Hello and good evening to all,

Wanted to ask with the current leaks and reviews of the Primaris marine line getting points drops pretty much across the board along with stormraven decreases and other units. How do people think the Primaris units will perform going forward?, will more competitive lists start to appear?, will pure primaris lists also become more competitive/popular?.

After watching the tabletop tactics ca review, they had quite high praise and thoughts on primaris after the changes so thought I would see what the fellow Dakkanaughts think .

Cheers

I think, overall the message has been given - quite clearly, that the way forward is Primaris.

I don't run normal Space Marines but at a glance, almost all Primaris versions of characters are within a handful of points of the normal ones while showing slightly better stats. Basic Space Marines were tossed in a dumpster and covered in petrol in CA (at least the basic Tactical Marines). Primaris and indeed almost every other race getting cheaper/better, and they stayed static.

I think Primaris will absolutely have a heap of new models in the next six months (whenever the next wave shows up), and slooooowly but surely the points and efficiency of Primaris units will edge normal marine units out of the game. Fast forward 5-10 years, underwhelming units don't sell...kit sales drop...eventually they're justified to remove the kits from sale. (rules for the models, however will remain for a looong time)

A pure Primaris list is not currently super viable simply because Space Marines as a whole are still in a bit of trouble, but as their units become more fleshed out, it'll be "the" Space Marine army.

It's not just CA, vigilus shows thsi as well... pretty much everyone got pretty standard meh fluffy rules but Primaris got the ability to take two traits and some awesome command points:
1 CP to let the stalker ones target characters.

1 CP to let the normal ones become Rapid fire 2. So if you get within 15" that's 4 shots per model.

1 CP to let the assault versions auto-hit within 12"


And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?

Hey, at least the devs didn't lie when they said standard marines "arn't going anywhere". They just actually meant they literally were not going anywhere forwards or backwards.

Well to be fair basic Marines have 10,000 years worth of fighitng to play in, plus a entire second rules set and compnay dedicated to them, they haev a truely vast array of modern plastic units that probably outnumber all other factions when you include all the snowflake units.

Continuing both Primaris and normal mariens with new models would likly make it imposible to get anything but marines for the forseeable future.

Primaris are likely to be the stars of the new Season but all the previous Seasons are available and there are even dedicated s[in off shows Just for marines.

As long as Ravagers with Disintegrator cannons and Hemlocks with Heavy D-scythes exist Primaris Marines will always be sub par.

Shinzra wrote:


stormraven decreases

How has the stormraven decreased ? I may have missed it but it is 192 pts in the CA and 172 in the codex. No point changes except for the cyclon launchers and a mere 10 points for the lascannons

 Elbows wrote:
I think, overall the message has been given - quite clearly, that the way forward is Primaris.

I don't run normal Space Marines but at a glance, almost all Primaris versions of characters are within a handful of points of the normal ones while showing slightly better stats. Basic Space Marines were tossed in a dumpster and covered in petrol in CA (at least the basic Tactical Marines). Primaris and indeed almost every other race getting cheaper/better, and they stayed static.

I think Primaris will absolutely have a heap of new models in the next six months (whenever the next wave shows up), and slooooowly but surely the points and efficiency of Primaris units will edge normal marine units out of the game. Fast forward 5-10 years, underwhelming units don't sell...kit sales drop...eventually they're justified to remove the kits from sale. (rules for the models, however will remain for a looong time)

A pure Primaris list is not currently super viable simply because Space Marines as a whole are still in a bit of trouble, but as their units become more fleshed out, it'll be "the" Space Marine army.

Very much this. Watching AoS bears this out. Older factions are slowly wasting away as they get outpaced by new releases, having their keyword synergy reduced etc.

Also the Crimson Fists special detachment is good for primaris. It effectsr Primaris Characters, Intercessors, Reivers, and Hellblasters
Strats:
1CP: Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 when shooting, it inflicts 2 hits instead of 1.
1CP: End of enemy Shooting phase. Pick a unit of yours that was targeted by an attack. That unit can immediately shoot.

Warlord Trait: re-roll hit rolls of 1 9" aura. Significant since it can go on any primaris character.
Relic: Bolt pistol. Pistol 2, S5, AP -1, D2. Each time you hit, you can immediately make another hit roll. These extra attacks cannot generate more.

This is really brutal. Hellblasters will wreck stuff with these strats. And you can give an apoth or librarian a re-roll hits aura instead of just a captain.

 XT-1984 wrote:
As long as Ravagers with Disintegrator cannons and Hemlocks with Heavy D-scythes exist Primaris Marines will always be sub par.

Not every game is about aeldari vs imperium. There are several more factions in 40k.

Lootas are almost as bad for primaris. So are necron destroyers. So are HSBCs. Etc.

Well, moving forward, I am going to be attaching Mk III Chainswords to the backs of all of my Intercessor Sergeants that won't have Power Fists. Might as well get the free attack and the Mk III Chainswords are the only ones I can find that are sheathed.

I can't decide if I will just run one Battalion as a Liberator Strike Force, both Battalions as Liberator Strike Forces, or one Liberator Strike Force and one Indomitus Crusaders. I am definitely using the LSF with my 10-man Hellblaster Squad. Maybe using Field Commander to give the Warlord trait to something like a Primaris Apothecary to run behind them.

 lolman1c wrote:
It's not just CA, vigilus shows thsi as well... pretty much everyone got pretty standard meh fluffy rules but Primaris got the ability to take two traits and some awesome command points:
1 CP to let the stalker ones target characters.

1 CP to let the normal ones become Rapid fire 2. So if you get within 15" that's 4 shots per model.

1 CP to let the assault versions auto-hit within 12"

Nonsense. This formation is complete garbage, seeing you 'forgot' about 2 CP per unit minimum to even use it, stalker is bad, way too expensive, one shot only, and completely lacks bite, while auto bolter is just glorified normal bolter for way too many points. Yup, paying 3 CP (since you forgot that bit) to deal 6 more S4 AP- hits is sure great!

You also "forgot" that Sternguard with storm bolters, who are less expensive than primaris BTW, do 4 shots all the time, are cheaper, and don't cost 3 CP. Gee, standard SM are sure bad!

Literally the only OK primaris formation in Vigilus is the Crimson Fist one. Gee, that sure benefits all of two CF players on this board, and pushes primaris sales up...

And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?

You mean the two box sets that are full of units that CAN'T use the above formation? These ones? Especially IF box seeing IF formation is primaris-free?

Please put your tinfoil hat on.

Hey, at least the devs didn't lie when they said standard marines "arn't going anywhere". They just actually meant they literally were not going anywhere forwards or backwards.

Yup, and that's why veteran standard marines got massive point cuts in CA and avesome new formations in Vigilus.

"Anywhere"?

Meanwhile, primaris Reivers and Hellblasters got nothing, their bodies being now more expensive than Intercessors for no reason whatsoever. These two are actually really going nowhere...

Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.

Pandabeer wrote:
Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.

One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.

One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.

We will have it some day. It will be a next wave of Primaris, probably with a new Codex.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.

One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.

Keeping with the grav theme from the repulsor, I'd like to see a Landspeeder Storm lookalike that can carry 6 primaris (min squad and option for character)

Give it the option for a las talon or onslaught gatling canon and you have a "razorback" consistent with the primaris theme.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.

One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.

Keeping with the grav theme from the repulsor, I'd like to see a Landspeeder Storm lookalike that can carry 6 primaris (min squad and option for character)

Give it the option for a las talon or onslaught gatling canon and you have a "razorback" consistent with the primaris theme.

See, I don't want it to have the same weapons as the Repulsor. I wanted to have stuff like twin plasma incinerators or something like that. I would prefer it isn't just a small Repulsor.

Not to derail, but primaris (and all new models forward) are going to be easy to build, or at least like the Death Guard and Primaris kits, have their options limited, to screw with the 2nd hand bitz sellers and third party counts as.

You'll never get a Primaris with a meltagun. It will be some new weapon, moulded into an arm that only fits one particular marine torso.

I actually like the Primaris marines, but I dont think we will ever see any future releases that are like the multi part kits of old, with all the bitz and options to kitbash.

Newbie here, bought the Dark Imperium set and painted the Primaris Marines as Dark Angels, I won't be buying Azrael, or Sammael while I wait to see if they get the Marneus Calgar Primaris treatment, until then, I'll collect the Primaris units (Aggressors and Reivers) and will keep building my Death Guard Army

I love how by proxy, Chaos got punished by the Primaris bring-over. So far, unless you're running one of the four cults, cultists still outshine CSM by a small margin, even with the special weapons cost reduction.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Not to derail, but primaris (and all new models forward) are going to be easy to build, or at least like the Death Guard and Primaris kits, have their options limited, to screw with the 2nd hand bitz sellers and third party counts as.

You'll never get a Primaris with a meltagun. It will be some new weapon, moulded into an arm that only fits one particular marine torso.

I actually like the Primaris marines, but I dont think we will ever see any future releases that are like the multi part kits of old, with all the bitz and options to kitbash.

I kinda agree. Given that Intercessors and Hellblasters have 3 different weapon options each, but they are all modeled pretty much the same, but with slightly different weapon add-ons
You can get nothing but easy-build Intercessors have say they have Auto Bolt Rifles or Stalker Bolt rifles and no one would give them a second thought

But I do feel this have far more to do with ease of weapon selection than "screwing with bitz sellers". New players will find it much easier to just play the models without having to spend as much thought on their loadout

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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.

One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.

Keeping with the grav theme from the repulsor, I'd like to see a Landspeeder Storm lookalike that can carry 6 primaris (min squad and option for character)

Give it the option for a las talon or onslaught gatling canon and you have a "razorback" consistent with the primaris theme.

See, I don't want it to have the same weapons as the Repulsor. I wanted to have stuff like twin plasma incinerators or something like that. I would prefer it isn't just a small Repulsor.

Yeah I could see that as well as an option.

 Blackie wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:
As long as Ravagers with Disintegrator cannons and Hemlocks with Heavy D-scythes exist Primaris Marines will always be sub par.

Not every game is about aeldari vs imperium. There are several more factions in 40k.

When you’ll have to play that match up at any tournament then it will always matter

The only reason to take primaris is for Arguably their troop choices. But thats about it. Their aggressors, inceptors, and hellblasters are far too expensive and perform poorly in close combat.

With the points cost reduction to Terminators it is far better to take them and sternguard over inceptors or aggressors. (Sternguard also have anti tank options and can go up to a full squad of 10 for less points than aggressors)

Primaris are awful by themselves. Why people keep pushing "They are the best thing." I will never understand. Striking a balance between normal marines and primaris is the key.

I wouldn't say hellblasters are far too expensive, they're cheaper than dark reapers. Reapers have better weapons and ignore the heavy movement penalty but they have 3 toughness and a single wound so go down a lot easier. You can debate over the points cost of hellblasters sure, but they're not far off.

Reapers never kill themselves. And are far more effective vs invuln saves, which are everywhere. Hellbasters are bad vs the field.

Reapers don't need to kill themselves, they just wait for a stiff breeze to fall over.
I took a unit of ten in an alaitoc with the psykers to give them another -1 to hit and a 5 up feel no pain. Didn't make much difference against my ad mech, phosper equipped opponent. With reapers I expect them to last a round unless I can fire and fade away out of line of sight.

I think significant cost reductions are on the horizon for primaris.

With the drops for Devs with plasma cannons, vets with storm bolters + storm shields hellblasters are straight up out performed significantly for less by a squad of 5 devs w/ plasma cannons. Aggressors compete poorly per point vs vets with storm bolters and storm shields. Hell John Woo plasma pistol vanguard vets cost about as much per plasma shot as plasma inceptors trading t5 for cheap ablative wounds and an immunity to multi-damage weapons.

Without a deepstrike strat (DW) or cheap transports primaris are not competitive.

And lol @ whoever is comparing hellblasters to reapers. If you think they die fast with -2 to hit and a 5 up FnP you haven't seen ravagers/endless fury/reapers/destroyers/any in meta shooting feast on hellblasters. Put reapers in a wave serpent/webway and profit. Lets not even get into Yanarri shenanigans...

Hellblasters are a joke unless they get w/in 15" and there is no way to do that cheaply or reliably at the moment. Aggressors are mediocre unless they can stay still and shoot bad armor save units w/in 18". Outside of that they are outperformed per point by so many other units in a bad SM codex.

Reapers are more comparable to PlasmaCannon Devs than Aggressors.

Aggressors are more like Wraithguard with cannons or Fire Dragons.

Also, I love how Reapers always get two Pskic powers from different Pskyers (Conceal, Fortune), and a Stratagem (LQR), but Aggressors get no support in your comparison.

Lol what support ? Marine powers suck.

Basic Marines may not have gotten a point drop, but near everything they can take (and primaris can't) got a point drop. My Devs are 20 points lighter, my Tacs will be 18 points lighter. Standard Dreadnoughts are looking better, veterans of all types are pointing up cheaper. Normal Marines seem to be in a fine place.

Martel732 wrote:
Lol what support ? Marine powers suck.

Character auras, maybe? Guilliman/stacking Captain/LT auras for rerolls to hit and to wound isn't a thing that most Codexes can do.

mini marines are now going to be fielded as Vets, Sternguard or devs across the Marine line. This is how GW is salvaging the mini marine for further use. The basic troop choice will go to intecessors and Scouts. Its actually a pretty smart way of phasing out the line withought making the models useless.

How do you think reapers do against ravagers, destroyers etc? I'll give you a clue...they melt, even with buffs from psykers that cost 165pts plus. They can survive one round usually. Whether you put them in the webway or a serpent to protect them the moment they poke their heads out they get deleted. That's fine, they're glass cannons, no amount of buffs change that, you just increase the amount of effort it takes to get rid of them.

 zedsdead wrote:
mini marines are now going to be fielded as Vets, Sternguard or devs across the Marine line. This is how GW is salvaging the mini marine for further use. The basic troop choice will go to intecessors and Scouts. Its actually a pretty smart way of phasing out the line withought making the models useless.

Imo this "phasing out" still won't happen. Not when Chaos is fielding 1W 1A, slightly larger marines that just came out. Death Guard, TSons, the new Blackstone Fortress models. . . What's more likely, imo, is the standard Marine line gets a slight upscaled recut and re-sold. It's been their most successful line for decades. They'll keep it alongside their new Primaris add-ons. Primaris are the equivalent of a new chapter, like the Grey Knight release was, or the Custodes release was, except it's a line of models that any existing collector of Space Marines can add to their army. They even made adjustments to the codex in-lore, allowing companies to build beyond their normal hundred guys.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Lol what support ? Marine powers suck.

Character auras, maybe? Guilliman/stacking Captain/LT auras for rerolls to hit and to wound isn't a thing that most Codexes can do.

None of that helps on the opponent's turn.


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kingheff wrote:
How do you think reapers do against ravagers, destroyers etc? I'll give you a clue...they melt, even with buffs from psykers that cost 165pts plus. They can survive one round usually. Whether you put them in the webway or a serpent to protect them the moment they poke their heads out they get deleted. That's fine, they're glass cannons, no amount of buffs change that, you just increase the amount of effort it takes to get rid of them.

I seem to be all out of those. Its almost like xeno shooting is really good or something.

Mathhammer suggests, without any buffs, 10 reapers kill 7 hellblasters, 10 hellblasters kill 6.5 reapers with their non suicide single shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Add in a far seer and a warlock for the fnp and -1 to hit for 165 pts and you can add a second unit of hellblasters. How do you think ten buffed reapers do against 20 hellblasters?

kingheff wrote:
Reapers don't need to kill themselves, they just wait for a stiff breeze to fall over.
I took a unit of ten in an alaitoc with the psykers to give them another -1 to hit and a 5 up feel no pain. Didn't make much difference against my ad mech, phosper equipped opponent. With reapers I expect them to last a round unless I can fire and fade away out of line of sight.

They don't for a lot of reasons.

Wave serpant = safe turn 1.
Fire and fade = At least one 10 man can keep going if they don't have ignore LOS.
Then ofc 48" range means about 50% to 80% of your opponent army can't even reach them.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

kingheff wrote:
Mathhammer suggests, without any buffs, 10 reapers kill 7 hellblasters, 10 hellblasters kill 6.5 reapers with their non suicide single shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Add in a far seer and a warlock for the fnp and -1 to hit for 165 pts and you can add a second unit of hellblasters. How do you think ten buffed reapers do against 20 hellblasters?

Does the space marine player not have to take HQ's too though? Won't he be paying 400 for Guilliman? Plus 2/3 Librairans with not great powers that don't really help the hell blasters? Plus that would be just 5 more hell blasters...

Tell me. How do hell blasters do against units that they cant see because they are behind a wall? How do they do against a unit that out ranges them by 18 "?

kingheff wrote:
Add in a far seer and a warlock for the fnp and -1 to hit for 165 pts and you can add a second unit of hellblasters. How do you think ten buffed reapers do against 20 hellblasters?

How do I think they do? About even considering adding the Farseer and Warlock just added over 150pts to those Reapers, making it an over 500pt combo. That's 1/4 of a typical army list. They better darn-well take out at least one of those Hellblaster units per turn, otherwise their dead before they earn back their cost.

The only time Reapers are OP (for their cost without characters) if when they are Ynnari and get to shoot twice (but that still requires a character). Fix Ynnari, and Reapers and Spears are appropriately costed. All other bonuses they get require several characters and CPs from an army the rarely has more than 10CPs for the entire game

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Sorry, I've derailed the thread. I just wanted to point out that as units dark reapers are broadly comparable with hellblasters and they're comparatively pointed. The disparity comes from the army rules, especially the ynarri soul burst, but that's not the fault of hellblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, should be fifteen hellblasters not twenty.

A marine with missile launcher or plasma cannon is a joke compared to reaper with no buffs. Just ask mr. Ghostkeel.

Plasma Cannons are a great weapon for Marines.

And didn't it just get cheaper?

Reapers are a base better unit, with more versatility, in a better army with better buffs. Is this even up for argument?

10 shots, 6.6 hits, 5.5 wounds, 5.5 dead?
18 shots, 11.88 hits, 7.84 wounds, 5.17 dead (or 10 effing wounds) + exarch puts another 1.5 wounds so double the wound output but close to the same # of models dead (one more for the reapers)?

Am I taking crazy pills or is someone really saying hellblasters are just as good as dark reapers? They are not remotely comparable units. The +18" range, multiple firing modes, always hitting on a 3+, exarch and not blowing themselves up are huge before you take the imbalances in the armies tactics/strats/powers.

Now run them with chapter tactics, so either the reapers are yanarri and kill all the hellblasters or they are the -1 to hit guys ending up 10 shots, 5 hits, 4 dead. (who cares about hellblaster tactics as you always hit, I guess sallies up the dead by 8-11% or still 4 dead)

Now start throwing in some real game strats, multiple fire profiles (with 50% more damage than overheating), +18" range, fire and fade, -1 to hit power, -1 to hit strat, deepstrike strat, 5++ FNP, more likely to be in cover, actual transports they can ride in. Oh and the leader with 2 effing wounds.

The two units are in no way comparable. 3+ always hit. I can't even shoot you for 2 turns if you take advantage of you 18" range (redeploy strat for even more saltyness) and will never shoot you if you just kite me. I can't believe we are having this conversation seriously.

The poster who said plasma devs are the right comparison. With the price reduction they actually out-perform the reapers before buffs by a fair margin (which is why all the plasma cannon bits have disappeared from ebay...)

2x 5 man units at only 260 points puts out 16 shots, hits 11.28 wounds 9.48 kills close to 8 while taking the same casualties as the hellblasters, if they can get into 36" range without moving, if they have to move they kill the same as the hellblasters 6 but at a 100ish point savings.

Hellblasters suck compared to these guys. I'm just mad I spent the last month+ painting 20 hellblasters and now have to do it all over again with plasma devs.

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

According to everything I've seen, yeah. My current list saved 50 points on Plasma Cannons alone.

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

What he means is they are NOW good weapons for marines.

Reapers are the CWE equivlent of Plas Devs.

There isn't a really good CWE equivelent of Aggressors. The closest we have are probably Fire Dragons and Wraithguard. But you won't see a ton of them (because CWE has even better tools).

The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Because when I think "super mobile and focused on shooting on the move", I think overgrown super-man-apes in tin cans, not ninja space elves?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

What he means is they are NOW good weapons for marines.

They were good before, when you lined them up with the other choices available. They rate better than Lascannons vs. many vehicle targets, often giving the same numbers as the Grav Cannon. But they were 7pts. less than the Grav Cannon and had better range. They also didn't have the shortcoming of non-multiple damage vs non 3+ or better armor. They had good multi-role capability, too, unlike the Las. Now they're not just good, they're a no-brainer.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Just eat the penalty. Bring a banner and an Apothecary or two, if you like. And re-rolls, as always when playing marines. I don't lose nearly as many models to overcharging as one would think.

Also, don't overcharge if you don't need to. IG, Tau, and CWE infantry are only T3 W1, so non-overcharged is just as deadly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Or at the very least it should be an ability that Tactical Marines have, given that they have spent time as Devastators, so would have the skill.
Or even stand still and shoot twice like in HH. SOMETHING to make Tacs and Chaos Marine worth taking over Intercessor or Cultists, or even just going with cheap Guard battalions and ignoring Marine Troops entirely.

-

I think you're seeing fewer complaints about Dark Reapers because the game has shifted again back to hordes (particularly with the points drops in Chapter Approved, and Orks).

Dark Reapers at current are a "strong" unit, but they're nothing special when taken away from the obnoxious Ynnari bs. My six-man unit(s) which I rarely field cost 209 points. I don't field the Ynnari nonsense, or Dark Eldar silliness. If I want to buff them I'm using up a 100+ point Farseer, or a 50+ point Warlock or Spiritseer, etc.

This means at the end of the day I have a very expensive Toughness 3 unit with Space Marine armour. They're still a very strong unit, but I'd argue they represent what Dark Reapers should. Of course as a normal Craftworld player we get penalized because of the Soup garbage that is so commonly abused.

 Elbows wrote:
I think you're seeing fewer complaints about Dark Reapers because the game has shifted again back to hordes (particularly with the points drops in Chapter Approved, and Orks).

Dark Reapers at current are a "strong" unit, but they're nothing special when taken away from the obnoxious Ynnari bs. My six-man unit(s) which I rarely field cost 209 points. I don't field the Ynnari nonsense, or Dark Eldar silliness. If I want to buff them I'm using up a 100+ point Farseer, or a 50+ point Warlock or Spiritseer, etc.

This means at the end of the day I have a very expensive Toughness 3 unit with Space Marine armour. They're still a very strong unit, but I'd argue they represent what Dark Reapers should. Of course as a normal Craftworld player we get penalized because of the Soup garbage that is so commonly abused.

Why do you say that this CA favors hordes? They weren't made cheaper. Actually one of the most common horde list (cultists) was nerfed.

Eldar units should be priced like they are all Yanarri the same way marine units are priced like they are all within gullimans re-roll bubble.

Or take Gman and that weird death cult out back and shoot them (my preferred solution)

Either way hellblasters can't compete with the new and improved plasma cannon devs and aggressors are second fiddle to storm bolter troops as long as high ap, multi-shot, multi damage weapons are a thing (and there are far too many of them to put that cat back in the bag). So my guess is primaris will get a points cut to bring them in line with the new marine base-line (so sub 30 point hellblasters and aggressors).

Probably after the Christmas bundles are done selling so jee-dubs can get that sweet full retail on the new primaris meta. So spring FAQ?

Also, as much as I have criticized Insect's mostly marine body list that thing has made out like a bandit with all of the marine weapon reductions. Running tons of vets, sternguard and devs with the cheaper weapon options seems a really viable way to run marines all of a sudden. Primaris, not so much.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

What he means is they are NOW good weapons for marines.

They were good before, when you lined them up with the other choices available. They rate better than Lascannons vs. many vehicle targets, often giving the same numbers as the Grav Cannon. But they were 7pts. less than the Grav Cannon and had better range. They also didn't have the shortcoming of non-multiple damage vs non 3+ or better armor. They had good multi-role capability, too, unlike the Las. Now they're not just good, they're a no-brainer.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Just eat the penalty. Bring a banner and an Apothecary or two, if you like. And re-rolls, as always when playing marines. I don't lose nearly as many models to overcharging as one would think.

I lose plenty to overcharge. I really am expecting in the FAQ that all overheat mechanics get a rewrite.

Only cause 1 mortal wound on a natural (unmodified roll of a 1) Really though. The main reason reapers are so good is there can pop out of a transport - still hit at 100% efficientcy - plus they ignore all negatives to hit. They hard counter A LOT of units. They can also be made to be indestructable without ignore LOS weapons or something really fast that can flank them. Personally I don't have a problem with them right now - I think they pay the right points for what you get but maybe their squad size is too high. Space marine devs should be equally as feared as reapers but they really aren't. Turn 1 they are easy to knock out or they have to eat a penalty to hit. Turn 2 they are probably dead.

Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

It's the ignore-penalties-to-hit that keeps Reapers from just being substandard Devs. Aside from that, Devs do the pop-out-of-vehicle schtick much better - as their vehicles are much cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(that, and like most Plasma, the Reaper high-ROF gun is D2 when it should be D1 - but the same can be said about overcharge Plas).

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

I'm considering 3 ven dreads with Twinlas and rockets. Cheap - 2+ to hit so still reasonable against neg buffers. Plus with Ultramarines I can fall back and shoot with them. Did the stalker go down? I didn't see.

Wut? Serpents are god-mode. Rhinos are ... adequate.

Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream. I'd like to get 2 damage without killing myself. My expensive models that are supposed live? Yeah, those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

I'm considering 3 ven dreads with Twinlas and rockets. Cheap - 2+ to hit so still reasonable against neg buffers. Plus with Ultramarines I can fall back and shoot with them. Did the stalker go down? I didn't see.

The icarus array did. BA dont' get ven dreads, so I use whatever leftover junk I can get. But stalkers are cheap T8 and Xenos seem to hate them.

"Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream."

I'm sorry that instead of 2 shot S5 AP-2 D2 profiles, Marines are stuck with only D3 shot S8 AP-2 D2 profiles. Oh woe is Marines.

Bharring wrote:
It's the ignore-penalties-to-hit that keeps Reapers from just being substandard Devs. Aside from that, Devs do the pop-out-of-vehicle schtick much better - as their vehicles are much cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(that, and like most Plasma, the Reaper high-ROF gun is D2 when it should be D1 - but the same can be said about overcharge Plas).

Dude get out of here - wave serpants are phenomenal. Aint no one taking a rhino - it's gonna be a razorback - WS even has double the transport capacity and many twin star cannon is now super cheap - we might even start seeing them. They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode. They are super good.

 Freeflow44 wrote:
Newbie here, bought the Dark Imperium set and painted the Primaris Marines as Dark Angels, I won't be buying Azrael, or Sammael while I wait to see if they get the Marneus Calgar Primaris treatment, until then, I'll collect the Primaris units (Aggressors and Reivers) and will keep building my Death Guard Army

For what it's worth, it isn't hard to make stand-ins for either model.

bananathug wrote:
Eldar units should be priced like they are all Yanarri the same way marine units are priced like they are all within gullimans re-roll bubble.

Or take Gman and that weird death cult out back and shoot them (my preferred solution)

Either way hellblasters can't compete with the new and improved plasma cannon devs and aggressors are second fiddle to storm bolter troops as long as high ap, multi-shot, multi damage weapons are a thing (and there are far too many of them to put that cat back in the bag). So my guess is primaris will get a points cut to bring them in line with the new marine base-line (so sub 30 point hellblasters and aggressors).

Probably after the Christmas bundles are done selling so jee-dubs can get that sweet full retail on the new primaris meta. So spring FAQ?

Also, as much as I have criticized Insect's mostly marine body list that thing has made out like a bandit with all of the marine weapon reductions. Running tons of vets, sternguard and devs with the cheaper weapon options seems a really viable way to run marines all of a sudden. Primaris, not so much.

Marines are not priced like they are in a Gman bubble man, be real. In this same thread you find examples of marine models being compared directly to top tier models and without buffs they are easily in the same league.
Marine costs are fine for the most part.

Bharring wrote:
"Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream."

I'm sorry that instead of 2 shot S5 AP-2 D2 profiles, Marines are stuck with only D3 shot S8 AP-2 D2 profiles. Oh woe is Marines.

12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?

Bharring wrote:
"Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream."

I'm sorry that instead of 2 shot S5 AP-2 D2 profiles, Marines are stuck with only D3 shot S8 AP-2 D2 profiles. Oh woe is Marines.

Very strong - it's actually ap -3 . But - it kills yourself. Currently with on demand -1 to hits....it is very problematic.

Dude, where did I say Serpents weren't better than Rhinos?

I said Devs can pop out of vehicles better because their vehicles are much *cheaper*. Not that it's a better idea. Or that their vehicles were better.

As for "They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode", no wonder you hate knife-ears so much: you're playing against rules they don't have!

Now, Serpents are super good, but not because Reapers pop out of them and blow stuff up.

Being immortal is pretty damn good, yes.

Plasma only functions atm vs armies with no penalty to hit. Get in a duel Carnifexes? Screwed. Drukhari? Screwed. Alatitoc? Screwed. Stygians? Screwed. Alpha legion? Screwed.

"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

Bharring wrote:
Dude, where did I say Serpents weren't better than Rhinos?

I said Devs can pop out of vehicles better because their vehicles are much *cheaper*. Not that it's a better idea. Or that their vehicles were better.

As for "They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode", no wonder you hate knife-ears so much: you're playing against rules they don't have!

Now, Serpents are super good, but not because Reapers pop out of them and blow stuff up.

Dude...

Starshot does flat 3 damage. What are ye saying?


Razors and wave serpants have almost equal point costs...WS has double the transport capacity. It's also about twice as survivable.

Bharring wrote:
"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

No, it isn't. S7 D1 sucks for a heavy weapon. Get real.

Bharring wrote:
"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

how? Against 2 wound modles the str 5 vesion is about 4 times as effective against 2 wound models t 4 models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'm no pointy ear hater...I play both DE and CWE. Admitably - space marines are a favorite army of mine but I aint no elf hater.

"Starshot does flat 3 damage. What are ye saying? "
That Wave Serpents don't have Starshot - at least not the version Reapers have. They can take Missile Launchers - like IoM. And they're even better, being d6 damage - like IoM. They're overcosted, of course - like IoM.

Reapers have Starshot. Heavy 1 S8 D3. So it's like being Heavy d3 S8 D2 in that each shot will blick a 2-W model. Also like Heavy d3 S8 D2 in that it takes the same number of rounds of shooting to kill a 3-W model. It's unlike it in that *it's got half the shots*, so is worse vs anything with 1W, 2W, or 4+W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Against 2 wound modles the str 5 vesion is about 4"
Umwhat?
You're wounding on same or better. You have just as many shots. It may take twice as many to kill a 2W model, but it takes the same or fewer shots to kill a 1W model. So, at best, 2x as efficient. Although, often, less.

Admittedly, I'd prefer the Reaper launcher to have the following profiles:
Heavy 1 S8 AP-2 D:d3 and
Heavy D3 S5 AP-2 D:1
But then cost less than 20ppm (plus the 12 of the Reaper)

Flat D:3 is a pretty big deal, as is D:2 on the multi-shot option. It really should be d3 Damage on the S8 version and only 1 damage on the S5 version (but have more shots)
I'd prefer them to be worse for damage, but them also cheaper.
It can easily be Errata'd to reflect this in the exact same way that Star cannons were originally 30ppm with flat D:3, but then Errata'd down to D:d3 for 15ppm. Now they are 13ppm.

The problem with Reapers is the lower risk/higher reliability. But they are absolutely comparable (now) to Devs with Plasma cannons in terms of cost to durability/damage BEFORE buffs

-

I agree I'd like to see it toned down. I just don't agree that Serpents have D3 Starshot or half the other crazy that gets said.

Bharring wrote:
I agree I'd like to see it toned down. I just don't agree that Serpents have D3 Starshot or half the other crazy that gets said.

I was talking about reapers and WS in the same sentence. Thought you'd pick up on that. It's clear serpants don't have primaris killer mode and crisis killer mode.

Well, it was hard to pick up on that from "WS even has double the transport capacity. They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode". But the updated post makes it clear.

I'm still having a hard time seeing how H1 S8 D3 is so amazing compared to H:d3 S8 D2. It's equally powerful for 3W and 5W targets, but much, much worse vs anything else.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

No, it isn't. S7 D1 sucks for a heavy weapon. Get real.

It's the same result vs a T6 model. Better result against t3 1w models (Eldar). And you got the overcharge and better AP.

Bharring wrote:
Because when I think "super mobile and focused on shooting on the move", I think overgrown super-man-apes in tin cans, not ninja space elves?

Big people are generally better at carrying big bulky objects then little people are, yeah. Did you intend to make fun of yourself with that statement?

Bharring wrote:
I'm still having a hard time seeing how H1 S8 D3 is so amazing compared to H:d3 S8 D2. It's equally powerful for 3W and 5W targets, but much, much worse vs anything else.

Not to mention Reapers are 34ppm for AP-2, while Devs with Plasma Cannon are now 29ppm (I think that's right) for AP -3.
Reapers are still better because of the buffs they get, but it's no longer the great divide it used to be.

-

Jes Goodwin in the latest podcast outright says primaris marines are a redesign of the marines. I don't know if that was a slip of the tongue or not. XD

interesting how he says he started work 4-5 years in advance. This has been a long time comming.

Well, I do look like a large man-ape. But not super. Not even terribly fit.

I honestly think that the main requirements for primaris is to almost split apart the repulsor. Get a 100ish point ten man transport with a couple of bolt rifles and something similar to the repulsor without the transport option.
Primaris units are decent to good but are not the most mobile. A cheap transport, mostly, solves that problem.

Or let Primaris ride in Rhinos and Razors and Pods. And give them 1 special/heavy per 5. And some seargent options. And heavy weapons intercessors. And rocket-backpack intercessors. And...

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Because when I think "super mobile and focused on shooting on the move", I think overgrown super-man-apes in tin cans, not ninja space elves?

Big people are generally better at carrying big bulky objects then little people are, yeah. Did you intend to make fun of yourself with that statement?

That's easy, Eldar gear is much lighter than Imperial gear, and the Reaper Launcher shoots homing missiles.

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

I hadn't really considered running any of my Stalkers. But yeah, even if they aren't shooting a Fly target, they still pump out a enough shots to be useful.

Blood Angels getting access to Stalkers and Hunters is a real boon.

Capt smash is the sheriff of the deredeo/stalker line. And then if he had to smash deredeo takes over. I've already got a list with double stalker.

Durkhari only have venoms, mandrakes and flyers with -1 to hit. Tipycally a third of the army invested in units with -1 to hit. Ravagers, raiders, all the coven stuff don't have -1 to hit and are perfect targets for plasmas, especially raiders and ravagers. Sure they have invulns but also T less than 8.

They are also very sensible to Heavy bolters, assault cannons and autocannons. Of course bringing 25 lascannons and 25 plasmas will be a bad match up against drukhari, but maybe some players just need to adapt. Since it's ok to tailor a list in order to 1-shot a knight it should be equally ok to tailor a list in order to counter aeldari, or am I missing somethig?

They can get -1 to hit on demand though.

It costs 2 CPs, works on a single unit, and only affects some type of units. Usually worths it only for a large unit of jetbikes or hellions, which are units you won't see in competitive gaming.

The -1 to hit to a ravager it's completely wasted since the other two would be unbuffed and the opponent can easily ignore the single vehicle with a -1 to hit targeting the remaining two. It can be powerful enough if the opponent has a single main source of anti tank or against plasma. If you have the red grief outrider with 3x3 bikes, which is a competitive choice, you're investing 2 CPs on 3 bikes while the other 2 stay unbuffed.

It would be OP if worked on all kind of units, aka coven stuff. I never use that stratagem unless it's a fun game with my wych cult themed list or it's late game and I still have several CPs.

Also SW and orks can get the -1 to hit by stratagem. The SW one costs 3CPs but affects everything under the rune priest's 6'' aura. Rune priests can also give the -1 to hit to a single unit by casting a psychic power.

Intercessors I can make a case for, and even then only really with bolt rifles. I built a squad with autos and regret it. Everything else is too squishy or too ineffective. Hellblasters and aggressors lose efficacy too fast because they don’t have ablative wounds or 2+ saves like their mini marine counterparts. Reivers are just plain trash. Inceptors can be imitated with squads of ASM with plasma so, again, no ablative wounds.

Hopefully a second wave of Primaris gives us stuff that isn’t trash. A transport at the very least, not a float raider that got soaked in plastic glue and dropped in the bitz box.

It's powerful is you can get a bunch of marine plasma to kill themselves on 2s. It's not wasted if they already declared a bunch of hellblasters.

Bremon wrote:
Intercessors I can make a case for, and even then only really with bolt rifles. I built a squad with autos and regret it.

The state of the auto bolt rifles is just bizarre. At leas GW made stalker free; they're still not good, but at leas you're not paying more for a worse weapon. Autos still cost a point though. The rapid fire bolt rifle is already better, yet cheaper. Then they give the obviously better stratagem to the rapid fire rifle. Not only that, the assault version's stratagem goes against it's only niche, i.e. staying outside the rapid fire and charge range of the enemy whilst still being able to doubletap. Still, I just built a squad with assault bolters; you can use each stratagem only once per turn, so I might want to use them both, even though one of them is vastly better. Besides, they're the best looking variant (which makes it even more infuriating that they're so bad.)

Reivers are just plain trash.

Another utterly bizarre thing. They could have easily given the Reivers an access to the veteran stratagem and the sergeant weapon upgrades (the same upgrade bits fit them just fine); it would have benefited them much more than the Intercessors.

"It's powerful is you can get a bunch of marine plasma to kill themselves on 2s. It's not wasted if they already declared a bunch of hellblasters."
Well, you can lead a Plasma to a -1-to-hit target to shoot at, but you can't make him overcharge when it's dumb to do so.

I though the Drukhari start can be popped after the fact. I mean, you can spend the whole game not overloading and lose, because you've only got about 2 turns to cripple the Drukhari before you are out of marines.

Bharring wrote:
"It's powerful is you can get a bunch of marine plasma to kill themselves on 2s. It's not wasted if they already declared a bunch of hellblasters."
Well, you can lead a Plasma to a -1-to-hit target to shoot at, but you can't make him overcharge when it's dumb to do so.

That's the key, actually.

I don't play DE, so I don't know the exact wording, but if it's "use this strategem when one of your units is targeted", then you wait until the attack is declared and pop it then, once they've committed to overcharging.

Or, more relevantly, it's existence prevents the unit from overcharging at all. You don't even have to use the stratagem, it presents a threat by it's existance that says "if you overcharge your guns, your gunners will die".

Depends on targets and army composition. Make sure you have two valid targets. Lead off with your AT that doesn't Gets Hot (Lascannons, Autocannons, or whatever). If they don't pop LQR, you don't suffer -1-to-hit on those weapons. If they do, fire your Plas weapons at other targets.

If you do have to declare a Plas Dev squad next, don't fire all the Plas Canons at the same target.

Tau Plasma is still S6 D1, no overcharge. CWE Plasma is S6 Dd3, no overcharge. Compared to those profiles, S7 D1 isn't terrible, if you have to use it.

For the cost it is. And again, you are under a hard timer before dissy cannons kill everything.

(I do agree that the --to-hit stuff is overboard. I also agree that Gets Hot should only be natural 1s. I just think Plas is still good even with those drawbacks.)

Bharring wrote:
Depends on targets and army composition. Make sure you have two valid targets. Lead off with your AT that doesn't Gets Hot (Lascannons, Autocannons, or whatever). If they don't pop LQR, you don't suffer -1-to-hit on those weapons. If they do, fire your Plas weapons at other targets.

If you do have to declare a Plas Dev squad next, don't fire all the Plas Canons at the same target.

Tau Plasma is still S6 D1, no overcharge. CWE Plasma is S6 Dd3, no overcharge. Compared to those profiles, S7 D1 isn't terrible, if you have to use it.

Tau Ion Guns are their "Plasma".

Plas is merely adequate. Melta, flamers, and grav actively suck. Gravis armor should have given an extra wound. Problem solved. Too many invulns for plas to be "too good".

I agree that Melta, Flamer, and Grav all suck. I agree that there are too many invulns. I'd go further and say AP is handed out too generously, and it cheapens the value of weapons that have good AP.

More wholeheartedly, though, I'd say the platforms people are looking at this through - the SM Tac, primarily - are bad.

Imagine of Storm Guardians could take Plasma Guns. Or of Guardian Defenders could take Plasma Cannons. Or Kabs or Fire Warrior squads. I imagine those units would *destroy*.

Tacs are on the way out. They are in the process of being soft squatted as we speak.

Scions with plasma are still obnoxious, and now we have 5 pt IG vets.

At the end of the day, a marine with plasma is still 24 pts, and it's just a mathematical blurp that primaris are super weak to 2 damage weapons. Plasma is far from the primary culprit. I've lost more primaris to lootas in the last 2 months than plasma. People have quit using plasma b/c of Alaitoc and Drukhari. Needing 12" range to get second shot sucks unless you are a scion. Then you don't care.

To the OP's topic.

For me to want to go further with my Ultramarine Primaris, I need some ability to take some Characters to gain some options.

I really think the Primaris Charecters should get all the ability to field all the Primaris weaponry options.

Captain with a Flamstorm Guantlet? Sure.
Libriarian with a Plasma Incinerator? Sure.
LT with Incpetor armor and jump pack and dual Assault Bolters? GTG.

They may eventually fit in a Land Raider!

Martel732 wrote:
Tacs are on the way out. They are in the process of being soft squatted as we speak.

Scions with plasma are still obnoxious, and now we have 5 pt IG vets.

At the end of the day, a marine with plasma is still 24 pts, and it's just a mathematical blurp that primaris are super weak to 2 damage weapons. Plasma is far from the primary culprit. I've lost more primaris to lootas in the last 2 months than plasma. People have quit using plasma b/c of Alaitoc and Drukhari. Needing 12" range to get second shot sucks unless you are a scion. Then you don't care.

It's worth remembering that while Vets went down, every gun they can take went up on them. IG Vets pay 14 for a Plasma Gun now iirc.

I agree about the Tacs, but I don't think that it's just 16 ppm Intercessors imposing on their niche. I think it's the combination of 14 ppm Company Veterans with 2 point Storm Shields (welcome back 4th edition power armor) and 13 ppm Sniper Rifle scouts that are really going to be what puts regular Tacs out to pasture.

 Crimson wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Intercessors I can make a case for, and even then only really with bolt rifles. I built a squad with autos and regret it.

The state of the auto bolt rifles is just bizarre. At leas GW made stalker free; they're still not good, but at leas you're not paying more for a worse weapon. Autos still cost a point though. The rapid fire bolt rifle is already better, yet cheaper. Then they give the obviously better stratagem to the rapid fire rifle. Not only that, the assault version's stratagem goes against it's only niche, i.e. staying outside the rapid fire and charge range of the enemy whilst still being able to doubletap. Still, I just built a squad with assault bolters; you can use each stratagem only once per turn, so I might want to use them both, even though one of them is vastly better. Besides, they're the best looking variant (which makes it even more infuriating that they're so bad.)

Reivers are just plain trash.

Another utterly bizarre thing. They could have easily given the Reivers an access to the veteran stratagem and the sergeant weapon upgrades (the same upgrade bits fit them just fine); it would have benefited them much more than the Intercessors.

Agreed, paying a point for a worse gun is just stupid. At least Sanguinary Guard are forced into a gun worse than a stormbolter; why should anyone take auto bolt rifles? They look cool but are gak. The bolt rifle strat just ensured that eBay stays busy selling Dark Imperium minis.

I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

Then here’s hoping Spring FAQ smashes RG’s tactic with a sledgehammer so the rest of us don’t have to subsidize their glory.

As the guy playing them I'm hoping all the other chapter traits get better instead. And for the record, the Autobolter still doesn't really look like a good purchase even with the RG trait.

The Newman wrote:
As the guy playing them I'm hoping all the other chapter traits get better instead. And for the record, the Autobolter still doesn't really look like a good purchase even with the RG trait.

Lol, fair enough. Here’s hoping they fix what I love instead of just breaking what you love to let you wallow with us in misery. And either way make autos 0 points. As it is Stalkers still need something to make them usable compared to sniper scouts beyond a stratagem, and auto could stand to be bumped to 3 shots to make up for the lack of AP.

The Newman wrote:
I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

They can still be at 15" with a regular Bolt Rifle, shooting the same number of shots with the AP -1. Or they could drop the Rapid Fire Stratagem and shoot double the shots. The Auto Bolt Rifle is pretty pointless.

The Newman wrote:
I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

It also doesn't suck with Deathwatch, but ya know, ammo.

The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

They can still be at 15" with a regular Bolt Rifle, shooting the same number of shots with the AP -1. Or they could drop the Rapid Fire Stratagem and shoot double the shots. The Auto Bolt Rifle is pretty pointless.

If I'm at 15" it's trivial for you to walk to within 12" and negate my -1 to be hit. If I'm at 23.99", not so much.

Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

For the same reason that Deathwatch armies arent going to be 1500 points of SS/SB vets walking up the board like it's the 18th century: you can only deliver three pods via deepstrike, mortal wounds are gonna shred them, and board control actually matters.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

You can advance and shoot it with ap -1 at 24" range though. It's a more agressive build that wants to try to get close...to charge weak chaff or something. Use those 2 attacks. Or stay at range from something scary (lets be honest if it's not fast it's not scary). It is absolutely useless for vanilla space marines. As are most space marines in comparison to DW. Who basically double to tripple their damage for +2 points.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

For the same reason that Deathwatch armies arent going to be 1500 points of SS/SB vets walking up the board like it's the 18th century: you can only deliver three pods via deepstrike, mortal wounds are gonna shred them, and board control actually matters.

If your objective with the assault bolters is board control then veterans do it better with the ability to deepstrike anywhere (or take transports if that is to your fancy) and lay out far more damage. Especially as far as allies go the vets greatly outclass the assault bolter boys. Assault bolter intercessors are only moving an additional 1d6 inches so lets not pretend that is amazing mobility. A guardsmen ordered to move move move runs literal laps around them as do bikers. You do have a very good point about mortal wounds though. That is THE hard counter to them.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

You can advance and shoot it with ap -1 at 24" range though. It's a more agressive build that wants to try to get close...to charge weak chaff or something. Use those 2 attacks. Or stay at range from something scary (lets be honest if it's not fast it's not scary). It is absolutely useless for vanilla space marines. As are most space marines in comparison to DW. Who basically double to tripple their damage for +2 points.

If you want to get close why not just deepstrike? Their melee output is identical to veterans with shields and their offensive output is worse than veterans with storm bolters (especially DW ones). If you are running vanilla intercessors with auto bolt rifles yes you do get the 1d6 extra advance to get close (something you really don't even want to do) and suffer a -1 to hit. 10 whole intercessors put out 20 s4 shots for 10 s4 hits. That's just not scary. DW auto bolt rifles have a much better time with SIA, but even then I'd be tempted to just take my SS/SB vets to sit back and do the same with a 3++ invuln.

For the THIRD time now: Deathwatch can only deliver three units via deep strike. Stop acting like you can just magically point at the board and have 100 stormbolter Vets just appear.

Sterling191 wrote:
For the THIRD time now: Deathwatch can only deliver three units via deep strike. Stop acting like you can just magically point at the board and have 100 stormbolter Vets just appear.

Perhaps I have not elucidated my thoughts as clearly as I would wish, but deep striking 100 vets was never something I thought of. The reason I am ragging on primaris auto bolt rifles as being bad is because there is a blatantly better option available. Once you have your two or three veterans squads DSing in (could be four if you use beacon angelis) they cover the job that auto bolt rifle intercessors would do. Or if you want you can just walk them around the board like you would do with the auto bolter bros and move 1d6 inches less, but put out superior firepower and have a 3++ invuln. Auto bolt rifle intercessors just don't have a niche to fill that something else does not do better. They are passable in DW if you don't want to use veterans, but for normal marines they just don't perform at all.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

For the same reason that Deathwatch armies arent going to be 1500 points of SS/SB vets walking up the board like it's the 18th century: you can only deliver three pods via deepstrike, mortal wounds are gonna shred them, and board control actually matters.

If your objective with the assault bolters is board control then veterans do it better with the ability to deepstrike anywhere (or take transports if that is to your fancy) and lay out far more damage. Especially as far as allies go the vets greatly outclass the assault bolter boys. Assault bolter intercessors are only moving an additional 1d6 inches so lets not pretend that is amazing mobility. A guardsmen ordered to move move move runs literal laps around them as do bikers. You do have a very good point about mortal wounds though. That is THE hard counter to them.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

You can advance and shoot it with ap -1 at 24" range though. It's a more agressive build that wants to try to get close...to charge weak chaff or something. Use those 2 attacks. Or stay at range from something scary (lets be honest if it's not fast it's not scary). It is absolutely useless for vanilla space marines. As are most space marines in comparison to DW. Who basically double to tripple their damage for +2 points.

If you want to get close why not just deepstrike? Their melee output is identical to veterans with shields and their offensive output is worse than veterans with storm bolters (especially DW ones). If you are running vanilla intercessors with auto bolt rifles yes you do get the 1d6 extra advance to get close (something you really don't even want to do) and suffer a -1 to hit. 10 whole intercessors put out 20 s4 shots for 10 s4 hits. That's just not scary. DW auto bolt rifles have a much better time with SIA, but even then I'd be tempted to just take my SS/SB vets to sit back and do the same with a 3++ invuln.

You ignore the advance penalty with an aggressor correct?
Turn 1 you will be shooting with autobolter intercessors against practically anything you want with a 6"+d6 move and 24" range. Plus youll still be ap-1 or wounding on 2's...whichever is best. I wouldn't run all of them this way. Bolt rifle is still probably better most of the time cause you are 30" range and can use 2+ to wound and already have ap -1.

However with 2 point storm shields...why would you take anything else? 2 points for a 3++. Man this game is wacky.

The aggressor being in the squad is an advantage DW have thus why I said there version is superior (on top of the SIA). Aggressors can be very good in those kill teams and they have served me very well. Just three of them mixed in three different squads (3 total) made a HUGE impact in my last game against orks. Absolute UNITS.

There's a couple things I'd like to see,

Bikes
Proper melee unit
"hellblasters" with onslaught gattling cannons
And a second transport either drop pod or razorback(assuming the repulsor is the rhino varient and not the LR variant)

 fraser1191 wrote:
There's a couple things I'd like to see,

Bikes
Proper melee unit
"hellblasters" with onslaught gattling cannons
And a second transport either drop pod or razorback(assuming the repulsor is the rhino varient and not the LR variant)

I think a Razorback variant with either a Las Talon or a pair of Twin Plasma Incinerators would be cool. It doesn't need to be a gunboat and it shouldn't just be a Repulsor with fewer weapons. I have seen someone suggest a Land Speeders Storm successor. That would certainly be neat, but I want something that is enclosed. Something about the size of a Rhino model. Probably Grav based, but I would like something wheeled or tracked.

Anyway, I am looking at running a full squad of Hellblasters backed by Pedro Kantor and an Apothecary now. Dropping Heroes of Rynn's World and having less fear from Overcharging is pretty great. The Apothecary could just resurrect anyone that has died. Another option would be to stick the Expert Instructor Warlord Trait on a Lieutenant and have him go with them instead of Pedro Kantor. Now, the question is, do I give that Lieutenant a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle, MS Auto Bolt Rifle, or a Power Sword.

It is too bad Expert Instructor Warlord Trait doesn't work on non-Liberator Strike Force units, otherwise I would stick that Lieutenant with a squad of Lascannon Devastators and give him a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The aggressor being in the squad is an advantage DW have thus why I said there version is superior (on top of the SIA). Aggressors can be very good in those kill teams and they have served me very well. Just three of them mixed in three different squads (3 total) made a HUGE impact in my last game against orks. Absolute UNITS.

Well orks are a great example of a time when auto bolters on DW primaris make sense. They only have a 6+ save or a 5++ and they aren't exact fast. You can kite the crap out of ork boys with intercessors that are advancing and shooting and they don't have armor to speak of anyways. What I was thinking about was running 1 aggressor 1 inceptor with plasma and 8 auto bolters - probably taking 3 units like this and like 1 or 2 units of 5 boltrifle 4 hellbalsters 1 inceptor with plasma for going after the bigger threats. That's 100 wounds with a 3+ save and you still have some points left over for your Full HQ allotment and probably a vet unit with storm bolters and storm shields that you deep strike in or 2 units depending to make 6 troops. Then probably as many twin las and missle dreads as you can fit.

That is a really strong force. I think tournament worthy if played well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The aggressor being in the squad is an advantage DW have thus why I said there version is superior (on top of the SIA). Aggressors can be very good in those kill teams and they have served me very well. Just three of them mixed in three different squads (3 total) made a HUGE impact in my last game against orks. Absolute UNITS.

Well orks are a great example of a time when auto bolters on DW primaris make sense. They only have a 6+ save or a 5++ and they aren't exact fast. You can kite the crap out of ork boys with intercessors that are advancing and shooting and they don't have armor to speak of anyways. What I was thinking about was running 1 aggressor 1 inceptor with plasma and 8 auto bolters - probably taking 3 units like this and like 1 or 2 units of 5 boltrifle 4 hellbalsters 1 inceptor with plasma for going after the bigger threats. That's 100 wounds with a 3+ save and you still have some points left over for your Full HQ allotment and probably a vet unit with storm bolters and storm shields that you deep strike in or 2 units depending to make 6 troops. Then probably as many twin las and missle dreads as you can fit.

That is a really strong force. I think tournament worthy if played well.

If you are concerned with ork hordes look no further than veterans. Deepstrike to always make sure you get to hit first. 3+ re-rolling 1s wounding on 2s re-rolling with 40 shots per squad. Each 10 man squad can wipe out or HEAVILY damage a 30 boy blob.

I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

Bolded section is a problem for Marines in general and not just for Primaris, all the scenarios count bodies rather than point and Marines cost too much. GW even recognized that and gave us an ObSec rule before anyone else had it, and then hit us with the collateral nerf bat. Maybe a rewrite our special ObSec rule so Tac Marines and Intercessors count double or even triple for ObSec or something like that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

Personally, I’d like to see Aggressors just replace terminators - bumped up in stats if needed. I would like to see a 5-man transport along the lines of a Rhino/Razorback and some sort of bike (grav or wheeled). As far as heavy weapons, if they got an alt build to Hellblasters and that was it, that’d be fine (maybe Lascannons?).

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

 Stormonu wrote:


Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I think deepstrike should be limited a lot in each codex. Then the drop pods, at the current price of 65 points, would have a role maybe. I'd also let them arrive closer than 9'' to the enemy (to fire flamers and meltas at full strenght) but if you do you can't assault in the same turn.

 Blackie wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:


Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I think deepstrike should be limited a lot in each codex. Then the drop pods, at the current price of 65 points, would have a role maybe. I'd also let them arrive closer than 9'' to the enemy (to fire flamers and meltas at full strenght) but if you do you can't assault in the same turn.

Well, if Primaris units could ride in them, they might see some use. Now that the RG stratagem is nerfed putting some Hellblasters or even Invictus Veteran Intercessors in the pods might be worth the points.

Primaris not being able to ride at least in things that terminators can is ridiculous. 10 plague marines can fit in a rhino yet 5 Intercessors can’t. Give me a break. Hellblasters should be popping out of pods obliterating things. Veteran Intercessors with rifles should be firing four shots each jumping out of an assault cannon Razorback imo. Aggressors should be obliterating chaff with the help of a Land Raider Crusader.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

Personally, I’d like to see Aggressors just replace terminators - bumped up in stats if needed. I would like to see a 5-man transport along the lines of a Rhino/Razorback and some sort of bike (grav or wheeled). As far as heavy weapons, if they got an alt build to Hellblasters and that was it, that’d be fine (maybe Lascannons?).

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I rather have aggressors be the Centurion replacement. While Primaris getting their own terminator counterpart.

I agree with Asherion Command. Terminator armour is so iconic and I’ve loved the look of it for 20 years; hulked to Primaris proportions with less spindly thighs would make for fantastic minis.

A pure Primaris force has two glaring weaknesses right now:

1) No unit that is dangerous in melee has a good delivery method.
2) The only real anti-armor ranged weapons are on the 300+ pt Repulsor.

That's the minimum GW needs to address to make Primaris viable as a stand-alone force. #1 could be addressed with a "disembark after the transport moves," strategem (and Marines need something like that anyway). #2 should hopefully get resolved organically as more things get released and GW lets one of their inevitable broken units escape.

Bremon wrote:
I agree with Asherion Command. Terminator armour is so iconic and I’ve loved the look of it for 20 years; hulked to Primaris proportions with less spindly thighs would make for fantastic minis.

Yep. I want this. Gravis is not the same.

 Blackie wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:


Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I think deepstrike should be limited a lot in each codex. Then the drop pods, at the current price of 65 points, would have a role maybe. I'd also let them arrive closer than 9'' to the enemy (to fire flamers and meltas at full strenght) but if you do you can't assault in the same turn.

Yeah, I agree I’d like to see deep strike curtailed a LOT more; it takes a good bit away from the maneuver part of the game when everybody/everything can just drop immediately into shooting/charge range rather than have to tactically work their way there.

It would be interesting though, if you could drop pods ON an enemy squad - at some risk to the pod/passengers. Certainly, dropping them closer than 9” seems like a good special ability. At the same time, with realities of assaults like St. Marie Elise - where troops parachuting right into an armed enemy were mutilated, the advantage of dropping closer should come with a risk the arrivals getting plastered before they can get their bearings (maybe represented by counter Strategms instead of the typical GW, “roll a 1 and die”).

If Drop Pods could hold the same units they used to be able to, but also came in Turn 1 instead of having to wait until Turn 2 like most units, they would be worth their points.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
For the THIRD time now: Deathwatch can only deliver three units via deep strike. Stop acting like you can just magically point at the board and have 100 stormbolter Vets just appear.

Perhaps I have not elucidated my thoughts as clearly as I would wish, but deep striking 100 vets was never something I thought of. The reason I am ragging on primaris auto bolt rifles as being bad is because there is a blatantly better option available. Once you have your two or three veterans squads DSing in (could be four if you use beacon angelis) they cover the job that auto bolt rifle intercessors would do. Or if you want you can just walk them around the board like you would do with the auto bolter bros and move 1d6 inches less, but put out superior firepower and have a 3++ invuln. Auto bolt rifle intercessors just don't have a niche to fill that something else does not do better. They are passable in DW if you don't want to use veterans, but for normal marines they just don't perform at all.

Yeah, it's weird. The biggest hit to the efficacy of DW Primaris turned out to be a completely unnecessary and grossly excessive buff to Veterans.

The gap between the two existed before, but there was a case for using Fortis Kill Teams.

That case no longer exists. You're now actively harming your list by picking any single Primaris option over its mini counterpart.

Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are almost as bad for primaris. So are necron destroyers. So are HSBCs. Etc.

I'm confused, Martel - why are multiples of a bank bad for Primaris?

 Irbis wrote:

And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?

You mean the two box sets that are full of units that CAN'T use the above formation? These ones? Especially IF box seeing IF formation is primaris-free?

Please put your tinfoil hat on.

Well, the IF box is a CF box waiting to happen, I guess.

Martel732 wrote:
A marine with missile launcher or plasma cannon is a joke compared to reaper with no buffs. Just ask mr. Ghostkeel.

Last I checked, Mr Ghostkeel was neither a marine with a missile launcher, nor a marine with a plasma cannon... so why am I asking him?

The CA point changes left the Tac Marine profile in a really weird spot.

14 ppm veterans looks like the final nail for them, but then you realize Sternguard have to take the special issue bolters so they're actually 16 ppm, and Company Veterans might as well have had the Storm Shield just added to their profile so they're also 16 ppm. And while a 3++ is clearly better than W2 against the stuff that tears up Marines, Veterans are using up an Elite slot that could be going to a Dreadnaught or Vanguard Vets now that those are at a better price-point.

It makes me think the "old-marines are getting soft-squatted" people are on to something, and I'm thinking seriously about building Dev squads out of my non-Deathwatch-legal heavies, and then re-badging everything that's left as DW.

Using up an elite slots means nothing. There are six in a Battalion and if that's not enough Vanguard Detachments exist.

 Crimson wrote:
Using up an elite slots means nothing. There are six in a Battalion and if that's not enough Vanguard Detachments exist.

Wait, what?

[Checks Battlescribe/]

Well I'll be damned. Wonder why I though it was only 3.

Not sure it actually changes my calculations much though.

 Irbis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
It's not just CA, vigilus shows thsi as well... pretty much everyone got pretty standard meh fluffy rules but Primaris got the ability to take two traits and some awesome command points:
1 CP to let the stalker ones target characters.

1 CP to let the normal ones become Rapid fire 2. So if you get within 15" that's 4 shots per model.

1 CP to let the assault versions auto-hit within 12"

Nonsense. This formation is complete garbage, seeing you 'forgot' about 2 CP per unit minimum to even use it, stalker is bad, way too expensive, one shot only, and completely lacks bite, while auto bolter is just glorified normal bolter for way too many points. Yup, paying 3 CP (since you forgot that bit) to deal 6 more S4 AP- hits is sure great!

You also "forgot" that Sternguard with storm bolters, who are less expensive than primaris BTW, do 4 shots all the time, are cheaper, and don't cost 3 CP. Gee, standard SM are sure bad!

Literally the only OK primaris formation in Vigilus is the Crimson Fist one. Gee, that sure benefits all of two CF players on this board, and pushes primaris sales up...

And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?

You mean the two box sets that are full of units that CAN'T use the above formation? These ones? Especially IF box seeing IF formation is primaris-free?

Please put your tinfoil hat on.

Hey, at least the devs didn't lie when they said standard marines "arn't going anywhere". They just actually meant they literally were not going anywhere forwards or backwards.

Yup, and that's why veteran standard marines got massive point cuts in CA and avesome new formations in Vigilus.

"Anywhere"?

Meanwhile, primaris Reivers and Hellblasters got nothing, their bodies being now more expensive than Intercessors for no reason whatsoever. These two are actually really going nowhere...

Lol. Dude I annihilated a guard list this past weekend with this formation. Dude literally got mad and quit turn two because all his characters were dead turn 1 shooting.

Was there literally no way for him to LoS block his characters? No Terrain? No tanks to hide behind?

What strikes me about that Crimson Fist formation is it's hitting the shelves at exactly the same time as the new City Fight rules, meaning that their Chapter Trait suddenly got a whole lot more valuable.

Edit: Same goes for Imperial Fist. That one doesn't benefit Primaris, but it does help all the Dreadnaughts, Centurions, and the Vindicator, none of which got quite enough of a points drop.

The Newman wrote:
What strikes me about that Crimson Fist formation is it's hitting the shelves at exactly the same time as the new City Fight rules, meaning that their Chapter Trait suddenly got a whole lot more valuable.

Hopefully that shapes up the meta. We will see.

I just hope its enough but we need cost reductions for primaris inceptors and aggressors severely to make them viable and a close combat unit to help the primaris issue of getting stuck in tar pits.

 Asherian Command wrote:

I just hope its enough but we need cost reductions for primaris inceptors and aggressors severely to make them viable and a close combat unit to help the primaris issue of getting stuck in tar pits.

Speaking of Aggressors and close combat units, I really feel that their fists should give them an extra attack. A pair of lightning claws gives an extra attack and this pair of fists should too.

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I just hope its enough but we need cost reductions for primaris inceptors and aggressors severely to make them viable and a close combat unit to help the primaris issue of getting stuck in tar pits.

Speaking of Aggressors and close combat units, I really feel that their fists should give them an extra attack. A pair of lightning claws gives an extra attack and this pair of fists should too.

I mean pistols used to give you an additional attack as well. why they removed that i'll never know :derp:

But it should honestly its two of the same weapon it should confer +1 attack.

your swinging both your fists not one!

If anything i would love to see a 'termintator' gravis armor that has dual lighting claws with underslung bolters. Except their whole idea is just close combat that'd be cool.

It is an interesting move with Primaris marines, more than anything they know that there biggest player base are SM, or a variant of, and it is a smart business decision to pump some more units into a army with a an abundance of players. However, I'm not sold that your run of the mill tactical marine will be gone in the future, or even phased out.

For example, look at TW cav, they couldn't primaris them without it being silly.. 'we have made even bigger wolves'. Primaris stuff is seeming to fill a niche at the moment, and I see it staying this way. Plus they are making an effort to make primaris specific chapters. Most likely, none primaris chapters will become the guard of the SM world! But what do I know, just my thoughts. Also I am quite biased as I am not a huge fan of primaris marines, I hate the lack of character in them.

I will also add that making a majority of your player bases armies redundant seems bizarre and I can't really ever see that happening.

Do you think they'd not Priarmis-size TW Cav just because it'd be silly?

They might not do it because they don't spend the resources to, but considering Murderfang and Santa Grimnar, I doubt a sudden burst of restraint will show up to prevent Primaris TW Cav.

This is a game that contains Centurions... Lord of Skulls... Helbrutes... old-as-the-hills Dreadnought models, and a chapter master who cosplays as Santa Clause.

GW doesn’t care about silliness. Just money.

I have 2 boxes worth of Death Company and 3 of Sanguinary Guard. I’d replace them all if they got the Primaris treatment. Especially if it meant mould lines on SG weren’t gak and their weapon options weren’t so limited per box.

 Alphabet wrote:
It is an interesting move with Primaris marines, more than anything they know that there biggest player base are SM, or a variant of, and it is a smart business decision to pump some more units into a army with a an abundance of players. However, I'm not sold that your run of the mill tactical marine will be gone in the future, or even phased out.

For example, look at TW cav, they couldn't primaris them without it being silly.. 'we have made even bigger wolves'. Primaris stuff is seeming to fill a niche at the moment, and I see it staying this way. Plus they are making an effort to make primaris specific chapters. Most likely, none primaris chapters will become the guard of the SM world! But what do I know, just my thoughts. Also I am quite biased as I am not a huge fan of primaris marines, I hate the lack of character in them.

I will also add that making a majority of your player bases armies redundant seems bizarre and I can't really ever see that happening.

If anything they will probably shift it into of a 30k thing where the primaris are the end astartes, and the regular space marines are still around but function as neophytes. I don't see them keeping regular scouts.

All valid points! Maybe I am giving GW too much credit.

Sure... it is making the riders Primaris which would make the Thunderwolf Cavalry silly... *eyeroll*

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is an interesting move with Primaris marines, more than anything they know that there biggest player base are SM, or a variant of, and it is a smart business decision to pump some more units into a army with a an abundance of players. However, I'm not sold that your run of the mill tactical marine will be gone in the future, or even phased out.

For example, look at TW cav, they couldn't primaris them without it being silly.. 'we have made even bigger wolves'. Primaris stuff is seeming to fill a niche at the moment, and I see it staying this way. Plus they are making an effort to make primaris specific chapters. Most likely, none primaris chapters will become the guard of the SM world! But what do I know, just my thoughts. Also I am quite biased as I am not a huge fan of primaris marines, I hate the lack of character in them.

I will also add that making a majority of your player bases armies redundant seems bizarre and I can't really ever see that happening.

If anything they will probably shift it into of a 30k thing where the primaris are the end astartes, and the regular space marines are still around but function as neophytes. I don't see them keeping regular scouts.

Yes possibly, I am not sure how that would follow into SW, that is probably one of the books to come! In terms of lore, are standard marines still being made? Or is everything primaris now? As that might make the future a little bleaker for marines!

 Alphabet wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is an interesting move with Primaris marines, more than anything they know that there biggest player base are SM, or a variant of, and it is a smart business decision to pump some more units into a army with a an abundance of players. However, I'm not sold that your run of the mill tactical marine will be gone in the future, or even phased out.

For example, look at TW cav, they couldn't primaris them without it being silly.. 'we have made even bigger wolves'. Primaris stuff is seeming to fill a niche at the moment, and I see it staying this way. Plus they are making an effort to make primaris specific chapters. Most likely, none primaris chapters will become the guard of the SM world! But what do I know, just my thoughts. Also I am quite biased as I am not a huge fan of primaris marines, I hate the lack of character in them.

I will also add that making a majority of your player bases armies redundant seems bizarre and I can't really ever see that happening.

If anything they will probably shift it into of a 30k thing where the primaris are the end astartes, and the regular space marines are still around but function as neophytes. I don't see them keeping regular scouts.

Yes possibly, I am not sure how that would follow into SW, that is probably one of the books to come! In terms of lore, are standard marines still being made? Or is everything primaris now? As that might make the future a little bleaker for marines!

We are not sure and have no idea. What I do know is that primaris lack fundamental experience and to probably bridge that gap they might make it a requirement to be an old marine then to become a primaris.

As the Primaris upgrade is now definitely a thing, there is very little reason for old marines to continue to exist lore-wise.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is an interesting move with Primaris marines, more than anything they know that there biggest player base are SM, or a variant of, and it is a smart business decision to pump some more units into a army with a an abundance of players. However, I'm not sold that your run of the mill tactical marine will be gone in the future, or even phased out.

For example, look at TW cav, they couldn't primaris them without it being silly.. 'we have made even bigger wolves'. Primaris stuff is seeming to fill a niche at the moment, and I see it staying this way. Plus they are making an effort to make primaris specific chapters. Most likely, none primaris chapters will become the guard of the SM world! But what do I know, just my thoughts. Also I am quite biased as I am not a huge fan of primaris marines, I hate the lack of character in them.

I will also add that making a majority of your player bases armies redundant seems bizarre and I can't really ever see that happening.

If anything they will probably shift it into of a 30k thing where the primaris are the end astartes, and the regular space marines are still around but function as neophytes. I don't see them keeping regular scouts.

Yes possibly, I am not sure how that would follow into SW, that is probably one of the books to come! In terms of lore, are standard marines still being made? Or is everything primaris now? As that might make the future a little bleaker for marines!

We are not sure and have no idea. What I do know is that primaris lack fundamental experience and to probably bridge that gap they might make it a requirement to be an old marine then to become a primaris.

Hmm food for thought. It could be a similar situation to the Imperial Knights, starting out as a small branch of the Imperium, turning into a full fledged army. Testing the waters so to speak. However, I do understand how different the two are in terms of lore, one had always been in the background, whereas primaris is a new entity.

Hmm food for thought. It could be a similar situation to the Imperial Knights, starting out as a small branch of the Imperium, turning into a full fledged army. Testing the waters so to speak. However, I do understand how different the two are in terms of lore, one had always been in the background, whereas primaris is a new entity.

I hope not. I rather keep them together.

its already been covered that marines can become primaris. (Calgar turned into a primaris and ever since then there is a higher probability of marines turning into primaris.)

Primaris might be what the Adeptus Astartes turn into.

Making a 'funnel' effect where the veterans and those who prove themselves in Primaris Marines.

I think that would be the best course of action. And would create a hierarchy with space marines in general. And get rid of the division people have put into their minds about primaris and regular marines

As the Primaris upgrade is now definitely a thing, there is very little reason for old marines to continue to exist lore-wise.

You really like to ignore my discussion points don't you?

Primaris hem RealMarines in stats-wise. Clearly, RealMarines are beefier and better than IG. Clearly, RealMarines are less beefy and weaker than Primaris. Over time, that makes it hard to define each's niche. By rolling their stats together, they have more latitude for balance.

Bharring wrote:
Primaris hem RealMarines in stats-wise. Clearly, RealMarines are beefier and better than IG. Clearly, RealMarines are less beefy and weaker than Primaris. Over time, that makes it hard to define each's niche. By rolling their stats together, they have more latitude for balance.

Or they remove scouts from the codex. And making tac marines and all baseline marines stepping stones to be primaris.

 Asherian Command wrote:

You really like to ignore my discussion points don't you?

I just don't find your idea plausible. Primaris marines are already made from scratch, so limiting the upgrade only to the veterans makes no sense. GW has created a new marine aesthetic, and they will eventually want to fully transition to it. If there will be some sort of Primaris initiates then they will get new models.

Old marines will probably continue having some legacy support, like the axed FB armies do.

Bharring wrote:
Primaris hem RealMarines in stats-wise. Clearly, RealMarines are beefier and better than IG. Clearly, RealMarines are less beefy and weaker than Primaris. Over time, that makes it hard to define each's niche. By rolling their stats together, they have more latitude for balance.

“RealMarines” hahaha. Realest thing about them is how numbered their days are. WHFB sends its regards. Calgar was smart enough to hit the juice to blend in and avoid the Great Squatting of the ‘20s.

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

You really like to ignore my discussion points don't you?

I just don't find your idea plausible. Primaris marines are already made from scratch, so limiting the upgrade only to the veterans makes no sense. GW has created a new marine aesthetic, and they will eventually want to fully transition to it. If there will be some sort of Primaris initiates then they will get new models.

Old marines will probably continue having some legacy support, like the axed FB armies do.

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.

Time will tell what happens. I am not sold that old marines will be pushed into the past, there are literally 100s of kits forgeworld included. To reduce the appetite of buying well selling products to replace it with a Primaris equivalent marginalises a chunk of your fan base and paves an expensive path, for no real purpose. It seems more likely to me that Primaris will fill an elite niche. Of course this is my opinion, and am likely way off.

What are they supposed to say? We have a tiny product line of Primaris; immediately stop buying from our biggest line? Nope.

 Asherian Command wrote:

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.

That's obviously a lie though. I mean, you must understand that?

Bremon wrote:
What are they supposed to say? We have a tiny product line of Primaris; immediately stop buying from our biggest line? Nope.

Well you guys keep saying without evidence "Old Marines are going to be printed out entirely."

That I completely do not believe considering 30k still and will continue to exist... Why would they remove an entire market?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.

That's obviously a lie though. I mean, you must understand that?

Yeah you can't be trusted. If it clearly says it in writing they aren't going to then that is on you.

Let me know when some new mini marine kits are released Asherion. I’m sure we’ll get alternating waves of releases; Primaris, chimps, Primaris, chimps.

I can’t remember what forums were like at the start of 3rd, because I was too focused on Eldar. I wonder if RT fans were similarly concerned by the scale creep.

Didn't they say they would never again squat an army?

 Asherian Command wrote:

That I completely do not believe considering 30k still and will continue to exist... Why would they remove an entire market?

Why are they not selling the RT beakies anymore? Why are they not selling Bretonnians or Tomb Kings?

This is a revamp of the space marines, but because the line is so huge they cannot do it all at once, thus this awkward Primaris thing. If you want to be naïve, go ahead, invest in models that will become obsolete. People did that during the End Times too; but at least then it was not blindingly obvious that what was coming.

Bharring wrote:
Didn't they say they would never again squat an army?

Yep!

Its bad PR and it led to hatred and people leaving the hobby. They know its bad and why would they do that to the most iconic race in 40k?

Its fething stupid for people to suggest.

I just tune them off they offer little to no good discussion. Especially if they suggest the same thing over and over again.

Why are they not selling the RT beakies anymore?

They didn't those are old products. There is a difference between selling a new model kit and redefining an entire range and eliminating an entire range.

If you want examples of new marines releases look at forgeworld! Look at their legendary figures.

They will not replace space marines

This is off topic

Bharring wrote:
Didn't they say they would never again squat an army?

Perhaps. And then they squatted an entire game universe!

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Didn't they say they would never again squat an army?

Perhaps. And then they squatted an entire game universe!

Their new developer diaries suggested that was a bad move. Then they said "They will never do that again."

 Asherian Command wrote:

Their new developer diaries suggested that was a bad move. Then they said "They will never do that again."

Citation needed.

In terms of units primaris directly need combat units. Aggressors fill more of the centurion role.

It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

Sure. The next minimarine release will come right along with the new Bretonnian armybook.

 Crimson wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

Sure. The next minimarine release will come right along with the new Bretonnian armybook.

Sometimes you just have to let go..

Bharring wrote:
Didn't they say they would never again squat an army?

No one is suggesting Adeptus Astartes will be squatted. Plenty of models will be discontinued at some point though. Then the mini marines will get the index treatment.

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

Yeah no. Once Primaris were introduced it was clear GW would never make another 'normal' marine model again.

GW would never make another 'normal' marine model again.

Does anyone have a source for that damn claim?

Common sense seems a likely source.

Bremon wrote:
Common sense seems a likely source.

Common sense isn't a source.

 Asherian Command wrote:

GW would never make another 'normal' marine model again.

Does anyone have a source for that damn claim?

Sorry my time machine is in the garage.
Has a normal marine been released since 8th edition? (excluding some promotional figure somewhere)

Ofc GW isn't going to come out day 1 and say "Marines are scrapped. Buy Primaris". No there is no quote, there is deduction about why Primaris were 'invented' in the first place. To sell Marines to people who already have 100 marines. And how that means that GW has no reason to go back to making normal marines.
Calgar and his guard are just the icing on the cake. There is no reason to release normal marines when updating older models when you can re-release them as Primaris to a bigger audience instead.

No, +1 attack for minimarines or any other improvement, if you play the official rules and are predicting what GW will do, doesn’t matter it’s not going to happen. It’s also a slapdash change that doesn’t have any comprehensive basis. People even say it like that: “it would go a long way” “not perfect but,” “just a suggestion.” Primaris give exactly the gameplay marines are supposed to do in 8th edition.

If you meant how should you solve the power armor problem in an advanced rules version of the game that’s made for purposes of gaming and not as a commercial product then yeah, you could do a lot of changes. They still wouldn’t be these finicky special rules of rerolls or ignoring AP, or contextless and ineffectual ones like +1 attack.

Do we not count the Heroes of the Space Marines as normal Marines?

What about Heroes of the Space Marines Volume 2 (Terminator Boogaloo)?

 Ordana wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

GW would never make another 'normal' marine model again.

Does anyone have a source for that damn claim?

Sorry my time machine is in the garage.
Has a normal marine been released since 8th edition? (excluding some promotional figure somewhere)

Ofc GW isn't going to come out day 1 and say "Marines are scrapped. Buy Primaris". No there is no quote, there is deduction about why Primaris were 'invented' in the first place. To sell Marines to people who already have 100 marines. And how that means that GW has no reason to go back to making normal marines.
Calgar and his guard are just the icing on the cake. There is no reason to release normal marines when updating older models when you can re-release them as Primaris to a bigger audience instead.

So rereleasing certain space marine units in new box sets?

Ignoring the 30k series wrapping up with the focus on siege of terra. Forgeworld developing more marine models. And space marine heroes?

The rereleased the Cataprachts in a new box covered set that is labeled 40k not 30k. They will not get rid of marines in the forceable future.

You guys are stretching here.

We have had several special event units released and/or units specific by region that were normal space marines.

 Alphabet wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

Sure. The next minimarine release will come right along with the new Bretonnian armybook.

Sometimes you just have to let go..

That's what I've been saying!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Common sense isn't a source.

Not for those who lack it.

It's a notoriously unreliable source.

But then, that's why the OP specified the source when he made his comment.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

GW would never make another 'normal' marine model again.

Does anyone have a source for that damn claim?

Sorry my time machine is in the garage.
Has a normal marine been released since 8th edition? (excluding some promotional figure somewhere)

Ofc GW isn't going to come out day 1 and say "Marines are scrapped. Buy Primaris". No there is no quote, there is deduction about why Primaris were 'invented' in the first place. To sell Marines to people who already have 100 marines. And how that means that GW has no reason to go back to making normal marines.
Calgar and his guard are just the icing on the cake. There is no reason to release normal marines when updating older models when you can re-release them as Primaris to a bigger audience instead.

So rereleasing certain space marine units in new box sets?

Ignoring the 30k series wrapping up with the focus on siege of terra. Forgeworld developing more marine models. And space marine heroes?

The rereleased the Cataprachts in a new box covered set that is labeled 40k not 30k. They will not get rid of marines in the forceable future.

You guys are stretching here.

We have had several special event units released and/or units specific by region that were normal space marines.

I was late to 8th so unsure on the dates, but could you not consider Deathwatch as a SM release in 8th?

 Alphabet wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

GW would never make another 'normal' marine model again.

Does anyone have a source for that damn claim?

Sorry my time machine is in the garage.
Has a normal marine been released since 8th edition? (excluding some promotional figure somewhere)

Ofc GW isn't going to come out day 1 and say "Marines are scrapped. Buy Primaris". No there is no quote, there is deduction about why Primaris were 'invented' in the first place. To sell Marines to people who already have 100 marines. And how that means that GW has no reason to go back to making normal marines.
Calgar and his guard are just the icing on the cake. There is no reason to release normal marines when updating older models when you can re-release them as Primaris to a bigger audience instead.

So rereleasing certain space marine units in new box sets?

Ignoring the 30k series wrapping up with the focus on siege of terra. Forgeworld developing more marine models. And space marine heroes?

The rereleased the Cataprachts in a new box covered set that is labeled 40k not 30k. They will not get rid of marines in the forceable future.

You guys are stretching here.

We have had several special event units released and/or units specific by region that were normal space marines.

I was late to 8th so unsure on the dates, but could you not consider Deathwatch as a SM release in 8th?

Or Kill team!

Can't forget them.

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

They are being phased, this was gone over in the Jes Goodwin interview. He's on a 5 year advance schedule, and they're already sculpting Primaris Marines who will be the upgraded old space marines. Oldmarines are probably getting pushed out by around 2024-ish.

Of course oldmarines are being phased. They don’t have an independent existence that has to be protected, they’re plastic in a box sold for money. Phasing then out is the only way to resolve the stupid contradiction of having two types of marine, and it gets rid of the internet meme that marines are 8 feet tall by just making new marines who really are 8 feet tall.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Of course oldmarines are being phased. They don’t have an independent existence that has to be protected, they’re plastic in a box sold for money. Phasing then out is the only way to resolve the stupid contradiction of having two types of marine, and it gets rid of the internet meme that marines are 8 feet tall by just making new marines who really are 8 feet tall.

(They're not though. If we assume that the Primaris are in the same scale than GWs normal humans, they're seven and half feet at the best.)

Otherwise agreed.

Well if all else fails, old marines can be primaris squats.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Of course oldmarines are being phased. They don’t have an independent existence that has to be protected, they’re plastic in a box sold for money. Phasing then out is the only way to resolve the stupid contradiction of having two types of marine, and it gets rid of the internet meme that marines are 8 feet tall by just making new marines who really are 8 feet tall.

Marines are supposed to be head taller than human=7 feet tall. Custodians who are head taller than marines are the 8 feet ones. And here in we run into problem. Primaris marines are custodian sized. Which means primaris marines are not true scale space marines. They are too large for that. They are only true scale marines if they are new type of space marines that are taller than normal space marines.

I have said this thousand times, Custodians are just not as tall as you think. Problem solved.

tneva82 wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Of course oldmarines are being phased. They don’t have an independent existence that has to be protected, they’re plastic in a box sold for money. Phasing then out is the only way to resolve the stupid contradiction of having two types of marine, and it gets rid of the internet meme that marines are 8 feet tall by just making new marines who really are 8 feet tall.

Marines are supposed to be head taller than human=7 feet tall. Custodians who are head taller than marines are the 8 feet ones. And here in we run into problem. Primaris marines are custodian sized. Which means primaris marines are not true scale space marines. They are too large for that. They are only true scale marines if they are new type of space marines that are taller than normal space marines.

Good point.. a scaling of space marines offsets everything else too, this would include orks aswell surely, and possibly other xenos races, certain eldar kits possibly?

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:

I was late to 8th so unsure on the dates, but could you not consider Deathwatch as a SM release in 8th?

Or Kill team!

Can't forget them.

Both of those were 7th though? Or are you guys talking about rules? Because rules are a different beast than models.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Both of those were 7th though? Or are you guys talking about rules? Because rules are a different beast than models.

And In the current KIllteam all the Commander characters marines can take are Primaris.

 Crimson wrote:
I have said this thousand times, Custodians are just not as tall as you think. Problem solved.

No we know exactly how tall they are, nine feet. The issue is that for some reason you keep shoving your fanon into everything with the obsession of the number seven. Something which isn't shared by GW. Primaris iirc were stated to range between 8-9 feet during the Phil Kelly twitch stream.

They tower over mortal men; each has the statuesque physique of an ancient hero, close to nine feet in height even without his scarlet-crested helm.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I have said this thousand times, Custodians are just not as tall as you think. Problem solved.

No we know exactly how tall they are, nine feet. The issue is that for some reason you keep shoving your fanon into everything with the obsession of the number seven. Something which isn't shared by GW. Primaris iirc were stated to range between 8-9 feet during the Phil Kelly twitch stream.

They tower over mortal men; each has the statuesque physique of an ancient hero, close to nine feet in height even without his scarlet-crested helm.

I need citation for Primaris being 8-9 feet. And if Custodes are supposed to be nine feet, then their models are just way too short. Compared to normal human models, they're about seven and half, just like the Primaris. And of course some BL authors think that normal marines are ten feet, so I really wouldn't trust anything they say anyway, the numbers are all over the place.

Officially space marines are 6'5" from that contest years back where you could win a stack of kits 'as tall as a space marine' and that measured out to 6'5"

Sorry it was 7ft or 210cm...I had misremembered
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6336

 Crimson wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

Sure. The next minimarine release will come right along with the new Bretonnian armybook.

Too far man... Too far.

What's the deal with people referring to sniper Scouts as good all of a sudden? When did that happen?

Mini marines are going to get killed in the fluff as they all get converted to Primaris in big lots now.

Mini marines are going to get no new releases.

Mini marines will get counts as rules in future editions of the game.

Now, were they squatted? Nope. Still there, see you got the rules and everything you can play them, and still buy lots off ebay.

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Alphabet wrote:
It is likely that standard marines will not get a release for a while. But that doesn't mean they are being phased out, nor does it mean that they will not get a release ever again. Primaris is just a new flavour of ice-cream, doesn't mean they are gonna discontinue vanilla.

Sure. The next minimarine release will come right along with the new Bretonnian armybook.

Too far man... Too far.

This but a bridge to far.
GW, you ruthless tyrant, give me back mine Khemrians, thou bastard

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What's the deal with people referring to sniper Scouts as good all of a sudden? When did that happen?

Sniper rifle got cheaper.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What's the deal with people referring to sniper Scouts as good all of a sudden? When did that happen?

About the same time it managed to take top tables due to mortal wound fishing.

A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

A write up of the Vanilla marine list and play by the player.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/09/reecius-nova-tournament-report-vanilla-space-marines-are-viable.html

All hail our lord and saviour Roboute. The magical fix that makes “all” marines viable.

bananathug wrote:
A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

Well, since then the list saw play by NN who ran it to 4th with a few changes.

And nobody said it fixed marines lol, that's quite the strawman. It did prove that units and wargear long thought worthless turned out to be valuable - it just required someone smarter and much more skilled than the average dakkanaut to show it.

Bremon wrote:
All hail our lord and saviour Roboute. The magical fix that makes “all” marines viable.

Landing a MW w/ Bobby : 15 * .888 * .306 = 4.1
MW w/ Chapter Master & Lieutenant Dan : 15 * .888 * .195 = 2.6

That's 266 points freed up, which you can use to make up the difference pretty easily.

People need to stop acting like there aren't other ways to get good rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:
It did prove that units and wargear long thought worthless turned out to be valuable - it just required someone smarter and much more skilled than the average dakkanaut to show it.

A lot of units suffer from the mathhammer menality and never make it to the table, because of that.

That 266 points going to make up for the full wound rerolls on the rest of the units that Guilliman is buffing Daedalus? No? Didn’t think so. Not to mention that he’s more deadly than a dreadnought in CC as a threat deterrent. Thanks for your opinion though.

Landing a MW w/ Bobby : 15 * .888 * .306 = 4.1
MW w/ Chapter Master & Lieutenant Dan : 15 * .888 * .195 = 2.6

But don't you lose the melee abilty, the resurect and end with 2 HQs that die much easier that way. Not saying Gulliman is a 300pts castellan, becuase he is not, but there is more to him then just re-rolls.

Personally, Primaris are what Space Marines should have been: tall, proud and with 2 wounds. Maybe it's time for the SM to be retired aux status such as HQs, dreadnoughts and veterans, at least it is more dignified than the Thunder warriors.

Lemondish wrote:

bananathug wrote:
A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

Well, since then the list saw play by NN who ran it to 4th with a few changes.

And nobody said it fixed marines lol, that's quite the strawman. It did prove that units and wargear long thought worthless turned out to be valuable - it just required someone smarter and much more skilled than the average dakkanaut to show it.

No, it showed all wargear looks viable when you're sitting next to Roboute. That takes no skill to actually see.

Bremon wrote:
That 266 points going to make up for the full wound rerolls on the rest of the units that Guilliman is buffing Daedalus? No? Didn’t think so. Not to mention that he’s more deadly than a dreadnought in CC as a threat deterrent. Thanks for your opinion though.

*snort*

I could buy two dreadnoughts with that gap, but ok.

You think everything is in bubble range of RG at all times? Maybe the example list is and really low model count armies can do that, too. That's why you don't see him often - especially in ITC - because the army can't be where it needs to be for objectives. But that isn't the point, is it?

Also, those full reroll wounds get you an extra 14% on something that wounds on a 3 and 28% if you're wounding on a 4 over reroll 1s.

That game where NN came in 4th he only did so because his opponent misplayed his knights gauntlets ability (didn't do the auto mortal wounds on it, allowing Gman to fight back that round, killing the knight)...

The list is a bad gimick that doesn't work against most lists and is not viable any more due to the rise of orcs.

It also doesn't work at all without Gman because you are fishing for 6s with mortal wound snipers. If you are only re-rolling ones you basically halve your chances of getting wounds. Buffing 4 units of snipers you'd need to add 4 units of snipers costing at least the 266 points you'd save and then you run into issues of fitting them and the rest of your list into his 6" bubble, out of LOS and you're wasting 3 CP which you need to spam your flakk/hellfire strats, re-rolls for shooting on death and apothecary raises.

Again, gimick army that doesn't work any more. Same thing for necrons spamming vaults. Just because one crazy build is competitively viable (it hasn't won anything, didn't win a game in the winners bracket by the guy who made it up at a tournament it was designed for and came in 4th in another tournament because of a misplay) by guys who spend more time playing 40k than most of us do on our jobs, doesn't say anything about the viability of a codex. It just means those guys are really good at 40k and could probably replicate the same level of success with a lot of armies.

Bet NN isn't bringing it to LVO. Hell it won't finish in the top 50 at LVO because it's not good and there are so many other lists with better, more powerful tools available in other codexes.

Is the argument that it is a powerful list? Other lists spam more MW cheaper with more resiliency. Is the argument that because some really good players did okay with it that marines are fine? Having one okay build makes the marine dex okay? That we should stop saying our codex is underpowered because there is one build that given all things going perfectly could get into the winners bracket?

I'm not sure what the point is.

I'm contesting the notion that Bobby fixes everything (and is the only fix) when other tools are available.

I'm not making a claim of the viability of gimmick lists or the health of marine books.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bremon wrote:
That 266 points going to make up for the full wound rerolls on the rest of the units that Guilliman is buffing Daedalus? No? Didn’t think so. Not to mention that he’s more deadly than a dreadnought in CC as a threat deterrent. Thanks for your opinion though.

*snort*

I could buy two dreadnoughts with that gap, but ok.

You think everything is in bubble range of RG at all times? Maybe the example list is and really low model count armies can do that, too. That's why you don't see him often - especially in ITC - because the army can't be where it needs to be for objectives. But that isn't the point, is it?

Also, those full reroll wounds get you an extra 14% on something that wounds on a 3 and 28% if you're wounding on a 4 over reroll 1s.

*snort*

Are those dreadnoughts as survivable as Roboute? They can be targeted and blown up turn one, but ok.

I’m not someone who uses Roboute. I don’t play UM. I have a fundamental problem with him existing, because he breaks the internal balance of the codex, and by extension, each snowflake codex.

bananathug wrote:
A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

How?

There's... okay, you get 8 MW on average from flak and hellfire per dev squad you use a cherub for.

How many friggen scouts did he have to take to do the remaining 16 MWs?