That depends on table that needs to be rolled and other factors. For example on our tables 3 could be pretty sweet as well. And -1 to hit is always sweet.
Though 1 auto option is nothing too unusual. Codex is good if it has even 2 useful options.
In 4chan there is more information, but I can not find the link
I paste what I read on facebook
"Points are probably the worst thing for me to leak, so screenshots of the full page at once might be tricky. There have been a large number of points reductions across the board. The head guy for GSC (the one who worked on the initial team, and to my knowledge worked on DE and Nids) put a removed of maths behind it, and he playtests them outside of work."
"Metamorphs are cheaper. Holy feth they were overpriced before. Their weapons all have AP-1 now, or better (for rending claws), and they're cheaper than Genestealers (rightfully). Hand flamers also went down from 8 points, they're about half that price now."
The codex was tested alongside the ork codex, so the armies should be about even. Bad Moonz were painfully dominant in matchups.
"A lot of GW design staff are actually rooting for GSC, as many have kill teams or small armies. There are a few who don't like them as much (scared of turn 1 deep strikes), but the guy who does the maths on the GSC team is widely regarded as a brilliant playtester. He's not paid enough in my opinion, but he doesn't care too much. It's slightly cheesy, but he usually says something like "actually having a balanced army is its own reward, no-one wants to play a gakky army"."
(In regards to goliath trucks and rockgrinders) "We realised that if a GSC player wants to get something to the front line quicker, then they'll just cult ambush stuff. If they want to protect their Neophytes, they just get more Neophytes (which is also cheaper). We've reduced points and added a few stratagems that might help."
> Sabotaged! (1CP) - When an enemy unit is destroyed and has an explosion effect, do not roll any dice - that effect automatically triggers.
> Confusion in the Ranks (3CP) - Choose an enemy unit in your opponent's army. Select one of its aura abilities - that ability cannot be used until the start of your next turn.
> Final Detonation (3CP): Use this stratagem at the start of the fourth battle round. Roll a D6 for each unit on the battlefield. On a 1-3, the unit being rolled for cannot advance this battle round. On a 4+, the unit being rolled for suffers a mortal wound and cannot advance this battle round.
> The Anointed one Rises: Use this stratagem if an Abominant is slain. At the end of the phase, that model is set up again, as close as possible to the previous position and more than 1" from enemy models, with D3 wounds remaining.
> Density Analysis Lenses (1CP) Ignore cover on chosen target.
> Inhuman Reflexes (2CP): A unit gets a 5++, or has its invulnerable save increased by 1.
> Industrial Brutality (1CP) - Double the attacks of all mining weapons in an acolyte squad (rock saw, rock drill or rock cutter only).
> Frenzied Hammering (2CP) - Select a unit of Aberrants - each model in that unit increases its attacks by D3 (roll once for the whole unit), but takes a -1 to hit rolls.
> Strength of Faith (1CP) - 5+ feel no pain, but only vs. mortal wounds in the psychic phase.
> Demolition Claw (1CP) - When a unit with demolition charges makes its attacks while embarked within a goliath truck/rockgrinder. That units demolition charges are not expended in the attack.
> Deliverance Broodsurge (1CP) - Allows a unit embarked on a Goliath Truck to disembark after it moves, though for each one that disembarks roll a D6 - for every roll of 6+ the unit takes a mortal wound.
> Numbers beyond counting (3CP) - Remove a unit from the board, next turn deploy it via Cult Ambush at its full strength.
> Breaking Formation (2CP) - You may deploy a unit with the VEHICLE keyword from your army with the GENESTEALER CULTS keyword as per the Cult Ambush rules.
The relics, psychic powers (apart from Telepathic Summons from 7e) are all ports from the 7e codex.
(when asked about shooting weapons) "We did take a look at the weapons, and a number of them have been improved slightly. The mining laser is not a flat amount of damage, for example."
"There are a few new units making their way in. The gunslinger model has a number of awesome rules, I imagine it'll show up in a large number of lists."
"To be honest it's better if there's still a high level of "needs to be taken with salt" about the leaks. We can't release the whole codex in one go, and points values/new units are the worst things for us to leak. There /is/, however, a "primus-lite" model coming to the codex, for Cult Ambush guidance (though weaker than a Primus, for example no aura of +1 to hit)."
zamerion wrote: The head guy for GSC (the one who worked on the initial team, and to my knowledge worked on DE and Nids) put a removed of maths behind it, and he playtests them outside of work."
The codex was tested alongside the ork codex, so the armies should be about even. Bad Moonz were painfully dominant in matchups.
Well, this all sounds like a fanciful fairy tale. Especially the bit where the slightly shootier Kultur, and not the fighty or the fall-back-and-shoot-and-charge Kultur was somehow super dominating the turn 1 charge army.
zamerion wrote: The head guy for GSC (the one who worked on the initial team, and to my knowledge worked on DE and Nids) put a removed of maths behind it, and he playtests them outside of work."
The codex was tested alongside the ork codex, so the armies should be about even. Bad Moonz were painfully dominant in matchups.
Well, this all sounds like a fanciful fairy tale. Especially the bit where the slightly shootier Kultur, and not the fighty or the fall-back-and-shoot-and-charge Kultur was somehow super dominating the turn 1 charge army.
The poster on 4chan didn't say that Bad Moonz were painfully dominant. He said that the Blunderbuss relic (2d6 shot 12" heavy flamer) the Bad Moons have was pretty good against GSC units, particularly small ones.
To quote the anon:
QUESTION: "How did the Bad Moons Blunderbuss fair in testing vs GSCs? Wondering if I can start modeling without worry. Although I probably will either way."
ANSWER: "It was pretty painful, charges aren't very fun with smaller, elite units (e.g. a 5-10 man Acolyte squad). The glass cannon nature of GSC makes these weapons particularly effective against them."
A ton of those stratagems actually seem really juicy; none of them are the type that I don't think I would ever use. Even Final Detonation seems great in the right circumstance and could potentially help you win by objectives.
barnacle111 wrote: Any more news on this one? Any hints on timing of release, new info on models??? Can't wait!
The Genestealer Cults codex hasn't been announced yet.
For all previous codexes in the past, they announce them once the previous batch of codexes has hit the shelves - typically the day after. The current "batch", is Space Wolves and Orks. So next weekend, when Orks hit the shelves, GSC will be announced.
In the past there has traditionally been a 50-90 day wait time between the announcement of a codex and its release. That gives us a potential release window from roughly Saturday 22nd of December to Saturday 2nd of February. I expect it will fall somewhere in that window.
As far as I'm aware GSC is pushed to after New Year by all the stuff between now and Christmas, though the original plan was for it to be out this year before Kill Team disrupted the release schedule (hence the two week gap between KT and AT, both big boxes).
Ben2 wrote: As far as I'm aware GSC is pushed to after New Year by all the stuff between now and Christmas, though the original plan was for it to be out this year before Kill Team disrupted the release schedule (hence the two week gap between KT and AT, both big boxes).
What suggests Kill Team wasn't part of the plan? Those boxes, cards and whatnot didn't get assembled overnight, even if the models are old.
Ben2 wrote: As far as I'm aware GSC is pushed to after New Year by all the stuff between now and Christmas, though the original plan was for it to be out this year before Kill Team disrupted the release schedule (hence the two week gap between KT and AT, both big boxes).
What suggests Kill Team wasn't part of the plan? Those boxes, cards and whatnot didn't get assembled overnight, even if the models are old.
The suggestion isn't that Kill Team wasn't planned, but there are a fair amount of rumours that the release of Commanders and Rogue Trader were pulled forward a little bit due to leaks.
Assuming these to be true, Wall Creeper is likely to see a change pretty fast so that it can't be used in the assault phase.
That aside, I recall reading something in a 4chan thread that claimed the 7th ed relics were going to see a return so that could be interesting, especially if they toss in a couple new ones for the new characters as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if GW tossed GSC a bone and let them have pseudo-old fly as a WT. They're already going to ignore deep strike changes, likely, as an army wide rule anyway.
At the end of the day a single GSCHQ ignoring enemy models and terrain wouldn't break the game. Strong, but not as strong as two 6s on the table.
Cephalobeard wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if GW tossed GSC a bone and let them have pseudo-old fly as a WT. They're already going to ignore deep strike changes, likely, as an army wide rule anyway.
At the end of the day a single GSCHQ ignoring enemy models and terrain wouldn't break the game. Strong, but not as strong as two 6s on the table.
The GSC don't ignore the deep strike change (they were called out specifically in the FAQ to have to wait until turn 2 to ambush) and instead are getting something different added into the codex to make up for it(maybe the ability to get a pre-1st turn move or something).
I'm pretty sure I remember that as well from one of the shows near the beginning of the year (maybe the one where they revealed sisters was going to happen?)
but clearly things have not quite worked out but they've come close
Ben2 wrote: As far as I'm aware GSC is pushed to after New Year by all the stuff between now and Christmas, though the original plan was for it to be out this year before Kill Team disrupted the release schedule (hence the two week gap between KT and AT, both big boxes).
What suggests Kill Team wasn't part of the plan? Those boxes, cards and whatnot didn't get assembled overnight, even if the models are old.
Release schedules are planned out significantly in advance (like 18 months out) because of the lead time in projects. Rogue Trader took 4 years from concept art to table. However they can be subject to change. This year was meant to be the major year for AoS, with the second edition and some big army releases. It hasn't quite worked out that way due to the sheer amount of other stuff that's been crammed into the release schedule due to Kill Team and Specialist games.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm pretty sure I remember that as well from one of the shows near the beginning of the year (maybe the one where they revealed sisters was going to happen?)
but clearly things have not quite worked out but they've come close
Well then start of year and release schedule already failed to follow GW's word. Orks didn't get release even CLOSE within year whether you count start as 8th ed or 1st codex. So even if statement is correct it would not be gospel as something threw off GW's schedule already. That or GW flat out lied in the first place regarding "within year" statement.
> Sabotaged! (1CP) - When an enemy unit is destroyed and has an explosion effect, do not roll any dice - that effect automatically triggers.
> Confusion in the Ranks (3CP) - Choose an enemy unit in your opponent's army. Select one of its aura abilities - that ability cannot be used until the start of your next turn.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm pretty sure I remember that as well from one of the shows near the beginning of the year (maybe the one where they revealed sisters was going to happen?)
but clearly things have not quite worked out but they've come close
Well then start of year and release schedule already failed to follow GW's word. Orks didn't get release even CLOSE within year whether you count start as 8th ed or 1st codex. So even if statement is correct it would not be gospel as something threw off GW's schedule already. That or GW flat out lied in the first place regarding "within year" statement.
I never did understand where the "all codecies in a year" rubbish came from, I watched that initial livestream when they announced 8th ed and they quite clearly said all codecies by the end of next year, that 6 month difference is quite significant.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm pretty sure I remember that as well from one of the shows near the beginning of the year (maybe the one where they revealed sisters was going to happen?)
but clearly things have not quite worked out but they've come close
Well then start of year and release schedule already failed to follow GW's word. Orks didn't get release even CLOSE within year whether you count start as 8th ed or 1st codex. So even if statement is correct it would not be gospel as something threw off GW's schedule already. That or GW flat out lied in the first place regarding "within year" statement.
I never did understand where the "all codecies in a year" rubbish came from, I watched that initial livestream when they announced 8th ed and they quite clearly said all codecies by the end of next year, that 6 month difference is quite significant.
Can you link me the livestream (and perhaps the timestamp) where they said "all codecies by the end of next year"? I've not seen a single thing from GW that has ever said this. It's like "year of the Xenos". Not a thing.
> Sabotaged! (1CP) - When an enemy unit is destroyed and has an explosion effect, do not roll any dice - that effect automatically triggers.
> Confusion in the Ranks (3CP) - Choose an enemy unit in your opponent's army. Select one of its aura abilities - that ability cannot be used until the start of your next turn.
These two are amazing if true.
Auto detonating a knight in the enemy lines could auto win you the game. Also shutting off someone like Abbadons fearless bubble is just as game changing. I also thought the tide of traitors like stratagem looked nice, nothing there stopping you from recycling purestrains or abbberants.
I'll agree that these rumored strats look VERY good. A friend of mine wanted to sell his Tyranid army, but after these rumors I told him not to, as GC could be great for allies.
These all look very cool. If I pick up the codex instead of selling off my GSC, I'll feel even worse if I keep getting tabled like I do now with all these benefits.
Cephalobeard wrote: Somehow you seem to have missed what I wrote-- I didn't say they do it now, at all.
They did and are likely going to get some form of similar rule or ability. How it works, time will tell.
I was actually thinking about it last night, and Cult Ambush could change into a rule that deploys units like Space Marine Scouts do, which could be awesome as an army gimmick.
Yep. Giving them "Infiltrate" as a rule for turn 1 could be super cool, or just straight up allowing Cult Ambush to ignore the rules for reserves, which they could do, so that they could continue to exit/enter past turn 3 as well, etc.
Who knows, I am but a humble dice roller at the mercy of their decisions, but they have tons of options.
Cephalobeard wrote: Yep. Giving them "Infiltrate" as a rule for turn 1 could be super cool, or just straight up allowing Cult Ambush to ignore the rules for reserves, which they could do, so that they could continue to exit/enter past turn 3 as well, etc.
Who knows, I am but a humble dice roller at the mercy of their decisions, but they have tons of options.
Seeing as they didn't even allow Drop Pods, the poster child for ignoring reserve limitations, to come in turn 1, I doubt we're going to be the exception. No, I think the mechanic will be something different that will likely be less reserve based.
Well, considering we have CA upcoming and no one are using drop pods, who knows what they'll change in CA. As GSC will be a "post CA" army, they may come with changes already taken into account. Who knows!
Cephalobeard wrote: Well, considering we have CA upcoming and no one are using drop pods, who knows what they'll change in CA. As GSC will be a "post CA" army, they may come with changes already taken into account. Who knows!
While your optimism is refreshing (especially on Dakka where optimism goes to die), I prefer to keep my expectations low as to prevent disappointment.
I definitely recall GW mentioning that all Codex would be out by the end of 2018.
Do I remember when they said this? Only that it was around the release of 8th edition when they were speaking to what the planned roll-out of rules for 8th would be.
Do I remember where I saw it? Definitely on the warhammer community channel. But I don't recall it being in a video, just written in one of their daily articles.
Do I think they're actually going to make that date? No. I could see Genestealers 'maybe', but the Ynari, and whatever else might be needing a codex, makes me think probably not.
I think GW got a little too concerned with putting out other things like Necromunda, Titanicus, Kill Team, AoS 2nd ed. So, I get it. I think having a variety of stuff, and not going too hard on finishing 8th is important. And my big hope it that part of the reason for that, is they want to add more models to the GSC, and Ynari, to make them bigger, and more interesting armies. They've also done a pretty good job of continuing to support Bloodbowl, Kill team, Necromunda, Titanicus, and Shadespire over the last year, which is great! If I have to wait a bit longer for my GSC, I'm fine with that...
THOUGH THEY BETTER ADD THE FRIGGIN LIMO!!!1!!!!!!!!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm pretty sure I remember that as well from one of the shows near the beginning of the year (maybe the one where they revealed sisters was going to happen?)
but clearly things have not quite worked out but they've come close
Well then start of year and release schedule already failed to follow GW's word. Orks didn't get release even CLOSE within year whether you count start as 8th ed or 1st codex. So even if statement is correct it would not be gospel as something threw off GW's schedule already. That or GW flat out lied in the first place regarding "within year" statement.
I never did understand where the "all codecies in a year" rubbish came from, I watched that initial livestream when they announced 8th ed and they quite clearly said all codecies by the end of next year, that 6 month difference is quite significant.
Can you link me the livestream (and perhaps the timestamp) where they said "all codecies by the end of next year"? I've not seen a single thing from GW that has ever said this. It's like "year of the Xenos". Not a thing.
Hell no, it's a 2 hour video from 18 months ago, if you want confirmation look for it yourself, it's literally the very first livestream they did just after announcing 8th ed April last year.
skullking wrote: I definitely recall GW mentioning that all Codex would be out by the end of 2018.
Do I remember when they said this? Only that it was around the release of 8th edition when they were speaking to what the planned roll-out of rules for 8th would be.
Do I remember where I saw it? Definitely on the warhammer community channel. But I don't recall it being in a video, just written in one of their daily articles.
Do I think they're actually going to make that date? No. I could see Genestealers 'maybe', but the Ynari, and whatever else might be needing a codex, makes me think probably not.
I think GW got a little too concerned with putting out other things like Necromunda, Titanicus, Kill Team, AoS 2nd ed. So, I get it. I think having a variety of stuff, and not going too hard on finishing 8th is important. And my big hope it that part of the reason for that, is they want to add more models to the GSC, and Ynari, to make them bigger, and more interesting armies. They've also done a pretty good job of continuing to support Bloodbowl, Kill team, Necromunda, Titanicus, and Shadespire over the last year, which is great! If I have to wait a bit longer for my GSC, I'm fine with that...
THOUGH THEY BETTER ADD THE FRIGGIN LIMO!!!1!!!!!!!!
I would assume they meant existing codexes anyway, so Ynnari wouldn’t have counted as part of it as they’ve never had a codex.
"All codexes" was pretty well defined by the armies that got stopgap rules in last year's Chapter Approved. You'll note that Ynnari and Inquisition were not featured there.
They've already broken this promise with Sisters in 2019 of course, but given that the reason is that they decided to rush a full reboot of the army up the production line rather than the original plan of putting out a standard book with no new models... I don't think it's reasonable to complain about that.
Arachnofiend wrote: "All codexes" was pretty well defined by the armies that got stopgap rules in last year's Chapter Approved. You'll note that Ynnari and Inquisition were not featured there.
They've already broken this promise with Sisters in 2019 of course, but given that the reason is that they decided to rush a full reboot of the army up the production line rather than the original plan of putting out a standard book with no new models... I don't think it's reasonable to complain about that.
Also, it looks like GSC won't be coming out in 2018 either. The release schedule for the next two months. There are 9 Saturdays left of this year, including the Saturday coming and the ones around Christmas and New Year. They've got Blackstone Fortress, Chapter Approved, Slaanesh (apparently), Battleforces, Christmas things, AoS things and so on to release before the end of the year.
There just isn't time left in 2018 for GSC to squeeze in a codex - especially not when we've got 1-2 new models at least to be released (the triple pistol Neophyte and the Primus-sword model from the Rumour Engine).
They could easily drop GSC in the next couple weeks. I'd guess they would need to drop sometime early next month. Don't forget GW loves doing those event calendars. Half the crap you mentioned could be a day by day news drop in December. 9 Saturdays is a lot.
Red Corsair wrote: They could easily drop GSC in the next couple weeks. I'd guess they would need to drop sometime early next month. Don't forget GW loves doing those event calendars. Half the crap you mentioned could be a day by day news drop in December. 9 Saturdays is a lot.
Unfortunately they've not yet announced the GSC codex.
You might point to this link, and say "they announced GSC here". Sadly this article only announced Orks and Space Wolves - it only mentions really that GSC are "in the pipeline" at best. The Space Wolves codex and the Orks codex are directly mentioned and referenced, there's nothing of the sort for Genestealer Cults.
If they were to release GSC without an announcement 50-90 days beforehand it would be the first time GW does this in 8th edition ever.
I reckon they'll announce the codex this Sunday, and it'll come out in January or February.
I'm a GSC player myself, and have been hoping for the codex for 18 months too, so we're in the same boat. I just can't see it happening in 2018. :/
Red Corsair wrote: I don't remember Custodes or T-sons having a 50-90 day lead time before dropping.
Oops, the 50-90 day waiting period I was referencing is between the last codex of each batch (traditionally when they announce the codex, but not always) and the first codex of the next batch. So the gap between Blood Angels (early December 2017 from what I recall) and Custodes (late January I believe) was about 50 days, though of course the Custodes Codex was announced on the 6th of January.
It depends whether they could Orks and Space Wolves as being in the same batch as GSC. The "same batch" has, for all other codexes to my knowledge, been defined by their codexes being announced at the same time on Warhammer Community.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
50 days from the 3rd of November (Ork release date) is Sunday 23 December 2018, so who knows, maybe we'll be seeing something around that time? I don't think GW does major releases in the weeks surrounding Christmas and New Years though.
There's plenty of stuff to fill the rest of this year:
Blackstone fortress
Chapter Approved
Scenery bundles
Battleforces
Blood Bowl team
Shadespire gang
Possibly Realm of Chaos, Delaques & AT stuff
I also think we'll see the announcement this weekend with a large Ork-like release in January.
Just to back my "50-90 day" claim up, here's a timeline of the 40k releases since the start of 8th. Ignore the Space Wolves, Orks and GSC dates, those were speculative dates (I made this timeline to theorise when they might be and to show how much of a gap there would be).
Edit: On a second look at this, there have previously been some 30-50 day gaps (or at least, it looks like it) early on in 8th's release cycle, but more recently they've been much further apart.
My hope is that Slaanesh gets the same treatment that Nurgle had end of last year, and beginning of this one, but we'll see. I do think GSC will be a 'next year' thing. And I hope they really go out and make them even more awesome. It feels like they've done well in making them feel like a blue-collar crime organization, but I think they really need to lean hard into the 1930's mobster edge that they were originally created as (well, as 'mobster-y' as a cult of aliens hybrids can get anyway. I'm not looking for fedoras, and pinstripe suits, but limos (ie fancy hive cars), and lavish hive attire would be cool). I would love if GSC were released with new vehicles which could be used by other armies, such as imperial agents, guard, and Chaos cultists. Plus, stuff that might have some place in Necromunda would be cool as well. Vehicles you could use in an 'Armored Convoy' type mission, or high traffic area scenario would add some interesting elements to the game (FYI, i don't own the new Necromunda, so they could already be there?).
ImAGeek wrote: I would assume they meant existing codexes anyway, so Ynnari wouldn’t have counted as part of it as they’ve never had a codex.
I assumed they just meant anything that was listed on the covers of the Indexes, but you could be right? For the record though, the Ynnari are not only listed as a separate army, but also have a separate section on the website (so does the officio Assasinorum, and I doubt they'll get their own army, but who knows?).
Just to back my "50-90 day" claim up, here's a timeline of the 40k releases since the start of 8th. Ignore the Space Wolves, Orks and GSC dates, those were speculative dates (I made this timeline to theorise when they might be and to show how much of a gap there would be).
Edit: On a second look at this, there have previously been some 30-50 day gaps (or at least, it looks like it) early on in 8th's release cycle, but more recently they've been much further apart.
That calender refutes as much as it supports your original assertion. There were no such mentions prior for guard, eldar nids etc They would announce next weeks faction and then start previewing followed by the once week preorder. Your right the later factions had a group leaked but I think that was intentional since folks were getting annoyed by the slow down of releases as GW started adding other games into the pipe. They also used events like LVO then Adepticon to announce these things. Every other time on that calender was just a hint a couple weeks prior.
BTW I think your more then likely right, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the cult drop before Christmas, they dumped both blood angels and dark angels right before X-mas. Blackstone fortress was also hinted at being months away, so we will have to see.
xttz wrote: There's plenty of stuff to fill the rest of this year:
Blackstone fortress
Chapter Approved
Scenery bundles
Battleforces
Blood Bowl team
Shadespire gang
Possibly Realm of Chaos, Delaques & AT stuff
I also think we'll see the announcement this weekend with a large Ork-like release in January.
The thing to remember is stuff like Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Underworlds, AT, can easily just come out alongside something, and several times have. That it all the mini games together as it were.
But I’d strike ‘possibly’ from Realms of Chaos and Necromunda, as they had said they would both be out November and This Year respectively.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But I agree, that doesn’t leave a lot of space with all you mentioned.
So most likely no release this year.
Though there is a chance..
Cults also aren't a massive release, we're talking what, two clam packs, boxed abberants and a vehicle if my dreams come true. Unless they're packing a serious surprise I could easily see that being a week's release along side a boxed game or a few specalist releases. Heck, I half assume it's going to be one clam pack so they can support tooth and claw for a while yet.
If you're wondering why GW only announces things a month or so before it's available, look no further than the whole "they promised every codex within a year/by end of year" discussion. The nature of modeling and molding means that product releases sometimes need to get moved around. We'll be getting GSC soon, just maybe not within the original target window (notice the word is "target" not "promised".
Binabik15 wrote: IF stealers get a limo I'll steal it from them for da waaaagh.
I'd want a few more barely altered cultists, though, the Neophytes are such good human sculpts.
I'd like some female cultists because that'd be a nice way to add some more variety to the army, but more than anything I want Orkstealer Cultists.
THIS!
I really would love some female cultists as well. I get that in the lore, they're just 'at home, pumpin out more lil hybrids', but I want to have some in the mix. I'm planning to convert a second female Primaris, and I'd love to have a female magus as well (yeah I know, lore is there's only one of each...). I think shaving the mohawks off some escher, and if the Delaque hopefully have some female members, we can get some decent stuff to convert them.
Ork Cultists would ROCK! I mean, they had them in the lore. It would be great to have kits to convert eldar, and tau as well. I think some GSC Ogryns, and Ratlings might be fun also. I also still feel that (other than the Limo) there needs to be a REALLY HUGE genestealer beast. Yeah, yeah, the patriarch is a big genestealer, and the abberents are big too, but I want something as big or 'bigger' than a Carnifex. Yes I can just ally with the nids, and use an 'actual' carnifex, or whatever but, but...
skullking wrote: I think some GSC Ogryns, and Ratlings might be fun also. I also still feel that (other than the Limo) there needs to be a REALLY HUGE genestealer beast. Yeah, yeah, the patriarch is a big genestealer, and the abberents are big too, but I want something as big or 'bigger' than a Carnifex. Yes I can just ally with the nids, and use an 'actual' carnifex, or whatever but, but...
True story: When I was conceptualizing my GCult all those years ago (see my sig, this was LONG before we had a codex), I worked out a concept for 'Abominations', which were Genestealer Hybrids gone wrong. I was going to use Ogre bits, Chaos Spawn bits, etc. to build muscular, Ogre-sized freaks that could work as Killa Kans if counting as Orks, or Ogres if counting as IG.
So it was interesting when we got Aberrants, and more recently the Abominant as official GW models. I know I told some people about the idea, but I've chalked it up as a case of spooky evolution. Anyway, yes, I think the gaming niche is there for larger models. I'm a little unsure if the conceptual space is there though, since Aberrants and Abominants have been established in the role of hulking hybrid types.
I'd argue that while combative females might not be quite as common as combative males for the GSC, we have to remember that there would still be working females (too young or old to have kids, infertile, lose the ability due to complications raising an alien-hybrid fetus, early to mid stages of pregnancy, a planet that has a high population of women but low population of men due to the warp, ect, ect, ect). Basically, there isn't a reason not to mix some gals into the mix. Plus I like my cultists crews extra motley whenever possible.
I'm considering getting some Cawdor minis to mix into a couple of squads with some parts swapping to give me even visual variety.
Lorek wrote: I used Orlock gangers as a base for some Chaos cultists, and it worked very nicely. Cawdor is up next for my GSC!
Oh, that sounds nice. I'm definitely considering doing basically a unit of 10 from each gang to go with my regular cultists and my IG cultists. I know I could go with unit markings but I really like the idea of a motley looking mob of different groups (which allows me to tell units apart really easily too), the only concern of course is fitting the less human arms onto some of the models. I'm thinking of basically having my cult basically having infiltrated almost every level of the planet and even involving a Rogue Trader mixed into the group and using the same colors across the clothes as what ties the less uniform model design into each other.
If I can figure out a way to mix Orks in as a GSC unit (I mean they showed up on Necromunda, right?) I'd do it, the question is more how to make it work on the models without spending too much on the old metal ones.
Then again I've always assumed I'm just a little prone to deciding on projects that make my wallet cry.
1st, 2nd and 3rd generation hybrids don't have a sex. Female 4th generation? Maybe, but there's not a snippet of fluff about that.
The problem is that GW made hybrids the bulk of the GSC instead of Brood Brothers. Originally only the first-born was a hybrid, protected by parents and later human siblings.
Dryaktylus wrote: 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation hybrids don't have a sex. Female 4th generation? Maybe, but there's not a snippet of fluff about that.
The problem is that GW made hybrids the bulk of the GSC instead of Brood Brothers. Originally only the first-born was a hybrid, protected by parents and later human siblings.
[Citation needed] on hybrids having no sex since breeding is an important part of the life cycle of the cult and we have no evidence that Genestealers have a means of asexual reproduction like Orks or regular Nids do (and the Nids normally need a Norn Queen to do most of their breeding). Each generation gives birth to the next, and seeing as they retain traits of their parent species, for humans at least, that means some kind of sexual characteristics should still be there, even if they are all bald.
Orkstealer Cults on the otherhand get kind of nuts since they breed via spores which means they can be popping out purestrains in a few months instead of years.
[Citation needed] on hybrids having no sex since breeding is an important part of the life cycle of the cult and we have no evidence that Genestealers have a means of asexual reproduction like Orks or regular Nids do (and the Nids normally need a Norn Queen to do most of their breeding). Each generation gives birth to the next, and seeing as they retain traits of their parent species, for humans at least, that means some kind of sexual characteristics should still be there, even if they are all bald.
Err... no. The first three generations just infect humans, male or female, in the same way as Purestrains. They don't impregnate the victim, they just alter the DNA to make the next child a hybrid. The host species breeds as normal. If you want sources, just start with Paul Murphy and his background for the Stealers.
First two have oviposters. Doesnt mean they dont have gender. Third and fourth are near human or almost human, and would reproduce like the host species. The only thing that all generations share is the hypnotic eyes of a genestealer. Refer to the current publications (7e codex has a few blurbs about it.)
A note as well, most tyranids have a gender, and its female. Previous fluff publications in th codexes have stated that female termigants are larger than males, and most hormigaunts have egg sacks they lay underground before going to die in droves. Not to mention the Tervigon that is literally a brood mother with an actual reproduction organ on display.
[Citation needed] on hybrids having no sex since breeding is an important part of the life cycle of the cult and we have no evidence that Genestealers have a means of asexual reproduction like Orks or regular Nids do (and the Nids normally need a Norn Queen to do most of their breeding). Each generation gives birth to the next, and seeing as they retain traits of their parent species, for humans at least, that means some kind of sexual characteristics should still be there, even if they are all bald.
Err... no. The first three generations just infect humans, male or female, in the same way as Purestrains. They don't impregnate the victim, they just alter the DNA to make the next child a hybrid. The host species breeds as normal. If you want sources, just start with Paul Murphy and his background for the Stealers.
While original lore is always interesting, since things change (a lot) I'm going to go with the most recent lore presented on this kind of thing which doesn't follow your claims. Just a preference on lore sources I guess.
And quibbles like this remind me how likely it is the Imperium would get into wars over what color the Emperor's tea doillies were.
And quibbles like this remind me how likely it is the Imperium would get into wars over what color the Emperor's tea doillies were.
They're gold with lightning bolts and Eagles in the pattern. Everyone knows that. Only heretics would even question such a thing.
*interfaith war commenced*
Binabik15 wrote: IF stealers get a limo I'll steal it from them for da waaaagh.
I'd want a few more barely altered cultists, though, the Neophytes are such good human sculpts.
I'd like some female cultists because that'd be a nice way to add some more variety to the army, but more than anything I want Orkstealer Cultists.
A bit off topic, but I really must recommend these heads from Statuesque to make women for the cult. They look really good on cadian bodies and are absolutely perfect on neophytes.
Pro tip: glue the heads a bit further back and maybe slightly higher up, that changes the percieved chest profile.
Binabik15 wrote: IF stealers get a limo I'll steal it from them for da waaaagh.
I'd want a few more barely altered cultists, though, the Neophytes are such good human sculpts.
I'd like some female cultists because that'd be a nice way to add some more variety to the army, but more than anything I want Orkstealer Cultists.
A bit off topic, but I really must recommend these heads from Statuesque to make women for the cult. They look really good on cadian bodies and are absolutely perfect on neophytes.
Pro tip: glue the heads a bit further back and maybe slightly higher up, that changes the percieved chest profile.
This makes sense. Put a pair of overalls on and strap an armoured or reinforced brace over the torso and the only visible difference between male and female would be the head. I wonder would daemonette heads also work? Or Dark Eldar?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on topic, I don't think there'll be a huge raft of models in the release. The Abominant and new Aberrants are probably enough to get by. Clam pack the characters. Job done. And the GSC have some of the nicest models in the entire game.
This makes sense. Put a pair of overalls on and strap an armoured or reinforced brace over the torso and the only visible difference between male and female would be the head. I wonder would daemonette heads also work? Or Dark Eldar?
Yeah, I've used both daemonette heads and DE wyches heads. They look suitably inhuman :-)
Escher heads are a bit on the small side for cadian bodies, but looks allright on neophytes. Also, escher bodies with acolyte heads is really good to make primus/iconward/etc so nothing goes to waste.
This makes sense. Put a pair of overalls on and strap an armoured or reinforced brace over the torso and the only visible difference between male and female would be the head. I wonder would daemonette heads also work? Or Dark Eldar?
Yeah, I've used both daemonette heads and DE wyches heads. They look suitably inhuman :-)
Escher heads are a bit on the small side for cadian bodies, but looks allright on neophytes. Also, escher bodies with acolyte heads is really good to make primus/iconward/etc so nothing goes to waste.
This makes sense. Put a pair of overalls on and strap an armoured or reinforced brace over the torso and the only visible difference between male and female would be the head. I wonder would daemonette heads also work? Or Dark Eldar?
Yeah, I've used both daemonette heads and DE wyches heads. They look suitably inhuman :-)
Escher heads are a bit on the small side for cadian bodies, but looks allright on neophytes. Also, escher bodies with acolyte heads is really good to make primus/iconward/etc so nothing goes to waste.
Pictures?
Primus to the left has a simple daemonette headswap. Iconward and primus to the right is escher bodies, acolyte heads.
Dryaktylus wrote: 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation hybrids don't have a sex. Female 4th generation? Maybe, but there's not a snippet of fluff about that.
The problem is that GW made hybrids the bulk of the GSC instead of Brood Brothers. Originally only the first-born was a hybrid, protected by parents and later human siblings.
Per the new Genestealer books and I think the codex, no they most definitely have changed this. Folks who get hit by genestealers go off and have sex and their children are hybrids, there's an entire bit about being declared consort of the hiring ranking cult members and expanding the cult's influence. Cycle continues four generations and out pops a cute little genestealer ready to hop on a hulk and say hello to a new world.
They just describe the implant by the purestrain and that 4 generations later another purestrain is born. They describe what the generations look like but they gloss over how they procreate. In the absence of any new information the old description is all we have really. I think they left it open to the player since it really isn't super important and it's not something I'd imagine GW wants to go into detail about, it better that way since they player can decide that about their cult. If your cult wants female soldier then get to it. It's silly how easy it is anyway since it's just a head swap as has been demonstrated, your not going to see a difference in stature since it's got purestrain genestealer in it's veins, and the mining suit would cover most distinguishing human traits. Then they are bald lol.
So I went digging into the 4chan thread the WT dropped from to see if I could find some more goodies and here we go [Some of this will go a bit off topic due to the AMA style of the posts, but I like giving context to everything so I'm throwing it ALL in]:
[Regarding the ability to get more than one warlord trait or warlord] No stratagem for this. There was, however, an idea for a Primus to get a relic allowing for a WL trait (to represent the fact that in the fluff it's described as a warlord), but it was taken out last minute.
[Regarding points costs for Acolytes, Hybrids and Goliaths] Those things are indeed cheaper, combined with a stratagem or two there's much more of an incentive to take Goliaths.
[Regarding if they're the same source as the Stratagem leak]: That's another person on the GSC team I think. Either way the stratagems etc. they linked were accurate.
[Regarding if he changed any rules writer's minds on things]: I'm a new member of the team, brought in after one of the GSC playtesters complained heavily about the previous members of the GSC codex team. I worked with that guy on Tyranids. He must have got rid of the Brood Brothers rule that was making its rounds a while back - I can't see it anywhere in the codex right now.
I did some digging about that last comment, and this was what I could find regarding the removed Brood Brother rule:
Sorry about the poor image quality, I had to upsize a picture that was made for Rippers.
And then some more info from two 40k general threads later:
[Regarding identity (again): So to clarify, I'm not the same person who leaked the Stratagems and the Brood Brother leak (which has since been removed from the codex). I'm working on the same team as that guy. He's really fecking into maths and probability, he's got dozens of charts he uses, it's pretty cool.
I can't answer questions in too much detail. We did use Codex:Orks to playtest against Codex:GSC, so they are likely of a similar power level to one another. The [The post literally stops there]
[Regarding Subfaction Traits]: Yes, but for the most part they're a copy/paste of the generic subfaction traits you see in other codexes (or more specifically for GSC, from the guard and tyranid codex, e.g. jormungandr). We added in a generic <SUBFACTION> keyword, which is a first for 8e (previously indexes without them didn't get subfaction traits). Brood Brothers have their own trait (+1 Ld when within 6" of a friendly GSC CHARACTER).
[Regarding concern over the removal of "Brood Brothers"]: No, as in the awful rule that the previous playtesters implemented [see above picture]. We're not the GK rules team, we are aware of how to make a codex.
[Clarification on the Codex's Brood Brother's rule]: To clarify, the Brood Brothers rule is pretty much a copy+paste job from the index rules.
[Regarding "#ShotsFired" over the GK Team comment]: Eh, playful rivalries exist between codex design teams. The GK team get particular flakk because, well, they wrote the GK book as it is.
[Regarding the Tau Codex Team]: There are 1-2 newer designers on that team who pretty much follow the orders of the guys higher up, for better or worse. For a while they wouldn't do too much without going to ask the higher ups about it.
[Regarding a request to leak points]oints are probably the worst thing for me to leak, so screenshots of the full page at once might be tricky. There have been a large number of points reductions across the board. The head guy for GSC (the one who worked on the initial team, and to my knowledge worked on DE and Nids) put a feckton of maths behind it, and he playtests them outside of work.
[Regarding a comment about the maths guy being the good kind of neckbeard]: He's a really nice guy, just really into maths. It's an ongoing joke between us two that he's the "Anti-Crud". I've heard Cruddace has quite the reputation here? Something about "maths is just an opinion"? Not sure how true that is, but if true they're polar opposites I guess.
[Regarding posting stratagems]: I could post the stratagems, but they've been leaked previously. If you've not seen those it's worth checking them out. I can't drop leaks all at once - you might have noticed that the GSC leaks have been once every 2-3 weeks so far. I might be able to post more as the codex approaches.
[Regarding how he got the job if he isn't into maths]: I'm into maths and spreadsheets, it's just this guy is above and beyond. He taught us how to do the maths, and we basically follow his principles. Because of him our design team is known as the "Mathtropaths"
[Regarding subfaction specific strats]: There are a few subfaction specifics, but we decided it would be best not to reveal the subfaction stratagems (as it would give away subfactions existed, which might be problematic).
[Regarding the type of maths used]: It's more statistical based. Algebra and Calc are part of it of course, but more specifically we use binomial probability a lot.
[Regarding leaks and if its known if the anon is doing it]: The team are generally aware I think. The bosses do sometimes tell us to "leak a little bit", but some leaks we've done (e.g. the stratagem leak) weren't exactly authorised. As such, we didn't post screenshots, and only made it text-based, to add a layer of plausible deniability (i.e. "anyone could make these up and post them".
[Regarding Metamorphs]: Metamorphs are cheaper. Holy feck they were overpriced before. Their weapons all have AP-1 now, or better (for rending claws), and they're cheaper than Genestealers (rightfully). Hand flamers also went down from 8 points, they're about half that price now.
[Regarding a post about the army being the right pick for an anon due to the passionate people working the company]: A lot of GW design staff are actually rooting for GSC, as many have kill teams or small armies. There are a few who don't like them as much (scared of turn 1 deep strikes), but the guy who does the maths on the GSC team is widely regarded as a brilliant playtester. He's not paid enough in my opinion, but he doesn't care too much. It's slightly cheesy, but he usually says something like "actually having a balanced army is its own reward, no-one wants to play a gakky army".
[Regarding how new units are handled for playtesting and who to thank for the Abominant]: New units are handled with the codex rules, rather than index ones.
Who to thank? Thank yourself, for playing the best army out there :-)
[Regarding the work enviroment]: Pretty chill, but strict deadlines. I can see myself working here for quite some time.
[Regarding an assumption about Stateside based playtesters]: They have playtesters in the States, but for the most part the design is handled in Nottingham
[Regarding how easy it is to make fake leaks]: Exactly. Any text-based leak will generally be ignored, hence why it's easier to do unauthorised leaks that way. If they're ignored, there's less coverage of it too.
[Regarding how playtesting is handled]: It depends on the team. Some teams playtest only internally, within the same codex. Some playtest against whatever army someone can throw together on the day.
The guy on our team playtests them against loads of different builds, usually ones that seem to be doing "pretty well" in tournaments. The top tourney builds get changed quickly, so it's often not worth testing against them (all the time, at least). You don't test as often vs. gakky armies either, as then you're setting the "power bar" way too low.
[Regarding Goliaths]: We realised that if a GSC player wants to get something to the front line quicker, then they'll just cult ambush stuff. If they want to protect their Neophytes, they just get more Neophytes (which is also cheaper). We've reduced points and added a few stratagems that might help.
[Regarding the possibility of getting new units]: There are a few new units making their way in. The gunslinger model has a number of awesome rules, I imagine it'll show up in a large number of lists.
Also, if anyone wants to see the stratagems I've been referencing, most of them are here I believe:
They're paraphrased and a couple of details are missing from what I can tell, but they're pretty accurate. My favourite personally being this one:
> Sabotaged! (1CP) - When an enemy unit is destroyed and has an explosion effect, do not roll any dice - that effect automatically triggers.
[Regarding improving weapons for the army]: We did take a look at the weapons, and a number of them have been improved slightly. The mining laser is not a flat amount of damage, for example.
[Regarding the poster's vagueness about details]: To be honest it's better if there's still a high level of "needs to be taken with salt" about the leaks. We can't release the whole codex in one go, and points values/new units are the worst things for us to leak. There /is/, however, a "primus-lite" model coming to the codex, for Cult Ambush guidance (though weaker than a Primus, for example no aura of +1 to hit).
The Drukhari and Tyranids codices are a pretty good pedigree for the lead designer. Everything I'm seeing about GSC makes me feel really excited for the army, which is a problem because I can not start a new project right now...
Arachnofiend wrote: The Drukhari and Tyranids codices are a pretty good pedigree for the lead designer. Everything I'm seeing about GSC makes me feel really excited for the army, which is a problem because I can not start a new project right now...
It's making me glad that I was getting burnt out on painting yellow and started working on GSC as a means of taking a break.
This makes sense. Put a pair of overalls on and strap an armoured or reinforced brace over the torso and the only visible difference between male and female would be the head. I wonder would daemonette heads also work? Or Dark Eldar?
Yeah, I've used both daemonette heads and DE wyches heads. They look suitably inhuman :-)
Escher heads are a bit on the small side for cadian bodies, but looks allright on neophytes. Also, escher bodies with acolyte heads is really good to make primus/iconward/etc so nothing goes to waste.
Pictures?
Primus to the left has a simple daemonette headswap. Iconward and primus to the right is escher bodies, acolyte heads.
They look great, especially the Escher bodies.
Shame I sold mine and kept the Goliaths..
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.
So I went digging into the 4chan thread the WT dropped from to see if I could find some more goodies and here we go [Some of this will go a bit off topic due to the AMA style of the posts, but I like giving context to everything so I'm throwing it ALL in]:
[Regarding the ability to get more than one warlord trait or warlord] No stratagem for this. There was, however, an idea for a Primus to get a relic allowing for a WL trait (to represent the fact that in the fluff it's described as a warlord), but it was taken out last minute.
[Regarding points costs for Acolytes, Hybrids and Goliaths] Those things are indeed cheaper, combined with a stratagem or two there's much more of an incentive to take Goliaths.
[Regarding if they're the same source as the Stratagem leak]: That's another person on the GSC team I think. Either way the stratagems etc. they linked were accurate.
[Regarding if he changed any rules writer's minds on things]: I'm a new member of the team, brought in after one of the GSC playtesters complained heavily about the previous members of the GSC codex team. I worked with that guy on Tyranids. He must have got rid of the Brood Brothers rule that was making its rounds a while back - I can't see it anywhere in the codex right now.
I did some digging about that last comment, and this was what I could find regarding the removed Brood Brother rule:
Sorry about the poor image quality, I had to upsize a picture that was made for Rippers.
And then some more info from two 40k general threads later:
[Regarding identity (again): So to clarify, I'm not the same person who leaked the Stratagems and the Brood Brother leak (which has since been removed from the codex). I'm working on the same team as that guy. He's really fecking into maths and probability, he's got dozens of charts he uses, it's pretty cool. I can't answer questions in too much detail. We did use Codex:Orks to playtest against Codex:GSC, so they are likely of a similar power level to one another. The [The post literally stops there]
[Regarding Subfaction Traits]: Yes, but for the most part they're a copy/paste of the generic subfaction traits you see in other codexes (or more specifically for GSC, from the guard and tyranid codex, e.g. jormungandr). We added in a generic <SUBFACTION> keyword, which is a first for 8e (previously indexes without them didn't get subfaction traits). Brood Brothers have their own trait (+1 Ld when within 6" of a friendly GSC CHARACTER).
[Regarding concern over the removal of "Brood Brothers"]: No, as in the awful rule that the previous playtesters implemented [see above picture]. We're not the GK rules team, we are aware of how to make a codex.
[Clarification on the Codex's Brood Brother's rule]: To clarify, the Brood Brothers rule is pretty much a copy+paste job from the index rules.
[Regarding "#ShotsFired" over the GK Team comment]: Eh, playful rivalries exist between codex design teams. The GK team get particular flakk because, well, they wrote the GK book as it is.
[Regarding the Tau Codex Team]: There are 1-2 newer designers on that team who pretty much follow the orders of the guys higher up, for better or worse. For a while they wouldn't do too much without going to ask the higher ups about it.
[Regarding a request to leak points]oints are probably the worst thing for me to leak, so screenshots of the full page at once might be tricky. There have been a large number of points reductions across the board. The head guy for GSC (the one who worked on the initial team, and to my knowledge worked on DE and Nids) put a feckton of maths behind it, and he playtests them outside of work.
[Regarding a comment about the maths guy being the good kind of neckbeard]: He's a really nice guy, just really into maths. It's an ongoing joke between us two that he's the "Anti-Crud". I've heard Cruddace has quite the reputation here? Something about "maths is just an opinion"? Not sure how true that is, but if true they're polar opposites I guess.
[Regarding posting stratagems]: I could post the stratagems, but they've been leaked previously. If you've not seen those it's worth checking them out. I can't drop leaks all at once - you might have noticed that the GSC leaks have been once every 2-3 weeks so far. I might be able to post more as the codex approaches.
[Regarding how he got the job if he isn't into maths]: I'm into maths and spreadsheets, it's just this guy is above and beyond. He taught us how to do the maths, and we basically follow his principles. Because of him our design team is known as the "Mathtropaths"
[Regarding subfaction specific strats]: There are a few subfaction specifics, but we decided it would be best not to reveal the subfaction stratagems (as it would give away subfactions existed, which might be problematic).
[Regarding the type of maths used]: It's more statistical based. Algebra and Calc are part of it of course, but more specifically we use binomial probability a lot.
[Regarding leaks and if its known if the anon is doing it]: The team are generally aware I think. The bosses do sometimes tell us to "leak a little bit", but some leaks we've done (e.g. the stratagem leak) weren't exactly authorised. As such, we didn't post screenshots, and only made it text-based, to add a layer of plausible deniability (i.e. "anyone could make these up and post them".
[Regarding Metamorphs]: Metamorphs are cheaper. Holy feck they were overpriced before. Their weapons all have AP-1 now, or better (for rending claws), and they're cheaper than Genestealers (rightfully). Hand flamers also went down from 8 points, they're about half that price now.
[Regarding a post about the army being the right pick for an anon due to the passionate people working the company]: A lot of GW design staff are actually rooting for GSC, as many have kill teams or small armies. There are a few who don't like them as much (scared of turn 1 deep strikes), but the guy who does the maths on the GSC team is widely regarded as a brilliant playtester. He's not paid enough in my opinion, but he doesn't care too much. It's slightly cheesy, but he usually says something like "actually having a balanced army is its own reward, no-one wants to play a gakky army".
[Regarding how new units are handled for playtesting and who to thank for the Abominant]: New units are handled with the codex rules, rather than index ones. Who to thank? Thank yourself, for playing the best army out there :-)
[Regarding the work enviroment]: Pretty chill, but strict deadlines. I can see myself working here for quite some time.
[Regarding an assumption about Stateside based playtesters]: They have playtesters in the States, but for the most part the design is handled in Nottingham
[Regarding how easy it is to make fake leaks]: Exactly. Any text-based leak will generally be ignored, hence why it's easier to do unauthorised leaks that way. If they're ignored, there's less coverage of it too.
[Regarding how playtesting is handled]: It depends on the team. Some teams playtest only internally, within the same codex. Some playtest against whatever army someone can throw together on the day.
The guy on our team playtests them against loads of different builds, usually ones that seem to be doing "pretty well" in tournaments. The top tourney builds get changed quickly, so it's often not worth testing against them (all the time, at least). You don't test as often vs. gakky armies either, as then you're setting the "power bar" way too low.
[Regarding Goliaths]: We realised that if a GSC player wants to get something to the front line quicker, then they'll just cult ambush stuff. If they want to protect their Neophytes, they just get more Neophytes (which is also cheaper). We've reduced points and added a few stratagems that might help.
[Regarding the possibility of getting new units]: There are a few new units making their way in. The gunslinger model has a number of awesome rules, I imagine it'll show up in a large number of lists.
Also, if anyone wants to see the stratagems I've been referencing, most of them are here I believe:
They're paraphrased and a couple of details are missing from what I can tell, but they're pretty accurate. My favourite personally being this one:
> Sabotaged! (1CP) - When an enemy unit is destroyed and has an explosion effect, do not roll any dice - that effect automatically triggers.
[Regarding improving weapons for the army]: We did take a look at the weapons, and a number of them have been improved slightly. The mining laser is not a flat amount of damage, for example.
[Regarding the poster's vagueness about details]: To be honest it's better if there's still a high level of "needs to be taken with salt" about the leaks. We can't release the whole codex in one go, and points values/new units are the worst things for us to leak. There /is/, however, a "primus-lite" model coming to the codex, for Cult Ambush guidance (though weaker than a Primus, for example no aura of +1 to hit).
And that's everything I could find. For now.
It's a shame you weren't there at the time of the leak on the boards. He posted a load more stuff, but hurriedly deleted a load of it, fearing he had posted too much (hence why a lot of the thread seems to be replying to deleted posts, and why the conversation seems to cut off and continue, as though it were skipping parts. I have a load of screenshots somewhere before a most of it was deleted, I might try fishing them out. Things like the Brood Brother regimental bonus being +1 Ld when a <GENESTEALER CULTS> character is within 6". He wasn't able to delete all of it, as 4chan has a limit to the amount of stuff you can delete at once (I think he mentions it in the thread).
It's also worth noting that the original leaker (Brood Brothers etc., back in June) is a different leaker to the one that's more recent.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.
So I went digging into the 4chan thread the WT dropped from to see if I could find some more goodies and here we go [Some of this will go a bit off topic due to the AMA style of the posts, but I like giving context to everything so I'm throwing it ALL in]:
[Regarding the ability to get more than one warlord trait or warlord] No stratagem for this. There was, however, an idea for a Primus to get a relic allowing for a WL trait (to represent the fact that in the fluff it's described as a warlord), but it was taken out last minute.
[Regarding points costs for Acolytes, Hybrids and Goliaths] Those things are indeed cheaper, combined with a stratagem or two there's much more of an incentive to take Goliaths.
[Regarding if they're the same source as the Stratagem leak]: That's another person on the GSC team I think. Either way the stratagems etc. they linked were accurate.
[Regarding if he changed any rules writer's minds on things]: I'm a new member of the team, brought in after one of the GSC playtesters complained heavily about the previous members of the GSC codex team. I worked with that guy on Tyranids. He must have got rid of the Brood Brothers rule that was making its rounds a while back - I can't see it anywhere in the codex right now.
I did some digging about that last comment, and this was what I could find regarding the removed Brood Brother rule:
Sorry about the poor image quality, I had to upsize a picture that was made for Rippers.
And then some more info from two 40k general threads later:
[Regarding identity (again): So to clarify, I'm not the same person who leaked the Stratagems and the Brood Brother leak (which has since been removed from the codex). I'm working on the same team as that guy. He's really fecking into maths and probability, he's got dozens of charts he uses, it's pretty cool.
I can't answer questions in too much detail. We did use Codex:Orks to playtest against Codex:GSC, so they are likely of a similar power level to one another. The [The post literally stops there]
[Regarding Subfaction Traits]: Yes, but for the most part they're a copy/paste of the generic subfaction traits you see in other codexes (or more specifically for GSC, from the guard and tyranid codex, e.g. jormungandr). We added in a generic <SUBFACTION> keyword, which is a first for 8e (previously indexes without them didn't get subfaction traits). Brood Brothers have their own trait (+1 Ld when within 6" of a friendly GSC CHARACTER).
[Regarding concern over the removal of "Brood Brothers"]: No, as in the awful rule that the previous playtesters implemented [see above picture]. We're not the GK rules team, we are aware of how to make a codex.
[Clarification on the Codex's Brood Brother's rule]: To clarify, the Brood Brothers rule is pretty much a copy+paste job from the index rules.
[Regarding "#ShotsFired" over the GK Team comment]: Eh, playful rivalries exist between codex design teams. The GK team get particular flakk because, well, they wrote the GK book as it is.
[Regarding the Tau Codex Team]: There are 1-2 newer designers on that team who pretty much follow the orders of the guys higher up, for better or worse. For a while they wouldn't do too much without going to ask the higher ups about it.
[Regarding a request to leak points]oints are probably the worst thing for me to leak, so screenshots of the full page at once might be tricky. There have been a large number of points reductions across the board. The head guy for GSC (the one who worked on the initial team, and to my knowledge worked on DE and Nids) put a feckton of maths behind it, and he playtests them outside of work.
[Regarding a comment about the maths guy being the good kind of neckbeard]: He's a really nice guy, just really into maths. It's an ongoing joke between us two that he's the "Anti-Crud". I've heard Cruddace has quite the reputation here? Something about "maths is just an opinion"? Not sure how true that is, but if true they're polar opposites I guess.
[Regarding posting stratagems]: I could post the stratagems, but they've been leaked previously. If you've not seen those it's worth checking them out. I can't drop leaks all at once - you might have noticed that the GSC leaks have been once every 2-3 weeks so far. I might be able to post more as the codex approaches.
[Regarding how he got the job if he isn't into maths]: I'm into maths and spreadsheets, it's just this guy is above and beyond. He taught us how to do the maths, and we basically follow his principles. Because of him our design team is known as the "Mathtropaths"
[Regarding subfaction specific strats]: There are a few subfaction specifics, but we decided it would be best not to reveal the subfaction stratagems (as it would give away subfactions existed, which might be problematic).
[Regarding the type of maths used]: It's more statistical based. Algebra and Calc are part of it of course, but more specifically we use binomial probability a lot.
[Regarding leaks and if its known if the anon is doing it]: The team are generally aware I think. The bosses do sometimes tell us to "leak a little bit", but some leaks we've done (e.g. the stratagem leak) weren't exactly authorised. As such, we didn't post screenshots, and only made it text-based, to add a layer of plausible deniability (i.e. "anyone could make these up and post them".
[Regarding Metamorphs]: Metamorphs are cheaper. Holy feck they were overpriced before. Their weapons all have AP-1 now, or better (for rending claws), and they're cheaper than Genestealers (rightfully). Hand flamers also went down from 8 points, they're about half that price now.
[Regarding a post about the army being the right pick for an anon due to the passionate people working the company]: A lot of GW design staff are actually rooting for GSC, as many have kill teams or small armies. There are a few who don't like them as much (scared of turn 1 deep strikes), but the guy who does the maths on the GSC team is widely regarded as a brilliant playtester. He's not paid enough in my opinion, but he doesn't care too much. It's slightly cheesy, but he usually says something like "actually having a balanced army is its own reward, no-one wants to play a gakky army".
[Regarding how new units are handled for playtesting and who to thank for the Abominant]: New units are handled with the codex rules, rather than index ones.
Who to thank? Thank yourself, for playing the best army out there :-)
[Regarding the work enviroment]: Pretty chill, but strict deadlines. I can see myself working here for quite some time.
[Regarding an assumption about Stateside based playtesters]: They have playtesters in the States, but for the most part the design is handled in Nottingham
[Regarding how easy it is to make fake leaks]: Exactly. Any text-based leak will generally be ignored, hence why it's easier to do unauthorised leaks that way. If they're ignored, there's less coverage of it too.
[Regarding how playtesting is handled]: It depends on the team. Some teams playtest only internally, within the same codex. Some playtest against whatever army someone can throw together on the day.
The guy on our team playtests them against loads of different builds, usually ones that seem to be doing "pretty well" in tournaments. The top tourney builds get changed quickly, so it's often not worth testing against them (all the time, at least). You don't test as often vs. gakky armies either, as then you're setting the "power bar" way too low.
[Regarding Goliaths]: We realised that if a GSC player wants to get something to the front line quicker, then they'll just cult ambush stuff. If they want to protect their Neophytes, they just get more Neophytes (which is also cheaper). We've reduced points and added a few stratagems that might help.
[Regarding the possibility of getting new units]: There are a few new units making their way in. The gunslinger model has a number of awesome rules, I imagine it'll show up in a large number of lists.
Also, if anyone wants to see the stratagems I've been referencing, most of them are here I believe:
They're paraphrased and a couple of details are missing from what I can tell, but they're pretty accurate. My favourite personally being this one:
> Sabotaged! (1CP) - When an enemy unit is destroyed and has an explosion effect, do not roll any dice - that effect automatically triggers.
[Regarding improving weapons for the army]: We did take a look at the weapons, and a number of them have been improved slightly. The mining laser is not a flat amount of damage, for example.
[Regarding the poster's vagueness about details]: To be honest it's better if there's still a high level of "needs to be taken with salt" about the leaks. We can't release the whole codex in one go, and points values/new units are the worst things for us to leak. There /is/, however, a "primus-lite" model coming to the codex, for Cult Ambush guidance (though weaker than a Primus, for example no aura of +1 to hit).
And that's everything I could find. For now.
It's a shame you weren't there at the time of the leak on the boards. He posted a load more stuff, but hurriedly deleted a load of it, fearing he had posted too much (hence why a lot of the thread seems to be replying to deleted posts, and why the conversation seems to cut off and continue, as though it were skipping parts. I have a load of screenshots somewhere before a most of it was deleted, I might try fishing them out. Things like the Brood Brother regimental bonus being +1 Ld when a <GENESTEALER CULTS> character is within 6". He wasn't able to delete all of it, as 4chan has a limit to the amount of stuff you can delete at once (I think he mentions it in the thread).
It's also worth noting that the original leaker (Brood Brothers etc., back in June) is a different leaker to the one that's more recent.
Sadly my work schedule doesn't let me be on all hours of the day and night like I could kind of do in the past. I snagged the Brood Brothers thing though:
[Regarding Subfaction Traits]: Yes, but for the most part they're a copy/paste of the generic subfaction traits you see in other codexes (or more specifically for GSC, from the guard and tyranid codex, e.g. jormungandr). We added in a generic <SUBFACTION> keyword, which is a first for 8e (previously indexes without them didn't get subfaction traits). Brood Brothers have their own trait (+1 Ld when within 6" of a friendly GSC CHARACTER).
Sadly my work schedule doesn't let me be on all hours of the day and night like I could kind of do in the past. I snagged the Brood Brothers thing though:
Yeah, that's understandable. I just happened to be there at the right time, and got the screenshots to look over them later. I really hope these leaks aren't fake - they look really good and thematic. If they are fake, I wonder if GW could ever do a job as incredible as the leaks above, or whether the codex would be worse by comparison.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.
I cannot imagine caring what other people do or don't do with their dolls.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.
Even if we did buy in to run a CP battery, the Loyal 32 (I guess in this case, the Disloyal 32?) are the basis of an allied Brigade so it's not like it's a bad shake up for us anyways.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.
Even if we did buy in to run a CP battery, the Loyal 32 (I guess in this case, the Disloyal 32?) are the basis of an allied Brigade so it's not like it's a bad shake up for us anyways.
I'm someone who has an allied brigade that I bought, built, and painted simply because of how well they work as an allied faction in 8th.
Because of them i'm more willing to buy GSC now, because they naturally work with part of my collection already.
GWs system is working, and I'm happy to contribute because it makes the game fun, for me.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.
It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.
It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.
Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.
Why would GSC need CP batteries? Neophyte Hybrids are about as cheap for Cult Ambush.
My guess is you'll be able to take any model with the <Regiment> keyword, so everything that's not Storm Troopers, Commissars, Priests, Ogryns, etc.
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.
Why would GSC need CP batteries? Neophyte Hybrids are about as cheap for Cult Ambush.
My guess is you'll be able to take any model with the <Regiment> keyword, so everything that's not Storm Troopers, Commissars, Priests, Ogryns, etc.
That's basically what we already do. I'd kind of like to see GSC Priests and Ogryn options though (representing infected Ecclesiarchy and mutants in a hive for example).
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.
It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.
Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.
Yeah, before he deleted the comments, the anon said stuff along the lines of:
The people he worked with were really salty about GSC being able to use guard stuff, as they felt it was unfair and made guard not special any more.
They hated the idea of first turn charges and wanted to make Cult Ambush a deployment option (so you'd have to put your models in front of the enemy gunline and get shot off the board before you could act if you didn't go first), and no Ambush beyond it (aside from return to the shadows).
None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.
They didn't like maths at all, and did not want to use it to balance the codex. The anon said that it was likely their excuse for being lazy.
Here are a few quote from that thread that I think have been deleted since:
QUESTION: "Do you guys not use math to figure this stuff out? Like running numbers and rolling for the stuff and seeing if it pans out, instead of just hearing the proposed and giving a "yah" or "nay"."
ANSWERS TO THAT AND SIMILAR QUESTIONS
"We consider mathhammer, but it's not very complicated mathhammer. It's literally just "Huh, this squad hits half the time and will wound 33% of the time against its primary target (e.g. infantry)." That seems good enough for a 11 point model!"
"I quote spreadsheets widely used over the internet, as well as those I made myself, but they're usually ignored as "how do we know the maths is correct?", or simply that they don't understand how the spreadsheet works."
"They don't trust the spreadsheets, and don't want to spend effort doing hundreds of calculations. They'll do the maths, but only like 4-5 times for each unit. They consider their offensive abilities versus their 'primary target'. They just don't want to use a spreadsheet they didn't create themselves, but don't create a spreadsheet themselves."
"This is precisely it. I'm pretty much the only person who cares about proper maths - I did it at university (with a particular focus on statistics)."
"I'm working as hard as to change it. When we send it to GW, I'm going to send them a separate e-mail, explaining how even mathhammer makes the changes bad (as well as the battles which, though one-sided, have been attributed to "oh, the GSC got unlucky")."
Bear in mind this discussion happened back in late July/August, so it's changed now. The old team members are gone (apart from the maths guy).
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.
It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.
Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.
Yeah, before he deleted the comments, the anon said stuff along the lines of:
The people he worked with were really salty about GSC being able to use guard stuff, as they felt it was unfair and made guard not special any more.
Honestly? They're not wrong. Skitarii did something similar.
I have no qualms with GSC having units that utilize the same stuff as Guard, but when it's literally a book with several instances of units that are Guard+ and then they get another option to just throw Guard into the mix as well?
They hated the idea of first turn charges and wanted to make Cult Ambush a deployment option (so you'd have to put your models in front of the enemy gunline and get shot off the board before you could act if you didn't go first), and no Ambush beyond it (aside from return to the shadows).
None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.
This all kinda sounds like "anon" also had personality clashes in that they thought first turn charges were a-okay and not potentially problematic.
With regards to mathhammer--this is something I keep trying to hammer home. It's great and all to have statistics but people can make statistics 'fit' their viewpoints.
ClockworkZion wrote:
That's basically what we already do. I'd kind of like to see GSC Priests and Ogryn options though (representing infected Ecclesiarchy and mutants in a hive for example).
Cephalobeard wrote: Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.
Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.
It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.
Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.
Yeah, before he deleted the comments, the anon said stuff along the lines of:
The people he worked with were really salty about GSC being able to use guard stuff, as they felt it was unfair and made guard not special any more.
Honestly? They're not wrong. Skitarii did something similar.
I have no qualms with GSC having units that utilize the same stuff as Guard, but when it's literally a book with several instances of units that are Guard+ and then they get another option to just throw Guard into the mix as well?
They hated the idea of first turn charges and wanted to make Cult Ambush a deployment option (so you'd have to put your models in front of the enemy gunline and get shot off the board before you could act if you didn't go first), and no Ambush beyond it (aside from return to the shadows).
None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.
This all kinda sounds like "anon" also had personality clashes in that they thought first turn charges were a-okay and not potentially problematic.
With regards to mathhammer--this is something I keep trying to hammer home. It's great and all to have statistics but people can make statistics 'fit' their viewpoints.
ClockworkZion wrote:
That's basically what we already do. I'd kind of like to see GSC Priests and Ogryn options though (representing infected Ecclesiarchy and mutants in a hive for example).
The Iconward, Abominant, and Aberrants say "hi".
The anon replaced the guy who wanted to restrict what you could ally in from Guard more heavilly than what you currently can.
Also the Iconward and a Priest aren't the same thing. The Iconward is a banner bearer, and he doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest. Abominant and Aberants are cool, but the Ogryn have other options than them which could work well in a GSC army (because let's be honest, GSC are more melee focused than ranged focused with a lot of units).
Kanluwen wrote: it's literally a book with several instances of units that are Guard+ and then they get another option to just throw Guard into the mix as well?
The GSC versions of the guard models (Chimera, Leman Russ, Scout Sentinel, Armoured Sentinel) are more like Guard-, they're flat out worse.
The Leman Russ for example:
Is 15pts more expensive.
Fewer weapons options.
No objective secured in a spearhead.
No regimental bonuses.
No orders to benefit from.
Worse emergency plama vents (take 6MW when you overheat instead of 1MW).
Can't squadron up, so rule of three is more limited.
Granted, the subfaction bonus and points might change when the codex arrives, but I reckon it'll still be worse (compare index guard Russ with index GSC russ).
Was the team the same one who worked on the Necron codex? Because the current one looks like it was made by them. Good thing they're gone now and that the competent guy is still there.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Was the team the same one who worked on the Necron codex? Because the current one looks like it was made by them. Good thing they're gone now and that the competent guy is still there.
Possibly. It sounds like these are devs who are very concerned with making things feel "fair" (read: advantageous) to static shooting armies, and a good Necron codex with genuine resilience would be a struggle for that build. Gotta make sure things die as long as you point a gun at them.
The anon replaced the guy who wanted to restrict what you could ally in from Guard more heavilly than what you currently can.
Yes, and from what was posted it sounded like the anon had a personality clash too in regards to members of the team thinking that GSC shouldn't get as much Guard stuff since it feels like they replace them.
Also the Iconward and a Priest aren't the same thing. The Iconward is a banner bearer, and he doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest.
You're referring to tabletop roles. I'm not.
Iconwards are referred to as "a focus both religious and military" by GW.
Also worth noting that while he "doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest", a Priest doesn't grant a FNP bubble.
Abominant and Aberants are cool, but the Ogryn have other options than them which could work well in a GSC army (because let's be honest, GSC are more melee focused than ranged focused with a lot of units).
I mean this in the nicest way possible here, but so what? Because your army is melee focused you should get the melee units from Guard?
I truly do hope the GSC book is good. Really, I do. But I also don't want to see GSC become Guard 2.0--which it already has to some effect.
The anon replaced the guy who wanted to restrict what you could ally in from Guard more heavilly than what you currently can.
Yes, and from what was posted it sounded like the anon had a personality clash too in regards to members of the team thinking that GSC shouldn't get as much Guard stuff since it feels like they replace them.
Also the Iconward and a Priest aren't the same thing. The Iconward is a banner bearer, and he doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest.
You're referring to tabletop roles. I'm not.
Iconwards are referred to as "a focus both religious and military" by GW.
Also worth noting that while he "doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest", a Priest doesn't grant a FNP bubble.
Abominant and Aberants are cool, but the Ogryn have other options than them which could work well in a GSC army (because let's be honest, GSC are more melee focused than ranged focused with a lot of units).
I mean this in the nicest way possible here, but so what? Because your army is melee focused you should get the melee units from Guard?
I truly do hope the GSC book is good. Really, I do. But I also don't want to see GSC become Guard 2.0--which it already has to some effect.
Personality clash guy was the guy who was removed and the anon replaced. He was a member of the team who wanted GSC to be worse basically.
Bullgryns are melee if you take a power maul and a shield, but they also have shooting options (grenade launcher) and the Ogryns are more of a mixed bag of kinda shooty/kinda punchy but mostly tanky.
And as for why? For those sweet conversions mainly.
ClockworkZion wrote: Personality clash guy was the guy who was removed and the anon replaced. He was a member of the team who wanted GSC to be worse basically.
Just because there might be some confusion with those that read the thread (I'm fairly sure you understand it anyway, Zion), it's worth mentioning the different anons so when they're discussed people have a good idea as to who they're talking about:
The "initial team", which lasted up until about August 2018.
1x Anon (referred to as "Broodscribe" by 4chan), who is the maths-loving designer, who worked on DE and Nids beforehand. He leaked the restrictive Brood Brothers rule and gave the first leaks about the codex back in July/August.
2+ Anons, who are the "lazy ones", who were kicked off the GSC design team after dragging the codex to the ground.
The "current team", from about August 2018 onwards.
1x Anon (Broodscribe from before, who is now GSC's lead designer, and the only member left from the original team).
1x Anon (referred to sometimes as "GSC bro" or "Broodbro" on 4chan), who leaked the stratagems and Warlord Traits a week ago. I believe he worked on the Nids codex with Broodscribe, hence why he was invited to join the GSC team (they had worked together before).
To be honest I see the argument for Genestealer Cults not having access to 90% of the Imperial Guard codex, is the same with DA, BA and SW having all the Space Marine Codex + their special units. I disagree with that, just as I disagree with people that ask for literally everything loyalist marines have with their chaos marines+chaos proper options.
"But they are renegades, what kind of sense does for renegade chapters to lose all of their equipement?!" The same reason for a full terminator force to not be able to full-deepstrike in matched play.
ClockworkZion wrote: Personality clash guy was the guy who was removed and the anon replaced. He was a member of the team who wanted GSC to be worse basically.
Just because there might be some confusion with those that read the thread (I'm fairly sure you understand it anyway, Zion), it's worth mentioning the different anons so when they're discussed people have a good idea as to who they're talking about:
The "initial team", which lasted up until about August 2018.
1x Anon (referred to as "Broodscribe" by 4chan), who is the maths-loving designer, who worked on DE and Nids beforehand. He leaked the restrictive Brood Brothers rule and gave the first leaks about the codex back in July/August.
2+ Anons, who are the "lazy ones", who were kicked off the GSC design team after dragging the codex to the ground.
The "current team", from about August 2018 onwards.
1x Anon (Broodscribe from before, who is now GSC's lead designer, and the only member left from the original team).
1x Anon (referred to sometimes as "GSC bro" or "Broodbro" on 4chan), who leaked the stratagems and Warlord Traits a week ago. I believe he worked on the Nids codex with Broodscribe, hence why he was invited to join the GSC team (they had worked together before).
1+ Anons, who are also new to the GSC team.
That should help quite a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: To be honest I see the argument for Genestealer Cults not having access to 90% of the Imperial Guard codex, is the same with DA, BA and SW having all the Space Marine Codex + their special units. I disagree with that, just as I disagree with people that ask for literally everything loyalist marines have with their chaos marines+chaos proper options.
"But they are renegades, what kind of sense does for renegade chapters to lose all of their equipement?!" The same reason for a full terminator force to not be able to full-deepstrike in matched play.
I mean, if they just give us straight up mutants that have been pulled into the cult I'd be pretty happy. Ogryns were more of a stand-in for that idea. And let's be honest, the Guard nicked the Priest from the Sisters, so it's not like we're really stealing him from them. I know the Iconward is the center peice of the cult's faith, but the cults pull in members across the entire spectrum of society, from mutants, to gang members to nobles they drag everyone in, and as such actually serve as one of the best ways to give the game a cross section of larger Imperial life that isn't just covered in spikes (oh, hai Renegades and Heretics).
Regarding the 'lore', if you assume Black Library novels to be canonical overall, Peter Fehervari's Cult of the Spiral Dawn depicts a female Magus and IIRC (I read the novel over a year ago) as well as several other female members of the cult in various roles (both material to combat and not).
It also features a fairly cool moment where a purestrain hangs a ride on the side of a sentinel.
Also the novel strongly suggests that genestealer-human hybrids are produced in the usual way humans reproduce, even in the earliest generations.
ceorron wrote: Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.
I'd personally really like to see some fast units which don't Cult Ambush traditionally, such as bikers or winged hybrids.
I'd also love to see some sort of mining weapon Lord of War. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome if it did, and looked like this:
Spoiler:
That shouldn't be a LoW, it should be a fortification.
It has tank treads, so it can move.
I wonder if we'll get any more units besides new HQs in the upcoming codex. A Primus Bonesword was shown in a rumour engine back in July/August from what I recall, and there's obviously the Abominant and the Tripistol-Neophyte. This takes us to 7x HQ models, which takes up a lot of our range:
7x HQ > Abominant, Iconward, Patriarch, Primus, Magus, TriPistol Neophyte, Bonesword Wielder 2x Troops > Neophytes, Acolytes. 3x Elites > Metamorphs, Genestealers, Aberrants. 2x Fast Attack > Scout Sentinel, Armoured Sentinel. 2x Heavy Support > Rock Grinder, Leman Russ. 2x Decicated Transport > Goliath Truck, Chimera.
I'm actually hoping the Goliath's get cheap enough to be worth using. Would be fun to have them work with lots of them and position themselves well for the open topped nature, etc.
Idk
Maybe that's just me, but I love the idea of just tons and tons of Neophytes.
Also the novel strongly suggests that genestealer-human hybrids are produced in the usual way humans reproduce, even in the earliest generations.
??
I missed a period when that wasn't the case, apparently. But that was the usual situation from the introduction of genestealers. The Genestealer infects the DNA of the host with its DNA, then host goes off and finds a mate and spawns first gens. Said mate is influenced by the baby's proto-psychic powers/hormones to see it as a normal creature.
I guess the current (7th) edition book can be read differently (thanks to the use of the word 'impregnated'), but it immediately follows up by the host being tainted by the resulting parasitism, which doesn't suggest the biomass birthing directly from the initial infected individual. Especially since it then goes on to say that the first gens reproduce with hypnotized cult members, who sire young in their turn.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm actually hoping the Goliath's get cheap enough to be worth using. Would be fun to have them work with lots of them and position themselves well for the open topped nature, etc.
Idk
Maybe that's just me, but I love the idea of just tons and tons of Neophytes.
He mentioned a points drop and some kind of stratagem(s) that would help them.
Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.
Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.
If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.
Red Corsair wrote: Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.
Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.
If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.
Some sort of brutish mutant could be a great fit for the spot you're taking. Something that is the equivalent of a dreadnought, but made mostly of flesh and wielding an I-Beam for a weapon would be very, very cool.
Red Corsair wrote: Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.
Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.
If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.
Some sort of brutish mutant could be a great fit for the spot you're taking. Something that is the equivalent of a dreadnought, but made mostly of flesh and wielding an I-Beam for a weapon would be very, very cool.
Like... a Carnifex? I mean, convert the model and use the Carnifex rules...
I saw someone say this on an online forum, a comment on the harsh reality of a potential future that hit me pretty hard. Given how closely related GSC and Guard will be it could happen:
"Can't wait for the GSC codex to come out and be fine and balanced as a standalone codex until WAAC guard players use it in some degenerate way and then it gets nerfed to oblivion while Guard walks away unscathed."
I'm probably worrying for nothing here, and making a bigger deal out of it than I should, but I very much feel there's a chance this could happen. Look at Blood Angels, and to a certain extent, Knights.
CaptainBetts wrote: I saw someone say this on an online forum, a comment on the harsh reality of a potential future that hit me pretty hard. Given how closely related GSC and Guard will be it could happen:
"Can't wait for the GSC codex to come out and be fine and balanced as a standalone codex until WAAC guard players use it in some degenerate way and then it gets nerfed to oblivion while Guard walks away unscathed."
I'm probably worrying for nothing here, and making a bigger deal out of it than I should, but I very much feel there's a chance this could happen. Look at Blood Angels, and to a certain extent, Knights.
Except it's not "WAAC guard players". It's WAAC players, period. You can go read a lot of the Guard related threads and see that Guard players have had the same concerns with regards to every bit of soup that's come up with their book.
Blood Angels and Castellans saw a nerf--and yet they still are better off than Conscripts and Commissars are since the nerf those two units saw.
If they added a new unit aside from the 2 new HQ's, do any of you think its possible that we might get a ranged unit? Maybe like Acolytes with some kind of heavy ranged weapon. I highly doubt it as that would encroach on Neophytes, but it's an interesting idea.
I don't mind cult ambush as a mechanic, but there are many factors that contribute to making it OP at times. One of those is just how absolutely hard the GSC units can hit, especially if you pull it off with multiple units, the second is board layout. Many advocate a terrain dense board, such as myself, but with that comes condensed units, which makes a cult ambush even more powerful due to giving so much additional protection if for example the charge doesn't go off, or making it easier to isolate units or even consolidations shenanigans that can tie up huge amounts of an army in the following turn that can't contribute to getting rid of the unit due to falling back.
I'd be in favor of it being more reliable deployment wise but it would have to have an associated cost, and that cost should be in points, not CP and a hefty point cost at that.
Red Corsair wrote: Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.
Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.
If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.
Some sort of brutish mutant could be a great fit for the spot you're taking. Something that is the equivalent of a dreadnought, but made mostly of flesh and wielding an I-Beam for a weapon would be very, very cool.
Like... a Carnifex? I mean, convert the model and use the Carnifex rules...
This was exactly what I was getting at.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kharne the Befriender wrote: If they added a new unit aside from the 2 new HQ's, do any of you think its possible that we might get a ranged unit? Maybe like Acolytes with some kind of heavy ranged weapon. I highly doubt it as that would encroach on Neophytes, but it's an interesting idea.
Also a mining platform LoW would be amazing
I'd rather they simply fix are ranged weapons we already have. Mining lasers come 2 per 10 neos at only 14 pts. All they need is a set 3 damage and they are in amazing territory. Sure the range is limiting, but that's part of the game we play, armies shouldn't run on auto pilot. Besides, with cult ambush or simply moving they can usually get into range fine. Even needing 5's isn't a huge deal since you get 2:1 over infantry squads from IG, so your still hitting with 1 75% of the time on the move. As for small arms, you already answered it, I can't see any unit beating what we already have per point spent. Currently a 20 man neo unit rolling a 5 on an ambush is the equivalent of the same number of cultists from chaos using a 2cp shoot again stratagem.
I hadn't considered using Tyranid models, likely because I was thinking of more human statlines, but the idea of a massive mutant GSC thing with a big ol' feck off melee weapon is cool.
I'd be in favor of it being more reliable deployment wise but it would have to have an associated cost, and that cost should be in points, not CP and a hefty point cost at that.
Looking at genestealers, both cult and hive fleet, it costs about 2-3 points per model on Elite infantry. On regular infantry, it might come at a discounted price per model, since you need way more of them. I sort of agree it needs to be balanced better, and that it should be through points, but I disagree with it being hefty across the board.
As ive played GSC very heavily in 8th as a stand alone army, i can tell you how i feel about it. Maybe not as well as someone deep in the competitive bush of the wilds.
Cult Ambush is an expensive gamble already. It really pays off when you can get those 2-3 units in to combat from the flanks, or when you can line up a good round of heavy shooting before the shooting phase. But, those are balanced out by getting massacred when you fail evwry charge, or whiff every shot. Its not as reliable as id like, and the glass cannon nature of it, even on a dense board, can completely screw turn 2-3 onward.
Maybe its because its still an index army, but it feels like an Elite-Horde army was what they wanted to make GsC into at first. Everything you wanted to take into Ambush to deal with problem units was expensive, and only really worked in large numbers. The chaff was okay, but armor too was abit expensive for the use you got out of them.
I'd be in favor of it being more reliable deployment wise but it would have to have an associated cost, and that cost should be in points, not CP and a hefty point cost at that.
Looking at genestealers, both cult and hive fleet, it costs about 2-3 points per model on Elite infantry. On regular infantry, it might come at a discounted price per model, since you need way more of them. I sort of agree it needs to be balanced better, and that it should be through points, but I disagree with it being hefty across the board.
As ive played GSC very heavily in 8th as a stand alone army, i can tell you how i feel about it. Maybe not as well as someone deep in the competitive bush of the wilds.
Cult Ambush is an expensive gamble already. It really pays off when you can get those 2-3 units in to combat from the flanks, or when you can line up a good round of heavy shooting before the shooting phase. But, those are balanced out by getting massacred when you fail evwry charge, or whiff every shot. Its not as reliable as id like, and the glass cannon nature of it, even on a dense board, can completely screw turn 2-3 onward.
Maybe its because its still an index army, but it feels like an Elite-Horde army was what they wanted to make GsC into at first. Everything you wanted to take into Ambush to deal with problem units was expensive, and only really worked in large numbers. The chaff was okay, but armor too was abit expensive for the use you got out of them.
I don't know, I suppose it isn't as bad against some armies, against other elite armies though cult ambush can be a game winner almost immediately. If you force the elite army to castle up to avoid their better units getting mauled, you're just feeding the support units to the GSC models, so you are already reducing the number of an already small army and can be just out maneuvered easily in the game. On the flip side, you don't castle up and you lose your key units.
A 33% chance to almost guarantee a first turn charge if just too much for me personally, especially as I said above how hard the units can potentially hit as well. It's very fluffy though and I do think they should be able to do it, but it should be costed as such, 50, 75, 100pts I don't know to be able to deploy 9" away from the enemy. I'd even let them choose to do this redeployment once you know who is going first as you won't set up 9" away then necessarily.
Cult Ambush took a bat to the knees with the change to reserves via matched play though, so while it was a strong alpha strike option making it a beta strike option means losing some of your punch on turn 1 in hopes of counter-punching on turn 2. It's a risk/reward trade off, especially if you drop a lot of points into big hordes to ambush with.
Cephalobeard wrote: Let's not turn this GSC Thread into more constant whining about Guard, we have that in literally every other thread on Dakka.
Hey don't turn this thread into whining about how every other thread on Dakka is whining about Guard, we will whine about what we want here. OK?
[Moderator permitting, of course]
Hey! Don't whine about people whining about every thread on Dakka whining about Guard!
More seriously though, I hope GW has taken Guard & Tyranids into account when designing GSC. Both from bringing them into a dominantly GSC army and from bringing a GSC into a dominantly Guard/Tyranid army.
Cephalobeard wrote: Let's not turn this GSC Thread into more constant whining about Guard, we have that in literally every other thread on Dakka.
Hey don't turn this thread into whining about how every other thread on Dakka is whining about Guard, we will whine about what we want here. OK?
[Moderator permitting, of course]
Edit: Unrelated to the above
I do also hope that the strat to ambush a vehicle is... maybe 1CP, rather than two? Ambushing 2 Goliaths with Cache's could be super fun, but I feel like at 2 CP you'd rarely ever do more than 1. Maybe with the combo of guard/GSC you'd have enough CP to manage it, though.
Popping up with like 8 Shotguns and 2 Grenade Launchers, a Cache, the Autocannons and a Stubber from 9" and then moving in to half range for the shotguns, or even just shooting twice on the entry, could be pretty neat.
I'm hoping that if we pay to ambush things we pay like the Orks do: if it's under a certain PL it's 1, if it's over it's 2. That way we can ambush basically everything (ambushing Leman Russ anyone?) but we have to weigh the benefits based on the points costs.
None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.
This could explain any potential changes in the design team... the GW presentation at UKGE earlier this year was done by the design studio manager... who clearly stated that GSC was his favourite/go to army and that he was really excited to get an update early next year. Can't see him being overly keen on anyone messing with his pets.
Red Corsair wrote: Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.
Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.
If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.
Some sort of brutish mutant could be a great fit for the spot you're taking. Something that is the equivalent of a dreadnought, but made mostly of flesh and wielding an I-Beam for a weapon would be very, very cool.
Like... a Carnifex? I mean, convert the model and use the Carnifex rules...
No, something humanoid. Think more like the troll from the Mines of Moria, hulking, nasty, warped and mutated. I'd like the keep the more advanced forms of Tyranid life forms in the Tyranid book, GSC and Tyrnids aren't the same thing.
ceorron wrote: Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.
I'd personally really like to see some fast units which don't Cult Ambush traditionally, such as bikers or winged hybrids.
I'd also love to see some sort of mining weapon Lord of War. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome if it did, and looked like this:
Spoiler:
Yeah, pretty much what I'm thinking. That would be cool.
Think I've wanted something like this, ever since the old Armageddon fluff about dock workers strapping themselves into their cranes and loaders to go out and fight the Gargants and Stompas that were threatening the Hive.
Take advantage of the Cult to add in a few more glimpses at civilian Imperial life.
Speaking of civilian life, heres to hoping for a mass transit vehicle with armor plates strapped to it and racks of autoguns poking out of the sides and windows.
Carnikang wrote: Speaking of civilian life, heres to hoping for a mass transit vehicle with armor plates strapped to it and racks of autoguns poking out of the sides and windows.
Armored suicide bus please.
That would be so awesome. Crap toughness and save, but about 50 wounds would be hilarious.
Carnikang wrote: Speaking of civilian life, heres to hoping for a mass transit vehicle with armor plates strapped to it and racks of autoguns poking out of the sides and windows.
Armored suicide bus please.
That would be so awesome. Crap toughness and save, but about 50 wounds would be hilarious.
Yeah civilian vehicles made up for war would be a really awesome spin.
Carnikang wrote: Speaking of civilian life, heres to hoping for a mass transit vehicle with armor plates strapped to it and racks of autoguns poking out of the sides and windows.
Armored suicide bus please.
That would be so awesome. Crap toughness and save, but about 50 wounds would be hilarious.
Yeah civilian vehicles made up for war would be a really awesome spin.
We've already got this one solved guys! It's been around for 30+ years.
CaptainBetts wrote: I saw someone say this on an online forum, a comment on the harsh reality of a potential future that hit me pretty hard. Given how closely related GSC and Guard will be it could happen:
"Can't wait for the GSC codex to come out and be fine and balanced as a standalone codex until WAAC guard players use it in some degenerate way and then it gets nerfed to oblivion while Guard walks away unscathed."
I'm probably worrying for nothing here, and making a bigger deal out of it than I should, but I very much feel there's a chance this could happen. Look at Blood Angels, and to a certain extent, Knights.
They've literally been able to do this since the Index, so why start now?
Unless GSC suddenly get a unit on the level of Shield-Captains, 'Smash Captains' and Knights that makes taking <Tyranid>. over <Imperium> which I doubt.
Games Workshop is doing a seminar at Blood and Glory (in Derby, UK) this evening, from 8pm - 11pm. They're showing off Blackstone Fortress as part of it. I reckon they'll also announce the Genestealer Cults codex. We'll find out about 30 minutes after the seminar ends (and journalists write up the stuff that happened), at about 11:30pm UK time. I'm tentatively excited.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nothing came up particularly for GSC in that seminar. The codex wasn't really "announced", hence why GSC aren't mentioned at all in the summary article here:
Think that means we're still at the 3+ months stage then. Initial reveal of models (including the Aberrant) following the UK Games Expo specifically said that the book wasn't ready but some models would appear early.
I think I'd expect to see a preview in December as being something to look forward to in the new year. Maybe also even a Chaos vs Gene Cult battle set as part of the Vigilus stage 2 release next year.
I know I told some people about the idea, but I've chalked it up as a case of spooky evolution. Anyway, yes, I think the gaming niche is there for larger models. I'm a little unsure if the conceptual space is there though, since Aberrants and Abominants have been established in the role of hulking hybrid types.
math to figure this stuff out? Like running numbers and rolling for the stuff and seeing if it pans out, instead of just hearing the proposed and giving a "yah" or "nay"."
