While I haven't made the transition yet to 8th eddition and haven't bought a single codex of the 8th eddition so far, I did got curious about the Primaris Marine fluff and read their entries on 40K popular online encyclopedia and frankly from their resumé, I don't get the hate their fluff got. It seems fairly good, it's not really exceptional, but it does remind me of the fluff of the Grey Knights. It seems to make sense within the setting which is already filled with secret armies, secret organisation and superhuman warriors. So where's all the beef comming from?

In all fairness as much as I wanted to see change n the stagnant 40k universe even I have to say that the primaris marines are a very kludgey and han fisted deus ex machina. The whole idea that somehow cawl lives 10,000 years with this armor that can revive robot Google man but does nothing really, and builds up all these new super marines but just keeps sticking them in the freezer, develops these new weapons and armor and grab vehicle and just keeps storing them and chaos never gets to them, the inquisition never catches on, etc.

Then the old guard marines just accept these big new mystery meat marines from planet x? OK, descendants of the ultra marines might accept it because rawbutt girly man decrees it to be so, but spafewolves? Blood angels? Imperial fists?

I mean I still don't even think I fully understand how it was supposed to have happened. Just suddenly there's a big flash of plot and POOF! this whole new gigantic super army is taken out of a fridge somewhere, defrosted and sent into action? I still don't really get it. Where we're all these thousands of marines stored for so long? Where was all this new technology being developed and stored? Where we're all these new vehicles and suits of armor being made? Why we're they never deployed during the 10,000 years of crisises and near destructions of the imperium?

I get the general idea that they we're commissioned like 10,000 years ago and such but I still don't understand how the army's we're built up and kept in secret along with all this technology and kept in secret so long.

I wouldn't use enthusiast forums as a gauge when it comes to getting a realistic assessment of how much something is liked or not.

That said, Primaris are about as blatant a marketing vehicle for getting crotchety old Marine players to re-buy an army as it gets.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
In all fairness as much as I wanted to see change n the stagnant 40k universe even I have to say that the primaris marines are a very kludgey and han fisted deus ex machina. The whole idea that somehow cawl lives 10,000 years with this armor that can revive robot Google man but does nothing really, and builds up all these new super marines but just keeps sticking them in the freezer, develops these new weapons and armor and grab vehicle and just keeps storing them and chaos never gets to them, the inquisition never catches on, etc.

Then the old guard marines just accept these big new mystery meat marines from planet x? OK, descendants of the ultra marines might accept it because rawbutt girly man decrees it to be so, but spafewolves? Blood angels? Imperial fists?

I mean I still don't even think I fully understand how it was supposed to have happened. Just suddenly there's a big flash of plot and POOF! this whole new gigantic super army is taken out of a fridge somewhere, defrosted and sent into action? I still don't really get it. Where we're all these thousands of marines stored for so long? Where was all this new technology being developed and stored? Where we're all these new vehicles and suits of armor being made? Why we're they never deployed during the 10,000 years of crisises and near destructions of the imperium?

I get the general idea that they we're commissioned like 10,000 years ago and such but I still don't understand how the army's we're built up and kept in secret along with all this technology and kept in secret so long.

If I have to believe Lexicanum, Primaris were produced and stored with their arsenal on the flagship of Cawl, some sort of Space Hulk transformed in a giant laboratory, factory and Skitarii. The fact that it's large, but mobile makes it ideal to produce a large quanity of experimental and highly sensitve equipment in secret. The Mechanicus has done something similar in the past with the two moons of Mars and plenty of other ships, outposts and isolated Forge World. The Imperium has already demonstrated its capacity to produce massive world-like mobile stations like the one of the Dark Angel or the Imperial Fist.

epronovost wrote:


If I have to believe Lexicanum, Primaris were produced and stored with their arsenal on the flagship of Cawl, some sort of Space Hulk transformed in a giant laboratory, factory and Skitarii. The fact that it's large, but mobile makes it ideal to produce a large quanity of experimental and highly sensitve equipment in secret. The Mechanicus has done something similar in the past with the two moons of Mars and plenty of other ships, outposts and isolated Forge World. The Imperium has already demonstrated its capacity to produce massive world-like mobile stations like the one of the Dark Angel or the Imperial Fist.

Space is big and there are plenty of places to hide things. Humanity has a million world scattered through the galaxy, that's a tiny fraction of the number of stars. The majority of the galaxy, everywhere, is devoid of occupation, even in the 40k universe.

Somebody hiding something for 10,000 years is basically a blip compared to how long the Necrons have been hiding themselves.

I think the idea that the imperium has kept the existence of chaos a secret shows they could hide a big ship. They moved a moon to Saturn to help the secret grey knights no one knows about. It’s not beyond the pail that call kept it under wraps. And as for the accepting primaris then roboute arriving at the same time kind helps that one. Even non ultramarines got to respect a primarch. They are god like legends in the 40k setting. It wasn’t handled perfectly but it was ok by me. Seen worse things. Introduction of the tau was pretty rubbish in my opinion and as obvious a marketing ploy.

In answer to the OPs question, I think people on the internet just live to hate

As to the question of OP: The Primaris represent a shift of tone in 40k. Both lore "history" wise and in the Imperiums dogma. The primaris are progression, where up untill now everything has been stagnation. From a history perspective the events of the HH was a mythological time in 40k, but with the primaris (and rowboat gillyman) you suddenly have a faction that's pretty much entirely 30k. That's 10.000 years of lore that becomes completly irrelevant. There was a single being in the Imperium that had facts about the 30k times and that was a space wolf dreadnought Bjorn the fell handed. Now out of nowhere Cawl comes along who hung out with the primarchs and has created an army who are to 40k what the original space marines where to 30k. The history change of tone, making 30k much more tanginable in 40k, is making many people uneasy. It makes everything else less important and diminishes pretty much all actions of the in lore 10.000 years, including the actions of peoples own favourite factions.

The second reason people hate them is because of the fear that old marine models will be phased out and entirely replaced by the primaris, and ALOT of people are scared that their collections will become unusable. We do have examples of it happening with AoS, several armies never got integrated in the new system so many collectors time and effort did at that point feel like a waste. Bretonia and empire for instance did lose alot of models in the AoS revamp. People are afraid of losing their space marines to this. In the words of a small green filthy psyker xeno: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate".

As to my own opinion of the lore I don't really buy it. If Cawl has been around for 10.000years only building dudes, why didn't he help the dudes that where already around? The imperium went through 2 civil wars, 13 black crusades, the necrons awakening, the tyranids appearing and several waaaghs (among numerous other things) in the timespan of 10.000 years and not once did Cawl step up to do anything. He would have been completly useless if Guilliman hadn't happened to wake up and give orders around. I personally feel the forced tie in with the 30k era is absolutely useless in 40k. It took the Emperor maybe 100 years or so to build the original marines, I doubt Cawl needed 100X that times to improve on the formula. He's basicly been twiddling his thumbs for the better part of the entire age of the imperium for the sake of drama.

EDIT: The models are pretty damn cool though. I like the scale of them compared to other minis (especially guardsmen).

Another point that I think hasn’t helped is the HH series of novels has turned the heresey times into a tangible event rather than one shrouded in mystery and legend. They have been breaking that down for some time now and primaris are another example of it.

 Nerak wrote:
As to the question of OP: The Primaris represent a shift of tone in 40k. Both lore "history" wise and in the Imperiums dogma. The primaris are progression, where up untill now everything has been stagnation. From a history perspective the events of the HH was a mythological time in 40k, but with the primaris (and rowboat gillyman) you suddenly have a faction that's pretty much entirely 30k. That's 10.000 years of lore that becomes completly irrelevant. There was a single being in the Imperium that had facts about the 30k times and that was a space wolf dreadnought Bjorn the fell handed. Now out of nowhere Cawl comes along who hung out with the primarchs and has created an army who are to 40k what the original space marines where to 30k. The history change of tone, making 30k much more tanginable in 40k, is making many people uneasy. It makes everything else less important and diminishes pretty much all actions of the in lore 10.000 years, including the actions of peoples own favourite factions.

I personnaly think that 40K, or more accuratly 41K, lore is going to put an end to the decaying/stagnating Imperium. If 40K used to be the Middle-Ages of space, we are entering the Renaissance. A Primarch has returned; a treasure vault of technology from the birth of the Imperium has been openned; dogma is falling out of fashion; the territory of the Imperium is breaking appart, but the power its components is simultanously growing; wars are deadlier and more numerous than ever. I would even suspect that the upcomming Sister of Battle Codex will mention a later day schism between the old clerics in power within the Ecclesiarchy and reformists energised by the return of Guilliman and the rebrith of Celestine.

The second reason people hate them is because of the fear that old marine models will be phased out and entirely replaced by the primaris, and ALOT of people are scared that their collections will become unusable. We do have examples of it happening with AoS, several armies never got integrated in the new system so many collectors time and effort did at that point feel like a waste. Bretonia and empire for instance did lose alot of models in the AoS revamp. People are afraid of losing their space marines to this. In the words of a small green filthy psyker xeno: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate".

I totally get why people would be angry at the idea that Primaris Marines will phase out the older ones. While there is a possibility that both could co-exist within the lore and the tabletop, I do believe Space Marines are going the way of the dodos. I don't expect it to be anywhere as drastic as the Bretonnian's demise. Since this is perfectly understandable, I was mostly focused on why their lore is hated so much while their models aren't.

As to my own opinion of the lore I don't really buy it. If Cawl has been around for 10.000years only building dudes, why didn't he help the dudes that where already around? The imperium went through 2 civil wars, 13 black crusades, the necrons awakening, the tyranids appearing and several waaaghs (among numerous other things) in the timespan of 10.000 years and not once did Cawl step up to do anything. He would have been completly useless if Guilliman hadn't happened to wake up and give orders around. I personally feel the forced tie in with the 30k era is absolutely useless in 40k. It took the Emperor maybe 100 years or so to build the original marines, I doubt Cawl needed 100X that times to improve on the formula. He's basicly been twiddling his thumbs for the better part of the entire age of the imperium for the sake of drama.

I don't think Cawl has done nothing else, but build Primaris Marine and their equipment during 10K years. I would suppose he did a lot of ''mundane'' high ranking member of the Mechanicus stuff, like exercised a high political influence within the Church of Mars or lead a Skitarii and Legio Cybernetica Legion against the enemies of mankind once in a while or building weapons and armors for said Skitarii and war machine. Its just not the most important thing to mention and maybe, with time and new release, Cawl 10K long history will be more fleshed out. I mean, I don't even know the name of the leader of the Mechanicus let alone how he got the job and what he did and he or she must be a massively important character in the Imperium. He is certainly in the top 5 most powerful people within the Imperium if not the most powerful beside Guilliman and the Emperor himself. For all we know, maybe he's the guy who designed the SIsters armors and bolters.

Objectively, the primaris are the most obvious example of a change in tone in 40k lore. Moving away from stagnant, grim dark insanity into actual plot. That makes a lot of people uneasy, as before, 40k was, if not a blank canvas, than a sandbox with plenty place to write your own stories. As the plot progresses, it makes it easier to tell your stories, but harder to break away from the main thread.

Subjectively, there's tons of potential issues with their introduction. It's not quite as bad as if the two lost legions returned, but GW saying "surprise, there's a huge, secret, army!" strains the already threadbare logical framework of the 40k universe.

Finally, on a meta level, GW had clearly run out of marine kits to make, but marine kits are what sell. Instead of simply releasing new "true scale" kits (tactical, assault, devastator, terminator, scout) they created a new type of marine. It's a pretty transparent ploy.

It's a shame, because the models are great, and I have no real problems with them being shoehorned in.

I like to think of this like I like to think about Jurassic Park 3

You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.

Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.

That being said, the models themselves are pretty dope. lol

I don't like it because it seems like a transparent attempt to justify in universe the update of the Space Marine model line, by splitting it into two parts with different rules and fluff, instead of just saying up front that all marine kits will be in a new scale from now on. It seems superfluous and unnecessary to me.

I love the new models but their wargear options are non existent and iGuy’s comparison to the Rex and Spinosaur is spot on regarding their fluff.

Its reviled because its boring.

I mean, come on. The best you can do GW is "Space Marines are awesome! So we made even more awesome Space Marines that are better than regular Space Marines!!!" Space Marines were already fairly hyperbolic and a little OTT anyway. But they doubled down on that and made even more hyperbolic and OTT Space Marines.

There is no depth to it. If they had had the new fluff be "Guilliman and Cawl had a secret project going on to repair many of the degredations in Space Marine geneseed that had occurred over the last 10k years. The result is that every chapter's genetic flaws in their geneseed are now fixed with a new batch of fixed geneseed. The resulting marines are superior to marines created with the older flawed geneseed!" and not had them be even huger it might have been acceptable. A Primarch could justify fixing some genetic flaws, but creating marines that are to Space Marines what Space Marines are to normal humans was just lazy writing.

Andykp wrote:
I think the idea that the imperium has kept the existence of chaos a secret shows they could hide a big ship. They moved a moon to Saturn to help the secret grey knights no one knows about. It’s not beyond the pail that call kept it under wraps. And as for the accepting primaris then roboute arriving at the same time kind helps that one. Even non ultramarines got to respect a primarch. They are god like legends in the 40k setting. It wasn’t handled perfectly but it was ok by me. Seen worse things. Introduction of the tau was pretty rubbish in my opinion and as obvious a marketing ploy.

In answer to the OPs question, I think people on the internet just live to hate

Sad but all too true...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
I think the idea that the imperium has kept the existence of chaos a secret shows they could hide a big ship. They moved a moon to Saturn to help the secret grey knights no one knows about. It’s not beyond the pail that call kept it under wraps. And as for the accepting primaris then roboute arriving at the same time kind helps that one. Even non ultramarines got to respect a primarch. They are god like legends in the 40k setting. It wasn’t handled perfectly but it was ok by me. Seen worse things. Introduction of the tau was pretty rubbish in my opinion and as obvious a marketing ploy.

In answer to the OPs question, I think people on the internet just live to hate

They kept chaos secret? I thought they used the fear of chaos and the chaos gods to teroroze the citizens into obeying the emperor.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
Objectively, the primaris are the most obvious example of a change in tone in 40k lore. Moving away from stagnant, grim dark insanity into actual plot. That makes a lot of people uneasy, as before, 40k was, if not a blank canvas, than a sandbox with plenty place to write your own stories. As the plot progresses, it makes it easier to tell your stories, but harder to break away from the main thread.

Subjectively, there's tons of potential issues with their introduction. It's not quite as bad as if the two lost legions returned, but GW saying "surprise, there's a huge, secret, army!" strains the already threadbare logical framework of the 40k universe.

Finally, on a meta level, GW had clearly run out of marine kits to make, but marine kits are what sell. Instead of simply releasing new "true scale" kits (tactical, assault, devastator, terminator, scout) they created a new type of marine. It's a pretty transparent ploy.

It's a shame, because the models are great, and I have no real problems with them being shoehorned in.

I doncct mind the change in the imperial lore and the changes to the imperium. I mean, for 10,000 years the imperium has stagnated and decayed. There are vast institutions that exist solely to stamp out any trace of innovation or improvement. Progress is considered a illness of the mind. Honestly at times I just want to scream at the imperium "OH XXXX YOU!!! GO AHEAD AND XXXXING DIE ALREADY!!! "

I really would rather die than live in the imperium as itcs been presented for so long, I can't even play any imperial forces to be honest. I just get so tired of it's tired old lore and refusal to advance because "UGH! CHANGE BAD! 'MAKE THINGS BETTER '? HERESY!! PROGRESS EVIL!!! " that honestly I think it might be better for humanity to be destroyed rather than go on like that forever.

So I don't mind the fact that peolle have realized they have to stop stagnating if they want to survive, it sure took 'em long enough! I just feel it was way to much deus ex machina all at once. Also there needs to to a clear timeline for it and an explanation for all the questionn about it.

I just feel it was way to much deus ex machina all at once.

This. Plus it throws up over too many bits of older fluff - including some of the really well written or iconic stuff.

~ If Cawl is doing super-secret project......fine. As noted, the Imperium - hell, even just Mars - is a big place. But he's not. When we first 'meet' him he's hanging around a dig playing archeologist - something nothing to do with the primaris - and is apparently the *only person* to figure out what the pylons do....which is basically throwing out the Eisenhorn/Qixos fluff from Malleus that's one of the best 40k novels going. This is doubly annoying because this causes the coincidence THAT HE'S AT CADIA AT ALL and otherwise the whole storyline falls over because Cadia dies and Gulliman dies and the primaris never get woken up.

~ The whole "oh, but I made primaris with no drawbacks at all!" is one thing, but the fact that no nod is made at all to the Cursed Founding is annoying and the fact that apparently all Fabius Bile can do is stand off to one side going "why didn't I think of that?" is kind of insulting.

~ The 10,000 year old techpriest basically contradicts anything written for the adeptus mechanicus - especially Priests of Mars - talking about their functional lifespan. Added to the fact that at the point of his introduction, it was "belisarius who?" - I could see Gulliman tasking Fabricator-General Kane with this task, or one of the Ultramar tech-priests from the horus heresy series, but not random-dude-from-nowhere-in-particular.

the long and short answer is "it's change and 40k players are suprisingly resistant to change within the lore" I started playing 40k in 5th edition and every new unit has been met with resistance when first introduced, Stormraven and Stormcrow gunships, centurions, thunderwolf cavalry etc. the only fandom more obsessed with declaring their hate for the new in an attempt to prove how genuine their fandom is then 40k fans are SW fans

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
In all fairness as much as I wanted to see change n the stagnant 40k universe even I have to say that the primaris marines are a very kludgey and han fisted deus ex machina. The whole idea that somehow cawl lives 10,000 years with this armor that can revive robot Google man but does nothing really, and builds up all these new super marines but just keeps sticking them in the freezer, develops these new weapons and armor and grab vehicle and just keeps storing them and chaos never gets to them, the inquisition never catches on, etc.

Then the old guard marines just accept these big new mystery meat marines from planet x? OK, descendants of the ultra marines might accept it because rawbutt girly man decrees it to be so, but spafewolves? Blood angels? Imperial fists?

I mean I still don't even think I fully understand how it was supposed to have happened. Just suddenly there's a big flash of plot and POOF! this whole new gigantic super army is taken out of a fridge somewhere, defrosted and sent into action? I still don't really get it. Where we're all these thousands of marines stored for so long? Where was all this new technology being developed and stored? Where we're all these new vehicles and suits of armor being made? Why we're they never deployed during the 10,000 years of crisises and near destructions of the imperium?

I get the general idea that they we're commissioned like 10,000 years ago and such but I still don't understand how the army's we're built up and kept in secret along with all this technology and kept in secret so long.

OP here is a prime example of why. It's because some people just love to complain to the rafters about made up stories about people living in a fictional horror story of a future. For some people, this hobby might be all they have. I'm not sure if you've ever noticed the massive attraction in the gaming hobby to people with shall we say, less than average social skills? So as a coping mechanism, people tend to find things, love them, and then castle up and defend those things from any perceived threats. Gatekeeping a hobby also shows up here as well.

Notice how this poster constantly misspells Roboute Guilliman. This is the posters attempt to "mock and deride" a fictional character who is doing things to the story that he so very much loves. The use of the term Deus ex Machina is also inserted, so that we all can see how wonderfully big someones brain and vocabulary is, which of courses reminds the rest of us peasants to keep our place. There will be no toleration of these "new marines" here. I've seen countless threads on forums, reddit and other parts of the internet beating this topic to death. It never goes anywhere, because as I said in another thread on DakkDakka, just today in fact, that some people will like it and some wont. Why we must continue to argue about the most senseless of senseless topics is really beyond me at this point. However, I notice these same kinds of conflicts in nearly all aspects of life anyways, so maybe it's just hard coded into nerds genes(Did Cawl do that?)?

P.S. Techpriest I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that your post was the perfect example of what I want to get across here.

First off making jokes about guilleman's name is pretty much standard in 40k and doesn't mean you really hate him. Itcs a joke. Get the adeptus mechanics to install a sense of humor into you.

Secondly, the term "deus ex machina " is hardly high falutin' talk, it's become a pretty standard and well known issue in a lot of criticism of media and fiction.

Also I said I was tired of the old lore, not that I castles it up and defended it. I said I welcomed change to the stagnant imperium setting.

I don't/can't take the 40k setting too seriously, but I like the fiction set in it and admit some 40k booms are written by real masters. That doesn't mean I don't accept things changing.

But some things are jus too much radical change too fast and too out of sync with long established canon.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
First off making jokes about guilleman's name is pretty much standard in 40k and doesn't mean you really hate him. Itcs a joke. Get the adeptus mechanics to install a sense of humor into you.

Secondly, the term "deus ex machina " is hardly high falutin' talk, it's become a pretty standard and well known issue in a lot of criticism of media and fiction.

Also I said I was tired of the old lore, not that I castles it up and defended it. I said I welcomed change to the stagnant imperium setting.

I don't/can't take the 40k setting too seriously, but I like the fiction set in it and admit some 40k booms are written by real masters. That doesn't mean I don't accept things changing.

But some things are jus too much radical change too fast and too out of sync with long established canon.

All fair. I didn't mean to insinuate that YOU specifically were using dem fancy words, nor did I mean that you specifically casteling. I just wanted to use your post as an example, because a lot of your post structure shows up on the net, by people who are being serious about it rather than joking. But a lot of people do gatekeep the heck out of this hobby and it bugs me because we all know how those people drive away new fans, I've actually seen some gatekeepers harassing new players who have gone all in on the primaris line, almost to the point of becoming bullies.

For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

epronovost wrote:
While I haven't made the transition yet to 8th eddition and haven't bought a single codex of the 8th eddition so far, I did got curious about the Primaris Marine fluff and read their entries on 40K popular online encyclopedia and frankly from their resumé, I don't get the hate their fluff got. It seems fairly good, it's not really exceptional, but it does remind me of the fluff of the Grey Knights. It seems to make sense within the setting which is already filled with secret armies, secret organisation and superhuman warriors. So where's all the beef comming from?

a) because it was unnecessary, they did it so they could bring out new marines but still sell the old ones. Why do you think they got so quite about marines being able to become Primaris when a lot of us started saying that, that would mean old marines were going to be replaced b) it was badly written and introduced c) it changes the lore, all our current army are going to be replaced lore wise, except for characters so far there hasn't been a single marine turned into a Primaris and its been 200-300 years since the Indomitus crusade so only veterans are going to survive, so basically our army has just been replaced.

My personal problem with the primaris lore is that they are just blantantly better and the introduction was JUST as the best time possible.

1. Primaris are bigger, stronger, better equipped and so on. I can live with that. But the thing I find stupid that they are incorruptable and ALL the geneseed flaws are... Gone, solved. Sure, Cawl had 10000 years, and fhe SW and BA had their research destroyed at some point, but these flaws made the chapters distinct and different. Plus incorrubtable is plain stupid and even the GK lore was in that regard a bit stretched.

2. Cawl had those tens of thousand marines ready to go for apparently quite some time. They were commisioned byGuilliman, bsck then Lord Commander. He was mortally wounded in M31and for all intents and purposes dead for 10000 years. Sure, the Imperium hates new tech, but Cawl sitting on these super warriors for all that time seems stupid. Other primarchs were around for quite some time, why not get them on board with the project? Let them help with the introduction to the wider Imperium (I am thinking of a giant billboard with, lets say Vulkan, giving a thumbs up. "Vulkan, son ofthe Emperor, approves of these chaps!).
Also, Cawl apparently had a lot of hidden vaults with deep frozen Primaris hidden all over the Imperium and nobody saw that? No inquisitor thinking: Hmm, that Cawl chap is awfully secretive. Better check out his huge vaults all over the place!
Granted, this is probably I can understand the most. Stagnancy is kind of the main theme, but still, feels a bit hamfisted.

3. Ok, it is the 41st millenium. Guilliman is back and all the tens of thousands of Primaris flood the Imperium. And everybody is ok with that.

What?
For 10000 of years, there was stagnancy. And then, a Primarch returns and thousands of new super warriors suddenly appear, better than all existing marines? And virtually every chapter welcomes them with open arms?
Sorry, that is, in my eyes, boring and lazy. Chapters like the SW, always fiercly loyal, not adhering to the codex, picking fights with the inquisition, is suddenly like: whoa, we better take them guys, Guilliman said so! Or the Dark Angels, I simply cant imagine them accepting the Primaris with open arms.

To clarify: I kind of like the Primaris. The models are nice, I lime the rules and use them (with a bit of head canon). But the lore seems... Stretched and just boring. They could have done so much more, but the existing lore is, in my eyes, quite lame.

Andykp wrote:
Another point that I think hasn’t helped is the HH series of novels has turned the heresey times into a tangible event rather than one shrouded in mystery and legend. They have been breaking that down for some time now and primaris are another example of it.

Which is kinda funny, because for all the complaints of no fore shadowing, man is there a lot of talk of mass production of better marines in some of those books. Primaris are nothing but a 10k year old stalled project based on the attempts to repopulate devastated loyalist legions. Working on technical projects I entirely believe that kind of delay if the main project driver disappeared.

But I'm sure what chaps a lot of people is how the primaris were intended to simplify marines again. Geneseed flaws minimized and such. People like their shiny cod piece of +1 slightly different statistic and weapon load out bloated rules quite a bit. Particularly when the other option is collecting an entirely new army.

 Lum wrote:
My personal problem with the primaris lore is that they are just blantantly better and the introduction was JUST as the best time possible.

1. Primaris are bigger, stronger, better equipped and so on. I can live with that. But the thing I find stupid that they are incorruptable and ALL the geneseed flaws are... Gone, solved. Sure, Cawl had 10000 years, and fhe SW and BA had their research destroyed at some point, but these flaws made the chapters distinct and different. Plus incorrubtable is plain stupid and even the GK lore was in that regard a bit stretched.

2. Cawl had those tens of thousand marines ready to go for apparently quite some time. They were commisioned byGuilliman, bsck then Lord Commander. He was mortally wounded in M31and for all intents and purposes dead for 10000 years. Sure, the Imperium hates new tech, but Cawl sitting on these super warriors for all that time seems stupid. Other primarchs were around for quite some time, why not get them on board with the project? Let them help with the introduction to the wider Imperium (I am thinking of a giant billboard with, lets say Vulkan, giving a thumbs up. "Vulkan, son ofthe Emperor, approves of these chaps!).
Also, Cawl apparently had a lot of hidden vaults with deep frozen Primaris hidden all over the Imperium and nobody saw that? No inquisitor thinking: Hmm, that Cawl chap is awfully secretive. Better check out his huge vaults all over the place!
Granted, this is probably I can understand the most. Stagnancy is kind of the main theme, but still, feels a bit hamfisted.

3. Ok, it is the 41st millenium. Guilliman is back and all the tens of thousands of Primaris flood the Imperium. And everybody is ok with that.

What?
For 10000 of years, there was stagnancy. And then, a Primarch returns and thousands of new super warriors suddenly appear, better than all existing marines? And virtually every chapter welcomes them with open arms?
Sorry, that is, in my eyes, boring and lazy. Chapters like the SW, always fiercly loyal, not adhering to the codex, picking fights with the inquisition, is suddenly like: whoa, we better take them guys, Guilliman said so! Or the Dark Angels, I simply cant imagine them accepting the Primaris with open arms.

To clarify: I kind of like the Primaris. The models are nice, I lime the rules and use them (with a bit of head canon). But the lore seems... Stretched and just boring. They could have done so much more, but the existing lore is, in my eyes, quite lame.

Have you read "legion", where it has alpharius being shown a prophecy that basically said humanity was doomed ed to extinction one of two ways? One would destroy humanity within 100 hears of the Horus heresy but spare other intelligent life in the galaxy. The other would result in humanity stagnating and rotting for millennia, then being consumed by chaos and the result being the end of humanity and all other life in the galaxy.

These prophecies seemed pretty certain to come to pass one way or another. Maybe the primaris project was created to allow a plan C by creating and hiding a super "ace in the hole" that was only to be deployed when it seemed that chaos was on the endfe of over running humanity.

So basicallymit explains how and why the imperium knew to create them, build them up, store them and hold them in secret until they we're needed to tank the prophecies of humanity being doomed in either event.

It cheapens the lore of the space marines.

The whole point of the space marines was that they were ascended beyond simple humanity to be it’s saviours, and invariably failed and brought humanity’s doom. The irony being that even the most powerful human/post human being in the galaxy could not save humanity from itself and in the end we are all doomed.

All the flaws and the history are what made you fall in love with the marines despite the fact that they are post human killing machines. That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Then along comes these “moar awesomer” marines to take the place of the ones we have known and loved for decades. They don’t have the flaws and are better in every way. How fething boring can you get? So where’s the tragedy? Where’s the plight? It makes everything that happened before inconsequential if they can just force these marines into existence to pick up the slack for the rest of the imperium.

This also flies in the face of the established lore of 40k. It’s the dark ages of the future. There is no room for advancement. There is only ignorance, religion and war. I want 40k to be doomed. I don’t want to see a renaissance. That’s not what I signed up for with 40k. I want the most grim dark, hopeless, horrific fantasy space opera ever devised.

Also, I’ve been around the block with this hobby and had Fantasy destroyed right before my eyes. To watch GW do the same with Fenris, Baal and Cadia breaks my heart. To see it replaced by garbage lore and garbage rules is painful.

Don’t pander to the lowest common denominator GW. Have some self respect. There are more important things in this world than money like art and pride in your work.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It cheapens the lore of the space marines.

The whole point of the space marines was that they were ascended beyond simple humanity to be it’s saviours, and invariably failed and brought humanity’s doom. The irony being that even the most powerful human/post human being in the galaxy could not save humanity from itself and in the end we are all doomed.

All the flaws and the history are what made you fall in love with the marines despite the fact that they are post human killing machines. That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Then along comes these “moar awesomer” marines to take the place of the ones we have known and loved for decades. They don’t have the flaws and are better in every way. How fething boring can you get? So where’s the tragedy? Where’s the plight? It makes everything that happened before inconsequential if they can just force these marines into existence to pick up the slack for the rest of the imperium.

This also flies in the face of the established lore of 40k. It’s the dark ages of the future. There is no room for advancement. There is only ignorance, religion and war. I want 40k to be doomed. I don’t want to see a renaissance. That’s not what I signed up for with 40k. I want the most grim dark, hopeless, horrific fantasy space opera ever devised.

Also, I’ve been around the block with this hobby and had Fantasy destroyed right before my eyes. To watch GW do the same with Fenris, Baal and Cadia breaks my heart. To see it replaced by garbage lore and garbage rules is painful.

Don’t pander to the lowest common denominator GW. Have some self respect. There are more important things in this world than money like art and pride in your work.

It cheapens both:

-Regular marines are now second rate mass produced supersoldiers. It was fine for Custodes to be better at being an enhanced human because those can’t be mass produced, but now marines aren’t the shiny new double marines.

-Primaris are a gimmicky marketing driven double marine, which immediately comes across as tacky.

There’s about four or five ways they could have handled the lore side of this better with the same model release, just off the top of my head.

epronovost wrote:
I would even suspect that the upcomming Sister of Battle Codex will mention a later day schism between the old clerics in power within the Ecclesiarchy and reformists energised by the return of Guilliman and the rebrith of Celestine.

Yeah we really need YET ANOTHER take on the reformation. I mean, the one with Goge Vandire and Sebastian Thor is better than any recent fluff, and also part of the core, formative lore for Sisters of Battle, but we ned another one, right?

 Lum wrote:
My personal problem with the primaris lore is that they are just blantantly better and the introduction was JUST as the best time possible.

1. Primaris are bigger, stronger, better equipped and so on. I can live with that. But the thing I find stupid that they are incorruptable and ALL the geneseed flaws are... Gone, solved. Sure, Cawl had 10000 years, and fhe SW and BA had their research destroyed at some point, but these flaws made the chapters distinct and different. Plus incorrubtable is plain stupid and even the GK lore was in that regard a bit stretched.

2. Cawl had those tens of thousand marines ready to go for apparently quite some time. They were commisioned byGuilliman, bsck then Lord Commander. He was mortally wounded in M31and for all intents and purposes dead for 10000 years. Sure, the Imperium hates new tech, but Cawl sitting on these super warriors for all that time seems stupid. Other primarchs were around for quite some time, why not get them on board with the project? Let them help with the introduction to the wider Imperium (I am thinking of a giant billboard with, lets say Vulkan, giving a thumbs up. "Vulkan, son ofthe Emperor, approves of these chaps!).
Also, Cawl apparently had a lot of hidden vaults with deep frozen Primaris hidden all over the Imperium and nobody saw that? No inquisitor thinking: Hmm, that Cawl chap is awfully secretive. Better check out his huge vaults all over the place!
Granted, this is probably I can understand the most. Stagnancy is kind of the main theme, but still, feels a bit hamfisted.

3. Ok, it is the 41st millenium. Guilliman is back and all the tens of thousands of Primaris flood the Imperium. And everybody is ok with that.

What?
For 10000 of years, there was stagnancy. And then, a Primarch returns and thousands of new super warriors suddenly appear, better than all existing marines? And virtually every chapter welcomes them with open arms?
Sorry, that is, in my eyes, boring and lazy. Chapters like the SW, always fiercly loyal, not adhering to the codex, picking fights with the inquisition, is suddenly like: whoa, we better take them guys, Guilliman said so! Or the Dark Angels, I simply cant imagine them accepting the Primaris with open arms.

To clarify: I kind of like the Primaris. The models are nice, I lime the rules and use them (with a bit of head canon). But the lore seems... Stretched and just boring. They could have done so much more, but the existing lore is, in my eyes, quite lame.

So far there is no geneseed flaws but if they get rid of geneseed flaws and make marines more realistic and take away their flavour I'll stop collecting them.

So many reasons.

1. Blatant marketing ploy. I think many gamers felt their intelligence was being insulted with all the "check out these great new Marines" stuff GW was pumping out, especially when bigger, true-scale Marines is something players had been asking for for a while but these ones then turned out to be completely new and different. The fact the kind of suck in-game doesn't help.

2. The lore goes against a lot of the central themes of 40k and stretches credulity beyond its limit. Stagnation and near-regression is one of the defining features of the Imperium but suddenly up pops Cawl with not only a whole new army, but one that's also more advanced than anything seen in the last 10,000 years. The ties back to 30k also just seemed unnecessary. To use a different movie analogy to the Jurassic Park one, it feels a lot like the first scene with Vader in Rogue One: thrown in purely to give the fans some link to previous movies. All this new stuff being linked to 30k just feels like a marketing ploy where someone has sat down and said "people like 30k so let's link all this new stuff to 30k".

3. They missed a great chance to do something genuinely interesting with the lore. The return of a Primarch and the sudden appearance of a bunch of new Marines under his control, combined with a galaxy-spanning Warp rift, was the perfect opportunity to really progress the story in a meaningful way. Imagine not just an Imperial civil war, but an actual split, both physically thanks to the rift and ideologically as Guilliman attempts to restore the Emepror's vision of the Imperium in the face of all the various organisations opposed to that. Instead we get huge, momentous events that basically change nothing.

The only thing they could really do to progress the story is have the Emperor die. Then watch the Imperium try to keep itself together in the end battles as Terra is overwhelmed by deamons and Ultramar becomes the new homeworld of the Imperium

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

Oh my god! Have you seen star wars fandom? The toxicity there is somewhere between Russian chemical waste depot and the fukishima reactor core!

Just have a look at this, and be advised there is A very offensive image here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sg29Sa6QFes&t=377s

Could this be any more toxic an image?

Some of the actors accosiated with star wars have received death threats and such levels of hate they have had to shut down their social media. George Lucas sited the hateful toxic nature of star wars fandom after the prequels as one reason he sold the rights off, he didn't want to deal with the fans anymore.

I know we had gamergate and there was that ridiculous EP of Law & order SVU about these ridiculous stereotypes of gamers kidnapiing and terrorizing a female game developer, and there was he recent death caused partially by a gamer swatting someone (mostly by a trigger happy cop who decided to kill someone for simply not obeying orders screamed at him on his own property just to show what a badass he was and how youcre gonna obey or die.)

But honestly, there are fhandoms as bad or worse than gaming in general and 40k in particular...

Brutus_Apex wrote:. . That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Speak for yourself, I could give 2 gaks about them, actually I couldn't because givins free and my gaks cost.

I really have no problem with how hamfisted the primaris, compared to some of the early fluff it's actually reasonable. You know, like space marines are criminals, etc

I'm rather "skeptical" about the fact that both Guilliman and the Primaris were accepted by the Imperium so easily. That one was resurrected and the others created seems to make sense to me, but the fact that they weren't destroyed seems strange. Wouldn't a large portion of the Imperium not trust Guilliman's return; what if he was daemon possessed? What if it wasn't the "real one"? What if he was a traitor like half of his brothers?

Of course, Guilliman would have supporters and some people, like more radical inquisitors and Magos for example, would have been fine with new tech or playing with geneseed., but others would have considered that as a sign that Guilliman was corrupted and needed to die. If there has at least been mention of Guilliman having to crush his opponents to have the Primaris (and himself) accepted or him having to negotiate an exception for them like promise you will never sanction any other changes to the geneseed of Space Marine and will never investigate again the work of the Emperor and do X or Y penence for it. It would have been better.

epronovost wrote:
I'm rather "skeptical" about the fact that both Guilliman and the Primaris were accepted by the Imperium so easily. That one was resurrected and the others created seems to make sense to me, but the fact that they weren't destroyed seems strange. Wouldn't a large portion of the Imperium not trust Guilliman's return; what if he was daemon possessed? What if it wasn't the "real one"? What if he was a traitor like half of his brothers?

Of course, Guilliman would have supporters and some people, like more radical inquisitors and Magos for example, would have been fine with new tech or playing with geneseed., but others would have considered that as a sign that Guilliman was corrupted and needed to die. If there has at least been mention of Guilliman having to crush his opponents to have the Primaris (and himself) accepted or him having to negotiate an exception for them like promise you will never sanction any other changes to the geneseed of Space Marine and will never investigate again the work of the Emperor and do X or Y penence for it. It would have been better.

Well if guilleman was so huge he might be accepted as a primarch on sight. Also I suppose all the imperial diviners and readers of the emperor's tarot might be getting messages and readings that show a hero returning. Plus the emperor him-xxxxing-self admitted guilleman into the golden throne chamber and he was there for a while, so yeah, he was accepted as a hero returned.

Plus it was the imperium's darkest hour (holy $&%# that's really saying something!) And peolle wanted a hero. In comes guilleman in his holy armor and peolle are like "Yay! Our savior is here! Save us, guilleman! "

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

Oh yeah, in six years I've only met one player in person that I didn't like. Online though there is some toxicity.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

Oh yeah, in six years I've only met one player in person that I didn't like. Online though there is some toxicity.

I've yet to experience this 'toxicity', other than pathetic people thinking that not wanting marines to be women, is being sexist.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

Oh my god! Have you seen star wars fandom? The toxicity there is somewhere between Russian chemical waste depot and the fukishima reactor core!

Just have a look at this, and be advised there is A very offensive image here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sg29Sa6QFes&t=377s

Could this be any more toxic an image?

Some of the actors accosiated with star wars have received death threats and such levels of hate they have had to shut down their social media. George Lucas sited the hateful toxic nature of star wars fandom after the prequels as one reason he sold the rights off, he didn't want to deal with the fans anymore.

I know we had gamergate and there was that ridiculous EP of Law & order SVU about these ridiculous stereotypes of gamers kidnapiing and terrorizing a female game developer, and there was he recent death caused partially by a gamer swatting someone (mostly by a trigger happy cop who decided to kill someone for simply not obeying orders screamed at him on his own property just to show what a badass he was and how youcre gonna obey or die.)

But honestly, there are fhandoms as bad or worse than gaming in general and 40k in particular...

Is that safe for work? Otherwise I'll check it out tonight. You're right about the star wars fandom as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
For the record I don't do the gatekeeping stuff, we need more payers. The closest thing I get to the castle thing is occasionally telling someone, firmly, that I am sick and tired of the constant insults and jokes about gamers and to STFU.
.

Also fair, there is more toxicity within the gaming community than any other group, with the exception of political and religious groups. One of the reasons I like tabletop games so much is that no one says these things (unless their morons) in public. They don't act (usually) like they do online.

40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

I agree, like everything, we have our bad elements. But compared to others, well, there is a reason I do not play online games much anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
40K is one of the friendliest and well mannered gaming communities out there.

Oh yeah, in six years I've only met one player in person that I didn't like. Online though there is some toxicity.

I've yet to experience this 'toxicity', other than pathetic people thinking that not wanting marines to be women, is being sexist.

I've seen some toxicity. Luckily it gets dealt with pretty fast due to the face to face nature of our hobby.

Speak for yourself, I could give 2 gaks about them, actually I couldn't because givins free and my gaks cost.

I used "We" as a generalization.

Seems like you cared enough to point out that you don't care though.

epronovost wrote:
While I haven't made the transition yet to 8th eddition and haven't bought a single codex of the 8th eddition so far, I did got curious about the Primaris Marine fluff and read their entries on 40K popular online encyclopedia and frankly from their resumé, I don't get the hate their fluff got. It seems fairly good, it's not really exceptional, but it does remind me of the fluff of the Grey Knights. It seems to make sense within the setting which is already filled with secret armies, secret organisation and superhuman warriors. So where's all the beef comming from?

It's outright heresy.

Horus heresy happened when Horus (with the whispers of the ruinous powers) thought that the big E was abandoning his 'sons' and attaining godhood, the very thing which big E himself reviled and banned.

What g-man and cawl are doing is essentially what would've happened if Horus won - create his version of what he sees as closer to perfection of humanity. - or closer to attaining godhood.

 skchsan wrote:

epronovost wrote:
While I haven't made the transition yet to 8th eddition and haven't bought a single codex of the 8th eddition so far, I did got curious about the Primaris Marine fluff and read their entries on 40K popular online encyclopedia and frankly from their resumé, I don't get the hate their fluff got. It seems fairly good, it's not really exceptional, but it does remind me of the fluff of the Grey Knights. It seems to make sense within the setting which is already filled with secret armies, secret organisation and superhuman warriors. So where's all the beef comming from?

It's outright heresy.

Horus heresy happened when Horus (with the whispers of the ruinous powers) thought that the big E was abandoning his 'sons' and attaining godhood, the very thing which big E himself reviled and banned.

What g-man and cawl are doing is essentially what would've happened if Horus won - create his version of what he sees as closer to perfection of humanity. - or closer to attaining godhood.

Heresy is a religious concept. The Emperor doesn't revile religion. He simply thought it was an obstacle to his objectives, but he changed his gun of shoulder the moment he realised that being revered as a god had its advantages.

epronovost wrote:
I'm rather "skeptical" about the fact that both Guilliman and the Primaris were accepted by the Imperium so easily. That one was resurrected and the others created seems to make sense to me, but the fact that they weren't destroyed seems strange. Wouldn't a large portion of the Imperium not trust Guilliman's return; what if he was daemon possessed? What if it wasn't the "real one"? What if he was a traitor like half of his brothers?

Of course, Guilliman would have supporters and some people, like more radical inquisitors and Magos for example, would have been fine with new tech or playing with geneseed., but others would have considered that as a sign that Guilliman was corrupted and needed to die. If there has at least been mention of Guilliman having to crush his opponents to have the Primaris (and himself) accepted or him having to negotiate an exception for them like promise you will never sanction any other changes to the geneseed of Space Marine and will never investigate again the work of the Emperor and do X or Y penence for it. It would have been better.

This is exactly the huge missed opportunity they could of had with the fluff. Instead of everyone jumping on the Gulliman/Cawl bandwagon and adopting their (extremely heretical) batch of Space Marines +1, there should of been scores of worlds, chapters, inquisitors, etc who view this as chaos/xenos corruption and view those who fall under Gulliman's influence to be tainted by corruption. They literally call the cut off area of the IoM the Dark Imperium and it would of been a perfect way to raise the stakes of the setting while staying true to the core elements of the IoM (distrust, ignorance, superstition, regression, etc). Let the Dark Imperium hold onto the old marines while the chapters that follow Gulliman can adopt all the Primaris stuff.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Speak for yourself, I could give 2 shi#ts about them, actually I couldn't because givins free and my shi$ts cost.

I used "We" as a generalization.

Seems like you cared enough to point out that you don't care though.

I guess you missed the joke(90's rap lyric), it's ok, I wasnt pointing anyone out.

I guess you missed the joke(90's rap lyric), it's ok, I wasnt pointing anyone out.

Yeah, sorry. I guess I missed the joke lol

I don't really listen to hip hop.

All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

But calling him Robbie G just makes him seem so down to earth and relatable.

Honestly, I don't mind. The 10k years is a bit of a long time to wait, but I give it a pass as Crawl means a very slow pace, and GW is built on dodgy pun names!

I look forward; the addition of Crawl opens up the opportunity for GW to back fill the details of what happened post heresy through to the Time of Ending with a single coherent plot; who does 't want to know the finer details of who Crawl is and how he managed to achieve what he did? How did he know he had to be in specific places at specific times? What did he spend the rest of his 10k years doing? Surely not just napping?!

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

It's not our fault GW gave him a name that just criss out to be made fun of.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

It's not our fault GW gave him a name that just criss out to be made fun of.

Thank your lucky stars that Russ was the primarch chosen for the name of the IG's mainstay battletank. Imagine if it was the primarch of the 1st. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It cheapens the lore of the space marines.

The whole point of the space marines was that they were ascended beyond simple humanity to be it’s saviours, and invariably failed and brought humanity’s doom. The irony being that even the most powerful human/post human being in the galaxy could not save humanity from itself and in the end we are all doomed.

All the flaws and the history are what made you fall in love with the marines despite the fact that they are post human killing machines. That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Then along comes these “moar awesomer” marines to take the place of the ones we have known and loved for decades. They don’t have the flaws and are better in every way. How fething boring can you get? So where’s the tragedy? Where’s the plight? It makes everything that happened before inconsequential if they can just force these marines into existence to pick up the slack for the rest of the imperium.

This also flies in the face of the established lore of 40k. It’s the dark ages of the future. There is no room for advancement. There is only ignorance, religion and war. I want 40k to be doomed. I don’t want to see a renaissance. That’s not what I signed up for with 40k. I want the most grim dark, hopeless, horrific fantasy space opera ever devised.

Also, I’ve been around the block with this hobby and had Fantasy destroyed right before my eyes. To watch GW do the same with Fenris, Baal and Cadia breaks my heart. To see it replaced by garbage lore and garbage rules is painful.

Don’t pander to the lowest common denominator GW. Have some self respect. There are more important things in this world than money like art and pride in your work.

Great post

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

Its kinda Matt Ward and GW's fault, the Ultramarines and Guilliman are so squeaky clean and Mary Sue, its just funny to take the piss out of them. I mean I collect SW's and they get the piss taken out of them because they are second in line for being Mary Sue's, you just have to get a thicker skin and learn to have banter. The Mary Sues will always be made fun of the most.

 Luciferian wrote:
But calling him Robbie G just makes him seem so down to earth and relatable.

Robbie G isn't nearly as idiotic as Rowboat Girlyman, or Robot Gillman, or whatever dumb names they are spewing lately that have the words R and G at the start of them. In fact, it's pretty good nickname that I'm sure I'll use every now and then, since it's just that. A nickname.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

Its kinda Matt Ward and GW's fault, the Ultramarines and Guilliman are so squeaky clean and Mary Sue, its just funny to take the piss out of them. I mean I collect SW's and they get the piss taken out of them because they are second in line for being Mary Sue's, you just have to get a thicker skin and learn to have banter. The Mary Sues will always be made fun of the most.

Mary sue? Someone hasn't been reading the books lately. There are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels in existence, after all, who take the cake for being more pathetically special then the Ultramarines could ever hope to match. Mutants in the 41st millenium getting away with flaunting their mutations, heretics killing Inquisitors or defying the inquisition, and a chapter lineage that literally has every one of it's marines eventually go crazy and rip their allies apart in a blood fueled frenzy. The fact that they still have chapters made from their blood lines or haven't had a crusade called against them and something more palatable put in their place is practically mind boggling in a galaxy like 40ks.

Out of the big four loyalist chapters, the Ultramarines can hardly be considered the mary sues.

Then again, judging by your avatar, you are a fan of a dude that was too angry to die and likes killing his own dudes.

People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
But calling him Robbie G just makes him seem so down to earth and relatable.

Robbie G isn't nearly as idiotic as Rowboat Girlyman, or Robot Gillman, or whatever dumb names they are spewing lately that have the words R and G at the start of them. In fact, it's pretty good nickname that I'm sure I'll use every now and then, since it's just that. A nickname.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
All I dislike is the people intentionally misspelling Guilliman's name. It's an older and more tired meme than bad luck brian or overly attached girlfriend.

Its kinda Matt Ward and GW's fault, the Ultramarines and Guilliman are so squeaky clean and Mary Sue, its just funny to take the piss out of them. I mean I collect SW's and they get the piss taken out of them because they are second in line for being Mary Sue's, you just have to get a thicker skin and learn to have banter. The Mary Sues will always be made fun of the most.

Mary sue? Someone hasn't been reading the books lately. There are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels in existence, after all, who take the cake for being more pathetically special then the Ultramarines could ever hope to match. Mutants in the 41st millenium getting away with flaunting their mutations, heretics killing Inquisitors or defying the inquisition, and a chapter lineage that literally has every one of it's marines eventually go crazy and rip their allies apart in a blood fueled frenzy. The fact that they still have chapters made from their blood lines or haven't had a crusade called against them and something more palatable put in their place is practically mind boggling in a galaxy like 40ks.

Out of the big four loyalist chapters, the Ultramarines can hardly be considered the mary sues.

Then again, judging by your avatar, you are a fan of a dude that was too angry to die and likes killing his own dudes.

That's ridiculous. Roboute is actually putting in Astartes to lead Ultramar, not only are they marines they are politicians in charge of whole sectors of spacetime. Only an ultramarine fan could deny the mary sueness of the ultramarines lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

Its also because of how ultramarine fans take being made fun of. DA's should have it the worst having a legion based on gay jokes, but its the ultramarines fans that get it the worst because they can't handle a joke. Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either. I've been in arguments to the point where they are furious, actually in a rage due to a game.

Honestly I feel the big issue was the sudden drop of the new army, and then combine this with it’s a faction that is almost inevitably going to replace the flagship models caused a big shakeup after decades of stagnation.

I like the idea of Primaris Marines in terms of lore, but I would have done things differently. Assuming you are planning it out well in advance I would have given vague hints to Cawl having connections to the RG or Corax, or have a random mechanicum guy name drop him and make it look like he’s just a nobody during the Raptor program. Then have a short story a year later vaguely connecting him to the cursed founding, again just a side comment from some random mechanicus person. This way it makes the Primaris marines effectively new Raptors, but taking Cawl 10,000 years what Corax did in a couple, and a failed founding to boot. This also would have strengthened GW position when they released them, they can reference the hints they gave over the years, rather than play catch-up in an after the fact explanation, which always looks worse in my opinion. The idea behind better Astartes is sound (Raptors and Fabius) lore-wise, it’s just they gave the answer to a math question without the proof essentially.

Though I don’t like the monopose construction the models are in, which is a shame since I like the models otherwise. Once I get past one squad my OCD doesn’t like it, even though objectively even the old models could only be in so many poses without conversions also.

Arachnofiend wrote:People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

Really? His name is hardly silly in my opinion. In fact, it's one of the better Primarch names.

Let's see, we have the Primarch who is angry all the time - let's call him Angron! But, admittedly, that's quite a cool name, so how about other ones...
The one with hands of metal - Ferrus Manus!
The one who is themed around ravens? Corvus Corax!
The one leading the Alpha Legion? Alpharius (and his twin/opposite brother, Omegon!)

But sure, let's ignore those low hanging fruit ones - how about Lion El'Jonson? Sorry, but El'Jonson is a ridiculous sounding surname, and Lion is a pretty odd forename alone.
Russ, yeah, that does sound Fenrisian (as far as we can tell from Fenrisian names and how they seem inspired by Norse ones), but Leman? That's a bit of a strange sounding one for a supposedly-Norse culture. Not impossible, but Magnus would actually sound more Norse.

Guilliman actually sounds like a suitably foreign but believable name, and actually sounds like more thought went into the name than just "hurr durr he's angry/has metal hands/likes birds".

But, that's just me.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:That's ridiculous. Roboute is actually putting in Astartes to lead Ultramar, not only are they marines they are politicians in charge of whole sectors of spacetime. Only an ultramarine fan could deny the mary sueness of the ultramarines lol

But other Chapters do that too? Like, I don't know, the Space Wolves being in charge of the Fenris system? Sure, they might not intervene with the locals, but they are undoubtedly the highest form of government there.

Or how about the Salamanders? They're in charge of Nocturne. Or the Iron Hands, who rule Medusa?
But sure, if you're looking for Chapters who rule whole sectors of space - the Astral Claws, who ruled the whole Badab sector, spring to mind.

Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter who have political duties, nor even the only ones who rule over sectors of space.

Its also because of how ultramarine fans take being made fun of.

I've got nothing wrong with making fun of aspects of the Ultramarines. The "spiritual liege" jokes and pointing out characters like Leandros from the Space Marine games, Ultramarines with sticks up their rears who know nothing but the Codex, are well worth joking about.

It's going for flat out misinformation and jokes that have absolutely no basis which is what most Ultramarine players (and other players too) dislike, because they're simply not funny.

Pointing out funny things with actual lore? Sure, great. Making jokes from things that simply aren't there or justified? You just look immature.

DA's should have it the worst having a legion based on gay jokes,

Sorry, why is that funny? Their Primarch and legion name is based off a homosexual, and other than that nothing else? That's a perfect example of what I mean by a poor joke.

If you want to joke about the Dark Angels, I'd point out the joking aspects being Lion El'Jonson's name (not because of it's origins, but because of it just sounding strange), the fact half the legion fell and the lengths they got to hiding it and their general OTT obsession with the Fallen.

Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either.

Considering that you've demonstrated above that you attribute mary sue things to the Ultramarines that they're hardly the only ones to be guilty of, are you sure that your "criticisms" of them are actually correct in the first place? I mean, are you sure the Ultramarine fans you talk to aren't actually the ones in the right?

I'm not saying the UM don't have anything to joke about. I'm just saying that "jokes" based on things that aren't real aren't funny.

It's not really fair to compare Fenris to the Ultramarines. Fenris is a feral world ruled by the Space Wolves versus a mini empire ruled by the Ultramarines.

I find the whole argument about which Chapters are Mary Sues very annoying. People just end up misrepresenting events to support themselves and spread misinformation until it's as bad as me saying Ultramarines are secretly taking over the entire Imperium by spreading Successors.
The only thing worse is people saying Eldars.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either.

Considering that you've demonstrated above that you attribute mary sue things to the Ultramarines that they're hardly the only ones to be guilty of, are you sure that your "criticisms" of them are actually correct in the first place? I mean, are you sure the Ultramarine fans you talk to aren't actually the ones in the right?

The only really "mary sue" statement I've heard about the Ultramarines is how every Chapter of UM heritage would immediately step up and support them against anyone no matter what. The Chapters that were founded when Guilliman split the Legions, sure, just as those split from other Legions still keep in touch with their founders. But every Chapter ever founded with UM geneseed? Hardly. They're not robots programmed to be wannabe-ultramarines, they have their own traditions and goals.

Ofc, if Guilliman (or Calgar) had a good reason to ask for their help they would help - but not just "because Ultramarines".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:People making fun of Guilliman's name has very little to do with his integrity as a character and a lot to do with how silly his name is. He's like the Benedict Cumberbatch of 40k.

Really? His name is hardly silly in my opinion. In fact, it's one of the better Primarch names.

Let's see, we have the Primarch who is angry all the time - let's call him Angron! But, admittedly, that's quite a cool name, so how about other ones...
The one with hands of metal - Ferrus Manus!
The one who is themed around ravens? Corvus Corax!
The one leading the Alpha Legion? Alpharius (and his twin/opposite brother, Omegon!)

But sure, let's ignore those low hanging fruit ones - how about Lion El'Jonson? Sorry, but El'Jonson is a ridiculous sounding surname, and Lion is a pretty odd forename alone.
Russ, yeah, that does sound Fenrisian (as far as we can tell from Fenrisian names and how they seem inspired by Norse ones), but Leman? That's a bit of a strange sounding one for a supposedly-Norse culture. Not impossible, but Magnus would actually sound more Norse.

Guilliman actually sounds like a suitably foreign but believable name, and actually sounds like more thought went into the name than just "hurr durr he's angry/has metal hands/likes birds".

But, that's just me.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:That's ridiculous. Roboute is actually putting in Astartes to lead Ultramar, not only are they marines they are politicians in charge of whole sectors of spacetime. Only an ultramarine fan could deny the mary sueness of the ultramarines lol

But other Chapters do that too? Like, I don't know, the Space Wolves being in charge of the Fenris system? Sure, they might not intervene with the locals, but they are undoubtedly the highest form of government there.

Or how about the Salamanders? They're in charge of Nocturne. Or the Iron Hands, who rule Medusa?
But sure, if you're looking for Chapters who rule whole sectors of space - the Astral Claws, who ruled the whole Badab sector, spring to mind.

Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter who have political duties, nor even the only ones who rule over sectors of space.

Its also because of how ultramarine fans take being made fun of.

I've got nothing wrong with making fun of aspects of the Ultramarines. The "spiritual liege" jokes and pointing out characters like Leandros from the Space Marine games, Ultramarines with sticks up their rears who know nothing but the Codex, are well worth joking about.

It's going for flat out misinformation and jokes that have absolutely no basis which is what most Ultramarine players (and other players too) dislike, because they're simply not funny.

Pointing out funny things with actual lore? Sure, great. Making jokes from things that simply aren't there or justified? You just look immature.

DA's should have it the worst having a legion based on gay jokes,

Sorry, why is that funny? Their Primarch and legion name is based off a homosexual, and other than that nothing else? That's a perfect example of what I mean by a poor joke.

If you want to joke about the Dark Angels, I'd point out the joking aspects being Lion El'Jonson's name (not because of it's origins, but because of it just sounding strange), the fact half the legion fell and the lengths they got to hiding it and their general OTT obsession with the Fallen.

Every argument I've had with ultramarine fans involves extreme biasedness to the point of being delusional, they can't handle any criticism either.

Considering that you've demonstrated above that you attribute mary sue things to the Ultramarines that they're hardly the only ones to be guilty of, are you sure that your "criticisms" of them are actually correct in the first place? I mean, are you sure the Ultramarine fans you talk to aren't actually the ones in the right?

I'm not saying the UM don't have anything to joke about. I'm just saying that "jokes" based on things that aren't real aren't funny.

What about the rock being a gay night club, its well known that in the beginning writers wrote DA's as being gay as a joke.

No because I've proved them wrong on the lore, and one even went mental when I did it, I always admit that I'm wrong so no they weren't in the right. If I could find the thread I could show you the rage, regardless of being right or wrong if you go into a rage talking about the lore then yes you have to be biased why else would you get angry. From my experience ultramarine fans are humourless and biased.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

What about the rock being a gay night club, its well known that in the beginning writers wrote DA's as being gay as a joke.

Even if that was the intent, and even if it was intended as a point of humour, should their references to homosexuality be considered a "joke"?

Again, perfect example of something that's not really that funny (subjective, I know) being treated as some kind of joke. What's funny about homosexual references?

From my experience ultramarine fans are humourless and biased.

In mine, Ultramarine haters usually over-exaggerate and misinterpret the lore, using outdated sources to support it, and claim that's humour.

I'm not saying the Ultramarines have no humourous elements (Macragge being put into an absolute chaotic state after Kurze arrived, or the interaction between Leandros and Titus/ Thiel and whoever his superior officers are), but Rawbutt Girlyman is scraping the bottom of the barrel for humour, imo.

I think the idea of the Ultramarines being Mary Sues comes from the Mat Ward codex with writing that described the other chapters aberrant and with diminishing number. Being no longer source of new chapters with the sons of Guilliman being seen as a better source. Other space marines (Raven Guard, White Scars) trying to follow the teaching of Guilliman without mentioning their own primarchs teachings.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

What about the rock being a gay night club, its well known that in the beginning writers wrote DA's as being gay as a joke.

Even if that was the intent, and even if it was intended as a point of humour, should their references to homosexuality be considered a "joke"?

Again, perfect example of something that's not really that funny (subjective, I know) being treated as some kind of joke. What's funny about homosexual references?

From my experience ultramarine fans are humourless and biased.

In mine, Ultramarine haters usually over-exaggerate and misinterpret the lore, using outdated sources to support it, and claim that's humour.

I'm not saying the Ultramarines have no humourous elements (Macragge being put into an absolute chaotic state after Kurze arrived, or the interaction between Leandros and Titus/ Thiel and whoever his superior officers are), but Rawbutt Girlyman is scraping the bottom of the barrel for humour, imo.

Oh you're politically correct then. Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

'but they called me a name' give me a break, having banter and taking the piss out of someone isn't supposed to be funny to the victim. Its just a laugh and when you take the piss out of people it doesn't have to be witty or well constructed, if they are annoyed by it then its a job well done. why are you trying to act all holyier than now, if you don't take the piss out of your friends and vice versa then you probably aren't that versed in fun.

Can I ask, are you gay or are you just taking offence for gay people, because I really think gay people have more pressing concerns of bigotry like people calling them F******ts, I doubt a goofy gay joke about 40k space marines are going to blanket them in oppression.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

Maybe it's my historian side, but I know exactly why thinking so is stupid. I mean, it's not like Spartans or the Sacred Band are unknown for both being amongst the greatest soldiers of their time and for their sexual proclivity. The joke is only truly funny if one is bigoted or massively ignorant in the first place, else it falls flat.

Some implication of homsexuality in regard to the Dark Angels might be an allusion to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote the poem “Dark Angel.”

As for casting aspersions at the Ultramarines (and Space Marines generally), I think there’s a split meaning when it comes to joking about them being gay. The more basic, and entirely juvenile, insult is simply that they are somehow effeminate. I’m not sure what in actual fluff supports this at all. But it’s the sort of “humor” one might find on an elementary school playground.

The second connotation is a bit more clever and can be summed up as a reference to some gay men getting fed up with effeminate and camp stereotypes and so swinging way in the other direction, toward hyper-masculinity. Space Marines are about as butch as imaginable and, with their strictly all-male society, as well as the time frame in which they were invented, they do sort of resemble that particular fashion or movement among gay men in the 1980s.

What I find so frustrating is that the correct path was right in front of them.

Space Marines are supposedly 8' supermen, wheras they are slightly bigger than guardsmen in their armour. Now the new Primaris are 8' supermen, they arent bigger they have truescaled.

Add a primarch and you have a natural answer. Astartes are tough but not as tough as they were in 30K, an awakened primarch means a 1st generation geneseed source and marines can be made as they were in 30K. You could call them primaris as they are throwbacks to the first generation marines. There is no reason why microscopic amounts of Guilliman genetic material couldnt 'fix holes' in geneseed of other primarchs, so primaris could be rolled out around the board. i am assuming here that Guilliman is an unending source of 1st generation genetic material, if not geneseed itself.
It is not unreasonabe to say you can renew geneseed for any marine legion with a drop of primarch blood. CSM primarchs dont count as they are all either dead or daemons.

This also means that CSM shrink to some extent, though new CSM sculpts are bigger than standard marines, they are inbetween primaris and old marines in scale.

As for the vehicles, Guilliman could simply order them unlocked. In 30k everyone rode around in Rhinos then for religious reasons only astartes and Inquisition forces could have them. Grav tanks might have been forbidden technology. But if Guilliman orders Repulsors printed from the STC bumbling guys in red robes cant really do much about it. Just assume that Guilliman took an interest in STC tech first time around, which is highly likely allowing for his character.
Cawl doesnt need to invent a single thing. No single man overturning millenia of stagnation alone. No have Guilliman bypass ten millenia of dogma. we know for instance from one of the forgeworld books that the Lighning fighter took a full millenia to enter service because of the prayer rituals surrounding the STC and testing phase.

It could work like this:

Guilliman. why arent we using grav tanks anymore.
Calgar. Grav tanks, I thought only xenos had them?
Guilliman. No we certainly had the ability. Send in that red robed fool.
Cawl shuffles in.
Guilliman. I want to you print Repulsor tanks from the STC reserves.
Cawl. What? ..... accessing data.
Gulliman. and we need heavy dreadnought while we are at it, and gravbikes.
Cawl. Ahh found it. The Repulsor tank s a most holy design, we need extra prayer to not provoke its creator spirit.
Guilliman. Extra prayer eh? Hmm
Cawl. anything that is bourne aloft from the ground is holier. We needed a thousand years of meditation cycles and placations before the Lighning fighter could be approved. The Repulsor would take even longer, its is not winged as to a bird but is held aloft by the magicks of ancient technology.
Guilliman. a thousand years testing cycle for a light fighter.....hmm.
Cawl. Prayer and meditation yes
Primarch Facepalm
Guilliman. Cawl, I have new instructions for you. Print out a Repulsor tank this afternoon directly from the STC.
Cawl. Without all the order of service?
Guilliman. Yes, just print the tank.
Cawl. If we start meditations now we can be ready for first assemblies in twenty years, less if we do a cycling penitent fast.
Gulliman. Cawl, print the tank.
Cawl. But without the holy procedures.
Guilliman. Add the STC log file to the cognitator here and press Start.
Cawl. Not the holy rune of activation, what if we are judged unworthy by the machine god. We dont even have a choir, no incense burner, nothing!!
Guilliman PRINT. THE. TANK.
.... and Cawl. I want it on the helipad this afternoon for flight testing.
.... and Cawl. once that is done print another 20000 in the first batch. I want twenty for every chapter. Priority delivery.



A bit of thought and you would have the entire new range worked out. Thankfully it is still faxable. The Imperium is big on moral truth. This might indeed be what is happening. Guillimans return allowed marines to get bigger and old STC constructs got activated bypassing all the religious dogmas Guilliman had an evident history of no patience for. However another story had to be put out, for now, so as not to offend the Ecclesiarchy, and that story is also what the fans are currently getting.,

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Oh you're politically incorrect then. Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

No, please, is being gay the essence of humour? Why should the Dark Angels having gay references (not even being gay) make them unlikely to be the best fighters? Haven't you heard of the Theban Sacred Band? Defeated the Spartans in pitched battle at Leuctra? Or maybe that was because the Spartans had homosexual tendancies themselves, so they clearly couldn't have been good fighters, right? But then, they were so feared they dissuaded Alexander the Great - who is debated as having been in a sexual relationship with his bodyguard Hephaestion (of course, this is conjecture, but hardly impossible or even unlikely).

Sorry, but how does being gay mean they're not going to be good fighters? Is this "the essence of humour" as you put it?

'but they called me a name' give me a break, having banter and taking the piss out of someone isn't supposed to be funny to the victim. Its just a laugh and when you take the piss out of people it doesn't have to be witty or well constructed, if they are annoyed by it then its a job well done. why are you trying to act all holyier than now, if you don't take the piss out of your friends and vice versa then you probably aren't that versed in fun.

That's not what I'd say "humour" is. If you think the only way to have humour is at the detriment of someone, then I'm sorry, but that's not what the main definition of humour is.

Humour isn't just a fixed definition - it's subjective. Your idea of it is different to mine. However, I think, and quite a few others would to, that humour with the intent to offend above all else, is quite poor taste. But that's just me.

Can I ask, are you gay or are you just taking offence for gay people, because I really think gay people have more pressing concerns of bigotry like people calling them F******ts, I doubt a goofy gay joke about 40k space marines are going to blanket them in oppression.

Bi/pansexual. And yes, the idea that having gay references is funny because gay people aren't supposed to be good warriors is both historically and biologically incorrect AND personally offensive.
It might have been a joke back then (it doesn't read like one to me), but even if it was, does that mean it should still be seen as just a "goofy joke"?

Or is homophobia just a joke to you?

...isn't supposed to be funny to the victim

Oh. I guess you do think that then.

Using gay as an insult or term of derision isn’t funny. It’s childish and bigoted. And I’m not super PC or anything I just dislike idiots who think it’s ok to insult people based on sex or sexuality. It isn’t ok that gay the lgbt community have worse things to worry about. It doesn’t justify your low grade homophobia and make it not dangerous and offensive.

And secondly dev. The idea of you criticising people who get in a rage about the lore is a joke. U have raged at me so often about the “lore” it’s crazy. And you don’t always admit your wrong. U quite often just rage until you get banned.

 Manchu wrote:
Some implication of homsexuality in regard to the Dark Angels might be an allusion to the poet Lionel Johnson who wrote the poem “Dark Angel.”

As for casting aspersions at the Ultramarines (and Space Marines generally), I think there’s a split meaning when it comes to joking about them being gay. The more basic, and entirely juvenile, insult is simply that they are somehow effeminate. I’m not sure what in actual fluff supports this at all. But it’s the sort of “humor” one might find on an elementary school playground.

There is no such thing.

GW for all its many faults have never:
a) sexualised
b) virtue signalled.

I applaud them for this because cheesecake is the immediate go to for many miniatures manufacturerers, and GW have eschewed all forms of political correctness without offending anyone in the process by doing so, which is quite a feat frankly.

Yes there are sexual undertones to the Dark elves and Dark Eldar, but its isnt directly mentioned. Slaanesh might be the porn god, but the depictions are intentionally revolting and not the cheesecake we would otherwise expect.

As for the lack of virtue signalling it is evident throughout. GW has always been about mainstream toy soldier fantasy so the sexuality of space marines has always been utterly irrelevant and utterly vacant. If anything Ultramarines are sexless, perhaps even literally. It doesn't come up in the fluff in any way. now people might choose to imply they are gay as a result of thier lack of interest in women, but they have a same lack of interest in men. So then people assume that means closet gay. However in fact the sexuality of 40K is just absent from the narrative wholecloth, even a Slaanesh invasion normally manifests in other ways.

The only time we see active sexualisation is with the Lahmians and druchii pleasure cults, and both are deep background and implied only indirectly.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Oh you're politically incorrect then. Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny.

No, please, is being gay the essence of humour? Why should the Dark Angels having gay references (not even being gay) make them unlikely to be the best fighters? Haven't you heard of the Theban Sacred Band? Defeated the Spartans in pitched battle at Leuctra? Or maybe that was because the Spartans had homosexual tendancies themselves, so they clearly couldn't have been good fighters, right? But then, they were so feared they dissuaded Alexander the Great - who is debated as having been in a sexual relationship with his bodyguard Hephaestion (of course, this is conjecture, but hardly impossible or even unlikely).

Sorry, but how does being gay mean they're not going to be good fighters? Is this "the essence of humour" as you put it?

'but they called me a name' give me a break, having banter and taking the piss out of someone isn't supposed to be funny to the victim. Its just a laugh and when you take the piss out of people it doesn't have to be witty or well constructed, if they are annoyed by it then its a job well done. why are you trying to act all holyier than now, if you don't take the piss out of your friends and vice versa then you probably aren't that versed in fun.

That's not what I'd say "humour" is. If you think the only way to have humour is at the detriment of someone, then I'm sorry, but that's not what the main definition of humour is.

Humour isn't just a fixed definition - it's subjective. Your idea of it is different to mine. However, I think, and quite a few others would to, that humour with the intent to offend above all else, is quite poor taste. But that's just me.

Can I ask, are you gay or are you just taking offence for gay people, because I really think gay people have more pressing concerns of bigotry like people calling them F******ts, I doubt a goofy gay joke about 40k space marines are going to blanket them in oppression.

Bi/pansexual. And yes, the idea that having gay references is funny because gay people aren't supposed to be good warriors is both historically and biologically incorrect AND personally offensive.
It might have been a joke back then (it doesn't read like one to me), but even if it was, does that mean it should still be seen as just a "goofy joke"?

Or is homophobia just a joke to you?

...isn't supposed to be funny to the victim

Oh. I guess you do think that then.

It isn't the past, homosexuality was rife in greek culture, times have changed and yeah gay people aren't going in droves to join the army. Everything can be a joke to me, the essence of a joke is that it is out of place or ironic etc. and yes Astartes being gay is funny. The gay people I know for one are not like you, they have thick skin and tell more gay jokes than I do, even though I'm not even telling a gay joke I'm just stating that the early writers wrote the DA's as gay. Listen think of me as homophobic all you want I literally couldn't care what overly sensitive people think of me.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It isn't the past, homosexuality was rife in greek culture, times have changed

Yeah. I bet they did change a lot between ancient Greece and the 41st Millenium.

Why would some people's stigma about gay soldiers be a factor in M41?

and yeah gay people aren't going in droves to join the army.

But there's nothing wrong with them being in it, and it's not a funny matter.

Everything can be a joke to me, the essence of a joke is that it is out of place or ironic etc. and yes Astartes being gay is funny.

To you. That's not a fact, and it's certainly not 100% accurate to everyone.

What is out of place or ironic about the Dark Angels being inspired (not even actually gay, I might add) by a homosexual?

I'm just stating that the early writers wrote the DA's as gay.

You're also saying that it's a joke. Which is the main point I'm hitting at here.

Listen think of me as homophobic all you want I literally couldn't care what overly sensitive people think of me.

If thinking that finding gay soliders is funny is being "overly sensitive", I really don't know what to say.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
It isn't the past, homosexuality was rife in greek culture, times have changed

Yeah. I bet they did change a lot between ancient Greece and the 41st Millenium.

Why would some people's stigma about gay soldiers be a factor in M41?

and yeah gay people aren't going in droves to join the army.

But there's nothing wrong with them being in it, and it's not a funny matter.

Everything can be a joke to me, the essence of a joke is that it is out of place or ironic etc. and yes Astartes being gay is funny.

To you. That's not a fact, and it's certainly not 100% accurate to everyone.

What is out of place or ironic about the Dark Angels being inspired (not even actually gay, I might add) by a homosexual?

I'm just stating that the early writers wrote the DA's as gay.

You're also saying that it's a joke. Which is the main point I'm hitting at here.

Listen think of me as homophobic all you want I literally couldn't care what overly sensitive people think of me.

If thinking that finding gay soliders is funny is being "overly sensitive", I really don't know what to say.

In the past all men were expected to fight.

It is a fact that humour is based on incongruity and irony.

You are being overly sensitive, to ridiculous proportions. Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place. Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards. Dude you need to lighten up. and I never even said the joke was funny.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place. Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards.

The ancient greeks weren't "gay" quite as we might understand it though. In their society women were seen as inferior beings, needed for having a couple kids to continue the family and little else. Your friends were men, your superiors and underlings were men, anyone you dealt with were men. Only a man could understand the problems of a man so speaking to your wife about "complicated stuff" was as useful as speaking about it to your horse. You weren't against the natural order for staying with other men and maybe having some sport with them, you did the sensible thing in not getting more kids than needed while having equal companions to speak to.

If anything modern professional military (and sports) is quite a lot like it still. Guys who prefer to hang out with guys. Without being in any way gay, ofc. They have a wife back home. ;-)

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
In the past all men were expected to fight.

And? Is the fact some of them were gay funny? What's funny about it?

It is a fact that humour is based on incongruity and irony.

And please, tell me what's incongruous or ironic about some supersoldiers in the DISTANT FAR FUTURE having a few REFERENCES (not actually even necessarily gay themselves) to a homosexual poet?

Look, I know humour is subjective, but really?

You are being overly sensitive, to ridiculous proportions.

I really don't think I am.

I'm just asking you to clarify here - you think that gay people are funny when they're soldiers? Why?

Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place.

What? Dude, no?!

Not all gay people are feminine. That's absolutely a stereotype. Source - me. Unless you're really going to go out there and say ALL gay people act feminine - because otherwise, that would be a stereotype.
Furthermore, straight people can be feminine.

What you're falling into the trap of is saying "feminine people in war is incongruous, and therefore funny" (which is a whole can of worms in itself), but that's based on untruths and simple falsehoods.

Not all gays are feminine. That alone should be enough to say that the whole "gays in war is funny lolz" idea is pretty dumb.

Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards.

Good thing we're not talking about the contemporary military, isn't it. We're talking about a quasi-religious brotherhood of warrior monks in the 41st millenium.

Dude you need to lighten up.

Alternatively, I don't need to do anything, and you might want to consider that you're hiding behind quite grossly homophobic statements as "jokes".

I don't really see what this has to do with Primaris fluff, but if you really want to try and justify your ideas of "humour" in a PM, I'll hear it out.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
In the past all men were expected to fight.

And? Is the fact some of them were gay funny? What's funny about it?

It is a fact that humour is based on incongruity and irony.

And please, tell me what's incongruous or ironic about some supersoldiers in the DISTANT FAR FUTURE having a few REFERENCES (not actually even necessarily gay themselves) to a homosexual poet?

Look, I know humour is subjective, but really?

You are being overly sensitive, to ridiculous proportions.

I really don't think I am.

I'm just asking you to clarify here - you think that gay people are funny when they're soldiers? Why?

Gay people acting feminine isn't a stereotype, they do act feminine and there is nothing wrong about that and war has always been a masculine activity, therefore the two are out of place.

What? Dude, no?!

Not all gay people are feminine. That's absolutely a stereotype. Source - me. Unless you're really going to go out there and say ALL gay people act feminine - because otherwise, that would be a stereotype.
Furthermore, straight people can be feminine.

What you're falling into the trap of is saying "feminine people in war is incongruous, and therefore funny" (which is a whole can of worms in itself), but that's based on untruths and simple falsehoods.

Not all gays are feminine. That alone should be enough to say that the whole "gays in war is funny lolz" idea is pretty dumb.

Yes there are masculine bad ass gays, Alexander the great for instance was the greatest military mind and one of the best warriors ever, making a joke between gays and the military isn't saying they can't be in the military but look at the contemporary military, statistically it isn't a place that gays are running towards.

Good thing we're not talking about the contemporary military, isn't it. We're talking about a quasi-religious brotherhood of warrior monks in the 41st millenium.

Dude you need to lighten up.

Alternatively, I don't need to do anything, and you might want to consider that you're hiding behind quite grossly homophobic statements as "jokes".

I don't really see what this has to do with Primaris fluff, but if you really want to try and justify your ideas of "humour" in a PM, I'll hear it out.

I never said it was funny. I stated that DA's should be mocked because they were created as being gay and people call Guilliman Girlyman, so people that call Guilliman Girlyman are going to find DA's being gay funny.

Its not a stereotype in the slightest 'most' gay men are feminine and saying they are not is disingenuous.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I never qualified or agreed with the joke, all I did was state that it is a joke and you are completely ignoring that, you are purposefully making this an issue. I've got absolutely nothing against gay people, I'm not playing this game.

This whole line of discussion is so irrelevant. There is nothing explicitly homosexual about Space Marines and there most likely never will be. Though, of course, there are always homoerotic undertones in an environment of hyper-masculinity (I should know, I was an Infantryman).

I've seen accusations of homosexuality or homosexuality used as a punchline flung in both directions here on Dakka Dakka. Some people think it's OK to do the projection thing and imply that people who don't want FemMarines must be latently homosexual etc. I'm the last person to be PC or get offended by things like that on behalf of other people but it's middle-school level material at best, no matter who is wielding it or for what purpose. It's not like I have any authority or level of respect but I'd recommend just dropping it, unless the topic is specifically to discuss the homoerotic undertones of an all-male warrior culture it's not really worth talking about.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said it was funny.

So, you saying "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny" didn't happen?

You literally did say the words "Its funny because" and "you know exactly why its funny", plus saying "yes Astartes being gay is funny". Did that not happen?

I stated that DA's should be mocked because they were created as being gay and people call Guilliman Girlyman, so people that call Guilliman Girlyman are going to find DA's being gay funny.

I just quoted what you said.

And you've not proven that they were "created" as being gay. They have references to a homosexual poet, and apparently a gay nightclub, but themselves being gay? Where's the proof?

Its not a stereotype in the slightest 'most' gay men are feminine and saying they are not is disingenuous.

Do you know the definition of a stereotype? A stereotype is a widely held, and oversimplified view of something - which the statement "they (gay people) act feminine" absolutely is.

You didn't say "some gay people" - you didn't even seem to register that it's not just gay people who act feminine - you made a massive generalisation. It wouldn't be an issue if you admitted that, but trying to backtrack and imply you meant something else all along really isn't a good look.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I never qualified or agreed with the joke, all I did was state that it is a joke and you are completely ignoring that, you are purposefully making this an issue.

A joke requires it to be funny. Otherwise, it's just a comment made in bad taste. And gee, look how much I'm laughing.
But then, you do say "isn't supposed to be funny to the victim" - does this mean that you're victimising me?

I don't find it funny. Do you find it funny?
You DID say that "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny", and then go on to say stuff which I've quoted up above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
unless the topic is specifically to discuss the homoerotic undertones of an all-male warrior culture it's not really worth talking about.

I don't think it's worth talking about, especially not on this topic, but if someone's going to be homophobic, I don't think it's appropriate to let them passively get away with rather offensive and stereotypical "jokes".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I never said it was funny.

So, you saying "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny" didn't happen?

You literally did say the words "Its funny because" and "you know exactly why its funny", plus saying "yes Astartes being gay is funny". Did that not happen?

I stated that DA's should be mocked because they were created as being gay and people call Guilliman Girlyman, so people that call Guilliman Girlyman are going to find DA's being gay funny.

I just quoted what you said.

And you've not proven that they were "created" as being gay. They have references to a homosexual poet, and apparently a gay nightclub, but themselves being gay? Where's the proof?

Its not a stereotype in the slightest 'most' gay men are feminine and saying they are not is disingenuous.

Do you know the definition of a stereotype? A stereotype is a widely held, and oversimplified view of something - which the statement "they (gay people) act feminine" absolutely is.

You didn't say "some gay people" - you didn't even seem to register that it's not just gay people who act feminine - you made a massive generalisation. It wouldn't be an issue if you admitted that, but trying to backtrack and imply you meant something else all along really isn't a good look.

I'm not hiding behind anything, I never qualified or agreed with the joke, all I did was state that it is a joke and you are completely ignoring that, you are purposefully making this an issue.

A joke requires it to be funny. Otherwise, it's just a comment made in bad taste. And gee, look how much I'm laughing.
But then, you do say "isn't supposed to be funny to the victim" - does this mean that you're victimising me?

I don't find it funny. Do you find it funny?
You DID say that "Its funny because its the essence of humour, you don;t expect the best fighters in the galaxy being gay, you know exactly why its funny", and then go on to say stuff which I've quoted up above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
unless the topic is specifically to discuss the homoerotic undertones of an all-male warrior culture it's not really worth talking about.

I don't think it's worth talking about, especially not on this topic, but if someone's going to be homophobic, I don't think it's appropriate to let them passively get away with rather offensive and stereotypical "jokes".

Yeah I can explain the humour in something without commenting on what I personally think about the joke.

Yes you just quoted what I said.

I don't need to prove it, next the the GW building there was a gay night club called the rock, the old writers have said all this.

No a stereotype is a generalisation that is unfounded. If its a generalisation its just a generalisation.

Dude I'm not backtracking, I don't care what you think, especially not after this discussion.

Again most gay men are feminine and there is nothing wrong with that, but you think there is obviously.

As in the victimising, pppfftttt, banter between mates is directed at someone to take the piss out of them, so they are the victim of banter. You're ridiculous.

Yeah I don't expect the best fighters to be gay, because of the minority of gays in the army and as fighters, if more went into the army and fighting then they'd just progress the same. I'm done here, call me a homophobe all you want, you're a joke mate, this is the stupidest argument of all time. "are you calling me a joke because I'm gay" in 5,4,3,2...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah I can explain the humour in something without commenting on what I personally think about the joke.

You literally said it was funny.

Yes you just quoted what I said.

Yes. You saying "its funny" before you saying that you never said you found it funny. That's why I quoted it.

I don't need to prove it, next the the GW building there was a gay night club called the rock, the old writers have said all this.

What I was asking for proof of was the DA actually being gay THEMSELVES, not just taking some naming inspiration from certain homosexual things and people.

No a stereotype is a generalisation that is unfounded. If its a generalisation its just a generalisation.

Please, look up the definition of a stereotype.

Dude I'm not backtracking, I don't care what you think, especially not after this discussion.

I'm asking you to care what I think. I'm asking you to stop making homophobic remarks because they breach Rule 1 on this site.

Again most gay men are feminine and there is nothing wrong with that, but you think there is obviously.

I'm asking for your source of "most gay men are feminine". Can you supply that source? Because if it's just your opinion or experience, I'm sorry to say that my experience is different and contradictory to that.

As in the victimising, pppfftttt, banter between mates is directed at someone to take the piss out of them, so they are the victim of banter. You're ridiculous.

But we're not mates. You're not having "banter" with me, you're just making broad assumptions about an entire community.

Yeah I don't expect the best fighters to be gay, because of the minority of gays in the army and as fighters, if more went into the army and fighting then they'd just progress the same.

With your understanding of the MODERN military. We're not talking about the MODERN military, are we?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yeah I can explain the humour in something without commenting on what I personally think about the joke.

You literally said it was funny.

Yes you just quoted what I said.

Yes. You saying "its funny" before you saying that you never said you found it funny. That's why I quoted it.

I don't need to prove it, next the the GW building there was a gay night club called the rock, the old writers have said all this.

What I was asking for proof of was the DA actually being gay THEMSELVES, not just taking some naming inspiration from certain homosexual things and people.

No a stereotype is a generalisation that is unfounded. If its a generalisation its just a generalisation.

Please, look up the definition of a stereotype.

Dude I'm not backtracking, I don't care what you think, especially not after this discussion.

I'm asking you to care what I think. I'm asking you to stop making homophobic remarks because they breach Rule 1 on this site.

Again most gay men are feminine and there is nothing wrong with that, but you think there is obviously.

I'm asking for your source of "most gay men are feminine". Can you supply that source? Because if it's just your opinion or experience, I'm sorry to say that my experience is different and contradictory to that.

As in the victimising, pppfftttt, banter between mates is directed at someone to take the piss out of them, so they are the victim of banter. You're ridiculous.

But we're not mates. You're not having "banter" with me, you're just making broad assumptions about an entire community.

Yeah I don't expect the best fighters to be gay, because of the minority of gays in the army and as fighters, if more went into the army and fighting then they'd just progress the same.

With your understanding of the MODERN military. We're not talking about the MODERN military, are we?

Good for you.

So it appears we have dropped into the 1970s here. It is outrageous to say “most” gays are anything or another thing. It’s bigotry and homophobia. It’s the kind of nasty insidious homophobia that makes me livid. Same with lowkey racism or sexism.

Let me guess Dev “some of your best friends are gay/black/etc”. Using gay as an insult is just not acceptable. Even as a joke.

Andykp wrote:
So it appears we have dropped into the 1970s here. It is outrageous to say “most” gays are anything or another thing. It’s bigotry and homophobia. It’s the kind of nasty insidious homophobia that makes me livid. Same with lowkey racism or sexism.

Let me guess Dev “some of your best friends are gay/black/etc”. Using gay as an insult is just not acceptable. Even as a joke.

Apparently calling that out though is just being sensitive and ridiculous.

Andykp wrote:
So it appears we have dropped into the 1970s here. It is outrageous to say “most” gays are anything or another thing. It’s bigotry and homophobia. It’s the kind of nasty insidious homophobia that makes me livid. Same with lowkey racism or sexism.

Let me guess Dev “some of your best friends are gay/black/etc”. Using gay as an insult is just not acceptable. Even as a joke.

Its not outrageous, I can't roll my eyes far enough back into my head due to your outrage. Most women can get pregnant OH MY GOD! Stop the presses.

Yes some of my friends are gay and black etc. and they don't think I'm homophobic or racist etc. so I don't care what you people think. (oh I said you people that must make me humanphobe)

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes some of my friends are gay and black etc. and they don't think I'm homophobic or racist etc. so I don't care what you people think.

But we're using text to convey meaning here. It's pretty hard to tell "friendly banter among friends" from "racial/sexual slurs against outsiders" in plain text. Adding a nice smiley doesn't necessarily cut it.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Yes some of my friends are gay and black etc. and they don't think I'm homophobic or racist etc. so I don't care what you people think.

But we're using text to convey meaning here. It's pretty hard to tell "friendly banter among friends" from "racial/sexual slurs against outsiders" in plain text. Adding a nice smiley doesn't necessarily cut it.

Whatever.

If you don’t see generalising and prejudging people like that is wrong then you probably never will. Gay isn’t an insult or a joke. It’s a sexual orientation. It doesn’t preclude certain physical or emotional attributes. The idea that gay don’t make good soldiers is so last century too. All aspects of the British military actively recruit from the lgbt community. I have met a cross dressing ww2 veteran who was in the original SAS and wasn’t at all feminine. Even though he was wearing a pink nighty at the time.

The dark angles may have been a bad gay joke in the 80s (I’m not sure they were) but that doesn’t wash now. It isn’t ok to to make those comments and worse, defend them as funny because they allude to an outdated stereotype. As said above, it’s either homophobic or very juvenile.

And I’m not som much outraged as annoyed. I don’t imagine you and I would get on in the real world. And that’s fine. But please stop trying to downplay your prejudices as harmless. They aren’t. They are toxic. I remember comments you made during at least one of the recent female marines debates and these comments don’t surprise me. And I’m glad Sgt smudge has called you out on it here.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It cheapens the lore of the space marines.

The whole point of the space marines was that they were ascended beyond simple humanity to be it’s saviours, and invariably failed and brought humanity’s doom. The irony being that even the most powerful human/post human being in the galaxy could not save humanity from itself and in the end we are all doomed.

All the flaws and the history are what made you fall in love with the marines despite the fact that they are post human killing machines. That’s why we love blood angels, space wolves and dark angels, because we know deep down inside that they are fundamentally flawed just like us but they still rise to the occasion and defend the humanity they know cannot defend themselves.

Then along comes these “moar awesomer” marines to take the place of the ones we have known and loved for decades. They don’t have the flaws and are better in every way. How fething boring can you get? So where’s the tragedy? Where’s the plight? It makes everything that happened before inconsequential if they can just force these marines into existence to pick up the slack for the rest of the imperium.

This also flies in the face of the established lore of 40k. It’s the dark ages of the future. There is no room for advancement. There is only ignorance, religion and war. I want 40k to be doomed. I don’t want to see a renaissance. That’s not what I signed up for with 40k. I want the most grim dark, hopeless, horrific fantasy space opera ever devised.

Also, I’ve been around the block with this hobby and had Fantasy destroyed right before my eyes. To watch GW do the same with Fenris, Baal and Cadia breaks my heart. To see it replaced by garbage lore and garbage rules is painful.

Don’t pander to the lowest common denominator GW. Have some self respect. There are more important things in this world than money like art and pride in your work.

Brings a tear to my eye, mate. May their glory never fade.


Addendum. wtf happened to this thread?

Andykp wrote:
If you don’t see generalising and prejudging people like that is wrong then you probably never will. Gay isn’t an insult or a joke. It’s a sexual orientation. It doesn’t preclude certain physical or emotional attributes. The idea that gay don’t make good soldiers is so last century too. All aspects of the British military actively recruit from the lgbt community. I have met a cross dressing ww2 veteran who was in the original SAS and wasn’t at all feminine. Even though he was wearing a pink nighty at the time.

The dark angles may have been a bad gay joke in the 80s (I’m not sure they were) but that doesn’t wash now. It isn’t ok to to make those comments and worse, defend them as funny because they allude to an outdated stereotype. As said above, it’s either homophobic or very juvenile.

And I’m not som much outraged as annoyed. I don’t imagine you and I would get on in the real world. And that’s fine. But please stop trying to downplay your prejudices as harmless. They aren’t. They are toxic. I remember comments you made during at least one of the recent female marines debates and these comments don’t surprise me. And I’m glad Sgt smudge has called you out on it here.

I never said that gay is an insult, I said it is a joke to the early writers of 40k, it is a joke by their standards which is the point I made. So blab about your virtue signally all you want.

Yes space marines shouldn't be female, how in the feth is that sexist. I collect Sisters of Battle and I don't want male sisters of battle, to you that isn't the same as 'I don't want female marines' because you are so used to virtue signalling that you haven't spent any time actually thinking for yourself or having your own opinion. Thinking that not wanting female marines is sexist is just pathetic. I mean anything that is changed in the lore, even far more trivial things like that are raged against, look at the Primaris marines, people are in a rage because they are 'better' marines and you want to drastically change marines by making them female and then by not supporting that you think is sexist, I mean do you ever just take time to actually listen to yourself? Maybe I'm just old, but yes I have to be taking crazy pills.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Addendum. wtf happened to this thread?

An important and serious discussion about humor with perfect stranger, bigotry and the representation of sexual minority in popular fiction media occured. It happens once in a while, especially as we grow more critical of popular fiction and media treatment of minorities. No need to panic, we can still talk about why the Primaris Marine fluff is so reviled. In my opinion, it sits uncomfortably and was unnesseary, but its not THAT bad. It stand to be improvedby expending on their origin and especially be extanting on the character of Cawl who, like his faction, is new fluff wise.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Addendum. wtf happened to this thread?

An important and serious discussion about humor with perfect stranger, bigotry and the representation of sexual minority in popular fiction media occured. It happens once in a while, especially as we grow more critical of popular fiction and media treatment of minorities. No need to panic, we can still talk about why the Primaris Marine fluff is so reviled. In my opinion, it sits uncomfortably and was unnesseary, but its not THAT bad. It stand to be improvedby expending on their origin and especially be extanting on the character of Cawl who, like his faction, is new fluff wise.

Wow.

epronovost wrote:
No need to panic, we can still talk about why the Primaris Marine fluff is so reviled. In my opinion, it sits uncomfortably and was unnesseary, but its not THAT bad. It stand to be improvedby expending on their origin and especially be extanting on the character of Cawl who, like his faction, is new fluff wise.

I just started reading Dark Imperium a couple of days ago and I'm almost done with it, but I think you have a good point in that whether or not the Primaris fluff can ultimately go over successfully lies with Cawl. He is at least an interesting (or rather, mysterious) character. If they can pull off some well-executed revelations or character developments with him it will help me swallow the Primaris lore a bit easier. It would honestly be kind of shocking if he falls out of grace with the Ad Mech or the Imperium at large because the legitimacy of the Primaris would be cast into doubt. I don't think they'll take things in that interesting of a direction but Cawl himself has at least piqued my interest.

 Luciferian wrote:

I just started reading Dark Imperium a couple of days ago and I'm almost done with it, but I think you have a good point in that whether or not the Primaris fluff can ultimately go over successfully lies with Cawl. He is at least an interesting (or rather, mysterious) character. If they can pull off some well-executed revelations or character developments with him it will help me swallow the Primaris lore a bit easier. It would honestly be kind of shocking if he falls out of grace with the Ad Mech or the Imperium at large because the legitimacy of the Primaris would be cast into doubt. I don't think they'll take things in that interesting of a direction but Cawl himself has at least piqued my interest.

I personnaly have no problem believing that in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the Imperium seeked to improve Space Marines. They had both the need for it and were not yet completly stagnant.

I don't have a problem either with the idea that they could have been create in secret since such enterprise were done in the past.

My only problem is linked to the Imperium accepting them and the new technologies they bring at the same time with them in a time of crisis, at a moment where the Imperium was basically the most seized with puritanical and zealous mindset. I don't think the Imperium as a whole should have accepted it so easily. I want to see the struggle for Caw to keep the project secret and ongoing and receive the autorisation to deploy them.

epronovost wrote:

I personnaly have no problem believing that in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the Imperium seeked to improve Space Marines. They had both the need for it and were not yet completly stagnant.

I don't have a problem either with the idea that they could have been create in secret since such enterprise were done in the past.

My only problem is linked to the Imperium accepting them and the new technologies they bring at the same time with them in a time of crisis, at a moment where the Imperium was basically the most seized with puritanical and zealous mindset. I don't think the Imperium as a whole should have accepted it so easily. I want to see the struggle for Caw to keep the project secret and ongoing and receive the autorisation to deploy them.

I think the main lore-related complaint with their creation is that it violates the stagnation and stalemate elements of the Imperium of Man and moves them forward technologically in an unprecedented way, but I agree.

From a story-telling perspective, it's just too good a point of tension building to pass up. Since Robby G has also tied his fate to the Primaris and Cawl it could make for some good possibilities for all of them to fall afoul of the rest of the Imperium together, even if it turns out OK. Hopefully they explore that kind of ground and don't just let it slip by.

 Luciferian wrote:

I think the main lore-related complaint with their creation is that it violates the stagnation and stalemate elements of the Imperium of Man and moves them forward technologically in an unprecedented way, but I agree.

I kind off disagree on that point. their creation dates back from the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. They are not a new technology. They are a very old one. It just was never released before, neither are the anti-grav tanks. The Imperium always had anti-grav vehicles, but none of that size probably because they were ressource consuming, but Cawl had almost 10K years to arm them. The only new thing is the fact that the techonology was released from its vault. Mars is stll just as supersticious as it always was and opposed to change. Primaris Marines and their vehicles are not numerous compared to Space Marines who are themselves not numerous compared to the rest of the Imperium. In the end, the Imperium didn't progressed more technologically than when Custodes and their own advanced weapons like their jetbikes were brought into the field.

From a story-telling perspective, it's just too good a point of tension building to pass up. Since Robby G has also tied his fate to the Primaris and Cawl it could make for some good possibilities for all of them to fall afoul of the rest of the Imperium together, even if it turns out OK. Hopefully they explore that kind of ground and don't just let it slip by.

On that we agree.

Can I ask, are you gay

This is a gay thread, guy. I know for a cold fact that two people posting in this thread were having gay sex at the exact time they were reading it. If you yourself are not a lesbian with another girl’s dick in your other hand right as you’re reading this, get out. Get your life together, burn down an Applebee’s, condone first degree murder, and advocate cannibalism.

Space Marines are supposedly 8' supermen, wheras they are slightly bigger than guardsmen in their armour. Now the new Primaris are 8' supermen, they arent bigger they have truescaled.

In 30k everyone rode around in Rhinos then for religious reasons only astartes and Inquisition forces could have them.

[extended dialogue about how the mechanicus are stupid]

This is why people don’t like primaris fluff. There is oblivious and wrong stuff all over the internet about how space marines are supposed to be 8’ tall and how outrageous it is that the mechanicus aren’t 21st century liberal capitalist rationalists, or rhinos (it was land raiders) are restricted for religious reasons (it was logistic reasons). So GW made up some new marines who really are eight feet tall, and that bothers both the people who thought regular marines were an idiotic eight feet tall all along, and the people who paid attention when GW said they were a vaguely useful size. I freakin love primaris on the other hand because I’m kind of a size queen and it gets me going.

I don't play loyalist marines so I haven't performed more than a cursory scan of the new fluff. I see nothing particularly interesting there.

What was hugely weak sauce for me, is the continued superiority of the Imperium. It just doesn't produce a particularly interesting story. Your "heroes" should never be the most powerful, the best equipped, the most supported. That's generally lazy writing. It's why the Horus Heresy was an excellent invention. Space Marine chapters need flaws. Not lame werewolf flaws, but flaws of character, or previous actions, of decision-making. They would be far more intriguing if they were outnumbered, outgunned, struggling for survival. Every 5-10 years GW puts on the "big bad Chaos show" as they did with the Gathering Storm books.

Narratively they like to pretend that Chaos are resurgent and that there is genuine risk to the Imperium of man....but it's never given any balls. Cadia was blown up. Good riddance. Boring planet, boring guard models..we lose very little. The story of Cadia's fall was atrocious in typical "cram every single race into the same planet" nonsense.

How did the Imperium meet this new threat? This supposed resurgent tide of Chaos? They hit the "Easy" button at the nearest Office Max on a Forgeworld and randomly supplied their whole army with advanced, relic wargear and units. That immediately kills any gravitas that the events surrounding the fall of Cadia had. The "oh man, Chaos is scary...and now we have all new toys!" just doesn't endear me to anything in the universe. It's just relatively lazy storytelling.

I don't find the new storyline heinous...but it sure doesn't intrigue me or interest me in the slightest. It was just a poor excuse for a new wave of model kits.

What I find so frustrating is that the correct path was right in front of them.

Space Marines are supposedly 8' supermen, wheras they are slightly bigger than guardsmen in their armour. Now the new Primaris are 8' supermen, they arent bigger they have truescaled.

Add a primarch and you have a natural answer. Astartes are tough but not as tough as they were in 30K, an awakened primarch means a 1st generation geneseed source and marines can be made as they were in 30K. You could call them primaris as they are throwbacks to the first generation marines. There is no reason why microscopic amounts of Guilliman genetic material couldnt 'fix holes' in geneseed of other primarchs, so primaris could be rolled out around the board. i am assuming here that Guilliman is an unending source of 1st generation genetic material, if not geneseed itself.
It is not unreasonabe to say you can renew geneseed for any marine legion with a drop of primarch blood. CSM primarchs dont count as they are all either dead or daemons.

This also means that CSM shrink to some extent, though new CSM sculpts are bigger than standard marines, they are inbetween primaris and old marines in scale.

As for the vehicles, Guilliman could simply order them unlocked. In 30k everyone rode around in Rhinos then for religious reasons only astartes and Inquisition forces could have them. Grav tanks might have been forbidden technology. But if Guilliman orders Repulsors printed from the STC bumbling guys in red robes cant really do much about it. Just assume that Guilliman took an interest in STC tech first time around, which is highly likely allowing for his character.
Cawl doesnt need to invent a single thing. No single man overturning millenia of stagnation alone. No have Guilliman bypass ten millenia of dogma. we know for instance from one of the forgeworld books that the Lighning fighter took a full millenia to enter service because of the prayer rituals surrounding the STC and testing phase.

It could work like this:

Guilliman. why arent we using grav tanks anymore.
Calgar. Grav tanks, I thought only xenos had them?
Guilliman. No we certainly had the ability. Send in that red robed fool.
Cawl shuffles in.
Guilliman. I want to you print Repulsor tanks from the STC reserves.
Cawl. What? ..... accessing data.
Gulliman. and we need heavy dreadnought while we are at it, and gravbikes.
Cawl. Ahh found it. The Repulsor tank s a most holy design, we need extra prayer to not provoke its creator spirit.
Guilliman. Extra prayer eh? Hmm
Cawl. anything that is bourne aloft from the ground is holier. We needed a thousand years of meditation cycles and placations before the Lighning fighter could be approved. The Repulsor would take even longer, its is not winged as to a bird but is held aloft by the magicks of ancient technology.
Guilliman. a thousand years testing cycle for a light fighter.....hmm.
Cawl. Prayer and meditation yes
Primarch Facepalm
Guilliman. Cawl, I have new instructions for you. Print out a Repulsor tank this afternoon directly from the STC.
Cawl. Without all the order of service?
Guilliman. Yes, just print the tank.
Cawl. If we start meditations now we can be ready for first assemblies in twenty years, less if we do a cycling penitent fast.
Gulliman. Cawl, print the tank.
Cawl. But without the holy procedures.
Guilliman. Add the STC log file to the cognitator here and press Start.
Cawl. Not the holy rune of activation, what if we are judged unworthy by the machine god. We dont even have a choir, no incense burner, nothing!!
Guilliman PRINT. THE. TANK.
.... and Cawl. I want it on the helipad this afternoon for flight testing.
.... and Cawl. once that is done print another 20000 in the first batch. I want twenty for every chapter. Priority delivery.



A bit of thought and you would have the entire new range worked out. Thankfully it is still faxable. The Imperium is big on moral truth. This might indeed be what is happening. Guillimans return allowed marines to get bigger and old STC constructs got activated bypassing all the religious dogmas Guilliman had an evident history of no patience for. However another story had to be put out, for now, so as not to offend the Ecclesiarchy, and that story is also what the fans are currently getting.

Reposted from page 3 because I took the time to contribute but it got drowned out by a sub-discussion.

That was genius!

Because the roll out of the lore was handled badly.

Enough