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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.

It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.

It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.

Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.

Why would GSC need CP batteries? Neophyte Hybrids are about as cheap for Cult Ambush.

My guess is you'll be able to take any model with the <Regiment> keyword, so everything that's not Storm Troopers, Commissars, Priests, Ogryns, etc.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

I hope it is. It means we have room for a revamp of the Guard codex without having to worry about whining from GSC players who "buy in" specifically to bring CP batteries.

Why would GSC need CP batteries? Neophyte Hybrids are about as cheap for Cult Ambush.

My guess is you'll be able to take any model with the <Regiment> keyword, so everything that's not Storm Troopers, Commissars, Priests, Ogryns, etc.

That's basically what we already do. I'd kind of like to see GSC Priests and Ogryn options though (representing infected Ecclesiarchy and mutants in a hive for example).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.

It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.

Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.

Yeah, before he deleted the comments, the anon said stuff along the lines of:

The people he worked with were really salty about GSC being able to use guard stuff, as they felt it was unfair and made guard not special any more.

They hated the idea of first turn charges and wanted to make Cult Ambush a deployment option (so you'd have to put your models in front of the enemy gunline and get shot off the board before you could act if you didn't go first), and no Ambush beyond it (aside from return to the shadows).

None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.

They didn't like maths at all, and did not want to use it to balance the codex. The anon said that it was likely their excuse for being lazy.

Here are a few quote from that thread that I think have been deleted since:

QUESTION:
"Do you guys not use math to figure this stuff out? Like running numbers and rolling for the stuff and seeing if it pans out, instead of just hearing the proposed and giving a "yah" or "nay"."

ANSWERS TO THAT AND SIMILAR QUESTIONS

"We consider mathhammer, but it's not very complicated mathhammer. It's literally just "Huh, this squad hits half the time and will wound 33% of the time against its primary target (e.g. infantry)." That seems good enough for a 11 point model!"

"I quote spreadsheets widely used over the internet, as well as those I made myself, but they're usually ignored as "how do we know the maths is correct?", or simply that they don't understand how the spreadsheet works."

"They don't trust the spreadsheets, and don't want to spend effort doing hundreds of calculations. They'll do the maths, but only like 4-5 times for each unit. They consider their offensive abilities versus their 'primary target'. They just don't want to use a spreadsheet they didn't create themselves, but don't create a spreadsheet themselves."

"This is precisely it. I'm pretty much the only person who cares about proper maths - I did it at university (with a particular focus on statistics)."

"I'm working as hard as to change it. When we send it to GW, I'm going to send them a separate e-mail, explaining how even mathhammer makes the changes bad (as well as the battles which, though one-sided, have been attributed to "oh, the GSC got unlucky")."

Bear in mind this discussion happened back in late July/August, so it's changed now. The old team members are gone (apart from the maths guy).

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.

It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.

Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.

Yeah, before he deleted the comments, the anon said stuff along the lines of:

The people he worked with were really salty about GSC being able to use guard stuff, as they felt it was unfair and made guard not special any more.

Honestly? They're not wrong. Skitarii did something similar.

I have no qualms with GSC having units that utilize the same stuff as Guard, but when it's literally a book with several instances of units that are Guard+ and then they get another option to just throw Guard into the mix as well?

They hated the idea of first turn charges and wanted to make Cult Ambush a deployment option (so you'd have to put your models in front of the enemy gunline and get shot off the board before you could act if you didn't go first), and no Ambush beyond it (aside from return to the shadows).

None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.

This all kinda sounds like "anon" also had personality clashes in that they thought first turn charges were a-okay and not potentially problematic.

With regards to mathhammer--this is something I keep trying to hammer home. It's great and all to have statistics but people can make statistics 'fit' their viewpoints.

ClockworkZion wrote:
That's basically what we already do. I'd kind of like to see GSC Priests and Ogryn options though (representing infected Ecclesiarchy and mutants in a hive for example).

The Iconward, Abominant, and Aberrants say "hi".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Im really hoping Brood Brothers isn't super, super limited. Would be nice to take Heavy Weapon teams, for example, alongside Infantry squads and Neophytes and just bask in the glory of mortars.

Based on rumors, the limited version was killed and we're keeping something pretty close to the index version.

It actually sounds like the guy who came up with that idea got kicked off the GSC team. That's probably good news for GSC players.

Sounds like he had a bad attitude about something or someone. Sometimes personalities clash and that can cause stuff like that to happen.

Yeah, before he deleted the comments, the anon said stuff along the lines of:

The people he worked with were really salty about GSC being able to use guard stuff, as they felt it was unfair and made guard not special any more.

Honestly? They're not wrong. Skitarii did something similar.

I have no qualms with GSC having units that utilize the same stuff as Guard, but when it's literally a book with several instances of units that are Guard+ and then they get another option to just throw Guard into the mix as well?

They hated the idea of first turn charges and wanted to make Cult Ambush a deployment option (so you'd have to put your models in front of the enemy gunline and get shot off the board before you could act if you didn't go first), and no Ambush beyond it (aside from return to the shadows).

None of them played GSC, and considered anything they got was overpowered.

This all kinda sounds like "anon" also had personality clashes in that they thought first turn charges were a-okay and not potentially problematic.

With regards to mathhammer--this is something I keep trying to hammer home. It's great and all to have statistics but people can make statistics 'fit' their viewpoints.

ClockworkZion wrote:
That's basically what we already do. I'd kind of like to see GSC Priests and Ogryn options though (representing infected Ecclesiarchy and mutants in a hive for example).

The Iconward, Abominant, and Aberrants say "hi".

The anon replaced the guy who wanted to restrict what you could ally in from Guard more heavilly than what you currently can.

Also the Iconward and a Priest aren't the same thing. The Iconward is a banner bearer, and he doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest. Abominant and Aberants are cool, but the Ogryn have other options than them which could work well in a GSC army (because let's be honest, GSC are more melee focused than ranged focused with a lot of units).

 Kanluwen wrote:
it's literally a book with several instances of units that are Guard+ and then they get another option to just throw Guard into the mix as well?

The GSC versions of the guard models (Chimera, Leman Russ, Scout Sentinel, Armoured Sentinel) are more like Guard-, they're flat out worse.

The Leman Russ for example:

Is 15pts more expensive.

Fewer weapons options.

No objective secured in a spearhead.

No regimental bonuses.

No orders to benefit from.

Worse emergency plama vents (take 6MW when you overheat instead of 1MW).

Can't squadron up, so rule of three is more limited.

Granted, the subfaction bonus and points might change when the codex arrives, but I reckon it'll still be worse (compare index guard Russ with index GSC russ).

Was the team the same one who worked on the Necron codex? Because the current one looks like it was made by them. Good thing they're gone now and that the competent guy is still there.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Was the team the same one who worked on the Necron codex? Because the current one looks like it was made by them. Good thing they're gone now and that the competent guy is still there.

Possibly. It sounds like these are devs who are very concerned with making things feel "fair" (read: advantageous) to static shooting armies, and a good Necron codex with genuine resilience would be a struggle for that build. Gotta make sure things die as long as you point a gun at them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The anon replaced the guy who wanted to restrict what you could ally in from Guard more heavilly than what you currently can.

Yes, and from what was posted it sounded like the anon had a personality clash too in regards to members of the team thinking that GSC shouldn't get as much Guard stuff since it feels like they replace them.

Also the Iconward and a Priest aren't the same thing. The Iconward is a banner bearer, and he doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest.

You're referring to tabletop roles. I'm not.

Iconwards are referred to as "a focus both religious and military" by GW.
Also worth noting that while he "doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest", a Priest doesn't grant a FNP bubble.

Abominant and Aberants are cool, but the Ogryn have other options than them which could work well in a GSC army (because let's be honest, GSC are more melee focused than ranged focused with a lot of units).

I mean this in the nicest way possible here, but so what? Because your army is melee focused you should get the melee units from Guard?

I truly do hope the GSC book is good. Really, I do. But I also don't want to see GSC become Guard 2.0--which it already has to some effect.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The anon replaced the guy who wanted to restrict what you could ally in from Guard more heavilly than what you currently can.

Yes, and from what was posted it sounded like the anon had a personality clash too in regards to members of the team thinking that GSC shouldn't get as much Guard stuff since it feels like they replace them.

Also the Iconward and a Priest aren't the same thing. The Iconward is a banner bearer, and he doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest.

You're referring to tabletop roles. I'm not.

Iconwards are referred to as "a focus both religious and military" by GW.
Also worth noting that while he "doesn't let you reroll melee attacks like a Priest", a Priest doesn't grant a FNP bubble.

Abominant and Aberants are cool, but the Ogryn have other options than them which could work well in a GSC army (because let's be honest, GSC are more melee focused than ranged focused with a lot of units).

I mean this in the nicest way possible here, but so what? Because your army is melee focused you should get the melee units from Guard?

I truly do hope the GSC book is good. Really, I do. But I also don't want to see GSC become Guard 2.0--which it already has to some effect.

Personality clash guy was the guy who was removed and the anon replaced. He was a member of the team who wanted GSC to be worse basically.

Bullgryns are melee if you take a power maul and a shield, but they also have shooting options (grenade launcher) and the Ogryns are more of a mixed bag of kinda shooty/kinda punchy but mostly tanky.

And as for why? For those sweet conversions mainly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Personality clash guy was the guy who was removed and the anon replaced. He was a member of the team who wanted GSC to be worse basically.

Just because there might be some confusion with those that read the thread (I'm fairly sure you understand it anyway, Zion), it's worth mentioning the different anons so when they're discussed people have a good idea as to who they're talking about:

The "initial team", which lasted up until about August 2018.

1x Anon (referred to as "Broodscribe" by 4chan), who is the maths-loving designer, who worked on DE and Nids beforehand. He leaked the restrictive Brood Brothers rule and gave the first leaks about the codex back in July/August.

2+ Anons, who are the "lazy ones", who were kicked off the GSC design team after dragging the codex to the ground.

The "current team", from about August 2018 onwards.

1x Anon (Broodscribe from before, who is now GSC's lead designer, and the only member left from the original team).

1x Anon (referred to sometimes as "GSC bro" or "Broodbro" on 4chan), who leaked the stratagems and Warlord Traits a week ago. I believe he worked on the Nids codex with Broodscribe, hence why he was invited to join the GSC team (they had worked together before).

1+ Anons, who are also new to the GSC team.

To be honest I see the argument for Genestealer Cults not having access to 90% of the Imperial Guard codex, is the same with DA, BA and SW having all the Space Marine Codex + their special units. I disagree with that, just as I disagree with people that ask for literally everything loyalist marines have with their chaos marines+chaos proper options.
"But they are renegades, what kind of sense does for renegade chapters to lose all of their equipement?!" The same reason for a full terminator force to not be able to full-deepstrike in matched play.

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Personality clash guy was the guy who was removed and the anon replaced. He was a member of the team who wanted GSC to be worse basically.

Just because there might be some confusion with those that read the thread (I'm fairly sure you understand it anyway, Zion), it's worth mentioning the different anons so when they're discussed people have a good idea as to who they're talking about:

The "initial team", which lasted up until about August 2018.

1x Anon (referred to as "Broodscribe" by 4chan), who is the maths-loving designer, who worked on DE and Nids beforehand. He leaked the restrictive Brood Brothers rule and gave the first leaks about the codex back in July/August.

2+ Anons, who are the "lazy ones", who were kicked off the GSC design team after dragging the codex to the ground.

The "current team", from about August 2018 onwards.

1x Anon (Broodscribe from before, who is now GSC's lead designer, and the only member left from the original team).

1x Anon (referred to sometimes as "GSC bro" or "Broodbro" on 4chan), who leaked the stratagems and Warlord Traits a week ago. I believe he worked on the Nids codex with Broodscribe, hence why he was invited to join the GSC team (they had worked together before).

1+ Anons, who are also new to the GSC team.

That should help quite a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
To be honest I see the argument for Genestealer Cults not having access to 90% of the Imperial Guard codex, is the same with DA, BA and SW having all the Space Marine Codex + their special units. I disagree with that, just as I disagree with people that ask for literally everything loyalist marines have with their chaos marines+chaos proper options.
"But they are renegades, what kind of sense does for renegade chapters to lose all of their equipement?!" The same reason for a full terminator force to not be able to full-deepstrike in matched play.

I mean, if they just give us straight up mutants that have been pulled into the cult I'd be pretty happy. Ogryns were more of a stand-in for that idea. And let's be honest, the Guard nicked the Priest from the Sisters, so it's not like we're really stealing him from them. I know the Iconward is the center peice of the cult's faith, but the cults pull in members across the entire spectrum of society, from mutants, to gang members to nobles they drag everyone in, and as such actually serve as one of the best ways to give the game a cross section of larger Imperial life that isn't just covered in spikes (oh, hai Renegades and Heretics).

Regarding the 'lore', if you assume Black Library novels to be canonical overall, Peter Fehervari's Cult of the Spiral Dawn depicts a female Magus and IIRC (I read the novel over a year ago) as well as several other female members of the cult in various roles (both material to combat and not).
It also features a fairly cool moment where a purestrain hangs a ride on the side of a sentinel.

Also the novel strongly suggests that genestealer-human hybrids are produced in the usual way humans reproduce, even in the earliest generations.

Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.

 ceorron wrote:
Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.

I'd personally really like to see some fast units which don't Cult Ambush traditionally, such as bikers or winged hybrids.

I'd also love to see some sort of mining weapon Lord of War. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome if it did, and looked like this:

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ceorron wrote:
Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.

I'd personally really like to see some fast units which don't Cult Ambush traditionally, such as bikers or winged hybrids.

I'd also love to see some sort of mining weapon Lord of War. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome if it did, and looked like this:

Spoiler:

That shouldn't be a LoW, it should be a fortification.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ceorron wrote:
Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.

I'd personally really like to see some fast units which don't Cult Ambush traditionally, such as bikers or winged hybrids.

I'd also love to see some sort of mining weapon Lord of War. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome if it did, and looked like this:

Spoiler:

That shouldn't be a LoW, it should be a fortification.

It has tank treads, so it can move.

I wonder if we'll get any more units besides new HQs in the upcoming codex. A Primus Bonesword was shown in a rumour engine back in July/August from what I recall, and there's obviously the Abominant and the Tripistol-Neophyte. This takes us to 7x HQ models, which takes up a lot of our range:

7x HQ
> Abominant, Iconward, Patriarch, Primus, Magus, TriPistol Neophyte, Bonesword Wielder
2x Troops
> Neophytes, Acolytes.
3x Elites
> Metamorphs, Genestealers, Aberrants.
2x Fast Attack
> Scout Sentinel, Armoured Sentinel.
2x Heavy Support
> Rock Grinder, Leman Russ.
2x Decicated Transport
> Goliath Truck, Chimera.

That's assuming the "Tripistol Neophyte" and "Bonesword Wielder" are HQs and not Elites.

From what you guys have been posting, there was a mention of a "Primus Lite"--and that would be an appropriate bit.

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CaptainBetts wrote:

 ceorron wrote:
Really looking forward to what GW does with genestealer cults model wise. Could be a real bubbling pot of new ideas from them.

I'd personally really like to see some fast units which don't Cult Ambush traditionally, such as bikers or winged hybrids.

I'd also love to see some sort of mining weapon Lord of War. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome if it did, and looked like this:

Spoiler:

That shouldn't be a LoW, it should be a fortification.

It has tank treads, so it can move.

The Tau have a floating wall that can move too, doesn't keep it from being a building.

Plus I just want to go "my building can beat up your building" when I put it on the table.

As for what they may add to the army, I'm hoping for another Fast Attack option. Plus more mutated cultists.

I'm actually hoping the Goliath's get cheap enough to be worth using. Would be fun to have them work with lots of them and position themselves well for the open topped nature, etc.

Idk

Maybe that's just me, but I love the idea of just tons and tons of Neophytes.

Ignispacium wrote:

Also the novel strongly suggests that genestealer-human hybrids are produced in the usual way humans reproduce, even in the earliest generations.

??
I missed a period when that wasn't the case, apparently. But that was the usual situation from the introduction of genestealers. The Genestealer infects the DNA of the host with its DNA, then host goes off and finds a mate and spawns first gens. Said mate is influenced by the baby's proto-psychic powers/hormones to see it as a normal creature.

I guess the current (7th) edition book can be read differently (thanks to the use of the word 'impregnated'), but it immediately follows up by the host being tainted by the resulting parasitism, which doesn't suggest the biomass birthing directly from the initial infected individual. Especially since it then goes on to say that the first gens reproduce with hypnotized cult members, who sire young in their turn.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm actually hoping the Goliath's get cheap enough to be worth using. Would be fun to have them work with lots of them and position themselves well for the open topped nature, etc.

Idk

Maybe that's just me, but I love the idea of just tons and tons of Neophytes.

He mentioned a points drop and some kind of stratagem(s) that would help them.

Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.

Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.

If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.

Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.

If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.

Some sort of brutish mutant could be a great fit for the spot you're taking. Something that is the equivalent of a dreadnought, but made mostly of flesh and wielding an I-Beam for a weapon would be very, very cool.

Do we have any sense where the Gunslinger is getting slotted in for a release? Kill Team Commander, Codex release, Blackstone?

 Togusa wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Priest don't grant a reroll BTW, they grant +1 attack. Also priests have been a thing in guard armies longer then sisters have been an army. Not trying to kick a nest here, but that should be cleared up.

Not sure, scratch that I am positive GSC doesn't need IG as a CP battery as well.

If you want rules for bigger mutants your in luck because we happen to ally with Tyranids as well. PLENTY of large scale multi limbed mutants over there. Tyranid warriors fit the same bill for modelling as ogryn fir example only they have more flexible options. Only reason to really push for bulgryn on a rules front is because they are such a strong unit. Nothing wrong with the cult not having access to every strong guard unit. In any case it doesn't matter I suppose because the books in the pipe by now and the dice are cast.

Some sort of brutish mutant could be a great fit for the spot you're taking. Something that is the equivalent of a dreadnought, but made mostly of flesh and wielding an I-Beam for a weapon would be very, very cool.

Like... a Carnifex? I mean, convert the model and use the Carnifex rules...

 Eldarain wrote:
Do we have any sense where the Gunslinger is getting slotted in for a release? Kill Team Commander, Codex release, Blackstone?

Not Blackstone, as it’s base doesn’t match the basing scheme for the Blackstone models we’ve seen. Probably just with the codex.