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Don't forget Tolkien took a lot of his depth and structure from the Norse Mythologies.

Also I would say that today there are worlds as deep if not some deeper than his Middle Earth. One area he might stand out in as an exception is that he made Elvish as a full language as opposed to basing it off a real language and just changing letters or using an old dead language.
Otherwise I think he was one of the first big world builders who showed the power of a wide and deep background lore and what it can do for writers, esp those aiming to write what we'd call an epic fantasy today.

Which is not to say that adventure and short stories don't benefit from deep lore too, but that they can often get away without it for a time and can build it more on the fly as they go. Whilst an Epic fantasy needs that structure there and then at the start because much of the story is going to affect huge swathes of the world and characters fairly fast.

It's also worth nothing that Tolkien, like 40k both take alot of historical influences as well.

LoTR, on a certain level is the fantasy of if some lost son of the Western Roman empire was able to rise from it, takencommand of the Eastern empire (with the help of some friendly Anglo-Saxons) and defeats the steppe hordes.

40K also takes alot of cues from the late Roman empire- its an Empire in decline; a period of faded glory and the central govenment is increasingly fragmented ineffectual and prone to infightingl. Yet in those places it has control its turned so draconian that the locals migjt have cause to throw in their lot with tue barbarians (chaos and/or Tau). All the while enemies are closing in. We'll see if the the Constantine/Justinian/Heraclius figure that is Robute is enough to turn the fortunes of the Imperium around.

Just like is Aragorn would prove enough to reunite the Eastern and Western Empire. (Or in LoTR parleance, The kingdoms of the North and South)

Sigh*

The OP seems to have written an inflammatory initial post as usual so the thread will wind being closed soon enough.

The world of Warhammer 40k is too vast to call it a carbon copy of any specific work of fiction. Yes it borrows tropes from books like Dune but it is not a ripoff. Leto Atreides II is a very different character from the Warhammer 40k emporer. You would know this if you read Children of Dune carefully.

A source of inspiration for 40k that I haven’t seen mentioned yet is Apocalypse Now, and to a lesser extent Heart of Darkness. They inspired the character of Konrad Curze.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.

Tolkien had a creative mind. So did Frank Herbert.

Well, yes. They're novelists. That's kind of like calling water wet. Plenty of writers are creative, but there's a reason Tolkien in particular is seen as so important, and it's mainly down to the depth of the world he created. That has many facets, including deep characters but there's also a lot of skill involved in creating a world that feels alive and real, rather than one that seems to have been brought into being purely to service the story.

I haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, but I would think.

I would have wanted to meet Frank Herbert.

If you haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, stop reading any 40k stuff immediately and go read it.

Slipspace wrote:
If you haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, stop reading any 40k stuff immediately and go read it.

So I should read the books? Alright.

Did you love reading Frank Herbert's Dune books? I loved reading Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

Onething123456 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
If you haven't read Lord of the Rings yet, stop reading any 40k stuff immediately and go read it.

So I should read the books? Alright.

Did you love reading Frank Herbert's Dune books? I loved reading Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

Not just LotR, Hobbit and Silmarillion too.

Hobbit yes, but SImarillion is optional. If you love LotR, try, but it’s a lot harder read. Lots of gems in there, but they are unpolished.

I think the Dune series started strong, slowed down in the middle books, and picked up a bit at the end. This is the original Frank Herbert books. Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

 Nevelon wrote:
Hobbit yes, but SImarillion is optional. If you love LotR, try, but it’s a lot harder read. Lots of gems in there, but they are unpolished.

I think the Dune series started strong, slowed down in the middle books, and picked up a bit at the end. This is the original Frank Herbert books. Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

Reading God Emperor of Dune had me think Leto Atreides II is a lot less arrogant than the Emperor.

I'll see about reading Lord of the Rings.

 Nevelon wrote:
Hobbit yes, but SImarillion is optional. If you love LotR, try, but it’s a lot harder read. Lots of gems in there, but they are unpolished.

I think the Dune series started strong, slowed down in the middle books, and picked up a bit at the end. This is the original Frank Herbert books. Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

The Silmarillion is Tolkien's most Tolkien book, and my favorite of his works. It's full of world building, languages, and short character arcs that don't get bogged down. I'm of the opinion that LOTR is fine, but really shows its age. The reason I think Tolkien is so popular isn't that he is among the best, but among the first. Still worth reading, though.

I enjoyed the first Dune but couldn't get through the second book in the series. I'll give it another try some day...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I'm of the opinion that LOTR is fine, but really shows its age. The reason I think Tolkien is so popular isn't that he is among the best, but among the first. Still worth reading, though.

My opinion is that the first LOTR book was among the best fantasy novels ever written. The series really got bogged down in the second book, but the third book managed to pick the tale back up and finish strong... apart from one particular section where Gandalf sits on a porch, smokes weed, and talks about philosophy for an absurd amount of pages.

Seriously hard to find a fantasy novel as good as the Fellowship of the Ring.

Pretty much every 3 book series I've read that's "epic" in style (as opposed to adventures where each adventure basically fits into one book); always has the middle book slow down.

In general slowdown has to happen because otherwise the story is being pushed too hard. A moment of pause, consolidation etc.. is often required. Some stories get away with avoiding this with tricks - for example Malazan book of the Fallen gets away with avoiding it by shifting continents and time spots so that whilst the first roster of characters is having their quite moment you're focusing on a totally separate roster in another land. First book to second whilst Whiskyjack and his Bridge Burners are recovering after their war; we jump to the open deserts and see the rising power that is massing there explode into life.

Of course, Lord of the Rings wasn't written as three books; it was intended, IIRC, as one novel with six major sections (The Fellowship of the Ring is books I and II, The Two Towers is books III and IV and The Return of the King is books V and VI plus appendices). Books III and IV in particular aren't really related, so that volume as a whole is a little off.

The Lord of the Rings was published as it was due to the publisher's financial concerns, nothing to do with Tolkien.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Of course, Lord of the Rings wasn't written as three books; it was intended, IIRC, as one novel with six major sections (The Fellowship of the Ring is books I and II, The Two Towers is books III and IV and The Return of the King is books V and VI plus appendices). Books III and IV in particular aren't really related, so that volume as a whole is a little off.

The Lord of the Rings was published as it was due to the publisher's financial concerns, nothing to do with Tolkien.

Yup, the stories of Frodo/Sam and the rest of the Fellowship have no connection in The Two Towers. Nothing that Aragorn and co. do has any direct impact on Frodo's journey during the events of The Two Towers. Obviously this is not the case in Fellowship and in Return of the King the orcs leaving Mordor to attack Minas Tirith and then to the battle at the Black Gate makes it possible for Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor to Mount Doom from Cirith Ungol.

 Nevelon wrote:
Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

Fully concur with this. The immediate Dune prequels were pretty solid (albeit mildly fetishistic) but once he dug into the Butlerian Jihad and the post-God Emperor material gak got bizzare and disgusting.

Slipspace wrote:

Well, yes. They're novelists. That's kind of like calling water wet. Plenty of writers are creative, but there's a reason Tolkien in particular is seen as so important, and it's mainly down to the depth of the world he created. That has many facets, including deep characters but there's also a lot of skill involved in creating a world that feels alive and real, rather than one that seems to have been brought into being purely to service the story.

Tolkien was a professor of Anglo Saxon and Literature. The lord of the Rings and the associated works are an English mythology and a backstory for his languages something to give them the sort of allusions and metaphors that English and other real languages have accumulated over the centuries.

One other thing that came to me yesterday; there's a post in the Warlord news thread about their new fantasy ruleset, "Warlords of Erehwon". Erewhon is a novel by Samuel Butler, which is a satire on Victorian society, about the discovery and exploration of a fictional country Erewhon. A large theme is the lack of machines, described as dangerous (the author also discussed the possibility of machines evolving intelligence - in 1863!). Samuel Butler is who Dune's Butlerian Jihad is named after. In 40k, the Imperium's proscription of artificial intelligence comes directly from Dune, but ultimately from a Victorian satire.

For the rest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, you'll want A Canticle for Liebowitz, Asimov's Foundation series (specifically the The mayors section), War of the Worlds (giant walking machines on Mars ) and a history of the role played by Christian monasteries in preserving learning in the medieval period.

Wait. I missed the part about the God Emperor of Mankind being a giant sand worm that vomits up Spice, communicates telepathically, and floats around on a anti-gravity bed?

 Tamwulf wrote:
Wait. I missed the part about the God Emperor of Mankind being a giant sand worm that vomits up Spice, communicates telepathically, and floats around on a anti-gravity bed?

I mean, if you want to get *really* metaphorical, Big E was a giant that lights the astronomicon, spills his secrets via his tarot and chills on his big honking throne. Ticks many of the same boxes (albeit with enough salt to line a couple of metric tonnes of margarita glasses).

Yeah, the OP might want to go off and find out what a "carbon copy" is.

Still, there are similarities - both sacrificed their humanity for the good of their empire, both are immobile and isolated from their people. I'm sure there's other things that went into the idea of the Emperor in 40k, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Yeah, the OP might want to go off and find out what a "carbon copy" is.

Still, there are similarities - both sacrificed their humanity for the good of their empire, both are immobile and isolated from their people. I'm sure there's other things that went into the idea of the Emperor in 40k, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

I conceded that. They are more mirror copies at best.

You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

'Someone said...' doesn't automatically make them correct.

'Carbon copies' suggests they are identical, which is not the case.
'Mirror copies' would suggest either that they are identical or exactly opposite, depending on context.. but again, neither is the case.

Dune is just one of a number of sources of inspiration for the 40K universe. It's a melange of stuff taken from all sorts of places ahem... the brains of the developers with absolutely no outside influence, your Honor...

 insaniak wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

'Someone said...' doesn't automatically make them correct.

'Carbon copies' suggests they are identical, which is not the case.
'Mirror copies' would suggest either that they are identical or exactly opposite, depending on context.. but again, neither is the case.

Dune is just one of a number of sources of inspiration for the 40K universe. It's a melange of stuff taken from all sorts of places ahem... the brains of the developers with absolutely no outside influence, your Honor...

The Emperor was heavily inspired by Leto Atreides II, is what I mean.

The major difference is that Leto II recruited his elite soldiers from women, not men.

Onething123456 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You realize that those idioms have identical meanings right?

Yes, but someone said I should have called them mirror copies instead of carbon copies.

But what do you think? Do you always just say what someone else tells you to? If you do, it can lead to situations like this where it seems you haven't fully thought through what you're saying because it's not actually your idea. In this case, a bit of thought would probably lead to the conclusion that the two universes are not carbon copies or mirror copies of one another at all. There's some inspiration there, yes, but I really don't think it's anywhere near the level you're implying. Perhaps in the very early days of 40k it might have been but the 40k background has progressed and changed since those days, leading to an Emperor and Imperium that is very different from its original inspiration.

Seems the OP has just read one of the things that influenced...sorry your honour - that happened to coincidentally share a few concepts with - 40K, and gone WOW....

Maybe they should stop posting and go and read more, far more....all the things mentioned in this thread and more besides...keep reading stuff, I suspect you might just get your mind blown....

Yes, it did take a big scoop of ice cream out of the Dune container. Maybe even two. But they took from plenty of other containers when making that sunday too. It's not that uncommon in game settings.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Of the stuff his son did, I thought the house books were OK, but a lot of the other stuff was mediocre at best, and bad at worst. YMMV.

Fully concur with this. The immediate Dune prequels were pretty solid (albeit mildly fetishistic) but once he dug into the Butlerian Jihad and the post-God Emperor material gak got bizzare and disgusting.

Eh. Except the Tleilaxu infiltrators in the kid's very first book were running around shouting slogans and religious maxims that immediately gave away their 'secret faith' that they held and kept to themselves until long after Leto II was dead and gone (it didn't actually get revealed until Heretics or Chapter-House). IIRC, he also randomly screwed up Jessica's family tree for no apparent reason. It was pretty poorly done from the start.

It wasn't the plot elements that put me off. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson just couldn't do a decent pastiche of Frank's writing style. They just felt like generic sci-fi "extruded book product".

I liked Penny Arcade's comment; "by the end, the 'notes of Frank Herbert' they were working from was an old Post-It note with 'write more Dune books' scribbled on it" The OOP and non-canon Dune Encyclopedia is much better, IMO.