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Sterling191 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, I'm right. Per Eldar novels and organization according to the Codex fluff, they aren't fielded in mixed squads. An Aspect squad consists of a mono-aspect, headed by the exarch which heads the particular shrine of that squad. They fight alongside each other, but a Striking Scorpion unit consists purely of Striking Scorpions. They do not have a Dark Reaper to provide suppression or a Fire Dragon to supply anti-tank support in the squad itself.

Squads and battlefield units arent the same thing. That's the whole point of Autarchs: to unify and deploy a warhost into ad-hoc elements based on the tactical needs of the situation from available Aspect Warriors, Guardians and Wraith forces.

Which doesn't change that they aren't a unified structure. They are completely divergent, overspecialized units that outside of their exact niche need to be bailed out by allies. This kind of organization is utterly moronic and reduces your ability to spread out your forces as the lesser the density of your lines, the more vulnerable the Aspects are to falling to threats they are completely incapable of dealing with. It's fething idiotic with Eldar, it was fething idiotic with the Legions, and it sure as hell shouldn't infest the Space Marine line any further. Pre-Primaris Codex structure made perfect sense as it was ultimately just modeled after modern infantry.

The flaw of this and why it's stupid of course is that for marines especially, it reduces their ability to effectively spread out over a wider area, and forces them to concentrate which increases their vulnerability to threats such as artillery/bombardment. Intercessors can't reliably do their own thing because if they run into a single enemy tank they're completely screwed - barring dodging the traverse rate of the turret, clambering onto the tank and throwing a krak grenade inside they have no means to even threaten it. Meanwhile a tactical squad equipped for multi-purpose warfare would simply get into a position where their specialist/heavy weapon support would quickly and effectively neutralize the armor. Same goes with Devastators - those boltgun marines are there to fend them off from advancing infantry trying to assault the sqaud. They can pin and pick off infantry while the devastators can continue to provide long range support with weapons that could neither be used safely or effectively up close like a boltgun.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which doesn't change that they aren't a unified structure.

Incorrect. Warlocks, Exarchs and Autarchs provide that. It's literally what the Path of Command is all about.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They are completely divergent, overspecialized units that outside of their exact niche need to be bailed out by allies.

Which is why a single team of Banshees doesn't go out to fight an entire war, so stop acting like they do.

Sure, but I already own several companies of Space Marines. Might as well pick up some Super Space Marines.

Sterling191 wrote:
Realistically, most of this can be handled by adding weapon options to existing squads.

Let Rievers/Intercessors take Primaris Flamers/Meltas, Hellblasters Missiles/Lascannons and Aggressors/Inceptors some flavor of melee weapon (buffed to reflect their smaller model count per unit).

Flavor with a Predator-equivalent and some bikes and you're golden.

It would be cool if the space marine became the flexible infantry with limited types of units but hugely varied weapon options.

Not every army needs uber specialized units in their own unique armor and vehicle lol.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which doesn't change that they aren't a unified structure.

Incorrect. Warlocks, Exarchs and Autarchs provide that. It's literally what the Path of Command is all about.

No, it isn't a unified structure. A unified structure would be if every single Aspect Squad was not in fact mono-aspect, but mainly comprised of Dire Avengers with other aspects supplementing the fighting capability WITHIN the smallest organizational level. Otherwise you need to yell at those Fire Dragons that are out of range of the Leman Russes about to turn the Dire Avengers into chunky salsa to hoof it, get ready to fire, kill the armor, all while crossing your fingers that they get there in time before the Avengers are reduced to chunky salsa.

 Wyzilla wrote:
They are completely divergent, overspecialized units that outside of their exact niche need to be bailed out by allies.

Which is why a single team of Banshees doesn't go out to fight an entire war, so stop acting like they do.

Second time someone is gonna say OFF TOPIC.

I’ve reported every Eldar post from the last couple of pages

So.... how about those Primaris Marines, then?

@Wyzilla

In defense of the Eldar way of war, they don't fight in miles wide battlefield because their armies are tiny. Each Craftworld might have at most of few billions of Eldars most of which aren't combattants and they can't afford to send more than fraction of their forces on a single battlefield at a time. Even if the Craftworld itself is attacked its unlikely that more than 50% of its armed forces will be there to defend it, the others being spread around fighting other dangers. We are thus talking about a few thousand warriors on any battlefield at a time. Plus, Eldars can take the risk of specialisation since they count on actually seeing into the future to prepare and win their battles. The idea of everybody being at the perfect spot at the perfect time all the time is basically how Eldars want to fight and can fight. In such a context specialisation isn't such a big vulnerability. For Space Marines though, it's a problem. They don't have people capable of such pinpoint divination abilities to make their battle plans. They should have diversity, but then again, tabletop gameplay seem to reward specialisation more than tactical flexibility since all the squad must shoot at the same target. WIth split fire to all, tactical flexibility would be more...flexible.

If you guys keep talking like this GW with release an eldar Deathwatch where you can mix squads

Honestly that's what Ynnari should have done, let craft worlds have mixed units then let DE fly around in boats


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Second time someone is gonna say OFF TOPIC.

I’ve reported every Eldar post from the last couple of pages

So.... how about those Primaris Marines, then?

I'm expecting the next kits to include melee inceptors where you can make one a captain. Just like custodes boxes, comes with 3 models but one can made into a character, which forces you to buy a second box more or less

Final warning: The topic is Primaris Space Marines, not Eldar or other factions.

So from the thread:

Primaris need transports, fast attack options, heavy support options for anti-infantry, more elite choices that deal with close combat, heavy infantry that fufifill the role of terminators, Reivers need close combat weaponry that make them actually terrifying. Multi-range captain models, Primaris Techmarines, More Primaris LTS (joke), more primaris special characters that are specifically been a primaris the whole time, jump pack primaris that accomplish the role of an assault marine, skimmer primaris craft, primaris battle tank, primaris elite units.

And a lot of asks for Primaris to be more configurable.

Although whether this is "Swap all weapons in squad" or "Swap one or two guy's weapons" is hotly debated.

 sfshilo wrote:

It would be cool if the space marine became the flexible infantry with limited types of units but hugely varied weapon options.

Isn't that what the Space Marine line has been for. . . ever? It's been dudes-in-power-armor-with-various-weapons since the dawn of 40K as far as I can tell. What's strange to me is how many people seem to NOT like that, and want more specialized squads. I recall a lot of that sentiment when people were building their Hersey armies.

Until Primaris.

I actually like that the Primaris units are more specialised and the armour is different between different roles. It makes painting and modelling them more fun, when everything is not just the same blokes with different weapons.

Transport wise, I don't see why Primaris cannot ride the same transports Primarchs could in the Horus Heresy. Primaris are not bigger than Primarchs right!?

I hope they change it so Primaris are not so big that they take up additional transport spaces and to stop the transport segregation.

The fact that Primarchs and terminators can ride in a Landraider together but Primaris can't fit is silly.

Tygre wrote:Transport wise, I don't see why Primaris cannot ride the same transports Primarchs could in the Horus Heresy. Primaris are not bigger than Primarchs right!?

I hope they change it so Primaris are not so big that they take up additional transport spaces and to stop the transport segregation.

The fact that Primarchs and terminators can ride in a Landraider together but Primaris can't fit is silly.

the single stupidest thing about primaris.

Yeah i agree my land raiders got a point cost reduction but the one unit i want to ride in it can't?

So fething stupid.

Even primaris defenders have a hard time defending the mastadon or land raiders not being able to carry primaris.

If I would complain about anything is that the armor types for intercessors are far to uniform i wish we had varying marks of armor, far more obvious bionics. The fact that we are limited in equipment and poses is another issue as they are... well too easy to build.

Reivers, for example, seem like they should be scouts, and some other units take their place. (on the topic of scouts how the helk do primaris handle neophytes now?!)

Primaris Neophytes could just be normal space marines, decreased in cost and lacking as much veterancy as other armies, keeping mini-marines in the armies but as a less pronounced representation.

Primaris LTs are a dime a dozen, i don't know why they don't make a single stupid kit and make bajillions of money cause I would buy it in a heart beat. Or helk a new primaris captain kit.

They just need more options for their special characters or something similar to the eldar. Maybe we can finally have our heavy ranged hq choice?

Well, GW has had a year and a half to fix it, and haven't. So I don't think it is ever going to happen. Stupid? Yes. Going to change? No.

And it is pretty awful that the cheapest transport for Primaris is over three times as expensive as the basic transport for Regular Marines. And the model itself is twice as expensive. The Repulsor is the single highest priced dedicated transport available. The next highest is the $60 Goliath Truck(which isn't even the only transport for GSC either, since they can ride in the Chimera). That is a $20 difference. I just don't know how GW expects to sell Primaris when that is the case.

They need a non-Land Raider sized transport. More than literally any other thing. And it needs to be priced in USD at $50 or less. Seriously. And if I had my way, it would just be a replacement for the Rhino-chassis. Basic model is a 10-man Transport with a twin Bolt Rifle (maybe make it upgradeable to a twin Plasma Incinerator or a Las-Talon). Make a 5-6-man Transport version that comes with Twin Onslaught Cannons or Twin Lascannons. I don't even care if they want to continue this moronic Primaris-Only Transport bs either. As long as I have cheap transports both in pts and $$$, I don't really care.

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

That's what Space Wolves and Grey Knights do, and it works out...okay...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

That's what Space Wolves and Grey Knights do, and it works out...okay...

Grey knights sorta do sorta don't.

They have a very interesting system of apprientice leader decades before they are even released upon the world.

Space wolves gather a squad of youngbloods with one veteran throw them at the enemy and see which one lives.

I think having a separate unit would benefit primaris greatly... taht could be the old tactical squad, so they could keep the range, but over time just phase them out so they are just three squads. (assault, devastator, and tacticals all being the newbies of the chapter)

 Asherian Command wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Edit: That is a very good question on the Neophytes thing. Are new Marines just inducted directly into Power Armor now? Reivers are elite troops. It isn't unheard of, that is how Space Wolves do it, after all.

They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

That's what Space Wolves and Grey Knights do, and it works out...okay...

Grey knights sorta do sorta don't.

They have a very interesting system of apprientice leader decades before they are even released upon the world.

Space wolves gather a squad of youngbloods with one veteran throw them at the enemy and see which one lives.

I think having a separate unit would benefit primaris greatly... taht could be the old tactical squad, so they could keep the range, but over time just phase them out so they are just three squads. (assault, devastator, and tacticals all being the newbies of the chapter)

Eh, they kind of missed their mark making a Primaris Scout by not making the Stalker Bolt Rifle a Sniper Rifle (at least not without it costing 2CP and then 1CP per turn). I would really like to see full Power Armor Marines with Camo Cloaks like the Heresy Era ones. Honestly, if you look at the units for Primaris Marines, they sort of pair with a lot of the Heresy units anyway.

Intercessors - Legion Tactical Squad
Hellblasters - Legion Tactical Support Squad or Legion Heavy Support Squad
Aggressors - Legion Destroyer Squad
Reivers - Legion Despoiler Squad
Inceptors - I can't really find a good one. I guess Legion Destroyer Squads with Jump Packs?

I could definitely see room for a Legion Recon Squad equivalent, Legion Breacher Squad equivalent, and a more definitive Legion Heavy Support Squad equivalent. But gimme an Aggressor variant with double Meltafists and a Krakstorm Grenade Launcher on their backs, and I will be happy. Maybe even an Inceptor with an anti-Tank gun. But I like Aggressors. Runnin' guns for the Emprah!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, GW has had a year and a half to fix it, and haven't. So I don't think it is ever going to happen. Stupid? Yes. Going to change? No.

And it is pretty awful that the cheapest transport for Primaris is over three times as expensive as the basic transport for Regular Marines. And the model itself is twice as expensive. The Repulsor is the single highest priced dedicated transport available. The next highest is the $60 Goliath Truck(which isn't even the only transport for GSC either, since they can ride in the Chimera). That is a $20 difference. I just don't know how GW expects to sell Primaris when that is the case.

They need a non-Land Raider sized transport. More than literally any other thing. And it needs to be priced in USD at $50 or less. Seriously. And if I had my way, it would just be a replacement for the Rhino-chassis. Basic model is a 10-man Transport with a twin Bolt Rifle (maybe make it upgradeable to a twin Plasma Incinerator or a Las-Talon). Make a 5-6-man Transport version that comes with Twin Onslaught Cannons or Twin Lascannons. I don't even care if they want to continue this moronic Primaris-Only Transport bs either. As long as I have cheap transports both in pts and $$$, I don't really care.

While it is true that Primaris do need a basic transport vehicle, that is affordable and low on points. The big issue is not stepping on the toes of the Rhino or the Razorback, GW are trying to make the Primaris options different while also familiar to the current Marine line.

A Primaris Razorback would be great, and really help a pure Primaris force punch a bit better, but I doubt we'll see it. I think as far as GW are concerned the Repulsor is the only vehicle that Primaris need.

An open topped fast skimmer that operates like a drop ship would be nice, and different to what the Marines have now... but would be to close to the Dark Eldar's Raider.

How about an upscaled scout land speeder. And there could be two versions a no weapons one aka new rhino, and a msu one aka the new razorback.

 Asherian Command wrote:
They haven't brought it up at all. And there is no lore currently on it.

It would be rather stupid to throw them immediately into primaris suits until they have at least master the first steps of the process.

The training process of vanilla Space Marine is very short. In two or three years, a recruit is ready to become a scout and in two or three years, their scout training is over. It make sense since Space Marines aren't numerous and suffer casualties often. Primaris Marines were technically all fully trained Space Marines ready for action, but frozen. So, at the current moment in time, all of them are experimented enough and even veteran of a Crusade. It's probable that reinforcement or new Primaris Marine will simply be trained for a longer period of time before integrating their Chapter forces which is possible thanks to the fact their number is still high. In that, they will be more like Grey Knights or SoB.

I love the new primaris and have a fair number of them already in my list. Just bought the new Imperial fist force and am going all primaris crimson fists using the Deathwatch codex. So in addition to what I can already field in terms of strong infantry I think we need 3 things...

1. A dedicated anti vehicle option, I know we have hellblasters but something with las/missile weaponry would be handy. At the moment I fill the gap with multiple venerable dreads.

2. Something decent in close combat, not sure what it could be but even a more elite version of normal reivers would be great. Give them the option to take a modified chainsword/chain weapon which has a negative ap modifier. Also give the sergeant the ability to take power weapon etc.

3. Maybe another fast unit, this could be a vehicle or transport or even a bike style unit as others have suggested.

About a primaris transport I think it will be a type Razorback. Most Intercessor units are 5 man or 6 man. We don't need a transport for 10 man because of Repulsor. Don't think GW will do a Rhino for primaris because they don't want that we leave the Repulsor.

But I think the most important thing for Primaris now is a push in CC. Or a new shock troop or CC weapons for the Reivers, at least a - 1AP for the knifes and maybe give the Sargeant a Power Fist.

I don’t think you can describe the Primaris range as new anymore. Most of it has been out for a year and a half.

Alex_85 wrote:
About a primaris transport I think it will be a type Razorback. Most Intercessor units are 5 man or 6 man. We don't need a transport for 10 man because of Repulsor. Don't think GW will do a Rhino for primaris because they don't want that we leave the Repulsor.

But I think the most important thing for Primaris now is a push in CC. Or a new shock troop or CC weapons for the Reivers, at least a - 1AP for the knifes and maybe give the Sargeant a Power Fist.

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

 Freeflow44 wrote:

Just let me put Chainswords on Reivers, the Chainsword is one of the, if not most iconic 40K weapons, let me put them on the Reivers

The combat knives are mechanically identical to chainswords.