I just looked at the ork codex point costs. Stormboyz and boyz price increase? 90+ for all of the new buggies? DakkaJet remains the same point cost? Mekboy workshop can make your unit be potentially worse when using it? Stompa still 900 points?
Its like GamesWorkshop applied the exact same policy they would to a decent/meta codex by just shining it up here and there to make it good. Polishing a turd gives you a polished turd.
EDIT: My original post was poorly written obviously as I did not even get close to what I was trying to say. (things such as the title was hyperbolic and not an actual question, in a sense shameless clickbait, etc) It appears to me literally, zero people got what I was trying to get at all. I have started to not write massive rants for things because no one reads them but this kind of makes me reconsider the ways to interact with other people. :(. Potentially people become so conditioned to interact with certain types of content; combined with my stylistic choices I think I see how it went so awry.
Me trying to clarify:
To start with the title is not serious; I am not actually asking that question nor do I think GW hates Orks. As earlier stated it is very much an exaggeration in place with my intention for it (abysmally) have 2 uses, a parody and to give a vague conception of what the content of the post is(as titles do). IMO the new Ork vehicles are fantastic sculpts and from an artistic position the Ork range truly is a beautiful beast.
I think Orks hold a special place in 40k that far surpasses a generic comedic relief trope. It wouldn't surprise me at all if GW honestly had no idea Orks haven' t been meta contenders in many years simply because the data they constantly look at is sales and Orks need no help in selling themselves. My "whining", like many others who whine about many things, comes from a place of admiration and a desire for something to be better. One of the things I was trying to convey is that in my opinion, Orks are both fantastically fun to play with and against and I want them to little busted from time to time. I do hope that I am completely wrong about the Ork codex as my brother plays orks, hasn't played in years and I want to be able to tell him, "Ya the new ork codex is competetive and a fantastic codex".
To clarify as to why I am not particularly hopeful for the Ork codex, and no I didn't just have eyes on the stompa (everyone knew the chance of it being good was extremely low) has to deal with the nature of the competetive Ork tactics and armies in the past. [Disclaimer, Heavily opinionated, potentially anecdotal] In general solid Ork units throughout multiple editions were not good in the traditional sense of being 'good'. Frequently Nob BIkers where not the most killy deathstars, and Kan Walls with 200 boyz weren't the shootiest or most mobile. To me, the common thread of good ork units was that they were brilliantly garbage, in that what they had going for them is they where the dirt cheapest for whatever kind of general thing you were looking for. Cheapest jinkers with bikes, cheapest bodies that hosed T4 with 5++ vs shooting. Vehicles that where 10/10/10 but hey its the cheapest vehicle you will ever see. Orks would crush you in their garbage pile of whatever bodies (bikes, vehicles, footslog anything really) the had access to at the time. With a bad BS, never having the best close combat abilities, super medium psychic phase, terrible saves, it wouldn't matter. When Orks where good they brought the value...in their point costs. Orks don't need a castellen, or morty or any of that; it doesn't do aything for them. They need discount joes bargain castellen that barely holds itself together but it its 300 point's im fielding 5. I'm not saying this is the way only way orks can be, obviously codex's change tactics and such as time goes on but for various reasons, I will state later I am currently unconvinced. Fast forward to the current codex, having all of this in my mind, when the buggy was smashed with a wrench I took this as a metaphor that GW finally understood what Orks are on the tabletop. They didn't have the resources to compete because so frequently Orks point costs were just somewhat comparable or little overcosted, which makes for a terrible ork; and they collect dust. Upping the point cost of boys and stormboyz, even after charge buffs and solid klan tactics, left me dumbfounded because making something better or just look sweet has never made a good ork unit. It took me by surprise; I was expecting boyz to remain the same and get their klan tactics, with the buggies hovering at 60-90 points, trucks and wagons 10-20 points more decrease then what they had etc and I was expecting this because when I'm told Orks are back, to me, for better or worse, that means that my gorgeous beast of a garbage fire that is orks will again now flood the board in value (of points) again. WHen boyz are the same cost as a fire warrior, why would I ever want an ork when I get better shooting, better force multipliers, better armor, and better in low numbers in fire warrior. I don't feel that orks ever should pay the same as other factions. Their quirk is value and the current price tags are the same as everyone else.
I obviously went out of my way to "whine" about orks this time but I am completely ok with it because I want to champion Orks this time and orks are the only ones who I would do this for. I wouldn't have given a gak or made a post if any of the other armies I play got nerfed to the ground. Tau had their time, whatever put them in the dirt. Same with CSM, Tzeentch deamons etc. Orks are the only faction I would do this for and I will definitely keep telling the world this opinion until Orks are back in business. Yeah, I could look at the bright sides, I will try to do this for everyone else but not Orks. They are far too important for the game and have spent far to long with bad or mono build lists.
The reason I think orks have not necessarily navigated to a different style completely is that largely speaking the codex remained the same as the index, with tweaks here and there. I was expecting a complete overhaul in stat lines abilities and profiles to accommodate orks going forward. Statlines, most point costs, and rules have remained largely consistent of what they were in the index. And the index of the previous codex and so forth.
Which leads me to another thing I don't believe I got across, and what my post was really trying express via garbage means of hyperbole and self-aware parodying of outrage culture (which obviously doesn't exempt me from participating but its the form i choose to use) which are my concerns. I do hope these concerns to do not come to pass.
Concern 1, With the "better' units of the Ork index getting a point increase and the garbage ones getting a small decrease a concern of mine arises, mono build faction. If the codex really only aligns one build, be it deepstriking big choppa nobz or whatever arises if only 1 list emerges, then IMO that is a failure of the codex as it suffocates creativity and ingenuity. (which is especially criminal considering what codex we are talking about).
Concern 2, WIth Orks seemingly needing a ton of cp, boyz having upped points and gretchin not having klan (correct me in im wrong), fielding something like a brigade or triple battalion leads to far to much-wasted points on gretchin to accommodate that level of cp.
I could go on about things but that's probably enough, to end, no I don't have stocks in stompas (although ol' buzzlebeeb is probably not coming out of his shelf any time soon). I do hope I'm wrong and will revisit this in a few months, but really don't see anything in the new ork codex that cant be done better elsewhere or for much cheaper and I personally am struggling hard to build a list I'm happy about at the end (I build like 20 lists a week as I love doing it so this is a big problem for me). Probably my expectations where far to high (looking for a reconditioning/overhaul of the codex not a polish) but I dont think thats a bad thing. Im very happy with 8th edition but I wanted to voice my opinion (to the world, if my luck is good someone in gw with power) as things can be better. I have a dream......
It's not that they HATE them as such. There's just nobody who has passion for them in rules team combined with rules team being generally incompetent in terms of balancing. Add in GW's principle of shifting what's good and what's bad to ensure what sells changes...
I'm really not referring to the current state of the meta at all. Necrons and grey knights have been top meta choices at points in the last decade. This feels systematic to me. All their cute little commercials and articles made me believe they dreamt of a world were orks could be on top for once.
I wouldn't have cared if they were just a decent codex, or at the very least playable. I just wanted the boyz to have something to be proud about.
Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.
20 years.
Think about how long that really is - no one cares about orks anymore; except the stubborn holdouts, and new players. I have nothing but respect for those who have endured the ages of constant reduction from GW; but I can admit that it's consistently proving itself to be in vain.
fe40k wrote: Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.
20 years.
Think about how long that really is - no one cares about orks anymore; except the stubborn holdouts, and new players. I have nothing but respect for those who have endured the ages of constant reduction from GW; but I can admit that it's consistently proving itself to be in vain.
Yeah, I made the mistake of believing in corporate propaganda, which is why I am so taken aback. I believed gw could care about a poor downtrodden ork. I really do hope a "whoops, we printed are preliminary point costs, these are the 'real' ones" on release day is in our future.
fe40k wrote: Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.
20 years.
Think about how long that really is - no one cares about orks anymore; except the stubborn holdouts, and new players. I have nothing but respect for those who have endured the ages of constant reduction from GW; but I can admit that it's consistently proving itself to be in vain.
Yeah, I made the mistake of believing in corporate propaganda, which is why I am so taken aback. I believed gw could care about a poor downtrodden ork. I really do hope a "whoops, we printed are preliminary point costs, these are the 'real' ones" on release day is in our future.
its the real deal.
the codex was mout likely printed prolly 6-8 months ago.
remember the necron beta codex that floted for some time, more or less all of it was the final edition.
Ozomoto wrote: I just looked at the ork codex point costs. Stormboyz and boyz price increase? 90+ for all of the the new wagons? DakkaJet remains the same point cost? Mekboy workshop can make your unit be potentially worse when using it? Stompa still 900 points?
Its like GamesWorkshop applied the exact same policy they would to a decent/meta codex by just shining it up here and there to make it good. Polishing a turd gives you a polished turd.
Hoping you're mistaken. If boyz went up in cost & ork vehicles didn't decrease in cost there is going to be a lot of upset ork players.
Ozomoto wrote: I just looked at the ork codex point costs. Stormboyz and boyz price increase? 90+ for all of the the new wagons? DakkaJet remains the same point cost? Mekboy workshop can make your unit be potentially worse when using it? Stompa still 900 points?
Its like GamesWorkshop applied the exact same policy they would to a decent/meta codex by just shining it up here and there to make it good. Polishing a turd gives you a polished turd.
Hoping you're mistaken. If boyz went up in cost & ork vehicles didn't decrease in cost there is going to be a lot of upset ork players.
Boyz went up by 1 point, like Stormboyz.
Vehicles received some big point reductions though. Battlewagon with Killkannon for example costs 52 less points now.
Ozomoto wrote: I just looked at the ork codex point costs. Stormboyz and boyz price increase? 90+ for all of the the new wagons? DakkaJet remains the same point cost? Mekboy workshop can make your unit be potentially worse when using it? Stompa still 900 points?
Its like GamesWorkshop applied the exact same policy they would to a decent/meta codex by just shining it up here and there to make it good. Polishing a turd gives you a polished turd.
Hoping you're mistaken. If boyz went up in cost & ork vehicles didn't decrease in cost there is going to be a lot of upset ork players.
Boyz went up by 1 point, like Stormboyz.
Vehicles received some big point reductions though.
The costs really don't scream 'efficient' though with the reductions. There still bs 5+ platforms paying far to much points for dakka with relatively low transport capacity considering what they carry.
The base transport (open topped) went from 82 to 64, that's not bad at all.
I'm not saying that codex: Orks will be OP, but it is definitely too soon to say that it's a bad one. Half the codex received point reductions, sometimes huge ones, and gained all the kulturs and stratagems.
Sure the green tides were nerfed, but we are not talking about Codex: Green Tides.
I remember when codex space wolves came out you had knee jerk "it sucks" as well because despite the codex being a solid one with decent internal balance it was judged that it wasn;t going to be replace any of the Imperial souop components you saw in the sterotypical meta list. Is this another case of good codex, but not obviously broken?" or?
Moriarty wrote: I suppose the performance on the Community video of the exhibition game does not help. A three turn tabling of the new Codex is not encouraging.
That happens more often than you'd think and it's hilarious. When Magnus was debuted in 7th he got dropped first turn!
Typically whenever any new code launches two groups jump up in arms. One group shouting that its the worst codex ever, and another that its so overpowered that it is broken.
A few weeks later most of those people have quietened down and months later the scene is often far more level headed. Of course some codex do end up over or under powered; but in general this new edition has been reasonably solid in balance more or less. There's also been a much bigger push toward having armies with more than one viable build.
About the only real major issue is the min-maxing possible with allies in the Imperial/Marine forces.
Orks are loved - they got their own minigame complete with new sculpts and what 5 or more new vehicle releases. That's pretty huge in this current wave of codex releases where many faction got one model or even no new models with their respective codex. Remembering that this current wave of codex releases has been superfast - we've had under 2 years and there are only 2 factions without a codex (Sisters and Genstealers) whilst GW has introduced several new codex and armies over that time and given a codex to every other. In the old days we might have had 4 codex over that same time period and some armies wouldn't even see a codex before the next edition of the game.
It's incompetence. A lot of stuff was a great improvement but the codex was written by 1 guy (they even said his name in stream and said he wrote the codex). However, they did listen to us when it came to seff dreads and Morkanaut so here is my suggestions of things that need to still be fixed:
1. Rokkits 12 points on a 5+BS model - 1 shot
2. Kannon is 15 pts on a BS 5+ model - 1 shot or d6 S4 shots.
3. Lootas 17pts on a BS 5+ model - still a heavy weapon
4. Stompa 892 pts with no invuln save - taken out after it couldn't even kill1 knight. The things also can't take Kulture traitz.
5. Flyers need a small price drop.
6. Hq's need a small price drop (big mek in MA is double the points of a Teckmarine even without the kff)
7. Gretchin need the Kultur keyword
8. Big shota is 3 pts but twin big shoota is 10pts. Tripple the cost of a big shoota! Wut?!? It's cheaperto run 3 big shootas now than to run 1 twin big shoota? Erm? Gw? You drunk?
9. Twin rokkits is double the cost of rokkits on a BS 5 model.... hahahahaaaaa wtfgw.
The list goes on... Basically the same mistakes from the index the guy just never bothered to fix.
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.
What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?
lolman1c wrote:It's incompetence. A lot of stuff was a great improvement but the codex was written by 1 guy (they even said his name in stream and said he wrote the codex). However, they did listen to us when it came to seff dreads and Morkanaut so here is my suggestions of things that need to still be fixed:
1. Rokkits 12 points on a 5+BS model - 1 shot
2. Kannon is 15 pts on a BS 5+ model - 1 shot or d6 S4 shots.
3. Lootas 17pts on a BS 5+ model - still a heavy weapon
4. Stompa 892 pts with no invuln save - taken out after it couldn't even kill1 knight. The things also can't take Kulture traitz.
5. Flyers need a small price drop.
6. Hq's need a small price drop (big mek in MA is double the points of a Teckmarine even without the kff)
7. Gretchin need the Kultur keyword
8. Big shota is 3 pts but twin big shoota is 10pts. Tripple the cost of a big shoota! Wut?!? It's cheaperto run 3 big shootas now than to run 1 twin big shoota? Erm? Gw? You drunk?
9. Twin rokkits is double the cost of rokkits on a BS 5 model.... hahahahaaaaa wtfgw.
The list goes on... Basically the same mistakes from the index the guy just never bothered to fix.
8. Big shota is 3 pts but twin big shoota is 10pts. Tripple the cost of a big shoota! Wut?!? It's cheaperto run 3 big shootas now than to run 1 twin big shoota? Erm? Gw? You drunk?
you would be suprised. as a GK players looking at razorbacks with psycannons weapon cost, I always though the cost is more 2x the single option.
maybe they will day one FAQ or CA the weaker stuff. Who knows.
That's pretty huge in this current wave of codex releases where many faction got one model or even no new models with their respective codex. Remembering that this current wave of codex releases has been superfast - we've had under 2 years and there are only 2 factions without a codex (Sisters and Genstealers) whilst GW has introduced several new codex and armies over that time and given a codex to every other. In the old days we might have had 4 codex over that same time period and some armies wouldn't even see a codex before the next edition of the game.
They are hyper fast that they did 3 eldar books, 4 if one counts harlequins and at worse all 4 were solid with good soup ability. Yet when they do something else it is more or less a dice roll. They clearlly didn't want BAs to be good, considering the following nerfs. Same team that did eldar, also wrote GK, which is mind blowing when one considers the power difference, With or without soup possibility, casual or not. Same dudes though that a dark reaper shoting twice should cost less then a GK termintor, and that is not counting the fact that GK have 0 stratagems, synergies or psychic powers to buff their stuff.
Also saying that GW was doing such a titanic work to create those books, well I can't agree. Yes, with some, like eldar or knights, they put in a lot of work. But the marine books were a copy past of the index with relics and stratagems added.
I can sort of see the argument if
A) You were really invested in the Stompa being good, and it isn't.
B) You were hoping for a Guard to Current Meta codex, where almost every unit entry would be "good" versus the competition.
Neither however seems especially rational. There are some bad units in the Eldar Codex - especially the Wraith Knight. Its still top tier.
So I really don't get the "sky is falling" response. As I see it the Orks have got a considerable buff over the index and will be a significant feature of the meta. Struggling really to see how this won't be the case.
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.
What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?
lolman1c wrote:It's incompetence. A lot of stuff was a great improvement but the codex was written by 1 guy (they even said his name in stream and said he wrote the codex). However, they did listen to us when it came to seff dreads and Morkanaut so here is my suggestions of things that need to still be fixed:
1. Rokkits 12 points on a 5+BS model - 1 shot
2. Kannon is 15 pts on a BS 5+ model - 1 shot or d6 S4 shots.
3. Lootas 17pts on a BS 5+ model - still a heavy weapon
4. Stompa 892 pts with no invuln save - taken out after it couldn't even kill1 knight. The things also can't take Kulture traitz.
5. Flyers need a small price drop.
6. Hq's need a small price drop (big mek in MA is double the points of a Teckmarine even without the kff)
7. Gretchin need the Kultur keyword
8. Big shota is 3 pts but twin big shoota is 10pts. Tripple the cost of a big shoota! Wut?!? It's cheaperto run 3 big shootas now than to run 1 twin big shoota? Erm? Gw? You drunk?
9. Twin rokkits is double the cost of rokkits on a BS 5 model.... hahahahaaaaa wtfgw.
The list goes on... Basically the same mistakes from the index the guy just never bothered to fix.
who was the writer?
Sam Pearson wrote the codex. However, please do not spam him like people used to do... be civil! Also, I must add I don;t actually believe he was the only guy working on it... they just said on the live stream he was the guy who wrote the rules. So whether you should believe that or not is up to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: I can sort of see the argument if
A) You were really invested in the Stompa being good, and it isn't.
B) You were hoping for a Guard to Current Meta codex, where almost every unit entry would be "good" versus the competition.
Neither however seems especially rational. There are some bad units in the Eldar Codex - especially the Wraith Knight. Its still top tier.
So I really don't get the "sky is falling" response. As I see it the Orks have got a considerable buff over the index and will be a significant feature of the meta. Struggling really to see how this won't be the case.
Ah yes... Because we're all competitive players who want to see a 1 trick pony book and not a book that always you to use your current army to a good standard. I mean It's not like we bought these models for high prices only to have GW make them all but useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mmzero252 wrote: Big shootas are 5 points by the way..not sure where you got 3 from.
Sorry, my bad. The bury image I saw looked like a 3... erghh, this adds like 10 pts to my list. XD
They used to be 6 each and 12 for the twin, so it could be worse! Now you just have to deal with the rest of the terrible codex. This codex was my hope for my army to actually get even a little decent, but it looks like it's going to remain on the shelf.
mmzero252 wrote: They used to be 6 each and 12 for the twin, so it could be worse! Now you just have to deal with the rest of the terrible codex. This codex was my hope for my army to actually get even a little decent, but it looks like it's going to remain on the shelf.
apparently they're actually 5 each... so they lost a whole 1 point! Oh wow! XD
lolman1c wrote: It's incompetence. A lot of stuff was a great improvement but the codex was written by 1 guy (they even said his name in stream and said he wrote the codex). However, they did listen to us when it came to seff dreads and Morkanaut so here is my suggestions of things that need to still be fixed:
1. Rokkits 12 points on a 5+BS model - 1 shot
2. Kannon is 15 pts on a BS 5+ model - 1 shot or d6 S4 shots.
3. Lootas 17pts on a BS 5+ model - still a heavy weapon
4. Stompa 892 pts with no invuln save - taken out after it couldn't even kill1 knight. The things also can't take Kulture traitz.
5. Flyers need a small price drop.
6. Hq's need a small price drop (big mek in MA is double the points of a Teckmarine even without the kff)
7. Gretchin need the Kultur keyword
8. Big shota is 3 pts but twin big shoota is 10pts. Tripple the cost of a big shoota! Wut?!? It's cheaperto run 3 big shootas now than to run 1 twin big shoota? Erm? Gw? You drunk?
9. Twin rokkits is double the cost of rokkits on a BS 5 model.... hahahahaaaaa wtfgw.
The list goes on... Basically the same mistakes from the index the guy just never bothered to fix.
1) Rokkits at 12 are more than fine. Actually they are the best weapon for the cost in its category. Guards pay 20 points for a missile launcher and have an accuracy of 50%, marines pay 25 at 66%. Orks pay 12 and have an accuracy of 38,8%. One is heavy 48, the other one is assault 24", which are about equivalent. One is damage D6 the other one is 3, again about equal, one is slightly better on high wound targets, the other one is a good counter to 3W models and has a more predictable output.
2) Same considerations as above, in this case the cannon compares not so well to a missile launcher, due to 12" less range while keeping about the same rate of hits/point. A bit worse than what guards offer, but not by a big margin.
9) That is normal for 90% of the weapons in the game. Twin weapons almost always cost 2 times as much as the single weapon.
In any case, you will notice with a bit of math that the BS 4,66 of Orks has been taken in consideration for the points costs. No need to act the victim too much.
Impossible question to answer. They don't hate them.
Judgement reserved on the entirely separate question as to the power level of the new book until people have had a chance to play with it and the new chapter approved rules.
fe40k wrote: Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.
They weren't half bad at the outset of 5th. Biker lists, kan walls, battlewagon spam among others.
A.T. wrote: Impossible question to answer. They don't hate them.
Judgement reserved on the entirely separate question as to the power level of the new book until people have had a chance to play with it and the new chapter approved rules.
fe40k wrote: Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.
They weren't half bad at the outset of 5th. Biker lists, kan walls, battlewagon spam among others.
The thousands they pumped into them them this edition shows they don't hate them. The points cost changes are clearly there to push people towards the new stuff and stuff that you wouldn't normally see (I still hold the judgement if they made them good enough we wouldn't need nerfs to push us towards them), However, I honestly want to focus on what hasn't changed. A few things did need buffs but got no points change in the codex... but as I keep saying. So far things don't look terrible but I still see room for judgement in order to improve the codex more in the future.
Overread wrote: Orks are loved - they got their own minigame complete with new sculpts and what 5 or more new vehicle releases. That's pretty huge in this current wave of codex releases where many faction got one model or even no new models with their respective codex. Remembering that this current wave of codex releases has been superfast - we've had under 2 years and there are only 2 factions without a codex (Sisters and Genstealers) whilst GW has introduced several new codex and armies over that time and given a codex to every other. In the old days we might have had 4 codex over that same time period and some armies wouldn't even see a codex before the next edition of the game.
Sisters of Silence and Inquisition are lacking updated rules that pull them out of the Index era and into something playable as well. The Assassins could use a splatbook update as well. But otherwise, basically correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So to add something a little more topical to this topic, I nicked this quote from B&C:
The tipping point for me actually writing this post was the release on the Community Site about the Deathskulls Kultur which starts as a direct copy of the Salamanders chapter tactic (re-roll one hit/wound each time they fight/shoot) except this get's improved to also being able to re-roll a damage roll. And it doesn't stop there. They then get an army-wide invulnerable save, AND objective priority.
So if I'm to believe the OP, Orks were screwed by GW, despite another poster pointing out that they have abilities that exceed that of Marine chapters (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic) then the question is, for everyone who isn't as good as the Orks are, what's the point in even trying?
Its almost as if rerolling to hit and wound on a model with better stats is worth objectively more than rolling to hit on a model that hits 1/3 of the time with generally weaker weapons.
GW don't hate works, they just don't understand how to balance them effectively. There's no malice here. Just stupidity.
ClockworkZion wrote: (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.
ClockworkZion wrote: (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.
Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.
One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.
ClockworkZion wrote: (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.
Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.
One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.
Well.....Ork boys are nearly half the cost of a Tactical Marine, never miss on 6s, have exploding dice when shooting on 6s are better in melee due to having more attacks and can take kulturs that give them an Invul, a FnP or a cover save for free.
I'm not saying Orks are just going to dominate the tournament meta (we'll have to wait and see how points changes in CA shake out first), but they're in a far better place than Marines are at the moment.
ClockworkZion wrote: (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.
Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.
One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.
Well.....Ork boys are nearly half the cost of a Tactical Marine, never miss on 6s, have exploding dice when shooting on 6s are better in melee due to having more attacks and can take kulturs that give them an Invul, a FnP or a cover save for free.
I'm not saying Orks are just going to dominate the tournament meta (we'll have to wait and see how points changes in CA shake out first), but they're in a far better place than Marines are at the moment.
Boys also always miss on 3s and 4s and have a worse armour save.
Likewise, not saying Marines are good. Rather that it's too early to tell how that complete package for Orks stacks up.
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.
What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?
You could play the game for once maybe?
The problem is many people love to whine pre-release about things but never reflect back on when they are wrong, which is very often. People were deriding the Necron codex for being op in the build up to release. People got many things wrong. It may prove right, but maybe give it a go first before whining again and again.
ClockworkZion wrote: (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.
Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.
One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.
Well.....Ork boys are nearly half the cost of a Tactical Marine, never miss on 6s, have exploding dice when shooting on 6s are better in melee due to having more attacks and can take kulturs that give them an Invul, a FnP or a cover save for free.
I'm not saying Orks are just going to dominate the tournament meta (we'll have to wait and see how points changes in CA shake out first), but they're in a far better place than Marines are at the moment.
Boys also always miss on 3s and 4s and have a worse armour save.
Likewise, not saying Marines are good. Rather that it's too early to tell how that complete package for Orks stacks up.
I'm not saying Orks don't have some downsides (worse BS, worse armour) but considering they have less penalties than they used to (boltguns no longer AP their armour, and they don't have to fight after Marines do in melee) they aren't nearly as weak against Marines in a fight as they used to be. Add in the bonuses from the codex and they should be at least upper middle tier in the hands of a good player.
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.
What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?
You could play the game for once maybe?
The problem is many people love to whine pre-release about things but never reflect back on when they are wrong, which is very often. People were deriding the Necron codex for being op in the build up to release. People got many things wrong. It may prove right, but maybe give it a go first before whining again and again.
I don't need to eat dog gak to know it's going to taste bad.
I'm wondering what codex previews people have been watching...outside of the Stompa being too expensive, every single Ork listing I've seen has been pretty damn impressive...very strong Klan traits, obnoxious DDD rule, fantastic stratagems, good warlord traits. What book are people looking at?
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.
What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?
You could play the game for once maybe?
The problem is many people love to whine pre-release about things but never reflect back on when they are wrong, which is very often. People were deriding the Necron codex for being op in the build up to release. People got many things wrong. It may prove right, but maybe give it a go first before whining again and again.
Fair enough, there's definitely a lot of whining like that
Books not out and haters already slamming it. You’ve not even played a game with it. I have played ORKS for thirty years and only care about what the models and fluff is like. So glad prime ORKS didn’t appear and the new models are amazing. Play a few games before you starting your tantrums. GW love ORKS. They are a staple in the game. And as for being incompetent, they produce the most popular wargames and are a huge company making money hand over fist. You are all here talking about their product and buying it. So they are doing something right.
People need to get a grip. If the company makes a product you don’t like it isn’t personal. They didn’t do it to you on purpose. Grow up and realise you are talking about a game and a hobby. It’s supposed to be fun. Stop worrying about winning, (no one cares) and enjoy playing the game.
The codex isn't even out yet. Who here has played a game with orks yet? Noone. Stop slamming them dex for being rubbish when you don't know how good it really is yet, and more importantly when the new Ork kulturs, stratagems and kombos are looking really darn fun. Oh no! You can't roflstomp a tournament because the codex is bad! What a shame! Have some fun. GW CLEARLY do not hate orks apparent through their gigantic hype train developed this month, a pile of new models (much more than many other factions got) and a really cool narrative setting up future releases tying in with the orks. Please stop complaining
The codex isn't even out yet. Who here has played a game with orks yet? Noone.
Someone has, and they got tabled turn 3
It probably doesn't reflect much on the overall capability of the dex tho.
While I personally can't judge Orkz at this stage, I think if Tyranids got a bunch of changes, I'd be able to recognise pretty quickly what is bad or good. I have a pretty good track record of calling the best units in the dex on my first read of a codex.
That being said, I don't trust others to do the same. Time and time again has proved people with a VERY low grasp on the game will throw out HARD statements about the dex (even I just say "first glance, may be wrong") that are usually motivated by personal bias more so than any actual knowledge, understanding, mathemathics, or practical thinking.
Orc players better cut it out. Chaos players want the position of most hated by devs back. Because when we lose it gives us something to fall back on to explain it .
Ok serious time. I think a good way to handle 40k as a game is to do the following.
Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions. Someone is going to end up at the bottom. But, with GW and 40k its pretty evident what are top notch factions in a historical context (eldar) and which continue to disappoint ( Chaos pre 8th and Orcs). With this information at hand you need to come to a form of acceptance when playing a low skewing faction.
Example. As a chaos player I will never have the breadth of choices and power levels that Imperial players enjoy. We get our own fun stuff and some leftover FW kits but overall chaos is a after thought. I am ok with this. I knew this going into collecting chaos and I have little expectations of this situation improving.
Imperial factions sell very well and are the poster boys/girls of the setting. Expect much of the focus to be on them.
If you cannot handle these truths (and how they apply to Orks) then this is not the game/hobby for you. Because in many years little has changed (mostly true with a few swings). While I cannot explain why Eldar stay top level from edition to edition I can say that it is probably the safest non-imperial choice when it comes to power level.
And imho, once you start accepting things you can start to have fun and not care about who is at the top tables. At least it worked for me.
I'm hoping that the point changes (Basic infantry more expensive, vehicles cheaper) is a game wide change they'll be pushing out soon.
We're looking at these "inane" changes in a vaccum but it may make sense when Guardsmen start to cost 6 points and knights cost an arm and a leg, as well as other factions dont have terrible transports.
That being said there are clearly some crazy changes in the codex, KMKs being worse and costing 50% more, Flashgitz coming up and costing more and the obvious and not-so-subtle teleport everything build, which I personally think is gakky game design that subtracts agency from players.
TL;DR Cost changes may make no sense but wait for the CA, as they would've been designed around the same time as the codex.
As a chaos player I'd just like to point out that I've never felt like chaos has been neglected as a whole. Maybe imperials get some more releases, but that's to be expected. As far as 8th edition goes, Chaos is in a great position and hopefully orks join us because of this new codex.
Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions.Someone is going to end up at the bottom.
That is true. Someone always is at the very bottom, the question is the size of the gap between the top armies and the bottom armies. Lets say the difference between the best sm army and some fringe build is 5-10%. Then it is no problem to pick the weaker army. Specially if army esthetics play a role in picking up an army.
The problems start when the gap turns in to something like 50% or 75%, because then someone who picks the odd army will struggle with the best army possible to play against casual lists from a good codex. and when the gap becomes bigger then 50% it gets very unfun for the weak army player, because then his opponents have to bring bad armies, play bad and even then they may accidently win.
I know little about orcs other then them being an army that playse a swarm that goes to time every game. But I think what the orc player worry about is the gap between their update stuff and what is considered a normal army in w40k right now. And I think they are in their right to do so. Because if the orc army does not produce a good or normal army, it is not like orcs are going to get an update in 2-3 months with a new bach of rules and models. Also considering that most orc players are ancient players that waited years for their army to get better, the fear of having to wait another 2-3 years for an update may be real. It maybe blinding them to some sort of good, new type of list too, but it is not like the fear is irrational. GW did make bad books in the past.
That being said there are clearly some crazy changes in the codex, KMKs being worse and costing 50% more, Flashgitz coming up and costing more and the obvious and not-so-subtle teleport everything build, which I personally think is gakky game design that subtracts agency from players.
I want to keep my optimism in light of the nice things observed in the previews. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to comment this (still, I think it's also reasonable to understand the mistrust Ork players have grown to have in all these years - can't one understand them?).
I agree wholeheartedly with this point of view (bolded). My fear is that this will lead to more gimmicks instead of a more organic approach to the game. There is no movement, just position and hope for a good roll helped by mechanics. A coin toss, if you will. A gimmick that will leave the army in the dust once the eventual nerf or counter is implemented.
Nonetheless, we could still have room for more in the upcoming codex. Fingers crossed.
Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions.Someone is going to end up at the bottom.
That is true. Someone always is at the very bottom, the question is the size of the gap between the top armies and the bottom armies. Lets say the difference between the best sm army and some fringe build is 5-10%. Then it is no problem to pick the weaker army. Specially if army esthetics play a role in picking up an army.
The problems start when the gap turns in to something like 50% or 75%, because then someone who picks the odd army will struggle with the best army possible to play against casual lists from a good codex. and when the gap becomes bigger then 50% it gets very unfun for the weak army player, because then his opponents have to bring bad armies, play bad and even then they may accidently win.
I know little about orcs other then them being an army that playse a swarm that goes to time every game. But I think what the orc player worry about is the gap between their update stuff and what is considered a normal army in w40k right now. And I think they are in their right to do so. Because if the orc army does not produce a good or normal army, it is not like orcs are going to get an update in 2-3 months with a new bach of rules and models. Also considering that most orc players are ancient players that waited years for their army to get better, the fear of having to wait another 2-3 years for an update may be real. It maybe blinding them to some sort of good, new type of list too, but it is not like the fear is irrational. GW did make bad books in the past.
Just because there has been one case of a greentide player slow playing his way to victory, doesn't mean that ork player=slow player. Let's put this meme to rest, it's direspectful for the ork players.
Table wrote: Orc players better cut it out. Chaos players want the position of most hated by devs back. Because when we lose it gives us something to fall back on to explain it .
Ok serious time. I think a good way to handle 40k as a game is to do the following.
Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions. Someone is going to end up at the bottom. But, with GW and 40k its pretty evident what are top notch factions in a historical context (eldar) and which continue to disappoint ( Chaos pre 8th and Orcs). With this information at hand you need to come to a form of acceptance when playing a low skewing faction.
Example. As a chaos player I will never have the breadth of choices and power levels that Imperial players enjoy. We get our own fun stuff and some leftover FW kits but overall chaos is a after thought. I am ok with this. I knew this going into collecting chaos and I have little expectations of this situation improving.
Imperial factions sell very well and are the poster boys/girls of the setting. Expect much of the focus to be on them.
If you cannot handle these truths (and how they apply to Orks) then this is not the game/hobby for you. Because in many years little has changed (mostly true with a few swings). While I cannot explain why Eldar stay top level from edition to edition I can say that it is probably the safest non-imperial choice when it comes to power level.
And imho, once you start accepting things you can start to have fun and not care about who is at the top tables. At least it worked for me.
I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.
ERJAK wrote: I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.
Bold of you to pretend anyone is whinier than Loyalist Marine players.
Table wrote: Orc players better cut it out. Chaos players want the position of most hated by devs back. Because when we lose it gives us something to fall back on to explain it .
Ok serious time. I think a good way to handle 40k as a game is to do the following.
Realize that some armies are always going to be at the bottom. That is the nature of having a diverse selection of factions. Someone is going to end up at the bottom. But, with GW and 40k its pretty evident what are top notch factions in a historical context (eldar) and which continue to disappoint ( Chaos pre 8th and Orcs). With this information at hand you need to come to a form of acceptance when playing a low skewing faction.
Example. As a chaos player I will never have the breadth of choices and power levels that Imperial players enjoy. We get our own fun stuff and some leftover FW kits but overall chaos is a after thought. I am ok with this. I knew this going into collecting chaos and I have little expectations of this situation improving.
Imperial factions sell very well and are the poster boys/girls of the setting. Expect much of the focus to be on them.
If you cannot handle these truths (and how they apply to Orks) then this is not the game/hobby for you. Because in many years little has changed (mostly true with a few swings). While I cannot explain why Eldar stay top level from edition to edition I can say that it is probably the safest non-imperial choice when it comes to power level.
And imho, once you start accepting things you can start to have fun and not care about who is at the top tables. At least it worked for me.
I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.
Yea but INQUISITION aren't a faction so they don't belong on this list.
ERJAK wrote: I wanna nip one thing in the bud right now: INQUISITION(and by extenstion Adeptus Ministorum) are the most hated by the devs. Chaos are the whiniest about the dev hate they get.
Bold of you to pretend anyone is whinier than Loyalist Marine players.
Now you just hold on there one millenia or so there Sonny Jim, Szarekh would like a quiet whisper.
at least the Imperium has Friends, Necrons want to soup up we have to work with other crazy Dynasties !
I THINK you'll find that Xenos players are the whiniest, as we had our most golden season in the sun as the first formation codex out the gate in 7th, and have since fallen the furthest.
Orks don't need to be individually terrible and were not for years. Choppas turning Tactical Dreadnought Armour into sturdy cardboard, burnas cutting right through marines in melee, bikes screening units behind them, bosses punching tanks to death - that all existed. For whole editions. There's zero reason GW couldn't make Ork units actually worth their points again instead of "balancing" by racing to the bottom of the points pile (or not).
Orks are DANGEROUS natural born warriros and soldiers. And often there are hordes of them. But they shouldn't be only dangerous AS a horde of hundreds of throwaway models screening a few actual threats. Of course this is almost exactly what GW wants to sell box after box of stuff, for every army. Points down, down, down, model count up. Understandable, but misguided, I feel. Model-count bloat was a huge factor in WHFB's death.
If they'd make a good codex that allow for rhino rushing truck boyz, dread mobs, Nob spam MSU "elite" armies, gunlines, weirdboy waaghs etc. they'd likely sell more and more expensive stuff than boxes and boxes of boyz (which are also cheap as chips on ebay et all) to foot slog or a few walkers to tellyport to each regular player that wants to be able to all of it if he choses to. They'd also potentially sell those different builds to the hardcore tourney crowd each time a FAQ or new Codex makes build X a tiny bit better.
Maybe they actually tried and failed. Maybe the lack of former staff that were huge Ork fans (Adrian Wood, Andy Chambers, tons of other WD and studio members showing their Orks in battle reports and articles) means they actually don't get player input from someone who cares or knows what Orks could be and used to be. The GSC "leak" talks about one designer crunching numbers and testing in his time off for better pricing in the codex. I very much doubt that was the case with Orks. Somehow GW mismanaged one really popular army that many people had some models from just because to something that barely hits the tables, is not popular even with their game designers and still gets questionable rules.
Their sales tactics are pretty weird, too. They could've used the reboxing with 32mm to double stormboyz/lootas with some less than 100% price increase. At least they could have bundeled the mek gunz that have close to 1:1 currency/points ratio in way too many currencies despite you being expected to bring several.
The only branch of GW studio that seems as passionate about Orks as they were 15 years ago is the design team. Outside of the painboy and the ancient the Ork range is solid to pure gold.
While there is alot that I am super pumped about, I am not that happy with a couple of things.
1) not only was the Thrakka new PrimeOrk model falce (GW just put out a resin version of the old one for pre-order), we also got a nerf on him with a 20 point increase in cost. No one was playing his to begin with.
2) GW decided that Orks have too good of saves to begin with as well as too many characters with invulns so they took away the KFF option from the normal Big Mek. Now if you want a KFF you need to run a Gorkanaut, Meka Dread, or Big Mek in Power Armor.
C'mon guys. As many of you I was very tired of index orks. It was a strong one, but in a codex world. There were not fun to play and not fun to play against. To the point I was really close to let the boyz down and start a new project.
But I just went through an extensive review of the codex, and honestly things are exactly as I hoped it was. It's not stupidly overpowered but it seems to be fully playable and enjoyable. With the different Kulturs you can build many different lists, fun, fluffy and dangerous (speed freaks, mek dakkaline, green tide, heavy walkers...).
I just don't understand you guys. I came on dakka thinking that ork players would rejoice over the codex.
And on the behalf of myself only, I just want to say to non-orks players that I' sorry about the crazy whining. Personally I'm a happy git.
Ive said exactly the same thing. The bigger stuff gets ie starting at nobz the points cost don't reflect Orks now over costed points costed stuff.
I do 7th and my gorkanaught got a rewrite, why
I done a quick experiment with dice only
1. Land raider Typhoon got 18 hits out of 22 (bolters/assault cannon)
2 gorkanaught with 3D6 shots(gees) big shooters and rokkits got 8 hits
The points cost is virtually the same though.
GW does hate ORks
Binabik15 wrote: Maybe the lack of former staff that were huge Ork fans (Adrian Wood, Andy Chambers, tons of other WD and studio members showing their Orks in battle reports and articles) means they actually don't get player input from someone who cares or knows what Orks could be and used to be.
The only branch of GW studio that seems as passionate about Orks as they were 15 years ago is the design team. Outside of the painboy and the ancient the Ork range is solid to pure gold.
While I really disagree with this "woe is me, the codex is falling" - this was the major issue.
Back in 2nd/3rd Orks were the second 40k army after Marines. They got new kits, plenty of face time in White Dwarf etc (which was arguably more important because the internet was less of a thing).
Then at some point this died. GW has said they do codexes when someone has inspiration to take the project on. Its clear that this inspiration disappeared for a decade.
Who knows maybe the desing team is super small, like 5 people and 4 of them play eldar of some sort. This way the eldar rules they crank up are at worse good as ally to other eldar lists. While other stuff is just copy pasted to save time working on some more eldar stuff. They also seem to have a huge fetish as big kits go. They try to give them very good rules when they come out. They can nerf them later on, but I don't think there were many big models that entered the game being not worth buying.
licclerich wrote: Ive said exactly the same thing. The bigger stuff gets ie starting at nobz the points cost don't reflect Orks now over costed points costed stuff.
I do 7th and my gorkanaught got a rewrite, why
I done a quick experiment with dice only
1. Land raider Typhoon got 18 hits out of 22 (bolters/assault cannon)
2 gorkanaught with 3D6 shots(gees) big shooters and rokkits got 8 hits
The points cost is virtually the same though.
GW does hate ORks
Gorkanaut is straight 18 shots now. Maybe you should wait until you have the book.
And I presume you mean the Landspeeder not the Landraider, which has considerably less durability?
I think most of the negative opinions on the ork stuff comes from two things: 1, we don't know all the small rule changes within the datasheets, and 2, we DO know all the changes to points.
We know GW did go out of their way to nerf straight green tides, at least by points. but here's the stuff we do know got changed (so far) with no points changes:
-Stormboyz got the ability to deep strike, and move 6" automatically with their advance rule (statistically worse but more reliable)
-Kommandos now get free tankbusta bombs per 5, and now add 1 to wound in cc against any target in a terrain piece.
-Boyz get a tankbusta bomb per 10
-Nobz get double choppa as a loadout option
-Killa Kanz get 2 new weapon options
-Gorkanauts get 18 shots on their main gun
-Morkanauts get another improved main gun we don't yet know
-Battlewagons have 2 new variants that cost 20 points less than the current base point cost (which are locked into 'ard case). One shoots twice if it moves under half, the other gets +D6 attacks on the charge and on a 4+ causes mortal wounds. Also, the deffrolla now sports AP-2 and 2 damage.
-Flash gitz get improved gun profiles with S6 and D2, also 4+ armor
-Trakktor kannon and KMK both get statline improvements, huge in the case of the trakktor
This is just what we know so far to be the case. You can look at flyers all day and go "WTF GEEDUBS" but you have no idea whether stats changed, like almost everything else inthe codex has.
To me, this codex looks like a labor of love with some obnoxious meddling from a legal department all too necessarily involved in the playing of the game.
If the absolutely horsegak restrictions of legal precedent set in the chapterhouse debacle weren't in place, you wouldn't see no model no rules. Thank your local 3rd party knockoff manufacturer for that policy and thank the UK courts for upholding it.
I think there are some interesting things in the new codex. personally I am going to try running 3 BW full of big choppa nobz, covered by an index big mek with kff on a bike for that 5++ on the BW. I do agree the book is weak, but at least some of our options went from terribad to average. I think the book is going to be in the lower middle tier and will be surprised to see any real placement in tournaments. They will still be able to take local tournaments, but nothing major.
Elbows wrote: ...outside of the Stompa being too expensive...
I'm starting to think that it's a feature, not a bug, that they overpriced the Stompa. Likely so no one actually buys the dang thing anymore and finds out how annoying it is to build.
Elbows wrote: ...outside of the Stompa being too expensive...
I'm starting to think that it's a feature, not a bug, that they overpriced the Stompa. Likely so no one actually buys the dang thing anymore and finds out how annoying it is to build.
I found it quite enjoyable to build. everything lined up properly and a lot of the large pieces made it a pretty simple kit... the GW plastic ones that is, now the forgeworld ones are... iffy.
I think the issue is that in general 40k players still have not realised how 8th edition works. They look at stat lines and points costs and then make all their judgements based on those and cry that the sky is falling.
From what we've seen of the new stratagems and Kulturs there's some potentially really filthy stuff in the Ork 'dex and even then there's a lot of really cool, really fluffy stuff too. People cry about 7 pt orks when really that's arguably still too cheap for what they offer and other factions are massive screwed over by obscenely overcosted troops choices. They also don't consider the sheer POWER of the re-worked ere' we go rule; giving every single unit with it a free command point re-roll in the charge phase and then you combine this with things like the Evil Sunz trait, Da Jump, Endless Green Tide (of traitors) stratagem the 90 boy list is actually stronger now than it was before despite the points increase.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah GW sure do love Eldar so much that's why the range has more outdated/old models than Orks at this point.
A bit of dissonance that comes from the rules team and the models team being separate groups. People in the rules team are really passionate about Eldar, people in the models team... well obviously not so much.
Karol wrote: Who knows maybe the desing team is super small, like 5 people and 4 of them play eldar of some sort. This way the eldar rules they crank up are at worse good as ally to other eldar lists. While other stuff is just copy pasted to save time working on some more eldar stuff. They also seem to have a huge fetish as big kits go. They try to give them very good rules when they come out. They can nerf them later on, but I don't think there were many big models that entered the game being not worth buying.
The GW design team nowadays is huge, like really huge compared to in the past.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah GW sure do love Eldar so much that's why the range has more outdated/old models than Orks at this point.
A bit of dissonance that comes from the rules team and the models team being separate groups. People in the rules team are really passionate about Eldar, people in the models team... well obviously not so much.
I presume you're basing this on a dev's statement rather than how you perceive the eldar codexes have been handled?
the_scotsman wrote: I think most of the negative opinions on the ork stuff comes from two things: 1, we don't know all the small rule changes within the datasheets, and 2, we DO know all the changes to points.
We know GW did go out of their way to nerf straight green tides, at least by points. but here's the stuff we do know got changed (so far) with no points changes:
-Stormboyz got the ability to deep strike, and move 6" automatically with their advance rule (statistically worse but more reliable)
-Kommandos now get free tankbusta bombs per 5, and now add 1 to wound in cc against any target in a terrain piece.
-Boyz get a tankbusta bomb per 10
-Nobz get double choppa as a loadout option
-Killa Kanz get 2 new weapon options
-Gorkanauts get 18 shots on their main gun
-Morkanauts get another improved main gun we don't yet know
-Battlewagons have 2 new variants that cost 20 points less than the current base point cost (which are locked into 'ard case). One shoots twice if it moves under half, the other gets +D6 attacks on the charge and on a 4+ causes mortal wounds. Also, the deffrolla now sports AP-2 and 2 damage.
-Flash gitz get improved gun profiles with S6 and D2, also 4+ armor
-Trakktor kannon and KMK both get statline improvements, huge in the case of the trakktor
This is just what we know so far to be the case. You can look at flyers all day and go "WTF GEEDUBS" but you have no idea whether stats changed, like almost everything else inthe codex has.
To me, this codex looks like a labor of love with some obnoxious meddling from a legal department all too necessarily involved in the playing of the game.
If the absolutely horsegak restrictions of legal precedent set in the chapterhouse debacle weren't in place, you wouldn't see no model no rules. Thank your local 3rd party knockoff manufacturer for that policy and thank the UK courts for upholding it.
Nobz with dual choppaz sound interesting, 5 strength 5 attacks per model could be fun but the lack of AP would make me hesitate to go for it. Would there be any reason to do this or is one better off going for the classic big choppa instead?
Nobz with dual choppaz sound interesting, 5 strength 5 attacks per model could be fun but the lack of AP would make me hesitate to go for it. Would there be any reason to do this or is one better off going for the classic big choppa instead?
Well...it's the cost of two boyz with 5/6 the attacks (well, 5/8 for a mob of 30), but +1S and better armor. 2 damage weapons could hurt though so they need to be in something unlike boyz who can suffer casualties a little more easily.
Boyz can be made S5 (Goff) and will benefit more from force multipliers like Ghaz or Warpath.
Karol wrote: Who knows maybe the desing team is super small, like 5 people and 4 of them play eldar of some sort. This way the eldar rules they crank up are at worse good as ally to other eldar lists. While other stuff is just copy pasted to save time working on some more eldar stuff. They also seem to have a huge fetish as big kits go. They try to give them very good rules when they come out. They can nerf them later on, but I don't think there were many big models that entered the game being not worth buying.
The GW design team nowadays is huge, like really huge compared to in the past.
Yep. Gone are the days where a codex was written by one person with "input" by other designers.
Each codex is a collaborative effort now. Some turn out better than others - this is nothing new.
Models wise, most of the elder range is over 20 years old so you can't exactly claim favouritism there..
Really - what options? They said on Twitch they're losing the kustom mega-blastas.
They have Kan Klawz and Drillas which are both 0 points and have different profiles. I thought they also got Dred Saws but as another user on the news thread pointed out that's most likely a new cheaper melee weapon option for Deff Dreads. So, amend my statement to "Killa Kanz and Deff Dreads get 1 new weapon option each".
I believe the Kan Klaw is the current AP-2 D3 weapon and the Drilla is AP-4 D2.
the_scotsman wrote: I think most of the negative opinions on the ork stuff comes from two things: 1, we don't know all the small rule changes within the datasheets, and 2, we DO know all the changes to points.
We know GW did go out of their way to nerf straight green tides, at least by points. but here's the stuff we do know got changed (so far) with no points changes:
-Stormboyz got the ability to deep strike, and move 6" automatically with their advance rule (statistically worse but more reliable)
-Kommandos now get free tankbusta bombs per 5, and now add 1 to wound in cc against any target in a terrain piece.
-Boyz get a tankbusta bomb per 10
-Nobz get double choppa as a loadout option
-Killa Kanz get 2 new weapon options
-Gorkanauts get 18 shots on their main gun
-Morkanauts get another improved main gun we don't yet know
-Battlewagons have 2 new variants that cost 20 points less than the current base point cost (which are locked into 'ard case). One shoots twice if it moves under half, the other gets +D6 attacks on the charge and on a 4+ causes mortal wounds. Also, the deffrolla now sports AP-2 and 2 damage.
-Flash gitz get improved gun profiles with S6 and D2, also 4+ armor
-Trakktor kannon and KMK both get statline improvements, huge in the case of the trakktor
This is just what we know so far to be the case. You can look at flyers all day and go "WTF GEEDUBS" but you have no idea whether stats changed, like almost everything else inthe codex has.
To me, this codex looks like a labor of love with some obnoxious meddling from a legal department all too necessarily involved in the playing of the game.
If the absolutely horsegak restrictions of legal precedent set in the chapterhouse debacle weren't in place, you wouldn't see no model no rules. Thank your local 3rd party knockoff manufacturer for that policy and thank the UK courts for upholding it.
Nobz with dual choppaz sound interesting, 5 strength 5 attacks per model could be fun but the lack of AP would make me hesitate to go for it. Would there be any reason to do this or is one better off going for the classic big choppa instead?
Take up fewer transport slots, better strength, amazing synergy with the new Loot It stratagem (trukk dies, congratulations your Nobz are now Primaris Marines with melee stats that make Reivers green with envy) and 5 points cheaper than the big choppa option. 14ppm for 5 S5 attacks, or 19ppm for 3 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks.
it its 300 point's im fielding 5. I'm not saying this is the way only way orks can be, obviously codex's change tactics and such as time goes on but for various reasons, I will state later I am currently unconvinced. Fast forward to the current codex, having all of this in my mind, when the buggy was smashed with a wrench I took this as a metaphor that 
