The Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II, 40k Navigators are rip offs of Dune navigators, and so on. Am I missing anything else? What else?

You folks don't know what you are messing out on if any of you have not read Dune.

The Emperor is clearly a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. If the title of the book below, "God Emperor of Dune" is not a give away, I don't know what is. Leto Atreides II sacrificed his humanity to put the human race on the Golden Path, basically oppress humanity so much and make humanity evolve so that humanity will spread out and not be oppressed again. He sacrificed everything. His life, his legacy, everything. He knew humanity would hate him, but he thought it was worth it.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Emperor-Dune-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441294677

https://www.amazon.com/God-Emperor-Dune-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441294677

This is gonna be a fun one.

Literature inspires other literature news at 11! Snark aside this isn't an uncommon practice in a lot of things. They are good books though would recommend!

Well it's slightly different but yeah, I think a majority of people know this hobby was heavily inspired, if not ripped, from a lot of 80's sci-fi and horror

Who cares if it did, star wars had some inspiration from Dune as well. Many things in life simply are derivative, music is another standout example.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Well it's slightly different but yeah, I think a majority of people know this hobby was heavily inspired, if not ripped, from a lot of 80's sci-fi and horror

Mostly Dune and Starship troopers. Especially Dune.

Dune, Starship Troopers, Lord of the Rings, Rambo, Xenomorphs from Aliens, Robotech and I am sure there are a billion more. Fun fact the Warcraft series from Blizzard was supposed to be a Warhammer Fantasy game.

this is new? I'm pretty sure that all of the cool things from almost every scifi of the 60's-80's can be found in 40k. Dune, 2112, 2001, Aliens, Terminator, etc... I guess the more overt references may be missed if you're only familiar with 3rd ed lore to current.


As much as these threads are entertaining, it's always interesting on how they devolve.

The only similarities were that they both had access to a massive store of historical knowledge, being the emperors of a galaxy-spanning empire, and being considered a god.

Nope, not at all. Leto had no sons that he created to be super umber mensch within a few decades time and then led them on a crusade for several centuries across the entire galaxy. He used soldiers that already existed and were already trained to a high level and made sure they remained the dominant power they already were by the time he took power. Leto was not literally the guiding light of the navigators, he just provided the navigators their drugs.

Their durations as living emperors were considerably different, with the 40K God-Emperor being only a couple centuries before being put on a relatively uncommunicative life support vs Leto's 3500 year reign.

The God-Emperor of 40K NEVER wanted to be known as a god, while Leto sought it out and embraced it.

The super-soldiers of Leto were not engineered directly, but bred and hammered to their level.

While they were both taken down by their own creations, Abaddon was a direct child, while Siona was a many generations-removed niece.

Leto pushed for a revolution by being oppressive, while the 40K GE was oppressive to hide Chaos.

Even how they GOT their stores of knowledge are incredibly different.

So, they are not carbon copies of each other. The 40K GE aren't even 50000th distorted copy of a copy. Too many other influences were pushed in to the 40K GE to consider him a copy in little but name.

 Charistoph wrote:
The only similarities were that they both had access to a massive store of historical knowledge, being the emperors of a galaxy-spanning empire, and being considered a god.

Nope, not at all. Leto had no sons that he created to be super umber mensch within a few decades time and then led them on a crusade for several centuries across the entire galaxy. He used soldiers that already existed and were already trained to a high level and made sure they remained the dominant power they already were by the time he took power. Leto was not literally the guiding light of the navigators, he just provided the navigators their drugs.

Their durations as living emperors were considerably different, with the 40K God-Emperor being only a couple centuries before being put on a relatively uncommunicative life support vs Leto's 3500 year reign.

The God-Emperor of 40K NEVER wanted to be known as a god, while Leto sought it out and embraced it.

The super-soldiers of Leto were not engineered directly, but bred and hammered to their level.

While they were both taken down by their own creations, Abaddon was a direct child, while Siona was a many generations-removed niece.

Leto pushed for a revolution by being oppressive, while the 40K GE was oppressive to hide Chaos.

Even how they GOT their stores of knowledge are incredibly different.

So, they are not carbon copies of each other. The 40K GE aren't even 50000th distorted copy of a copy. Too many other influences were pushed in to the 40K GE to consider him a copy in little but name.

The Crusade Imperium was a good place to live, especially Ultramar.

Also ripped off asimov's foundation, The Alien movies, the terminator movies, the hellraiser movies....

"The Imperial Sardaukar are soldier-fanatics loyal to the Padishah Emperors of House Corrino, who have ruled the Known Universe (the Imperium) for over 10,000 years at the time of the events of the first novel in the series, Dune. The key to House Corrino's hold on the Imperial throne, the Sardaukar troops are the foremost soldiers in the universe and are feared by all. They are secretly trained on the inhospitable Imperial Prison Planet of Salusa Secundus: the harsh conditions there ensure that only the strongest and most "ferocious" men survive."

The original space marines from rouge trader were reconditioned criminals so that fits as well.

Brother, if you're upset that 40k has ripped off other fantasy ideas, we need to sit down and have a chat.

meleti wrote:
Brother, if you're upset that 40k has ripped off other fantasy ideas, we need to sit down and have a chat.

I am not. I dig the two franchises.

Hmm, what's in the 40k melting pot....
Off the top of my head:

Dune
Starship Troopers (the book)
Aliens
2000 A.D.
Judge Dredd
Terminator
some StarCraft once some of the tyranids were redesigned in 3rd/4th
Brit pop culture & punk
Silent Running - every time I see my 2e+ dreadnoughts (wich is often) I can't fail to see weaponized versions of Huey, Louie & Dewey....
Rambo - who do you think Sly Marbo is?
WWI
WWII

 rhinosaur wrote:
"The Imperial Sardaukar are soldier-fanatics loyal to the Padishah Emperors of House Corrino, who have ruled the Known Universe (the Imperium) for over 10,000 years at the time of the events of the first novel in the series, Dune. The key to House Corrino's hold on the Imperial throne, the Sardaukar troops are the foremost soldiers in the universe and are feared by all. They are secretly trained on the inhospitable Imperial Prison Planet of Salusa Secundus: the harsh conditions there ensure that only the strongest and most "ferocious" men survive."

The original space marines from rouge trader were reconditioned criminals so that fits as well.

I love the campy logic to that. "People put in inhospitable circumstances become superior warriors." I guess we better watch out that Australia doesn't conscript all those refugees they've been dumping on that island with the high mortality rate. The only ones who could stop them would be the Somali legion of doom.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love the campy logic to that. "People put in inhospitable circumstances become superior warriors." I guess we better watch out that Australia doesn't conscript all those refugees they've been dumping on that island with the high mortality rate. The only ones who could stop them would be the Somali legion of doom.

Agreed, I see this trope pushed far too often in fiction. I think the saying goes "War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left."

Put 100 men on a prison planet and have them kill each other until 10 are left won't get you the best warriors. It will give you the best survivors. There is a difference.

A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

'Best' is a relative term. Ireland has one of the 'best' special forces in the world and we're 'non-aligned' and are exclusively peacekeepers.

Anyway, I think what this thread has thrown up is that there's very little original under the sun. Warhammer was influenced by Tolkien, which was influenced by Old English and Norse. Harry Potter was influenced by all those boarding school mysteries popular in the 50s and 60s. Event Horizon is exactly how I'd imagine first contact with the Warp to go, but whether it was definitely inspired by 40k, I don't know.

I don't think anybody could argue that this game of toy soldiers we all like so much is a mosh mash of various other texts and ideas.

rhinosaur wrote:The original space marines from rouge trader were reconditioned criminals so that fits as well.

It's worth remembering that particular bit of fluff only lasted about 6 months before getting retconned to the surgically-and-genetically-altered-child-soldier-warrior-monk version we've had since.

Techpriestsupport wrote:A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

It made sense for the Sardaukar, though, since they were terror-troops rather than what we'd think of as proper professional soldiers. It'd be like if all Astartes were Night Lords. If you don't care about collateral damage (because you have plenty more worlds to exploit) and just want to terrify everyone into compliance, then no problem. Try to use them against an enemy that cannot be cowed into submission (i.e. the Fremen), on a planet whose population and infrastructure you cannot afford to just blindly destroy (because it's the sole source of the substance your empire needs to exist) and it all falls apart.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

A prison style enviroment would teach you how to survive in a prison style enviroment, not a lot of those skills would necessarily transfer to a high tech military enviroment and its a hell of a push to claim Israel as the worlds 'best' military.

 ingtaer wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

A prison style enviroment would teach you how to survive in a prison style enviroment, not a lot of those skills would necessarily transfer to a high tech military enviroment and its a hell of a push to claim Israel as the worlds 'best' military.

And the Emperor was meant to be based on Leto Atreides II. They want to save humanity, are God Emperors, immortal, and so on. One difference being is that Leto Atreides II is much less arrogant.

http://asimov.wikia.com/wiki/Scientism


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ingtaer wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

A prison style enviroment would teach you how to survive in a prison style enviroment, not a lot of those skills would necessarily transfer to a high tech military enviroment and its a hell of a push to claim Israel as the worlds 'best' military.

I am comfortable with my assertion.

Just you wait until you get around to reading fantasy and discover that JRR Tolkien ripped off the Norse! Then everyone ripped off Tolkien!





but yeah a lot of writing, esp in fiction, inspires each other. You get some BIG stories that inspire a whole swathe, such as Lord of the Rings; whilst others have more minor impacts. And yes 40K is born of the 80s and comes with everything you'd expect. We've got terminators and Cenobites and heck the original Tyranid Hormagaunts were Alien Aliens with an extra pair of lance-like arms.
DnD is lifted right out of Lord of the Rings and yet builds on it with a class style system that nearly every PC RPG game has copy-catted .

The strongest influence is 2000AD, and Judge Dredd in particular.

Interestingly, both are broadly similar satires, with similar roots in post-industrial decline in Britain.

Compare Mega-City One to an Imperial Hive. Same principle, one just on a larger scale. Both are brutal, fascistic regimes, presented (satirically) as the only way to maintain order.

I’ve read an awful, awful lot of Dredd, and a good bit of 2000AD (thank you, Hachette!). And you do start to see Warhammer 40,000 influence stuff in 2000AD and Judge Dredd. This is most pronounced in Dan Abnett’s ‘Insurrection” series.

And that is of course pretty normal. The fact that one author did it first doesn’t mean everyone that follows is a copying hack. Without The Vampyre, A Tale (by John William Polidori), we wouldn’t have Bram Stoker’s Dracula. Without Bram Stoker’s Dracula, we wouldn’t have, well, I’m sure you can see where I’m going.

It’s no different to movies or music. Yet barring Oasis being a low rent Beatles tribute act, it’s not often worried about. There are periods of greater innovation, sure. If you look at the wide era between the birth of Punk up to Britpop, you get a real hodgepodge of interconnecting sounds and styles. That happens to be my favourite period for music, so the one I’m best placed to use as an example. And it’s fairly often that the ‘first’ band may be the most influential, but aren’t in fact all that good (hello, Sex Pistols). But that they were first, and inspired many others to start their own band?

Proper Nerd Note? The Sex Pistols weren’t in fact the first Punk Band Of Note in the U.K. that’d be The Damned (Who were also much, much better!)

Being inspired by the actions and art of others is a human trait. I don’t get why people get so sniffy about it.

I think those who get really annoyed are the copycatting is excessive to the point where its just a few name changes and its the identical same story/idea. Of course if you boil enough stories down to their barest components many can appear "the same". But this is when the comparisons are everywhere. Ergo its far closer to just blatant plagiarism than inspiration

Of course there can be a grey area there, many say that Eragon is just Starwars in fantasyland, for example.

Certainly once you read into any genre you can very quickly see some common inspirational works and if you really read into them you can see patterns shifting and changing over time. Eg one modern pattern that has emerged is the deeper understanding of Ork lore and of establishing orks are more than just a mindless force of wild raiding nature. Giving them a voice, making them characters with motivations, feelings and such. A far cry from the older days when the ork was basically your boogyman character on a national scale. A faction to be hated, feared and easily warred against without question.


In films we've seen it too; post WW2 it was Nazis; then it was Russians, then we had Zombies

When something is a cheap cash-in, sure, I get it.

But to use OP’s examples?

The God-Emperor of mankind basically just shares a title with Leto Atredies II. One is a gestalt entity made up of ancient Shamans, psychically potent but all spazzed up on his throne. The other is a weirdo that covered himself in fish.

The Guild Navigators are horrifically mutated, addicted to Spice, and fold space to get peeps from A-B. Navigator Houses are a specific, cultivated breed of mutant with a third eye that guy ships Through Actual Hell. They are otherwise full humanoid.

Again, they’re pretty much just sharing a job title.

The inspiration is clear. But they’re otherwise really quite different, and certainly nowhere near a ‘rip off’.

Men of Iron / Butlerian Jihad? Common tropes, with the origin ultimately going back to The Industrial Revolution. Machines were taking jobs away. Luddites formed to smash the machines. We got the word saboteur from French workers throwing their wooden shoes, or Sabatons, into the workings of machines to knacker them. Both are examples of man’s uneasy relationship with his ever advancing technology. It’s a reflection of the fear of us developing it too fast, Cold War paranoia, and concerns about how we’ll handle mass unemployment.

So Frank Herbert wrote about it. But he didn’t invent it. It’s a concern which originates waaaay before he first put pen to paper.

Heck, we even see the idea further developing in the (not unfairly) maligned Terminator 3, which accounts for The Internet. John Connor says that because of that advent, Skynet is all but undefeatable. It’s everywhere. It has places to hide that the original films didn’t know about.

Fear of the machine, and man losing control isn’t an invention of Frank Herbert. He just imagined a bit further out.

The idea of a "god emperor" didn't start with dune. For centuries the Japanese believed their emperor was literally descended from god. He was likey the first God emperor.

The romans routinely deified emperor's after they died. Caligula tried to jump the gun and declare himself a living God. His non necron praetorians quickly demonstrated his mortality to him.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

Except the Sardaukar (prison trained soldiers) in Dune are thoroughly and completely trounced by the Fremen (nomadic tribesmen).

As it was said in Sharpe: "All that flogging a man does is teach him how to turn his back." Getting your soldiers from prisons is much the same thing.

Lets face it, the Sardaukar prison planet is likely more than just a large lockup; nor even a prison as we might understand it today.

Also don't forget that the Fremen had the advantage of fighting on home ground; of the wyrding modules (sound weapons) and of riding huge worms that, for all intents and purposes, were invulnerable to most traditional weaponry.

Also note that the great houses conducted war with "rules" of engagement which limited what they could and couldn't do. The Fremen were not limited by such rules and codes of conduct. I believe they cracked the shield with nuclear weapons (which were denied to the great houses, hence why the Barron had to use "archaic" artillery). So the Sardaukar might be ultimate warriors, but they were also hindered by their own fearsome reputation and the enemies they fought. The Fremen were not cowled by the might and fear of them, nor by any rules of war; they were a wild force and thus did have the upper hand.


Having a demi-god fight for them also helped as did weight of numbers.

MalfunctBot wrote:
This is gonna be a fun one.

You'd think his constant mentioning of =][= Obi Wan Sherlock Cleuseau would have clued him in that 40k borrows a lot of things. Obviously not.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
The idea of a "god emperor" didn't start with dune. For centuries the Japanese believed their emperor was literally descended from god. He was likey the first God emperor.

The romans routinely deified emperor's after they died. Caligula tried to jump the gun and declare himself a living God. His non necron praetorians quickly demonstrated his mortality to him.

The japanese and romans must have copied that from the egyptian Pharaos, how lazy of them!

When it comes to the emperor I'd advise people read the Runestaff trilogy by Michael Moorcock. There is some very familiar stuff there.

Including a life support throne for an emperor.

And of course both share the fiction steadily getting worse

Dunno.

Pretty sure none of the 40k writers have become absolute sex cases.

Yet.

So basically, what they did was they put Warhammer IN SPAAAAAACE. But IN SPAAAACE was defined by using Dune as the archetypical SPAAAACE. I would highly recommend reading Dune in order to understand some of the design decisions which go into 40k, as well as giving a sort of perspective on how an empire can become so stagnant as the Imperium.

Don’t even need to go that far.

40k is rooted in Britain’s late 20th Century industrial decline.

I’ve got dim memories of it from my childhood, and many areas have since been redeveloped and somewhat gentrified (especially in London).

The minds behind 40k would’ve grown up in the waning years of Britain’s industry, likely seeing dockyards, shipyards, steelyards etc all slowly rotting away, both as industries and buildings.

For example? I work in Canary Wharf. Well. Docklands. I’m just over the footbridge from Canary Wharf.

This is what it looks like today.
And this is what it looked like in the 1970’s.





[img]
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRb_kS26cOOptoY6xyFKJTDm7y6bLBWa9GcCKnQDYXLz870IEmr[/img]

It was decayed. Defunct. Unloved. Just the carcass of former imperial majesty and industry slowly rotting away. The wealth it once brought long gone.

It’s now a gleaming metropolis. I’ve always considered it to be like Delta City from Robocop. Hell, I’d not long started working in that area when the Robocop remake landed. I strongly recall wandering to my coach stop. I crossed in front of Canary Wharf Tube Station, my eyes fell upon the massive video advertising board. Playing on it was a trailer/advert for Robocop. I came very close to having to pinch myself.

That to me is 40k. It’s the decline of Empire. Those who broke their backs to spin goods into profits forgotten about and left to rot. Hell, the area around Canary Wharf, Tower Hamlets, is to this day one of the most deprived areas in Europe, let alone the U.K., whilst Canary Wharf itself is (well, perhaps soon ‘was’) the Financial heart of Europe, the foundation for a new British Economy. It’s literally The Sump surrounding The Spire.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the true inspiration behind 40k.

Darn Londoners trying to steal everything!

You can also see the Roman era too tough; the edges of pleasure and decadence more reflected in the story of the Eldar in how they grew to greatness and then destroyed themselves on pleasure, lust, blood and excess as they enjoyed the fruits of their vast empire and technology.

It’s typically how the fruits of Empire are distributed.

Those that were on the right side at the right time do well. Everyone else, not so much. Soon as a particular ration of industry has played its part, those in charge couldn’t give a fig.


Also, I’m Scottish. Like Kirk who simply works in Space, I only work in Lahndahn Tahn!

You also have to recognize the era 40k was designed during. As a game it was centered around a very 80's mindset that gave us movies like the original Robocop, which is filled with dark, political satire. A more modern version is the Starship Troopers movie, although that was a more cartoonish take on political satire.

w1zard wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love the campy logic to that. "People put in inhospitable circumstances become superior warriors." I guess we better watch out that Australia doesn't conscript all those refugees they've been dumping on that island with the high mortality rate. The only ones who could stop them would be the Somali legion of doom.

Agreed, I see this trope pushed far too often in fiction. I think the saying goes "War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left."

Put 100 men on a prison planet and have them kill each other until 10 are left won't get you the best warriors. It will give you the best survivors. There is a difference.

There is no difference. Most would say the survivors are the best warriors.
Like the Scars say "Better to be lucky than good."

They only changed it to the child soldiers because back in the 80s/90s. They were all the rage in the news at the time.

I think the Sardaukar were considered soft by the time they met the Fremen anyway.
Mainly because the Emp improved there world and they lost their edge.

This thread has happened before.
This thread will happen again.

Nonsense.

You can a well hard fighter, maybe even a warrior. But you’ll still fail when you come up against a Soldier.

Soldiers have training, skills and most importantly, discipline.

A squad of, erm, squaddies, works because they’re trained to work together. Some will give covering fire as their brothers in arms advance, only to return the favour.

I don’t care how hard a given person is, or how hard they think they are. When they’re faced with disciplined and trained soldiers, they’re dead meat.

A fighter thinks only of themself and their own personal glory. A trained squad sees beyond that. That’s the whole point.

And we see it again and again and again throughout history. The Phalanx. Napoleonic square and line. The first bayonet charge.

It’s all about who is the best trained and the best disciplined. They’re the poor sods that bleed and die, but achieve victory.

That’s why the Astra Militarum can knack Traitor Legionaires. That’s why the Space Marine Legions in turn were largely undefeatable. That’s why the shattered Legions clung on, and became forced to be reckoned with in time.

Example. I’m 17 stone, 6’2” and built like a brick outhouse. But I’ve no combat training. At all. Put me in a cage fight with someone far smaller, but with even a modicum of combat training, and I’ll just give up.

Why? Because of my sheer size, something I’ve never worked on, I tend to get left the hell alone. I look scary, but really I’m about as hard as mashed potato. Anyone who knows what they’re doing, or is just really, really pissed off can easily flatten me.

Training. Discipline. That’s what counts.

 Overread wrote:
Just you wait until you get around to reading fantasy and discover that JRR Tolkien ripped off the Norse! Then everyone ripped off Tolkien!





but yeah a lot of writing, esp in fiction, inspires each other. You get some BIG stories that inspire a whole swathe, such as Lord of the Rings; whilst others have more minor impacts. And yes 40K is born of the 80s and comes with everything you'd expect. We've got terminators and Cenobites and heck the original Tyranid Hormagaunts were Alien Aliens with an extra pair of lance-like arms.
DnD is lifted right out of Lord of the Rings and yet builds on it with a class style system that nearly every PC RPG game has copy-catted .

There was a lot of great fantasy that had nothing to do with Tolkien written before Tolkien bloomed into mainstream popularity in the 70's. Jack Vance had as much influence on Fantasy, including DnD, and still does. Robert Howard and his contemporaries were not nothing, either. And Warhammer took at least as much from Moorcock as Tolkien.

But, yeah, there is nothing new under the sun. Real artists don't borrow--they steal. Stealing from one is plagiarism but stealing from many is research. Etc.. Warhammer is the well-researched product of real artists.

the ancient wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Put 100 men on a prison planet and have them kill each other until 10 are left won't get you the best warriors. It will give you the best survivors. There is a difference.

There is no difference. Most would say the survivors are the best warriors.
Like the Scars say "Better to be lucky than good."

They only changed it to the child soldiers because back in the 80s/90s. They were all the rage in the news at the time.

I think the Sardaukar were considered soft by the time they met the Fremen anyway.
Mainly because the Emp improved there world and they lost their edge.

And I suppose the guy that hid while everyone killed each other and survives to be the last one left is a rock hard killing machine right? Please...

Like I said, being the best survivor != being the best soldier, or even the best warrior. Just the sneakiest/most treacherous/most cunning survivalist. Or simply the luckiest.

w1zard wrote:
And I suppose the guy that hid while everyone killed each other and survives to be the last one left is a rock hard killing machine right? Please...

Like I said, being the best survivor != being the best soldier, or even the best warrior. Just the sneakiest/most treacherous/most cunning survivalist. Or simply the luckiest.

IIRC the idea behind these prison-planet soldiers was a bit more complex than just making them individual survival experts. An army famous for forming three-man groups protecting each other in chaotic melees is not an army of men that don't trust any of the others, it's an army of men that trust the others to have their back. They were put in an extreme environment and subject to harsh discipline so they'd become tough, sure, but they had to work together to survive. And there was a religious element to it, where those who "graduated" were told they really are the best of the best, favored by God, destined to stand among the ranks of the Sardaukar.

Kind of taking present-day SpecForce training and indoctrination, then turning it up to eleven. Just like GW does with Space Marine recruitment when they really go over the top with how few get selected and even fewer make it through. Does it make any more sense that you get the "best" marines by recruiting the guys who are capable of killing their friends or leaving them to die? No. They're also supposed to learn to rely on their squadmates and get indoctrinated in the Chapter Cult.

There's a lot of this in there too. An alien demon fighting a xenocidal, future-medieval, Spanish inquisition inspired human empire. Sounds very familiar.

Yep. 2000AD again.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


But, yeah, there is nothing new under the sun. Real artists don't borrow--they steal. Stealing from one is plagiarism but stealing from many is research. Etc.. Warhammer is the well-researched product of real artists.

I hold the view that here are three kinds of people.
1) The majority who see that everything has been done before and, whilst they are capable of emulation and adaptation, they are not incapable of, but do not see the potential for totally new ideas.

2) The middle row who don't care either way

3) The extreme minority (which is not to say unique nor one off, but sometimes are) who either see or, by blind luck, discover something new!


So yeah its all be done. Except those things that have yet to be done, they've not been done, yet. They are out there, not waiting to be discovered, but just out there with the potential to be found.

 Overread wrote:
Lets face it, the Sardaukar prison planet is likely more than just a large lockup; nor even a prison as we might understand it today.

Also don't forget that the Fremen had the advantage of fighting on home ground; of the wyrding modules (sound weapons) and of riding huge worms that, for all intents and purposes, were invulnerable to most traditional weaponry.

Also note that the great houses conducted war with "rules" of engagement which limited what they could and couldn't do. The Fremen were not limited by such rules and codes of conduct. I believe they cracked the shield with nuclear weapons (which were denied to the great houses, hence why the Barron had to use "archaic" artillery). So the Sardaukar might be ultimate warriors, but they were also hindered by their own fearsome reputation and the enemies they fought. The Fremen were not cowled by the might and fear of them, nor by any rules of war; they were a wild force and thus did have the upper hand.


Having a demi-god fight for them also helped as did weight of numbers.

The wyrding modules do not exist in the book. That was entirely made up for the film. In the books the Fremen kill with their knives using guerrilla tactics. They are also incredibly successful off planet (Paul's visions of the great jihad) where the home field advantage doesn't apply, nor are there sand worms on every world for them to ride.

So even without their major advantages, the Fremen are still superior to the elite prison soldiers.

As for the use of nuclear weapons, Paul was only able to get away with his use because he used legalistic wrangling with regards to the law preventing their use: "Use of atomics against humans shall be cause for planetary obliteration." He didn't use the weapons against any humans, he used it against a mountain range ("a natural feature of the desert"), therefore he didn't break the convention. Every house has nuclear weapons, they just didn't have the cunning to circumvent the convention in the way Paul did, nor did they have the advantage of doing so whilst based on the one planet that could not be destroyed.

Hmm I've played too much Dune and not read the book in years, I was sure the wyrding modules featured in the book. Also even though the Nuclear weapons were used on a mountain range I think Paul still twisted fate a bit to get away with that, partly because he was the Chosen One and just wiped out the Emperor and his elite guard.

Esp since he also now controlled the planet and only source of Spice; thus the Nagivators could not refuse him. The Spice must Flow and Paul basically showed that he ruled the supply and could keep it flowing, if he so chose.

Edit
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Module

Ah now I know why I'm confused. The Weirding Way training takes place, just with martial arts rather than machines.


PS for all its flaws I still rank that early first Dune film as utterly fantastic at capturing the look and feel of the world of Dune. It captured the atmosphere of the setting in a way that has yet to be beaten. It's limits were mostly trying to push the story into too little time and limits on the visual technologies of the film and day (even then the nagivator scenes were fantastic). I still would love to see that same style and aesthetic on a much grander, larger scale

 ingtaer wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

A prison style enviroment would teach you how to survive in a prison style enviroment, not a lot of those skills would necessarily transfer to a high tech military enviroment and its a hell of a push to claim Israel as the worlds 'best' military.

I agree with most of this. And the Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. What the Emperor revealed in Master of Mankind about wanting humanity to psychically evolve when talking to Ra was similar to the Golden Path.

+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.’

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not?

+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+

The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about– +Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+

The hubris… Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.

+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I – as ruler – bring salvation.+

but what are your thoughts?

I doubt Laurie Golding or ADB intentionally echoed the Dune Sequels, or that they are even conversant with their content. The writers for GW today are an entirely different generation to the creators of 40k, with different influences and an order of magnitude more genre material at their disposal throughout their formative years.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I doubt Laurie Golding or ADB intentionally echoed the Dune Sequels, or that they are even conversant with their content. The writers for GW today are an entirely different generation to the creators of 40k, with different influences and an order of magnitude more genre material at their disposal throughout their formative years.

Rick Priestley did echo it, and he is the Stan Lee of 40k.

Rick Priestley, one of the creators I was indicating, hasn't had anything to do with the Horus Heresy novel series or the current state of the background, or even the last few editions' background. I was addressing your previous post about Master of Mankind, and Rick Priestley had nothing to do with that.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Rick Priestley, one of the creators I was indicating, hasn't had anything to do with the Horus Heresy novel series or the current state of the background, or even the last few editions' background. I was addressing your previous post about Master of Mankind, and Rick Priestley had nothing to do with that.

Alright.

Oh my god it's almost like things build off of previous literature. Amazing.

Onething123456 wrote:
And the Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. What the Emperor revealed in Master of Mankind about wanting humanity to psychically evolve when talking to Ra was similar to the Golden Path.

+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.’

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not?

+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+

The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about– +Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+

The hubris… Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.

+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I – as ruler – bring salvation.+

but what are your thoughts?

How humorous, it's like you really don't know or remember either fiction very well, or you seriously do not know what carbon copying is. Leto embraced his religion and tried to breed in to people the genetics of HIDING from prescients. The 40K GE was oppressive about allowing any religion but atheism and tried to train his people in proper use of their prescient powers.

They are more mirror copies of each other than they are carbon copies of each other.

 Charistoph wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And the Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. What the Emperor revealed in Master of Mankind about wanting humanity to psychically evolve when talking to Ra was similar to the Golden Path.

+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.’

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not?

+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+

The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about– +Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+

The hubris… Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.

+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I – as ruler – bring salvation.+

but what are your thoughts?

How humorous, it's like you really don't know or remember either fiction very well, or you seriously do not know what carbon copying is. Leto embraced his religion and tried to breed in to people the genetics of HIDING from prescients. The 40K GE was oppressive about allowing any religion but atheism and tried to train his people in proper use of their prescient powers.

They are more mirror copies of each other than they are carbon copies of each other.

I mean to say that he and Leto are similar, not completely the same. God Emperors. Ruthless when they need to be, and having humanity evolve.

Someone on Reddit asked Rick Priestley in an interview ( an interview which he gave photographs of in a link in the Reddit thread) asked if things like the Emperor/Leto Atreides II and other Dune similarities, and he said yes. Rick Priestley is the Stan Lee of 40k and he confirmed it.

So..... does that mean that Duncan Idaho was the original and Saint Celestine is the copy?

There are some differences betwixt the universes. As far as I can recall cloning happens in 40k but certainly not very much. In Dune there is an entire group of people that specifically do cloning for various different reasons. The Tleilaxu are genetic manipulators and gene growers that would make Fabius Bile look like he was putting square pegs in round holes.

The Fremen, oddly enough, were originally non-combatants, and refused to fight. Generations later their society changed internally and after learning how to close quarter combat with the best of them, they were then taught the Weirding Way of fighting. They could literally alter reality around themselves and appear to teleport. Eldar Warp Spiders wish they were that good.

There are so many more things that I could go on about beings as I read much about 40k, all of the Dune series that both Frank and his kid wrote based off of Franks notes. I see more differences than I do similarities.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
So..... does that mean that Duncan Idaho was the original and Saint Celestine is the copy?

There are some differences betwixt the universes. As far as I can recall cloning happens in 40k but certainly not very much. In Dune there is an entire group of people that specifically do cloning for various different reasons. The Tleilaxu are genetic manipulators and gene growers that would make Fabius Bile look like he was putting square pegs in round holes.

The Fremen, oddly enough, were originally non-combatants, and refused to fight. Generations later their society changed internally and after learning how to close quarter combat with the best of them, they were then taught the Weirding Way of fighting. They could literally alter reality around themselves and appear to teleport. Eldar Warp Spiders wish they were that good.

There are so many more things that I could go on about beings as I read much about 40k, all of the Dune series that both Frank and his kid wrote based off of Franks notes. I see more differences than I do similarities.

Not to disagree with you just to disagree, but if the rumors about the death korps of krieg are true there's actually a hell of a lot of cloning going on in the imperium, it's just kept very secret and done in a "mass production" basis...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
So..... does that mean that Duncan Idaho was the original and Saint Celestine is the copy?

There are some differences betwixt the universes. As far as I can recall cloning happens in 40k but certainly not very much. In Dune there is an entire group of people that specifically do cloning for various different reasons. The Tleilaxu are genetic manipulators and gene growers that would make Fabius Bile look like he was putting square pegs in round holes.

The Fremen, oddly enough, were originally non-combatants, and refused to fight. Generations later their society changed internally and after learning how to close quarter combat with the best of them, they were then taught the Weirding Way of fighting. They could literally alter reality around themselves and appear to teleport. Eldar Warp Spiders wish they were that good.

There are so many more things that I could go on about beings as I read much about 40k, all of the Dune series that both Frank and his kid wrote based off of Franks notes. I see more differences than I do similarities.

Not to disagree with you just to disagree, but if the rumors about the death korps of krieg are true there's actually a hell of a lot of cloning going on in the imperium, it's just kept very secret and done in a "mass production" basis...

They are actually test tube babies as far as I have read... although on such a massive scale so as to be right next to cloning for production output.

Cloning absolutely does exist in 40k. As does genetic manipulation and other forms of procreation.

Houses Goliath and Escher are of particular note here.

However, it's not a universal process. Some planets may do on a regular basis. Others simply don't have the tech. Others yet may simply lack the inclination.

Cloning is a massive part of the plot of Red & Black, an audio drama about Sisters of Battle visiting a world that lost contact with the Imperium. Cloning technology was at some point part of the STC package and this world still had it.

Overread wrote:.


PS for all its flaws I still rank that early first Dune film as utterly fantastic at capturing the look and feel of the world of Dune. It captured the atmosphere of the setting in a way that has yet to be beaten. It's limits were mostly trying to push the story into too little time and limits on the visual technologies of the film and day (even then the nagivator scenes were fantastic). I still would love to see that same style and aesthetic on a much grander, larger scale

I've always liked the film in spite of its differences to the novel. The feel and art design had a significant impact on RT (evidenced by the artwork).
David Lynch should be hired to direct a 40k movie.

 Overread wrote:
Hmm I've played too much Dune and not read the book in years, I was sure the wyrding modules featured in the book. Also even though the Nuclear weapons were used on a mountain range I think Paul still twisted fate a bit to get away with that, partly because he was the Chosen One and just wiped out the Emperor and his elite guard.

Esp since he also now controlled the planet and only source of Spice; thus the Nagivators could not refuse him. The Spice must Flow and Paul basically showed that he ruled the supply and could keep it flowing, if he so chose.

Edit
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Module

Ah now I know why I'm confused. The Weirding Way training takes place, just with martial arts rather than machines.


PS for all its flaws I still rank that early first Dune film as utterly fantastic at capturing the look and feel of the world of Dune. It captured the atmosphere of the setting in a way that has yet to be beaten. It's limits were mostly trying to push the story into too little time and limits on the visual technologies of the film and day (even then the nagivator scenes were fantastic). I still would love to see that same style and aesthetic on a much grander, larger scale

In the book, the Sardaukar and Fremen were both the product of being raised in a harsh environment and only allowing the strongest to survive. The difference was that the Sardaukar had moved past that, so the current troops simply didn't live up to their reputation, but no-one except Paul and the Fremen had tried to test them (their planet, Salusa Secundus, had gone from being a deathworld penal colony to being the homeworld of House Corrino, after all - while still wild, it had been significantly controlled). I think it's a reflection of the Arab uprising against the Ottomans around the time of World War 1.

The same thing happened to the Fremen in God Emperor after they'd left Arrakis and got a taste for the luxuries of the Imperium.

There is a lot of Dune tech in 40k. Suspensors for one, and lots of others.

 Skinnereal wrote:
There is a lot of Dune tech in 40k. Suspensors for one, and lots of others.

Those were around in sci fi for decades before Dune. If you want to play this game, there's almost nothing in Dune that can't be traced to an earlier work in one form or another.

It's all traceable back to the invention of fire darn it!!


Also Bob - you are no longer experiencing Technical Difficulties

Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

Yvraine as Morgana Le Fay confirmed.

nobody tell OP about A Canticle for Liebowitz.

Onething123456 wrote:
Leto Atreides II sacrificed his humanity to put the human race on the Golden Path, basically oppress humanity so much and make humanity evolve so that humanity will spread out and not be oppressed again. He sacrificed everything. His life, his legacy, everything. He knew humanity would hate him, but he thought it was worth it.

There are people in different mythologies/religions who did the same, was Leto a rip off of them?
This is a very frequent plot in religious and secular literature since mankind told stories.

It wasn't oppression so much as Humanity's survival, attempting to create something that couldn't be controlled or tracked using the powers available to Leto (super-human computation and precognition). It was so Humanity would avoid Arafel, or extinction.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

No. Everything in 40K is created in a vacuum in the heads of the designers, with no outside influence of any kind.

They said so in court, so it must be true.

The Emperor's goals are mostly the same as Leto Atreides II's goals (minus the Emperor being a human supremacist wanting humanity to rule over other species and rule the stars).

The AI in Dune are a lot like the Men of Iron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-uGQifqvgg

This video says it.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

Yvraine as Morgana Le Fay confirmed.

This

the_scotsman wrote:nobody tell OP about A Canticle for Liebowitz.

This

insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

No. Everything in 40K is created in a vacuum in the heads of the designers, with no outside influence of any kind.

They said so in court, so it must be true.

and more this

OP may wish to look into the goals of, well, every Emperor, ever.

GIven they're Emperors. Or Empresses. Of Empires. Aggressively expanded Empires covering as much of the world as they could get away with. Because that's what Empires are.

Onething123456 wrote:
The Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II, 40k Navigators are rip offs of Dune navigators, and so on. Am I missing anything else? What else?

You folks don't know what you are messing out on if any of you have not read Dune.

The Emperor is clearly a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. If the title of the book below, "God Emperor of Dune" is not a give away, I don't know what is. Leto Atreides II sacrificed his humanity to put the human race on the Golden Path, basically oppress humanity so much and make humanity evolve so that humanity will spread out and not be oppressed again. He sacrificed everything. His life, his legacy, everything. He knew humanity would hate him, but he thought it was worth it.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Emperor-Dune-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441294677

https://www.amazon.com/God-Emperor-Dune-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441294677

No gak sherlock. You've just rediscovered a secret lost for 30 years

Trace it back far enough and it's all based on Homer and Bede with a sprinkling of Sturluson anyway

There is no original literature, just new ways of writing the same things

 Dr Coconut wrote:

There is no original literature, just new ways of writing the same things

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

Has the OP set the record for most closed threads yet?

It's been a while since we had a thread about the inspirations for 40k.

We've already had most of the genre/pop-culture references, but no-one's mentioned Commedia del'Arte, baroque and gothic art and literature (no mention yet of Gormenghast? for shame!) celtic art and culture), classical history (or at least, modern interpretations of the classical era), westerns, and I'm sure I've missed plenty more.

AndrewGPaul wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

Exactly. 40k is based on and influenced by every book ever written or to be written. As the whole setting is constantly developing through every BL book published, the influences and direct rip offs are increasing. Give it long enough and a "50 shades..." plot will appear

jorzolek wrote:Has the OP set the record for most closed threads yet?

Can't be bothered to count, probably smashed it though.

Other people have said that none of this is new, as Tolkien ripped off the Norse and then everyone ripped off Tolkien with their Fantasy franchises and so on.

I already knew about Tolkien, but not most of the others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
OP may wish to look into the goals of, well, every Emperor, ever.

GIven they're Emperors. Or Empresses. Of Empires. Aggressively expanded Empires covering as much of the world as they could get away with. Because that's what Empires are.

Should I read 2000AD?

Calling Tolkien's work a 'rip off' of anyone is doing the man a disservice. While he was certainly inspired by Norse mythology, whatever you think of his writing, his books are an impressive example of world-building.

Similarly, while many fantasy authors have used his work as a jumping off point (some more blatantly than others -cough-Eddings-cough-Brooks-), you can't really just dismiss an entire genre as a 'rip off' of Tolkien. Authors are inspired by what they themselves have read, seen or experienced, and so it's inevitable that familiar threads will show up one way or another in their work.


Even 40K, for as much as it may have started out as the frankensteinian offspring of LotR, Dune, 2000AD and any number of other works of varying levels of obscurity, it's evolved over the years into something very much its own thing.

Dune is a popular target for ripoffs in SF. The old RPG "spacemaster" was an in your face ripoff of dune. Trust me.

BTW spacemaster was a pretty decent dog actually, I kinda miss it.

original (rogue trader) fiction inspiration that I can remember

Frank herbert's dune - lasguns, navigators, immortal emperor guiding humanity to a nebulous destiny, shields which stop guns but not blades (1st gen power fields), elite forces raised from impressed criminals and deathworlders

George Lucas' Star wars - 'bladeless' power swords, psychic powers referred to as 'the force', deathstars namechecked in the book, massively oppressive psychic emperor, "obiwan"

Robert Henlein's Starship Troopers - Drop pods & power armour

Timothy Zahn's The Blackcollar - chemically and medically enhanced supersoldiers (okay, not a concept unique to the book but it's a very successful classic sci-fi book published about the right time; note that original marines were faster and stronger but no tougher than baseline humanity)

Isaac Asimov's Foundation - Tech Priesthood

2000AD's Judge Dredd - Arbites and Hive Cities

JRR Tolkein's Lord of The Rings (Via Warhammer) - Eldar, Orcs, Ratlings & Squats

Lionel Johnson's "The Dark Angel" - seriously, you figure it out; it's not exactly hard.

Ridley Scott's Alien - Genestealers

Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.

Tolkien had a creative mind. So did Frank Herbert.

Onething123456 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.

Tolkien had a creative mind. So did Frank Herbert.

Well, yes. They're novelists. That's kind of like calling water wet. Plenty of writers are creative, but there's a reason Tolkien in particular is seen as so important, and it's mainly down to the depth of the world he created. That has many facets, including deep characters but there's also a lot of skill involved in creating a world that feels alive and real, rather than one that seems to have been brought into being purely to service the story.

Don't forget Tolkien took a lot of his depth and structure from the Norse Mythologies.

Also I would say that today there are worlds as deep if not some deeper than his Middle Earth. One area he might stand out in as an exception is that he made Elvish as a full language as opposed to basing it off a real language and just changing letters or using an old dead language.
Otherwise I think he was one of the first big world builders who showed the power of a wide and deep background lore and what it can do for writers, esp those aiming to write what we'd call an epic fantasy today.

Which is not to say that adventure and short stories don't benefit from deep lore too, but that they can often get away without it for a time and can build it more on the fly as they go. Whilst an Epic fantasy needs that structure there and then at the start because much of the story is going to affect huge swathes of the world and characters fairly fast.

It's also worth nothing that Tolkien, like 40k both take alot of historical influences as well.

LoTR, on a certain level is the fantasy of if some lost son of the Western Roman empire was able to rise from it, takencommand of the Eastern empire (with the help of some friendly Anglo-Saxons) and defeats the steppe hordes.

40K also takes alot of cues from the late Roman empire- its an Empire in decline; a period of faded glory and the central govenment is increasingly fragmented ineffectual and prone to infightingl. Yet in those places it has control its turned so draconian that the locals migjt have cause to throw in their lot with tue barbarians (chaos and/or Tau). All the while enemies are closing in. We'll see if the the Constantine/Justinian/Heraclius figure that is Robute is enough to turn the fortunes of the Imperium around.

Just like is Aragorn would prove enough to reunite the Eastern and Western Empire. (Or in LoTR parleance, The kingdoms of the North and South)

Sigh*

The OP seems to have written an inflammatory initial post as usual so the thread will wind being closed soon enough.

The world of Warhammer 40k is too vast to call it a carbon copy of any specific work of fiction. Yes it borrows tropes from books like Dune but it is not a ripoff. Leto Atreides II is a very different character from the Warhammer 40k emporer. You would know this if you read Children of Dune carefully.

A source of inspiration for 40k that I haven’t seen mentioned yet is Apocalypse Now, and to a lesser extent Heart of Darkness. They inspired the character of Konrad Curze.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.

Tolkien had a creative mind. So did Frank Herbert.

Well, yes. They're novelists. That's kind of like calling water wet. Plenty of writers are creative, but there's a reason Tolkien in particular is seen as so important, and it's mainly down to the depth of the world he created. That has many facets, including deep characters but there's also a lot of skill involved in creating a world that feels alive and real, rather than one that seems to have been brought into being purely to service the story.

I haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, but I would think.

I would have wanted to meet Frank Herbert.

If you haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, stop reading any 40k stuff immediately and go read it.

Slipspace wrote:
If you haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, stop reading any 40k stuff immediately and go read it.

So I should read the books? Alright.

Did you love reading Frank Herbert's Dune books? I loved reading Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

Onething123456 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
If you haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, stop reading any 40k stuff immediately and go read it.

So I should read the books? Alright.

Did you love reading Frank Herbert's Dune books? I loved reading Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

Not just LotR, Hobbit and Silmarillion too.

Hobbit yes, but SImarillion is optional. If you love LotR, try, but it’s a lot harder read. Lots of gems in there, but they are unpolished.

I think the Dune series started strong, slowed down in the middle books, and picked up a bit at the end. This is the original Frank Herbert books. Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

 Nevelon wrote:
Hobbit yes, but SImarillion is optional. If you love LotR, try, but it’s a lot harder read. Lots of gems in there, but they are unpolished.

I think the Dune series started strong, slowed down in the middle books, and picked up a bit at the end. This is the original Frank Herbert books. Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

Reading God Emperor of Dune had me think Leto Atreides II is a lot less arrogant than the Emperor.

I'll see about reading Lord of the Rings.

 Nevelon wrote:
Hobbit yes, but SImarillion is optional. If you love LotR, try, but it’s a lot harder read. Lots of gems in there, but they are unpolished.

I think the Dune series started strong, slowed down in the middle books, and picked up a bit at the end. This is the original Frank Herbert books. Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

The Silmarillion is Tolkien's most Tolkien book, and my favorite of his works. It's full of world building, languages, and short character arcs that don't get bogged down. I'm of the opinion that LOTR is fine, but really shows its age. The reason I think Tolkien is so popular isn't that he is among the best, but among the first. Still worth reading, though.

I enjoyed the first Dune but couldn't get through the second book in the series. I'll give it another try some day...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I'm of the opinion that LOTR is fine, but really shows its age. The reason I think Tolkien is so popular isn't that he is among the best, but among the first. Still worth reading, though.

My opinion is that the first LOTR book was among the best fantasy novels ever written. The series really got bogged down in the second book, but the third book managed to pick the tale back up and finish strong... apart from one particular section where Gandalf sits on a porch, smokes weed, and talks about philosophy for an absurd amount of pages.

Seriously hard to find a fantasy novel as good as the Fellowship of the Ring.

Pretty much every 3 book series I've read that's "epic" in style (as opposed to adventures where each adventure basically fits into one book); always has the middle book slow down.

In general slowdown has to happen because otherwise the story is being pushed too hard. A moment of pause, consolidation etc.. is often required. Some stories get away with avoiding this with tricks - for example Malazan book of the Fallen gets away with avoiding it by shifting continents and time spots so that whilst the first roster of characters is having their quite moment you're focusing on a totally separate roster in another land. First book to second whilst Whiskyjack and his Bridge Burners are recovering after their war; we jump to the open deserts and see the rising power that is massing there explode into life.

Of course, Lord of the Rings wasn't written as three books; it was intended, IIRC, as one novel with six major sections (The Fellowship of the Ring is books I and II, The Two Towers is books III and IV and The Return of the King is books V and VI plus appendices). Books III and IV in particular aren't really related, so that volume as a whole is a little off.

The Lord of the Rings was published as it was due to the publisher's financial concerns, nothing to do with Tolkien.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Of course, Lord of the Rings wasn't written as three books; it was intended, IIRC, as one novel with six major sections (The Fellowship of the Ring is books I and II, The Two Towers is books III and IV and The Return of the King is books V and VI plus appendices). Books III and IV in particular aren't really related, so that volume as a whole is a little off.

The Lord of the Rings was published as it was due to the publisher's financial concerns, nothing to do with Tolkien.

Yup, the stories of Frodo/Sam and the rest of the Fellowship have no connection in The Two Towers. Nothing that Aragorn and co. do has any direct impact on Frodo's journey during the events of The Two Towers. Obviously this is not the case in Fellowship and in Return of the King the orcs leaving Mordor to attack Minas Tirith and then to the battle at the Black Gate makes it possible for Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor to Mount Doom from Cirith Ungol.

 Nevelon wrote:
Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

Fully concur with this. The immediate Dune prequels were pretty solid (albeit mildly fetishistic) but once he dug into the Butlerian Jihad and the post-God Emperor material gak got bizzare and disgusting.

Slipspace wrote:

Well, yes. They're novelists. That's kind of like calling water wet. Plenty of writers are creative, but there's a reason Tolkien in particular is seen as so important, and it's mainly down to the depth of the world he created. That has many facets, including deep characters but there's also a lot of skill involved in creating a world that feels alive and real, rather than one that seems to have been brought into being purely to service the story.

Tolkien was a professor of Anglo Saxon and Literature. The lord of the Rings and the associated works are an English mythology and a backstory for his languages something to give them the sort of allusions and metaphors that English and other real languages have accumulated over the centuries.

One other thing that came to me yesterday; there's a post in the Warlord news thread about their new fantasy ruleset, "Warlords of Erehwon". Erewhon is a novel by Samuel Butler, which is a satire on Victorian society, about the discovery and exploration of a fictional country Erewhon. A large theme is the lack of machines, described as dangerous (the author also discussed the possibility of machines evolving intelligence - in 1863!). Samuel Butler is who Dune's Butlerian Jihad is named after. In 40k, the Imperium's proscription of artificial intelligence comes directly from Dune, but ultimately from a Victorian satire.

For the rest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, you'll want A Canticle for Liebowitz, Asimov's Foundation series (specifically the The mayors section), War of the Worlds (giant walking machines on Mars ) and a history of the role played by Christian monasteries in preserving learning in the medieval period.

Wait. I missed the part about the God Emperor of Mankind being a giant sand worm that vomits up Spice, communicates telepathically, and floats around on a anti-gravity bed?

 Tamwulf wrote:
Wait. I missed the part about the God Emperor of Mankind being a giant sand worm that vomits up Spice, communicates telepathically, and floats around on a anti-gravity bed?

I mean, if you want to get *really* metaphorical, Big E was a giant that lights the astronomicon, spills his secrets via his tarot and chills on his big honking throne. Ticks many of the same boxes (albeit with enough salt to line a couple of metric tonnes of margarita glasses).

Yeah, the OP might want to go off and find out what a "carbon copy" is.

Still, there are similarities - both sacrificed their humanity for the good of their empire, both are immobile and isolated from their people. I'm sure there's other things that went into the idea of the Emperor in 40k, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Yeah, the OP might want to go off and find out what a "carbon copy" is.

Still, there are similarities - both sacrificed their humanity for the good of their empire, both are immobile and isolated from their people. I'm sure there's other things that went into the idea of the Emperor in 40k, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

I conceded that. They are more mirror copies at best.

You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

'Someone said...' doesn't automatically make them correct.

'Carbon copies' suggests they are identical, which is not the case.
'Mirror copies' would suggest either that they are identical or exactly opposite, depending on context.. but again, neither is the case.

Dune is just one of a number of sources of inspiration for the 40K universe. It's a melange of stuff taken from all sorts of places ahem... the brains of the developers with absolutely no outside influence, your Honor...

 insaniak wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

'Someone said...' doesn't automatically make them correct.

'Carbon copies' suggests they are identical, which is not the case.
'Mirror copies' would suggest either that they are identical or exactly opposite, depending on context.. but again, neither is the case.

Dune is just one of a number of sources of inspiration for the 40K universe. It's a melange of stuff taken from all sorts of places ahem... the brains of the developers with absolutely no outside influence, your Honor...

The Emperor was heavily inspired by Leto Atreides II, is what I mean.

The major difference is that Leto II recruited his elite soldiers from women, not men.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

But what do you think? Do you always just say what someone else tells you to? If you do, it can lead to situations like this where it seems you haven't fully thought through what you're saying because it's not actually your idea. In this case, a bit of thought would probably lead to the conclusion that the two universes are not carbon copies or mirror copies of one another at all. There's some inspiration there, yes, but I really don't think it's anywhere near the level you're implying. Perhaps in the very early days of 40k it might have been but the 40k background has progressed and changed since those days, leading to an Emperor and Imperium that is very different from its original inspiration.

Seems the OP has just read one of the things that influenced...sorry your honour - that happened to coincidentally share a few concepts with - 40K, and gone WOW....

Maybe they should stop posting and go and read more, far more....all the things mentioned in this thread and more besides...keep reading stuff, I suspect you might just get your mind blown....

Yes, it did take a big scoop of ice cream out of the Dune container. Maybe even two. But they took from plenty of other containers when making that sunday too. It's not that uncommon in game settings.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

Fully concur with this. The immediate Dune prequels were pretty solid (albeit mildly fetishistic) but once he dug into the Butlerian Jihad and the post-God Emperor material gak got bizzare and disgusting.

Eh. Except the Tleilaxu infiltrators in the kid's very first book were running around shouting slogans and religious maxims that immediately gave away their 'secret faith' that they held and kept to themselves until long after Leto II was dead and gone (it didn't actually get revealed until Heretics or Chapter-House). IIRC, he also randomly screwed up Jessica's family tree for no apparent reason. It was pretty poorly done from the start.

It wasn't the plot elements that put me off. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson just couldn't do a decent pastiche of Frank's writing style. They just felt like generic sci-fi "extruded book product".

I liked Penny Arcade's comment; "by the end, the 'notes of Frank Herbert' they were working from was an old Post-It note with 'write more Dune books' scribbled on it" The OOP and non-canon Dune Encyclopedia is much better, IMO.

Rick Priestly, Andy Chambers et al never made any secret about where the inspirations of 40k came from. It's a melange of 80s Punk/anti-Thatcherism Britan, Dune, 2000AD, Michal Moorcock, LoTR and numerous other influences, all cast into something of its own.

Some of these are more obvious than others (the Dune influences for instance), with the Sardakur as Space Marines, of warp travel and 'navigators', and of galaxy-spanning crumbling empires. You have the more subtle, underlying and satirical influence of 2000AD and the Judge Dredd setting as well, although that disappeared towards the tail-end of 1st edition when the 40k universe started taking itself more seriously.

What I will say is that the setting has evolved a lot since then (it's nothing like as derivative as it once was).

As an interesting side-point, as the OP has in this case (disregarding the 'carbon copy' comment) it's funny that every now and again I'll come across a bit of sci-fi or fantasy literature which you can see may have been influential. Just reading To Die in Italbar, by Roger Zelazny, in which the main protagonist bears more than a passing resemblance to a priest of Nurgle or similar. I'd say almost certainly that one probably influenced Brian Ansell concerning that part of the Chaos pantheon (although the nature of the disease/healing is much more subtle than in the case of Fantasy/40k)

Rick Priestly, Andy Chambers et al never made any secret about where the inspirations of 40k came from. It's a melange of 80s Punk/anti-Thatcherism Britan, Dune, 2000AD, Michal Moorcock, LoTR and numerous other influences, all cast into something of its own.

Heh, you said "melange" in a "40k ripped off Dune" thread.

This isn't news.




It is an admitted fact that Dune was a heavy inspiration for 40k, among many other sci-fi settings. Dune is to dark Sci-fi what LotR is to High Fantasy.

As other posters have pointed out, it should be news to nobody that 40k borrows heavily from Dune. For fun, it's worth pointing out that the 'feudal future' trope had become an established outside of 'proper SF' by the 1970s.

There's a wonderful 1978 Doctor Who story, The Ribos Operation, that invokes a very Dune-like setting (and then ~because budget~ scales it down to stories of desparate conmen on a primitive backwater world).

(Who writer Robert Holmes evidently liked Dune; Ribos, Kroll and Caves are Dune restaged in respectively polystyrene corridors, a marsh and a quarry.)

A lot of what we consider tropes made by Dune actually existed for decades before Dune was written. Dune is just the most widely known and influential work utilizing them.

Creativity in fiction is much like creativity in cooking, in that it's more about how you arrange and prepare the ingredients rather than the ingredients themselves.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Creativity in fiction is much like creativity in cooking, in that it's more about how you arrange and prepare the ingredients rather than the ingredients themselves.

word

 Nurglitch wrote:
Creativity in fiction is much like creativity in cooking, in that it's more about how you arrange and prepare the ingredients rather than the ingredients themselves.

The first lesson anyone learns after reading enough books is that Ecclesiastes was right.

There is nothing new under the sun. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have fun with it.