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 OIIIIIIO wrote:
So..... does that mean that Duncan Idaho was the original and Saint Celestine is the copy?

There are some differences betwixt the universes. As far as I can recall cloning happens in 40k but certainly not very much. In Dune there is an entire group of people that specifically do cloning for various different reasons. The Tleilaxu are genetic manipulators and gene growers that would make Fabius Bile look like he was putting square pegs in round holes.

The Fremen, oddly enough, were originally non-combatants, and refused to fight. Generations later their society changed internally and after learning how to close quarter combat with the best of them, they were then taught the Weirding Way of fighting. They could literally alter reality around themselves and appear to teleport. Eldar Warp Spiders wish they were that good.

There are so many more things that I could go on about beings as I read much about 40k, all of the Dune series that both Frank and his kid wrote based off of Franks notes. I see more differences than I do similarities.


Not to disagree with you just to disagree, but if the rumors about the death korps of krieg are true there's actually a hell of a lot of cloning going on in the imperium, it's just kept very secret and done in a "mass production" basis...

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 Techpriestsupport wrote:
 OIIIIIIO wrote:
So..... does that mean that Duncan Idaho was the original and Saint Celestine is the copy?

There are some differences betwixt the universes. As far as I can recall cloning happens in 40k but certainly not very much. In Dune there is an entire group of people that specifically do cloning for various different reasons. The Tleilaxu are genetic manipulators and gene growers that would make Fabius Bile look like he was putting square pegs in round holes.

The Fremen, oddly enough, were originally non-combatants, and refused to fight. Generations later their society changed internally and after learning how to close quarter combat with the best of them, they were then taught the Weirding Way of fighting. They could literally alter reality around themselves and appear to teleport. Eldar Warp Spiders wish they were that good.

There are so many more things that I could go on about beings as I read much about 40k, all of the Dune series that both Frank and his kid wrote based off of Franks notes. I see more differences than I do similarities.


Not to disagree with you just to disagree, but if the rumors about the death korps of krieg are true there's actually a hell of a lot of cloning going on in the imperium, it's just kept very secret and done in a "mass production" basis...


They are actually test tube babies as far as I have read... although on such a massive scale so as to be right next to cloning for production output.

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Cloning absolutely does exist in 40k. As does genetic manipulation and other forms of procreation.

Houses Goliath and Escher are of particular note here.

However, it's not a universal process. Some planets may do on a regular basis. Others simply don't have the tech. Others yet may simply lack the inclination.

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Cloning is a massive part of the plot of Red & Black, an audio drama about Sisters of Battle visiting a world that lost contact with the Imperium. Cloning technology was at some point part of the STC package and this world still had it.



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Overread wrote:.


PS for all its flaws I still rank that early first Dune film as utterly fantastic at capturing the look and feel of the world of Dune. It captured the atmosphere of the setting in a way that has yet to be beaten. It's limits were mostly trying to push the story into too little time and limits on the visual technologies of the film and day (even then the nagivator scenes were fantastic). I still would love to see that same style and aesthetic on a much grander, larger scale



I've always liked the film in spite of its differences to the novel. The feel and art design had a significant impact on RT (evidenced by the artwork).
David Lynch should be hired to direct a 40k movie.
   
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 Overread wrote:
Hmm I've played too much Dune and not read the book in years, I was sure the wyrding modules featured in the book. Also even though the Nuclear weapons were used on a mountain range I think Paul still twisted fate a bit to get away with that, partly because he was the Chosen One and just wiped out the Emperor and his elite guard.

Esp since he also now controlled the planet and only source of Spice; thus the Nagivators could not refuse him. The Spice must Flow and Paul basically showed that he ruled the supply and could keep it flowing, if he so chose.

Edit
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Weirding_Module

Ah now I know why I'm confused. The Weirding Way training takes place, just with martial arts rather than machines.


PS for all its flaws I still rank that early first Dune film as utterly fantastic at capturing the look and feel of the world of Dune. It captured the atmosphere of the setting in a way that has yet to be beaten. It's limits were mostly trying to push the story into too little time and limits on the visual technologies of the film and day (even then the nagivator scenes were fantastic). I still would love to see that same style and aesthetic on a much grander, larger scale


In the book, the Sardaukar and Fremen were both the product of being raised in a harsh environment and only allowing the strongest to survive. The difference was that the Sardaukar had moved past that, so the current troops simply didn't live up to their reputation, but no-one except Paul and the Fremen had tried to test them (their planet, Salusa Secundus, had gone from being a deathworld penal colony to being the homeworld of House Corrino, after all - while still wild, it had been significantly controlled). I think it's a reflection of the Arab uprising against the Ottomans around the time of World War 1.

The same thing happened to the Fremen in God Emperor after they'd left Arrakis and got a taste for the luxuries of the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 09:26:52


 
   
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There is a lot of Dune tech in 40k. Suspensors for one, and lots of others.

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 Skinnereal wrote:
There is a lot of Dune tech in 40k. Suspensors for one, and lots of others.


Those were around in sci fi for decades before Dune. If you want to play this game, there's almost nothing in Dune that can't be traced to an earlier work in one form or another.

   
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It's all traceable back to the invention of fire darn it!!


Also Bob - you are no longer experiencing Technical Difficulties

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Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?


Yvraine as Morgana Le Fay confirmed.
   
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nobody tell OP about A Canticle for Liebowitz.

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"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Onething123456 wrote:
Leto Atreides II sacrificed his humanity to put the human race on the Golden Path, basically oppress humanity so much and make humanity evolve so that humanity will spread out and not be oppressed again. He sacrificed everything. His life, his legacy, everything. He knew humanity would hate him, but he thought it was worth it.


There are people in different mythologies/religions who did the same, was Leto a rip off of them?
This is a very frequent plot in religious and secular literature since mankind told stories.

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It wasn't oppression so much as Humanity's survival, attempting to create something that couldn't be controlled or tracked using the powers available to Leto (super-human computation and precognition). It was so Humanity would avoid Arafel, or extinction.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

No. Everything in 40K is created in a vacuum in the heads of the designers, with no outside influence of any kind.

They said so in court, so it must be true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 20:10:21


 
   
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The Emperor's goals are mostly the same as Leto Atreides II's goals (minus the Emperor being a human supremacist wanting humanity to rule over other species and rule the stars).

The AI in Dune are a lot like the Men of Iron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-uGQifqvgg

This video says it.
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?


Yvraine as Morgana Le Fay confirmed.

This
the_scotsman wrote:nobody tell OP about A Canticle for Liebowitz.

This
insaniak wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Next thread: Is 40K ripping off Arthurian Legend?

No. Everything in 40K is created in a vacuum in the heads of the designers, with no outside influence of any kind.

They said so in court, so it must be true.


and more this
   
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OP may wish to look into the goals of, well, every Emperor, ever.

GIven they're Emperors. Or Empresses. Of Empires. Aggressively expanded Empires covering as much of the world as they could get away with. Because that's what Empires are.

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Onething123456 wrote:
The Emperor is a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II, 40k Navigators are rip offs of Dune navigators, and so on. Am I missing anything else? What else?

You folks don't know what you are messing out on if any of you have not read Dune.

The Emperor is clearly a carbon copy of Leto Atreides II. If the title of the book below, "God Emperor of Dune" is not a give away, I don't know what is. Leto Atreides II sacrificed his humanity to put the human race on the Golden Path, basically oppress humanity so much and make humanity evolve so that humanity will spread out and not be oppressed again. He sacrificed everything. His life, his legacy, everything. He knew humanity would hate him, but he thought it was worth it.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Emperor-Dune-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441294677

https://www.amazon.com/God-Emperor-Dune-Chronicles-Book/dp/0441294677

No gak sherlock. You've just rediscovered a secret lost for 30 years

Trace it back far enough and it's all based on Homer and Bede with a sprinkling of Sturluson anyway

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 Dr Coconut wrote:

There is no original literature, just new ways of writing the same things


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces
   
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Has the OP set the record for most closed threads yet?
   
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It's been a while since we had a thread about the inspirations for 40k.

We've already had most of the genre/pop-culture references, but no-one's mentioned Commedia del'Arte, baroque and gothic art and literature (no mention yet of Gormenghast? for shame!) celtic art and culture), classical history (or at least, modern interpretations of the classical era), westerns, and I'm sure I've missed plenty more.
   
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Exactly. 40k is based on and influenced by every book ever written or to be written. As the whole setting is constantly developing through every BL book published, the influences and direct rip offs are increasing. Give it long enough and a "50 shades..." plot will appear

jorzolek wrote:Has the OP set the record for most closed threads yet?

Can't be bothered to count, probably smashed it though.
   
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Other people have said that none of this is new, as Tolkien ripped off the Norse and then everyone ripped off Tolkien with their Fantasy franchises and so on.

I already knew about Tolkien, but not most of the others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
OP may wish to look into the goals of, well, every Emperor, ever.

GIven they're Emperors. Or Empresses. Of Empires. Aggressively expanded Empires covering as much of the world as they could get away with. Because that's what Empires are.


Should I read 2000AD?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 03:42:36


 
   
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Calling Tolkien's work a 'rip off' of anyone is doing the man a disservice. While he was certainly inspired by Norse mythology, whatever you think of his writing, his books are an impressive example of world-building.

Similarly, while many fantasy authors have used his work as a jumping off point (some more blatantly than others -cough-Eddings-cough-Brooks-), you can't really just dismiss an entire genre as a 'rip off' of Tolkien. Authors are inspired by what they themselves have read, seen or experienced, and so it's inevitable that familiar threads will show up one way or another in their work.


Even 40K, for as much as it may have started out as the frankensteinian offspring of LotR, Dune, 2000AD and any number of other works of varying levels of obscurity, it's evolved over the years into something very much its own thing.

 
   
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Dune is a popular target for ripoffs in SF. The old RPG "spacemaster" was an in your face ripoff of dune. Trust me.

BTW spacemaster was a pretty decent dog actually, I kinda miss it.

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original (rogue trader) fiction inspiration that I can remember

Frank herbert's dune - lasguns, navigators, immortal emperor guiding humanity to a nebulous destiny, shields which stop guns but not blades (1st gen power fields), elite forces raised from impressed criminals and deathworlders

George Lucas' Star wars - 'bladeless' power swords, psychic powers referred to as 'the force', deathstars namechecked in the book, massively oppressive psychic emperor, "obiwan"

Robert Henlein's Starship Troopers - Drop pods & power armour

Timothy Zahn's The Blackcollar - chemically and medically enhanced supersoldiers (okay, not a concept unique to the book but it's a very successful classic sci-fi book published about the right time; note that original marines were faster and stronger but no tougher than baseline humanity)

Isaac Asimov's Foundation - Tech Priesthood

2000AD's Judge Dredd - Arbites and Hive Cities

JRR Tolkein's Lord of The Rings (Via Warhammer) - Eldar, Orcs, Ratlings & Squats

Lionel Johnson's "The Dark Angel" - seriously, you figure it out; it's not exactly hard.

Ridley Scott's Alien - Genestealers

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 06:24:01


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Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.
   
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Racerguy180 wrote:
Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.



Tolkien had a creative mind. So did Frank Herbert.

   
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Onething123456 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Most of how Tolkien presents the personal costs of the characters, is a direct result of his WWI service. He was able to make the characters relatable by giving them mixed & conflicting goals/beliefs. Boromir fought an internal battle on his place in the world/fellowship. Many, many parallels can be drawn to other writers that saw the horrors of war up close.

The "Heavy Metal" film could also be looked at as an inspiration for RT. 1984, Brazil, & DarkStar are visual queues that share more than a passing resemblance to the texture of 40k.



Tolkien had a creative mind. So did Frank Herbert.



Well, yes. They're novelists. That's kind of like calling water wet. Plenty of writers are creative, but there's a reason Tolkien in particular is seen as so important, and it's mainly down to the depth of the world he created. That has many facets, including deep characters but there's also a lot of skill involved in creating a world that feels alive and real, rather than one that seems to have been brought into being purely to service the story.
   
 
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