Whatever your personal opinions on primaris marines it is quite obvious that due to their success GW is probably going to keep expanding their roster in the future with new units/vehicles. What kind of new units would be good to make their roster more 'rounded' than it is currently whilst still keeping to the general 'theme' of the primaris marines as opposed to just primaris coppies of exsisting SM units?

Here are several Ideas ive had:

- Some sort of close fire support squad, similar to hellblasters, using entirely new versions of meltas and flamers for either close range anti infantry or anti vehicle roles.
- Jetbike Bikers
- A dedicated main grav battletank as opposed to the hybrid transport/shooty repulsor we already have.
- A dedicated close combat version of inceptors and/or agressors utilizing more potent power weaponary.
- Some sort of primaris veteran squad, preferably also CC oriented. I think the idea of them all utilizing giant two handed evicerators with the occasional relic blade would be a pretty fluffy and would seperate them a bit from normal SM veteran squads.
- Primaris Techmarine

- We already have Aggressors for the short-ranged fire support squad.
- One of the main tech points with SM is that there are very few jetbikes remaining, just DA and Custodes have them. I don't get why Primaris suddenly need them, although regular Biker Primaris would look cool.
- We already have the Astraeus for that.
- Could go with that.
- We already have Honour Guard, Vanguard Vets and Company Vets, what else do you need?

Implementing these would make most of the regular SM obsolete, I'm a Primaris fan myself, but we don't need a Primaris equivalent for every unit in the Codex.

Realistically, most of this can be handled by adding weapon options to existing squads.

Let Rievers/Intercessors take Primaris Flamers/Meltas, Hellblasters Missiles/Lascannons and Aggressors/Inceptors some flavor of melee weapon (buffed to reflect their smaller model count per unit).

Flavor with a Predator-equivalent and some bikes and you're golden.

I’d like a dedicated CC squad with jump packs; a fast attack option worth taking. 3ish attacks, don’t care if it’s gravis or not but needs to be able to cut through hordes or crack tanks and wreck monsters; Aggressors aren’t specialized enough.

Primaris bikes would be nice; the current ones are ancient.

Primaris battle tank would be fantastic since the predator is a POS and the repulsor is too expensive and pays for transport capability.

Hard pass on jet bikes or any more hover tanks. That's a 30k thing and represents the central theme of 40k, that the Horus Heresy was a tragic event that hobbled mankind. I'm so sick of all this lost tech coming back, it's robbing the setting of what makes it unique.

 vodo40k wrote:
Whatever your personal opinions on primaris marines it is quite obvious that due to their success GW is probably going to keep expanding their roster in the future with new units/vehicles. What kind of new units would be good to make their roster more 'rounded' than it is currently whilst still keeping to the general 'theme' of the primaris marines as opposed to just primaris coppies of exsisting SM units?

Here are several Ideas ive had:

- Some sort of close fire support squad, similar to hellblasters, using entirely new versions of meltas and flamers for either close range anti infantry or anti vehicle roles.
- Jetbike Bikers
- A dedicated main grav battletank as opposed to the hybrid transport/shooty repulsor we already have.
- A dedicated close combat version of inceptors and/or agressors utilizing more potent power weaponary.
- Some sort of primaris veteran squad, preferably also CC oriented. I think the idea of them all utilizing giant two handed evicerators with the occasional relic blade would be a pretty fluffy and would seperate them a bit from normal SM veteran squads.
- Primaris Techmarine

The MBT is what I would love to see the most.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
- We already have Aggressors for the short-ranged fire support squad.
- One of the main tech points with SM is that there are very few jetbikes remaining, just DA and Custodes have them. I don't get why Primaris suddenly need them, although regular Biker Primaris would look cool.
- We already have the Astraeus for that.
- Could go with that.
- We already have Honour Guard, Vanguard Vets and Company Vets, what else do you need?

Implementing these would make most of the regular SM obsolete, I'm a Primaris fan myself, but we don't need a Primaris equivalent for every unit in the Codex.

I think that lore is out the window. Cawl can make all kinds of anti-grav stuff now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Hard pass on jet bikes or any more hover tanks. That's a 30k thing and represents the central theme of 40k, that the Horus Heresy was a tragic event that hobbled mankind. I'm so sick of all this lost tech coming back, it's robbing the setting of what makes it unique.

I have to agree with this; I would have rather seen Intercessors packing stormbolters or something, but I was ok with bolt rifles. New and improved plasma for Hellblasters bothered me more but I could live with it. Imperium getting grav tanks was beyond the pale for me though.

I’d like to see an alt build for Helblasters - a five man squad with some other heavy weapon loadout - perhaps Lascannons for dedicated antitank and/or Flamers/Chainguns for mob suppression.

They could also use some sort of flyer - preferably an attack VTOL and some sort of transport.

A Land Raider equivalent, with no transport capacity, would be nice as well.

I just want a heavy, highly durable, highly dangerous, melle unit. (no aggressors aren't heavy enough!)

The lack of options on the existing squads is my main complaint about Primaris. I *like* OldMarines. The scale of Primaris is better. The bling density is too. But OldMarines are so much more customizable.

So what I want in a new Primaris range is:
-Intercessor special/heavy/sarge kit. Allowing one Special and one heavy in a 10man (or one of those in a 5), and letting you give Sarge some fun toys.
-Make 'Reivers' be even more 'Intercessors minus boltguns'
-Variant of 'Reivers' that can take a super mobility option. Bonus points of we get that in both "I can fly" and "Biker" variants as different models (/units)

I want "Devs" too, but the above two are the bigger issues.

I'd like to see Primaris Drop Pods. At 50 points.

Oh and:
-Well, maybe base Primaris (Intercessors, Reivers, maybe not Aggressors, etc) can fit in Rhinos and Pods.

 Valkyrie wrote:


Implementing these would make most of the regular SM obsolete, I'm a Primaris fan myself, but we don't need a Primaris equivalent for every unit in the Codex.

Strongly disagree, that's exactly what we need, as soon as possible. Primaris only have such distinct(and lacking choices) units to maintain the pretense that they're a different and additional thing, rather than the replacement they were IMO fairly obviously designed as, and everyone knows that eventually Oldmarines are going away - just drop the utterly transparent fiction and give us "truescale" Marines already.

Also, agree firmly with everyone saying no to more grav vehicles. Just let Primaris use the normal sodding Marine vehicles, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to except, again, the ludicrous fiction that they're totes a whole different army really honest guv.

Marines are not supposed to have MBTs, that is kind of their point. Just like how they are not supposed to have proper space ships. The idea is that they should be limited to planetary invasion and support roles. Letting them have everything would make them far harder to bring to heel when they go rogue.

Robute Guilliman is the George Lucas of the 41st millennium. He needs to stop messing with the Codex Astartes.

 Valkyrie wrote:


Implementing these would make most of the regular SM obsolete,

Ohh dear. Another one that doesn't know how the movie Titanic ends...

I honestly just want different styles of helmets and shoulder pads.

 Trickstick wrote:
Marines are not supposed to have MBTs, that is kind of their point. Just like how they are not supposed to have proper space ships. The idea is that they should be limited to planetary invasion and support roles. Letting them have everything would make them far harder to bring to heel when they go rogue.

Robute Guilliman is the George Lucas of the 41st millennium. He needs to stop messing with the Codex Astartes.

Well in the fluff it clearly works.

Well, the galaxy is certainly much worse off than before he woke up. So, without a control galaxy to compare what would have happened with what did, it's possible he's actually making things worse!

The actual complaint, though, is more that he's amending the Codex Astartes with silly things that don't fit existing Marine fluff and are even more removed from reality than existing Marines.

Bharring wrote:
Well, the galaxy is certainly much worse off than before he woke up. So, without a control galaxy to compare what would have happened with what did, it's possible he's actually making things worse!

The actual complaint, though, is more that he's amending the Codex Astartes with silly things that don't fit existing Marine fluff and are even more removed from reality than existing Marines.

Like?

Adding an 11th reserve company makes sense. Having Demicompanies and command units makes sense.

How is it making it worse?

The space marines desperately needed to have a better command structure than before.

The only big thing primaris are missing are Terminators / Heavy Infantry. As Aggressors fill the heavy support role not the elite role of Termies....

The other big problem that I see is the primaris really don't have anything to carry them in a transport capacity, no air support, no close combat support, no true "I WILL MURDER YOU IN COMBAT!"

Primaris getting leaders for their companies that are further separated into demi companies makes sense.

I don't like they lore, but from what I understand they are the future. If I could make GW do it. I would like to see GK strike primaris, GK primaris paladins in gravis armor. Some sort of support long range unit like hellblasters, but with more types of weapons. Would be a good start. Then they could re-do the HQs, and maybe then there would be some entice to take something else then draigo and GM in NDK armor. Maybe a primaris dreadnought with a jetpack with a librarian inside could be fun to have.

"Like?"
Having a squad with 100% heavy weapons or 100% boltguns. That's just silly.

Bharring wrote:
"Like?"
Having a squad with 100% heavy weapons or 100% boltguns. That's just silly.

Like the 30k legions?

They can take grenade launchers in intercessor squads. Its not like they are completely helpless, for the moment they don't have antitank for intercessors. We will see if they expand the range if they will add more units to them.

I love the idea of jet bikes. I think they'd look great, look at custodes jet bikes...

Honestly I want jet bikes, at the same time I don't want them on flight stems. Maybe if they had the Puck like piece that the repulsor has otherwise its a pass

 fraser1191 wrote:
I love the idea of jet bikes. I think they'd look great, look at custodes jet bikes...

Honestly I want jet bikes, at the same time I don't want them on flight stems. Maybe if they had the Puck like piece that the repulsor has otherwise its a pass

I am fine with jetbikes coming back the fact they disappeared at all for marines is dumb.

Ensure they have good equipment and a high toughness and access to close combat weapons and i'll be happy to have my white scars have a reason to be played.

 Trickstick wrote:
Marines are not supposed to have MBTs, that is kind of their point. Just like how they are not supposed to have proper space ships. The idea is that they should be limited to planetary invasion and support roles. Letting them have everything would make them far harder to bring to heel when they go rogue.

Robute Guilliman is the George Lucas of the 41st millennium. He needs to stop messing with the Codex Astartes.

We need a mass rebellion of Primaris Marine at some point to make the lore more dramatic.

On another note though, Primaris Marines will replace Space Marines. Space Marines will endure thanks to GW producing rules (or actually keeping the rules) for their old units once in a while via a specialised website and free PDF like they did for the bretonnians and the Tomb King. Chaos Space Marines will remain normal marines as to reflect the current condition of Stormcast Eternal vs Warriors of Chaos.

Thus, the next thing we can expect from the Primaris is a good close combat unit.

Which the Codex Astartes fixed?

A squad with a Missile Launcher and 4 Boltguns simply has more tactical flexibility than a squad with 5 Boltguns or 5 Missile Launchers. In "the real world", they certainly don't give every member of a squad a heavy weapon - it didn't take long to figure out what worked best.

I loved that about Marines, and now GW is walking that back. "The big guy with brilliant tactics? He realized you want a specialist, a heavy weapons guy, a Sarge, and some squaddies working together as a unit."
Awesome. Fluffy. Feels right. Makes sense.

"The big guy came back. Now, he's saying that's dumb. The best tactical option is clearly MOAR DAKKA. The best configuration is SPAM. The right level of nuance is NONE.".
Barf.

Bharring wrote:
"Like?"
Having a squad with 100% heavy weapons or 100% boltguns. That's just silly.

For someone who plays Eldar you have an odd opinion of Aspect Warriors.

We need a mass rebellion of Primaris Marine at some point to make the lore more dramatic.

No

I hate the idea of another imperial rebellion.

Maybe have chaos step up its game? Bring out the big guns.... The Dark Mechanicus.

For someone who plays Eldar you have an odd opinion of Aspect Warriors.

My thoughts exactly!

I would like to see some nasty dedicated close combat unit

Asmodios wrote:
I would like to see some nasty dedicated close combat unit

Or primaris terminators.



Honestly I would love to see termies get upgraded. Close combat units get a bit of a flavor touch, and for some primaris heroes rise to the task that started out as primaris.


For close combat units I would love to see arm weapons.



There are so many options they could go with but On my priority list are termies with toughness 5 and primaris stats.

"For someone who plays Eldar you have an odd opinion of Aspect Warriors."
Aspect Warriors would be better if they weren't hobbled by the nature of what it means to be Aspect Warriors.

Imagine a Dark Reaper squad and a Guardian squad. Now imagine two sets of half a Dark Reaper squad with half a Guardian Squad working directly with them.

Imagine if instead of a Fire Dragon squad and five Dire Avenger squads, you had six squads of mostly Dire Avengers with one Melta Gun. They'd get a lot more done.

The nature of the Aspect system is such that each Aspect perfects it's Aspect of war. Combining those Aspects is more effective at war - even the Aspects believe this, and this is what Swordwind is all about. But the Craftworlders are too obsessed with Perfection. So instead of learning how to operate a heavy weapon and an infantry weapon, and working in teams of combined disciplines to get stuff done, they each obsess over one way to fight, and work in teams of others perfecting the same style.

It's not more efficient. It's a handicap built into what they are. Being a Space Elf Ninja Samurai doesn't mean you're 100% better than a Human in every way (just most ways). This is one way in which the Eldar nature of obsession hurts them.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I would like to see some nasty dedicated close combat unit

Or primaris terminators.

Spoiler:

Honestly I would love to see termies get upgraded. Close combat units get a bit of a flavor touch, and for some primaris heroes rise to the task that started out as primaris.


For close combat units I would love to see arm weapons.

Spoiler:

There are so many options they could go with but On my priority list are termies with toughness 5 and primaris stats.

All of this looks good to me
Id

"Primaris Terminator"?
Instead of making a Termie- equivelent, I'd rather they just Primarized Termies themselves. New sculpts to fit the new scale and better process. Maybe some new options too. But I hope they don't lose their current feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The first one looks like Plasma Cannon/Power Fist, and the second one looks like Storm Bolter/Chainfist?

The first one looks like Plasma Cannon/Power Fist, and the second one looks like Storm Bolter/Chainfist?

It looks like a minigun as you can see the ammo belt going into it.

Which looks kind of awesome tbh

the second looks like a shotgun and a chain fist.

I thought it looked like there was containment housing behind the ammo chain, but it could be either. Usually when I think minigun, I think open-air barrels for air movement. Which would not be a given, obviously.

That said, Termies can already take a minigun (Assault Cannon). And it already looks amazing on them.

The second could be a Storm-bolter-modded-to-shotgun. If I were to see a model with that on the tabletop, I'm assuming Storm Bolter unless told otherwise.

Both look amazing. Primaris Termies could look amazing if they don't monkey with what makes Termies Termies.

Bharring wrote:
I thought it looked like there was containment housing behind the ammo chain, but it could be either. Usually when I think minigun, I think open-air barrels for air movement. Which would not be a given, obviously.

That said, Termies can already take a minigun (Assault Cannon). And it already looks amazing on them.

The second could be a Storm-bolter-modded-to-shotgun. If I were to see a model with that on the tabletop, I'm assuming Storm Bolter unless told otherwise.

Both look amazing. Primaris Termies could look amazing if they don't monkey with what makes Termies Termies.

That we can agree on. Primaris Termies need to be the best looking models for primaris TBH

He has his own version of an assault cannon (the artist is hammk)



Honestly concepts for primaris are sleek but still faithful to 40k.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I love the idea of jet bikes. I think they'd look great, look at custodes jet bikes...

Honestly I want jet bikes, at the same time I don't want them on flight stems. Maybe if they had the Puck like piece that the repulsor has otherwise its a pass

I am fine with jetbikes coming back the fact they disappeared at all for marines is dumb.

Ensure they have good equipment and a high toughness and access to close combat weapons and i'll be happy to have my white scars have a reason to be played.

I'm not gonna kid myself I'd buy them regardless. Though I'd prefer the bikes to have that Puck base instead. Inceptors and their flight stems were pretty frustrating

Bharring wrote:


Imagine a Dark Reaper squad and a Guardian squad. Now imagine two sets of half a Dark Reaper squad with half a Guardian Squad working directly with them.

Imagine if instead of a Fire Dragon squad and five Dire Avenger squads, you had six squads of mostly Dire Avengers with one Melta Gun. They'd get a lot more done.

The nature of the Aspect system is such that each Aspect perfects it's Aspect of war. Combining those Aspects is more effective at war - even the Aspects believe this, and this is what Swordwind is all about. But the Craftworlders are too obsessed with Perfection. So instead of learning how to operate a heavy weapon and an infantry weapon, and working in teams of combined disciplines to get stuff done, they each obsess over one way to fight, and work in teams of others perfecting the same style.

The amount of self-contradiction here is hilarious. You're deliberately acting like two different sub-units cant work together. That's the entire underlining theory about combined arms warfare.

Aspects routinely go to war together. That's the entire point of the Aspects: master a particular art of warfare so that it can be deployed at the opportune moment against the optimal target.

"The amount of self-contradiction here is hilarious. You're deliberately acting like two different sub-units cant work together. That's the entire underlining theory about combined arms warfare."
A Fire Dragon and a Banshee can't work together the way a modern soldier with a Machine Gun and a Rifle can.

A Fire Dragon Shrine and a Banshee Shrine can - and do - work together the way a modern infantry unit and modern tank can. That's what "Swordwind" is all about.

The Aspects *do* go to war together, but they don't intermix units like modern soldiers or 40k Marines do.

Unfortunately it seems like Guilliman thinks “well when we had mono units we took over the galaxy, and then I wrote a book and had a nap and now the wheels are falling off...time to hit the reset button!”

In actuality it’s just a matter of the high lords of terra at Nottingham HQ not wanting to anger all the chapter masters sending them tithes.

Bharring wrote:

A Fire Dragon and a Banshee can't work together the way a modern soldier with a Machine Gun and a Rifle can.

Best tell all the Craftworld warhosts to go home then, they're not allowed to fight together.

Bharring wrote:

A Fire Dragon Shrine and a Banshee Shrine can - and do - work together the way a modern infantry unit and modern tank can. That's what "Swordwind" is all about.

That's not remotely what the Swordwind is. The Swordwind is a specific strategic doctrine primarily employed by Biel-Tan, notably a single massed decapitation strike on an enemy target using the entirety of their committed force.

It's an Eldar Mont'ka strike (or more accurately the Tau Mont'Ka doctrine is an independent evolution of the Swordwind).

Bharring wrote:

The Aspects *do* go to war together, but they don't intermix units like modern soldiers or 40k Marines do.

The goalpost moving is strong with this one.

The underlying point is about mixed-capability squads, not combined arms in general. I'm arguing that mixed-capability squads make more sense, and are what's done today.

The point about Aspects is that it was pointed out that they're my favorites (after Demi-Company Marines, actually, but that's not so apparent from my posting), and they *don't* do mixed-capability squads.

The post you're referring to is in reference to that. Reapers aren't dispersed across Guardian squads or Dire Avenger squads because that's not how Aspects work, culturally. I would expect Reapers dispersed across Guardian squads to be a much more effective fighting force than one with a Reaper squad and a bunch of Guardian squads.

I wholeheartedly agree that Aspects routinely go to war together. Each Aspect is woefully unequipped to handle a "real" engagement themselves. They are perfecting playing their one part. But the way they work on mastering that one Aspect prevents them from comingling at the squad level.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind the age of some of the Marine kits when we try to predict what is next for Primaris (on the assumption that we’re slowly moving to an all-Primaris range).

BIKERS. The models are ancient, the scout ones slightly less so, and the bikes themselves are very static compared to recent releases. I could totally see a Reiver Biker unit in the pipeline and maybe a Jetbike unit.

LAND SPEEDERS - Again, very old models. Doesn’t take too much to imagine the new grav tech leads to a better light skimmer.

ASSAULT UNITS - Its the obvious missing link in the Primaris army. This might just be Aggressor suits that have more of an ‘Assault Terminator’ feel to them or some sort of Intercessor assault unit.

RHINO UPGRADE - I’m sceptical that they’ll completely do away with the Rhino and Land Raider for marines. But I could see Cawl coming up with a modification on the existing model or a new mark that can carry Primaris models (could even just be fluff and rules) which then makes a lot of the vehicles compatible.

"Best tell all the Craftworld warhosts to go home then, they're not allowed to fight together. "
When was the last time you saw a Craftworld Warhost with both a Fire Dragon and Banshee Aspect warrior in the *same squad*. I've never seen it.

"Swordwind" is translated, in some sources, as 'tempest of blades'. I've seen it used to refer to 'Death by 1000 cuts' or '1000 swords'. Perhaps that's not the standard translation. I had meant the 'Death by 1000 cuts' term. I guess it was bad.

"The goalpost moving is strong with this one."
The original goalpost: Aspect Warriors don't combine different Aspects within a single squad because [reason]. but they *DO* combine multiple Aspects in a single Warhost.

Your followup: That's inconsistent. And you're wrong because Eldar *DO* combine multiple Aspects in a single Warhost *all the time*.

My response: Eldar *DO* combine multiple Aspects in a single Warhost, but they don't combine different Aspects within a single squad.

What goalpost shifted?

Bharring wrote:


What goalpost shifted?

The fact that you continue to jump between "combined arms is terrible" and "combined arms is great".

Pick. One.

40k's abstracted rules and how units operate in fluff are two very, very different things.

This is offtopic.

Alright folks, back on topic now please.

[Edit: I thought combined arms/mixed squads were OT for Primaris, but mod just said it wasnt. So removing.]

I want a small squad transport, basically a Razorback. It doesn't even need to be a Grav tank. Make it a wheeled transport for all I care. Only give it some light weapons though. I would like to see something like a twin Plasma Incinerator or two on it. Don't go crazy with weapons like the Repulsor. It should be cheap (150 pts or less).

I wouldn't mind seeing new bikes. The current kit came out so long ago it is disgusting. No Grav bikes though. Give them bikes or an ATV/quad. But really, the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway. They would have to do something really unique to be remotely necessary.

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Lastly, a dedicated, power-weapon using close combat squad would be nice. Preferably with some mobility. Maybe just an Inceptor variant.

The thing is, for both Inceptors and Aggressors, these could be handled with a simple upgrade sprue. Both kits are already designed to fit two different weapons, just add a third or fourth one.

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

They aren't. Aggressors are more equal to centurions than terminators. Terminators are Veterans and units with the heaviest armor. Essentially upgraded tacticals with better equipment, and far more experience. Aggressors are currently Devastators with some added guns equal to that of a centurion. Abliet much cheaper.

the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway.

Not really. Inceptors are meant for assault weapons. Bikes were both a close combat unit and a shooty unit, hit and run was their main tactic for it and recharging back in and out of combat.

Bharring wrote:
Oh and:
-Well, maybe base Primaris (Intercessors, Reivers, maybe not Aggressors, etc) can fit in Rhinos and Pods.

-gravis armor will gain +2 Sv, deepstrike, and option for a heavy weapon per 3.
-reivers will have their grav chute to provide 12" M
-aggressors will have option to swap out their flamestorm gaunlets for seige drills with options for flamer/meltagun
-intercessors will have option to take 1 heavy, 1 special, and 1 combi weapon in addition to their grenade launcher for every 5 man.
-primaris will gain a thunderfire cannon-landspeeder hybrid
-primaris will gain jetbikes for sure because [REASONS] and the lore about scarcity of jetbikes in the imperium will be retconned ('the techpriests of mars under cawl found the stc in their library for a jetbike')

We all know where this primaris load of poo is going to take us - it's going to replace and make obsolete all SM line as we know it. We just don't know when and how fast.

Think about INNER CIRCLE PRIMARIS MARINE OF THE DARK ANGELS. Think about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

They aren't. Aggressors are more equal to centurions than terminators. Terminators are Veterans and units with the heaviest armor. Essentially upgraded tacticals with better equipment, and far more experience. Aggressors are currently Devastators with some added guns equal to that of a centurion. Abliet much cheaper.

Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster. Aggressors are Anti-Infantry at range, Anti-Heavy at close range. That fits the profile of Terminators (4/5 of which equip a Storm Bolter, which has even less shots than an Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet), especially given their close combat weapons are effectively the same. I don't see Veteran Primaris being much of a thing beyond the Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment. About the only niche that Aggressors don't fill that Terminators can do is straight up 100% CC variants, like TH/SS Terminators.

the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway.

Not really. Inceptors are meant for assault weapons. Bikes were both a close combat unit and a shooty unit, hit and run was their main tactic for it and recharging back in and out of combat.

Bikes are high speed special weapon squads. The Chainsword only brings them on level with an Inceptor if they take it. Inceptors aren't slouches in CC either. Their charging ability shouldn't be forgotten, and they pack a decent amount of close combat attacks.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Except where armour, invuln, and deep strike are concerned Aggressors come up wonderfully short. Not remotely close to being a viable Termie alternative in their current loadout. Primaris thunder hammer, storm shield and +1 attack would help.

Bremon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Except where armour, invuln, and deep strike are concerned Aggressors come up wonderfully short. Not remotely close to being a viable Termie alternative in their current loadout. Primaris thunder hammer, storm shield and +1 attack would help.

I won't disagree with that. The ability to deep strike then would probably make up the difference. Their armor does provide +1T, which sort of evens out with the Armor, but the Invulnerable is definitely lacking. I would love to see Hammer and Shield Aggressors though.

Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster. Aggressors are Anti-Infantry at range, Anti-Heavy at close range. That fits the profile of Terminators (4/5 of which equip a Storm Bolter, which has even less shots than an Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet), especially given their close combat weapons are effectively the same. I don't see Veteran Primaris being much of a thing beyond the Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment. About the only niche that Aggressors don't fill that Terminators can do is straight up 100% CC variants, like TH/SS Terminators.

I disagree. You missed my previous comment. I said they were more comparable to Centurions than termies.

Termies fufill the Veteran Heavy Infantry. I don't see them going down that route entirely.

Aggressors are currently classified as devastators.

Termies also have deep strike, and weapon kits. They also have their invulnrable and +2 saves. Which I do not see them upping on aggressors.

I would love to see Hammer and Shield Aggressors though.

They would look stupid. Aggressors look silly as is.

"Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster"
Depends on how you kit them. In theory, Heavy Bolter Devs are anti-infantry. GW might not have done their math right, but that's clearly the intention.

I'd like to see some dedicated long range shooting guys and actual melee units. Maybe a variant of Aggressors with Lascannons? Inceptors with melee weapons? Something like that.

Bharring wrote:
"Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster"
Depends on how you kit them. In theory, Heavy Bolter Devs are anti-infantry. GW might not have done their math right, but that's clearly the intention.

Pretty much only one of their weapons is dedicated Anti-Infantry. Everything else is for shooting big stuff.

Aren’t Centurions just “fixed” Terminators anyways? I really think Aggressors were meant to be the Terminators of the Primaris line, just more reasonable than actual Terminator stats.

Also, I think Aggressors with Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (or Lightning Claws!) could look very cool, with maybe not-so-massive fists.

 Stormonu wrote:
Aren’t Centurions just “fixed” Terminators anyways? I really think Aggressors were meant to be the Terminators of the Primaris line, just more reasonable than actual Terminator stats.

Also, I think Aggressors with Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (or Lightning Claws!) could look very cool, with maybe not-so-massive fists.

Those monstrosities are fixed terminators?

what...

Whilst I think that the Primaris fluff is dumb and Guilliman coming back is basically the worst idea GW ever had, I still don't think there is need to be super dogmatic about the fluff. The Primaris shaking up the squad structures of the Space Marines is a good thing. The developers really shouldn't be limited by some guy deciding decades ago that Space Marine company has these specific squads with this specific gear or that jet bikes are super rare. Changing those things really do not fundamentally alter the setting, they're just details and if the sculptors can make more interesting models if those details are changed, then that's what they should do.

In fact, in many ways I see the Primaris aesthetic as a return to the origins of the space marines. The normal guys are more plain like their Rogur Trader counterparts.

Also.

Rogue Trader era Inceptors:


Rogue Trader marines and their Repulsor:


And hopefully we will soon get a new version of the jet bike:

Rouge trader seemed to be a wild time to be alive.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Rouge trader seemed to be a wild time to be alive.

LOL. That "rogue trader era repulsor" you speak of is an example of scratch building models page from white dwarf, with that particular model being made out of a empty deodorant stick bottle.

Reemule wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:


Implementing these would make most of the regular SM obsolete,

Ohh dear. Another one that doesn't know how the movie Titanic ends...

If this is a reference to something within the film I'm lost.

 skchsan wrote:
LOL. That "rogue trader era repulsor" you speak of is an example of scratch building models page from white dwarf, with that particular model being made out of a empty deodorant stick bottle.

Yes, everyone knows that. But Space Marines had grav tanks back then. And now they have again. Sure enough, they took their time with the official model, but it is finally here.

 Valkyrie wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:


Implementing these would make most of the regular SM obsolete,

Ohh dear. Another one that doesn't know how the movie Titanic ends...

If this is a reference to something within the film I'm lost.

I think the idea is that it is really obvious how the film ends, as it is the most famous thing about the ship. The general attitude towards Primaris is that they are meant as a complete replacement for regular marines, so regular marines disappearing is as inevitable as the Titanic sinking.

 Crimson wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
LOL. That "rogue trader era repulsor" you speak of is an example of scratch building models page from white dwarf, with that particular model being made out of a empty deodorant stick bottle.

Yes, everyone knows that. But Space Marines had grav tanks back then. And now they have again. Sure enough, they took their time with the official model, but it is finally here.

*Looks at Land Speeders

You could also make skimmer tanks using the vehicle design rules in 3rd-4th Ed. That beautiful time before "no-model-no-rules".

Aggressors are so insanely visually superior to Centurions, I'd like to see what could be done with weapon loadouts to make them the Nu-Terminators. Make an assault variant and give their fists big underslung Chainfists (or just lightning claws) and mount some sort of Inceptor-styled weapon on a back mount for ranged fire? Maybe each one could mount a Heavy Flamer instead of the grenade launchers?

Definitely some kind of entirely Heavy Flamer/Frag Cannon/Heavy Bolter armed close-in heavy support unit of Hellblasters.

Or simply give specialists to Intercessors so they are Tactical Squads.

Gtlimg gunner intercessors. Just take that gun of the turrentgunner on the repulsor and give that to the whole squad.

Gitdakka wrote:
Gtlimg gunner intercessors. Just take that gun of the turrentgunner on the repulsor and give that to the whole squad.

I actually would prefer if guys toting such heavy weapons would wear Gravis armour, it seems suited for carrying big guns. Just have them hold them with both hands. The Gravis armour actually is a good design, but the giant mittens that the Aggressors have are not the best.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Hard pass on jet bikes or any more hover tanks. That's a 30k thing and represents the central theme of 40k, that the Horus Heresy was a tragic event that hobbled mankind. I'm so sick of all this lost tech coming back, it's robbing the setting of what makes it unique.

I agree, and id like to see more tradional imperial vehicles sized up for primaris. But the grav and hover stuff needs to be held in check. The changes to the setting are already very questionable.

I want marine vehicles to go full grav. It sets them nicely apart from the IG vehicles.

 Crimson wrote:
I want marine vehicles to go full grav. It sets them nicely apart from the IG vehicles.

I see your point. Though what sets marines apart from Xenos vehicles at that point?

It would create quite a separation, marines seeming almost alien in comparison to humans

 fraser1191 wrote:
Though what sets marines apart from Xenos vehicles at that point?

Mainly that they look very different. All imperial vehicles have that crude boxy look, Repulsor included, while no xenos (apart Orks who have no grav) have that.

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Though what sets marines apart from Xenos vehicles at that point?

Mainly that they look very different. All imperial vehicles have that crude boxy look, Repulsor included, while no xenos (apart Orks who have no grav) have that.

Fair enough.

Has there been any mention on what the campaign after Vigilus is? I assume the second book will have a large chaos release as opposed to marines

I want some sort of assault primaris squad, perhaps melee inceptors, or "assault intercessors", some sort of devastator aggressors, and some melta carrying squad. Having aggresors to be able to switch between bolters, flamers or melta covers the last. And perhaps heavy weapon intercessors? I'd like grav to be reworked. Not the STUPID OP thing of 7th, but having a workable niche.

 Crimson wrote:
I want marine vehicles to go full grav. It sets them nicely apart from the IG vehicles.

I could see that. There isn't a ton of difference when you sit a Rhino next to a Chimera. Plus, Grav means they will have fly, so they won't suffer as many of the issues of the Land Raider or other tracked Marine vehicles.

I just hope they don't use the Repulsor as the basis for all the eventual Primaris vehicles. It is way too big. I want something that is the size of a Rhino to form the basis for most other vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kithail wrote:
I want some sort of assault primaris squad, perhaps melee inceptors, or "assault intercessors", some sort of devastator aggressors, and some melta carrying squad. Having aggresors to be able to switch between bolters, flamers or melta covers the last. And perhaps heavy weapon intercessors? I'd like grav to be reworked. Not the STUPID OP thing of 7th, but having a workable niche.

Hellblasters essentially are Heavy Weapon Intercessors though.

 Crimson wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Though what sets marines apart from Xenos vehicles at that point?

Mainly that they look very different. All imperial vehicles have that crude boxy look, Repulsor included, while no xenos (apart Orks who have no grav) have that.

Grav does seem more in line with the Marine's "lightning-fast strike force", meant to get in, terrorize the enemy and move on. The guard is the trundling force that crushes you underfoot with tracked vehicles and plodding machines.

And as mentioned, the imperium tends to have a crude look to their grav, whereas Eldar are "graceful" and the Tau seem to be sliding towards battlesuits and away from skimmers.

A rhino replacement for primaris seems like the biggest problem for primaris at the moment, footslogging with units that want to get close isn't great, especially when you can't assault and shoot outside of a few weapon loadouts.
I like the idea of reiver quads, maybe in squads of 3-9. Give the quads a 12" movement, a twin carbine and the reivers their combat blades. Give them a fall back and shoot and/or charge ability and you've got a nice mobile anti chaff unit which should look pretty badass to boot.
Giving intercessors and reivers access to one plasma and combi plasma per squad would help out those units a great deal.

Bharring wrote:
"The amount of self-contradiction here is hilarious. You're deliberately acting like two different sub-units cant work together. That's the entire underlining theory about combined arms warfare."
A Fire Dragon and a Banshee can't work together the way a modern soldier with a Machine Gun and a Rifle can.

A Fire Dragon Shrine and a Banshee Shrine can - and do - work together the way a modern infantry unit and modern tank can. That's what "Swordwind" is all about.

The Aspects *do* go to war together, but they don't intermix units like modern soldiers or 40k Marines do.

Not intermixing is exactly why Aspect Warriors work, as they actually have specific jobs they need to do. Obviously the quality of the job has varied, but compare that to Marines where you get like 3 units for the same role but only one is good, or saying that you can take multiple weapons for flexibility, which would make sense if you picked the upgrades based on the army you were facing.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I want a small squad transport, basically a Razorback. It doesn't even need to be a Grav tank. Make it a wheeled transport for all I care. Only give it some light weapons though. I would like to see something like a twin Plasma Incinerator or two on it. Don't go crazy with weapons like the Repulsor. It should be cheap (150 pts or less).

I wouldn't mind seeing new bikes. The current kit came out so long ago it is disgusting. No Grav bikes though. Give them bikes or an ATV/quad. But really, the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway. They would have to do something really unique to be remotely necessary.

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Lastly, a dedicated, power-weapon using close combat squad would be nice. Preferably with some mobility. Maybe just an Inceptor variant.

The thing is, for both Inceptors and Aggressors, these could be handled with a simple upgrade sprue. Both kits are already designed to fit two different weapons, just add a third or fourth one.

I would dig an atv/sxs wheeled vehicle for primaris. razorback equiv should be 100pts for chassis & "normal" primaris weapons a quad ironhail or something cool looking.

Crimson wrote:Whilst I think that the Primaris fluff is dumb and Guilliman coming back is basically the worst idea GW ever had, I still don't think there is need to be super dogmatic about the fluff. The Primaris shaking up the squad structures of the Space Marines is a good thing. The developers really shouldn't be limited by some guy deciding decades ago that Space Marine company has these specific squads with this specific gear or that jet bikes are super rare. Changing those things really do not fundamentally alter the setting, they're just details and if the sculptors can make more interesting models if those details are changed, then that's what they should do.

In fact, in many ways I see the Primaris aesthetic as a return to the origins of the space marines. The normal guys are more plain like their Rogur Trader counterparts.

Also.

Rogue Trader era Inceptors:


Rogue Trader marines and their Repulsor:


And hopefully we will soon get a new version of the jet bike:

hitting all the right memberberries.
it's like GW is doing this on purpose? retro is cool.

fraser1191 wrote:Rouge trader seemed to be a wild time to be alive.

vortex, tanglefoot & hallucinogen grenades were sooo much fun. you'd just show up to game store w whatever models you had and no one cared about anything but the bat-gak insanity on the table.

Sterling191 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

A Fire Dragon and a Banshee can't work together the way a modern soldier with a Machine Gun and a Rifle can.

Best tell all the Craftworld warhosts to go home then, they're not allowed to fight together.

They can't. A Banshee and Fire Dragon squad are separate units, likely fielded in completely different "divisions" of the Eldar Warhost. They aren't part of the squad itself, able to provide support on the spot. Specialized units is a fething moronic concept that needs to die as it makes no sense. Giving everybody in a squad the same gun is asking for that squad to die the second combat isn't going their way. It'd be like outfitting a unit of (US) Marines purely with Gustavs. Sure they'll kill the gak out of tanks, but they only have a couple rounds of ammunition before they're completely vulnerable, have zero ability to participate in a prolonged fight, and are incredibly vulnerable of being overrun. This is even worse in 40k where you have to deal with hordes numbering in the millions which mindlessly charge into melee. Mono-loadouts are bad and make no sense at all when one looks at even early 20th century armies.

 Crimson wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Gtlimg gunner intercessors. Just take that gun of the turrentgunner on the repulsor and give that to the whole squad.

I actually would prefer if guys toting such heavy weapons would wear Gravis armour, it seems suited for carrying big guns. Just have them hold them with both hands. The Gravis armour actually is a good design, but the giant mittens that the Aggressors have are not the best.

I drop the mittens for the Assault Bolters from the Inceptor kit, looks way, way better overall

 Wyzilla wrote:

They can't. A Banshee and Fire Dragon squad are separate units, likely fielded in completely different "divisions" of the Eldar Warhost.

Wrong.

It's really amusing how obsessed with transferring tabletop rules to fluff some folks are.

Dont they have like separate temples, that often hate each other like the s spears and dark reapers?

Karol wrote:
Dont they have like separate temples, that often hate each other like the s spears and dark reapers?

It's mostly analogous to inter-branch rivalry, mixed with emo space elf politics. Once a warhost is called it all gets set aside cause gak needs killing.

At the end of the day they're all war-priests to the same god.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

They can't. A Banshee and Fire Dragon squad are separate units, likely fielded in completely different "divisions" of the Eldar Warhost.

Wrong.

It's really amusing how obsessed with transferring tabletop rules to fluff some folks are.

No, I'm right. Per Eldar novels and organization according to the Codex fluff, they aren't fielded in mixed squads. An Aspect squad consists of a mono-aspect, headed by the exarch which heads the particular shrine of that squad. They fight alongside each other, but a Striking Scorpion unit consists purely of Striking Scorpions. They do not have a Dark Reaper to provide suppression or a Fire Dragon to supply anti-tank support in the squad itself.

I don't know I read a book about an eldar farseer from one of the craftworlds, who was an ex dark reaper herself and she hated the s spears, so much that she was sending anyone who runes told here could become an s spear in the future to their deaths. She even sold the s spear autarch to the eldar to multilate in the arena. along some non pro dark reaper farseers. Seems a bit more then inter-branch rivalry to me.

Maybe more like DEA and CIA trying to kill each other dudes in Honduras or something like that.

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, I'm right. Per Eldar novels and organization according to the Codex fluff, they aren't fielded in mixed squads. An Aspect squad consists of a mono-aspect, headed by the exarch which heads the particular shrine of that squad. They fight alongside each other, but a Striking Scorpion unit consists purely of Striking Scorpions. They do not have a Dark Reaper to provide suppression or a Fire Dragon to supply anti-tank support in the squad itself.

Squads and battlefield units arent the same thing. That's the whole point of Autarchs: to unify and deploy a warhost into ad-hoc elements based on the tactical needs of the situation from available Aspect Warriors, Guardians and Wraith forces. Exarchs, Warlocks and Spiritseers serve as junior officers / NCOs to their respective folks and the end result is a rounded deployment comprised of specialists supported by basic infantry and war machines of various types.

The Craftworlds don't send a single team of a single Aspect to fight a battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
I don't know I read a book about an eldar farseer from one of the craftworlds, who was an ex dark reaper herself and she hated the s spears, so much that she was sending anyone who runes told here could become an s spear in the future to their deaths. She even sold the s spear autarch to the eldar to multilate in the arena. along some non pro dark reaper farseers. Seems a bit more then inter-branch rivalry to me.

Maybe more like DEA and CIA trying to kill each other dudes in Honduras or something like that.

That's not remotely the norm, anymore than say the Flesh Tearers and their assholery are the norm for Astartes.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, I'm right. Per Eldar novels and organization according to the Codex fluff, they aren't fielded in mixed squads. An Aspect squad consists of a mono-aspect, headed by the exarch which heads the particular shrine of that squad. They fight alongside each other, but a Striking Scorpion unit consists purely of Striking Scorpions. They do not have a Dark Reaper to provide suppression or a Fire Dragon to supply anti-tank support in the squad itself.

Squads and battlefield units arent the same thing. That's the whole point of Autarchs: to unify and deploy a warhost into ad-hoc elements based on the tactical needs of the situation from available Aspect Warriors, Guardians and Wraith forces.

Which doesn't change that they aren't a unified structure. They are completely divergent, overspecialized units that outside of their exact niche need to be bailed out by allies. This kind of organization is utterly moronic and reduces your ability to spread out your forces as the lesser the density of your lines, the more vulnerable the Aspects are to falling to threats they are completely incapable of dealing with. It's fething idiotic with Eldar, it was fething idiotic with the Legions, and it sure as hell shouldn't infest the Space Marine line any further. Pre-Primaris Codex structure made perfect sense as it was ultimately just modeled after modern infantry.

The flaw of this and why it's stupid of course is that for marines especially, it reduces their ability to effectively spread out over a wider area, and forces them to concentrate which increases their vulnerability to threats such as artillery/bombardment. Intercessors can't reliably do their own thing because if they run into a single enemy tank they're completely screwed - barring dodging the traverse rate of the turret, clambering onto the tank and throwing a krak grenade inside they have no means to even threaten it. Meanwhile a tactical squad equipped for multi-purpose warfare would simply get into a position where their specialist/heavy weapon support would quickly and effectively neutralize the armor. Same goes with Devastators - those boltgun marines are there to fend them off from advancing infantry trying to assault the sqaud. They can pin and pick off infantry while the devastators can continue to provide long range support with weapons that could neither be used safely or effectively up close like a boltgun.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which doesn't change that they aren't a unified structure.

Incorrect. Warlocks, Exarchs and Autarchs provide that. It's literally what the Path of Command is all about.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They are completely divergent, overspecialized units that outside of their exact niche need to be bailed out by allies.

Which is why a single team of Banshees doesn't go out to fight an entire war, so stop acting like they do.

Sure, but I already own several companies of Space Marines. Might as well pick up some Super Space Marines.

Sterling191 wrote:
Realistically, most of this can be handled by adding weapon options to existing squads.

Let Rievers/Intercessors take Primaris Flamers/Meltas, Hellblasters Missiles/Lascannons and Aggressors/Inceptors some flavor of melee weapon (buffed to reflect their smaller model count per unit).

Flavor with a Predator-equivalent and some bikes and you're golden.

It would be cool if the space marine became the flexible infantry with limited types of units but hugely varied weapon options.

Not every army needs uber specialized units in their own unique armor and vehicle lol.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which doesn't change that they aren't a unified structure.

Incorrect. Warlocks, Exarchs and Autarchs provide that. It's literally what the Path of Command is all about.

No, it isn't a unified structure. A unified structure would be if every single Aspect Squad was not in fact mono-aspect, but mainly comprised of Dire Avengers with other aspects supplementing the fighting capability WITHIN the smallest organizational level. Otherwise you need to yell at those Fire Dragons that are out of range of the Leman Russes about to turn the Dire Avengers into chunky salsa to hoof it, get ready to fire, kill the armor, all while crossing your fingers that they get there in time before the Avengers are reduced to chunky salsa.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They are completely divergent, overspecialized units that outside of their exact niche need to be bailed out by allies.

Which is why a single team of Banshees doesn't go out to fight an entire war, so stop acting like they do.

Second time someone is gonna say OFF TOPIC.

I’ve reported every Eldar post from the last couple of pages

So.... how about those Primaris Marines, then?

@Wyzilla

In defense of the Eldar way of war, they don't fight in miles wide battlefield because their armies are tiny. Each Craftworld might have at most of few billions of Eldars most of which aren't combattants and they can't afford to send more than fraction of their forces on a single battlefield at a time. Even if the Craftworld itself is attacked its unlikely that more than 50% of its armed forces will be there to defend it, the others being spread around fighting other dangers. We are thus talking about a few thousand warriors on any battlefield at a time. Plus, Eldars can take the risk of specialisation since they count on actually seeing into the future to prepare and win their battles. The idea of everybody being at the perfect spot at the perfect time all the time is basically how Eldars want to fight and can fight. In such a context specialisation isn't such a big vulnerability. For Space Marines though, it's a problem. They don't have people capable of such pinpoint divination abilities to make their battle plans. They should have diversity, but then again, tabletop gameplay seem to reward specialisation more than tactical flexibility since all the squad must shoot at the same target. WIth split fire to all, tactical flexibility would be more...flexible.

If you guys keep talking like this GW with release an eldar Deathwatch where you can mix squads

Honestly that's what Ynnari should have done, let craft worlds have mixed units then let DE fly around in boats


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Second time someone is gonna say OFF TOPIC.

I’ve reported every Eldar post from the last couple of pages

So.... how about those Primaris Marines, then?

I'm expecting the next kits to include melee inceptors where you can make one a captain. Just like custodes boxes, comes with 3 models but one can made into a character, which forces you to buy a second box more or less

Final warning: The topic is Primaris Space Marines, not Eldar or other factions.

So from the thread:

Primaris need transports, fast attack options, heavy support options for anti-infantry, more elite choices that deal with close combat, heavy infantry that fufifill the role of terminators, Reivers need close combat weaponry that make them actually terrifying. Multi-range captain models, Primaris Techmarines, More Primaris LTS (joke), more primaris special characters that are specifically been a primaris the whole time, jump pack primaris that accomplish the role of an assault marine, skimmer primaris craft, primaris battle tank, primaris elite units.

And a lot of asks for Primaris to be more configurable.

Although whether this is "Swap all weapons in squad" or "Swap one or two guy's weapons" is hotly debated.

 sfshilo wrote:

It would be cool if the space marine became the flexible infantry with limited types of units but hugely varied weapon options.

Isn't that what the Space Marine line has been for. . . ever? It's been dudes-in-power-armor-with-various-weapons since the dawn of 40K as far as I can tell. What's strange to me is how many people seem to NOT like that, and want more specialized squads. I recall a lot of that sentiment when people were building their Hersey armies.

Until Primaris.

I actually like that the Primaris units are more specialised and the armour is different between different roles. It makes painting and modelling them more fun, when everything is not just the same blokes with different weapons.

Transport wise, I don't see why Primaris cannot ride the same transports Primarchs could in the Horus Heresy. Primaris are not bigger than Primarchs right!?

I hope they change it so Primaris are not so big that they take up additional transport spaces and to stop the transport segregation.

The fact that Primarchs and terminators can ride in a Landraider together but Primaris can't fit is silly.

Tygre wrote:Transport wise, I don't see why Primaris cannot ride the same transports Primarchs could in the Horus Heresy. Primaris are not bigger than Primarchs right!?

I hope they change it so Primaris are not so big that they take up additional transport spaces and to stop the transport segregation.

The fact that Primarchs and terminators can ride in a Landraider together but Primaris can't fit is silly.

the single stupidest thing about primaris.

Yeah i agree my land raiders got a point cost reduction but the one unit i want to ride in it can't?

So fething stupid.

Even primaris defenders have a hard time defending the mastadon or land raiders not being able to carry primaris.

If I would complain about anything is that the armor types for intercessors are far to uniform i wish we had varying marks of armor, far more obvious bionics. The fact that we are limited in equipment and poses is another issue as they are... well too easy to build.

Reivers, for example, seem like they should be scouts, and some other units take their place. (on the topic of scouts how the helk do primaris handle neophytes now?!)

Primaris Neophytes could just be normal space marines, decreased in cost and lacking as much veterancy as other armies, keeping mini-marines in the armies but as a less pronounced representation.

Primaris LTs are a dime a dozen, i don't know why they don't make a single stupid kit and make bajillions of money cause I would buy it in a heart beat. Or helk a new primaris captain kit.

They just need more options for their special characters or something similar to the eldar. Maybe we can finally have our heavy ranged hq choice?

Well, GW has had a year and a half to fix it, and haven't. So I don't think it is ever going to happen. Stupid? Yes. Going to change? No.

And it is pretty awful that the cheapest transport for Primaris is over three times as expensive as the basic transport for Regular Marines. And the model itself is twice as expensive. The Repulsor is the single highest priced dedicated transport available. The next highest is the $60 Goliath Truck(which isn't even the only transport for GSC either, since they can ride in the Chimera). That is a $20 difference. I just don't know how GW expects to sell Primaris when that is the case.

They need a non-Land Raider sized transport. More than literally any other thing. And it needs to be priced in USD at $50 or less. Seriously. And if I had my way, it would just be a replacement for the Rhino-chassis. Basic model is a 10-man Transport with a twin Bolt Rifle (maybe make it upgradeable to a twin Plasma Incinerator or a Las-Talon). Make a 5-6-man Transport version that comes with Twin Onslaught Cannons or Twin Lascannons. I don't even care if they want to continue this moronic Primaris-Only Transport bs either. As long as I have cheap transports both in pts and $$$, I don't really care.

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

That's what Space Wolves and Grey Knights do, and it works out...okay...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

That's what Space Wolves and Grey Knights do, and it works out...okay...

Grey knights sorta do sorta don't.

They have a very interesting system of apprientice leader decades before they are even released upon the world.

Space wolves gather a squad of youngbloods with one veteran throw them at the enemy and see which one lives.

I think having a separate unit would benefit primaris greatly... taht could be the old tactical squad, so they could keep the range, but over time just phase them out so they are just three squads. (assault, devastator, and tacticals all being the newbies of the chapter)

 Asherian Command wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

That's what Space Wolves and Grey Knights do, and it works out...okay...

Grey knights sorta do sorta don't.

They have a very interesting system of apprientice leader decades before they are even released upon the world.

Space wolves gather a squad of youngbloods with one veteran throw them at the enemy and see which one lives.

I think having a separate unit would benefit primaris greatly... taht could be the old tactical squad, so they could keep the range, but over time just phase them out so they are just three squads. (assault, devastator, and tacticals all being the newbies of the chapter)

Eh, they kind of missed their mark making a Primaris Scout by not making the Stalker Bolt Rifle a Sniper Rifle (at least not without it costing 2CP and then 1CP per turn). I would really like to see full Power Armor Marines with Camo Cloaks like the Heresy Era ones. Honestly, if you look at the units for Primaris Marines, they sort of pair with a lot of the Heresy units anyway.

Intercessors - Legion Tactical Squad
Hellblasters - Legion Tactical Support Squad or Legion Heavy Support Squad
Aggressors - Legion Destroyer Squad
Reivers - Legion Despoiler Squad
Inceptors - I can't really find a good one. I guess Legion Destroyer Squads with Jump Packs?

I could definitely see room for a Legion Recon Squad equivalent, Legion Breacher Squad equivalent, and a more definitive Legion Heavy Support Squad equivalent. But gimme an Aggressor variant with double Meltafists and a Krakstorm Grenade Launcher on their backs, and I will be happy. Maybe even an Inceptor with an anti-Tank gun. But I like Aggressors. Runnin' guns for the Emprah!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, GW has had a year and a half to fix it, and haven't. So I don't think it is ever going to happen. Stupid? Yes. Going to change? No.

And it is pretty awful that the cheapest transport for Primaris is over three times as expensive as the basic transport for Regular Marines. And the model itself is twice as expensive. The Repulsor is the single highest priced dedicated transport available. The next highest is the $60 Goliath Truck(which isn't even the only transport for GSC either, since they can ride in the Chimera). That is a $20 difference. I just don't know how GW expects to sell Primaris when that is the case.

They need a non-Land Raider sized transport. More than literally any other thing. And it needs to be priced in USD at $50 or less. Seriously. And if I had my way, it would just be a replacement for the Rhino-chassis. Basic model is a 10-man Transport with a twin Bolt Rifle (maybe make it upgradeable to a twin Plasma Incinerator or a Las-Talon). Make a 5-6-man Transport version that comes with Twin Onslaught Cannons or Twin Lascannons. I don't even care if they want to continue this moronic Primaris-Only Transport bs either. As long as I have cheap transports both in pts and $$$, I don't really care.

While it is true that Primaris do need a basic transport vehicle, that is affordable and low on points. The big issue is not stepping on the toes of the Rhino or the Razorback, GW are trying to make the Primaris options different while also familiar to the current Marine line.

A Primaris Razorback would be great, and really help a pure Primaris force punch a bit better, but I doubt we'll see it. I think as far as GW are concerned the Repulsor is the only vehicle that Primaris need.

An open topped fast skimmer that operates like a drop ship would be nice, and different to what the Marines have now... but would be to close to the Dark Eldar's Raider.

How about an upscaled scout land speeder. And there could be two versions a no weapons one aka new rhino, and a msu one aka the new razorback.

 Asherian Command wrote:
They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

The training process of vanilla Space Marine is very short. In two or three years, a recruit is ready to become a scout and in two or three years, their scout training is over. It make sense since Space Marines aren't numerous and suffer casualties often. Primaris Marines were technically all fully trained Space Marines ready for action, but frozen. So, at the current moment in time, all of them are experimented enough and even veteran of a Crusade. It's probable that reinforcement or new Primaris Marine will simply be trained for a longer period of time before integrating their Chapter forces which is possible thanks to the fact their number is still high. In that, they will be more like Grey Knights or SoB.

I love the new primaris and have a fair number of them already in my list. Just bought the new Imperial fist force and am going all primaris crimson fists using the Deathwatch codex. So in addition to what I can already field in terms of strong infantry I think we need 3 things...

1. A dedicated anti vehicle option, I know we have hellblasters but something with las/missile weaponry would be handy. At the moment I fill the gap with multiple venerable dreads.

2. Something decent in close combat, not sure what it could be but even a more elite version of normal reivers would be great. Give them the option to take a modified chainsword/chain weapon which has a negative ap modifier. Also give the sergeant the ability to take power weapon etc.

3. Maybe another fast unit, this could be a vehicle or transport or even a bike style unit as others have suggested.

About a primaris transport I think it will be a type Razorback. Most Intercessor units are 5 man or 6 man. We don't need a transport for 10 man because of Repulsor. Don't think GW will do a Rhino for primaris because they don't want that we leave the Repulsor.

But I think the most important thing for Primaris now is a push in CC. Or a new shock troop or CC weapons for the Reivers, at least a - 1AP for the knifes and maybe give the Sargeant a Power Fist.

I don’t think you can describe the Primaris range as new anymore. Most of it has been out for a year and a half.

Alex_85 wrote:
About a primaris transport I think it will be a type Razorback. Most Intercessor units are 5 man or 6 man. We don't need a transport for 10 man because of Repulsor. Don't think GW will do a Rhino for primaris because they don't want that we leave the Repulsor.

But I think the most important thing for Primaris now is a push in CC. Or a new shock troop or CC weapons for the Reivers, at least a - 1AP for the knifes and maybe give the Sargeant a Power Fist.

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

The combat knives are mechanically identical to chainswords.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

The combat knives are mechanically identical to chainswords.

I get that, but from an appearance standpoint on my minis, Chainswords look so much cooler and for a unit that is supposed to "Terrorize" oppsing units, I would be much more terrified of a buzzing hand held chainsaw, than an overgrown Bowie knife

Whose scarier "Crocodile Dundee" or "Leatherface"

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

The combat knives are mechanically identical to chainswords.

I get that, but from an appearance standpoint on my minis, Chainswords look so much cooler and for a unit that is supposed to "Terrorize" oppsing units, I would be much more terrified of a buzzing hand held chainsaw, than an overgrown Bowie knife

Whose scarier "Crocodile Dundee" or "Leatherface"

Then glue chainswords on your Reivers. That's what I did. From WYSIWYG perspective it is perfectly fine, as the rules are identical.

 Crimson wrote:

Then glue chainswords on your Reivers. That's what I did. From WYSIWYG perspective it is perfectly fine, as the rules are identical.

^^^^^

The knives are modeled well enough you can just clip of the blades and put pretty much anything on top of the guard that you want. It's a flat contact point that's absolutely perfect for conversions.

I've done it with chainswords, pistols, combi-weapons, carbines, you name it.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Then glue chainswords on your Reivers. That's what I did. From WYSIWYG perspective it is perfectly fine, as the rules are identical.

^^^^^

The knives are modeled well enough you can just clip of the blades and put pretty much anything on top of the guard that you want. It's a flat contact point that's absolutely perfect for conversions.

I've done it with chainswords, pistols, combi-weapons, carbines, you name it.

You're right and that's what I'm, going to do, my Reivers will wield Chainswords

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

The combat knives are mechanically identical to chainswords.

I get that, but from an appearance standpoint on my minis, Chainswords look so much cooler and for a unit that is supposed to "Terrorize" oppsing units, I would be much more terrified of a buzzing hand held chainsaw, than an overgrown Bowie knife

Whose scarier "Crocodile Dundee" or "Leatherface"

Australians scare me a lot so I dunno...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

The combat knives are mechanically identical to chainswords.

I get that, but from an appearance standpoint on my minis, Chainswords look so much cooler and for a unit that is supposed to "Terrorize" oppsing units, I would be much more terrified of a buzzing hand held chainsaw, than an overgrown Bowie knife

Whose scarier "Crocodile Dundee" or "Leatherface"

Australians scare me a lot so I dunno...

It's not Australians that want to kill you, it's all of their animals that want to kill you

Are you more scared of that 7-foot-tall Super Soldier in bright Blue/Red/whatever armor with bright bling and a giant gun sneaking through your house to kill you with a knife you can't hear, or a chainsword you can hear a mile off? I mean, the chainsword would *definitely* give them away.

To the deaf people or people with a blindfold on, as the others would see him first.

Wait, that's a stupid question.

Bharring wrote:
Are you more scared of that 7-foot-tall Super Soldier in bright Blue/Red/whatever armor with bright bling and a giant gun sneaking through your house to kill you with a knife you can't hear, or a chainsword you can hear a mile off? I mean, the chainsword would *definitely* give them away.

To the deaf people or people with a blindfold on, as the others would see him first.

Wait, that's a stupid question.

They don't need to start the Chainsword until they're close, and based on videos with Chainswords they...don't really appear to be that loud.

epronovost wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

The training process of vanilla Space Marine is very short. In two or three years, a recruit is ready to become a scout and in two or three years, their scout training is over. It make sense since Space Marines aren't numerous and suffer casualties often. Primaris Marines were technically all fully trained Space Marines ready for action, but frozen. So, at the current moment in time, all of them are experimented enough and even veteran of a Crusade. It's probable that reinforcement or new Primaris Marine will simply be trained for a longer period of time before integrating their Chapter forces which is possible thanks to the fact their number is still high. In that, they will be more like Grey Knights or SoB.

They didn’t have scouts pre heresy I believe. You got your suit of power armour and were off to battle.

robbienw wrote:
I don’t think you can describe the Primaris range as new anymore. Most of it has been out for a year and a half.

Marines have been around 30 years. Primaris, timewise, are still in diapers. So, yeah, new.

New compared to standard marines or anything else in 40k yeah.

They aren't a new range anymore though. They have been out for 1.5 years!

I would love it if all the major tournaments and tournament circuits just up and decided to allow Primaris Marines to fit in any Space Marine transport. If everyone is playing it that way, what is GW going to do but relent after awhile. If not, who cares. SM need a little help anyways.

Before any additional units hit, I'd love it if they tweaked the rules on each of the current units. Many of these are super minor, but if a new wave of Primaris are to come, I'd love to see it include the small things that will make the line just a bit more full. In order of importance from least to possibly most:

- Intercessors should be equipped with heavy bolt pistols and their frag grenades should have the fragstorm profile - Cawl upgraded everything but forgot those bits? Super lame
- Inceptors seem honestly pretty powerful and what they need most is support auras that can keep up, which is sort of what the new units (we think) might be able to do
- Hellblasters probably should stop paying a premium for their inferior alternative weapon options - make them worth that premium or make them cheaper
- Repulsor definitely got better with the drop in the turret weapon cost (both varieties) and the reduction in twin las, but now we're at a weird spot with the lastalon and normal onslaught. Talon is the same cost as the twin LC, but has half the range - should probably be 32-35. Normal onslaught is exactly half the shots of the heavy, so it should probably be exactly half the cost, saving a point (meh, it's something)
- Aggressors of the flamer variety should probably have the option to take the fragstorm grenade launcher as well
- Redemptor needs the ability to move and fire heavy weapons without a penalty - the point drops were awesome, but it's still competing internally with a literally boatload of other Dreadnought options. The super plasma cannon should probably just be heavy 6 or have increased damage on both profiles
- Reivers need to actually be disruptive, either by tweaking their special wargear and rules to last longer or be more impactful, or to make them killier for their cost

Solving these means the next releases don't have to try and address gaps that a current unit should have covered already. Sure, changing the pistol profile on the Intercessors doesn't solve anything (still think it should happen), but that's why it's at the top of the list. Getting the Redemptor into place for elite/tank/monster hunting where mobility doesn't affect its accuracy would fill the same gap that an MBT would, so why is an MBT needed? Reivers being deadly in melee would instantly make them the Primaris melee option rather than requesting a whole new unit to do the same job that this one was supposed to do.

Which means the only things I want to see expanding the Primaris line are fast, mobile HQ options, a cheap barebones land speed storm style transport, and an infantry unit with a true anti-tank weapon.

Honestly I'm shocked Intercessors don't get Heavy Bolt Pistols. It just makes so little sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I'm shocked Intercessors don't get Heavy Bolt Pistols. It just makes so little sense.

The models don't have heavy bolt pistols.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I'm shocked Intercessors don't get Heavy Bolt Pistols. It just makes so little sense.

The models don't have heavy bolt pistols.

All their pistols are in their holsters outside a build for the Sergeant. Can you even really tell?

The Heavy Bolt Pistols don't even look much different to the regular one that the Intercessor dude holds.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I'm shocked Intercessors don't get Heavy Bolt Pistols. It just makes so little sense.

The models don't have heavy bolt pistols.

LOL. Not sure if this is meant to be a serious retort or not but either way, thanks for the laugh.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

All their pistols are in their holsters outside a build for the Sergeant. Can you even really tell?

The Heavy Bolt Pistols don't even look much different to the regular one that the Intercessor dude holds.

But the pistols that are not in holsters are clearly different, the heavy ones are much bigger. So yes, I can tell.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

All their pistols are in their holsters outside a build for the Sergeant. Can you even really tell?

The Heavy Bolt Pistols don't even look much different to the regular one that the Intercessor dude holds.

But the pistols that are not in holsters are clearly different, the heavy ones are much bigger. So yes, I can tell.

Well my Mk3 Marines have different Bolters than my Mk4 ones. Should those have different stats too?

The answer is no. Universal consistency makes more sense.

Bremon wrote:

LOL. Not sure if this is meant to be a serious retort or not but either way, thanks for the laugh.

Perfectly serious. This is how GW makes their rules. Model makers make some bits, and then the rule guys come up with rules for those bits. So that's is the reason why the rules for these pistols are different. (Granted, the bolt carbines and auto bolt rifles look different too, yet have same rules. This, however, is an anomaly.)

Furthermore, I'm really not sure why Intercessors should have the better pistols too, they already outperform the Reivers in most regards. If anything, it is the Reivers who would need a buff.