I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls," which seems to suggest at least some amount of attraction going on, although not necessarily actual liaisons. Is that an inconsistency on Dan Abnett's part, or is sexuality more of a "rare but extant" thing among Space Marines? Or are the Luna Wolves also an exception like the Space Wolves?
I could see marines having a “hey brah, brah, brah moments on the vengeful spirit”. I wouldn’t necessarily say they’re there to meet girls, but they do certainly have pleasure themselves with any means, ask Fulgrim’s legion.
Danielle Rae wrote: I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls," which seems to suggest at least some amount of attraction going on, although not necessarily actual liaisons. Is that an inconsistency on Dan Abnett's part, or is sexuality more of a "rare but extant" thing among Space Marines? Or are the Luna Wolves also an exception like the Space Wolves?
Rare, but extant.
There is nothing stated in the lore that marines suddenly become eunuchs during the astartes creation process. It is most likely that the psycho-indoctrination and the chemical cocktails kill their libido though, so they have less desire to do those things, but not NO desire.
pm713 wrote: All 40k Space Marines are asexual, the Space Wolves aren't an exception.
That has never been stated in the lore. In fact, quite the opposite has been strongly hinted at in multiple BL novels.
Depends on the writer. It’s all fiction. There’s no factual source of information. At best, certain elements become common and assumed... but it’s the entire galaxy we’re talking about.
In a universe where psycho indoctrination has some failures, to the point that marines embrace the “factual” forfeiture of their souls to chaos... deciding to get it on, even if rarely, doesn’t seem far fetched.
Danielle Rae wrote: I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls," which seems to suggest at least some amount of attraction going on, although not necessarily actual liaisons. Is that an inconsistency on Dan Abnett's part, or is sexuality more of a "rare but extant" thing among Space Marines? Or are the Luna Wolves also an exception like the Space Wolves?
You know, a man might be curious to meet girls for other reasons than sex or relationship. Maybe they are curious to see how they look like, or talk or behave in general afterall. Some Space Marines might have no clear memory of women and girls, living all their lives urrounded by their brothers and meeting mostly soldiers who are more often then not men. Perhapse they are interested in relationship with somethign very different from them. Space Marines are mostly asexual, but that doesn't mean they are deprived of romantic feelings. There is a lot of wiggle room there.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls,"
As I recall it was Imperial Army soldiers who were trying to meet women, and Loken was fairly disapproving.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls,"
As I recall it was Imperial Army soldiers who were trying to meet women, and Loken was fairly disapproving.
"These soldiers are gratifying a physiological urge that is responsible for the propagation of the human race across the stars, and the continuance of the species, including making new space marines. They are doing it in a manner that does not jeopardize the mission or unit cohesion in any obvious way. I disapprove because it hurts my delicate space marine sensibilities." -Loken
The topic of Space Marine genitalia or fertility seems to recur with depressing regularity on many forums and different message boards. I suspect this may be due to the portrayal of Space Marines increasingly like macho movie action heroes, which are a stereotypical masculine wish fulfillment fantasy: the ultra strong, supremely competent, long lived, fast, square jawed action hero. The problem is they are portrayed as if they are your standard Hollywood action hero rather than a more dehumanized warrior. When this portrayal comes up against their supposed monk-like lifestyle and focus on combat and duty over all else, raises the question in people about their manliness (i.e. their genitals or fertility). After all, in action movies, the macho hero also gets the girl (or at least is theoretically capable of getting the girl). The very possibility that Space Marines might not be able to do so or want to do so seems to sit uncomfortably with some people, which I suspect is the reason why this topic keeps occurring. They can't be a stereotypical wish fulfillment fantasy if they are not virile but instead neutered or infertile.
There is a line in an old codex about a space wolf (Lukas?) wolves making a pass at a woman, however personally I treat it as half remembered reflexes - so when they are feasting etc they fall into old habbits but its not something they can or would follow through on.
Are there any other examples at all? I don't know of any but I certainly haven't read every codex or BL book. I'm pretty comfortable with Space Marines being inhuman murder monks, though.
"Dehumanised" killing machines for whom duty overrides other desires works for me.
The psycho- and chem- "conditioning" they go through may as well make them as asexual as a eunuch. They may have the plumbing left (at least the waste disposal functions still work) but I doubt they still feel the urges of the flesh that they did when they were mere humans. All of that is controlled by the brain, anyway (it is our largest sexual organ). Rewiring the pleasure centres to other stimuli would do it (and more than likely done with chemical assistance).
Extreme physical training can suppress libido in regular humans.
Male AND female athletes. Given the larger muscle mass in marines, this also implies a greater maintenance to keep it, and a higher hormone soup to regulate it.
It doesn't matter if they don't or can't breed. It's not like their enhancements can be passed on to offspring anyway.
Once you can no longer breed, evolution no longer needs you.
They are all the product of these glands and organs implanted into a regular human (admittedly, tougher and hardier specimens, since they tend to come from stock on the less habitable worlds (Baal being a volcanic hell-hole, Fenris an ice-cube, etc. )
If they could, they wouldn't NEED to produce more marines using the geneseed and staged implantation of organs thing, they could just breed them.
chromedog wrote: "Dehumanised" killing machines for whom duty overrides other desires works for me.
The psycho- and chem- "conditioning" they go through may as well make them as asexual as a eunuch. They may have the plumbing left (at least the waste disposal functions still work) but I doubt they still feel the urges of the flesh that they did when they were mere humans. All of that is controlled by the brain, anyway (it is our largest sexual organ). Rewiring the pleasure centres to other stimuli would do it (and more than likely done with chemical assistance).
Extreme physical training can suppress libido in regular humans.
Male AND female athletes. Given the larger muscle mass in marines, this also implies a greater maintenance to keep it, and a higher hormone soup to regulate it.
It doesn't matter if they don't or can't breed. It's not like their enhancements can be passed on to offspring anyway.
Once you can no longer breed, evolution no longer needs you.
They are all the product of these glands and organs implanted into a regular human (admittedly, tougher and hardier specimens, since they tend to come from stock on the less habitable worlds (Baal being a volcanic hell-hole, Fenris an ice-cube, etc. )
If they could, they wouldn't NEED to produce more marines using the geneseed and staged implantation of organs thing, they could just breed them.
Actually it would be important for them to breed if it were possible simply because it would ensure that their offspring would continue to distribute the genes making descending males suitable for geneseed transplant. The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
It seems to me that Space Marines and probably Primarchs and possibly the Emperor too, must all be sterile. Are there any examples at all of Space Marines or Primarchs procreating? Of course absence of proof is not proof of absence, but it is evidence of absence. As for how much a Marine appreciates or recalls or still experiences the emotions related to sexual attraction, I was also under the impression that Space Wolves were more gregarious in this respect than their more monastic brethren, but I don't really know where I got that impression.
If marines do have the ability to impregnate a woman, the offspring would just be a normal human with the father's original DNA. Nothing about the space marine creation process alters the gonads (that is the actual scientific term which I find somewhat humorous) in any way. That is assuming that the chemical cocktails that are administered don't turn the marine sterile, or the psycho-conditioning doesn't kill libido completely.
Danielle Rae wrote: I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls," which seems to suggest at least some amount of attraction going on, although not necessarily actual liaisons. Is that an inconsistency on Dan Abnett's part, or is sexuality more of a "rare but extant" thing among Space Marines? Or are the Luna Wolves also an exception like the Space Wolves?
Rare, but extant.
There is nothing stated in the lore that marines suddenly become eunuchs during the astartes creation process. It is most likely that the psycho-indoctrination and the chemical cocktails kill their libido though, so they have less desire to do those things, but not NO desire.
pm713 wrote: All 40k Space Marines are asexual, the Space Wolves aren't an exception.
That has never been stated in the lore. In fact, quite the opposite has been strongly hinted at in multiple BL novels.
...what. It's pretty clear in the lore unless I missed the bit about space marines getting indoctrinated and physically changed*
*Except Space Wolves who are normal people just tall.
chromedog wrote: "Dehumanised" killing machines for whom duty overrides other desires works for me.
The psycho- and chem- "conditioning" they go through may as well make them as asexual as a eunuch. They may have the plumbing left (at least the waste disposal functions still work) but I doubt they still feel the urges of the flesh that they did when they were mere humans. All of that is controlled by the brain, anyway (it is our largest sexual organ). Rewiring the pleasure centres to other stimuli would do it (and more than likely done with chemical assistance).
Extreme physical training can suppress libido in regular humans.
Male AND female athletes. Given the larger muscle mass in marines, this also implies a greater maintenance to keep it, and a higher hormone soup to regulate it.
It doesn't matter if they don't or can't breed. It's not like their enhancements can be passed on to offspring anyway.
Once you can no longer breed, evolution no longer needs you.
They are all the product of these glands and organs implanted into a regular human (admittedly, tougher and hardier specimens, since they tend to come from stock on the less habitable worlds (Baal being a volcanic hell-hole, Fenris an ice-cube, etc. )
If they could, they wouldn't NEED to produce more marines using the geneseed and staged implantation of organs thing, they could just breed them.
Actually it would be important for them to breed if it were possible simply because it would ensure that their offspring would continue to distribute the genes making descending males suitable for geneseed transplant. The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
That's a really good point that I bet no one has considered.
If you're going to take away the top 1% of the gene pool in terms of Astartes suitability, and not let them reproduce, then you will gradually be removing the genetic capacity to produce these individuals.
Good reason to not have female astartes; even if those individual woman COULD be Space Marines it's more useful to leave them out to pass on their genes.
GW, we've just sorted it for you!
pm713 wrote: ...what. It's pretty clear in the lore unless I missed the bit about space marines getting indoctrinated and physically changed*
*Except Space Wolves who are normal people just tall.
To my knowledge, there is nothing in the lore that says that Space Marines are sterile, or incapable of having sex or feeling sexual attraction. In fact, there are numerous tidbits throughout the lore that hint at astartes feeling sexual attraction to women, or other astartes. It is very rarely acted on but it is there.
pm713 wrote: ...what. It's pretty clear in the lore unless I missed the bit about space marines getting indoctrinated and physically changed*
*Except Space Wolves who are normal people just tall.
To my knowledge, there is nothing in the lore that says that Space Marines are sterile, or incapable of having sex or feeling sexual attraction. In fact, there are numerous tidbits throughout the lore that hint at astartes feeling sexual attraction to women, or other astartes. It is very rarely acted on but it is there.
They get enough drugs and genetic alteration to give them acid spit, extra organs and the ability to eat peoples brains for knowledge. Then they get pumped full of drugs constantly to keep their weird new organs in check. Considering things like steroids can make you sterile it's not much of a stretch. Plus I've never come across anything that indicates marines feel sexual attraction.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Ginjitzu wrote: It seems to me that Space Marines and probably Primarchs and possibly the Emperor too, must all be sterile. Are there any examples at all of Space Marines or Primarchs procreating? Of course absence of proof is not proof of absence, but it is evidence of absence. As for how much a Marine appreciates or recalls or still experiences the emotions related to sexual attraction, I was also under the impression that Space Wolves were more gregarious in this respect than their more monastic brethren, but I don't really know where I got that impression.
Old emp did have children. They are called the sensei.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum.
I have the knowledge of how "DNA works" and I dont see why the process should render them sterile.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
The Progenoids definitely alter their DNA.
Have you read the codices or index astartes? All the progenoids do is absorb genetic information and mature as the astartes version of gonads containing the zygotes to grow a fresh crop of gene seed organs for a successor. They don't alter the host's DNA at all, and for all intents and purposes are completely inert.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
The Progenoids definitely alter their DNA.
Have you read the codices or index astartes? All the progenoids do is absorb genetic information and mature as the astartes version of gonads containing the zygotes to grow a fresh crop of gene seed organs for a successor. They don't alter the host's DNA at all, and for all intents and purposes are completely inert.
They also regulate all of the Marine's organs and his hormonal balances, and in older codices quite explicitly altered the Marine's DNA to make everything run smoothly. If this process went wrong it was a major reason behind an Initiate failing to become a Space Marine.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
The Progenoids definitely alter their DNA.
Have you read the codices or index astartes? All the progenoids do is absorb genetic information and mature as the astartes version of gonads containing the zygotes to grow a fresh crop of gene seed organs for a successor. They don't alter the host's DNA at all, and for all intents and purposes are completely inert.
in older codices quite explicitly altered the Marine's DNA to make everything run smoothly. If this process went wrong it was a major reason behind an Initiate failing to become a Space Marine.
Wyzilla wrote: Actually it would be important for them to breed if it were possible simply because it would ensure that their offspring would continue to distribute the genes making descending males suitable for geneseed transplant.
That's a really good point that I bet no one has considered.
It's often brought up when people discuss the stupid and wasteful recruitment practices of certain Chapters, but then it's dismissed as unimportant. Let's have all suitable boys aged 10-12 do something really dangerous like walk across a desert, fight wild beasts or even each other, then after 90% have died we take the rest as recruits. Yeah...
The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
Space Marines could also just clone the boys should they believe they have a problem with their gene stock or change recruitment grounds (can they do that?). I always thought the genetic condition necessary to become a Space Marine were relatively common in the 10-25% of the male population range else recruitment would be very difficult for Marines.
Wyzilla wrote: Actually it would be important for them to breed if it were possible simply because it would ensure that their offspring would continue to distribute the genes making descending males suitable for geneseed transplant.
That's a really good point that I bet no one has considered.
It's often brought up when people discuss the stupid and wasteful recruitment practices of certain Chapters, but then it's dismissed as unimportant. Let's have all suitable boys aged 10-12 do something really dangerous like walk across a desert, fight wild beasts or even each other, then after 90% have died we take the rest as recruits. Yeah...
'
Sure, we as readers outside of the universe can view their practices as wasteful or weakening the gene pool of the population they recruit from, but the Space Marines don't view it that way. .The Space Marines, just like the Imperium, does not operate based on a rational materialist perspective. For all their denials, it is clear the Space Marines are just as religious as the followers of the Ecclesiarchy, just varying in the details. The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
Iracundus wrote: Sure, we as readers outside of the universe can view their practices as wasteful or weakening the gene pool of the population they recruit from, but the Space Marines don't view it that way. .The Space Marines, just like the Imperium, does not operate based on a rational materialist perspective. For all their denials, it is clear the Space Marines are just as religious as the followers of the Ecclesiarchy, just varying in the details. The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
They don't really need physical finess in my opinion. They will receive a brand new body anyway and they haven't hit puberty yet. Space Marine aren't trained as much as they are built. They don't need to spend a second doing physical conditioning or learning how to shoot in adverse situation or to operate and communicate in the cacophony of battles. They have special organs that allow them to do that as naturaly as breathing. But you are right about Space Marines valuing immensely martial traditions and superstition far more than any rational argument.
The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
Space Marines could also just clone the boys should they believe they have a problem with their gene stock or change recruitment grounds (can they do that?). I always thought the genetic condition necessary to become a Space Marine were relatively common in the 10-25% of the male population range else recruitment would be very difficult for Marines.
It's common initially. But over the course of ten thousand years you have a Chapter like the Blood Angels conscripting mass amounts of the feral world male children that will end up dying, but even if they survive they are still effectively removed from the breeding population. On top of that the naturally hostile conditions of the planet are also whittling away at the population, likely taking out chunks of those also passing the traits increasing the odds of gene seed acceptance. That's not going to spell low attrition rates and high levels of acceptance from that population in the distant future. Then there's other issues to, as taking the young males from a feral world population could possibly doom the family unit. If you're a small tribe living in a completely hostile environment and the Chapter takes a couple boys from your tribe, that's on top of child mortality rates and cause of violent death by animal or disaster. You could lose a sizable chunk of your male population that would endanger the tribe's collective survival. Having a trait that increases odds of gene seed acceptance is a net negative in the eyes of natural selection, not a boon.
Iracundus wrote: The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
What's more, they might well be correct in that belief. Remember that the Emperor used warp-magic as much as science in creating the Primarch/Astartes project. We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
The example of the Afriel Strain indicates that an army of clones may end up being cursed.
Strength of spirit seems seems to matter and so does the type of spirit. Space Wolves and Ultramarines seem to recruit for different personalities and I think that may have a lot to do with gene seed compatibility.
Iracundus wrote: Sure, we as readers outside of the universe can view their practices as wasteful or weakening the gene pool of the population they recruit from, but the Space Marines don't view it that way. .The Space Marines, just like the Imperium, does not operate based on a rational materialist perspective. For all their denials, it is clear the Space Marines are just as religious as the followers of the Ecclesiarchy, just varying in the details. The Space Marines may believe that those boys that survive the various hardships of the trials show a strength of spirit that is just as important as genetic compatibility or physical fitness.
They don't really need physical finess in my opinion. They will receive a brand new body anyway and they haven't hit puberty yet. Space Marine aren't trained as much as they are built. They don't need to spend a second doing physical conditioning or learning how to shoot in adverse situation or to operate and communicate in the cacophony of battles. They have special organs that allow them to do that as naturaly as breathing. But you are right about Space Marines valuing immensely martial traditions and superstition far more than any rational argument.
Yet, in another thread, you stated the exact opposite:
"Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy."
And ofc they need training. Their organs do not teach them to...
The issue with the Astartes upgrade process, especially on feral worlds, is that every male you remove from the population that meets the acceptance markers is removing that individual from the breeding population in order to pass those traits on. Meaning that the traits must firstly be passed on by the mother and not the father, and that feral world recruitment is always going to be a nightmare due to a lack of compatible boys.
Space Marines could also just clone the boys should they believe they have a problem with their gene stock or change recruitment grounds (can they do that?). I always thought the genetic condition necessary to become a Space Marine were relatively common in the 10-25% of the male population range else recruitment would be very difficult for Marines.
It's common initially. But over the course of ten thousand years you have a Chapter like the Blood Angels conscripting mass amounts of the feral world male children that will end up dying, but even if they survive they are still effectively removed from the breeding population. On top of that the naturally hostile conditions of the planet are also whittling away at the population, likely taking out chunks of those also passing the traits increasing the odds of gene seed acceptance. That's not going to spell low attrition rates and high levels of acceptance from that population in the distant future. Then there's other issues to, as taking the young males from a feral world population could possibly doom the family unit. If you're a small tribe living in a completely hostile environment and the Chapter takes a couple boys from your tribe, that's on top of child mortality rates and cause of violent death by animal or disaster. You could lose a sizable chunk of your male population that would endanger the tribe's collective survival. Having a trait that increases odds of gene seed acceptance is a net negative in the eyes of natural selection, not a boon.
Andersp90 wrote: Yet, in another thread, you stated the exact opposite:
"Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy."
Make up your mind.
Recruitment pool is poorer because less numerous, more likely to be filled with parasites and diseases, like ricket for example, which would decrease the chance of a human child surviving the implantation surgeries. A smaller poool reduces your chances of finding a rare talent for combat, especially since Space Marine recruit from a civilian population which might not nurture warfare beyond tribal skirmishes. It also reduces you chance of hitting a genius, brain needs good quality food and environment to develop properly. They aren't poorer because the children used to recruit Scions and Sisters a bigger, stronger, faster then those of the Space Marines even though it's probably the case on average. That's not really pertinent considering Space Marines are outfitted with new bodies.
I believe that the Marine's lack of interest in sexual activity was fully intended by the Emperor, the marines were meant to be pure conquers, not distracted by pillage and rapine. IIRC this was touted as a superiority over the Thunder Warriors, who by all accounts seem driven by more conventional desires. This is mostly speculation, but I think I've read of it somewhere, maybe in the Thunder Warrior HH book, or in some of the HH rule books. I could have just as easily made it up or incorrectly inferred it.
Lotus Corgi wrote: I believe that the Marine's lack of interest in sexual activity was fully intended by the Emperor, the marines were meant to be pure conquers, not distracted by pillage and rapine. IIRC this was touted as a superiority over the Thunder Warriors, who by all accounts seem driven by more conventional desires. This is mostly speculation, but I think I've read of it somewhere, maybe in the Thunder Warrior HH book, or in some of the HH rule books. I could have just as easily made it up or incorrectly inferred it.
I personnaly thought it was for religious reasons. Space Marines are an all male order of knightly monks. Monastic lifestyle usually dictate vows of chastity, temperence and poverty.
Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world, maintaining extensive sperm banks of recruits and doling out financial or social benefits to women willing to raise up recruits for them, eventually resulting in matriarchal noble houses dominating the civilian side of the planet, with a corresponding knightly self-identity emerging among later generations of space marines.
Or a chapter that solved its problem by straight-up cloning one ideal recruit, throwing the kids into a desert/slum/jungle, and recruiting the survivors.
Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
Andersp90 wrote: Yet, in another thread, you stated the exact opposite:
"Their recruitment pool is also a bit poorer, most Space Marines recruits from a single feral and feudal world where standards of living are low while Scions and Sisters recruit from children of nobles, war heroes and the likes from all around the Imperium explicitly trained to be elite soldiers from their early infancy."
Make up your mind.
Recruitment pool is poorer because less numerous, more likely to be filled with parasites and diseases, like ricket for example, which would decrease the chance of a human child surviving the implantation surgeries. A smaller poool reduces your chances of finding a rare talent for combat. It also reduces you chance of hitting a genius, brain needs good quality food and environment to develop properly. They aren't poorer because the children used to recruit Scions and Sisters a bigger, stronger, faster then those of the Space Marines even though it's probably the case on average. That's not really pertinent considering Space Marines are outfitted with new bodies.
This "SM vs scions" boils down to just two factors.
1. Talent
2. Size of recruitment pool.
Scions are not picked based on their talent, but by the sole fact that they are of noble blood.
Astates aspirants are picked soley on their talent for combat
Training can NEVER compete with raw talent. Just look at soccer. No amount of traning will EVER get you into the proffisional league if you do not have talent.
The scions only recruit from the noble houses which are a small minority on any world (save for mabye terra).
The astartes are picked from all walks of life. Their recruitment pool can count in the hundred of millions.
DA and ultramarines also pick from the noble houses - other chapters could too.
And it dosent matter if an astartes aspirant is dumb as a nail - because:
"Indoctrination – A Marine is more than a human with extraordinary powers. Marines have extraordinary minds as well! Just as their bodies receive 19 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described previously. For example, a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill an ordinary man. A Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the indoctrination too. Some Marines develop photographic memories. Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree. And thus is born another of the Imperium's finest warriors, an adamantium link in the armour of the Imperium."
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
Back on topic, what IS it with nerd fandoms where people's thoughts eventually turn towards the genitalia of whatever fictional thing they follow? I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
That is a possibility. But that doesn't mean the urge to procreate and the "equipment" by which to do it with is not there.
That 'urge' has been redirected.
Note the scene in Fulgrim in the theatre. While the regular humans in the audience get standard ol' naughty thoughts as a result of the performance, in the Marines it is channeled out as aggression instead, as that's explained as the only outlet they have for it.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
By changing the suppression or expression of different genes. This can be done in many ways without changing the DNA itself.
A good example would be myostatin. It is a hormon that inhibits muscle growth/insures that you do not grow more muscle than needed.
If you add an inhibitor of myostatin you get this:
Andersp90 wrote: Scions are not picked based on their talent, but by the sole fact that they are of noble blood.
What? Is that new fluff? They aren't from Schola Progenia anymore?
For Sisters it's still any war orphan, basically. Could be the daughter of a random guard.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
By changing the suppression or expression of different genes. This can be done in many ways without changing the DNA itself.
A good example would be myostatin. It is a hormon that inhibits muscle growth/insures that you do not grow more muscle than needed.
If you add an inhibitor of myostatin you get this:
I imagine being fictional post-human semi-divine Angels of Death that sexuality is a concept that they have abandoned with their departure from humanity.
I recall that in some books (possibly HH?) that marines have an appreciation for the female form but I imagine that it is more akin to how the venus di milo is a work of art as opposed to pornographic.
We know that during the marine-making process they undergo a lot of hormonal changes prior to puberty. This suggests that the astartes process heavily interferes with the standard maturation of an adolescent human male.
In the FFRPG Deathwatch marines have the 'chem-geld' trait making them immune to seduction. Other characterters in the FFRPGs can have this (sometimes Sisters, occassionally priests, some psykers and most assassins)
This doesn't mean they are literally gelded (it is 'chem' geld) but could mean something hormonal or even just psychoactive chemicals.
In terms of reproduction we understand that they're given a high amount of testosterone and other steroidal drugs/hormones. This has the effect in a human male of suppressing the messenger hormones that trigger the body to make sperm and testosterone. (Basically if you take supplementary testosterone, the body thinks your gonads are working fine so doesn't produce enough messenger so your own natural production is suppressed). So that could be an option for marines.
In addition we know that elements of the primarch/chapter DNA is incorporated into the aspiring astartes via gene therapy. I imagine that this would be needed so that the marine organs aren't rejected as well as to make the marine genetically a part of the chapter and by proxy making all of the marines in a chapter genetic brothers.
However it is unlikely that these changes are germ-line changes.Obviously in the year 40.999 it could be, but then it would be even MORE important to ensure that the marines don't reproduce with humans because then we'd have some sort of grandchildren of the primarchs, that's even assuming the child would work. I would hypothesise that the 'son' of a space marine (for a female wouldn't be compatible from the get-go) would also be incompatible with life for the fact that even if it did have the genetic code to grow the organs (and I assume that marines DONT since they need to be grown separately and implanted) that those organs wouldn't have the full primarch DNA required to support the new physiology that a marine has to enable those organs to 'take root' and function.
The bottom line is that marines aren't human, they don't have human relationships be they sexual or homosexual. They have a brotherhood, they have chapter-cultural influenced relationships with human (humans are weak, humans are like children, humans are noble, humans are...) and as we know they range from noble philosopher-warrior-kings to razing psychotic murderers.
I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
Most Space Marines are taken pre-puberty, put in camps and tested like mad, they become Space Marines with no real knowledge of women, that coupled with already knowing what gives them pleasure in worshipping the Emperor, training and killing means they simply don’t see much interest in the fairer sex.
I’d say just to be different Space Wolves are taken as adults but Russ actually believed that living a life, having a woman and possibly a family made soldiers fight harder because they knew what they were fighting to protect.
Then again, who knows what worshiping the Emperor actually involves? Maybe it means having sex to help spread the human race under the watchful and approving eyes of a Big E poster.
Nerak wrote: I was under the assumption that they’re sterile
It is implied, but not really stated outright. And at least anybody with knowledge of how DNA works who also knows that Space Marines undergo significant genetic alteration would be very confidant in saying that Space Marines would be very unlikely to create viable offspring with humans. The DNA in their Sperm would simply not be compatible with human Ovum. Best case scenario is you might have a hideously malformed baby that would most likely not make it through the entire pregnancy.
Combine this with large scale indoctrination and it is highly likely that they wouldn't have much of any interest in sexual reproduction. There could easily be exceptions, and there are some implied exceptions.
Nothing in the space marine augmentation process however would alter their genes to a "posthuman" level. All they have is an enhanced physiology through transplants, their genes should be relatively unaffected by the process beyond any other transplant surgery.
If their DNA is not altered then how come some astartes become wolves? How come some become albinos, some became black and some grow claws?
The organs don't alter their genes, but overhaul bodily functions by simple force. Nothing in the Melanchromic should change your genes by much, but it will flood your tissue with new melanin cells able to adjust their color to meet light exposure.
(Which is also a point to make, there should be no white or black marines because they adjust their skin tone to radiation exposure. Thus a Chapter may look pale skinned, but when deployed to a rad world they'd be dark brown or grey)
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
That's just the normal response for any healthy individual using a bolt action rifle.
I just wanted to re-iterate, that you can be sterile, and have an almost dead libido and still be capable of having sex. Nothing that has been discussed so far makes a marine "incapable" of engaging in sexual relations, merely unlikely to.
w1zard wrote: I just wanted to re-iterate, that you can be sterile, and have an almost dead libido and still be capable of having sex. Nothing that has been discussed so far makes a marine "incapable" of engaging in sexual relations, merely unlikely to.
Indeed. The testes would still be an important source of testosterone and unnecessary surgery to remove the phallus would be just inviting a risk of complications and serve no real purpose. The plumbing is still there and is functional, but the valve to operate it has gotten very rusty and would be difficult to turn.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I admit, every time I use multiple Drop Pods I can hear the tune "It's raining men!"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
Back on topic, what IS it with nerd fandoms where people's thoughts eventually turn towards the genitalia of whatever fictional thing they follow? I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
I think it's to do with the fact the sex and procreation are the fundamental driving force behind almost everything we do. Studies have shown that parts of the human brain thought to be related to the evaluation of potential sexual partners are generally always active in humans and (perhaps somewhat predictably) more so in men than in women, even homosexual men. Experimenters also found that heterosexual men don't limit these evaluations to women. They found that these regions will fire not only when shown images of women, but also of other men as well as images that only barely resemble the human form, such as lamps, mountains and loafs of bread! Although asexuality is real and supported by brain scan evidence, it is very rare, and the vast majority of us, men especially, are basically scientifically verifies perverts.
Jokes aside though, there is a precedent for homosexual indoctrination being an effective part of a militarized society. Consider the Spartiate class of classical Spartan society: probably the single most effective combat troops of their time, but also an institutionally homosexual society that considered women as mere vessels for procreation, with true love a thing reserved between males.
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
The people of Ultramar also do engage in eugenics. People harp about Macragge being a utopia but forget that it's common practice for Macraggites to leave any sickly children out in the wild to die of exposure and only raise those born healthy.
Wyzilla wrote: The people of Ultramar also do engage in eugenics. People harp about Macragge being a utopia but forget that it's common practice for Macraggites to leave any sickly children out in the wild to die of exposure and only raise those born healthy.
Good point, that. It's not (officially at least) a Chapter-run eugenics program but Marneus Calgar, Lord Macragge, Lord Defender of Greater Ultramar doesn't disapprove too much if the citizens cull the weak from the herd. In Ultramar everyone is happy about serving the Emperor, and those who say differently quietly disappear in the night (instead of being publicly burned as heretics).
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
Wow, the Ultramarines doing something sensible again. I sometimes wonder if that's what Guilliman really had over his brother-primarchs: he wasn't the best but he was the one to think of the obvious, non-Grimdark (or at least less-Grimdark) solution to problems.
Danielle Rae wrote: Wow, the Ultramarines doing something sensible again. I sometimes wonder if that's what Guilliman really had over his brother-primarchs: he wasn't the best but he was the one to think of the obvious, non-Grimdark (or at least less-Grimdark) solution to problems.
The Ultramarines recruit from more than just Maccrage if I'm not mistaken, but from the entire Realm of Ultramar. That certainly gives them a much bigger population to recruit from and be more picky with their aspirants as a result. Plus the Realm of Ultramar are amongst the most developped wolrd in the Imperium, recruitment is far easier and faster than having to run around, finding bands of nomad hunter-gatherer to request to take their pre-pubecent sons.
Danielle Rae wrote: Now I kind of want to fluff a Space Marine chapter as engaging in subtle eugenics within their recruitment world.
Look no further than the ever-efficient Ultramarines. Sure, there's no mention of a eugenics program to spread the traits needed to accept their geneseed, but they recruit from many worlds and work hard to keep the population safe and sound. They too use potentially deadly tests to get recruits but seeing as the locals consider it a great honor to have a relative that became a marine I'd guess they don't take all the kids from one family. The new marine might not have children of his own but the Ultras make sure his brothers and sisters live to pass on the traits.
Wow, the Ultramarines doing something sensible again. I sometimes wonder if that's what Guilliman really had over his brother-primarchs: he wasn't the best but he was the one to think of the obvious, non-Grimdark (or at least less-Grimdark) solution to problems.
Logistics and support structure was originally his shtick. He recruited more marines, used them wisely, and when he conquered worlds he set them up with strong defences, government, and trade with Ultramar, further expanding his potential recruitment pool.
Danielle Rae wrote: I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
However when listening to the Horus Rising audiobook, the narrator at one point seems to remark that the Marines on board the Vengeful Spirit hung out with the remembrances to "meet girls," which seems to suggest at least some amount of attraction going on, although not necessarily actual liaisons. Is that an inconsistency on Dan Abnett's part, or is sexuality more of a "rare but extant" thing among Space Marines? Or are the Luna Wolves also an exception like the Space Wolves?
*HeadDesk* Imperial Militia Marines. Not Space Marines. Those are normal humans, at least one of which gets lucky with a certain combat photgrapher. I get OP getting confused, but the fact that this thread went so deep into the 'I don't care about the fluff, my marines are virile" route is depressing.
*HeadDesk* Imperial Militia Marines. Not Space Marines. Those are normal humans, at least one of which gets lucky with a certain combat photgrapher. I get OP getting confused, but the fact that this thread went so deep into the 'I don't care about the fluff, my marines are virile" route is depressing.
I dont know...this thread has been surprisingly intelligent and well thought out in comparison to some of the other threads that have tread upon this issue.
The latest black legion book has a 1k sons sorc that seems to really appreciate the beauty in woman...Several times...though it does not go farther than that.
My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
rayphoton wrote: I dont know...this thread has been surprisingly intelligent and well thought out in comparison to some of the other threads that have tread upon this issue.
The latest black legion book has a 1k sons sorc that seems to really appreciate the beauty in woman...Several times...though it does not go farther than that.
In my opinion, traitor Marines are bit different. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a more or less normal sexuality provided they were never psycho-indoctrinated not to which many warbands probably don't care to do. I don't imagine new recruits from, let's say the Night Lords or the Emperor's Children to care to sterilise or deprive their recruits from their sexuality.
Historically the male devotees of the goddess Astarte were gelded, and made into eunuchs.
Where 40k borrows from Frank Herbert's Dune, there was a very long-winded bit of exposition in God-Emperor of Dune wherein Leto describe the links he sees between sexuality and aggression.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
Might be an easier fix to some problems than "dont as dont tell".
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
Lets see - they are a worthless - fragile heap of flesh for a "sterilized murder machine. Also - where is that confirmed? I think it was the 4th eddition space marine codex which had a detailed list of the process to become a space marine. It was something like 16 steps. Detailing removal of unneeded organs and implanting of superior astartes organs. It's like something out of Frankenstein.
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
At the end of the day, GW clearly just wants to avoid the issue presented in this question altogether. I doubt that they will ever address it directly one way or the other. To an extent, Space Marines are hyper-romanticized feudal knights, and you don't see the question of sex directly addressed in epic poetry or Arthurian legend or what have you, either, even if it is alluded to. I personally think we're fortunate that GW doesn't feel the need to dive into these kinds of details at length and they prefer to tread the ground of romantic legend instead of trying to nail everything down in a realistic way. Space Marines are an archetype and sexual relationships are not a necessary part of that archetype.
I would disagree that marines are an archetype. They might pull from some ideas of other "perfect warriors" through out literature and history but that just gives them character - the defining characteristic of space marines is that they are can no longer even be considered human. They are monsters - but these monsters fight for righteousness!
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
Xenomancers wrote: I would disagree that marines are an archetype. They might pull from some ideas of other "perfect warriors" through out literature and history but that just gives them character - the defining characteristic of space marines is that they are can no longer even be considered human. They are monsters - but these monsters fight for righteousness!
That just makes it a clever interpretation of the archetype. The romantic ideal of a stewardly or monastic warrior who cherishes honor and duty above all else is pretty hard to relate to on a human level, if you're being honest. So it makes sense in this context that such characters would be presented as monsters or otherwise inhuman when compared to your average Joe. As the image of martial perfection they've lost their humanity.
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
Luciferian wrote: I doubt that they will ever address it directly one way or the other. To an extent, Space Marines are hyper-romanticized feudal knights, and you don't see the question of sex directly addressed in epic poetry or Arthurian legend or what have you, either, even if it is alluded to.
We must have read very different legends then because one of the central plot of Arthurian legends is that of Gueunièvre and Lancelot relationship. Arthur himself is born out of basically the rape of his mother by his father Uther. Mordred is the son of Arthur and his half-sister also through rape, this time of Arthur, and incestious feeling of his sister towards him and many more. I get the point that indeed, Space Marine are pseudo-knights, but the example isn't very good. It actually looks more like the sanitised version developped in the 19th century if chivalry than the original material of the 12th century.
We must have read very different legends then because one of the central plot of Arthurian legends is that of Gueunièvre and Lancelot relationship. Arthur himself is born out of basically the rape of his mother by his father Uther. Mordred is the son of Arthur and his half-sister also through rape, this time of Arthur, and incestious feeling of his sister towards him and many more. I get the point that indeed, Space Marine are pseudo-knights, but the example isn't very good. It actually looks more like the sanitised version developped in the 19th century if chivalry than the original material of the 12th century.
Right but they don't come right out and spell it out in detail because they don't have to. It's enough just to know the relationships between the characters. I get that children have parents who conceive them and all that, but Arthurian legend doesn't take its time to have that talk about knightly birds and bees, just like GW hasn't ever directly addressed Space Marine birds and bees.
Insectum7 wrote: I admit, every time I use multiple Drop Pods I can hear the tune "It's raining men!"
But on the original song it was clearly heterosexual, or possibly bisexual, men!
Spoiler:
Ginjitzu wrote: Studies have shown that parts of the human brain thought to be related to the evaluation of potential sexual partners are generally always active in humans and (perhaps somewhat predictably) more so in men than in women, even homosexual men. Experimenters also found that heterosexual men don't limit these evaluations to women. They found that these regions will fire not only when shown images of women, but also of other men as well as images that only barely resemble the human form, such as lamps, mountains and loafs of bread!
Did you saw that result and made the conclusion that men are evaluating lamps, mountains and loaf of bread as sexual partners, or did you saw that result and made the conclusion that it likely meant that this part of the brain was not only used for the evaluation of sexual partners, but also for a bunch of other things?
Did you saw that result and made the conclusion that men are evaluating lamps, mountains and loaf of bread as sexual partners, or did you saw that result and made the conclusion that it likely meant that this part of the brain was not only used for the evaluation of sexual partners, but also for a bunch of other things?
Come on, you've never seen a really good-looking lamp before?
Dakka Wolf wrote: I’ve always imagined it to be something like the Emperor’s own version of the Butcher’s Nails, the Space Marines simply get a bigger endorphin release from training and warfare and get off on those activities far more than sex.
*Start to aim the bolter*
*Moans*
*Really put the target into the iron sight*
*Start moaning louder*
*Release the bolt*
rrRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHhhhh!
Whatever floats your boat, although to be fair I tend to avoid the weights area in the gym of an afternoon because it seems to have exactly this scene playing out.
Insectum7 wrote: I admit, every time I use multiple Drop Pods I can hear the tune "It's raining men!"
But on the original song it was clearly heterosexual, or possibly bisexual, men!
Spoiler:
While the original video (and oh yeah I watched the video before posting originally ) is hetero, I think it's widely recognized as a gay anthem. Also suspiciously it's a disco hit released in the 80s.
(or is that the joke? - it's hard to tell sometimes)
Somebody went through a lot of trouble to make that and I can only applaud them in my most secret place of my heart.
That somebody was Jim Holloway, a sci-fi/fantasy illustrator of popular gaming franchises such as D&D and Battletech. Somebody PDFd the original publication for the image, Dragon Magazine, 1994, here: https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg204.pdf Article includes new moves using Action Points in Space Hulk.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
Did you saw that result and made the conclusion that men are evaluating lamps, mountains and loaf of bread as sexual partners, or did you saw that result and made the conclusion that it likely meant that this part of the brain was not only used for the evaluation of sexual partners, but also for a bunch of other things?
The conclusion wasn't my own, that's just how it was presented in the BBC documentary I was watching. The pictures of the objects were zoomed or cropped in such a way as to suggest that they vaguely resembled boobs, bums or "badger's dens," even though they quite obviously weren't any of those things. When similar objects were shown with all straight lines, right angles and no curves, the brain regions just sat quietly.
Xenomancers wrote: My personal opinion is they do not have genitalia - they are removed during the process. Other organs are inserted which serve more important purposes for a murder machine. Which is what a marine is.
What purpose would that even serve at all, nevermind it's been expressly confirmed to not be the case?
Lets see - they are a worthless - fragile heap of flesh for a "sterilized murder machine. Also - where is that confirmed? I think it was the 4th eddition space marine codex which had a detailed list of the process to become a space marine. It was something like 16 steps. Detailing removal of unneeded organs and implanting of superior astartes organs. It's like something out of Frankenstein.
Considering that Emperor's Gift makes a joke about space marine impotency as an Inquisitor is simultaneously impressed and disappointed when showering with a Grey Knight (who doesn't even understand the joke, somebody else has to explain it to him), they aren't sexually mauled in any manner beyond their own psychology. Furthermore no organs are removed in the production of a Marine, a Marine is solely made by adding transplant organs to the body with nothing removed. Removing the testicles in particular would be moronic as it would be removing the source of testosterone in the body, which is critical for the creation of a space marine in the first place. I would advise to re-read material instead of relying on fogged memories.
Xenomancers wrote: I would disagree that marines are an archetype. They might pull from some ideas of other "perfect warriors" through out literature and history but that just gives them character - the defining characteristic of space marines is that they are can no longer even be considered human. They are monsters - but these monsters fight for righteousness!
Space marines are literally just Imperial Knights from the Holy Roman Empire. The Free Imperial Knights were a group of knights established in the 14th century after multiple civil wars and bickering nobles changing sides constantly due to loyalties complicated by land ownership and the issue of feudal obligations. The Free Imperial Knights, unlike other Knights, held their land directly from the Holy Roman Emperor bar none other. Thus they owed fealty exclusively to the Emperor and obeyed no other authority, and would immediately assemble when called to war by him. Considering how much of 40k is just repainted Fantasy, I'd be shocked if GW wasn't familiar or purposefully copied the Free Knights from the HRE when establishing Space Marine lore.
Ginjitzu wrote: The conclusion wasn't my own, that's just how it was presented in the BBC documentary I was watching.
Oh, so it's just the stupid BBC messing up science and putting up stupid myth in the open for sensationalist purposes again, I guess.
Reminds me of this:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18237
So to sum the story up as I understand it: The experiment shown in the documentary was a dramatization; the genuine color experiments done with the Himba, some years before, used a different sort of stimuli and a different experimental method; the stimuli shown in the documentary were modeled on those used by Paul Kay and others in experiments on other groups; but in all of the relevant experiments, the dependent measure was reaction time (in finding a matching color or an oddball color), not success or failure.
The BBC's presentation of the mocked-up experiment — purporting to show that the Himba are completely unable to distinguish blue and green shades that seem quite different to us, but can easily distinguish shades of green that seem identical to us — was apparently a journalistic fabrication, created by the documentary's editors after the fact, and was never asserted by the researchers themselves, much less demonstrated experimentally.
You'll find the stupid myth that Himba can't see green because they don't have a word for it plastered all over the internet because of just BAD reporting on the part of the BBC.
Screw the BBC. Unless I've read the actual research papers, or at least some vulgarization of it that I can trust, I will consider what they say to be junk.
[edit]Of course it's entirely on the BBC and not on you, please don't take it as an attack on you or anything [/edit]
Duskweaver wrote: We know that psychic blanks are incompatible with Astartes geneseed, so it is entirely possible that a certain strength of soul is required to make the process work.
Just coming back to this. There's a Grey Knights marine in the Emperor's Gift that's a Blank. Not just an Astartes, but a Grey Knight of Titan.
Who? That sounds wrong as GK are meant to be all psykers so having someone whose existence hurts them is weird.
I'm not sure where they got the part about him becoming a pariah. I don't recall that from the novel.
Having not yet read that novel, is he explicitly described as a 'Pariah' as in a psychic blank, or is he merely a 'pariah' as in metaphorically an 'outcast' because he's no longer part of a squad or brotherhood (or even in the original Tamil sense of a member of a caste devoted to a particular ritual role and therefore forced to live apart)?
Wyzilla wrote: He's not a blank, he's a weird reflective psyker who acts as a kind of psychic mirror.
Hyperion was the mirror psyker, not Phlegyras.
I have the Ebook version so took a quick look. The guys at lexi were right. He was a null (Phlegyras). I had forgotten all about it.
"The Inquisition made use of psychic nulls, mortals casting no soul-echo in the warp, as anathema to all psychic activity in their proximity. Such creatures were useful as weapons, in their own servile, incorruptible ways, but it took effort just to stand near the hollow man. I wondered how he was even alive, and what genetic aberration allowed him to be born.
Outwardly, he was one of us – his bulky physique was unarguably the result of Adeptus Astartes genetic enhancement – yet he stood unarmed and unarmoured, clad only in a patchwork grey robe that had clearly seen better years. Eyes of unremarkable blue watched each of us in turn before resting on the coffin we’d carried, until he lowered his shaved head in a nod of greeting.
‘Who speaks for the fallen?’
My revulsion got the better of me. ‘What are you?’ I asked.
‘Focus,’ Dumenidon hissed.
I cleared my throat, forcing myself to look at the figure. ‘Hyperion of Castian speaks for the fallen. Who bears our slain to the Dead Fields?’
‘Phlegyras of Titan will bear your slain to the Dead Fields."
And
"Even meeting his eyes made me want to spit, knowing there was no soul beyond them. Knowledge of my hatred’s irrationality was no salve against its heat"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
Back on topic, what IS it with nerd fandoms where people's thoughts eventually turn towards the genitalia of whatever fictional thing they follow? I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
Fembot threads can get frickin hilarious to be fair.
Ginjitzu wrote: The conclusion wasn't my own, that's just how it was presented in the BBC documentary I was watching.
Oh, so it's just the stupid BBC messing up science and putting up stupid myth in the open for sensationalist purposes again, I guess.
Reminds me of this:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18237
So to sum the story up as I understand it: The experiment shown in the documentary was a dramatization; the genuine color experiments done with the Himba, some years before, used a different sort of stimuli and a different experimental method; the stimuli shown in the documentary were modeled on those used by Paul Kay and others in experiments on other groups; but in all of the relevant experiments, the dependent measure was reaction time (in finding a matching color or an oddball color), not success or failure.
The BBC's presentation of the mocked-up experiment — purporting to show that the Himba are completely unable to distinguish blue and green shades that seem quite different to us, but can easily distinguish shades of green that seem identical to us — was apparently a journalistic fabrication, created by the documentary's editors after the fact, and was never asserted by the researchers themselves, much less demonstrated experimentally.
You'll find the stupid myth that Himba can't see green because they don't have a word for it plastered all over the internet because of just BAD reporting on the part of the BBC.
Screw the BBC. Unless I've read the actual research papers, or at least some vulgarization of it that I can trust, I will consider what they say to be junk.
[edit]Of course it's entirely on the BBC and not on you, please don't take it as an attack on you or anything [/edit]
I had no idea the BBC had such a bad reputation for misreporting science. Considering they're beholden to the British public, rather than advertisers, actually led me to believe that they're probably more reliable than any other network. I guess sensationalism isn't relegated to commercial interests. Thank you for informing me.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Astartes sexuality?
Well, simple. The marines are all gay. 100% gay. That's why there is no female space marine: no het, no bi marine, so noone wants to bring women into the chapter.
That's the only plausible explanation.
I knew it would only be a matter of time.
Back on topic, what IS it with nerd fandoms where people's thoughts eventually turn towards the genitalia of whatever fictional thing they follow? I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
Fembot threads can get frickin hilarious to be fair.
Well, if you think I'm a bot there's not much I can do that 1. would convince you otherwise and 2. be worth the time to do so, but on the whole I've enjoyed reading about the marine creation process and gak so I'm happy
Edit: Aha, I've been informed that fembot means something different here than on some other forums I've been on. I apologize for my misunderstanding.
Danielle Rae wrote: I was under the impression that, apart from the Space Wolves and post-heresy Slaaneshi types, Space Marines were essentially asexual.
Space Marines are frat bro jocks, so they are definitely not asexual. They're all gay and perverted.
The Space Wolves are definitely into bestiality. The "Imperial Fists" and "Crimson Fists" are self-explanatory.
Just Tony wrote: I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
Fembot threads can get frickin hilarious to be fair.
Well, if you think I'm a bot there's not much I can do that 1. would convince you otherwise and 2. be worth the time to do so, but on the whole I've enjoyed reading about the marine creation process and gak so I'm happy
Since Just Tony was talking about sex questions on Transformers forums, I don't think “fembot threads” are about you, unless you can somehow turn into a car or a truck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ginjitzu wrote: I had no idea the BBC had such a bad reputation for misreporting science. Considering they're beholden to the British public, rather than advertisers, actually led me to believe that they're probably more reliable than any other network. I guess sensationalism isn't relegated to commercial interests. Thank you for informing me.
You are welcome, it was an unexpected disappointment for me too!
Ginjitzu wrote: The conclusion wasn't my own, that's just how it was presented in the BBC documentary I was watching.
Oh, so it's just the stupid BBC messing up science and putting up stupid myth in the open for sensationalist purposes again, I guess.
Reminds me of this:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18237
So to sum the story up as I understand it: The experiment shown in the documentary was a dramatization; the genuine color experiments done with the Himba, some years before, used a different sort of stimuli and a different experimental method; the stimuli shown in the documentary were modeled on those used by Paul Kay and others in experiments on other groups; but in all of the relevant experiments, the dependent measure was reaction time (in finding a matching color or an oddball color), not success or failure.
The BBC's presentation of the mocked-up experiment — purporting to show that the Himba are completely unable to distinguish blue and green shades that seem quite different to us, but can easily distinguish shades of green that seem identical to us — was apparently a journalistic fabrication, created by the documentary's editors after the fact, and was never asserted by the researchers themselves, much less demonstrated experimentally.
You'll find the stupid myth that Himba can't see green because they don't have a word for it plastered all over the internet because of just BAD reporting on the part of the BBC.
Screw the BBC. Unless I've read the actual research papers, or at least some vulgarization of it that I can trust, I will consider what they say to be junk.
[edit]Of course it's entirely on the BBC and not on you, please don't take it as an attack on you or anything [/edit]
I had no idea the BBC had such a bad reputation for misreporting science. Considering they're beholden to the British public, rather than advertisers, actually led me to believe that they're probably more reliable than any other network. I guess sensationalism isn't relegated to commercial interests. Thank you for informing me.
Science reporting is oft a tricky subject due to the hyperbolic nature of the news versus the rather slow crawl of learning that is science. News wants big headlines with big updates and great leaps forward, while in truth science moves like a snail in a slow reverse current of molasses. If you want to know what's what in any scientific related news, always read the study itself if you can obtain a copy, or search for a reputable summary/review by others in the same field as the paper's subject. The news is just going to tell you cancer is solved whenever somebody manages to reduce the proliferation of a specific tumor in a rat's bloodstream, hark about how the singularity is upon us whenever any kind of progress is made with drone AI that is about as intelligent as a cockroach, and claim that nuclear fusion is just twenty years away(tm). It could be the most reputable news organization in the world, but it's still not going to be terribly reliable compared to the source itself.
Just Tony wrote: I'm dealing with this crap almost daily on the Transformers forums, I don't need that gak here.
Fembot threads can get frickin hilarious to be fair.
Well, if you think I'm a bot there's not much I can do that 1. would convince you otherwise and 2. be worth the time to do so, but on the whole I've enjoyed reading about the marine creation process and gak so I'm happy
Since Just Tony was talking about sex questions on Transformers forums, I don't think “fembot threads” are about you, unless you can somehow turn into a car or a truck.
Thank you for answering that correctly while I was away. Love you too.
Ginjitzu wrote: The conclusion wasn't my own, that's just how it was presented in the BBC documentary I was watching.
Oh, so it's just the stupid BBC messing up science and putting up stupid myth in the open for sensationalist purposes again, I guess.
Reminds me of this:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18237
So to sum the story up as I understand it: The experiment shown in the documentary was a dramatization; the genuine color experiments done with the Himba, some years before, used a different sort of stimuli and a different experimental method; the stimuli shown in the documentary were modeled on those used by Paul Kay and others in experiments on other groups; but in all of the relevant experiments, the dependent measure was reaction time (in finding a matching color or an oddball color), not success or failure.
The BBC's presentation of the mocked-up experiment — purporting to show that the Himba are completely unable to distinguish blue and green shades that seem quite different to us, but can easily distinguish shades of green that seem identical to us — was apparently a journalistic fabrication, created by the documentary's editors after the fact, and was never asserted by the researchers themselves, much less demonstrated experimentally.
You'll find the stupid myth that Himba can't see green because they don't have a word for it plastered all over the internet because of just BAD reporting on the part of the BBC.
Screw the BBC. Unless I've read the actual research papers, or at least some vulgarization of it that I can trust, I will consider what they say to be junk.
[edit]Of course it's entirely on the BBC and not on you, please don't take it as an attack on you or anything [/edit]
I had no idea the BBC had such a bad reputation for misreporting science. Considering they're beholden to the British public, rather than advertisers, actually led me to believe that they're probably more reliable than any other network. I guess sensationalism isn't relegated to commercial interests. Thank you for informing me.
always read the study itself if you can obtain a copy, or search for a reputable summary/review by others in the same field as the paper's subject.
Most people simpley wont be able to read and understand even a simple paper.
.
[/edit]