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MalfunctBot wrote:
This is gonna be a fun one.

You'd think his constant mentioning of =][= Obi Wan Sherlock Cleuseau would have clued him in that 40k borrows a lot of things. Obviously not.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
The idea of a "god emperor" didn't start with dune. For centuries the Japanese believed their emperor was literally descended from god. He was likey the first God emperor.

The romans routinely deified emperor's after they died. Caligula tried to jump the gun and declare himself a living God. His non necron praetorians quickly demonstrated his mortality to him.

The japanese and romans must have copied that from the egyptian Pharaos, how lazy of them!

When it comes to the emperor I'd advise people read the Runestaff trilogy by Michael Moorcock. There is some very familiar stuff there.

Including a life support throne for an emperor.

And of course both share the fiction steadily getting worse

Dunno.

Pretty sure none of the 40k writers have become absolute sex cases.

Yet.

So basically, what they did was they put Warhammer IN SPAAAAAACE. But IN SPAAAACE was defined by using Dune as the archetypical SPAAAACE. I would highly recommend reading Dune in order to understand some of the design decisions which go into 40k, as well as giving a sort of perspective on how an empire can become so stagnant as the Imperium.

Don’t even need to go that far.

40k is rooted in Britain’s late 20th Century industrial decline.

I’ve got dim memories of it from my childhood, and many areas have since been redeveloped and somewhat gentrified (especially in London).

The minds behind 40k would’ve grown up in the waning years of Britain’s industry, likely seeing dockyards, shipyards, steelyards etc all slowly rotting away, both as industries and buildings.

For example? I work in Canary Wharf. Well. Docklands. I’m just over the footbridge from Canary Wharf.

This is what it looks like today.
And this is what it looked like in the 1970’s.





[img]
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRb_kS26cOOptoY6xyFKJTDm7y6bLBWa9GcCKnQDYXLz870IEmr[/img]

It was decayed. Defunct. Unloved. Just the carcass of former imperial majesty and industry slowly rotting away. The wealth it once brought long gone.

It’s now a gleaming metropolis. I’ve always considered it to be like Delta City from Robocop. Hell, I’d not long started working in that area when the Robocop remake landed. I strongly recall wandering to my coach stop. I crossed in front of Canary Wharf Tube Station, my eyes fell upon the massive video advertising board. Playing on it was a trailer/advert for Robocop. I came very close to having to pinch myself.

That to me is 40k. It’s the decline of Empire. Those who broke their backs to spin goods into profits forgotten about and left to rot. Hell, the area around Canary Wharf, Tower Hamlets, is to this day one of the most deprived areas in Europe, let alone the U.K., whilst Canary Wharf itself is (well, perhaps soon ‘was’) the Financial heart of Europe, the foundation for a new British Economy. It’s literally The Sump surrounding The Spire.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the true inspiration behind 40k.

Darn Londoners trying to steal everything!

You can also see the Roman era too tough; the edges of pleasure and decadence more reflected in the story of the Eldar in how they grew to greatness and then destroyed themselves on pleasure, lust, blood and excess as they enjoyed the fruits of their vast empire and technology.

It’s typically how the fruits of Empire are distributed.

Those that were on the right side at the right time do well. Everyone else, not so much. Soon as a particular ration of industry has played its part, those in charge couldn’t give a fig.


Also, I’m Scottish. Like Kirk who simply works in Space, I only work in Lahndahn Tahn!

You also have to recognize the era 40k was designed during. As a game it was centered around a very 80's mindset that gave us movies like the original Robocop, which is filled with dark, political satire. A more modern version is the Starship Troopers movie, although that was a more cartoonish take on political satire.

w1zard wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love the campy logic to that. "People put in inhospitable circumstances become superior warriors." I guess we better watch out that Australia doesn't conscript all those refugees they've been dumping on that island with the high mortality rate. The only ones who could stop them would be the Somali legion of doom.

Agreed, I see this trope pushed far too often in fiction. I think the saying goes "War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left."

Put 100 men on a prison planet and have them kill each other until 10 are left won't get you the best warriors. It will give you the best survivors. There is a difference.

There is no difference. Most would say the survivors are the best warriors.
Like the Scars say "Better to be lucky than good."

They only changed it to the child soldiers because back in the 80s/90s. They were all the rage in the news at the time.

I think the Sardaukar were considered soft by the time they met the Fremen anyway.
Mainly because the Emp improved there world and they lost their edge.

This thread has happened before.
This thread will happen again.

Nonsense.

You can a well hard fighter, maybe even a warrior. But you’ll still fail when you come up against a Soldier.

Soldiers have training, skills and most importantly, discipline.

A squad of, erm, squaddies, works because they’re trained to work together. Some will give covering fire as their brothers in arms advance, only to return the favour.

I don’t care how hard a given person is, or how hard they think they are. When they’re faced with disciplined and trained soldiers, they’re dead meat.

A fighter thinks only of themself and their own personal glory. A trained squad sees beyond that. That’s the whole point.

And we see it again and again and again throughout history. The Phalanx. Napoleonic square and line. The first bayonet charge.

It’s all about who is the best trained and the best disciplined. They’re the poor sods that bleed and die, but achieve victory.

That’s why the Astra Militarum can knack Traitor Legionaires. That’s why the Space Marine Legions in turn were largely undefeatable. That’s why the shattered Legions clung on, and became forced to be reckoned with in time.

Example. I’m 17 stone, 6’2” and built like a brick outhouse. But I’ve no combat training. At all. Put me in a cage fight with someone far smaller, but with even a modicum of combat training, and I’ll just give up.

Why? Because of my sheer size, something I’ve never worked on, I tend to get left the hell alone. I look scary, but really I’m about as hard as mashed potato. Anyone who knows what they’re doing, or is just really, really pissed off can easily flatten me.

Training. Discipline. That’s what counts.

 Overread wrote:
Just you wait until you get around to reading fantasy and discover that JRR Tolkien ripped off the Norse! Then everyone ripped off Tolkien!





but yeah a lot of writing, esp in fiction, inspires each other. You get some BIG stories that inspire a whole swathe, such as Lord of the Rings; whilst others have more minor impacts. And yes 40K is born of the 80s and comes with everything you'd expect. We've got terminators and Cenobites and heck the original Tyranid Hormagaunts were Alien Aliens with an extra pair of lance-like arms.
DnD is lifted right out of Lord of the Rings and yet builds on it with a class style system that nearly every PC RPG game has copy-catted .

There was a lot of great fantasy that had nothing to do with Tolkien written before Tolkien bloomed into mainstream popularity in the 70's. Jack Vance had as much influence on Fantasy, including DnD, and still does. Robert Howard and his contemporaries were not nothing, either. And Warhammer took at least as much from Moorcock as Tolkien.

But, yeah, there is nothing new under the sun. Real artists don't borrow--they steal. Stealing from one is plagiarism but stealing from many is research. Etc.. Warhammer is the well-researched product of real artists.

the ancient wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Put 100 men on a prison planet and have them kill each other until 10 are left won't get you the best warriors. It will give you the best survivors. There is a difference.

There is no difference. Most would say the survivors are the best warriors.
Like the Scars say "Better to be lucky than good."

They only changed it to the child soldiers because back in the 80s/90s. They were all the rage in the news at the time.

I think the Sardaukar were considered soft by the time they met the Fremen anyway.
Mainly because the Emp improved there world and they lost their edge.

And I suppose the guy that hid while everyone killed each other and survives to be the last one left is a rock hard killing machine right? Please...

Like I said, being the best survivor != being the best soldier, or even the best warrior. Just the sneakiest/most treacherous/most cunning survivalist. Or simply the luckiest.

w1zard wrote:
And I suppose the guy that hid while everyone killed each other and survives to be the last one left is a rock hard killing machine right? Please...

Like I said, being the best survivor != being the best soldier, or even the best warrior. Just the sneakiest/most treacherous/most cunning survivalist. Or simply the luckiest.

IIRC the idea behind these prison-planet soldiers was a bit more complex than just making them individual survival experts. An army famous for forming three-man groups protecting each other in chaotic melees is not an army of men that don't trust any of the others, it's an army of men that trust the others to have their back. They were put in an extreme environment and subject to harsh discipline so they'd become tough, sure, but they had to work together to survive. And there was a religious element to it, where those who "graduated" were told they really are the best of the best, favored by God, destined to stand among the ranks of the Sardaukar.

Kind of taking present-day SpecForce training and indoctrination, then turning it up to eleven. Just like GW does with Space Marine recruitment when they really go over the top with how few get selected and even fewer make it through. Does it make any more sense that you get the "best" marines by recruiting the guys who are capable of killing their friends or leaving them to die? No. They're also supposed to learn to rely on their squadmates and get indoctrinated in the Chapter Cult.

There's a lot of this in there too. An alien demon fighting a xenocidal, future-medieval, Spanish inquisition inspired human empire. Sounds very familiar.

Yep. 2000AD again.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


But, yeah, there is nothing new under the sun. Real artists don't borrow--they steal. Stealing from one is plagiarism but stealing from many is research. Etc.. Warhammer is the well-researched product of real artists.

I hold the view that here are three kinds of people.
1) The majority who see that everything has been done before and, whilst they are capable of emulation and adaptation, they are not incapable of, but do not see the potential for totally new ideas.

2) The middle row who don't care either way

3) The extreme minority (which is not to say unique nor one off, but sometimes are) who either see or, by blind luck, discover something new!


So yeah its all be done. Except those things that have yet to be done, they've not been done, yet. They are out there, not waiting to be discovered, but just out there with the potential to be found.

 Overread wrote:
Lets face it, the Sardaukar prison planet is likely more than just a large lockup; nor even a prison as we might understand it today.

Also don't forget that the Fremen had the advantage of fighting on home ground; of the wyrding modules (sound weapons) and of riding huge worms that, for all intents and purposes, were invulnerable to most traditional weaponry.

Also note that the great houses conducted war with "rules" of engagement which limited what they could and couldn't do. The Fremen were not limited by such rules and codes of conduct. I believe they cracked the shield with nuclear weapons (which were denied to the great houses, hence why the Barron had to use "archaic" artillery). So the Sardaukar might be ultimate warriors, but they were also hindered by their own fearsome reputation and the enemies they fought. The Fremen were not cowled by the might and fear of them, nor by any rules of war; they were a wild force and thus did have the upper hand.


Having a demi-god fight for them also helped as did weight of numbers.

The wyrding modules do not exist in the book. That was entirely made up for the film. In the books the Fremen kill with their knives using guerrilla tactics. They are also incredibly successful off planet (Paul's visions of the great jihad) where the home field advantage doesn't apply, nor are there sand worms on every world for them to ride.

So even without their major advantages, the Fremen are still superior to the elite prison soldiers.

As for the use of nuclear weapons, Paul was only able to get away with his use because he used legalistic wrangling with regards to the law preventing their use: "Use of atomics against humans shall be cause for planetary obliteration." He didn't use the weapons against any humans, he used it against a mountain range ("a natural feature of the desert"), therefore he didn't break the convention. Every house has nuclear weapons, they just didn't have the cunning to circumvent the convention in the way Paul did, nor did they have the advantage of doing so whilst based on the one planet that could not be destroyed.

Hmm I've played too much Dune and not read the book in years, I was sure the wyrding modules featured in the book. Also even though the Nuclear weapons were used on a mountain range I think Paul still twisted fate a bit to get away with that, partly because he was the Chosen One and just wiped out the Emperor and his elite guard.

Esp since he also now controlled the planet and only source of Spice; thus the Nagivators could not refuse him. The Spice must Flow and Paul basically showed that he ruled the supply and could keep it flowing, if he so chose.

Edit
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Module

Ah now I know why I'm confused. The Weirding Way training takes place, just with martial arts rather than machines.


PS for all its flaws I still rank that early first Dune film as utterly fantastic at capturing the look and feel of the world of Dune. It captured the atmosphere of the setting in a way that has yet to be beaten. It's limits were mostly trying to push the story into too little time and limits on the visual technologies of the film and day (even then the nagivator scenes were fantastic). I still would love to see that same style and aesthetic on a much grander, larger scale

 ingtaer wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
A prison style environment produces people who fight to keep themselves alive. Good soldiers fight to keep their countey alive.

That's probably why Israel as the words best, if far from biggest, military.

A prison style enviroment would teach you how to survive in a prison style enviroment, not a lot of those skills would necessarily transfer to a high tech military enviroment and its a hell of a push to claim Israel as the worlds 'best' military.

I agree with most of this. And the Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. What the Emperor revealed in Master of Mankind about wanting humanity to psychically evolve when talking to Ra was similar to the Golden Path.

+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.’

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not?

+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+

The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about– +Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+

The hubris… Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.

+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I – as ruler – bring salvation.+

but what are your thoughts?

I doubt Laurie Golding or ADB intentionally echoed the Dune Sequels, or that they are even conversant with their content. The writers for GW today are an entirely different generation to the creators of 40k, with different influences and an order of magnitude more genre material at their disposal throughout their formative years.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I doubt Laurie Golding or ADB intentionally echoed the Dune Sequels, or that they are even conversant with their content. The writers for GW today are an entirely different generation to the creators of 40k, with different influences and an order of magnitude more genre material at their disposal throughout their formative years.

Rick Priestley did echo it, and he is the Stan Lee of 40k.

Rick Priestley, one of the creators I was indicating, hasn't had anything to do with the Horus Heresy novel series or the current state of the background, or even the last few editions' background. I was addressing your previous post about Master of Mankind, and Rick Priestley had nothing to do with that.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Rick Priestley, one of the creators I was indicating, hasn't had anything to do with the Horus Heresy novel series or the current state of the background, or even the last few editions' background. I was addressing your previous post about Master of Mankind, and Rick Priestley had nothing to do with that.

Alright.

Oh my god it's almost like things build off of previous literature. Amazing.

Onething123456 wrote:
And the Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. What the Emperor revealed in Master of Mankind about wanting humanity to psychically evolve when talking to Ra was similar to the Golden Path.

+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.’

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not?

+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+

The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about– +Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+

The hubris… Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.

+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I – as ruler – bring salvation.+

but what are your thoughts?

How humorous, it's like you really don't know or remember either fiction very well, or you seriously do not know what carbon copying is. Leto embraced his religion and tried to breed in to people the genetics of HIDING from prescients. The 40K GE was oppressive about allowing any religion but atheism and tried to train his people in proper use of their prescient powers.

They are more mirror copies of each other than they are carbon copies of each other.

 Charistoph wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
And the Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. What the Emperor revealed in Master of Mankind about wanting humanity to psychically evolve when talking to Ra was similar to the Golden Path.

+The webway. Mankind is ascending, Ra. Humanity is taking a great developmental step, evolving into a psychic race. Uncontrolled psykers are lodestones for the warp’s touch. A species comprising them would suffer as the eldar suffered. And for the eldar, this evolutionary juncture was their final step before destruction. I will not let humanity be destroyed by the same fate. The eldar had the answers within their grasp but were too naive and too proud to save themselves. They had the webway, which could have been their salvation. But they never fully severed their connection to the warp. Their soulfires drew damnation upon their entire species.’

Ra knew this, yet never had it been related to him in these exact words, flavoured as they were by the promise of prophecy. With the webway, humanity would need no Navigators. They would never need to rely on the unreliable warp-whispers of astropaths. Vessels would never enter the warp to be lost or torn apart by the entities that dwelt within it. But the eldar had done the same, had they not?

+No. They eradicated their reliance on the warp but they never severed their species’ connection to it. I will do that for humanity, once and for all.+

Ra twisted in the nothingness, turning to stare at the light of so many distant stars. He faced Terra without knowing how he knew its direction, only knowing that he was right. One of those pinprick starlights was Sol, so far away.

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.+

The primarchs, thought Ra. The Thunder Legion. The Unification Wars. The Great Crusade. The Space Marine Legions. The Imperial Truth. The Webway Project. The Black Ships, with psykers huddled in the holds, watched over by the Silent Sisterhood. It is all about– +Control. Tyranny is not the end, Ra. Absolute control is but the means to the end.+

The hubris… Ra couldn’t fight the insidiously treacherous thought, to see the hidden depths of his master’s ambitions. The sheer, unrivalled hubris.

+The necessity.+ The Emperor’s voice was iced iron. +Not arrogance. Not vainglory. Necessity. I have already told you, Ra. Humans need rulers. Now you see why. A single murder is on one end of the spectrum, for rulers bring law. The hope of the entire race is at the far end of the continuum, for I – as ruler – bring salvation.+

but what are your thoughts?

How humorous, it's like you really don't know or remember either fiction very well, or you seriously do not know what carbon copying is. Leto embraced his religion and tried to breed in to people the genetics of HIDING from prescients. The 40K GE was oppressive about allowing any religion but atheism and tried to train his people in proper use of their prescient powers.

They are more mirror copies of each other than they are carbon copies of each other.

I mean to say that he and Leto are similar, not completely the same. God Emperors. Ruthless when they need to be, and having humanity evolve.

Someone on Reddit asked Rick Priestley in an interview ( an interview which he gave photographs of in a link in the Reddit thread) asked if things like the Emperor/Leto Atreides II and other Dune similarities, and he said yes. Rick Priestley is the Stan Lee of 40k and he confirmed it.

So..... does that mean that Duncan Idaho was the original and Saint Celestine is the copy?

There are some differences betwixt the universes. As far as I can recall cloning happens in 40k but certainly not very much. In Dune there is an entire group of people that specifically do cloning for various different reasons. The Tleilaxu are genetic manipulators and gene growers that would make Fabius Bile look like he was putting square pegs in round holes.

The Fremen, oddly enough, were originally non-combatants, and refused to fight. Generations later their society changed internally and after learning how to close quarter combat with the best of them, they were then taught the Weirding Way of fighting. They could literally alter reality around themselves and appear to teleport. Eldar Warp Spiders wish they were that good.

There are so many more things that I could go on about beings as I read much about 40k, all of the Dune series that both Frank and his kid wrote based off of Franks notes. I see more differences than I do similarities.