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"For someone who plays Eldar you have an odd opinion of Aspect Warriors."
Aspect Warriors would be better if they weren't hobbled by the nature of what it means to be Aspect Warriors.

Imagine a Dark Reaper squad and a Guardian squad. Now imagine two sets of half a Dark Reaper squad with half a Guardian Squad working directly with them.

Imagine if instead of a Fire Dragon squad and five Dire Avenger squads, you had six squads of mostly Dire Avengers with one Melta Gun. They'd get a lot more done.

The nature of the Aspect system is such that each Aspect perfects it's Aspect of war. Combining those Aspects is more effective at war - even the Aspects believe this, and this is what Swordwind is all about. But the Craftworlders are too obsessed with Perfection. So instead of learning how to operate a heavy weapon and an infantry weapon, and working in teams of combined disciplines to get stuff done, they each obsess over one way to fight, and work in teams of others perfecting the same style.

It's not more efficient. It's a handicap built into what they are. Being a Space Elf Ninja Samurai doesn't mean you're 100% better than a Human in every way (just most ways). This is one way in which the Eldar nature of obsession hurts them.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
I would like to see some nasty dedicated close combat unit

Or primaris terminators.

Spoiler:

Honestly I would love to see termies get upgraded. Close combat units get a bit of a flavor touch, and for some primaris heroes rise to the task that started out as primaris.


For close combat units I would love to see arm weapons.

Spoiler:

There are so many options they could go with but On my priority list are termies with toughness 5 and primaris stats.

All of this looks good to me
Id

"Primaris Terminator"?
Instead of making a Termie- equivelent, I'd rather they just Primarized Termies themselves. New sculpts to fit the new scale and better process. Maybe some new options too. But I hope they don't lose their current feel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The first one looks like Plasma Cannon/Power Fist, and the second one looks like Storm Bolter/Chainfist?

The first one looks like Plasma Cannon/Power Fist, and the second one looks like Storm Bolter/Chainfist?

It looks like a minigun as you can see the ammo belt going into it.

Which looks kind of awesome tbh

the second looks like a shotgun and a chain fist.

I thought it looked like there was containment housing behind the ammo chain, but it could be either. Usually when I think minigun, I think open-air barrels for air movement. Which would not be a given, obviously.

That said, Termies can already take a minigun (Assault Cannon). And it already looks amazing on them.

The second could be a Storm-bolter-modded-to-shotgun. If I were to see a model with that on the tabletop, I'm assuming Storm Bolter unless told otherwise.

Both look amazing. Primaris Termies could look amazing if they don't monkey with what makes Termies Termies.

Bharring wrote:
I thought it looked like there was containment housing behind the ammo chain, but it could be either. Usually when I think minigun, I think open-air barrels for air movement. Which would not be a given, obviously.

That said, Termies can already take a minigun (Assault Cannon). And it already looks amazing on them.

The second could be a Storm-bolter-modded-to-shotgun. If I were to see a model with that on the tabletop, I'm assuming Storm Bolter unless told otherwise.

Both look amazing. Primaris Termies could look amazing if they don't monkey with what makes Termies Termies.

That we can agree on. Primaris Termies need to be the best looking models for primaris TBH

He has his own version of an assault cannon (the artist is hammk)



Honestly concepts for primaris are sleek but still faithful to 40k.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I love the idea of jet bikes. I think they'd look great, look at custodes jet bikes...

Honestly I want jet bikes, at the same time I don't want them on flight stems. Maybe if they had the Puck like piece that the repulsor has otherwise its a pass

I am fine with jetbikes coming back the fact they disappeared at all for marines is dumb.

Ensure they have good equipment and a high toughness and access to close combat weapons and i'll be happy to have my white scars have a reason to be played.

I'm not gonna kid myself I'd buy them regardless. Though I'd prefer the bikes to have that Puck base instead. Inceptors and their flight stems were pretty frustrating

Bharring wrote:


Imagine a Dark Reaper squad and a Guardian squad. Now imagine two sets of half a Dark Reaper squad with half a Guardian Squad working directly with them.

Imagine if instead of a Fire Dragon squad and five Dire Avenger squads, you had six squads of mostly Dire Avengers with one Melta Gun. They'd get a lot more done.

The nature of the Aspect system is such that each Aspect perfects it's Aspect of war. Combining those Aspects is more effective at war - even the Aspects believe this, and this is what Swordwind is all about. But the Craftworlders are too obsessed with Perfection. So instead of learning how to operate a heavy weapon and an infantry weapon, and working in teams of combined disciplines to get stuff done, they each obsess over one way to fight, and work in teams of others perfecting the same style.

The amount of self-contradiction here is hilarious. You're deliberately acting like two different sub-units cant work together. That's the entire underlining theory about combined arms warfare.

Aspects routinely go to war together. That's the entire point of the Aspects: master a particular art of warfare so that it can be deployed at the opportune moment against the optimal target.

"The amount of self-contradiction here is hilarious. You're deliberately acting like two different sub-units cant work together. That's the entire underlining theory about combined arms warfare."
A Fire Dragon and a Banshee can't work together the way a modern soldier with a Machine Gun and a Rifle can.

A Fire Dragon Shrine and a Banshee Shrine can - and do - work together the way a modern infantry unit and modern tank can. That's what "Swordwind" is all about.

The Aspects *do* go to war together, but they don't intermix units like modern soldiers or 40k Marines do.

Unfortunately it seems like Guilliman thinks “well when we had mono units we took over the galaxy, and then I wrote a book and had a nap and now the wheels are falling off...time to hit the reset button!”

In actuality it’s just a matter of the high lords of terra at Nottingham HQ not wanting to anger all the chapter masters sending them tithes.

Bharring wrote:

A Fire Dragon and a Banshee can't work together the way a modern soldier with a Machine Gun and a Rifle can.

Best tell all the Craftworld warhosts to go home then, they're not allowed to fight together.

Bharring wrote:

A Fire Dragon Shrine and a Banshee Shrine can - and do - work together the way a modern infantry unit and modern tank can. That's what "Swordwind" is all about.

That's not remotely what the Swordwind is. The Swordwind is a specific strategic doctrine primarily employed by Biel-Tan, notably a single massed decapitation strike on an enemy target using the entirety of their committed force.

It's an Eldar Mont'ka strike (or more accurately the Tau Mont'Ka doctrine is an independent evolution of the Swordwind).

Bharring wrote:

The Aspects *do* go to war together, but they don't intermix units like modern soldiers or 40k Marines do.

The goalpost moving is strong with this one.

The underlying point is about mixed-capability squads, not combined arms in general. I'm arguing that mixed-capability squads make more sense, and are what's done today.

The point about Aspects is that it was pointed out that they're my favorites (after Demi-Company Marines, actually, but that's not so apparent from my posting), and they *don't* do mixed-capability squads.

The post you're referring to is in reference to that. Reapers aren't dispersed across Guardian squads or Dire Avenger squads because that's not how Aspects work, culturally. I would expect Reapers dispersed across Guardian squads to be a much more effective fighting force than one with a Reaper squad and a bunch of Guardian squads.

I wholeheartedly agree that Aspects routinely go to war together. Each Aspect is woefully unequipped to handle a "real" engagement themselves. They are perfecting playing their one part. But the way they work on mastering that one Aspect prevents them from comingling at the squad level.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind the age of some of the Marine kits when we try to predict what is next for Primaris (on the assumption that we’re slowly moving to an all-Primaris range).

BIKERS. The models are ancient, the scout ones slightly less so, and the bikes themselves are very static compared to recent releases. I could totally see a Reiver Biker unit in the pipeline and maybe a Jetbike unit.

LAND SPEEDERS - Again, very old models. Doesn’t take too much to imagine the new grav tech leads to a better light skimmer.

ASSAULT UNITS - Its the obvious missing link in the Primaris army. This might just be Aggressor suits that have more of an ‘Assault Terminator’ feel to them or some sort of Intercessor assault unit.

RHINO UPGRADE - I’m sceptical that they’ll completely do away with the Rhino and Land Raider for marines. But I could see Cawl coming up with a modification on the existing model or a new mark that can carry Primaris models (could even just be fluff and rules) which then makes a lot of the vehicles compatible.

"Best tell all the Craftworld warhosts to go home then, they're not allowed to fight together. "
When was the last time you saw a Craftworld Warhost with both a Fire Dragon and Banshee Aspect warrior in the *same squad*. I've never seen it.

"Swordwind" is translated, in some sources, as 'tempest of blades'. I've seen it used to refer to 'Death by 1000 cuts' or '1000 swords'. Perhaps that's not the standard translation. I had meant the 'Death by 1000 cuts' term. I guess it was bad.

"The goalpost moving is strong with this one."
The original goalpost: Aspect Warriors don't combine different Aspects within a single squad because [reason]. but they *DO* combine multiple Aspects in a single Warhost.

Your followup: That's inconsistent. And you're wrong because Eldar *DO* combine multiple Aspects in a single Warhost *all the time*.

My response: Eldar *DO* combine multiple Aspects in a single Warhost, but they don't combine different Aspects within a single squad.

What goalpost shifted?

Bharring wrote:


What goalpost shifted?

The fact that you continue to jump between "combined arms is terrible" and "combined arms is great".

Pick. One.

40k's abstracted rules and how units operate in fluff are two very, very different things.

This is offtopic.

Alright folks, back on topic now please.

[Edit: I thought combined arms/mixed squads were OT for Primaris, but mod just said it wasnt. So removing.]

I want a small squad transport, basically a Razorback. It doesn't even need to be a Grav tank. Make it a wheeled transport for all I care. Only give it some light weapons though. I would like to see something like a twin Plasma Incinerator or two on it. Don't go crazy with weapons like the Repulsor. It should be cheap (150 pts or less).

I wouldn't mind seeing new bikes. The current kit came out so long ago it is disgusting. No Grav bikes though. Give them bikes or an ATV/quad. But really, the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway. They would have to do something really unique to be remotely necessary.

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Lastly, a dedicated, power-weapon using close combat squad would be nice. Preferably with some mobility. Maybe just an Inceptor variant.

The thing is, for both Inceptors and Aggressors, these could be handled with a simple upgrade sprue. Both kits are already designed to fit two different weapons, just add a third or fourth one.

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

They aren't. Aggressors are more equal to centurions than terminators. Terminators are Veterans and units with the heaviest armor. Essentially upgraded tacticals with better equipment, and far more experience. Aggressors are currently Devastators with some added guns equal to that of a centurion. Abliet much cheaper.

the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway.

Not really. Inceptors are meant for assault weapons. Bikes were both a close combat unit and a shooty unit, hit and run was their main tactic for it and recharging back in and out of combat.

Bharring wrote:
Oh and:
-Well, maybe base Primaris (Intercessors, Reivers, maybe not Aggressors, etc) can fit in Rhinos and Pods.

-gravis armor will gain +2 Sv, deepstrike, and option for a heavy weapon per 3.
-reivers will have their grav chute to provide 12" M
-aggressors will have option to swap out their flamestorm gaunlets for seige drills with options for flamer/meltagun
-intercessors will have option to take 1 heavy, 1 special, and 1 combi weapon in addition to their grenade launcher for every 5 man.
-primaris will gain a thunderfire cannon-landspeeder hybrid
-primaris will gain jetbikes for sure because [REASONS] and the lore about scarcity of jetbikes in the imperium will be retconned ('the techpriests of mars under cawl found the stc in their library for a jetbike')

We all know where this primaris load of poo is going to take us - it's going to replace and make obsolete all SM line as we know it. We just don't know when and how fast.

Think about INNER CIRCLE PRIMARIS MARINE OF THE DARK ANGELS. Think about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

They aren't. Aggressors are more equal to centurions than terminators. Terminators are Veterans and units with the heaviest armor. Essentially upgraded tacticals with better equipment, and far more experience. Aggressors are currently Devastators with some added guns equal to that of a centurion. Abliet much cheaper.

Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster. Aggressors are Anti-Infantry at range, Anti-Heavy at close range. That fits the profile of Terminators (4/5 of which equip a Storm Bolter, which has even less shots than an Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet), especially given their close combat weapons are effectively the same. I don't see Veteran Primaris being much of a thing beyond the Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment. About the only niche that Aggressors don't fill that Terminators can do is straight up 100% CC variants, like TH/SS Terminators.

the purpose of bikes is taken up by Inceptors anyway.

Not really. Inceptors are meant for assault weapons. Bikes were both a close combat unit and a shooty unit, hit and run was their main tactic for it and recharging back in and out of combat.

Bikes are high speed special weapon squads. The Chainsword only brings them on level with an Inceptor if they take it. Inceptors aren't slouches in CC either. Their charging ability shouldn't be forgotten, and they pack a decent amount of close combat attacks.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Except where armour, invuln, and deep strike are concerned Aggressors come up wonderfully short. Not remotely close to being a viable Termie alternative in their current loadout. Primaris thunder hammer, storm shield and +1 attack would help.

Bremon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Primaris Terminators are basically covered by Aggressors, though there needs to be a heavy weapon variant. Or perhaps even a Melta variant. What Primaris lack is man-portable anti-vehicle/heavy weapons. Hellblasters just don't cut it. I think Aggressors would be a great platform to put a Melta weapon on (their advance and shoot ability begs for a Melta weapon). Maybe even with an alternate backpack launcher (Krakstorm grenade launcher maybe?)

Except where armour, invuln, and deep strike are concerned Aggressors come up wonderfully short. Not remotely close to being a viable Termie alternative in their current loadout. Primaris thunder hammer, storm shield and +1 attack would help.

I won't disagree with that. The ability to deep strike then would probably make up the difference. Their armor does provide +1T, which sort of evens out with the Armor, but the Invulnerable is definitely lacking. I would love to see Hammer and Shield Aggressors though.

Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster. Aggressors are Anti-Infantry at range, Anti-Heavy at close range. That fits the profile of Terminators (4/5 of which equip a Storm Bolter, which has even less shots than an Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet), especially given their close combat weapons are effectively the same. I don't see Veteran Primaris being much of a thing beyond the Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment. About the only niche that Aggressors don't fill that Terminators can do is straight up 100% CC variants, like TH/SS Terminators.

I disagree. You missed my previous comment. I said they were more comparable to Centurions than termies.

Termies fufill the Veteran Heavy Infantry. I don't see them going down that route entirely.

Aggressors are currently classified as devastators.

Termies also have deep strike, and weapon kits. They also have their invulnrable and +2 saves. Which I do not see them upping on aggressors.

I would love to see Hammer and Shield Aggressors though.

They would look stupid. Aggressors look silly as is.

"Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster"
Depends on how you kit them. In theory, Heavy Bolter Devs are anti-infantry. GW might not have done their math right, but that's clearly the intention.

I'd like to see some dedicated long range shooting guys and actual melee units. Maybe a variant of Aggressors with Lascannons? Inceptors with melee weapons? Something like that.

Bharring wrote:
"Devastators are Anti-Tank/Materials/Monster"
Depends on how you kit them. In theory, Heavy Bolter Devs are anti-infantry. GW might not have done their math right, but that's clearly the intention.

Pretty much only one of their weapons is dedicated Anti-Infantry. Everything else is for shooting big stuff.

Aren’t Centurions just “fixed” Terminators anyways? I really think Aggressors were meant to be the Terminators of the Primaris line, just more reasonable than actual Terminator stats.

Also, I think Aggressors with Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (or Lightning Claws!) could look very cool, with maybe not-so-massive fists.

 Stormonu wrote:
Aren’t Centurions just “fixed” Terminators anyways? I really think Aggressors were meant to be the Terminators of the Primaris line, just more reasonable than actual Terminator stats.

Also, I think Aggressors with Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (or Lightning Claws!) could look very cool, with maybe not-so-massive fists.

Those monstrosities are fixed terminators?

what...