There have been talks out there how The Passion can be used to break the fight phase for sisters of battle.
I have been wrapping my hear around this to and understand the theories people have come up with, but I would love an open debate on this topic.
Some background:
The Passion (an act of faith cast on a 5+ on 1d6) :
Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
Now the BRB Fight Phase
1. Chose a unit to fight with.
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase... (rest of the text does not contribute to the debate)
Now the argument is that normally you cannot chose a unit to fight with unless it has met the restrictions in the BRB. The beta codex however seems to overrule this changing the restriction to passing the act of fight and then indicating the unit can be chosen to fight with twice. It basically seems to overwrite the standard restrictions. You don't have to check if the units can be chosen, the act is telling you to chose the unit.
This by itself would not be a big deal if it was not for vessel of the emperor. A 3CP stratagem that alllows you to cascade this AoF from a character unto every units within 6 inches of it. With proper placement it could allow to move an extra 12 inches with large portion of your army into the fight phase.
The rule is worded word for word "Use this act of faith at the start of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase"
So the rule is stated, you may be selected twice in that phase.
It never said you may fight, but when it is chosen to fight, it may be chosen twice.
Then in the BRB it is stated how you are chosen to fight, you must have charged, or are within 1" of an enemy unit.
Some rules will state that you may be chosen to fight out of order, and they are worded to do so.
Example: Ynnari "this unit my fight as if it were the fight phase" it is stating you may fight, not to be chosen again.
Amishprn86 wrote: The rule is worded word for word "Use this act of faith at the start of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase"
So the rule is stated, you may be selected twice in that phase.
It never said you may fight, but when it is chosen to fight, it may be chosen twice.
Then in the BRB it is stated how you are chosen to fight, you must have charged, or are within 1" of an enemy unit.
Some rules will state that you may be chosen to fight out of order, and they are worded to do so.
Example: Ynnari "this unit my fight as if it were the fight phase" it is stating you may fight, not to be chosen again.
Yeah, I agree here. It lets you pick the unit twice, and that's it. It doesn't ignore any of the other rules for fighting.
DeathReaper wrote: "can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.
Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.
The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.
The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice". If you follow the description on the tin, that unit can be chosen to fight, and then be chosen to fight a second time with the normal rules regarding alternating activations still applying.
Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the targeting restriction of "must be within an inch of enemy model", but that was removed for the Chapter Approved rework.
Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the wording of "an additional time", thus requiring you to satisfy the rules to fight for the first fight.
The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight.
The fact that you can use it when none of the effected units are in combat is likely an unintended edge-case of that coupled with Big FAQ2 mandating that you don't skip phases even if you have no units eligible for them.
"The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight. "
No, it seems clear when you fight, you are allowed to fight a second time.
Anyways there is a FAQ that already says if you are not within 1" you can not melee unless the rules says otherwise, just like all Aeldari, Nids, etc.. rules state that you get to pile in, or immediately fight. The Passion say neither.
DeathReaper wrote: "can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.
Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.
The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.
The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice". If you follow the description on the tin, that unit can be chosen to fight, and then be chosen to fight a second time with the normal rules regarding alternating activations still applying.
Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the targeting restriction of "must be within an inch of enemy model", but that was removed for the Chapter Approved rework.
Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the wording of "an additional time", thus requiring you to satisfy the rules to fight for the first fight.
The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight.
The fact that you can use it when none of the effected units are in combat is likely an unintended edge-case of that coupled with Big FAQ2 mandating that you don't skip phases even if you have no units eligible for them.
Why do you consider alternating activation to still be a thing but not basic selection rules ?
The older AoF was worded that way because it was triggered before your movement phase and not during the fight phase which already has a set of rules to handle close combat, contrary to the movement phase.
You're in the fight phase so you must follow the fight phase rules until your codex say otherwise. So you're able to fight twice (in a row if you charged, alternated if you didn't) but you can't do it if previous requirements "to fight" aren't met.
DeathReaper wrote: "can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.
Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.
The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.
The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice".
Yes, but they need to be able to be chosen once to be able to be chosen twice. and only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the fight phase. This is how units are chosen for the first time in the fight phase.
If you follow the description on the tin, that unit can be chosen to fight, and then be chosen to fight a second time with the normal rules regarding alternating activations still applying.
and the normal rules about being chosen to fight still applying.
Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the targeting restriction of "must be within an inch of enemy model", but that was removed for the Chapter Approved rework.
This only meant that you could not choose a unit that is not within an inch of enemy model and give them a free pile in move without actually having to fight. Its removal is meaningless though.
Before Chapter Approved 2018, the same Act with the same name had the wording of "an additional time", thus requiring you to satisfy the rules to fight for the first fight.
again meaningless. it has no bearing on the current rules.
The thought process seems clearly designed to make The Passion splash onto units which are not in range to fight via Vessel of the Emperor, and thus allow them to enter the fight.
Incorrect. because you still need to follow the basic rules as nothing in the new rules says anything about ifnoring the fight phase rules for choosing units to fight with.
The fact that you can use it when none of the effected units are in combat is likely an unintended edge-case of that coupled with Big FAQ2 mandating that you don't skip phases even if you have no units eligible for them.
But you can not use it when none of the effected units are in combat. If you were to try, you would be breaking the fight phase rules. and we should strive to break no rule.
Its basically 2 players saying you can ignore all fight phase rule b.c they said so. They are not showing any rules as to why it ignore the main phases rules. So im done talking about it.
At this point just send the question to the FAQ team, next week the CAfaq comes out, make sure its in there.
Your condition: Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful,
Your result: the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
Your condition: Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit
Your result: can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase
The wording on The Passion seems to imply that you simply do not refer to the Step 1 of the fight phase as your unit has already been chosen after passing the Act of Faith.
Making a call on four or five people discussing does not seem very constructive, I would definitely like to hear more opinions.
If they didnt charge, or arent within 1", they cant be chosen to fight. The passion wouldnt work on them. But, i would suggest emailing 40kfaq@gwpl.com.
Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?
A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.
DeathReaper wrote: "can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.
Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.
The BRB uses the phrase "Can be chosen" to qualify units for being able to fight. They start in "not eligible" by default.
The Passion explicitly says that the effected unit "Can be chosen to fight with twice".
Yes, but they need to be able to be chosen once to be able to be chosen twice. and only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the fight phase. This is how units are chosen for the first time in the fight phase.
I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.
Choose an apple. (1 apple picked)
Choose an apple twice. (1 apple picked twice)
Choose an apple a second time. (1 apple picked assuming it was already picked at some earlier pre-determined time)
Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."
RAW it is giving you permission to chose the unit after passing the act of faith.
Its not asking you to refer to the fight phase and look at other details, its simply telling you that the unit can be chosen twice. Once a unit has been chosen, you move to phase 2.
Trying to assess the intention behind the rule does not help the conversation. In the end we might all be wrong and they intended something else completely or a ruling could be made either way.
Other rules dont disappear just because one rule says you can do something. You cant play a stratagem which gives +1 to hit rolls on an embarked unit, because a unit inside a transport cannot be affected in any way (unless the stratagem says it can be played on embarked units). I cant play only in death does duty end when my character which already fought in the fight phase was killed by my opponent. No unit may be chosen to fight more than once in each fight phase.
p5freak wrote: I cant play only in death does duty end when my character which already fought in the fight phase was killed by my opponent. No unit may be chosen to fight more than once in each fight phase.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
This is YMDC, it's specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion.
Not true. Yet again, HYWPI is a valid topic of conversation. The only thing you shouldn’t do is argue RAW against HYWPI as it doesn’t achieve anything.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
This is YMDC, it's specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion.
Not true. Yet again, HYWPI is a valid topic of conversation. The only thing you shouldn’t do is argue RAW against HYWPI as it doesn’t achieve anything.
Which is, what I was getting at. I should have said the following instead.
"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."
We shouldn't need GW to spell out everything for us just because they didn't copy/paste the whole fighting rules into a special rule paragraph.
We're in the fight phase, the phase where you can chose a unit ONCE to fight (if it meets certain conditions).
And we have an AoF that says you can chose it TWICE.
That's it. Note, they didn't even write "can fight twice", they specifically used "chose", which refers exactly to the fight phase and the unit order of fighting selection process.
Since the argument for it is "hey ! it's not written that it has to be a valid choice ! wink wink" then you could argue it isn't written either that you actually can bypass the selection process.
If it's not written that you override the standard rules, assume they are in effect. And the only part referring to the standard rules is the amount of time you can chose the unit. Thus, nothing else should change.
deviantduck wrote: I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.
It's exactly the other way around because they elected to use the word "chose". It's obvious it refers to the selection process of the fight phase where they also state you can CHOSE a unit once.
If they had said "if the aof is successful, you can immediately FIGHT twice", there wouldn't be any discussion. You would pick your unit and fight twice. That's not what they said though.
For once that their wording is consistent, we still manage to try to rip it apart
DeathReaper wrote: "can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase" Still requires you to be able to choose the unit to fight with in the first place.
Which means only units that charged or have models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen.
I am finding myself in this camp. Keeps things straightforward.
dhallnet wrote: We're in the fight phase, the phase where you can chose a unit ONCE to fight (if it meets certain conditions).
And we have an AoF that says you can chose it TWICE.
That's it. Note, they didn't even write "can fight twice", they specifically used "chose", which refers exactly to the fight phase and the unit order of fighting selection process.
The BRB rule actually says that you can choose a unit if it meets certain conditions.
Then in another sentence it says you can only choose a unit to fight once in the phase.
So if The Passion retained the original wording of "fight an additional time" it would respect that you had to be able to choose it fight the first time.
But they changed it "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase", which does two things:
Allows you to choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.
And allows you to choose the unit to fight in the fight phase a second time.
Since the argument for it is "hey ! it's not written that it has to be a valid choice ! wink wink"
The argument for it is "hey! The rule used to specifically deny doing this via two different methods, and they explicitly changed both of those and now this can happen."
then you could argue it isn't written either that you actually can bypass the selection process.
You're not bypassing it. The stratagem is literally telling you to do it. It's not even like a block of text or something where what it's telling you to do is confusing: it's one sentence that only says You can do this twice this phase. And the argument against it is "nuttuh, that's stupid."
deviantduck wrote: I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.
It's exactly the other way around because they elected to use the word "chose". It's obvious it refers to the selection process of the fight phase where they also state you can CHOSE a unit once.
If they had said "if the aof is successful, you can immediately FIGHT twice", there wouldn't be any discussion. You would pick your unit and fight twice. That's not what they said though.
I think you're missing the point here. Nobody is saying that the unit immediately fights twice. The issue is whether or not the unit can be chosen to fight twice, which the stratagem explicitly enables regardless of whether or not it could have been chosen to fight in the first place.
For once that their wording is consistent, we still manage to try to rip it apart
Yup. The BRB and the stratagem both use the exact same wording for enabling units to be chosen in the fight phase by saying "you can choose this unit" and people are still saying that's not what it means because reasons.
p5freak wrote: I cant play only in death does duty end when my character which already fought in the fight phase was killed by my opponent. No unit may be chosen to fight more than once in each fight phase.
You can do exactly that.
Other rules dont disappear just because one rule says you can do something. You cant play a stratagem which gives +1 to hit rolls on an embarked unit, because a unit inside a transport cannot be affected in any way (unless the stratagem says it can be played on embarked units).
There are rules that circumvent other rules all the time.
Battle shock rules get circumvented by the rule that says you only lose one model to battle shock traits for example.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
This is YMDC, it's specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion.
Not true. Yet again, HYWPI is a valid topic of conversation. The only thing you shouldn’t do is argue RAW against HYWPI as it doesn’t achieve anything.
dhallnet wrote: We shouldn't need GW to spell out everything for us just because they didn't copy/paste the whole fighting rules into a special rule paragraph.
We're in the fight phase, the phase where you can chose a unit ONCE to fight (if it meets certain conditions).
And we have an AoF that says you can chose it TWICE.
That's it. Note, they didn't even write "can fight twice", they specifically used "chose", which refers exactly to the fight phase and the unit order of fighting selection process.
Since the argument for it is "hey ! it's not written that it has to be a valid choice ! wink wink" then you could argue it isn't written either that you actually can bypass the selection process.
If it's not written that you override the standard rules, assume they are in effect. And the only part referring to the standard rules is the amount of time you can chose the unit. Thus, nothing else should change.
deviantduck wrote: I think you're off here. "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.
It's exactly the other way around because they elected to use the word "chose". It's obvious it refers to the selection process of the fight phase where they also state you can CHOSE a unit once.
If they had said "if the aof is successful, you can immediately FIGHT twice", there wouldn't be any discussion. You would pick your unit and fight twice. That's not what they said though.
For once that their wording is consistent, we still manage to try to rip it apart
Which is 100% correct. Then an army special rule (AoF Passion in this case) says ok, now choose a unit twice. Army trumps core rules.
Yup. The BRB and the stratagem both use the exact same wording for enabling units to be chosen in the fight phase by saying "you can choose this unit" and people are still saying that's not what it means because reasons.
There is a process to chose units to fight. Them not adding it again when it's already in the BRB doesn't mean you can just forget it, imho.
But whatever.
I have, and there is no actual proof, just your arguments ignoring rules.
So unless you have some actual proof, your argument is dis-proven.
You can not choose a unit twice if you do not have the ability to choose that unit to fight in the first place.
Do you have any rules that refute this fact? Because the "Sisters of Battle - The Passion" rules do not refute that fact.
deviantduck wrote: "Can be chosen to fight with twice" is granting permission to pick it once, then pick it again. Otherwise it would say "to fight with a second time" or "fight with again". By saying choose it twice, you are picking it both the first and second time with 1 rule.
Incorrect. The base rules give you the ability to Choose a unit and has rules to folow in doing so.
A rule stating a unit "Can" be chosen to fight twice hinges on them being eligible to be chosen in the first place. If it meant for them to be allowed to over-ride the basic rules about who you can choose it would say so. but since it does not, you have to follow the basic rules.
Basically you use the ability and it says "Can be chosen to fight with twice" so looking at the rest of the "Passion" rules, it does not tell us how to do this, so we need to refer to the base rules to choose a unit...
Or i understand english different than you and i say it doesnt ignore anything, that it is only when you do pick it to fight you may chose it a 2nd time. B.c the way other rules are written, you can only be "chosen" to fight if XYZ, and you dont meet XYZ criteria.
Edit: This reminds me of 6th ed Nids Pyrovore all over again.... "It says it hits everything, so i get to make hits on every unit on the table" yes.. clearly that 1 45pt model when it dies gets to make 700 to 1000 hits.
We get it, we just don't agree that it allows you to skip anything since it doesn't say so, where "you" think it allows you to since it doesn't repeat the fight rules.
It's like if we had an AoF "if successful then the unit can shoot twice", we would be able to shoot without being in range or line of sight, just because it didn't say we needed to check these.
If we want to read stuff in a weird way and since you decide to ignore what "chose" means in this context despite the BRB having a paragraph dedicated to it, what does fight means ? Why do you suddenly remember the rules there and follow them to pile in and consolidate when in plain english, "fight" doesn't mean moving ?
So yeah, it's pretty much a case of selective reading/understanding.
So you really believe, that this could be used on a unit, nowhere near an enemy, to allow them to pile in, consolidate, pile in again and consolidate again, to move an extra 12" in the fight phase without fighting anyone?
Yeah, that's nuts, and clearly not intended.
Its the same as the other 'fight twice rules' allowing you to pick an eligible unit, an additional time. You 'can choose' them twice; but you still have to meet the criteria for being able to choose them, it doesn't give you permission to ignore that.
Kcalehc wrote: So you really believe, that this could be used on a unit, nowhere near an enemy, to allow them to pile in, consolidate, pile in again and consolidate again, to move an extra 12" in the fight phase without fighting anyone?
Yeah, that's nuts, and clearly not intended.
Its the same as the other 'fight twice rules' allowing you to pick an eligible unit, an additional time. You 'can choose' them twice; but you still have to meet the criteria for being able to choose them, it doesn't give you permission to ignore that.
"Clearly not intended" is the parenthetical nickname of this forum. Puppet is pointing out a crazy loophole on the passion act of faith that is unintentionally letting you fight twice after falling back, or moving a unit in the middle of no where 12". That's why we're discussing it. It's something that is arguable and unclear and needs addressed in a FAQ.
Kcalehc wrote: So you really believe, that this could be used on a unit, nowhere near an enemy, to allow them to pile in, consolidate, pile in again and consolidate again, to move an extra 12" in the fight phase without fighting anyone?
Yeah, that's nuts, and clearly not intended.
Its the same as the other 'fight twice rules' allowing you to pick an eligible unit, an additional time. You 'can choose' them twice; but you still have to meet the criteria for being able to choose them, it doesn't give you permission to ignore that.
"Clearly not intended" is the parenthetical nickname of this forum. Puppet is pointing out a crazy loophole on the passion act of faith that is unintentionally letting you fight twice after falling back, or moving a unit in the middle of no where 12". That's why we're discussing it. It's something that is arguable and unclear and needs addressed in a FAQ.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."
edited for intent.
Pointless thing to say. This is You Make The Call - the entire forum is for asking how you would play it.
If you want to argue strict RAW and avoid anyone saying HYWPI, you’re in the wrong forum.
It's been stated before, but once again Specific rules trumps General rules.
The pre-requisite to be chosen in the BRB are to have charged or be within an inch.
The pre-requisite in the codex to be chosen in the codex is to have passed the devotion test.
Seems fairly straightforward.
Another argument made here is that this is clearly not the intent of the rule and to this I say: Why not?
Yes, it would be a great mobility boost to sisters. A foot list, as they seem to be going to right now with the AoF system, is extremely slow and this would benefit them. Furthermore you only get that bonus on a 5+ with a potential reroll (4+ if Ebon Chalice) so not something you can effectively build a strategy around.
It's also something that your opponent can easily play to his advantage. Flanking units would force you to move your units in their general direction since consolidate and pile-in need to be done towards the closest enemy model to some degree. A clever deep strike would even force you back into your own deployment zone if you're not careful.
It has it's advantagesfor sure, but also its drawbacks and seems to be fine for a game. I will inform my opponent, test it with him and see how it works out.
The fight phase follows the charge phase. So you charge are successful , now at the start of the fight phase you use the AOF (act of Faith) on a unit engaged to fight this turn. Easy peasy. Thats it.
also maybe put the exact wording of the Stratagem so we can make a better call.
Id say though for argument sake that if you don't meet the requirement to fight this turn a unit chosen must be one that is locked into combat following the charge phase.
Eihnlazer wrote: Its apparent to anyone that trying this is an abuse of the rules set and it's not intended to work like that. There is room to argue the case of course, but it's not kosher and it will not hold up at any major event so don't get your Hope's up.
"This is YMDC. This thread was made specifically to talk about RAW, not HYWPI. Also, simply saying 'this is an abuse' doesn't really further the discussion."
edited for intent.
Pointless thing to say. This is You Make The Call - the entire forum is for asking how you would play it.
If you want to argue strict RAW and avoid anyone saying HYWPI, you’re in the wrong forum.
Disagree. This is absolutely RAW and rules should be argued from that standpoint.
Obviously, I want to know how people would play it. However I want it from a standpoint where they can back their arguments with facts based on the rules and not simply how they think it should be
Otherwise we might as well simply not have a discussion. Play it how you want and I will do the same.
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Lungpickle wrote: The fight phase follows the charge phase. So you charge are successful , now at the start of the fight phase you use the AOF (act of Faith) on a unit engaged to fight this turn. Easy peasy. Thats it.
also maybe put the exact wording of the Stratagem so we can make a better call.
Id say though for argument sake that if you don't meet the requirement to fight this turn a unit chosen must be one that is locked into combat following the charge phase.
Agreed, the fight phase follow the charge phase. Thats the end of it however. Neither of these phases are really dependent on each other.
If I said the Charge phase follows the Shooting phase so if I unit did not shoot, it cannot charge, it would not really make sense right?
Charging is one of the base pre-requisite to being able to fight in the Fight phase. If you did not charge, but have a unit within 1 inch of an enemy, you are fulfilling another requisite to be chosen to fight.
If a codex grants you another way to chose a unit, independent from those two pre-requisite, I do not see why we would not use it.
Voldrak wrote: Disagree. This is absolutely RAW and rules should be argued from that standpoint.
Obviously, I want to know how people would play it. However I want it from a standpoint where they can back their arguments with facts based on the rules and not simply how they think it should be
Otherwise we might as well simply not have a discussion. Play it how you want and I will do the same.
The rules can be argued from any standpoint, including one that says ‘I think this is a mistake and I would play it X way’. If the majority think it’s clearly a mistake, then that’s useful to know regardless of what the RAW is, because that’s how it will actually be played.
Hence the title - You Make The Call, not What Do The Rules Say?
We’ve all got countless examples of RAW that break the game. People ignore those, and play the game anyway. Remember when only things with eyes could shoot?
We get it, we just don't agree that it allows you to skip anything since it doesn't say so, where "you" think it allows you to since it doesn't repeat the fight rules.
It doesn't need to repeat the fight rules. They actually REMOVED rules in the redesign to enable this.
It's like if we had an AoF "if successful then the unit can shoot twice", we would be able to shoot without being in range or line of sight, just because it didn't say we needed to check these.
Not the same. The equivalent would be that if the unit fell back, and then that AoF said "if successul then the unit can shoot twice", and it would then ignore that falling back generally makes it unable to shoot.
If we want to read stuff in a weird way and since you decide to ignore what "chose" means in this context despite the BRB having a paragraph dedicated to it, what does fight means ? Why do you suddenly remember the rules there and follow them to pile in and consolidate when in plain english, "fight" doesn't mean moving ?
Because you're in the fight phase, and there are rules. The ability is only circumventing two specific lines of the Fight phase's process: eligibility to be chosen ("this unit can be chosen") and the number of times it can be chosen ("twice").
We get it, we just don't agree that it allows you to skip anything since it doesn't say so, where "you" think it allows you to since it doesn't repeat the fight rules.
It doesn't need to repeat the fight rules. They actually REMOVED rules in the redesign to enable this.
It's like if we had an AoF "if successful then the unit can shoot twice", we would be able to shoot without being in range or line of sight, just because it didn't say we needed to check these.
Not the same. The equivalent would be that if the unit fell back, and then that AoF said "if successul then the unit can shoot twice", and it would then ignore that falling back generally makes it unable to shoot.
If we want to read stuff in a weird way and since you decide to ignore what "chose" means in this context despite the BRB having a paragraph dedicated to it, what does fight means ? Why do you suddenly remember the rules there and follow them to pile in and consolidate when in plain english, "fight" doesn't mean moving ?
Because you're in the fight phase, and there are rules. The ability is only circumventing two specific lines of the Fight phase's process: eligibility to be chosen ("this unit can be chosen") and the number of times it can be chosen ("twice").
- You had more rule before the redesign because there is no rule to manage close combat outside of the combat phase and the old AoF took place at the start of the turn. The new AoF is considerably different and you chose to interpret it one way, because it's lacking the close combat rules telling you what "chose" means. Which are in the rulebook, in the fight phase chapter, which is the phase in which you're using the new AoF.
- I disagree, you chose to follow some rules but not the others, the fight phase is cut in multiple smaller phase, one is "chose one unit" and you skip this one because ... reasons. So why not skip shooting rules too, it's written I can shot, so I do. Skipping the choosing process in close combat is exactly the same as skipping range and LOS, both are part of what allows you to make the action in the first place. So if in one rule "i can" because they used that verb, I "can" in the other too. Edit : Actually, you're right so forget what I just said and it's even funnier than I first thought. Regarding the selection process for shooting, the rule book says "In your Shooting phase you CAN SHOOT with models armed with ranged weapons [...] You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn,or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit", these are the full conditions. So if a rule said "you can chose this unit to shoot with twice", with this logic I wouldn't even need ranged weapons, I guess.
- Yes, there are rules. Where "chose" means something specific and they took the time to explain it. What the AoF circumvents is the part of this rule where it says "can be chosen once" because you're in the fight phase, again governed by rules, in which you chose units to fight with first. So when they say "the unit can be chosen twice", the only single thing that the AoF overrides from this phase's rules, is the number of time the unit can be selected. There is no clue in the AoF telling you that you can forget about the choosing process outside of how you decide to interpret the meaning of "can chose" in that sentence. Plain english, or in the context of the rules.
So yeah, sure, in plain english you "can" fight twice, right now. You then... do what ? Do both "fights" on the spot, charging units first, alternate ? Why, how ? It's not in the AoF rules and it's part of the rule you're skipping. You maybe can fight even 3 times, since you fight twice because of the AoF and decided it's treated outside of the context of the rules, so you're still able to fight by the standard rules after that, no ?
Well as these are technically 'Beta' rules for the SoB, and this one is clearly broken, it needs some rewording to have it make sense.
Probably just adding "Select a unit within 1" of an enemy unit" in there somewhere, or "Select a unit that charged in the charge phase" to force the selection to a unit that is in combat already.
Rather than it being used as silly extra move shenanigans.
Kcalehc wrote: Well as these are technically 'Beta' rules for the SoB, and this one is clearly broken, it needs some rewording to have it make sense.
Probably just adding "Select a unit within 1" of an enemy unit" in there somewhere, or "Select a unit that charged in the charge phase" to force the selection to a unit that is in combat already.
Rather than it being used as silly extra move shenanigans.
It's not "broken", it's just really good: deepstrike a unit 9" out, attempt to charge it and fail because Sisters have no way to decrease charge distances or secure charges so they fail 75% of the time, then attempt the AoF and fail 66% of the time, and if it goes off, move 6" towards the enemy, then go to second fight and move them 3" putting them into combat and being able to swing at the target because they declared charge.
Or outside of combat, move 12" TOWARDS the closest enemy unit, after you've already shot and charged, so this movement doesn't combo into anything besides possibly getting to swing with it (aka- doing what the AoF is supposed to enable).
Vessel of the Emperor makes it broken, but that's the problem of that specific stratagem: that any good AoF becomes gamebreaking when splashed onto 20 units.
I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor removed, and the other AoF made competitive again, than keep that gakking stratagem and have another AoF rendered so useless that it's not worth the clock time spent rolling the dice and explaining the effect.
It's not "broken", it's just really good: deepstrike a unit 9" out, attempt to charge it and fail because Sisters have no way to decrease charge distances or secure charges so they fail 75% of the time, then attempt the AoF and fail 66% of the time, and if it goes off, move 6" towards the enemy, then go to second fight and move them 3" putting them into combat and being able to swing at the target because they declared charge.
Or outside of combat, move 12" TOWARDS the closest enemy unit, after you've already shot and charged, so this movement doesn't combo into anything besides possibly getting to swing with it (aka- doing what the AoF is supposed to enable).
Except that is not how it works. You can not use it if you can not choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.
Except that is not how it works. You can not use it if you can not choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
Use this Act of Faith at the start of your Fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the selected unit can be chosen to fight
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the unit can be chosen to fight
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
Use this Act of Faith at the start of your Fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
Except that is not how it works. You can not use it if you can not choose the unit to fight in the fight phase.
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
Use this Act of Faith at the start of your Fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the selected unit can be chosen to fight
The Passion - Act of Faith wrote:
the unit can be chosen to fight
You made no actual point there... "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Means exactly what it says.
You can choose the unit to fight twice. Can be chosen does not over-ride the section of eligible units. you still have to be eligible for them to fight in the first place though because nothing over-rides the restrictions of a unit being eligible to be chosen...
If you can post anything that says that they have permission to be selected, while ignoring the rules for unit selection, please post it. We need to see a citation that over-rides the roles for section of an eligible unit. However, those rules do not exist, so your argument is not correct and never will be without a FAQ or Errata update in the future.
You made no actual point there... "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Means exactly what it says.
You can choose the unit to fight twice. Can be chosen does not over-ride the section of eligible units. you still have to be eligible for them to fight in the first place though because nothing over-rides the restrictions of a unit being eligible to be chosen...
Go back to your BRB. "Eligibility to fight" is actually a process written as "This unit can be chosen to fight" with X, Y and Z clarifications behind it. The Passion uses the exact same wording as the BRB for declaring that a unit is eligible to fight, except it does not have the additional requirements following the part saying that you can choose the unit.
It's important to note that The Passion was previously worded in a very different way before the Beta Codex, where it did have selection requirements, and it did say "you may fight as if it was the fight phase" (so it did not circumvent any of the fight rules except timing).
Those were all removed, and instead they reworded it to use the exact same Can Be Chosen wording for fight phase selection of the BRB, minus the "must be within an inch of an enemy model, have charged, or performed a heroic intervention" part.
You made no actual point there... "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Means exactly what it says.
You can choose the unit to fight twice. Can be chosen does not over-ride the section of eligible units. you still have to be eligible for them to fight in the first place though because nothing over-rides the restrictions of a unit being eligible to be chosen...
Go back to your BRB. "Eligibility to fight" is actually a process written as "This unit can be chosen to fight" with X, Y and Z clarifications behind it. The Passion uses the exact same wording as the BRB for declaring that a unit is eligible to fight, except it does not have the additional requirements following the part saying that you can choose the unit.
Because the BRB has the restrictions, no need to repeat them.
For The Passion to over-ride the restrictions, it would need to say that it does. Since it does not, then it does not over-ride the restrictions.
It's important to note that The Passion was previously worded in a very different way before the Beta Codex, where it did have selection requirements, and it did say "you may fight as if it was the fight phase" (so it did not circumvent any of the fight rules except timing).
Those were all removed, ...
What the previous rule said has no bearing on the current rules. It is not important at all.
...and instead they reworded it to use the exact same Can Be Chosen wording for fight phase selection of the BRB, minus the "must be within an inch of an enemy model, have charged, or performed a heroic intervention" part.
Again, the BRB has the restrictions, no need to repeat them.
If you have a rule stating that you can over-ride the restrictions in the BRB please post them, but so far you have not been able to find anything that. "it doesn't say I can't" is not how the rules work. You need permission to ignore the given restrictions.
I have to say I won't play it like this, but I'll eagerly await the FAQ/Errata to clarify the intent. From purely RAW I see no issue with the unit being activated two times even if it didn't successfully charge or isn't within 1'', because basically a new "alternative condition" was created which is "pass this test". And from a less rules based PoV I also don't really see an issue with this when there are other units that can be activated two or even three times, not requiring you to have an enemy unit within 1. Khorne Berserkers get to faceroll an Infantry squad and then move 9 more inches straight into the gunline, without any overwatch, for free,because GW added an exception for units that charged to the core rules. And if that wasn't enough you could extend that range by another 6 inches for a couple CP.
*edit* and keep in mind that if you didn't charge, you're not attacking at priority. And you're stuck at S3 even as bloody rose, and losing the extra attack too
For The Passion to over-ride the restrictions, it would need to say that it does. Since it does not, then it does not over-ride the restrictions.
Do you understand that your logic would render Soulburst, most extra-action abilities like Honour the Chapter/Get Stuck in Ladz, and nearly any out-of-phase action as invalid and have it do nothing, because those abilities do not specifically exclaim every rule they have to invalidate in order to function?
Like if I kill your Smashcaptain, can you Only In Death and get to fight? Well, you're not removing a slain model, interrupting an activation, fighting out of activation order, likely fighting for your second time that turn, etc..
But does it work? Of course it does, because you have a supplemental rule that explicitly says "You can do X" so you get to do X, even if it means you break every single rule in the BRB to do so.
So if you have an ability that says, You can do X, then You can do X.
For The Passion to over-ride the restrictions, it would need to say that it does. Since it does not, then it does not over-ride the restrictions.
Do you understand that your logic would render Soulburst, most extra-action abilities like Honour the Chapter/Get Stuck in Ladz, and nearly any out-of-phase action as invalid and have it do nothing, because those abilities do not specifically exclaim every rule they have to invalidate in order to function?
It would not but that is off topic, so I will not go into it.
Like if I kill your Smashcaptain, can you Only In Death and get to fight? Well, you're not removing a slain model, interrupting an activation, fighting out of activation order, likely fighting for your second time that turn, etc..
But does it work? Of course it does, because you have a supplemental rule that explicitly says "You can do X" so you get to do X, even if it means you break every single rule in the BRB to do so.
That has specifics that say before you remove the model it gets to fight, but that is also off topic, so I will not go into it.
So if you have an ability that says, You can do X, then You can do X.
Yes, however...
You need to follow the other rules that it does not over-ride. The Passion does not over-ride the restrictions because it does not say that you an ignore the choose a unit restrictions.
Can be chosen twice does not = ignoring the rules for the fight phase. Since it does not say to ignore them, they are still very much in place.
Also can be chosen twice does not = Must be chosen. If it said must be chosen you might have had a case, but it doesn't, so your argument is not correct.
Can be chosen twice does not = ignoring the rules for the fight phase. Since it does not say to ignore them, they are still very much in place.
Also can be chosen twice does not = Must be chosen. If it said must be chosen you might have had a case, but it doesn't, so your argument is not correct.
If a unit CAN be chosen during the Fight phase, then it MUST be chosen during the Fight phase.
You'll see in the sidebar of the Fight phase in the BRB where it explains this: that you can't elect to pass if a unit can be chosen, can't elect to choose the unit at a different time/phase, and the fight phase does not end until all eligible units have been chosen.
So if it helps you, you can assume the wording of The Passion to be, "this unit MUST be chosen to fight twice in this phase."
alextroy wrote: I think the 2 and half pages of discussion makes this assertion debatable. Ultimately, it will be up to clarify their intent.
To be fair, the only thing that seems to be being debated is whether or not "can" means "can" because the end result is of it meaning what it says is easily exploitable (and thus game-breaking because VotE), therefore RAI the ability needs to have been worded wrong or the Sisters become an unstoppable zerg rush, not that RAW the wording of the ability is actually unclear.
alextroy wrote: I think the 2 and half pages of discussion makes this assertion debatable. Ultimately, it will be up to clarify their intent.
To be fair, the only thing that seems to be being debated is whether or not "can" means "can" because the end result is of it meaning what it says is easily exploitable (and thus game-breaking because VotE), therefore RAI the ability needs to have been worded wrong or the Sisters become an unstoppable zerg rush, not that RAW the wording of the ability is actually unclear.
Except that thats not really the case (being a game breaking unstoppable zerg rush) You're not going to be on priority speed, so you'll be going back and forth with your opponent. You won't get the bloody roses benefits at all. It's not as powerful as it sounds right of the bat, even though it IS a decent option. It's not like overwatch commonly murders all your squads, especially if you just charge with a transport first...
nekooni wrote: Except that thats not really the case (being a game breaking unstoppable zerg rush) You're not going to be on priority speed, so you'll be going back and forth with your opponent. You won't get the bloody roses benefits at all. It's not as powerful as it sounds right of the bat, even though it IS a decent option. It's not like overwatch commonly murders all your squads, especially if you just charge with a transport first...
The more broken parts are: - 12" move for your entire blob/bubble, regardless of enemy position, in the assault phase. No reduction in fire power or negatives to shooting that turn. - Assault after fallback, rapid firing, etc, so on. Since you're not charging, you don't have to worry about the charge restrictions. - Surround units quickly and easily (like horms, etc) with your multiple pile in and consolidates.
The charging and fighting twice part is nice, but the other implied shenanigans of not having to qualify for charging are the big part.
Can be chosen twice does not = ignoring the rules for the fight phase. Since it does not say to ignore them, they are still very much in place.
Also can be chosen twice does not = Must be chosen. If it said must be chosen you might have had a case, but it doesn't, so your argument is not correct.
If a unit CAN be chosen during the Fight phase, then it MUST be chosen during the Fight phase.
Incorrect, because every unit on the table can be chosen for the fight phase. but you have restrictions you have to follow...
You'll see in the sidebar of the Fight phase in the BRB where it explains this: that you can't elect to pass if a unit can be chosen, can't elect to choose the unit at a different time/phase, and the fight phase does not end until all eligible units have been chosen.
So if it helps you, you can assume the wording of The Passion to be, "this unit MUST be chosen to fight twice in this phase."
And it has restrictions that your argument is ignoring for no reason. Do not ignore rules.
Fragile wrote: BRB 182 " No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase."
That is the only restriction this act of Faith overrules. Everything still applies.
Exactly this. All other rules apply. The Passion only over-rides the restriction of only being able to be chosen once.
Bottom line is you can not choose a unit that is not within one inch of an enemy model. The Passion does not over-ride this restriction so PuppetSoul, your argument is not correct.
DeathReaper wrote: Incorrect, because every unit on the table can be chosen for the fight phase. but you have restrictions you have to follow...
Wrong.
Page 182, 1. Choose Unit to Fight With. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." This is the restriction that prevents non-combat models from entering the fight queue: they cannot be chosen to fight.
What is the wording of The Passion? "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." Okay, step 1 complete: we have an ability that explicitly tells us we can chosen the unit to fight with in the fight phase, so we will choose that unit to fight with in the fight phase.
And it has restrictions that your argument is ignoring for no reason. Do not ignore rules.
Wrong.
We have an ability that explicitly tells us that we can choose the unit. Therefore, we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways.
Exactly this. All other rules apply. The Passion only over-rides the restriction of only being able to be chosen once.
Wrong.
The Passion's ability explicitly states that you can choose to fight with it twice in that phase.
So you can choose to fight with it the first time, because The Passion says you can do it twice.
And then you can choose to fight with it in a following activation for a second time, because The Passion says you can do it twice.
If it said "can fight an additional time" instead, then it would have to respect the BRB's rules regarding being able to be chosen to fight with for the first fight, BUT NOT THE SECOND, because the ability would explicitly put it into the fight queue for the second fight.
The Passion explicitly puts the unit into the fight queue TWICE, because it uses the phrase "can be chosen to fight with", which enables both the first and second "choose a unit to fight with" regardless of whether or not it meets the conditions of the BRB to be chosen: The Passion says you can choose it, and Specific trumps General.
Looking at page 182, there is a Charge Phase, followed by the Fight Phase. The Passion only works in the Fight Phase. So any units that did not declare charges, the Passion will not work.
You could declare charges with all the units in question, even if they failed, all they would get from the Passion is a 3' pile in. That about it.
Since pg 182 says, "Any unit that charged or has a model within 1".."
But all of these units would be subject to Overwatch.
So no matter if the are "chosen to fight twice" they will never get the loophole move 12" Since CHARGE and FIGHT are separate phases
zaahul wrote: Looking at page 182, there is a Charge Phase, followed by the Fight Phase. The Passion only works in the Fight Phase. So any units that did not declare charges, the Passion will not work.
You could declare charges with all the units in question, even if they failed, all they would get from the Passion is a 3' pile in. That about it.
Since pg 182 says, "Any unit that charged or has a model within 1".."
But all of these units would be subject to Overwatch.
So no matter if the are "chosen to fight twice" they will never get the loophole move 12" Since CHARGE and FIGHT are separate phases
That makes no sense at all. A unit could have been charged by the enemy in the previous turn, you're saying that it wouldn't be eligible for the passion since it hasn't charged and hasn't been subject to overwatch?
Why would units only get a pile in but no consolidation?
And did you really just cut the quote from the BRB off before the word "chosen", which is the main reason why people think it's possible to choose any unit for the passion? Nice work.
DeathReaper wrote: Incorrect, because every unit on the table can be chosen for the fight phase. but you have restrictions you have to follow...
Wrong.
Page 182, 1. Choose Unit to Fight With. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." This is the restriction that prevents non-combat models from entering the fight queue: they cannot be chosen to fight.
What is the wording of The Passion? "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." Okay, step 1 complete: we have an ability that explicitly tells us we can chosen the unit to fight with in the fight phase, so we will choose that unit to fight with in the fight phase.
And it has restrictions that your argument is ignoring for no reason. Do not ignore rules.
Wrong.
We have an ability that explicitly tells us that we can choose the unit. Therefore, we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways.
Exactly this. All other rules apply. The Passion only over-rides the restriction of only being able to be chosen once.
Wrong.
The Passion's ability explicitly states that you can choose to fight with it twice in that phase.
So you can choose to fight with it the first time, because The Passion says you can do it twice.
And then you can choose to fight with it in a following activation for a second time, because The Passion says you can do it twice.
If it said "can fight an additional time" instead, then it would have to respect the BRB's rules regarding being able to be chosen to fight with for the first fight, BUT NOT THE SECOND, because the ability would explicitly put it into the fight queue for the second fight.
The Passion explicitly puts the unit into the fight queue TWICE, because it uses the phrase "can be chosen to fight with", which enables both the first and second "choose a unit to fight with" regardless of whether or not it meets the conditions of the BRB to be chosen: The Passion says you can choose it, and Specific trumps General.
1) Not wrong. Because "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." with the caveat that you can only select a given unit once. The Passion "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." means that you can choose them twice, and nothing over-rides the first clause that states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit" Has a unit that is under the effects of The Passion charged or are they within 1" of an enemy unit? if so you can choose them twice instead of once... Do not ignore the rules.
2) Not wrong. "we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways. " Citation needed. You need to follow all the rules. The passion does not over-ride "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." Do not ignore the rules.
3) Not wrong. That is not how English works... The Passion's ability explicitly states that you can choose to fight with it twice in that phase, but there is nothing that says the other fight phase rules does not apply. Do not ignore the rules.
1) Not wrong. Because "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." with the caveat that you can only select a given unit once. The Passion "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." means that you can choose them twice, and nothing over-rides the first clause that states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit" Has a unit that is under the effects of The Passion charged or are they within 1" of an enemy unit? if so you can choose them twice instead of once... Do not ignore the rules.
Does it say "instead of once"? No, no it does not. It explicitly says that if you pass this dice roll, you can have two of this thing. So can you have one of that thing? Yes, yes you can.
2) Not wrong. "we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways. " Citation needed. You need to follow all the rules. The passion does not over-ride "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." Do not ignore the rules.
3) Not wrong. That is not how English works... The Passion's ability explicitly states that the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase, but there is nothing that says the other fight phase rules does not apply. Do not ignore the rules.
I think we're on like ten underlines already. I mockingly implied that it might take seventeen for some people to understand that it does what it says it does.
1) Not wrong. Because "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." with the caveat that you can only select a given unit once. The Passion "This unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase." means that you can choose them twice, and nothing over-rides the first clause that states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit" Has a unit that is under the effects of The Passion charged or are they within 1" of an enemy unit? if so you can choose them twice instead of once... Do not ignore the rules.
Does it say "instead of once"? No, no it does not. It explicitly says that if you pass this dice roll, you can have two of this thing. So can you have one of that thing? Yes, yes you can.
Yes you can have two, when normal unis can only have one...
So in a way it does say instead of once in a way. You can have one of that thing, IF you meet the other restrictions. there is nothing stating that you CAN ignore the restrictions, so you can not.
2) Not wrong. "we do not need to meet the requirements of the BRB to chose the unit: our ability tells us that we can do it anyways. " Citation needed. You need to follow all the rules. The passion does not over-ride "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase." Do not ignore the rules.
Citation:
You cited nothing. Not surprising since there is nothing to over-ride the two other restrictions on when units can be chosen to fight.
3) Not wrong. That is not how English works... The Passion's ability explicitly states that the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase, but there is nothing that says the other fight phase rules does not apply. Do not ignore the rules.
I think we're on like ten underlines already. I mockingly implied that it might take seventeen for some people to understand that it does what it says it does.
That does not say what you think it does. "the selected unit can be chosen to fight" does not ignore the other two restrictions on selecting a unit to fight.
The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for fighting. So you can not ignore these rules. you have nothing to over-ride the Charge order and unit selection for fighting. "The Passion" rules only over-ride the only fight once rules. it does not over-ride anything else.
They do give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once limit
"Can" does not always mean you are allowed. A car typically has a speedometer that goes above 100mph.
That means the car "can" go 100mph, doesn't mean you are allowed to.
*edit to add further*
A unit "can" be chosen 2x
-implied- if it was allowed to be chosen to start with
A car "can go above 100mph
-implied- if you are on a road where the speed limit permits it.
kaotkbliss wrote: "Can" does not always mean you are allowed. A car typically has a speedometer that goes above 100mph.
That means the car "can" go 100mph, doesn't mean you are allowed to.
*edit to add further*
A unit "can" be chosen 2x
-implied- if it was allowed to be chosen to start with
A car "can go above 100mph
-implied- if you are on a road where the speed limit permits it.
You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.
Does my car need a siren to go fast?
Spoiler:
Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit
DeathReaper wrote: Yes you can have two, when normal unis can only have one...
And "This unit can be selected to fight in this phase", when normal unis "This unit can be selected to fight if it made a charge move or is within 1" of an enemy unit".
there is nothing stating that you CAN ignore the restrictions, so you can not.
There is nothing expressed or implied by the way that ability is written that suggests it gives a rat's about the BRB selection restrictions for choosing a unit. It says "You can do this because you did this." It has ALTERNATIVE conditions for allowing the unit to be chosen in the fight phase.
You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.
Does my car need a siren to go fast?
Spoiler:
Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit
People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.
You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.
Does my car need a siren to go fast?
Spoiler:
Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit
People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.
Presumably, being able to be selected more than once means you can be selected in the first place, given no other stated restrictions. (Also, for the record, The Passion has no other stated restrictions; it does not require that you can fight normally to be selected to fight.)
You cannot go fast normally.
Any car with a siren can be chosen to go fast.
Act of faith: your car can be chosen to go fast.
Does my car need a siren to go fast?
Spoiler:
Siren = has charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit
People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.
But the Passion doesn't state "more than once", it tells us that the unit can be chosen twice. Not "an additional time". Not "can fight twice".
But all of this is rather pointless. I wouldn't recommend playing it like that since i have to admit it doesn't look like that was intentional. But the only real solution to this will be an faq or errata by gw, as usual.
People are confusing what permission is being given. it's not that a unit can be selected (thus skipping all the selection rules) but that it is allowed to be selected more than once. It's the more than once that is the permission being given.
This is 100% correct.
They are giving permission to select a unit two times instead of one. That is the only permission given. It does not give permission to ignore the other two parts of the selection rules.
Anyone arguments stating otherwise are clearly ignoring the rules.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?
It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?
It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.
Well, yes, it does, actually. Because adding "instead of once" means you have to meet the criteria for being chosen in the first place, while the way the Passion is worded now doesn't.
Adding "instead of once" at the end is question begging: it assumes your conclusion is true, and that therefore adding words doesn't change the wording. But there is no reason to suspect your conclusion is true that I have been convinced by.
It says what it says. It says "a unit can be chosen to fight twice." I am not sure how that can be interpreted to mean anything else.
Can the unit be chosen to fight normally? No, it doesn't meet the conditions.
-Play The Passion-
Can the unit now be chosen to fight twice, regardless of the answer to the first question? Explicitly yes.
kaotkbliss wrote: Yep, because they immediately grow 300-foot, long arms to start bashing their enemies
It doesn't actually say they can make attacks anywhere, just that they can be chosen to fight twice.Their melee weapons are out of range. Similarly, a Demolisher Leman Russ can be chosen to fire it's main gun twice, but will not roll any dice if it is out of range.
kaotkbliss wrote: Yep, because they immediately grow 300 foot long arms to start bashing their enemies
It doesn't say immediately fight. It doesn't allow them to roll hit dice without meeting the conditions to declare a target. It doesn't cause them to fight twice without the opponent being able to activate a unit between them or interrupt (this last one is brutal).
What it does do, is put the unit into the Fight queue twice: because it now CAN be selected to fight twice ("can be selected" is how units enter the Fight queue), it now MUST be activated two separate times before that phase can end.
So if your unit didn't charge, it still swings after the charging units, but you can choose it to fight, and then your opponent chooses a unit to fight, and then you can choose it again (or a different unit, and then come back to it later; w/e).
Yes, this interaction, when splashed by The Passion, creates an extremely messy Fight queue (it would do so even if the units were required to be in combat to activate, and might actually be worse because there'd be units which "join" combat due to pile-ins or consolidations which would then be able to fight twice), which is exasperated by the stupid deathstar build-around that Sisters now requires to function.
Basically what I'm saying is that they need to get rid of Vessel of the Emperor's Will because its bad game design, and un-nerf the rest of the Acts at least a little after that because there'd be no reason to throttle them so hard.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?
It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.
Well, yes, it does, actually. Because adding "instead of once" means you have to meet the criteria for being chosen in the first place, while the way the Passion is worded now doesn't.
Incorrect. because the basic rules say that any given unit can only be chosen once. The only permission with The Passion is to over-ride that and allow them to be selected twice.
Adding "instead of once" at the end is question begging: it assumes your conclusion is true, and that therefore adding words doesn't change the wording. But there is no reason to suspect your conclusion is true that I have been convinced by.
Becausae your argument ignores the rules explanation as I have posted.
It says what it says. It says "a unit can be chosen to fight twice." I am not sure how that can be interpreted to mean anything else.
Exactly! It does not mean anything else. It can be chosen twice. Tell me what are the criteria for selecting a unit to fight with?
Can the unit be chosen to fight normally? No, it doesn't meet the conditions.
-Play The Passion-
Can the unit now be chosen to fight twice, regardless of the answer to the first question? Explicitly yes.
And your argument went off base. It now can be chosen to fight twice, but you still have no permission to over-ride the rules about charging or being within 1 inch of an enemy.
This is because it does not say something like [Regardless of them having made a charge move or being within 1 inch of an enemy model] it would need to say something like that to ignore the normal rules. it does not so it can not.
Only eligible units to choose to select during the fight phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.
blaktoof wrote: Oy eligible units to choose to select during the night phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.
At least read the rules being discussed before you "contribute". What units are eligible targets of The Passion is really obvious and not disputed at all. Except by you apparently...
blaktoof wrote: Oy eligible units to choose to select during the night phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.
At least read the rules being discussed before you "contribute". What units are eligible targets of The Passion is really obvious and not disputed at all. Except by you apparently...
If an unit is not within 1" or didn't charge it is not an eligible unit to select during the fight phase, nothing in the passion explicitly grants permission to do so.
Much like nothing in divine guidance grants explicit permission to shoot for units that may have advanced with heavy weapons.
They still need to meet the basic requirements.
The passion just let's an unit activate twice instead of once.
And divine guidance gives the unit a bonus to hit.
Neither of them have any wording stating they get to override other rules.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Does it say "instead of one" anywhere or are those words being added for no discernible reason?
It doesn't have to, because ALL units can only be selected once. The basic rules state you can only select a unit once. no need to repeat basic rules on every datasheet.
Well, yes, it does, actually. Because adding "instead of once" means you have to meet the criteria for being chosen in the first place, while the way the Passion is worded now doesn't.
Adding "instead of once" at the end is question begging: it assumes your conclusion is true, and that therefore adding words doesn't change the wording. But there is no reason to suspect your conclusion is true that I have been convinced by.
It says what it says. It says "a unit can be chosen to fight twice." I am not sure how that can be interpreted to mean anything else.
Can the unit be chosen to fight normally? No, it doesn't meet the conditions.
-Play The Passion-
Can the unit now be chosen to fight twice, regardless of the answer to the first question? Explicitly yes.
Except it cannot fight, so therefore cannot be chosen to fight. You're the one adding wording to the rules. This is much the same as the Tyranid Paroxysm vs Counter Offensive stratagem. The stratagem gives permission to interrupt, but the Paroxysm'ed unit still is not eligible. Just playing a stratagem/act of faith does not grant extra rules to overcome restrictions unless it says it can. You can play that AOF on a unit, it just cannot be chosen to fight if its not within 1" or charged that turn.
If I get The Passion off with the successful 5+ after spending the faith point on a unit at the beginning of the fight phase, I then follow the Passion's rules:
This unit may be selected to fight twice.
You tell me I cannot select it, citing a rule from the Big Rule Book.
I then inform you that specific trumps general, and the Passion is a specific rule (Codex) which trumps the general rule you are citing that prevents it from working (Big Rule Book).
Citing a general rule as a reason a specific rule ceases to function is not how a permissive rulesset works.
Furthermore, the Paroxysm example actually supports my argument, illustrating neatly how a "specific rule" (a psychic power cast by a Tyranid psyker, with both the unit and caster found exclusively in the Tyranid codex) overrides a "general rule" (a stratagem available to everyone from the main rule book).
blaktoof wrote: Oy eligible units to choose to select during the night phase are units that charged or are within 1" of the enemy. As such you can't use the passion on any units that arent one of those, charged that turn or within 1" of enemy.
At least read the rules being discussed before you "contribute". What units are eligible targets of The Passion is really obvious and not disputed at all. Except by you apparently...
And me.
Based on what rule do you think it's not allowed to use The Passion on a retributor squad in the back field? Mind you - whether or not it DOES something for that unit is disputed, sure. But if I want to use it on eg a character that's not in combat to then vessel it out to nearby units that are in combat, why would that not be allowed?
Blacktoof claimed I could not do that if the character isn't eligible to fight.
It says, in one sentence, I may choose this unit to fight with twice.
In order to prevent me from choosing that unit, you either need a rule equally specific, or *more* specific. Because general cannot override specific and The Passion is fairly clear in its wording. The unit can be chosen. Twice, even.
It says, in one sentence, I may choose this unit to fight with twice.
In order to prevent me from choosing that unit, you either need a rule equally specific, or *more* specific. Because general cannot override specific and The Passion is fairly clear in its wording. The unit can be chosen. Twice, even.
You can choose that unit. If you do, nothing happens, since it cannot Fight that phase.
Your rule is more specific than the regular rule that states "this unit can be chosen once to fight each fight phase" which all units have by default in the BRB. Anything more than that interpretation is you adding rules.
You can choose that unit. If you do, nothing happens, since it cannot Fight that phase.
The only thing in the BRB that allows units to Fight in the Fight phase is whether or not the unit can be chosen. The BRB has some qualifiers set up for when you can choose a unit (once per phase; within an inch or charged), but there are no other checks which prevent a unit from fighting once it is chosen.
The Passion gives you the ability to choose the unit.
So you ignore that the BRB says you shouldn't be able to chose the unit, because you have rules that supercede the BRB according to GW's flow chart that says that "you can choose the selected unit if you passed this test". It also has the word twice in there, which tells you how many times you're allowed to do it; otherwise you would be able to chose it an infinite number of times, because codex stratagem rules overrule the BRB and "you can chose this unit" would override "but only once" of the BRB; this is why Only in Death, Honour and Glory, Get Stuck in Ladz, etc. allow you to fight a second time, despite not being required to say that you can do so even if you've already fought with that unit this phase.
You can choose that unit. If you do, nothing happens, since it cannot Fight that phase.
The only thing in the BRB that allows units to Fight in the Fight phase is whether or not the unit can be chosen. The BRB has some qualifiers set up for when you can choose a unit (once per phase; within an inch or charged), but there are no other checks which prevent a unit from fighting once it is chosen.
The Passion gives you the ability to choose the unit.
So you ignore that the BRB says you shouldn't be able to chose the unit, because you have rules that supercede the BRB according to GW's flow chart that says that "you can choose the selected unit if you passed this test". It also has the word twice in there, which tells you how many times you're allowed to do it; otherwise you would be able to chose it an infinite number of times, because codex stratagem rules overrule the BRB and "you can chose this unit" would override "but only once" of the BRB; this is why Only in Death, Honour and Glory, Get Stuck in Ladz, etc. allow you to fight a second time, despite not being required to say that you can do so even if you've already fought with that unit this phase.
Your entire argument is based on the "chosen" part of the rule. That is not what the rule is focused on. The exception the AOF grants, is being chosen TWICE. All the other rules apply.
Your entire argument is based on the "chosen" part of the rule. That is not what the rule is focused on. The exception the AOF grants, is being chosen TWICE. All the other rules apply.
Can you prove the assertion that the "chosen" part of the rule we aren't supposed to focus on somehow doesn't matter?
The rule says what it says. There's no "focusing on the wrong part" - you either follow the rules or you don't. You can't just redact the word "chosen" because in your opinion that isn't the focus.
It is like saying I can shoot and still use smoke launchers, because the "can not shoot" isn't the part you focus on - that's the -1 to hit. You see how stupid that sounds?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hypothetical question:
If The Passion just said "If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with in that phase." would the rule do anything at all?
If The Passion just said "If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with in that phase." would the rule do anything at all?
No, because the base rules already say you can choose a unit in the fight phase...
A rule stating a unit "Can" be chosen to fight twice hinges on them being eligible to be chosen in the first place. If it meant for them to be allowed to over-ride the basic rules about who you can choose it would say so. but since it does not, you have to follow the basic rules.
"the selected unit can be chosen to fight" does not ignore the other two restrictions on selecting a unit to fight. What are the criteria for selecting/choosing a unit to fight with in the fight phase? A: The unit needs to have charged or be within one inch of an enemy model. (There is nothing to over-ride this restriction in The Passion's rules).
The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for the fight phase. Therefore you can not ignore those rules. There is nothing over-riding the Charge order and unit selection for the fight phase. "The Passion" rules only over-ride the only fight once rules. They do not over-ride anything else. They only give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once restriction, and The Passion says you can fight twice. When normally a unit can only be chosen to fight once.
If The Passion just said "If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with in that phase." would the rule do anything at all?
No, because the base rules already say you can choose a unit in the fight phase...
A rule stating a unit "Can" be chosen to fight twice hinges on them being eligible to be chosen in the first place. If it meant for them to be allowed to over-ride the basic rules about who you can choose it would say so. but since it does not, you have to follow the basic rules.
"the selected unit can be chosen to fight" does not ignore the other two restrictions on selecting a unit to fight. What are the criteria for selecting/choosing a unit to fight with in the fight phase? A: The unit needs to have charged or be within one inch of an enemy model. (There is nothing to over-ride this restriction in The Passion's rules).
The rules do not say to ignore Charge order, unit selection for the fight phase. Therefore you can not ignore those rules. There is nothing over-riding the Charge order and unit selection for the fight phase. "The Passion" rules only over-ride the only fight once rules. They do not over-ride anything else. They only give you guidance on how to deal with the fight once restriction, and The Passion says you can fight twice. When normally a unit can only be chosen to fight once.
Wait, so you're honestly arguing that The Passion overrides no restrictions at all on whether or not the unit can be selected, despite explicitly saying the unit can be selected and being a more specific rule than anything you've cited there?
K then. I understand where the difficulty is, I think.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait, so you're honestly arguing that The Passion overrides no restrictions at all on whether or not the unit can be selected, despite explicitly saying the unit can be selected and being a more specific rule than anything you've cited there?
K then. I understand where the difficulty is, I think.
It absolutely overrides a restriction. That restriction is that the unit was already chosen to fight once. Just like the rule says. Every other unit that fought once cannot be selected again, but the AOF unit can...
Wait, so you're honestly arguing that The Passion overrides no restrictions at all on whether or not the unit can be selected, despite explicitly saying the unit can be selected and being a more specific rule than anything you've cited there?
K then. I understand where the difficulty is, I think.
No. You clearly do not understand where the difficulty is. The Passion is "explicitly saying the unit can be selected [twice]". Tiny but important detail that your leaving out.
I am saying that The Passion ONLY over--rides the restriction on being able to be selected once. Actually I am not saying that, the RaW does.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
1) Can only be chosen once. "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase"
And
2) A unit needs to have charged or be withing 1" of an enemy to be chosen. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. "
No. You clearly do not understand where the difficulty is. The Passion is "explicitly saying the unit can be selected [twice]". Tiny but important detail that your leaving out.
I am saying that The Passion ONLY over--rides the restriction on being able to be selected once. Actually I am not saying that, the RaW does.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
1) Can only be chosen once. "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase"
And
2) A unit needs to have charged or be withing 1" of an enemy to be chosen. "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. "
The Passion over-rides #1, but not #2.
Looks like you're struggling with the word Twice, and how adverbs work.
Twice is an adverb. It tells you the number of times the thing occurs. What is the thing? "You can choose this unit to fight in the fight phase."
So the word Twice can be replaced with a second instance of the action occurring followed by the word again:
"You can choose this unit to fight in this phase, and you can choose this unit to fight in this phase again."
Does that make it clearer? The limitations for not being eligible to be chosen from the BRB would have to be reproduced in the ability in order for them to actually prevent The Passion from causing whatever unit passes the test to be able to fight twice that phase.
I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.
Your arguments ignore the rules.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...
DeathReaper wrote: I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.
Your arguments ignore the rules.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...
The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.
If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.
DeathReaper wrote: I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.
Your arguments ignore the rules.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...
The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.
That is not how that works mate. The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules...
If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.
Different wording, same result. Both units can be chosen twice if they meet the rest of the requirements.
DeathReaper wrote: I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.
Your arguments ignore the rules.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...
The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.
That is not how that works mate. The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules...
If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.
Different wording, same result. Both units can be chosen twice if they meet the rest of the requirements.
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
That's the wording from the book, and that is what is being overridden by saying "can be chosen".
No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase.
As well as this, since it says "twice".
Khorne Berserkers only override the later due to the difference in wording.
Not that I think that this is intentional, though.
DeathReaper wrote: I am not struggling with anything at all puppetsoul, your argument has grossly misunderstood this rule. Your argument has failed and you can not accept it.
Your arguments ignore the rules.
There are two rules we have to take into account.
The Passion over-rides the can only be chosen once rule, but absolutely does not over-ride the restrictions about charging or being within 1 inch...
The Passion overrides the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, by stating that the affected unit(s) can be chosen twice.
That is not how that works mate. The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules...
If you look at e.g. Khorne Berserkers: They can fight twice, which is a different wording and a different result - it doesn't override the "can be chosen" part of the BRB rules, but it does allow you to ignore the restriction on being activated only once.
Different wording, same result. Both units can be chosen twice if they meet the rest of the requirements.
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
That's the wording from the book, and that is what is being overridden by saying "can be chosen".
No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase.
As well as this, since it says "twice".
Khorne Berserkers only override the later due to the difference in wording.
Not that I think that this is intentional, though.
Did the same person write the Sisters Beta as the Chaos Codex? If so, you could assume the use of different wording was intentional.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Did the same person write the Sisters Beta as the Chaos Codex? If so, you could assume the use of different wording was intentional.
AFAIK they don't put the authors names on those things anymore, so who knows.
We'll know what GW thinks once the FAQ is up, until then any RAI is pure speculation tbh.
Experience indicates that GW does not exercise the level of consistency in rules writing to assume any differences in wording are intended to denote differences in application of the rules.
For examples, some Wound ignoring uses note both normal wounds and Mortal Wounds can be ignored while others do not. However GW notes that you can ignore Mortal Wounds even if not specifically noted.
Right. RAI, the rule probably isn't intended to allow you to fight twice despite not being within 1" of the enemy.
Unfortunately, RAW is quite clear, despite some users asserting that the adverb "twice" somehow is able to change the meaning of the verb it is modifying, "chosen"
Unit1126PLL wrote: Right. RAI, the rule probably isn't intended to allow you to fight twice despite not being within 1" of the enemy.
Unfortunately, RAW is quite clear, despite some users asserting that the adverb "twice" somehow is able to change the meaning of the verb it is modifying, "chosen"
The RAW is clear, and your arguments have ignored rules.
It does not change the meaning of "chosen" It changed the fact that you can only be chosen once. That is what the rule modifies. I makes a unit able to be "chosen" twice instead of once, that is all it does.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Right. RAI, the rule probably isn't intended to allow you to fight twice despite not being within 1" of the enemy.
Unfortunately, RAW is quite clear, despite some users asserting that the adverb "twice" somehow is able to change the meaning of the verb it is modifying, "chosen"
The RAW is clear, and your arguments have ignored rules.
It does not change the meaning of "chosen" It changed the fact that you can only be chosen once. That is what the rule modifies. I makes a unit able to be "chosen" twice instead of once, that is all it does.
Except it just makes you able to be chosen twice. Period. The sentence ends. Not "instead of once" like the other fight twice rules have. To say "instead of once" is adding both words and conditions to the rule that are not present nor even evidenced in the text.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Right. RAI, the rule probably isn't intended to allow you to fight twice despite not being within 1" of the enemy.
Unfortunately, RAW is quite clear, despite some users asserting that the adverb "twice" somehow is able to change the meaning of the verb it is modifying, "chosen"
The RAW is clear, and your arguments have ignored rules.
It does not change the meaning of "chosen" It changed the fact that you can only be chosen once. That is what the rule modifies. I makes a unit able to be "chosen" twice instead of once, that is all it does.
Except it just makes you able to be chosen twice. Period. The sentence ends. Not "instead of once" like the other fight twice rules have. To say "instead of once" is adding both words and conditions to the rule that are not present nor even evidenced in the text.
It does not need to say "instead of once" because ALL units can only be selected once... This rule over-rides that to can be selected twice. That is the only thing that The Passion overrides.
The Passion overrides the "can be chosen [but only once]" part of the BRB rules. That is it. it does not over-ride the can only be selected if they charged or are within 1 inch of an enemy. Since it does not say that it ignores the "can only be selected if they charged or are within 1 inch of an enemy" it does not over-ride that rule.
Why is it disingenuous to choose the unit when my rule tells me I can choose the unit?
Especially in a permissive rule set where the codex rule that tells me I can select the unit is a more specific rule than anything you will ever find in the BRB?
My rule tells me I can select the unit. Twice, even, though that is by no means mandatory.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Why is it disingenuous to choose the unit when my rule tells me I can choose the unit?
Because if you try to choose a unit that has not charged and is not within 1 inch of an enemy unit, you are breaking the rules.
Especially in a permissive rule set where the codex rule that tells me I can select the unit is a more specific rule than anything you will ever find in the BRB?
It is a permissive rules set, and you are allowed to choose the unit twice. but you still cant choose the unit at all if they are not eligible to be chosen because you would break rules if you try to choose a unit that has not charged and is not within 1 inch of an enemy unit...
My rule tells me I can select the unit. Twice, even, though that is by no means mandatory.
Yes, this ONLY over-rides the rule about only being able to select a unit once... this does not over-ride the rule about having to charge/be within 1 inch of an enemy unit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Why is it disingenuous to choose the unit when my rule tells me I can choose the unit?
Because if you try to choose a unit that has not charged and is not within 1 inch of an enemy unit, you are breaking the rules.
That's your interpretation. It's not disingenious to have a different interpretation.
How are you not understanding this?
How are you not understanding that we read it differently than you do, especially after this was explained in detail?
I have permission to do a thing two times.
This gives me permission to do that thing.
You're adding words and meaning to what is written in the Act of Faith and in the core rules to justify your interpretation.
I don't see why you're arguing so vehemently here, when pretty much everyone agrees this needs an FAQ, and that we shouldn't play it as "you get to activate twice, whatever the circumstances are" until that FAQ arrives.
Let's just wait for the FAQ. RAW are after all pretty pointless, because the game should be played the way it was meant to be played by the designers. Once that hits you might even get some internet points for having the right interpretation, and if that makes you feel better (and it's a FAQ entry instead of an errata) you may even claim to have been right all along.
You're adding words and meaning to what is written in the Act of Faith and in the core rules to justify your interpretation.
You too, are adding words. Does it say anything about ineligible models? Nope. Therefore you are also adding your own interpretation to include models that can't initially be chosen.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Why is it disingenuous to choose the unit when my rule tells me I can choose the unit?
Especially in a permissive rule set where the codex rule that tells me I can select the unit is a more specific rule than anything you will ever find in the BRB?
My rule tells me I can select the unit. Twice, even, though that is by no means mandatory.
Your missing the part of the permissive ruleset concept of restriction vs permission. You have three restrictions in the Fight phase to deal with, your rule only addresses one of those. Without those other permissions, those rules still apply.
Your missing the part of the permissive ruleset concept of restriction vs permission. You have three restrictions in the Fight phase to deal with, your rule only addresses one of those. Without those other permissions, those rules still apply.
There are only two, and it addresses both.
1. You can choose a unit to fight if it charged or is within 1" of an enemy unit.
The Passion sidesteps this rule with "This unit can be chosen to fight". It does not matter that the BRB does not make it eligible to fight: the ability allows it to be chosen, so we don't need the BRB to allow it to be chosen. The ability does not request that we go check with the BRB to see if choosing the unit is legal: it says explicitly that we can choose it.
2. You can only choose a unit once.
This is overruled by "Twice".
There are two instances of double-activation mechanics in the Sisters' Beta Codex, both were changed from their original forms in the Index:
Penitent Engines, whose ability says "this unit can fight twice in each fight phase, instead of only once."
and The Passion, whose ability says "this unit can be chosen to fight twice in this phase."
Penitent Engines were changed to where they do not immediately fight again regardless of whether or not they satisfy the requirements to be chosen for combat, to wording that checks for both activations.
The Passion was changed from wording that previously required to be within 1" of an enemy unit to be targeted, to wording that doesn't.
Why did they not use the Penitent Engine's wording as The Passion, and why did they remove the restrictions from it during the update?
There is no doubt in my mind that they actually intended for The Passion to work RAW.
But I do doubt that they understood the full implication of what was possible because it does.
Good lord there’s some stretching and bending going on.
“Chosen to fight twice” can’t be separated up into two separate permissions. It’s just permission to fight twice but you need to be eligible to fight in the first place.
JohnnyHell wrote: Good lord there’s some stretching and bending going on.
“Chosen to fight twice” can’t be separated up into two separate permissions. It’s just permission to fight twice but you need to be eligible to fight in the first place.
Its literally permission to be chosen twice, that's the difference to eg Berserkers
JohnnyHell wrote: Good lord there’s some stretching and bending going on.
“Chosen to fight twice” can’t be separated up into two separate permissions. It’s just permission to fight twice but you need to be eligible to fight in the first place.
Its literally permission to be chosen twice, that's the difference to eg Berserkers
Which still requires you to be eligible to fight, in order to be chosen.
Which still requires you to be eligible to fight, in order to be chosen.
Again, the BRB determines eligibility to fight with the phrase "can be chosen". It does not narrow down from everyone starting as being eligible to be chosen, and then falling through a series of limiters like Kerplunk. Everyone starts as ineligible, and then units become eligible because they meet the requirements of the BRB's "can be chosen".
The Passion also grants the targeted unit "can be chosen", thus making the unit eligible to fight because you don't need to meet the BRB "can be chosen" eligibility requirements anymore: The Passion has already made it eligible.
JohnnyHell wrote: Good lord there’s some stretching and bending going on.
“Chosen to fight twice” can’t be separated up into two separate permissions. It’s just permission to fight twice but you need to be eligible to fight in the first place.
Its literally permission to be chosen twice, that's the difference to eg Berserkers
Which still requires you to be eligible to fight, in order to be chosen.
Where in "The Passion" (or a rule more specific than a single Act of Faith in a single Acts of Faith system in a single army) does it say you have to be eligible to fight to be chosen?
Because the Passion gives me permission to choose, inherently overriding any restrictions that are less specific (which is what happens when a specific permission comes into conflict with a general restriction in a permissive rulesset).
Where in "The Passion" (or a rule more specific than a single Act of Faith in a single Acts of Faith system in a single army) does it say you have to be eligible to fight to be chosen?
The basic rules say that and it is not over-ridden by anything in The Passion...
Because the Passion gives me permission to choose, inherently overriding any restrictions that are less specific (which is what happens when a specific permission comes into conflict with a general restriction in a permissive rulesset).
Incorrect, The Passion only over-rides the being able to select a unit once part of the rules.
Where in "The Passion" (or a rule more specific than a single Act of Faith in a single Acts of Faith system in a single army) does it say you have to be eligible to fight to be chosen?
The basic rules say that and it is not over-ridden by anything in The Passion...
Because the Passion gives me permission to choose, inherently overriding any restrictions that are less specific (which is what happens when a specific permission comes into conflict with a general restriction in a permissive rulesset).
Incorrect, The Passion only over-rides the being able to select a unit once part of the rules.
Reading this thread is a headache, I'm not sure how you can try to mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard.
The Core Rule Book uses the word Chosen when discussing the eligibility of which units can fight. Not every unit can be chosen, only ones which meet certain criteria.
The Passion, and nearly all other Acts of Faith, have no caveat about who you can use them on. Feel free to reread the sisters Codex, there isn't a single line about it.
The Passion uses the exact same wording as the Core Rule Book. Both the AoF and the Rule Book use the word Chosen, and we already know specific overrules general or else stratagems like Honour The Chapter wouldn't work. We can see by looking at another unit in the same Codex, the Penitent Engine, that different wording is used when it comes to a unit that can be chosen to fight but only instead of once.
Pakman184 wrote: [
Reading this thread is a headache, I'm not sure how you can try to mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard..
And we say the same about you. Your completely fixated on chosen when the operative word is Twice. Your ignoring the entirety of the sentence and the context of the rule. You can make it mean anything when you do that.
But at this point, this is going in circles and should just be locked.
I have not "mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard." My arguments have broke no rule. can not say the same about the other side of the argument.
You can use "The Passion, and nearly all other Acts of Faith" but if they do not qualify for being chosen then you can not actually choose the unit to fight.
You can use The Passion on any unit though it just wont do anything on a unit that has not charged or is not within 1 inch of an enemy unit.
Specific does overrule general, The Passion specifically overrules the general rule about only being able to be chosen once. it does not overrule the within 1 inch or the must have charged rules though.
The Penitent Engine rules have no bearing on The Passion.
Pakman184 wrote: [
Reading this thread is a headache, I'm not sure how you can try to mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard..
And we say the same about you. Your completely fixated on chosen when the operative word is Twice. Your ignoring the entirety of the sentence and the context of the rule. You can make it mean anything when you do that.
But at this point, this is going in circles and should just be locked.
Let me spell it out for you again, because something seems to have slipped by.
The entire context of the ability is that "a unit can be chosen to fight twice". That's all there is to it. That unit can fight twice. If they unit otherwise couldn't fight, it now can do so twice.
If you want to look at how it should work in the way you're imagining it to, look at the Penitent Engine. It says "This unit can fight twice, instead of once". Both of them are in the same codex, and if they were supposed to do the same thing they would have been worded the same.
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DeathReaper wrote: I have not "mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard." My arguments have broke no rule. can not say the same about the other side of the argument.
You can use "The Passion, and nearly all other Acts of Faith" but if they do not qualify for being chosen then you can not actually choose the unit to fight.
You can use The Passion on any unit though it just wont do anything on a unit that has not charged or is not within 1 inch of an enemy unit.
Specific does overrule general, The Passion specifically overrules the general rule about only being able to be chosen once. it does not overrule the within 1 inch or the must have charged rules though.
The Penitent Engine rules have no bearing on The Passion.
See, now you're willingly ignoring evidence to back up your faulty position. How sad.
The Penitent Engine is relevant because the wording of it's ability is what you're pretending The Passion does. The Penitent Engine's ability says "This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once.". The Passion says "the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase." Both of them are in the same codex and if both of them were supposed to do the same thing they would be worded the same.
You can indeed choose a unit in the fight phase after using The Passion because it literally says "The selected unit can be chosen" and when a unit can be chosen to fight, it must fight by the rules of the BRB.
Pakman184 wrote: [
Reading this thread is a headache, I'm not sure how you can try to mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard..
And we say the same about you. Your completely fixated on chosen when the operative word is Twice. Your ignoring the entirety of the sentence and the context of the rule. You can make it mean anything when you do that.
But at this point, this is going in circles and should just be locked.
Let me spell it out for you again, because something seems to have slipped by.
The entire context of the ability is that "a unit can be chosen to fight twice". That's all there is to it. That unit can fight twice. If the unit could fight, it now can do so twice.
If you want to look at how it should work in the way you're imagining it to, look at the Penitent Engine. It says "This unit can fight twice, instead of once". Both of them are in the same codex, and if they were supposed to do the same thing they would have been worded the same.
Pakman184 wrote: [
Reading this thread is a headache, I'm not sure how you can try to mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard..
And we say the same about you. Your completely fixated on chosen when the operative word is Twice. Your ignoring the entirety of the sentence and the context of the rule. You can make it mean anything when you do that.
But at this point, this is going in circles and should just be locked.
Let me spell it out for you again, because something seems to have slipped by.
The entire context of the ability is that "a unit can be chosen to fight twice". That's all there is to it. That unit can fight twice. If the unit could fight, it now can do so twice.
If you want to look at how it should work in the way you're imagining it to, look at the Penitent Engine. It says "This unit can fight twice, instead of once". Both of them are in the same codex, and if they were supposed to do the same thing they would have been worded the same.
FTFY
You're just wrong, there is no way around it.
The rule says "Chose To Fight Twice." There is no other caveat to it. If being able to fight was a requirement, it would be written like the Penitent Engine's ability which you're so willfully ignoring.
Pakman184 wrote: [ Reading this thread is a headache, I'm not sure how you can try to mental gymnastic your way around written rules so hard..
And we say the same about you. Your completely fixated on chosen when the operative word is Twice. Your ignoring the entirety of the sentence and the context of the rule. You can make it mean anything when you do that.
But at this point, this is going in circles and should just be locked.
Let me spell it out for you again, because something seems to have slipped by.
The entire context of the ability is that "a unit can be chosen to fight twice". That's all there is to it. That unit can fight twice. If the unit could fight, it now can do so twice.
If you want to look at how it should work in the way you're imagining it to, look at the Penitent Engine. It says "This unit can fight twice, instead of once". Both of them are in the same codex, and if they were supposed to do the same thing they would have been worded the same.
FTFY
You're just wrong, there is no way around it.
The rule says "Chose To Fight Twice." There is no other caveat to it. If being able to fight was a requirement, it would be written like the Penitent Engine's ability which you're so willfully ignoring.
His arguments are not wrong.
Your side has not been able to show anything that says it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. The rule says "Chose To Fight Twice." That is not bypassing the restrictions on having to have charged or having to be within 1 inch of an enemy unit no matter how much you want to claim "Chose To Fight Twice." bypasses them, they ONLY bypass the [A unit can only be chosen to fight once] restriction. That is it, no permissions to ignore anything else only the only fight once restriction.
There are plenty of same effect / different wording rules in 8th. The syntax on the Penitent Engine in no way proves this to be anything other than permission to fight fwice instead of once, if you’re eligible to fight in the first place. Two different sentences can have the same meaning. Would that GW had decided on some standard wording for effects before going copy/paste crazy, but they didn’t, and for the most part we’ve coped ok for 18months.
I urge people to write to GW if they think this rule is supposed to grant special permission to fight even if ineligible; not only is this rule in a Beta Codex that they want feedback on, they may also add any errata to the ‘warranty period FAQ’, that is likely behind the usual two week cycle because of Christmas and New Year. They can tighten up the wording and problem solved, either in FAQ or isn’t the full Codex.
Believing this to work even when not within 1” seems to be fishing for 12” of free moment, IMHO (Pile In + Consolidate x2). Patently not the intent, nor the RAW as I read it.
JohnnyHell wrote: There are plenty of same effect / different wording rules in 8th. The syntax on the Penitent Engine in no way proves this to be anything other than permission to fight fwice instead of once, if you’re eligible to fight in the first place. Two different sentences can have the same meaning. Would that GW had decided on some standard wording for effects before going copy/paste crazy, but they didn’t, and for the most part we’ve coped ok for 18months.
I urge people to write to GW if they think this rule is supposed to grant special permission to fight even if ineligible; not only is this rule in a Beta Codex that they want feedback on, they may also add any errata to the ‘warranty period FAQ’, that is likely behind the usual two week cycle because of Christmas and New Year. They can tighten up the wording and problem solved, either in FAQ or isn’t the full Codex.
Believing this to work even when not within 1” seems to be fishing for 12” of free moment, IMHO (Pile In + Consolidate x2). Patently not the intent, nor the RAW as I read it.
It's not about thinking that it's supposed to give two activations even if normally you wouldn't be able to activate even once. Nor is it about finding loopholes to exploit. It's simply about having the rules saying what they're supposed to say, instead of what the RAW might say when taken literal.
As I've said already I'm playing it as "can fight an additional time, if it is able to in the first place". It's just that I don't think that's what the literal reading of the rule says.
Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.
JohnnyHell wrote: Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.
This one time, I emailed GWand then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!
JohnnyHell wrote: Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.
This one time, I emailed GWand then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!
"Email GW who then reply saying to stick to RaW" isn't an excuse for bad rules writing. I know it's been the christmas break but we're well overdue for the initial "two week" FAQ that was promised for new book releases.
Still finding it hilarious that their book of errata needs errata.
JohnnyHell wrote: Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.
This one time, I emailed GWand then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!
Hey don’t polarise... play nice. ;-) Discussion is pretty much down to “yes it is / no it isn’t by now”.
JohnnyHell wrote: Cool story. Email GW then. ‘Beta’ permits them more error leeway than normal, so rather than duke it out on YMDC peeps should just write in as, ya know, GW requested.
This one time, I emailed GWand then went to talk about it on DakkaDakka anyways because they're not mutually exclusive! WOW!
"Email GW who then reply saying to stick to RaW" isn't an excuse for bad rules writing. I know it's been the christmas break but we're well overdue for the initial "two week" FAQ that was promised for new book releases.
Still finding it hilarious that their book of errata needs errata.
That you take an auto-reply as some catch-all prop-up for your opinions is... interesting.
They don’t send personal replies to the Hotline. They log them, feed them in and decide whether to FAQ if the Qs are indeed FA. For all we know they won’t errata anything until the legit Codex (which would be madness) but still, you’d have let them know.
DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.
Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.
This is how your posts read.
JohnnyHell wrote:I urge people to write to GW if they think this rule is supposed to grant special permission to fight even if ineligible;
RAW it currently does, but I don't expect any TO to allow it to be played that way because of what that enables.
I have written to GW to request that Vessel be changed to something else, enabling several of the Acts of Faith to be rebalanced to not suck: the resurrect one reviving d3 dead models on a 6+; the move one also adding 3" to advance and charge rolls; +1 to hit being changed to adding +1 shot to each ranged weapon profile.
JohnnyHell wrote:
Believing this to work even when not within 1” seems to be fishing for 12” of free moment, IMHO (Pile In + Consolidate x2). Patently not the intent, nor the RAW as I read it.
The more I've thumbed over the book, the more it seems like The Passion was RAI.
Sisters had several problems with their units in the index, for example Repentia having zero durability, dying to overwatch, being overcosted, not being a threat to Knights, and being generally weak in melee because they were never going to survive in melee to fight twice from the AoF.
So going into the Index, they get Bloody Rose, which makes them a threat to knights, aura stacking gives them a chance at durability, their point cost was lowered to where they'd be relatively cost-efficient if they had a legitimate save or a way to slingshot themselves into combat, and The Passion allows them to deny overwatch by getting close and then walking into combat.
It also fixes the problem that deepstriking Seraphim and such have with failing their charge rolls on the turn they land, because The Passion could be used to then walk the 9", end within 1" on the second activation, and then swing once.
The fact that it could be used to slingshot the entire army with Vessel seems to be something they underestimated the effect of, but let's be real here: Vessel costs 3 CP because The Passion exists and they were aware of that interaction, as there'd be no reason for it to cost more than 1 CP otherwise because the other Acts simply aren't good enough to ever justify spending 3 CP.
DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.
Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.
This is how your posts read.
I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.
The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.
DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.
Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.
This is how your posts read.
I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.
The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.
That's funny; I read the "can be chosen" phrase to mean 'can be chosen'. I suppose I could be wrong. How do you read it? Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.
DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.
Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.
This is how your posts read.
I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.
The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.
Something to consider:
The Passion (an act of faith cast on a 5+ on 1d6) :
Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
You seem to be taking "the selected unit" as the unit selected to fight. However, you use it at the beginning of the phase, before any unit is selected to fight. In this case, the "selected unit" would be the unit that you select to use the Act of Faith on. There is no statement limiting the unit to be selected to be one that is eligible to be chosen. If successful, you are told that the unit can be chosen to fight twice. Not an additional time, but chosen to fight twice. This is giving permission to to choose the unit during the fight phase, and fight twice, so that does circumvent the restriction you are claiming exists for it. When it's time to choose units to fight, you have one that's been told by a stratagem that it's eligible to fight even if it didn't charge or be within 1" of an enemy unit.
It seems to me that people are taking "the selected unit" to be a unit that's selected to fight. It isn't that at all, it's a unit selected to be getting the Act of Faith.
I certainly don't think this is what is intended, but the way it's written it's legal by RAW.
That's funny; I read the "can be chosen" phrase to mean 'can be chosen'. I suppose I could be wrong. How do you read it? Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.
They're reading it as having the same prepositional phrase "instead of" that Penitent Engine has, despite it not being there, and without understanding how that clause being present changes the sentence.
Draw two cards. (You draw two cards)
Draw two cards instead of one. (You don't draw a second card unless something else causes you to draw the first card)
DeathReaper wrote:
The stratagem clearly demonstrates that it ignores the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight, but that doesn't matter because the BRB has restrictions that your stratagem doesn't care about. The rule says "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is not bypassing the restrictions on "Can be chosen" because your stratagem specifically states "Can Be Chosen To Fight." That is it, no permissions to do the thing it explicitly tells you it is enabling you to do.
Your arguments ignore the rules the stratagem is providing an alternative to.
This is how your posts read.
I never said that, and that is completely incorrect. It is the exact opposite actually.
The stratagem clearly DOES NOT demonstrate that it ignores all of the restrictions on being able to choose a unit to fight. It only ignores the restriction on only being able to choose a unit once.
That's funny; I read the "can be chosen" phrase to mean 'can be chosen'.
That is correct, they "can be chosen twice" They are still subject to the restrictions of eligibility.
I suppose I could be wrong. How do you read it? Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.
Twice is the operative clause in that phrase 'can be chosen to fight with twice'... The Passion says: Use this act of faith at the beginning of the fight phase. If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase.
You cant just read 3 words in the rule and get an interpretation as that is not correct.
If you are not bringing adverbs into it you are ignoring parts of the rule, and that is a very disingenuous way to argue rules. and also proves your argument false since you ignore part of the rule.
You seem to be taking "the selected unit" as the unit selected to fight. However, you use it at the beginning of the phase, before any unit is selected to fight. In this case, the "selected unit" would be the unit that you select to use the Act of Faith on. There is no statement limiting the unit to be selected to be one that is eligible to be chosen. If successful, you are told that the unit can be chosen to fight twice. Not an additional time, but chosen to fight twice. This is giving permission to to choose the unit during the fight phase, and fight twice, so that does circumvent the restriction you are claiming exists for it. When it's time to choose units to fight, you have one that's been told by a stratagem that it's eligible to fight even if it didn't charge or be within 1" of an enemy unit.
It seems to me that people are taking "the selected unit" to be a unit that's selected to fight. It isn't that at all, it's a unit selected to be getting the Act of Faith.
I certainly don't think this is what is intended, but the way it's written it's legal by RAW.
fight twice or an additional time makes no difference. they really mean the same thing.
Either way the unit still can not be chosen to fight if it does not meet certain conditions.
A unit that did not charge and is not within 1 inch of an enemy cant be chosen at all so they are ineligible to be chosen twice.
The way it's written it is not legal by RAW to choose them as nothing over-rides the conditions of charging or being within 1 inch, nothing.
You seem to be taking "the selected unit" as the unit selected to fight. However, you use it at the beginning of the phase, before any unit is selected to fight. In this case, the "selected unit" would be the unit that you select to use the Act of Faith on. There is no statement limiting the unit to be selected to be one that is eligible to be chosen. If successful, you are told that the unit can be chosen to fight twice. Not an additional time, but chosen to fight twice. This is giving permission to to choose the unit during the fight phase, and fight twice, so that does circumvent the restriction you are claiming exists for it. When it's time to choose units to fight, you have one that's been told by a stratagem that it's eligible to fight even if it didn't charge or be within 1" of an enemy unit.
It seems to me that people are taking "the selected unit" to be a unit that's selected to fight. It isn't that at all, it's a unit selected to be getting the Act of Faith.
I certainly don't think this is what is intended, but the way it's written it's legal by RAW.
fight twice or an additional time makes no difference. they really mean the same thing.
Either way the unit still can not be chosen to fight if it does not meet certain conditions.
A unit that did not charge and is not within 1 inch of an enemy cant be chosen at all so they are ineligible to be chosen twice.
You are incorrect here. The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice. The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times. This bypasses the restrictions that you are claiming would apply; they apply normally for being able to choose a unit to fight, but we have a stratagem also telling us the unit is allowed to be chosen to fight. Twice.
DeathReaper wrote: The way it's written it is not legal by RAW to choose them as nothing over-rides the conditions of charging or being within 1 inch, nothing.
Again incorrect. You are blatantly ignoring that the stratagem specifically instructs you that the unit can be chosen (twice). Having a stratagem saying you can be chosen by definition means it's legal by RAW to choose them. You have already been given permission to choose them, so you do not look at those restrictions. You haven't been able to prove that nothing overrides the conditions to let something be chosen when we have a stratagem that specifically tells us a unit can be chosen. Your restrictions are bypassed and therefore irrelevant, making your statement incorrect. You have already been given permission to choose them.
Crucially, the Permission comes from a specific rule, as well, so the restriction to restrain the permission would have to be even more specific still.
Unit1126PLL wrote: …….Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.
And there lies your problem. Your trying to clip sentences. Words mean things. And have a complete effect on Context. But you know that since your so grammar oriented and are just choosing to ignore it.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Crucially, the Permission comes from a specific rule, as well, so the restriction to restrain the permission would have to be even more specific still.
Yes, specific permission to override 1 restriction. Still need the other 2 restrictions lifted to work.
Unit1126PLL wrote: …….Oh, and don't bring any adverbs (like 'twice') into the discussion - they don't actually change the meaning of the verb at all.
And there lies your problem. Your trying to clip sentences. Words mean things. And have a complete effect on Context. But you know that since your so grammar oriented and are just choosing to ignore it.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Crucially, the Permission comes from a specific rule, as well, so the restriction to restrain the permission would have to be even more specific still.
Yes, specific permission to override 1 restriction. Still need the other 2 restrictions lifted to work.
The way it's written, you do get specific permission to choose the unit to fight. Remember, the Act of Faith is used at the beginning of the Fight Phase. That is before any unit is chosen to fight. "The selected unit" can be chosen to fight twice. "The selected unit" in this case is referring to the unit selected to have the Act of Faith; it is not a unit being chosen to fight. There are no restictions in the act of faith to limit which unit you select to have the act of faith. If successful, the unit can be chosen to fight twice. That means it has permission to be chosen to fight as we are told it can be chosen to fight. So, when it comes time to select units to fight, the unit operating with The Passion may be chosen because the stratagem has already given it permission to be chosen. You don't bother looking to see if it charged or is within 1" of an enemy because you already have permission from the act of faith cast at the start of the fight phase, before any units are selected to fight.
Again, I don't see this as what GW intended, but that is what they have given us by RAW. I would not be surprised to see a FAQ that states it can only be used on units that would be eligible to fight in the first place, or say fight one additional time; something to limit it to units that could normally fight in that phase. As it doesn't have that limitation, however, the stratagem as it exists now can be used on any Sisters unit, not just ones that are eligible to fight normally.
The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice.
Yes, and this permission only over-rides the only fight once permission, nothing else.
The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times.
If you can choose it in the first place, sure.
This bypasses the restrictions that you are claiming would apply; they apply normally for being able to choose a unit to fight, but we have a stratagem also telling us the unit is allowed to be chosen to fight. Twice.
Incorrect, it only over-rides the restriction on being able to fight once. It says nothing about the being within one inch. There is nothing there to suggest that it does over-ride the fight once or one inch restrictions.
doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper wrote: The way it's written it is not legal by RAW to choose them as nothing over-rides the conditions of charging or being within 1 inch, nothing.
Again incorrect. You are blatantly ignoring that the stratagem specifically instructs you that the unit can be chosen (twice).
No I am not incorrect, I am not ignoring anything it is your argument that ignores the fact that there is nothing in The Passion to over-ride the fight once or one inch restrictions. Can fight twice ONLY over-rides the restriction about only being able to fight once.
The unit can be chosen twice (Instead of once) that is ALL this rule over-rides...
Having a stratagem saying you can be chosen by definition means it's legal by RAW to choose them.
If you follow all of the other rules, sure, your argument does not do that though.
You have already been given permission to choose them, so you do not look at those restrictions.
There is nothing in that permission that says anything about ignoring the one inch or charge restrictions.
You haven't been able to prove that nothing overrides the conditions to let something be chosen when we have a stratagem that specifically tells us a unit can be chosen. Your restrictions are bypassed and therefore irrelevant, making your statement incorrect. You have already been given permission to choose them.
Again, There is nothing in that permission that says anything about ignoring the one inch or charge restrictions.
The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice.
Yes, and this permission only over-rides the only fight once permission, nothing else.
The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times.
If you can choose it in the first place, sure.
This is where you're going wrong. I explained it, but you are ignoring what I said to cling to your preconceptions.
The Act of Faith is used at the beginning of the Fight Phase.
The Act of Faith is used before choosing any unit to fight.
The Passion says that "the selected unit" may "choose to fight twice"
Since no unit is chosen to fight yet, "the selected unit" is referring to the unit selected to put the Act of Faith on.
There are no restrictions in the Act of Faith as per having to be within 1" or having charged during the charge phase. You can use it on a Sisters unit that's on the other side of the board from a fight if you want to. You have not offered any proof that the stratagem is limited to units that could normally be selected to fight. Barring that, you have to accept that what it says for a target unit is true.
Now, if successful the stratagem says that you can choose to fight twice. It does not say you can fight an additional time. It says choose to fight.
When the time to select units comes around, you may select the unit that used the Passion precisely because you are told that it can be chosen to fight. That does not subject it to the limitations of having charged or being within 1". The stratagem, which says that you can be chosen to fight, is already active on the unit, which bypasses your limitations. You've been told the unit can be chosen to fight before getting to the step where those restrictions are listed. You have not provided any basis to support your claim that restrictions preventing a unit to be chosen to fight still apply to a unit that we are told has already been approved to be chosen to fight. Please provide some basis, as I have shown how the unit is pre-approved to be chosen to fight before any units are chosen to fight.
This is circular and should be binned by the mods until we get clarification from GW. Its just become a “oh yes it does/oh no it doesn’t” pantomime, and panto season is over for this year.
JohnnyHell wrote: This is circular and should be binned by the mods until we get clarification from GW. Its just become a “oh yes it does/oh no it doesn’t” pantomime, and panto season is over for this year.
It's always pantsu season. Oh wait, you wrote panto.
The stratagem clearly states that the unit may be chosen to fight twice.
Yes, and this permission only over-rides the only fight once permission, nothing else.
The stratagem itself lets it be chosen both times.
If you can choose it in the first place, sure.
This is where you're going wrong. I explained it, but you are ignoring what I said to cling to your preconceptions.
No I am not wrong. You have no rules basis. The claim that "the selected unit" may "choose to fight twice" Ignores the charge or 1 inch restrictions is false. there is nothing there that makes choose to fight twice over-ride the other restrictions. But your argument ignores the rules.
The Act of Faith is used at the beginning of the Fight Phase.
The Act of Faith is used before choosing any unit to fight.
The Passion says that "the selected unit" may "choose to fight twice"
Since no unit is chosen to fight yet, "the selected unit" is referring to the unit selected to put the Act of Faith on.
There are no restrictions in the Act of Faith as per having to be within 1" or having charged during the charge phase. You can use it on a Sisters unit that's on the other side of the board from a fight if you want to. You have not offered any proof that the stratagem is limited to units that could normally be selected to fight. Barring that, you have to accept that what it says for a target unit is true.
There does not need to be restrictions in the Act of Faith, as the base rules give those restrictions...
DeathReaper wrote: There does not need to be restrictions in the Act of Faith, as the base rules give those restrictions...
The BRB doesn't give restrictions, it gives permission to do something if you satisfy requirements. If you get permission to do the thing from somewhere else, you don't have to go back to the BRB and satisfy all of those requirements as well because you don't need to: you already have permission to do the thing.
And then for the Twice thing, I have a simple request: If you can read this, clap your hands twice.
Did you clap your hands the first time? Did you clap them again? Not a hard concept.
Now exchange out the clauses for their equivalent: if you rolled a 5+, you can choose this unit to fight twice.
40k Rules wrote:1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another.
They give restrictions on what units are eligible to be chosen. They say "Choose Unit to Fight With" then give the restrictions on which units can be chosen.
nekooni wrote: Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata
Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.
nekooni wrote: Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata
Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.
Yes. A real tragedy. Can we quit the posturing now?
nekooni wrote: Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata
Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.
You know, I'm willing to let it go, but then you say stuff like this and it comes across as deliberately provocative.
Tell me what happens when the Passion lets me choose a unit, and the BRB says I can't because if its restrictions.
If your answer is "you can't" then you're ignoring the more specific rule (the Passion, which explicitly says you can choose a unit. Twice even.) in favor of a general rule. Which defeats the whole understanding of a permissive rulesset. I have permission to choose, and you need a more specific restriction to override the permission, the way the more specific permission overrode the general restriction...
nekooni wrote: Neither side is going to convince the other side,no matter how often you claim the other side is "incorrect". Let's just wait for the FAQ/Errata
Yea, it is unfortunate that the opposing side is ignoring the RaW, but such is life I guess.
You know, I'm willing to let it go, but then you say stuff like this and it comes across as deliberately provocative.
i am not being provocative. I am just not ignoring the rules like some are.
Tell me what happens when the Passion lets me choose a unit, and the BRB says I can't because if its restrictions.
The Passion lets you choose a unit twice... The Passion over-rides the rule about only choosing a unit once. That is the only thing that The passion trumps.
If your answer is "you can't" then you're ignoring the more specific rule (the Passion, which explicitly says you can choose a unit. Twice even.) in favor of a general rule. Which defeats the whole understanding of a permissive rulesset.
Incorrect. The answer is that The Passion lets you choose a unit twice. it does not over-ride the fact that you need to be within 1 inch or have charged for them to be eligible to be chosen in the first place... We have permission to over-ride the only choose once rule, not the 1 inch or charged part of the rule.
I have permission to choose, and you need a more specific restriction to override the permission, the way the more specific permission overrode the general restriction...
REMOVED - BrookM
You have permission to choose twice... you dont have permission to over-ride the 1 inch or have charged for them to be eligible to be chosen in the first place rules. This is what you are not understanding. The rules are on my side, I have shown you a convincing argument, you are just ignoring it and instead are attacking me as a person calling me "REMOVED - BrookM" just to get the thread locked. Stop. your side doen not have a leg to stand on Please read the whole rule.
40k Rules wrote:1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another.
They give restrictions on what units are eligible to be chosen. They say "Choose Unit to Fight With" then give the restrictions on which units can be chosen.
So your argument is false puppetsoul.
What you are claiming is irrelevant. The stratagem is used at the beginning of the fight phase, before anything is chosen. The stratagem gives you permission to be chosen; it states that you can be chosen twice. The stratagem gives you the permission to be chosen, so when you go to choose a unit those restrictions don't apply to the unit with The Passion, since it already has been given permission to be chosen. It lets you choose the unit twice, not just once. You still haven't shown how you can apply restrictions to choose something that has already been given permission to be chosen. You want to treat it as "you have permission...just kidding, you don't have permission". The limitations you are quoting are not referred to in The Passion; it does not say "eligible unit", "a unit selected to fight may fight an additional time" or anything to indicate the restrictions, therefore it's a blanket permission. As it is written, it gives you permission to be chosen the first time as well as the second time, before you get to looking at the restrictions. You don't get to apply those restrictions retroactively the way it is written.
Now, they probably intend for it to only override the rule about only choosing a unit once, but the way it is written it ends up overriding the other restrictions by dint of it giving you permission to fight before you get to the point of choosing which units will fight. I would imagine that this is going to get FAQ'd to clarify it that way, or to clarify it that it can be put on any unit if they actually meant that instead. A
I suspect, that what it says now is not what they really meant it to say and it will be changed. (and I suspect that DeathReaper will be correct on the interpretation)
The continuing argument about a rule, that isn't even an actual rule yet, is going round in circles so much it's making me dizzy!
Kcalehc wrote: I suspect, that what it says now is not what they really meant it to say and it will be changed.
Everything about the codex suggests that it was intended to work the way it does, although I do not think they fully understood the level that it would be exploited with Vessel.
So I do suspect that they will change it (which then makes both Passion's 5+ test as well as Vessel's 3 CP cost unjustifiable).
ITC has ruled for Sister's Beta Codex specifically, which I assume is because they were the playtest team for it (as Reece has been gloating about being part of the team for the Chapter Approved missions).
LVO judges have also made the ruling for LVO that The Passion will be played as if it is the Khorne Berserker's ability (same wording as Penitent Engine's ability with "instead of only once"), with all associated FAQs that have been applied to that ability.
Page 79 – Acts of Faith, The Passion Change the second sentence to read: ‘If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to Fight with twice in that phase, instead of only once.’
Page 79 – Acts of Faith, The Passion
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to Fight with twice in that phase, instead of only once.’
Thank goodness! Unclearness made clear! Lock it up?
