a crowd. The Emperor could literally be your next door neighbor.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I think as someone pointed out earlier in the thread Corax probably came the closest to seeing the real him. A perfectly average human being who wouldn't stand out in a crowd. The Emperor could literally be your next door neighbor.
Corax never saw him as an average human, he saw a contridiction, neither fat nor thin, not tall or small, nor young nor old.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
The shaman back round was his story back in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
Unless it\s been overwritten later it is still canon. Has there been clear statement opposite?
It should be noted that origin may not be cannon any more.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
No, I said he could not be DAOT tech because of his talk with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh. And whether you guys like it or not, the Perpetuals are part of the lore.
He is not DAOT tech, as Zo was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
No, I said he could not be DAOT tech because of his talk with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh. And whether you guys like it or not, the Perpetuals are part of the lore.
He is not DAOT tech, as Zo was an unreliable narrator being an enemy of the Emperor.
No you said he couldn't be DAOT because he was tied to Drach'nyn before that. Drach'nyn is destined to kill him but that has nothing to do with when he was born or created, the only time in the lore that Drach'nyn is mentioned in regards to the Emperor is the master of mankind novel.. I love the perpetual lore so I don't know where you are getting that from and I'm not arguing that the Emperor is from the DAOT, I'm arguing that there could be a reason why Za is connecting him to the DAOT. There is no lore that says the Emperor is tied to Drach'nyn or pre-history lore.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Where precisely does it say they were going to wipe the Laer? They were originally going to conquer them. Please underline where it says they were going to wipe them out if it exists. Do you realize that "subjugation" means just controlling them? It also said they were originally going to "conquer" the Laer.
Because they were ordered to exterminate the Laer. The administrators of the council of Terra only suggested not wiping them out, they decided against that, deciding to wipe them out which they did...
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun."
When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
Or Noah, He likes kitten, so he's obviously an animal lover and the way he treats humans also has a great flood feth all humans vibe.
Also, it could be possible that the emperor is both a product of the DAoT and a creation of ancient shamans.
Ancient shamans create emperor, but he is later killed or dies. Then he is resurrected/recreated in the DAoT through a combination of technology and sorcery, intended to be used as a weapon and imprinted with the goal of humanities supremacy and survival.
This way you could have the Emperor of old be more human and have his humanity be stripped away by his resurrection through technology and his drive and vision for humanity is as a result of incredibly powerful technological conditioning of his mind during that process..
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
no, assuming what we know of his orgins in Master of Mankind is true, Drachyen was created when Cain murdered Able, but the emperor was born considerably later of another man whose brother killed him
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
The emperor could be Cain.
no, assuming what we know of his orgins in Master of Mankind is true, Drachyen was created when Cain murdered Able, but the emperor was born considerably later of another man whose brother killed him
I just had an idea for Goldilocks origin... Necrons(or C'tan)!
Think about it, 3rd ed Necron dex mentions that someone tinkered with humanity at some point for nefarious purposes.
So, the humanity is modified so shamans/Emps/perpetuals eventually emerge - inevitably one or more of these immortal beings will eventually become xenophobic idiots who think that they have the universe all figured out and know everything better that any one else and as such think themselves fit to rule the universe.
Since such creatures are made from the meek humanity they aren't capable enough to actually take over the universe and having lived too long has left these beings with a superiority complex which prevents them from seeing that what they want is impossible. In their endless bid to get what they want they only manage to sow discord in the galaxy, creating more and more mistrust, hate and violence - thus hindering the chance that the species of the galaxy would unite and have any chance to stand up against the Necron(or C'tan), which the Eldar admit to be the only way for the galaxy to survive against Necrons.
Think about it, 3rd ed Necron dex mentions that someone tinkered with humanity at some point for nefarious purposes.
So, the humanity is modified so shamans/Emps/perpetuals eventually emerge - inevitably one or more of these immortal beings will eventually become xenophobic idiots who think that they have the universe all figured out and know everything better that any one else and as such think themselves fit to rule the universe.
Since such creatures are made from the meek humanity they aren't capable enough to actually take over the universe and having lived too long has left these beings with a superiority complex which prevents them from seeing that what they want is impossible. In their endless bid to get what they want they only manage to sow discord in the galaxy, creating more and more mistrust, hate and violence - thus hindering the chance that the species of the galaxy would unite and have any chance to stand up against the Necron(or C'tan), which the Eldar admit to be the only way for the galaxy to survive against Necrons.
Necrons did Emprah!
No Necrons had awoken during Earths biological evolution, so they probably got samples from humans and noticed it had been tinkered with, I doubt it was them. No one knows if the necrons waking up is designed for this time though, it would seem they'd all wake up at once if their tech is so good, so they might just sleep past the tyranids eating everything or the orks having the ultimate fun. Or the Whole galaxy might end up like the eye and the great rift as Chaos plans or the tau might make it 10 light years from their own system lol
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
The Emperor did not exist during the first murder, he was born to a family in a village which is fact as he showed RA, it was way after as they had agriculture, dogs had been domesticated, they had mud huts, clay pots. they also had bronze swords etc so it was the bronze age 3000BC-1200BC, at the time of his childhood. The first murder would be when humans first branched off from homo-erectus, 200,000 - 300,000 years before the Emperor was born. Again the Emperor is in no way whatsoever tied to Drach'nyn, its just destined to kill him.
“The boy who would be king held his father’s skull in his hands. He turned it slowly, running his fingertips across the contours of skinless bone. A thumb, still browned with field dirt, traced across the blunt ivory pegs of the gap-toothed death smile. He lifted his eyes to the stone shelf where the other skulls sat in silent vigil. They stared into the hut’s gloomy confines, their eyes replaced by smooth stones, their faces restored with the crude artistry of clay. It was the boy’s place to remake his father’s face in the same way, sculpting the familiar features with wet mud and slow swipes of a flint knife, then letting the skull bake dry in the high sun. The boy thought he might use sea shells for the eyes, if he could barter with the coastal traders for two that were smooth enough. He would do this soon. Such things were tradition. First he needed answers. He turned the skull once more, circling his thumb around the ragged hole broken into the bone. He didn’t need to close his eyes and meditate to know the truth. He didn’t need to pray for his father’s spirit to tell him what happened. He simply touched the hole in his father’s head, and at once he knew. He saw the fall of the bronze knife from behind; he saw his father fall into the mud; he saw everything that had happened leading to this moment in time. The boy who would be king rose from the floor of his family’s hut and walked out into the settlement, his father’s skull clutched in one hand. Mud-brick huts lined both sides of the river. The wheat-fields to the east were a patchwork sea of dark gold beneath the eye of the setting sun. The village was never truly quiet, even after the day’s work was done. Families talked and laughed and fought. Dogs barked for attention and whined for food. The wind set the scrubland trees to singing, with the hiss of leaves and the creak of branches forming their eternal song. A ragged dog growled as the boy passed, yet fled yelping when he gave it no more than a glance. A carrion bird, hunchbacked and evil of eye, cried out above the village."
Tonnes of evidence showing that he lived during the bronze age so actually after the rogue trader 8,000 BC.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
My bad I got you mixed up with someone else in a massive bubble of quoted text. No need to attack DC over reading comp.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
I can see how you get the implication that he's tied to Drach through his father's murder and his murder of his uncle being what spurred him on to create an Empire, I'm not sure I am 100% behind that as there's been countless murders over the years where someone probably decided they needed to do something for the good of others. But it very well could be part of what tied them together.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
I fail to see how "conquering" means wiping them out. Sorry if I came off as an ass.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
It's apparently not as explicit as I thought but my reading had him and the murder that drove him to empire tied rather closely to Drach, the emperor going off to murder someone because someone was murdered and tying himself to an ancient demon in ancient fertile crescent is unlikely to happen during the DAOT. I'll have to re-read it, but it seemed like a very intentional tie in to my reading of it. I mean, how much earlier are we going in history to get the cain and able story? How do we know that wasn't what happened and the emperor was ensuring it was written down as otherwise we'd have little mechanism to do so? Because that was the implication I had been under since reading it.
Screw it, I'm grabbing my copy of that book. Maybe I'm reading in too far, but regardless I doubt it he was a product of DAOT, I could believe it was a product of him, but not the otherway around. Wouldn't blame anyone in universe of believing he was a product of it either, but
The Emperor did not exist during the first murder, he was born to a family in a village which is fact as he showed RA, it was way after as they had agriculture, dogs had been domesticated, they had mud huts, clay pots. they also had bronze swords etc so it was the bronze age 3000BC-1200BC, at the time of his childhood. The first murder would be when humans first branched off from homo-erectus, 200,000 - 300,000 years before the Emperor was born. Again the Emperor is in no way whatsoever tied to Drach'nyn, its just destined to kill him.
“The boy who would be king held his father’s skull in his hands. He turned it slowly, running his fingertips across the contours of skinless bone. A thumb, still browned with field dirt, traced across the blunt ivory pegs of the gap-toothed death smile. He lifted his eyes to the stone shelf where the other skulls sat in silent vigil. They stared into the hut’s gloomy confines, their eyes replaced by smooth stones, their faces restored with the crude artistry of clay. It was the boy’s place to remake his father’s face in the same way, sculpting the familiar features with wet mud and slow swipes of a flint knife, then letting the skull bake dry in the high sun. The boy thought he might use sea shells for the eyes, if he could barter with the coastal traders for two that were smooth enough. He would do this soon. Such things were tradition. First he needed answers. He turned the skull once more, circling his thumb around the ragged hole broken into the bone. He didn’t need to close his eyes and meditate to know the truth. He didn’t need to pray for his father’s spirit to tell him what happened. He simply touched the hole in his father’s head, and at once he knew. He saw the fall of the bronze knife from behind; he saw his father fall into the mud; he saw everything that had happened leading to this moment in time. The boy who would be king rose from the floor of his family’s hut and walked out into the settlement, his father’s skull clutched in one hand. Mud-brick huts lined both sides of the river. The wheat-fields to the east were a patchwork sea of dark gold beneath the eye of the setting sun. The village was never truly quiet, even after the day’s work was done. Families talked and laughed and fought. Dogs barked for attention and whined for food. The wind set the scrubland trees to singing, with the hiss of leaves and the creak of branches forming their eternal song. A ragged dog growled as the boy passed, yet fled yelping when he gave it no more than a glance. A carrion bird, hunchbacked and evil of eye, cried out above the village."
Tonnes of evidence showing that he lived during the bronze age so actually after the rogue trader 8,000 BC.
I prefer reading the shaman origin from the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader. And Perpetual Oll Persson.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
Manchu wrote: Any theory that speculates the Emperor to be non-human seems presumptively unconvincing to me.
Yeah. I think conceptually it is important that he is human (at leas in the same way as Space Marines and Primarchs are 'human'.) So superhuman certainly, but still human.
As much as I like a lot of the old fluff, I am not that keen on the shaman backstory and the Emperor being crazy old. So some sort of DAOT origin would be fine by me. Though my preferred origin for him that he was originally nothing super special. 'Just' a really powerful psyker from the Age of Strife, who used his powers to become the most successful warlord of that era. He was obviously keen on enhanced superhumans, (perhaps he found some DAOT tech relating to such during his early conquests) and probably used such technologies on himself, but it doesn't mean that he started out as a superhuman.
That's nice, but the Emperor talking with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh really disproves anything DAOT.
Zero chance he is from the of Strife.
The shaman origin and other lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader is considered to be Games Worshop's best work.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him. - Mark of Calth
pm713 wrote: What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?
-snip-
Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.
She has a point though. She's right about the not human part and isn't far off with the idea of a weapon nobody controls anymore. But that's just my opinion.
Exactly, there isn't enough information to conclude anything from what she said, with any certainty. Just dismissing it because she hates the emperor, is not persuasive in my opinion. It comes down to either she's lying which Is the least likely, because if she's lying what does she 'actually' know about the Emperor, because what does that lie serve anyway. Why would she make something like that up, something that specific, linking him to the DAOT. She most likely just equates the Emperor to the DOAT, or its a rumour that she has heard. Maybe its a rumour created to make the Emperor seem like he's just a weapon but that seems the unlikely. Its probably a rumour held by most people that equate him to that time, that she is using to scorn him before her death.
You're quote does not contradict what I said about the Laer. They were NOT going to wipe them out.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.
Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.
That may be and she was indeed telling the truth as she knew it. However, the topic that is being discussed is that this is the truth the Emperor permitted to know, because he can shape perceptions of himself at will. He made her into an enemy to have an excuse to take Ra Endymion into the Custodes.
People will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they will die.
Yea it does, they only suggested not wiping them out and you said the Emperor was not anti-xenos because of it which my quotes show you are wrong.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: I'm assuming this thread full of enough spoilers that I'm not wrapping this.
What's funny is this all conviently ignores the world shakingly powerful demon that's out to kick Big E's throne in that happens to be tied to his own actions in pre-history, which easily pushes over the DAOT origin, and given the sheer time of it easily calls into question the old shaman lore. Unless they did that back before humans had bothered to kill each other out of sheer malice at least. Or we're tossing out some much larger portions of the same book. Unless i'm misremembering which book the whole murder begets murder thing happened in.
The emperor's origins are only known to him, if anyone, everyone else is at best trusting his word and ask the thunder warriors how that worked out for them. Dude had 40k years experience back in 30k, the human experience is kinda far detached from him at best, but nothing says another human living that long couldn't have managed the same. It's just that the rest of the perpetuals are freaking worthless.
She's just saying what she thinks he is, which is a rather logical guess clearly, but does seem to be impossible with lore outside of this.
Which actions is Drach'nyen supposed to be tied to? Because the first Murder was a reference to Cain and Able. I ask cause I legitimately don't recall anything early on that specifically tied them together.
Also "this all" isn't what the whole thread has been about. Some people have said he could be from the Dark Age, others say he isn't but he wanted at least one specific person to believe he was, others refute even that.
Drach'nyen is destined to end the Emperors life. He meets the Emperor in the webway and tells him so, The Emperor tells him that maybe so but that it isn't that time in which he kills him. Its in the master of mankind novel.
Yes I know that much, but the OP implied that the Emperor couldnt be DoAT Tech because he was tied to Drach'nyen by his pre-history origins.
Which pre-history origins specifically tie him to Drach'nyen? Because the daemon was born of Cain's murder of Able, nothing that the Emperor did. DoAT Weapon, pre-history born or born in the 21st Century none of that specifically ties him to Drach'nyen. Him being the Emperor ties him to the daemon.
Well he's wrong, its only tied to him in that its destined to kill him, it existed far before the Emperor.
Did I forget to say sorry if I came off an an ass? Sorry if I did.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
I must have misunderstood him.
And Fulgrim made that decision NOT because they were aliens, but because they held their beliefs an technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
I must have misunderstood him.
And Fulgrim made that decision NOT because they were aliens, but because they held their beliefs an technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Well to a degree it was both because they were Aliens and they had technology and beliefs superior to humanity.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly
endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
I must have misunderstood him.
And Fulgrim made that decision NOT because they were aliens, but because they held their beliefs an technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Well to a degree it was both because they were Aliens and they had technology and beliefs superior to humanity.
Fulgrim said he was going to wipe them because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity. Nowhere does it say because they were aliens.
Onething123456 wrote: When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension.
Wow, "When did I say he was tied to Drach'nyen? And you're does not say what you want it to. It says "conquering", nothing about wiping them out. Don't make a fool of yourself. Reading comprehension" and you say I have poor reading comprehension lol Ever heard of proper grammar or cogent arguments and logic?
You've been proven wrong with most of what you have said in this thread and not just by me lol
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour. Fulgrim had rejected such a notion out of hand, famously saying, 'Only humanity is perfect and for an alien race to hold its own ideals and technology as comparable to ours is profane. No, the Laer deserve only extinction.' And so the Cleansing of Laeran was begun." See where it says extinction and cleansing, and that's exactly what happened, and you say I have poor reading comprehension.
And the Emperor said nothing about Laer, you are trying to suggest he is not anti-xenos and the quotes show that he was and it was a directive, which is basic HH lore and instead of admmitting you are wrong you are trying to play semantics but you are incontrovertibly wrong.
As for Drach'nyn my bad wrong person.
Now you can admit that you are wrong and then you won't feel the need to be uncivil, because I'm great at being an donkey-cave, better than most.
Fulgrim said that AFTER the council of Terra thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them. You have poor reading comprehension. Your quote does not say what you want it to. The Council of Terra was originally going to conquer them.
"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour.
What difference does it make that Fulgrim said that adter the council of Terra spoke, but he told the ADMINISTRATORS of terra no. The administrators of terra suggested not wiping them out, it was only a SUGGESTION, one that Fulgrim refused. The council of terra TALKED about subjugating them, because of the TOLL it would take, not because the Imperium or the Emperor weren't anti-xenos, but they ruled against it. You have absurdly bad reading comprehension and its mind boggling that you are trying to tell anyone that they have poor reading comprehension. You have been proved without a doubt that you are wrong and you are completely oblivious to it. Yeah you can conquer and still wipe an enemy out. Hitler conquered Poland and then see'd to wiping the Jews out. Jesus... You have been proven wrong and now you are trying to argue about definitions of words. I already posted where it was ordered to wipe them out and THEY DID JUST THAT, THEY WIPED THEM OUT.
So? The point is the Council of Terra NEVER contemplated wiping them out, but originally wanted to conquer them. It was Fulgrim who wanted to wipe them NOT because they were aliens but because they held their beliefs adnd technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Now you are making balls-out assumptions about the Council of Terra wanting to them out. Prove I am wrong. You are assuming they wanted to wipe them out with no proof.
I have not been proven wrong. The burden is on you to prove they were ORIGINALLY going to wipe them out. I am right. You are wrong. Absolutely nowhere does it even hint they were going to wipe them out at first.
He hasn't at all been arguing that they were originally going to wipe them out though has he? He was saying they wanted to subjugate them, to make them a Protectorate of sorts. This whole time he's been saying thats what they wanted and Fulgrim made the decision to wipe them out.
I must have misunderstood him.
And Fulgrim made that decision NOT because they were aliens, but because they held their beliefs an technology to be comparable to that of humanity.
Well to a degree it was both because they were Aliens and they had technology and beliefs superior to humanity.
Fulgrim said he was going to wipe them because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity. Nowhere does it say because they were aliens.
But the implication there is; that he would have let aliens live, if they didn't have beliefs comparable to Humanity. Though, because they were Xenos and they did have beliefs comparable to humanity they had to die. So they were killed as a result of them being Xenos, it was just part of the whole equation.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also, it could be possible that the emperor is both a product of the DAoT and a creation of ancient shamans.
Ancient shamans create emperor, but he is later killed or dies. Then he is resurrected/recreated in the DAoT through a combination of technology and sorcery, intended to be used as a weapon and imprinted with the goal of humanities supremacy and survival.
This way you could have the Emperor of old be more human and have his humanity be stripped away by his resurrection through technology and his drive and vision for humanity is as a result of incredibly powerful technological conditioning of his mind during that process..
I am not going to believe Zo. She was clearly motivated by hatred. And she was an enemy of the Emperor.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also, it could be possible that the emperor is both a product of the DAoT and a creation of ancient shamans.
Ancient shamans create emperor, but he is later killed or dies. Then he is resurrected/recreated in the DAoT through a combination of technology and sorcery, intended to be used as a weapon and imprinted with the goal of humanities supremacy and survival.
This way you could have the Emperor of old be more human and have his humanity be stripped away by his resurrection through technology and his drive and vision for humanity is as a result of incredibly powerful technological conditioning of his mind during that process..
I am not going to believe Zo. She was clearly motivated by hatred. And she was an enemy of the Emperor.
Okay but you can't just discount everything based on that. Besides who else would you listen to?
Okay but you can't just discount everything based on that. Besides who else would you listen to?
Yeah. I think Emperor's enemies are actually more likely to tell the truth than his lackeys, who are completely brainwashed by him.
They are just as likely to lie. And not only is there no reason to believe she has special insight into the Emperor's past, she is biased and unreliable source.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also, it could be possible that the emperor is both a product of the DAoT and a creation of ancient shamans.
Ancient shamans create emperor, but he is later killed or dies. Then he is resurrected/recreated in the DAoT through a combination of technology and sorcery, intended to be used as a weapon and imprinted with the goal of humanities supremacy and survival.
This way you could have the Emperor of old be more human and have his humanity be stripped away by his resurrection through technology and his drive and vision for humanity is as a result of incredibly powerful technological conditioning of his mind during that process..
I am not going to believe Zo. She was clearly motivated by hatred. And she was an enemy of the Emperor.
Okay but you can't just discount everything based on that. Besides who else would you listen to?
Who else would I listen to? The Perpetuals. The Emperor talked with Perpetual Oll Persson outside of Nineveh. And don't discount Perpetual Oll Persson just because you have a hate boner for him. You would basically be saying "I hate it, so it doesn't count.", which is ridiculous. The Perpetuals are part of the lore whether you like it or not.
And the Perpetuals are well-written. That quote below is from Voltstagge on Reddit. Perpetual Oll Persson as a normal guardsman never made sense in the first place.
Yeah, he's been all around. In every war, there is Ollanius, squatting in the trenches, crawling through the dirt with every other soldier. Occasionally he is in a famous location, but never the star of the show, just a background character. Someone in his position could easily play their cards right and end up being a general, a billionaire, or avoid the war altogether. But not Oll. He is the common soldier, one of countless millions. It's in his name after all: Oll Perrson >> All Persons.
That is part of the reasons I am in favour of him being changed to a perpetual rather being than an ordinary soldier: because he is still the ordinary man, just an old one. He knows that when Horus kills him he won't come back, but he throws himself in the line of fire anyway. Just like he did at Calth. Just like he did in the Great Crusade. Just like he did at Verdun. Just like he did with Jason and the Argonauts.
When Horus kills Oll, he is not just killing a man: he is killing Humanity's history. Even if the Emperor was stuck on the Throne, Ollanius would still be there. Someone would be left to remember when humanity was better, before they succumbed to the grim darkness of the far future. He could have given up his dream of an ordinary life and finally take charge: he wouldn't be the Emperor, but he understood the Emperor's dream. But Ollanius died, and now there is no one left to remember what humanity once was and could be again. The Emperor's promise of a Golden Age died with him.
Even Guilliman can't fix it; he wasn't there for the Age of Technology, or the moon landing, or the years of peace when humanity spread across the stars. Oll Perrson was there, but he is dead. With his death humanity can't go back to before they were trapped by suspicion, hatred, and zealotry. So much was lost with him, never to be recovered. When Horus kills Ollanius, he kills humanity. That is why the Emperor finally kills Horus: because he knows at that moment the dream is dead. Chaos won.
Damn chill out man. I don't have a hate boner for Oll. I dislike the Perpetuals in general because I find them boring and a downgrade from their prior lore that's all.
Oll isn't reliable either. He's thousands of years old. Peoples memories start to go far before that point.
pm713 wrote: Damn chill out man. I don't have a hate boner for Oll. I dislike the Perpetuals in general because I find them boring and a downgrade from their prior lore that's all.
Oll isn't reliable either. He's thousands of years old. Peoples memories start to go far before that point.
A lot of people hate the Perpetuals. Many others don't, but yeah.
He is completely reliable. He sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. He vividly remembers fighting at 73 Easting, and even remembers the name of the Iraqi soldier he fought against.
His talk with the Emperor outside of Nineveh is proof. No two ways about it.
And I have also read a lot of HH books. The vast majority of aliens found enslaved humanity. Almost all were hostile.
Plus, the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate on pg. 28 in Fulgrim instead of conquering them (conquering them, not wiping them out). And Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's, not because they were aliens.
pm713 wrote: Damn chill out man. I don't have a hate boner for Oll. I dislike the Perpetuals in general because I find them boring and a downgrade from their prior lore that's all.
Oll isn't reliable either. He's thousands of years old. Peoples memories start to go far before that point.
A lot of people hate the Perpetuals. Many others don't, but yeah.
He is completely reliable. He sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. He vividly remembers fighting at 73 Easting, and even remembers the name of the Iraqi soldier he fought against.
His talk with the Emperor outside of Nineveh is absolute proof. No two ways about it.
Is he? For all we know every single one of those is wrong. There's nothing proving he remembers all that accurately or that he was even there and he could just be a nutter who thinks he did all that.
pm713 wrote: Damn chill out man. I don't have a hate boner for Oll. I dislike the Perpetuals in general because I find them boring and a downgrade from their prior lore that's all.
Oll isn't reliable either. He's thousands of years old. Peoples memories start to go far before that point.
A lot of people hate the Perpetuals. Many others don't, but yeah.
He is completely reliable. He sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. He vividly remembers fighting at 73 Easting, and even remembers the name of the Iraqi soldier he fought against.
His talk with the Emperor outside of Nineveh is absolute proof. No two ways about it.
Is he? For all we know every single one of those is wrong. There's nothing proving he remembers all that accurately or that he was even there and he could just be a nutter who thinks he did all that.
He's as reliable as the woman is.
What a bunch of bs. Now you are just looking for idiotic excuses. How about this? In Mark of Calth, when Perpetual Oll Persson goes back in time to Verdun using the Daemon blade, he finds a journal he made while fighting in the war 30,000 years earlier. Satisfied? Case closed.
Perpetual Oll Persson is older than recorded human history.
ALL of his memories are real.
If that's not enough then how about Damon Prytanis being recruited after WW2?
pm713 wrote: Damn chill out man. I don't have a hate boner for Oll. I dislike the Perpetuals in general because I find them boring and a downgrade from their prior lore that's all.
Oll isn't reliable either. He's thousands of years old. Peoples memories start to go far before that point.
A lot of people hate the Perpetuals. Many others don't, but yeah.
He is completely reliable. He sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, fought at Verdun, 73 Easting, and so on. He vividly remembers fighting at 73 Easting, and even remembers the name of the Iraqi soldier he fought against.
His talk with the Emperor outside of Nineveh is absolute proof. No two ways about it.
Is he? For all we know every single one of those is wrong. There's nothing proving he remembers all that accurately or that he was even there and he could just be a nutter who thinks he did all that.
He's as reliable as the woman is.
Oh my fething god.
Actually, smartass, there IS.
Voices chirp and snigger. Oll hears the voices of people he knows on the wind, and realises they are lies. He hears the voices of people he has not seen alive in thirty thousand years. Lies. Lies. He hears John’s laugh. He hears Pascal at Verdun, asking for a light. He hears Gaius on the Wall, cursing the rain and praising the virtues of Galician girls. He hears Commander Valis whisper the name of a forgotten god as they both flinch from the nuclear light blooming across the Panpacific horizon. He hears a man question the quality of bronze stirrups in strongly accented Scythian. He hears Zaid Raheem, pinned in his burning T-62, begging to die. He hears the shocktroopers around him moan as the officer tells them that their objective will be the Brumman Hives. He hears Iason and Orfeus, singing together. He hears Lieutenant Winslow dictating his will the night before Copenhagen. He hears Private Labella whistling as she fries beans and eggs the morning after the Socal Basin fell. He hears his son, five days old, crying lustily in his crib, the day that the Norsemen landed. As if he knew, five days old and knew what was coming.
As you can see, He vividly remembers the names of every one of the people he fricking met throughout history in the quote above.
Next you are going to say Damon Prytanis never fought at Iwo Jima, never assassinated MLK, RFK or anything of the sort. Are you in denial? Just because you don't fancy the Perpetuals doesn't mean you can just disregard everything they do.
You know what? There is jackcrap proving any of what you say is true. Now you are just looking for idiotic excuses to deny it.
The line represents my point and the 0 represents you.
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You're really confused about what I'm saying and why. My point is that you can't just ignore what Zo says because she hates the Emperor while also holding up Perpetuals as paragons of fact and truth.
pm713 wrote: The line represents my point and the 0 represents you.
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You're really confused about what I'm saying and why. My point is that you can't just ignore what Zo says because she hates the Emperor while also holding up Perpetuals as paragons of fact and truth.
I know for a fact that Perpetual Oll Persson in Mark of Calth going back in time to Verdun using the Daemon blade and finding a journal he made during the war is proof.
And the Perpetuals are a hell of a fething lot more reliable than Zo. Wanna know why? Because they have no reason to lie. (even ignoring the fact they could not possibly be lying as it is fact for everything they did.) And Perpetual Oll Persson doesn't even care for the Emperor and actually does not like him.
Either way, I am fething tired of your nonsense. I'm right. You are wrong.
And when could a Perpetual's memories get distorted so much that everything they did never happened? As far as I know, its not as simple as that with memory.
It's not. He's thousands of years old and could very much be as mad as a hatter not to mention the general mind messing of time travel. He found a journal and recognises it. Without a neutral 3rd party verifying that it's as suspect as Zo.
Zo had no reason to lie in her statement whatsoever so lying because she hates big E is soooooo dumb.
Welcome to the club.
It's a good look when you end things saying "I'm right. You're wrong."
What you know doesn't matter. There's nothing irl remotely like Perpetuals to compare to, they're in a universe where people rewrite memories and everything is from a flawed perspective.
pm713 wrote: It's not. He's thousands of years old and could very much be as mad as a hatter not to mention the general mind messing of time travel. He found a journal and recognises it. Without a neutral 3rd party verifying that it's as suspect as Zo.
Zo had no reason to lie in her statement whatsoever so lying because she hates big E is soooooo dumb.
Welcome to the club.
It's a good look when you end things saying "I'm right. You're wrong."
fething prove it. He wrote that journal. feth me side ways. I am fething tired of you denying it.
Actually, Zo DOES have reason to lie. She is an enemy of the Emperor. And people will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they are going to die.
And when does a Perpetual's memory get so distorted they did nothing of what they thought they did? Its not that simple with human memory. At worst they would forget what they did, as far as I know.
Perpetual Oll Persson conveniently remembers doing stuff that happened in real life history and mythology.
pm713 wrote: It's not. He's thousands of years old and could very much be as mad as a hatter not to mention the general mind messing of time travel. He found a journal and recognises it. Without a neutral 3rd party verifying that it's as suspect as Zo.
Zo had no reason to lie in her statement whatsoever so lying because she hates big E is soooooo dumb.
Welcome to the club.
It's a good look when you end things saying "I'm right. You're wrong."
fething prove it. He wrote that journal. feth me side ways. I am fething tired of you denying it.
Actually, Zo DOES have reason to lie. She is an enemy of the Emperor. And people will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they are going to die.
And when does a Perpetual's memory get so distorted they did nothing of what they thought they did? Its not that simple with human memory. At worst they would forget what they did, as far as I know.
Perpetual Oll Persson conveniently remembers doing stuff that happened in real life history and mythology.
Prove he did. Prove it's not just coincidence or Oll being insane. See how annoying that is?
But WHY!? She hates him but there's no gain at all in lying there. There's no motive or reason or evidence for it.
Well the bit when they're 2504 years old and suddenly go senile of course. I'm really just throwing a random reason around which is exactly what you're doing with Zo.
pm713 wrote: It's not. He's thousands of years old and could very much be as mad as a hatter not to mention the general mind messing of time travel. He found a journal and recognises it. Without a neutral 3rd party verifying that it's as suspect as Zo.
Zo had no reason to lie in her statement whatsoever so lying because she hates big E is soooooo dumb.
Welcome to the club.
It's a good look when you end things saying "I'm right. You're wrong."
fething prove it. He wrote that journal. feth me side ways. I am fething tired of you denying it.
Actually, Zo DOES have reason to lie. She is an enemy of the Emperor. And people will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they are going to die.
And when does a Perpetual's memory get so distorted they did nothing of what they thought they did? Its not that simple with human memory. At worst they would forget what they did, as far as I know.
Perpetual Oll Persson conveniently remembers doing stuff that happened in real life history and mythology.
Prove he did. Prove it's not just coincidence or Oll being insane. See how annoying that is?
But WHY!? She hates him but there's no gain at all in lying there. There's no motive or reason or evidence for it.
Well the bit when they're 2504 years old and suddenly go senile of course. I'm really just throwing a random reason around which is exactly what you're doing with Zo.
I just did prove it. He went back in time in Mark of Calth and saw a journal at Verdun he wrote.
None of them are senile in anyway, shape, or form. They don't age. Human memory does not work like someone having distorted memory about fake tings.
I hope you are trolling me.
Why would Zo have o reason to lie? She is an enemy of the Emperor clearly motivated by hatred (hatred between rulers on Terra during the unification wars). And people will say all sorts of things even when they know for a fact they are doing to die.
You didn't prove anything because there's no proof that really is his journal.
They clearly do age otherwise they'd be babies all the time. For example Vulkan is a perpetual but has clearly grown beyond his original size. Prove it. Perpetuals aren't real and aren't comparable to real humans either plus 40k includes the ability to alter memories.
Why WOULD she? She hates the Emperor but that doesn't mean she's going to lie. You keep parroting the same thing again and again and again but it means so little and you can't actually explain it.
pm713 wrote: You didn't prove anything because there's no proof that really is his journal.
They clearly do age otherwise they'd be babies all the time. For example Vulkan is a perpetual but has clearly grown beyond his original size. Prove it. Perpetuals aren't real and aren't comparable to real humans either plus 40k includes the ability to alter memories.
Why WOULD she? She hates the Emperor but that doesn't mean she's going to lie. You keep parroting the same thing again and again and again but it means so little and you can't actually explain it.
I mean they don't age past their prime.
She MIGHT have been lying. Its not certain, but she could have been.
Perpetual brains work almost the same way as humans. And as if their memories would have been altered.
pm713 wrote: She might have been lying but almost certainly wasn't.
Perpetuals might have altered memories but probably don't.
See the similarity?
And why would their memories be altered? As if.
She could very well have been lying. Even if she wasn't, do you really think she would be the only one to speculate what about the Emperor is? Many characters In-universe have wondered about what he is.
pm713 wrote: You didn't prove anything because there's no proof that really is his journal.
They clearly do age otherwise they'd be babies all the time. For example Vulkan is a perpetual but has clearly grown beyond his original size. Prove it. Perpetuals aren't real and aren't comparable to real humans either plus 40k includes the ability to alter memories.
Why WOULD she? She hates the Emperor but that doesn't mean she's going to lie. You keep parroting the same thing again and again and again but it means so little and you can't actually explain it.
Vulkan is also proof that peprpetuals are not immune to mental trauma
pm713 wrote: You didn't prove anything because there's no proof that really is his journal.
They clearly do age otherwise they'd be babies all the time. For example Vulkan is a perpetual but has clearly grown beyond his original size. Prove it. Perpetuals aren't real and aren't comparable to real humans either plus 40k includes the ability to alter memories.
Why WOULD she? She hates the Emperor but that doesn't mean she's going to lie. You keep parroting the same thing again and again and again but it means so little and you can't actually explain it.
Vulkan is also proof that peprpetuals are not immune to mental trauma
I did not say they were immune to it. I'm saying that human memory does not work that way.
Onething, you have a pattern of being rude, and it persists in this thread. If you continue, you will be temporarily suspended.
Please remember that:
1. You can be correct and still be rude. The two are not mutually exclusive.
2. You're NOT going to convince people to see things your way by being abrasive.
pm713 wrote: She might have been lying but almost certainly wasn't.
Perpetuals might have altered memories but probably don't.
See the similarity?
And why would their memories be altered? As if.
She could very well have been lying. Even if she wasn't, do you really think she would be the only one to speculate what about the Emperor is? Many characters In-universe have wondered about what he is.
Why would she lie? As if.
The memories could very well have been altered.
I've never said she was the only one to wonder about what the Emperor is...
The Perpetuals definitely lived through what they have seen/remembered.
I still would not take her seriously (I have not seen anyone answer why she has no reason to lie.). But everything in 40k is told from unreliable narrators.
As much as I hate the idea of Perpetuals I think it's a stretch to just discount Oli's memories based on nothing but conjecture. He could be misremembering things but I don't think there's any evidence for that, nor is there any good reason why it should be the case. Yes, Vulkan endured mental trauma but he was tortured by a fellow Primarch for a significant length of time.
As for Zo and lying, I think it's much more likely her hatred of the Emperor has driven her to concoct theories about him or made her much more likely to believe alternate theories developed by others. Nobody is the villain in their own mind, so she's likely trying to justify her stance against the Emperor through any excuse she can come up with. Or perhaps she is just flat-out lying. The reason would be pretty straight forward: one last contemptuous attempt to sow discord in the ranks of his followers.
Slipspace wrote: As for Zo and lying, I think it's much more likely her hatred of the Emperor has driven her to concoct theories about him or made her much more likely to believe alternate theories developed by others. Nobody is the villain in their own mind, so she's likely trying to justify her stance against the Emperor through any excuse she can come up with. Or perhaps she is just flat-out lying. The reason would be pretty straight forward: one last contemptuous attempt to sow discord in the ranks of his followers.
Or it could be something the author put in to wind-up fans - like the Word Bearers talking about the Ultramarines absorbing the lost Legions.
Onething123456 wrote: The Perpetuals definitely lived through what they have seen/remembered.
I still would not take her seriously (I have not seen anyone answer why she has no reason to lie.). But everything in 40k is told from unreliable narrators.
Which you base on nothing reliable.
It's a bit hard to list reasons when it's incredibly obvious and you're obstinate. There's no possible gain in lying, no motive to do so and the conversation topic is not something she has enough knowledge on to lie well.
Or it could be something the author put in to wind-up fans - like the Word Bearers talking about the Ultramarines absorbing the lost Legions.
I for one am hoping that ends up biting the author in the and becomes canon, because it really is the PERFECT way to have custom player chapters descended from the lost legions, and is a really cool piece of lore to boot.
I think Zo being an enemy of the emperor makes her less likely to lie. It gives her good reason to tell the truth, her impending death makes lying less likely. IMO.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.
No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?
yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.
No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?
yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"
Why are you calling the shaman origin a theory? Its like saying the Emperor getting his powers on Moloch is a theory even though it was printed in the Vengeful Spirit HH book. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was printed.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
I’ve not read the story so will take your word for that as I have no more context other than the quote. Still like the idea that he doesn’t breath and no one has noticed.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
I’ve not read the story so will take your word for that as I have no more context other than the quote. Still like the idea that he doesn’t breath and no one has noticed.
You are aware that you see what the Emperor wants you to see when you look at him? He is not really a 16 foot tall Golden Giant. He can and does breath. That is something Zo probably did not know. Wonder what Zo would thought if I pointed that out to her
And people will lie even when they know for a fact they are going to die. Ted Bundy knew he was going to be executed, but he still stalled and pleaded.
And that is like saying Erebus is less likely to lie to Horus in False Gods because he is an enemy. And that's nonsense.
Onething123456 wrote: The Perpetuals definitely lived through what they have seen/remembered.
I still would not take her seriously (I have not seen anyone answer why she has no reason to lie.). But everything in 40k is told from unreliable narrators.
Which you base on nothing reliable.
It's a bit hard to list reasons when it's incredibly obvious and you're obstinate. There's no possible gain in lying, no motive to do so and the conversation topic is not something she has enough knowledge on to lie well.
She MIGHT have been lying. Ted Bundy (real necrophiliac serial killer) knew for a fact he was going to be executed, but he still stalled and pleaded.
What don't really know what she thought. She was either a liar or a crackpot who believed in idiotic conspiracy theories.
I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books, and almsot all aliens during th Great Crusade were hostile. Page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra originally wanted to conquer the Laer (nothing about wiping them out), but then decided to make them a protectorate.
The Forgeworld books alone show that the Crusade freed billions, trillions, of humans from aliens.
Conveniently, Horus in Horus Rising says the Interex/Kinebrach is the first instance of friendly aliens he has ever seen.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
I’ve not read the story so will take your word for that as I have no more context other than the quote. Still like the idea that he doesn’t breath and no one has noticed.
Well we know for a fact that the emperor was likely capable of interplanetary travel as eartly as the 3rd century AD given Mechanicus states that he is responsable for the story of St George, and that the dragon was defeated then stored on Mars. St. George in real life did not kill a dragon, but lived in the 3rd century, Martyred in 303 AD so it's not only possiable, but likely he can eaither go for long periods without breathing, or simply does not need to.
As for weather or not Zo was lying, I don't think so. Let's look at the Emperor dispassionately for a moment,
The man is incrediably powerful and incrediably mysterious, no one even knows his NAME people are gonna speculate, and come to conclusions, which is what Zo did, she disliked the guy sure and it coloured her speculation, but I suspect others have arrived at this idea as well. what the line really tells us is that..No one really knew who or what the emperor was, and thus people speculated and developed theories.
She certainly wasn't a crack pot. this isn't exactly the birther movement, the emperor was an insanely powerful figure, inhumanly so, some might argue, who appered out of no where with an army of gene forged soldiers and set about conquering humanity. Her theory that he himself may have been a genetic experiment from the dark age that got loose is HARDLY that strange in a world with thunder warriors, space marines Primarchs and other gene enhanced soldiers (the thunder warriors where far from the only geneticly engineered soldiers fighting for terra)
My point about her not being lying was that she may well have not been. Just because she was about to die does not render everything she says to be untrue. As I said, under brutish law it would increase the credibility of what she was saying. It still needs to be seen in a while and the truth is we don’t know what the emperor was or how he worked. He may well have never breathed or needed to. The emperor was what people wanted him to be so she is as reliable as anyone.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.
No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?
yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"
Why are you calling the shaman origin a theory? Its like saying the Emperor getting his powers on Moloch is a theory even though it was printed in the Vengeful Spirit HH book. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was printed.
Yes. I am.
What the Emperor got from Molech is not entirely cut and dry. I personally prefer to interpret that he personally gained little to no power but rather stole/tricked the chaos gods into giving him the knowledge and warp energies needed to make the primarchs. To have any of his power come from the chaos gods is a gacky retcon that cheapens what the Emperor should be.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact
In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.
No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?
yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"
Why are you calling the shaman origin a theory? Its like saying the Emperor getting his powers on Moloch is a theory even though it was printed in the Vengeful Spirit HH book. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was printed.
Yes. I am.
What the Emperor got from Molech is not entirely cut and dry. I personally prefer to interpret that he personally gained little to no power but rather stole/tricked the chaos gods into giving him the knowledge and warp energies needed to make the primarchs. To have any of his power come from the chaos gods is a gacky retcon that cheapens what the Emperor should be.
Horus was convinced the emperor gained power there but it's pretty clear to me that the guy was being manipulated by Chaos and didn't know as much as he thought
I'd concur with that. Chaos was doing it's best to make the emperor look like a lying hypocrite (which to be fair wasn't that hard). Convincing Horus that the Big E was just a petty thief helps Chaos's narrative and improves their control over him.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I'd concur with that. Chaos was doing it's best to make the emperor look like a lying hypocrite (which to be fair wasn't that hard). Convincing Horus that the Big E was just a petty thief helps Chaos's narrative and improves their control over him.
Especially as it means Horus will accept their offer of increased power, not looking too hard at the attached strings, beliving that if his father doesn't have problems he won't
To be fair, Alivia Sureka seemed pretty convinced of that too.
And then there's the issue that the Emperor apparently needed a spaceship to get to Molech, but not to return to Earth.
(For the record, I'm also not a fan of this apparent retcon.)
true but we gotta ask how much Sureka knew about warp craft. I suspect what the emperor got at Molech will be forever a mystery. as GW tends to dislike giving us definative answers I am however of the opinion the one thing we can answer for sure is "Not what Horus got"
In fairness, the emperor can be 'that old' and still be perceived to be a product of the Dark Age - he's so far removed from humanity and we don't know in how many stages he got there. There's a pretty good chance he might have enhanced himself along the way.
At least one of them, for example, could be an alpha plus plus plus (add as many pluses as you like) using the Psykana Engine on Neva to amp himself up another 10^n 'pluses' at some point during the dark age of technology.
Which would make Zo arguably correct, from a certain point of view.
BrianDavion wrote: true but we gotta ask how much Sureka knew about warp craft.
Well, she's a fairly powerful psyker in her own right. And she knew enough that the Emperor trusted her to seal the gate if necessary (although he had to teach her the actual ritual).
An alternative interpretation might be that he was always that powerful, but the mental/psychic fatigue of whatever he did beyond the gate left him unable to hide his psychic might for a while. So the 'powered up' version of the Emperor that Sureka sees when he returns from the Warp is actually how the Emperor really is and it's the 'normal' version she saw going in that was, essentially, just a mask.
having just listened to "first Lord of the Imperium" I've concluded we're missing a part of the puzzle re the emperor. and that piece is tied up in Malcador.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.
going from memory a few facts worth noting
1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.
So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..
The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.
going from memory a few facts worth noting
1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.
So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..
The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.
Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.
going from memory a few facts worth noting
1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.
So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..
The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.
Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.
I said, the audio story "First Lord of the Imperium"
keep in mind I'm not saying my theory doesn't have some holes in it, but it's also likely the idea the Emperor's history is complex and has no easy answer
It IS worth noting that Malcador admits to himself at the end when the person he is talking to dies SOME of what he said was a lie, but we don't know whats the truth and whats the lies (I SUSPECT the lie was simply at the Emperor protects your soul in the afterlife)
HoundsofDemos wrote: Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.
going from memory a few facts worth noting
1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.
So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..
The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.
Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.
I said, the audio story "First Lord of the Imperium"
keep in mind I'm not saying my theory doesn't have some holes in it, but it's also likely the idea the Emperor's history is complex and has no easy answer
It IS worth noting that Malcador admits to himself at the end when the person he is talking to dies SOME of what he said was a lie, but we don't know whats the truth and whats the lies (I SUSPECT the lie was simply at the Emperor protects your soul in the afterlife)
The Emperor sometimes resurrects Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot. So he technically does protect in the afterlife.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.
going from memory a few facts worth noting
1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.
So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..
The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.
Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.
I said, the audio story "First Lord of the Imperium"
keep in mind I'm not saying my theory doesn't have some holes in it, but it's also likely the idea the Emperor's history is complex and has no easy answer
It IS worth noting that Malcador admits to himself at the end when the person he is talking to dies SOME of what he said was a lie, but we don't know whats the truth and whats the lies (I SUSPECT the lie was simply at the Emperor protects your soul in the afterlife)
The Emperor sometimes resurrects Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot. So he technically does protect in the afterlife.
*sighs* I was specificly talking about during the Heresy era.
That's the Big E after he got plugged in to the chair though. One thing Dark Imperium has sorta settled is what ever the Emperor was before he ascended to the throne, he is something very different 10,000 years latter.
HoundsofDemos wrote: That's the Big E after he got plugged in to the chair though. One thing Dark Imperium has sorta settled is what ever the Emperor was before he ascended to the throne, he is something very different 10,000 years latter.
Dude, just because you want to talk about the same damn topics non stop does not mean you can drudge up old, dead threads in an attempt to revive them. It's against forum rules, specifically thread necromancy.
You really want to get all your threads locked recently em?
and becomes canon, because it really is the PERFECT way to have custom player chapters descended from the lost legions, and is a really cool piece of lore to boot.
