Some folks were discussing making suggestions to the rules team and/or writing a homebrew codex that isn’t utter dog so I figured I’d go ahead and create a thread for it so as to not derail the tactics thread.
If the thread already exists, please ignore this one.
Here are some of my thoughts, which are by no means original:
1.) I really see no good reason the R&H army list should be so restricted. A ramshackle band of mutants is but one option for a R&H list, or one aspect of it. There’s no reason to exclude Stormhammers, Shadowswords, Vendettas, etc. Things like ministorum priests and crusaders obviously don’t belong, which is where you substitute those for chaos versions that need not be identical.
2.) Orders. WTH, FW? Sorry, in their current and previous iterations, covenants were no substitute for orders. +1S on the charge is just not as worthwhile as say, +1S all the time (Catachans) PLUS orders. If there is a command structure, there are officers giving orders. Perhaps units like mutants couldn’t be easily ordered around, so the flavorful chaos stuff would shake up the army and play more traditionally like R&H.
2A.) I guess the potential “danger” is that R&H list gets most of the Guard stuff AND the unique flavorful chaos stuff, but I honestly don’t have a problem with that. FW has this (I’m pretty sure overtly stated) philosophy that R&H just should not be a very good army. This could be hearsay, but it’s certainly borne out by the army list (which could just coincidentally be terrible, given the minimal effort put into it etc.). The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
3.) The army would lose the characters and regimental traits that are a huge part of what make standard IG good. No Pask, no Harken, none of them. No Vengeance for Cadia, no Laurels of Command... you see where I’m going with this. These would all be replaced with chaos-themed stuff, to some degree. The 6th edition army list had awesome options, like the Ordnance trait that let you bombard targets along with your own units while they were engaged in combat - THAT is chaos!
4.) Relics and Stratagems: Should need no explanation. Any army without them blows.
5.) We don’t truly need every unit, in fairness. It could depend on the army list. Maybe let the covenants or warlord specialization determine the list. Or as an alternative, the way other armies have chapters or regiments, the R&H could have lists within a list. We can call them creeds, or something. They shouldn’t be too restrictive, just enough to give some flavor while preventing broken nonsense.
6.) I would love to get past the idea that Renegades are only one thing. For example, Renegades devoted to Khorne are just poor imitations of berzerkers, foregoing ranged firepower and tactics for the frothing horde approach for some pittance of a bonus in close combat. We’ve already seen examples with more creativity and nuance in the background fiction, such as the Blood Pact. Bloodthirsty madmen, sure, but not totally one dimensional.
I don’t know, that’s all I’ve got for now, I’ll think on this some more, but I’d love to hear from others, including those that are planning to put in the work to writing proper codices.
Since i am atm doing one, and potentially will post a PDF sometime later, i will try to start with the general idea of what i am doing and which approach i took.
The idea was to update the IA13 book into 8th edition, at this point there is no denying that the FW index did nothing for renegades except hurt the army.
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As for the suggestions allready:
1.) Restrictions are not inherently a bad thing, if done correctly. Imo a better acess to malcadors and machariuses would be a nice compensation aswell as daemon engines, if the correct arch demagogue is picked.
2.) Personally orders should be AM specific, however the covenant is no Order replacer that is true.
2.A) Again, IA 13 did show that it is and was possible to represent everything from propper traitor guardsmen to any other potential variety.
3.) Allready planning on covering this one, i will try and adapt the arch demagogic devotions. Aswell as creating further minescule charachters.
4.) ATM i am only really working on making the base list, Stratagems i have some ideas but to propperly get a view how somethings effect them i'd need more playtesters. (i have done 70 matches with the 8th index list, core issues are more along the line that we pay a hefty spike tax of 25% atleast in most cases, getting rid of that and reintroducing units that we lost in the transition is allready a improvement.)
5.) Reintroducing the old arch demagogic systems, (grenadiers only for Bloddy handed, plague zombies only if your demagogue is nurgle etc.) is solving that issue instantly.
6.) Khorne is the god of bloodshed, Khorne covenant should increase general performance in battle not just stabbing. That i agree with.
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Issues i have sofar with rewriting the IA13 book:
A.) warlord traits, some of them need an propper adaption and depending on how i write the Demagogue specialisations i need reworks, PM if you have any idea.
B.) I am toying around with the idea to deny R&H army traits and instead go with 3 doctrines which replace them:
1. Would be "Dug in", any Infantry unit that remained stationary gains +1 LD and +1 to saves, up to 2 times against shooting or psychic attacks, if the unit did not move at all during the turn/s. Additionally only up to a 3+ save. (the thought process is, that carapce armored veterans, disciples,etc should not be harder to shift through gunfire then terminators/marines.)
2. "Rioteers", All frag grenades automarically hit, additionally add +4 " on the range of any greanade and instead of 1 per unit now per 3 Squad members a greanade can be thrown rounding down. Vehicles that charge a enemy unit generate d3 autohits. If the charged unit is bigger then 10 models it generates 2d3 autohits additionally. Loses -1 Ld if a enemy vehicle is within 6".
3. "Fanatical Zealots" All charge/ advance rolls can be rerolled, additionally treat all rapidfire weapon as assult profile. Can never fall back, rerolls 1 to hit in melee.
C.) Two demagogic Traits give me a headache. Master of the horde beeing chief amongst them. Basically i want to keep the Replacement units but i also don't want to make it easily abusable to just swamp the enemy with militia units. Basically my idea sofar is that only milita can be brought back, that the militia can not be upgraded with militia training and needs to alteast number 20 per squad in order to be brought back. Also i am intending for militia squads only to be able to be brought back once, and only if the militia unit is not completely wiped. This is to allow counterplay.
The other arch demagogic devotion is the mutant overlord. Problematic there is the roll on the mutation chart, it seems to random. I however consider for a stratagem specific to the Mutant overlord that for 1cp he can predetermine the mutation roll for a mutant rabble. So basically he allows you to pick the mutation you get for Mutant Rabble, Big mutants (upgraded ogryn berserkers, and command squads of him)
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This is what i got sofar:
Further diversing Command squad disciples from regular disciples. Command squad disciples remain 6ppm however a Demagogue can never be targeted when within 3" of a command squad. Additionally it will be stronger influenced by the Arch demagogic choice. (mutant overlord gives them the mutation table, Blody handed reaver, will grant them hotshot guns, Primaris rogue which allows for rogue psyker beeing added to the squad.)
Disciples drop to 5ppm.
Renegade infantry veterans are a troop choice, they got the same stats as before and are 5ppm.
Militia squad:10-20 (up to 30 for Master of the horde) 3ppm. Gain a 5+ SV. Reintroduce Militatraining (not for master of the horde) for 1WS BS improvement for a flat cost of 10 ppm. (This was in the 7th edition book and incentiviced to not just spam MSU hordes since you could get bulk discounts) This also gives them guardsmen stats (well except the random Leadership) and makes them cost either 4ppm for a 10 man squad or 3.5ppm for a 20 man squad. Additionally: 1/10 can get a special weapon and 1/10 can get a heavy weapon. (It made zero sense that Fw allowed us in the index to give Militia potentially 4 plasma guns and 2 autocannons, it would also present an issue if milita training is back, therefore i feel like lowering the ammount of special weaponry is a good idea)
All good ideas IMHO, but it have a few small suggestions as well.
1. Errata R&H so that each unit receives the faction keyword of w/e god they serve so that something like Plague Ogryn can be useful.
2. In line with restrictions already restricted, armies aligned with Nurgle should be allowed access to Death Guard units.
3. Incorporate some of the units from the Black Fortress into the R&H like chaos Beastmen and Traitor Guard which just scream Renegade.
4. Maybe update the Renegade Militia so they have better saves. My thinking here is that just because they are Chaos doesn't mean they don't necessarily have guard training. An alternative would be to have Traitor Guard introduced as a step-between the Militia and the Disciples similar to the structure of IG (Conscript/Infantry/Elite).
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: All good ideas IMHO, but it have a few small suggestions as well.
1. Errata R&H so that each unit receives the faction keyword of w/e god they serve so that something like Plague Ogryn can be useful.
2. In line with restrictions already restricted, armies aligned with Nurgle should be allowed access to Death Guard units.
3. Incorporate some of the units from the Black Fortress into the R&H like chaos Beastmen and Traitor Guard which just scream Renegade.
4. Maybe update the Renegade Militia so they have better saves. My thinking here is that just because they are Chaos doesn't mean they don't necessarily have guard training. An alternative would be to have Traitor Guard introduced as a step-between the Militia and the Disciples similar to the structure of IG (Conscript/Infantry/Elite).
5. Return Apostate Preachers to the codex.
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1.) I'd be more for the IA13 approach of allwoing to mix covenants for a buff to a unit that bought them for points. But adding the mark (nurgle for covenanted units) would ertainly be a good thing.
2.) No. Infact i don't want the R&H index to just be abused for a CP crutch. Basically i think if we would allow such crossover the Renegades would lose all army traits and could not get a arch demagogic option. (this is to prevent malefic lord + Brimstone cancer situations.)
3.) Traitor guardsmen are incorporated via the adaptable milita, want them to be IG level, take the blody handed reaver and buy the upgrades in question, that are unlocked via your demagogue option
4..) allready did. 3ppm baseline with a 5+ save is now standard before you buy militia training. This is adapted out of IA 13 where militia units were also 3 pts but 2 pts cheaper then guardsmen but had to buy armor and better stats. The armor is now incororporated since IG squads and conscripts both have the 5+ save allready, therefore i decided that the 5+ save is now standard.
5.) were not in IA13, but a chaotic priest elite charachter seems like something that should be considered, maybee a significant boost to Morale / frightening enemy models? Alternatively just taking over the AM priest 1:1 for the same points.
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The_Real_Chris wrote: 'Stealer cult list is a good example. You can take anything in an allied IG detachment but don't get its regimental trait.
In short if you are adding stuff you are also taking stuff away.
For getting everything what do you lose?
You could do a renegade regiment just using a Chaosie regimental rule and having 'special' characters.
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
The baseline again i intend to use is the IA13. That means that there is significant corssover in the vehicle department, allbeit restricted to the simpler vehicles and or older more unreliable ones, like malcadors.
Secondly the demagogue options allow you to get a traitor guard equivalent in the IA13 book aswell as many other sidegrades.
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: They looked so nice and gave a little fluff as well as some pictures, now they are just so bland and tell you barely anything aside frome the rules...
TBF, the R&H list is asthethically something of the worst in that book.
You should've seen the entry on Decimators.
I think certain warlord doctrines/whatever could unlock more guard options and perhaps restrict the more extreme chaosy ones.
Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?
*Currently* what we gain for what we don't have access to is very little. I'd much rather just be able to use some regiment-less, Imperial-less IG list out of the codex. Which is probably what I will do if my friends are down to play against it alongside my World Eaters.
But I digress. There could also be restrictions, because the lack of resupply and maintenance of the most sophisticated units (whatever those are) could be a reason for a unit to be 0-1 in a detachment. Stormhammers, for example, could fit that criteria. Or Manticores or whatever.
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.
Ok... so what do they lose by doing so? if they become simply 'better guard' the imperials would have lost a long time ago. Whilst its nice to think I can have shadowswords covering my greater demon advance, why is it not that simple? Chaos defection seems to affect command and control and logistics. They get a new version of the former and very little of the latter. That affects both the officer and order system and the sort of armour you can maintain.
If it gets everything but more what is your answer to how?
Note you can always take Guard allies and just not get their regiment trait, so that covers the more exotic bits of kit. What is your main army trying to achieve in terms of theme and playstyle? What can't it achieve by being an IG army with a different paint scheme and some conversions?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: I think certain warlord doctrines/whatever could unlock more guard options and perhaps restrict the more extreme chaosy ones.
Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?
*Currently* what we gain for what we don't have access to is very little. I'd much rather just be able to use some regiment-less, Imperial-less IG list out of the codex. Which is probably what I will do if my friends are down to play against it alongside my World Eaters.
But I digress. There could also be restrictions, because the lack of resupply and maintenance of the most sophisticated units (whatever those are) could be a reason for a unit to be 0-1 in a detachment. Stormhammers, for example, could fit that criteria. Or Manticores or whatever.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Actually i think the following could apply:
Vendettas are a no go for R&H. Was so and should be so.
Valkyires should be available for Blody handead reavers and Heretek magos.
Arch heretic revolutionary and Mutant overlord should be able to expand their bonuses like curse of mutation and fanatic.
Master of the horde should get a limit on heavy support and militia training: No leman russ / basilisk sqauadrons, instead a limit of 1 per 1 Militia squad.
Rogue psyker covens should be 0-1 for non Primaris rogue witch arch demagogues. Additionally the malefic lord should be restricted to the primaris rogue whitch warlord.
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.
Ok... so what do they lose by doing so? if they become simply 'better guard' the imperials would have lost a long time ago. Whilst its nice to think I can have shadowswords covering my greater demon advance, why is it not that simple? Chaos defection seems to affect command and control and logistics. They get a new version of the former and very little of the latter. That affects both the officer and order system and the sort of armour you can maintain.
If it gets everything but more what is your answer to how?
No.
Again R&H was restricted, no vendettas f.e. no special baneblade variants, etc. NO ORDERS, f.e. in game turns however that meant that R&H had access to daemon engines like decimators or defilers depending on your Arch demagogic devotion.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: What exactly is a demagogue? I'm unfamiliar with this terminology
The head honcho, stuck in the command squad.
Edit: since this is a older edition he was in the command squad just like the Imperial Guard HQ was a command squad, unlike their IG counterpart though he could be split off and added to another unit if you so desired.
Ofcourse beeing now we are trying to update the list to 8th edition standarts we would need to split him off the command squad, which allready happened in the FW index.
I agree on the gunships, those are too specialized and should be excluded as well as the Baneblade variants (lore-wise I would suspect that more specialized equipment would require more investment in training which would give officials more time to weed out those susceptible to Chaotic influence). For the Nurgle covenent, the Zombies could be equated to poxwalkers.
How would you expand the curse of mutations for the mutant overlord though? And how would you update the bloody-handed weaver warlord since the militias already have a 5+ save?
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I agree on the gunships, those are too specialized and should be excluded as well as the Baneblade variants (lore-wise I would suspect that more specialized equipment would require more investment in training which would give officials more time to weed out those susceptible to Chaotic influence). For the Nurgle covenent, the Zombies could be equated to poxwalkers.
How would you expand the curse of mutations for the mutant overlord though? And how would you update the bloody-handed weaver warlord since the militias already have a 5+ save?
Fairly easily:
Blody handead Reaver get's a discount on militia training. He is anaywas forced to take it on all units he get's, so instead of the regular 10ppm the others pay he pays 5, he will also potentially get some mini charachter unlock like the whitch will gain the malefic lord.
Curse of mutation was 10ppm for ogryns. Expand it for 10ppm torwards Dicsiples, the ones that show true dedication to the mutant overlord.
Edit: i don't like poxwalkers and rather would let the 0-1 restriction in place whilest taking over the plague zombie entry. Remember they have a 4+FNP and can not be forced to do any morale checks, they will also get M4.
Edit 2: Renegade Grenadiers, the upgrade for veterans is for Blody handed reaver only and that is more then enough in conjunction with the discount on militia training for the blody handed reaver.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Would we expand the covenent of Nurgle to just be a flat 5+ FNP instead of having to be only against an attack of Str 4 or less?
TBF, you payed a flat 15 pts for a covenant . I'd say you should get a 6+ against all wounds, however it would need to be cheaper then.
What would you think if we would split the covenants into differing prices tho?
say 10pts for a covenant of nurgle, gain a 6+fnp?
etc.?
I would also add to that, that if you pay for a covenant of nurgle for a squad aswell as for the heretek magos 10ppm upgrade (he can also give out 6+fnp's) you should be allowed to combine that into a 5+fnp. Best case scneario would then be a ws /bs 5+ militia squad / mutant rabble with a 5+ fnp. which would be 4ppm.
Remeber you would not be bound into any covenant if we would handle it like IA13.
Wait, wouldn't Covenants be the R&H Legion Traits equivalent? So instead of buying them you just pick a <COVENANT> and get its bonuses for the units that have the keyword.
I guess, but I would be more likely to choose one covenant. I know that's stupid, but I feel like realistically an army with multiple allegiances wouldn't fight well together. Plus I always try to have a unifying theme which in the case of R&H would be its diety.
Personally i would favor sticking with the one covenant per army and consider that to just be free.
AtoMaki wrote: Wait, wouldn't Covenants be the R&H Legion Traits equivalent? So instead of buying them you just pick a <COVENANT> and get its bonuses for the units that have the keyword.
No, they are now but are absolute utter trash.
They were never intended for it, not to mention that non mono god r&h can go hike of a cliff now.
The arch demagogue devotions were army traits.
The covenants were marks and I intend to get back to that.
No, they are now but are absolute utter trash.
They were never intended for it, not to mention that non mono god r&h can go hike of a cliff .
I'm confused now, do you or do you not favor one-god armies?
I do not favour hardlocks.
If you want monogod armies buy the covenants upgrades for the god you want.
If you want to mix / like most renegades and heretics are then you should also be able to do that.
That is why i fundamentaly opose the covenants as army traits.
Additionally consider that since you pay pts for covenants you will get better effects off of them.
Take a gander at the covenants in the IA13 list . The effects will be these.
Not Online!!! wrote: [
The arch demagogue devotions were army traits.
The covenants were marks and I intend to get back to that.
Ah, yes, I did not remember the distinction well. So then: <DEVOTION> for Army Trait, and Covenant for the HQ. The former gives the usual bonuses for the units, the latter unlocks additional options for the character and/or the army, like big infantry blobs or super-strong psychic abilities.
In this case, I don't think that Covenants need to cost anything. They are attached to a rather crappy HQ anyway, so they might as well make that HQ worth something.
Not Online!!! wrote: [ The arch demagogue devotions were army traits. The covenants were marks and I intend to get back to that.
Ah, yes, I did not remember the distinction well. So then: <DEVOTION> for Army Trait, and Covenant for the HQ. The former gives the usual bonuses for the units, the latter unlocks additional options for the character and/or the army, like big infantry blobs or super-strong psychic abilities.
In this case, I don't think that Covenants need to cost anything. They are attached to a rather crappy HQ anyway, so they might as well make that HQ worth something.
.... Covenant will be bought like a piece of equipment. Just like militia training will be bought like a piece of equipment. It will have the effect of the Covenants in IA13, albeit adapted.
The covenant bought for the Archdemagogue will also affect the command squad.
That Arch demagogue devotions are basically half the part of what i intend to have for army distinctions of subfactions:
The Other part would be the following 3 doctrines, these would be the army traits and are:
1. Would be "Dug in", any Infantry unit that remained stationary gains +1 LD and +1 to saves, up to 2 times against shooting or psychic attacks, if the unit did not move at all during the turn/s. Additionally only up to a 3+ save. (the thought process is, that carapce armored veterans, disciples,etc should not be harder to shift through gunfire then terminators/marines.)
2. "Rioteers", All frag grenades automarically hit, additionally add +4 " on the range of any greanade and instead of 1 per unit now per 3 Squad members a greanade can be thrown rounding down. Vehicles that charge a enemy unit generate d3 autohits. If the charged unit is bigger then 10 models it generates 2d3 autohits additionally. Loses -1 Ld if a enemy vehicle is within 6".
3. "Fanatical Zealots" All charge/ advance rolls can be rerolled, additionally treat all rapidfire weapon as assult profile. Can never fall back, rerolls 1 to hit in melee.
For these i need feedback, preferably alot of feedback. I also tried to go a route which allows you to show that you are vraksian renegades which have dug in f.e. A violent mob preached into fanaticism that is now rioting, etc. However with some drawbacks.
The demagogue devotions would be as they are now in IA13, a point costed upgrade that has a effect not only on the Demagogue himself but also on how you run the army what acess you get to specific units like renegade grenadiers, big mutants, Decimators and defilers etc. The demagogue will also pay the same ammount for a covenant as whole units do, this is to balance out the access to special units and or slot moved units.
Further diversing Command squad disciples from regular disciples. Command squad disciples remain 6ppm however a Demagogue can never be targeted when within 3" of a command squad. Additionally it will be stronger influenced by the Arch demagogic choice. (mutant overlord gives them the mutation table, Blody handed reaver, will grant them hotshot guns, Primaris rogue which allows for rogue psyker beeing added to the squad.)
I'd like to add to that that command squads are dependant 0-1 per demagogue.
Basically they get to be a cheap bodyguard unit, profit from the demagogue and his devotion.
Also 1 ppm more expensive and more restricted then regular disciples.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: So for the rolls on the mutant overlord how should it read for us now ?
Like i said before the table there is something that gives me issues.
I would suggest giving him the regular Mutant table or an adapted one.
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DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I understand, I just have a hard time imaging the forces of rival gods working together without trying to kill one another.
Missed that one.
The most powerfull leader leads.
It's also just the cult legions that have such problems with each other. WB f.e
Function well, bl functions well. Sure if the big Boss dies then the factions tend to go shank each other but so long the demagogue lives and is powerfull enough / has enough favours to spend he can hold the warband togheter.
And let's not get bogged down in attaching too many restrictions to rules based on the fluff. Other factions don't do so, I don't see why R&H should be the exception.
To be clear, obviously rules are based on fluff to a large degree, but a lot of times our objections are based on our own perceptions of how we think a faction/unit should work as opposed to what is actually represented in the background and what is left up to players in terms of using our imagination.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: And let's not get bogged down in attaching too many restrictions to rules based on the fluff. Other factions don't do so, I don't see why R&H should be the exception.
To be clear, obviously rules are based on fluff to a large degree, but a lot of times our objections are based on our own perceptions of how we think a faction/unit should work as opposed to what is actually represented in the background and what is left up to players in terms of using our imagination.
That is why i'd say keep it simple stupid and take the restrictions and access over from IA13.
Of course that means also that we need to discuss covenants and the devotion effects that were brought up.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: So for the rolls on the mutant overlord how should it read for us now ?
Like i said before the table there is something that gives me issues.
I would suggest giving him the regular Mutant table or an adapted one.
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DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I understand, I just have a hard time imaging the forces of rival gods working together without trying to kill one another.
Missed that one.
The most powerfull leader leads.
It's also just the cult legions that have such problems with each other. WB f.e
Function well, bl functions well. Sure if the big Boss dies then the factions tend to go shank each other but so long the demagogue lives and is powerfull enough / has enough favours to spend he can hold the warband togheter.
Thanks that makes it a little easier for me. That does bring me to another question, do we allow some CSM or CD forces to be in the same detachments as R&H? If so which ones do we allow and what do we prohibit?
I'd say no to that question. Can't think of any that work that way in this edition other than the daemons present in Codex: CSM for summoning purposes.
Am I wrong? Is there a precedent?
Hmm, I guess Death Guard and Thousand Sons have overlapping units.
Still, I'd be inclined to keep Heretic Astartes separate.
No, i don't think we should give them access to the same detachments/ within the same detachments.
Not to mention that Cultists in CSM were nerfed for a reason and allowing this for renegades would just invite abuse again. I'd rather be safe and play a weaker codex/index then sorry and have everything nerfed again. Cough Malefic Lord cough.
I would say therefore no to mixed detachments.
I also would say no to soup via denying Arch demagogic traits of anykind and devotions if your Renegade demagogue is not the warlord.
There is the special case of the slaanesh coevnant in the IA 13 list, which unlocks a unit of Noise marines and a sonic dreadnought. 1 of each if you so chose for your demagogue, the same is true for all covenants and the lack of covenants. I'd say they should remain there in order to not invalidate lists of veterans that fielded them, they also should count not against battleforged kinda like Tempestus scions. Basically limited access as is in IA13 but only if you correctly choose the covenant for your warlord demagogue.
That is the only exception i'd make. Same with plague drones,etc.
What if RH got imperial vehicles at half cost but come with half wounds?
To represent that the vehicle was salvaged and repaired shoddily.
Perhaps half cost is too advantages , maybe a 33% discount is better.
Or maybe vehicles lose 25% wounds and receive 25% point reduction. Then an 25% upgrade purchase can be made to restore wounds before game starts of the player wants.
Or perhaps reduced movement. But each vehicle can purchase upgrade to restore full movement putting it back to regular cost. This way, it can represent a mostly damaged immobile armored force.
I dont like this random rolling for ld for each infantry models. Why not just lower all the leadership values by 1 compared to loyalist and adjust the cost lower. This would make sigils and vox caster upgrades a must have.
Militia training upgrade needs to come back. Definitely needed for vehicles and infantry. Units can stay cheap or cost their loyalist equal after this upgrade purchase.
RH should never get Orders. RH should not be as organized or disciplined as loyalist guards.
Covenants in a weaker form needs to comeback. It needs to be simpler without all the complexity it had. Please no master of the horde gimmick. Just make the returning infantry just like the CSM cultist strategem spending cp.
RH should in no way be AM+1. DKK is AM+1.
RH design philosophy should be quantity over quality. It should be an army of poorly trained, poor leadership, poorly equipped militia, rabbles, mercs.
What if RH got imperial vehicles at half cost but come with half wounds?
To represent that the vehicle was salvaged and repaired shoddily. Perhaps half cost is too advantages , maybe a 33% discount is better.
Or maybe vehicles lose 25% wounds and receive 25% point reduction. Then an 25% upgrade purchase can be made to restore wounds before game starts of the player wants.
Nope, the only thing that renegades generaly have a shortcoming is trained members.
Also Heretek Magoses exist. Blody handed Reaver exists, not to mention whole chaos sectors exist. There is no reason as to why stuff should not work as intended.
I dont like this random rolling for ld for each infantry models. Why not just lower all the leadership values by 1 compared to loyalist and adjust the cost lower. This would make sigils and vox caster upgrades a must have.
This disadvantage was always there. However in older editions this was d6+4 for random leadership. Personally i would not mind reverting it back to that instead of the d6+2.
Militia training upgrade needs to come back. Definitely needed for vehicles and infantry. Units can stay cheap or cost their loyalist equal after this upgrade purchase.
RH should never get Orders. RH should not be as organized or disciplined as loyalist guards.
I agree on the non order part. Militia training will be back since this will be a update to the IA13 list.
Covenants in a weaker form needs to comeback. It needs to be simpler without all the complexity it had. Please no master of the horde gimmick. Just make the returning infantry just like the CSM cultist strategem spending cp.
RH should in no way be AM+1. DKK is AM+1.
RH design philosophy should be quantity over quality. It should be an army of poorly trained, poor leadership, poorly equipped militia, rabbles, mercs.
Covenants are again marks, they certainly need not to be weaker then their counterpart in the IA 13 list was, end of discussion.
Again since this is a update attempt at the list of IA13 both of these are there aswell as the quality appproaches we had there aswell, if you so chose.
Edit: the list also represented the Traitor Guard / other organized military forces with the blody handead reaver and heretek Magos, and that it will do again, you lose on orders but gain a cheaper pricetag for that and some other toys.
I don't know if you have seen it, but the 30k guard list is a pretty solid base for this, kinda like old 7th renegades, you take a HQ and pay points (which these days would be free) to upgrade your army to be a specific kind of faction, high tech, low tech etc.
So but a renegade commander, give it the blood pact trait, this then unlocks scions as a elite option, carapace armour for all infantry units and close combat weapons, sky's the limit with this kind of thing.
Formosa wrote: I don't know if you have seen it, but the 30k guard list is a pretty solid base for this, kinda like old 7th renegades, you take a HQ and pay points (which these days would be free) to upgrade your army to be a specific kind of faction, high tech, low tech etc.
So but a renegade commander, give it the blood pact trait, this then unlocks scions as a elite option, carapace armour for all infantry units and close combat weapons, sky's the limit with this kind of thing.
yeah, except that 30k armies are not 40k armies, and the unique units you unlocked are not in the book aswell.
That is why i try to use the base IA13 and update it.
However if you have access to the book i would apreciate some help there for specific things, like warlord traits.
Additionally i would like to determine which parts are good enough handled by the index:
I personally am a fan of the 30pts ogryns.
I agree with the marauder rules and profile, but not with the fact that they lost the access to energy weapons.
The commander feels like a minor HQ and should probably be the equivalent to such, kinda like the exalted champion is to the chaos lord.
based on that i'd recommend that the Arch demagogue is a 0-1 HQ choice, that has to buy a demagogue devotion and has to be your warlord. I would also let the arch demagogue have the same base profile to the commander, except of course the force buy of the upgrade.
Command squad disciples unlocks would then be tied to the arch demagogue, so always only 1 Command squad.
I also think the Psy powers in the book are good enough for the psykers we have atm.
The Chaos sigil, voxes and command voxes are also good enough in the index.
I leave militia training and discounts for vehicles out atm since i find it immensly difficult to re-evaluate what the prices are so for now i reccomend that we leave it at regular AM price without the traits that AM have.
I'd say limit the warlord to either the commander or a Malefic lord.
- Limit command squads to two per army, it's be preferential to be able to have a back-up in case the other gets sacked in which case your infantry will likely break rank and run.
- Ogryn seem fine how they are now. That said, the Plague Ogryn should be evaluated. I'd favor giving units a keyword based on their covenant tied to the god. This keeps the plague Ogryn balanced because you'd have to give many of your units the Nurgle covenant to make them immune whereas all other units that are not part of it risk get afflicted.
- Marauders are good too, though whether they have energy weapons doesn't matter to me.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I'd say limit the warlord to either the commander or a Malefic lord.
- Limit command squads to two per army, it's be preferential to be able to have a back-up in case the other gets sacked in which case your infantry will likely break rank and run.
- Ogryn seem fine how they are now. That said, the Plague Ogryn should be evaluated. I'd favor giving units a keyword based on their covenant tied to the god. This keeps the plague Ogryn balanced because you'd have to give many of your units the Nurgle covenant to make them immune whereas all other units that are not part of it risk get afflicted.
- Marauders are good too, though whether they have energy weapons doesn't matter to me.
Actually if we revert back to the old random ld, which was d6+4, one squad is more then enough, however i would consider the following idea i had:
Basically you always need to pick an arch demagogue, he is in essence the profile of the renegade commander to keep it simple, and then get's affect by the devotions.
What if we let renegade commanders stay as they are, add in a aura, like reroll ones to hit in any phase. And then couple them with the limit to command squads, that would mean 1/ per demagogue and or commander you field.
At most you can field 4 squads then, and remember they are 6ppm, compared to the regular disciples which are now 5ppm.
The marauder suggestion is more to let the veterans under us, which have built marauders with energy weapons , get their unit back. Not to mention that murder cultists actually get's a use now.....
Malefic lords should be a special option if you pick the whitch demagogue, i also would lower their points to 40 pts down, like wyrdvane psykers.
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.
I don’t buy that sorry. That is one option for renegades and heretics, the old 7th edition list made it possible to represent traitor guard and armed militia and cults. Tats what you need. Make a better save etc an option, like they used to with the military training. If the list is redone it needs to be open enough to be able to field different themes. Might be a nightmare points wise but I don’t use them so less of a worry for me.
I’m with you though on the single god thing. If a group of renegades or heretics has been turned and corrupted it is much more plausible that one of the powers is behind it. Zealous khornate cultists wouldn’t play well with hedonistic pleasure cultists. Keywords also makes sense. The current list seems a bit vanilla.
If you want to add all that crazy chaos stuff you are really making a new army so why should it get all the IG stuff?
Because the entire point of R&H is that they used to be IG but turned to Chaos. If they don't have IG units it loses the entire point of it being a faction.
I don’t buy that sorry. That is one option for renegades and heretics, the old 7th edition list made it possible to represent traitor guard and armed militia and cults. Tats what you need. Make a better save etc an option, like they used to with the military training. If the list is redone it needs to be open enough to be able to field different themes. Might be a nightmare points wise but I don’t use them so less of a worry for me.
I’m with you though on the single god thing. If a group of renegades or heretics has been turned and corrupted it is much more plausible that one of the powers is behind it. Zealous khornate cultists wouldn’t play well with hedonistic pleasure cultists. Keywords also makes sense. The current list seems a bit vanilla.
Again, 7th allowed for mix and match or mono god forces. I am working on a remake of 7th and personally i think it is better to leave the options open like they were instead of once again going down the monogod shenanigans.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I don't know, i was just curious since I have no idea about any of their stats and if they are good/bad
Decimators were once meh and are now ok, imagine a hellbrute made love to a defiler and a terminator.
The looks it get's from the terminator, the combat ability of a hellbrute and the durability and weaponry from daemon engine.
Of course a bit overpriced but a ok unit.
More of a collectors thing really that also is fun in a casual setting.
The defiler, tbh i can't remember a time were it was considered good.
It is ok for now but there is a reason you see it rarely picked in non fluff lists.
Same really with the decimators.
Be good to see if you can recapture what the 7th list did. My R+H have sat idle for too long. No desire to work on them as the current list seems very dull. I like the brood brothers lidea for including guard units or even legion ones. Are you planning on making a pdf index? As in file not defence force.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding covenants, I get the no hard locks on mono god stuff but as I play power level will you be factoring the covenants into that? Should they not be compulsory, as in each unit must have one but you pick which? And will it affect keywords?
Andykp wrote: Be good to see if you can recapture what the 7th list did. My R+H have sat idle for too long. No desire to work on them as the current list seems very dull. I like the brood brothers lidea for including guard units or even legion ones. Are you planning on making a pdf index? As in file not defence force.
PDF, publicly, if I get enough people together that agree with what I am suggesting an playtesting here i will also publicly contact gw.
I feel after i work out some kinks with the warlord traits aswell as the Master of the horde and Mutant overlord, i could basically upload a first Version.
I got lucky insofar that i mostly proxied, a friend bought me the book at the time but as a Student i was broke so not many fw models for me.
I still managed to get 10 or so matches in before the whole formation bs started, this is also the reason why i am not going to add in the artillery tyrant or the unending host.
Now I would have had the money but gw killed them off, so I went to anvil, anyways the result you can see in my sig.
I personally want to conserve as much as possible whilest still bringing the core of the list up to par with what is now standart.
I will also state that the goal for me personally is not even to make a good army but rather bring back the fluffy, in multiple ways playable faction we were.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding covenants, I get the no hard locks on mono god stuff but as I play power level will you be factoring the covenants into that? Should they not be compulsory, as in each unit must have one but you pick which? And will it affect keywords?
I kinda think pl would turn this into a huge task.
Add to that that i literally have no experience with it since i never played it.
As for the requirement, no, you can chose to not get units covenants. Infact i will also once again gate marauders behind a non covenant arch demagogue.
As for when you chose a covenant, yes you will get the key word for the god your covenant is from.
This mainly has to do with the broken interaction of Plague ogryns and the nurgle keyword requirement for when they blow up though.
I will also implement probably a rule like broodbrothers that halfes the cp gain for r&h detachments if you don't field them as your warlords detachment.
There are a few minute details that still need to be changed. For example, the Mutant Overlord is supposed to have access to a Spined Chaos Beast, but those went OOP long ago and are hard to find. Is there something else we can have to add as an "or" option?
Just a note here, I've seen a lot of push from posters in this thread that R & H should have either most or even all of the guard options and then chaos stuff on top of that. That just doesn't work from a game design stand point unless they are going to be priced as more expensive that their loyalist equivalent and that just doesn't jive with a lot of their fluff.
Traitors should be a bit more rag tag because they don't have access to the massive supply chain that the IOM has. I'm not entirely sure in game how this should be represented but they have to give up something.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Just a note here, I've seen a lot of push from posters in this thread that R & H should have either most or even all of the guard options and then chaos stuff on top of that. That just doesn't work from a game design stand point unless they are going to be priced as more expensive that their loyalist equivalent and that just doesn't jive with a lot of their fluff.
Traitors should be a bit more rag tag because they don't have access to the massive supply chain that the IOM has. I'm not entirely sure in game how this should be represented but they have to give up something.
Actually we're going more with the IA13 rules that allow a few specific units from the chaos faction to be used based on which devotion your warlord takes.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Just a note here, I've seen a lot of push from posters in this thread that R & H should have either most or even all of the guard options and then chaos stuff on top of that. That just doesn't work from a game design stand point unless they are going to be priced as more expensive that their loyalist equivalent and that just doesn't jive with a lot of their fluff.
Traitors should be a bit more rag tag because they don't have access to the massive supply chain that the IOM has. I'm not entirely sure in game how this should be represented but they have to give up something.
Ok, have you ever seen the Renegade index / codex?
I am going one to one copy the access from there, like it was.
Be happy that i do not include the vraksian list which had far more access overall.
Also what you think is allready included via how militia works.
Further i can't go more ragtag on infantry since gw decided it would be a good idea to lower ppm for guardsmen to 4. Which meant that i either have to include the armor upgrade for militia allready or worse the militia Training.
Additionally random leadership is still there to represent the questionable quality, the lower average bs/ws is still there.
Infact access is even more restricted since f.e. Valkyires are going to be tied to the magos and Blody handed reaver devotions and the acess to regular tanks is lowered for Master of the horde as is moh access to militia Training.
The forced unit picks are also still there, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: There are a few minute details that still need to be changed. For example, the Mutant Overlord is supposed to have access to a Spined Chaos Beast, but those went OOP long ago and are hard to find. Is there something else we can have to add as an "or" option?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?
By having the renegades get Imperial Guard keywords and allowing allied detachments in the same way as a Stealer cult (so some restrictions) they would be able to get stuff like Valkries and ride around in them...
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Who's to say this particular army that defected didn't have an air cav wing of Vendettas and Vultures? Or a tank company that includes superheavies? Or that those were captured before the heretics slaughtered the loyalists on their planet?
By having the renegades get Imperial Guard keywords and allowing allied detachments in the same way as a Stealer cult (so some restrictions) they would be able to get stuff like Valkries and ride around in them...
I think we're going with Valkyries being only accessible to Bloody-handed Reaver devotees
Here, the first drop:
Including: the base special rules, some thought processes, an generic aura effect for the renegade commanders, and special equipment aswell.
I think we're going with Valkyries being only accessible to Bloody-handed Reaver devotees
I am soon uploading the list of what we are allowed to chose, but in essence I suggest it will remain the same as before (index +FAQ) for all demagogues i think.
that said, if we restrict access to valkyries then the Magos will be able to field them aswell.
_______________________________________________
What still needs doing:
Implementing the Arch demagogue and his devotions. Probably the biggest part about this.
Reintroducing:
the Renegade Veterans.
Plague Zombies:
Rewriting the militia rules, yes we will no longer get 1/5 dudes special weapons. Instead 10/dudes allow for a special and a HWT.
Ideas regarding the <War Plan> traits. These are atm placeholders.
Looking at the pdf so far, I am liking the look of it. The aura is a good addition, but the 6'' range keeps it from wing utterly abusive. The War Plans also look reasonable, though I think we a can agree we should brainstorm a couple more just for variety. What I like most is the anti-CP clause, since this discourages people from just adding the R&H as blobs but still gives us the option of taking seperate CSM or CD detachments without additional penalties.
Overall, well done sir and I applaud you for your work and effort!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have an idea for a war plan:
Reckless Bombardment - Renegade Earthshaker Carriages, Medusa Carriages, Heavy Quad Launchers, and Heavy Mortars all gain +1 to hit. In addition, each model can take d3 extra shots. If you choose to take the extra shots roll a d6. On a 6+, it overheats and takes d3 mortal wounds. If this would cause the model to be removed from the table, it detonates and deals d3 mortal wounds to the Renegade crew.
Whenever one of these units targets an enemy within 12" of any of your units, roll a d6 for each of your units within 12" of the target. On a 4+ it suffers d3 mortal wounds. If the unit has 10 or more models in it, instead it takes d6 mortal wounds.
I honestly thought more along the line of a "Artillery Tyrant". Instead of a bombardment.
Basically, he is only 0-1. And an elites choice. 30pts like his IG counterpart, however he has to buy one of these choices:
Also instead of rerolling 1's for hit rolls he allows rerolling 1 for determining the ammount of shots fired for Basilisks, Wyverns, griffons, Earthshaker batteries,etc.
Mortar strike: 30 pts 3D6 S4 0ap d1
Heavy mortar strike: 60 pts Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 d3
Earthshaker strike: 100pts. Heavy D6 S9 AP-3 d3
How they function: basically you can chose a point on the map that the Artilery tyrant can see, put down a marker there.
All units that walk into a radious of 6" have to roll a d6:
1-3 nothing happens, the crew is sleeping. 4-5 a shooting attack happens with the profile: on a 6: the unit that walks into that radious get's the maximum hits and damage aswell as D3 bonus hits.
We could add something like Infantry may add up to 6" when they charge in a turn where artillery fired, but the next turn they must roll a d6. On a 3+, the infantry break ranks out of fear of being hit by the artillery and must fall back at least 6 inches if able?
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: We could add something like Infantry may add up to 6" when they charge in a turn where artillery fired, but the next turn they must roll a d6. On a 3+, the infantry break ranks out of fear of being hit by the artillery and must fall back at least 6 inches if able?
You kinda mean like Stormtroopers of WW1.
I'd rather have said that on a roll of D6 1-3 the charging squad suffers all misses of the artillery as hits against them. Tha however is still a tad strange for a trait.?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1. "Dug in", any Infantry unit that remained stationary gains +1 LD and +1 to saves, against shooting or psychic attacks, if the unit did not move at all during the turn/s, deployment does not count as moved.
Additionally, only up to a 3+ save. (the thought process is, that carapce armored veterans, disciples, etc should not be harder to shift through gunfire then terminators/marines.)
2. "Rioteers", All frag grenades automatically hit, additionally add +4 " on the range of any grenade and instead of 1 per unit now per 3 Squad members a grenade can be thrown rounding down. Loses -1 Ld if a enemy vehicle is within 6".
3. "Fanatical Zealots" All charge/ advance rolls can be rerolled, additionally treat all rapidfire weapon as assault profile. Can never fall back, rerolls 1 to hit in melee.
So far.
I think i will rename the first one to "Trenchfighters"
I would suggest the following 2 so that we would have 5 traits.
4."Superior Firepower": All heavy weapons with a regular shot ammount gain +1 on all their hit rolls. Heavy D3/6 weapons gain flat 1 additional shot.
All squads that field a heavy weapon must reduce their M and WS charachteristic by 1.
5. "Mass Assult": All enemy units suffer a -1 to hit if they do not target the closest unit. All Renegade and Heretics Infantry units suffer a -1 LD penality.
Here's another I've been mulling over. This one goes along with some of the troops being hired guns.
- Incentivized Slaughter
Whenever a Renegade Infantry unit destroys an enemy unit, roll a d6 and take the result from the list:
•1-2 - Increase the attack of that unit by 1.
•3-4 - Return 1 slain model from that unit to the battlefield.
•5 - Increase the weapon skill of that unit by 1 (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Marauders are exempt from this rule).
•6 - Increase the strength of that unit by 1. (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Matauders are exempt from this rule).
If any affected unit falls back, it loses all benefits gained so far.
Just regular traitor guardsman stats with suicide vests.
1-5 models.
Suicide vests:
- Detonate: Inflict d6 S8 AP-3 Dd3 hits in a 6" radius.
- Warp-explosives (or whatever): d3 mortal wounds instead of the regular stats.
When a model from this unit is slain, roll a d6. On a 6+ they detonate.
Obviously friendly units can be hit.
Something like that, anyway.
You realise that this is anathema to Chaos, since instead of only the strong survive it gets replaced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Here's another I've been mulling over. This one goes along with some of the troops being hired guns.
- Incentivized Slaughter
Whenever a Renegade Infantry unit destroys an enemy unit, roll a d6 and take the result from the list:
•1-2 - Increase the attack of that unit by 1.
•3-4 - Return 1 slain model from that unit to the battlefield.
•5 - Increase the weapon skill of that unit by 1 (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Marauders are exempt from this rule).
•6 - Increase the strength of that unit by 1. (This can only be taken once. If you roll it again, reroll the die. Matauders are exempt from this rule).
If any affected unit falls back, it loses all benefits gained so far.
I just wanted something to focus on for an army of sell-swords, which is basically what Marauders already are. The more people you kill, the more plunder you get when the battle is over. If you have to fall back, you'll likely lose any evidence of your kills and you get paid nothing.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I just wanted something to focus on for an army of sell-swords, which is basically what Marauders already are. The more people you kill, the more plunder you get when the battle is over. If you have to fall back, you'll likely lose any evidence of your kills and you get paid nothing.
Hmm that has a point but the Marauders are the only hired guns.
Why not add a archdemagogue that allows for marauders as troops?
Hmm, that's an interesting idea. It's something that could be both be very strong and weak at the same time. Sure, you may have a ton of them, but one bad roll and your army drops their guns and leaves.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Hmm, that's an interesting idea. It's something that could be both be very strong and weak at the same time. Sure, you may have a ton of them, but one bad roll and your army drops their guns and leaves.
A 1/6 chance, no matter the cost they suffered and imunity against morale shenanigans are a tradeoff i'd make anytime.
I agree completely, but the fact that that chance of getting a 1 looms will always be there at the back of your mind.... Wow I did not mean for this to get so philosophical.
Baleful Judge was reeimplemented, this is the rule that replaces the Enforcer D3 dead rule, since it would've been significantly to strong with certain demagogue devotions.
Chosen handpicked Bodyguards:
this is a new one to mark command Disciple squads with covenants and connect them closer to the Demagogue. They deny weapons like sniperrifles to target your demagogue but are more expensive , also only carrier of Command voxes.
Arch demagogue devotions is where i need some Feedback, i decided to adapt them to fit better with 8th edition. As always Commentary and thoughts of me are written in cursive.
Feedback appreciated.
I also decided that R&H will not gain Warlord traits but instead get devotions that are bought for the Arch demagogue.
I also deliberated a harsher penalty for R&H detachments in a Army that does not field a Archdemagogue warlord.
Not sure about the bodyguards being the only ones who can have command Vox-nets, that should just be given to all command squads. Otherwise it looks good.
On another note, IA13 has it that only armies without covenants can use marauders. Not sure I like that idea.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I'd prefer the leadership be established on a unit-by-unit basis.
Then how do you keep track of the leadership of 20+ units? Not to mention how much time with all the rolling takes and you don’t get to roll for leadership of the command squads until they need to take a check so if they don’t shoot at them then they don’t get their ld even with a vox
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Not sure about the bodyguards being the only ones who can have command Vox-nets, that should just be given to all command squads. Otherwise it looks good.
On another note, IA13 has it that only armies without covenants can use marauders. Not sure I like that idea.
You gain access to a command squad by either fielding a Renegade commander, which will get the Aura, and a Archdemagogue.
That means you have access to potentially 4 command voxes, 4 Banners, atleast.
However the marauders indeed are a problem.
I would therefore suggest the following:
"All Archdemagogues unlock 0-3 Marauder squads." This has two main effects:
A.) All R&H armies have regular access to what is probably our best elite unit.
B.) All Soup Armies that don't field an Archdemagogue as warlord will not get any Marauders at all.
HOWEVER: Arch Demagogues that do not have any Covenant may choose 0-6 Marauder Squads.
This way unaligned Demagogues show their proficency at getting mercs better since they are not aligned and regular armies don't change that much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I'd prefer the leadership be established on a unit-by-unit basis.
Gotta agree with DeathKorp here.
The problem is, that in all honesty, Morale management on average costs around 100-200 pts when you want to be on the save side.
This is not neglieable, and if the whole army determines the morale as one, it adds basically nothing to it, instead what then is going to happen is Command Rerrolls and players save the cost for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My fellow Commrades in arms, Warlords, Witches, Pirates and Mercs.
There is no denying that you are in a position that is, well Suboptimal, to say the least.
What if i could help you, No there is no catch, well other that i want your absolute consent and your signature, written in blood, no you won't end (all) as Chaos Spawn.
I've done it.
this is the complete IA13 List updated into 8th edition.
Looks pretty good. I doubt GW or FW will do anything about our plight though, mostly because they don't care. Either way, this is balanced enough that it seems like most casual players shouldn't have any complaints about us using them.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Looks pretty good. I doubt GW or FW will do anything about our plight though, mostly because they don't care. Either way, this is balanced enough that it seems like most casual players shouldn't have any complaints about us using them.
Once again, I applaud you for your hard work.
Actually some stuff is still missing, like the pts of Rogue psykers.
But beyond that, i think it is a fair little index.
Since they are the Coven one 100 pts for 5 seemed appropriate:
Seemed, i did some deliberating however and decided that the Charachter Keyword on them is worth atleast 5pts.
So i am suggesting that we add it to their price to get 25 pts /rogue Psyker
Further: Let's talk Stratagems:
I'd imagine 1-2 Stratagems per Demagogue devotion would be appropriate. (6)
Approximately 1 Stratagem per Warplan. (3atm.)
1 Stratagem per Covenant. (4)
and maybee a bunch of general usefull Stratagems. (say 4)
So total Stratagem ammount 17.
________________________________
Beyond that:
Some experimental units and suggestions.
As said before, this is a IA13 rewrite, that means that some stuff that f.e. Vraksian armies had, is not featured.
The Artillery Tyrant f.e. demagogue is not fieldable so far and Apostate Priests are also not available.
Further, Sabre Weapon plattforms are missing as of yet, that said i think these might not be neccessary.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I really don't like stratagems and that is one of the reasons I play R&H. I think it's something that should be let go, but that is just me.
Hm, i get where you are coming from, but i fear that without them we still will get rolled over. That said i planned to have a very specific kind of stratagem as in, restricted and less of the "i shoot now double the ammount of dakka" and more along the line of bonus mali system:
Other then that , any specific idea about the arty tyrant or the appostate priest?
Since they are the Coven one 100 pts for 5 seemed appropriate:
Seemed, i did some deliberating however and decided that the Charachter Keyword on them is worth atleast 5pts.
So i am suggesting that we add it to their price to get 25 pts /rogue Psyker
Further: Let's talk Stratagems:
I'd imagine 1-2 Stratagems per Demagogue devotion would be appropriate. (6)
Approximately 1 Stratagem per Warplan. (3atm.)
1 Stratagem per Covenant. (4)
and maybee a bunch of general usefull Stratagems. (say 4)
So total Stratagem ammount 17.
________________________________
Beyond that:
Some experimental units and suggestions.
As said before, this is a IA13 rewrite, that means that some stuff that f.e. Vraksian armies had, is not featured.
The Artillery Tyrant f.e. demagogue is not fieldable so far and Apostate Priests are also not available.
Further, Sabre Weapon plattforms are missing as of yet, that said i think these might not be neccessary.
_____________________________________________
Have i missed anything? any more ideas? Thoughts?
Read it, love it. Good job.
I would make a few recommendations if I may.
War plans could be a formation. But not a major.
I think that for roiters shouldn’t have auto hitting frag grenades ( improvised explosives) and able to throw 3 at a time. Maybe have fire bombs that auto hit and a stratagem so they can all throw them.
Afew more psychic powers, 2 generic ones and 1 god specific, ie nurgle Marasma of petilesnce (sorry for spelling, -1 to hit, khorne fight or shoot twice, tezench teleport a unit, slannesh mind control.
Plague zombies can be poxwalkers ported from the deathguard codex since they have the rights for them already.
Beastmen and traitor guard please lol.
Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.
We definitely need stratagems if we want to be competitive and use the cp we can generate.
Since they are the Coven one 100 pts for 5 seemed appropriate:
Seemed, i did some deliberating however and decided that the Charachter Keyword on them is worth atleast 5pts.
So i am suggesting that we add it to their price to get 25 pts /rogue Psyker
Further: Let's talk Stratagems:
I'd imagine 1-2 Stratagems per Demagogue devotion would be appropriate. (6)
Approximately 1 Stratagem per Warplan. (3atm.)
1 Stratagem per Covenant. (4)
and maybee a bunch of general usefull Stratagems. (say 4)
So total Stratagem ammount 17.
________________________________
Beyond that:
Some experimental units and suggestions.
As said before, this is a IA13 rewrite, that means that some stuff that f.e. Vraksian armies had, is not featured.
The Artillery Tyrant f.e. demagogue is not fieldable so far and Apostate Priests are also not available.
Further, Sabre Weapon plattforms are missing as of yet, that said i think these might not be neccessary.
_____________________________________________
Have i missed anything? any more ideas? Thoughts?
Read it, love it. Good job.
I would make a few recommendations if I may.
War plans could be a formation. But not a major.
I think that for roiters shouldn’t have auto hitting frag grenades ( improvised explosives) and able to throw 3 at a time. Maybe have fire bombs that auto hit and a stratagem so they can all throw them.
Afew more psychic powers, 2 generic ones and 1 god specific, ie nurgle Marasma of petilesnce (sorry for spelling, -1 to hit, khorne fight or shoot twice, tezench teleport a unit, slannesh mind control.
Plague zombies can be poxwalkers ported from the deathguard codex since they have the rights for them already.
Beastmen and traitor guard please lol.
Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.
We definitely need stratagems if we want to be competitive and use the cp we can generate.
Shhhh come closer, see the entry on the militia? May purchase "militia Training"? And take a gander at the SV statistic.
Then do the math I'll bet you will like it.
The idea behind the rioteers is that they use incindiary nades / mollotovs. That is also why they are scared off vehicles.
Mutants (beastmen) , and if you feel fancy you can always go Mutant overlord and upgrade ogryns, disciples and command disciples. Also buy a covenant of Khorne and watch them rip and tear.
Plague zombies remain where they are. (4+ FNP for 3 pts)
Also would it make it too busy to add in dark mechanicacus? Repair the vehicles and the others from blackstone fortress.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Also would it make it too busy to add in dark mechanicacus? Repair the vehicles and the others from blackstone fortress.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol.
You mean that the arch demagogue heretek magos can repair vehicles?
I guess i could just pick up the rules from the warpsmith.
Not a fan of Blackstone units.
Militia can be upgraded with militia Training for 10 pts flat. A 10 man squad with militia Training is 4ppm guardsmen standart (well no orders but Commanders have auras now and covenants actually help them now.)
And if you go field 20 man blobs they cost 3.5 ppm.
Not to mention that war-plans would significantly boost their survivability compared to guardsmen or their offensive output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol
Honestly, Feedback is appreciated and I feel like especially for the heretek magos it would make sense that he could repair stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.
Seems a bit strong, however i would point out that we could go with the old daemonweapons.
say it grants the following S+1 ap-3 d3, however before you fight roll a d6 a result of one the carrier loses a wound, on 2+ he gains that many attacks.
ulfhednir86 wrote: Also would it make it too busy to add in dark mechanicacus? Repair the vehicles and the others from blackstone fortress.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol.
You mean that the arch demagogue heretek magos can repair vehicles?
I guess i could just pick up the rules from the warpsmith.
Not a fan of Blackstone units.
Militia can be upgraded with militia Training for 10 pts flat. A 10 man squad with militia Training is 4ppm guardsmen standart (well no orders but Commanders have auras now and covenants actually help them now.)
And if you go field 20 man blobs they cost 3.5 ppm.
Not to mention that war-plans would significantly boost their survivability compared to guardsmen or their offensive output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining this is great. Just my thoughts for you to consider. I missed the milita save sorry lol
Honestly, Feedback is appreciated and I feel like especially for the heretek magos it would make sense that he could repair stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relics: deamon blade. Replaces powersword and has str+2, ap-3, damage d6 but on a hit roll of 1 the user takes a mortal wound.
Seems a bit strong, however i would point out that we could go with the old daemonweapons.
say it grants the following S+1 ap-3 d3, however before you fight roll a d6 a result of one the carrier loses a wound, on 2+ he gains that many attacks.
Oh man I really need reread it with less children’s lol.
Sorry bro.
I think the flat upgrade for the militia is great as it would encourage larger units ina edition that favours msu.
Your right it op but just an idea for you to work with.
For Renegade Preachers, I was thinking have come in as a Preacher for the covenant your warlord has (so, it does nothing for "no-covenant armies") and give a bonus bases on that. This also gives a small incentive to have mono-god armies. I was also thinking that since Marauders are there for the money and don't care about the stuff the preachers are talking about, they should not be affected by the bonuses.
For bonuses I was thinking something like:
Preacher of Nurgle - All Renegade units you control with the Nurgle faction keyword within 6" of the preacher may reroll failed wound rolls once during the Fight Phase. In addition, any Infantry models that suffer an unsaved wound from these units take 1 mortal wound. This does not affect Marauders. (I tried to simulate plague weapons here)
Preacher of Tzeentch - All Renegade units with the Tzeentch faction keyword within 6" of the preacher hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch. In addition, these units may target character models during overwatch even if they are not the closest models. This does not affect marauders.
Preacher of Khorne - All Renegade units with the Khorne faction keyword within 6" of the preacher get +1 to their strength during the fight phase. In addition, these units may reroll failed hit rolls once during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.
Preacher of Slaanesh - All Renegade units with the Slaanesh faction keyword within 6" of the preacher can add 3" to their charge or advance. In addition, these units may make one additional attack during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: For Renegade Preachers, I was thinking have come in as a Preacher for the covenant your warlord has (so, it does nothing for "no-covenant armies") and give a bonus bases on that. This also gives a small incentive to have mono-god armies. I was also thinking that since Marauders are there for the money and don't care about the stuff the preachers are talking about, they should not be affected by the bonuses.
For bonuses I was thinking something like:
Preacher of Nurgle - All Renegade units you control with the Nurgle faction keyword within 6" of the preacher may reroll failed wound rolls once during the Fight Phase. In addition, any Infantry models that suffer an unsaved wound from these units take 1 mortal wound. This does not affect Marauders. (I tried to simulate plague weapons here)
Preacher of Tzeentch - All Renegade units with the Tzeentch faction keyword within 6" of the preacher hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch. In addition, these units may target character models during overwatch even if they are not the closest models. This does not affect marauders.
Preacher of Khorne - All Renegade units with the Khorne faction keyword within 6" of the preacher get +1 to their strength during the fight phase. In addition, these units may reroll failed hit rolls once during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.
Preacher of Slaanesh - All Renegade units with the Slaanesh faction keyword within 6" of the preacher can add 3" to their charge or advance. In addition, these units may make one additional attack during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: For Renegade Preachers, I was thinking have come in as a Preacher for the covenant your warlord has (so, it does nothing for "no-covenant armies") and give a bonus bases on that. This also gives a small incentive to have mono-god armies. I was also thinking that since Marauders are there for the money and don't care about the stuff the preachers are talking about, they should not be affected by the bonuses.
For bonuses I was thinking something like:
Preacher of Nurgle - All Renegade units you control with the Nurgle faction keyword within 6" of the preacher may reroll failed wound rolls once during the Fight Phase. In addition, any Infantry models that suffer an unsaved wound from these units take 1 mortal wound. This does not affect Marauders. (I tried to simulate plague weapons here)
Preacher of Tzeentch - All Renegade units with the Tzeentch faction keyword within 6" of the preacher hit on a 4+ when firing overwatch. In addition, these units may target character models during overwatch even if they are not the closest models. This does not affect marauders.
Preacher of Khorne - All Renegade units with the Khorne faction keyword within 6" of the preacher get +1 to their strength during the fight phase. In addition, these units may reroll failed hit rolls once during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.
Preacher of Slaanesh - All Renegade units with the Slaanesh faction keyword within 6" of the preacher can add 3" to their charge or advance. In addition, these units may make one additional attack during your fight phase. This does not affect marauders.
Updated OP with the new link. Been working nearly nonstop so I haven't had a chance to read anything, but will hopefully get to reading it tomorrow. Love the energy and enthusiasm in this thread!
- Renegade Apostate Preacher is equipped with a brutal assault weapon, frag grenades, and either an autopistol or laspistol.
- Wargear Options:
• this unit may replace its Autopistol or Laspistol with either an Autogun, Lasgun, shotgun, or another weapon from the R&H ranged weapon list.
• This unit may replace its brutal assault weapon with a weapon from the R&H melee weapon list.
Abilities:
• Chaos Covenent (A Renegade Apostate Preacher must choose the same covenant as the Archdemagogue, but costs no additional points. If the Archdemagogue does not have a covenant, this unit can not be included with your army.
• Refractor Field: This unit has a 5+ invulnerable save.
I know about the differences in strength, but I was at a loss for ideas about benefits so I decided to make them somewhat extensions of the covenant and w/e else I could think of
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I noticed for the Hereteks-Magus, it doesn't tell you how much it costs to upgrade those units with the FNP.
Conceptually, I think I can agree that allied detachments can be overpowered, but unless there' some game-wide restriction or downside to it I'd be against imposing it against ourselves. I don't really believe in handicapping only myself. If the opponent agreed to use the same rule I suppose that would be fair if worked out properly.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Conceptually, I think I can agree that allied detachments can be overpowered, but unless there' some game-wide restriction or downside to it I'd be against imposing it against ourselves. I don't really believe in handicapping only myself. If the opponent agreed to use the same rule I suppose that would be fair if worked out properly.
A: it is one CP. (Basically no more picking the Leman russes or other IG vehicles for gaining CP and padding weaknesses. It should influence the choice to bigger R&H detachments.
B: This is mostly to basically intervene before the issues with soup show up.
C: I feel like it would be unfair to have the Brood Brothers restriction ingame but nithing vice versa for Chaos.
That said i marked it as a full on Betarule, in order to explorie it as an idea and can fully understand your issue with it. Because why should you get the shorter pike then your enemy in a match.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I know about the differences in strength, but I was at a loss for ideas about benefits so I decided to make them somewhat extensions of the covenant and w/e else I could think of
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I noticed for the Hereteks-Magus, it doesn't tell you how much it costs to upgrade those units with the FNP.
Ooopps, forgot to add the pricetag. (10pts. /per squad, yes it is another flat upgrade. ) will later bring up a bit better edited and updated list.
Yeah, but why would you not choose an Archdemagogue to e your warlord? That's where most of the strength in the army comes from, or at least a great deal of it
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Yeah, but why would you not choose an Archdemagogue to e your warlord? That's where most of the strength in the army comes from, or at least a great deal of it
Because some just want to exploit the 3ppm troops?
think about it, 30 militia members cost now 90 pts. 2 commanders 60 pts. that is 150 pts and therefore 20 pts cheaper then it is now, with charachters that still now do something.
I saw this when i first wrote up the pts and consequently concluded that now commanders would be worth it and militia, it would basically let people abuse MSU again.
Then I for one have no issue with the rule. It allows to take allied detachments (which is hard for us to abuse) and discourages other people from trying to abuse R&H as Cannon fodder
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Then I for one have no issue with the rule. It allows to take allied detachments (which is hard for us to abuse) and discourages other people from trying to abuse R&H as Cannon fodder
A CSM player still can abuse or use the R&H as cannonfodder, but he is then incentiviced to bring the bigger detachments and not just the 5pts Veterans /Disciples and consorts.
But I was wondering, how is it going to work with our warlord in incorporating outside units into our detachments? Seeing as our armies could have any between 1 and 4 possible Chaos gods as a faction keyword, what would we determine as being able to incorporate?
For example:
My army has both Nurgle and Khorne faction units in it. Would I be able to bring in units with either Khorne or Nurgle into my detachments? Or should we limit these units to whatever our Archdemagogue has as his faction keyword?
Like say my warlord has the Nurgle keyword but I have some Khorne keyword units in my army as well. Would I be able to have Khorne Daemons and Nurgle Daemons mixed in with my detachments?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know what, I misunderstood. I thought that they would gain the faction keywords of their god, but it's just keywords. My whole question is moot.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Like say my warlord has the Nurgle keyword but I have some Khorne keyword units in my army as well. Would I be able to have Khorne Daemons and Nurgle Daemons mixed in with my detachments?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know what, I misunderstood. I thought that they would gain the faction keywords of their god, but it's just keywords. My whole question is moot.
Thought so that is why i asked again, but you confused me good
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, you gain nurgle and khorne but you can't let non r&H units in, except the allowed ones
So far i went with 10pts flat for it, like it was in IA13 for all units.
I think it also scales fine that way since you pay more for it thanks to the smaller squad.
I think even in its current WIP state it’s obviously better than what we have now, so kudos for taking the time. It’s exciting to potentially have a more interesting and varied army.
I will say this, though. Philosophically, I just don’t really like some of what I’m seeing. Mind you, this is a matter of taste and preference more than anything else.
Forge World’s designers seemingly intentionally wanted an army that doesn’t perform all that well and is full of handicaps. Certain combos notwithstanding, I think if that was their aim then they accomplished it. What is disappointing to me is that so many other players are happy to embrace this, even when writing a homebrew version of the army list.
Is the goal to keep things the same and only invent new rules when there is no equivalent, or what? Many things are copied and pasted from the current FW index in terms of rules and points. 30 point marauder brutes, for example. And yet, Baleful Eye was deemed too powerful, so it was changed to a less powerful version. This change alone would have me prefer the current lackluster index, which is a sad statement.
Having a broken army would certainly not be the right direction, for sure. But at the same time, why is there this tendency to handicap yourself? This is not an insult, again, just a matter of preference, but it seems totally out of line with the rest of the army lists in the game (written by GW).
Of course, it would take way more time and effort to overhaul each and every unit, so I guess it isn’t fair to expect that from an early WIP, so I’m not saying I expect that here after such a short time.
I guess I’m just really on a totally different page than a lot of the other players of this faction. For me, far too many units left out of the army list, and far too many self handicaps whose beneficial trade offs aren’t really much compared to the other armies in the game.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Another point I want to bring up, how much should Covenant upgrades be for units like Hellhounds or Valkyries?
Why should vehicles get Covenants. I would rather adapt the warplans for them instead to be fully functional traits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think even in its current WIP state it’s obviously better than what we have now, so kudos for taking the time. It’s exciting to potentially have a more interesting and varied army.
I will say this, though. Philosophically, I just don’t really like some of what I’m seeing. Mind you, this is a matter of taste and preference more than anything else.
Understandable, this was basically just a updated version of IA13.
Forge World’s designers seemingly intentionally wanted an army that doesn’t perform all that well and is full of handicaps. Certain combos notwithstanding, I think if that was their aim then they accomplished it. What is disappointing to me is that so many other players are happy to embrace this, even when writing a homebrew version of the army list.
If you look into the waning days of 7th R&H was a topcontender for the most broken gak ever. Artillery Tyrant + Purge formation with plague zomie tarpits. The Glorious Recycling on 3+ gain cover for all units behind your infantry that was 3+ including baneblades and picking a baneblade to gain zealot and fearless with covr for it.
Infact R&H were without formations upper midtier, ccoming close to beeing hightier, and with formation were just chedar.
Is the goal to keep things the same and only invent new rules when there is no equivalent, or what? Many things are copied and pasted from the current FW index in terms of rules and points. 30 point marauder brutes, for example. And yet, Baleful Eye was deemed too powerful, so it was changed to a less powerful version. This change alone would have me prefer the current lackluster index, which is a sad statement.
Having a broken army would certainly not be the right direction, for sure. But at the same time, why is there this tendency to handicap yourself? This is not an insult, again, just a matter of preference, but it seems totally out of line with the rest of the army lists in the game (written by GW).
Have you played against either, prenerf Commisar conscript blobs, Or against Failbaddon cultists blobs, that also recently again got into the toptables? If you did, was it a interesting game? Because the ones i played against these were not interesting or fun.
I did it 4 times for tournament practice against some people, morale immune blobs are easily one of the worst things in this game atm. (mind i^you i played the training dummy with a high durability list to see if the DMG output is there). Now imagine all of these problems hold over and this time the unit is JUST 3 pts instead of 4 or even 5? Don't you agree this would be very much unhealthy for the game?
Added to that, the new morale rule actually just stopps D3 dead if you pass a morale check, that made the enforcer more reliable, the enforcer also dropped 1/6th in pts. The enfocer now also has access to a piece of equipment to just flat out double the A valua on most models.
As for the Marauder Brutes and why i took over Index pts. Marauder Brutes are an odd one, because most of the people here and that will play R&H , will make shooty Marauders. Those that do want to go into melee, will potentially be taking Brutes. I can't however lower the price for Brutes down to , say 15 pts. which would be realistically worth it for melee marauders, because then people will start to pick them as ablative wounds for their shooty marauders. Infact i am still toying around with the points there but these are a unit that needs some playtesting.
On the otherhand alot of the index stuff was taken over because it was simply better priced, or would you want to pay 60pts for an ogryn berserker alone again?
Of course, it would take way more time and effort to overhaul each and every unit, so I guess it isn’t fair to expect that from an early WIP, so I’m not saying I expect that here after such a short time.
I guess I’m just really on a totally different page than a lot of the other players of this faction. For me, far too many units left out of the army list, and far too many self handicaps whose beneficial trade offs aren’t really much compared to the other armies in the game.
Why left out? What did i forget? You now have full access to the upgradable units again? Alone the troop count doubled.
Also let's go and see this: Militia and mutants dropped 25% The Commander got 1/5th more expensive but gained an AURA for 5 pts (30 pts) that is arguably better then their IG counterparts. Veterans are back as TROOP and for 5 pts. Disciples dropped 1/6. Command Disciples have the best bodyguard rule there is in the game atm and cost 6ppm. Rogue Psykers are now a threat and can be picked for cheap. Enforcers dropped 5 pts and gained access to great equipment. Covenants now do gak. and compared to IA13 dropped a 1/3 (5pts) Vehicles are 1:1 AM Chaos Spawn now is the cheaper CSM version, whcih CA actually didn't give us, because wtf.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also still missing are the following units and rules, which were from the vraks supplement :
Apostate priest, these we basically have, thanks to deathkorps work but a slight rework still needed.
Artillery tyrant i have a idea that i will Post later.
Sorry I was unclear, when I'm talking about units left out I'm talking about Astra Militarum units that Renegades & Heretics don't have access to.
As mentioned elsewhere, e.g., baneblade variants and valkyrie variants. "We" (R&H) have no way of buffing units like these the way loyalists do, and their inclusion in our army list would certainly not be overpowered in my mind. Our demagoguery, covenants, etc. do nothing for them. And that's totally fine! In my mind, that's what makes it fair enough to include them.
You aren't wrong about how lame it could be to face hordes and hordes of morale-immune troops. I just don't see why we would take it upon ourselves to remove a powerful ability when others are included in the game. I see this issue more as one of personal choice by a player not to be a TFG rather than nerfing ourselves. One unit of morale-immune mutants is over the top, or 3+ are? Even so, how much damage is the rest of the army doing that morale-immune troops with a specific elites choice that is a 1-per-slot are totally broken?
Again I refer back to the spirit of sportsmanship (or whatever you want to call it) and not being TFG. In a tournament, though, I see no problem with even 10 units of morale-immune mutants. One broken list versus another broken list is no skin off my nose. There will always be some broken combination that people use to win tournaments that they pay to enter and have prize support. I don't begrudge them that. If a casual player or pickup game uses a list like that, I just wouldn't bother playing them since it's a foregone conclusion and I don't like to waste my time.
I realize my comments didn't take the totality of your changes into account, and many of them are great. Again it wasn't you doing bad work, just me having a different vision and philosophy.
As mentioned elsewhere, e.g., baneblade variants and valkyrie variants. "We" (R&H) have no way of buffing units like these the way loyalists do, and their inclusion in our army list would certainly not be overpowered in my mind. Our demagoguery, covenants, etc. do nothing for them. And that's totally fine! In my mind, that's what makes it fair enough to include them.
This is excactly why i didn't implement the limit i toyed around with earlier for Valkyries f.e.
You aren't wrong about how lame it could be to face hordes and hordes of morale-immune troops. I just don't see why we would take it upon ourselves to remove a powerful ability when others are included in the game. I see this issue more as one of personal choice by a player not to be a TFG rather than nerfing ourselves. One unit of morale-immune mutants is over the top, or 3+ are? Even so, how much damage is the rest of the army doing that morale-immune troops with a specific elites choice that is a 1-per-slot are totally broken?
Considering that R&H overall will get alot cheaper potentially alot. I basically work with the premise, look what is broken, try not to step in it, if it is to weak look at it again and adapt it .
Basically the hope i have is, that if i give out a Codex that is on the weaker side, it is easier for people to accept it, therefore easier for people to actually test it, therefore supplying myself with more data, therefore making it easier argued if i buff nerf something in the fututre, it's just another approach.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So i was busy, and had some time in the train today and decided, why not start that obstacle now: First these:
Artillery Tyrant: (profile is the same as the Commander Instead of the aura however he gains the following:
Friendly units that are either: Basilisk, Earthshakers carriage/emplacement, Medusas of any flavour, minotaur artillery tank, wyvern, Griffon, heavy mortars, quad launchers, that are within 6" of the artilery Tyrant add D3 shots on top of their regular shots ammount.
Further: The Artillery Tyrant is 0-1 per detachment.
Masterenforcer: (basically again a commander profilewise, this time however restricted to only be able to be picked when your demagogue is a Arch-Heretic-Revolutionary) He gains the Index Rule that enforcers had there, and is a HQ that never can be the warlord.
Apostate Priest, see Deathkorps post.
Archheretic: Basically A HQ that is there for support, base idea is the pact with the gods/ god and this grants him access to specific Powers (basically like a psyker but one that buys them instead of getting them for free) Inspired by the Black Tontine. Toying around with him beeing capable summoning an Assessor.
_______________________________________
Stratagems:
General:
Lives before Ammo: 1CP:
Any Militia/ Mutant Squad makes you roll a D3, add that many Mutants/ Militia to the Squad, the squad can expand over their starting number.
Archdemagogic Stratagems:
Master of the Horde:
Trial by Fire: 2 CP, chose a militia Squad that has suffered loss/es. The Squad changes it's profile from militia to Renegade Veterans.
A wave of bodies: 3CP At the start of your turn. All enemy models suffer a -1 to hit penalty if they shoot at Militia units this turn.
Bloody Handed Reaver:
Unexpected Thrust: 2 CP / Grenadiersquad with Chimera: You can keep up to 3 Grenadier Squads with Chimeras in reserve per 2 CP:
They enter the Battlefield from a flank and can go up to 5" to an enemy model. The Grenadier Squad immediatly disembarks and suffers a -1 to hit for their shooting this turn the Squad enters.The Squad never can charge the same turn it entered from the flank that way.
Mutant overlord:
The end of order 2 CP, once per Turn. All units that have the Curse of Mutation rule improve their WS and M by 1.
Heretek Magos:
Powered by Hellfire 2 CP, chose a vehicle in the same Detachment as the Heretek Magos, All weapons add +1 shot to their profile, this will get doubled by Grinding advance, and improve their AP by 1. Every to hit roll of 1 genereates a hit against the vehicle using the power.
Master of machines 2 CP: Whenever your Heretek Magos repairs a vehicle, instead of D3 W the Vehicle gains 3W +D3 back.
Arch-Heretic-Revolutionary:
Guerrilas : 1 CP per Squad: before the start of the game you may chose to spend 1 CP per Renegade Veteran or Disciple Squad. All untis that shoot at these unit outside of 12" gain -1 to hit to their shooting attacks.
These Archdemagouge stratagems gave me an idea: wouldn't the Devotions better off as Specialist Detachments? The buff to the Archdemagouge would come from the Specialist Warlord Trait and the bonus to the unit from the Specialist Stratagem. This would make the army composition leaner and less confusing because you can throw all the tidbits into the Specialist Detachments rather than have 5 pages of Arch-Demagogue options and descriptions, and make the Devotions work in Power Level games too.
Also, I feel like the army list is getting a little murky there and there. The War Plans are rather complicated for Army Traits, for example. Other special abilities also have an unnecessarily high amount of components I think. Some rules come out a little strangely in the 8th edition environment, like what happens with Covenants in Power Level games.
AtoMaki wrote: These Archdemagouge stratagems gave me an idea: wouldn't the Devotions better off as Specialist Detachments? The buff to the Archdemagouge would come from the Specialist Warlord Trait and the bonus to the unit from the Specialist Stratagem. This would make the army composition leaner and less confusing because you can throw all the tidbits into the Specialist Detachments rather than have 5 pages of Arch-Demagogue options and descriptions, and make the Devotions work in Power Level games too.
Also, I feel like the army list is getting a little murky there and there. The War Plans are rather complicated for Army Traits, for example. Other special abilities also have an unnecessarily high amount of components I think. Some rules come out a little strangely in the 8th edition environment, like what happens with Covenants in Power Level games.
I allready explained why i don't want to go into PL, mainly how do i value a squad with or without Militia training.
How do i value Master of the horde militia compared to regular militia in PL? Covenants are also treated as a equipment for the champion, i can not however justify that a Squad with a covenant / militia training costs the same, PL's inward balance is allready fragile, with such an army that is that customizable i doubt it would be a good idea.
As for the War plans, considering they are atm standins and i only really like one ATM i can understand why you would feel that way. However, i will not go the way of specialicst detachments/ unlocks.
One of my many reasons to rewrite the whole IA13 book was the lack of customizability, if i have to sacrifice PL then i will do so. I will however look again at certain demagogue devotions, especially the horde ones, he seems to have too much restrictions atm, probably cut away the no Squadron rule and militia training will also be available, but cost more.
(I realized that i probably still have PTSD from 7th edition unending host shenanigans.)
HOWEVER: IF i find the time and IF i have a good grasp on what is needed ATM for the codex and it is in a good enough balanced point, then i might, take the time and look for a PL conversion.
Another point, should it just be the Ogryn Packmaster that is affected by a covenant? Or should his hounds be affected to since I think they are meant to be demonic...
I basically just thought what would be the Modus operandi for these leaders.
They wrote themselves in other words.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Another point, should it just be the Ogryn Packmaster that is affected by a covenant? Or should his hounds be affected to since I think they are meant to be demonic...
The packmaster itself is like the champion of other squads so yes he influences the dogs, or should, have i missed that?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also didn't want another " shoot two times " thingy.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: I only asked because it didn't mention anything about covenants in his entry, so I was just curious what your thoughts on it were.
Then i either missed it or was confused.
To my knowledge they couldn't take it before I belive but tbh i always found that one strange.
So go ahead.
Renegades and Heretics revision by Not Online feedback (Left out feedback for things I thought were fine): Covenants: Khorne - Not a big fan of it personally, I feel like reroll wounds skews towards certain targets to hard. I think +1 Attack (+1 S too?) on the charge. Covenant of Slannesh – I think I’d prefer something like ASF, but that might be more me leaning towards the marks of old Covenant of Tzeentch – An odd one, not sure how I feel about it. Love the ignoring heavy weapons penalty, not sure on the overwatch on 5+, idk what I’d replace it with though.
Warplans: I like the idea of the warplans, however so far trench warfare is the only type I like atm. Here is my idea of what the 6 might be like. I preferred to keep it simple and inline with stuff we already see in codices. Unyielding Advance: Rapid Fire weapons at 18” (Shamelessly stolen from deathguard, I know, but what works works) Guidance of the Warp: Extend psyker powers by 6” (I know, another one stolen shamelessly, but hey, what can ya do?) Fanatical Zeal: Roll 2d6 take the lowest for morale (Better than the SM one, but the SM one is straight garbo tbh) Furious Assault: Reroll charges and advances Break their lines: -1 to LD for units within 6”, up to -3. (Night lords, happily stolen)
Baleful Judge: Honestly? I don’t think I’d take it, I’d much prefer just halving the casualties taken in morale… but it is inline with the Commisar, which is fair.
Master of Renegades: In general, I’d say allow one unit of the main ‘guys’ as an elite choice for each god. So Khorne Berserkers, Plauge Marines, Noise Marines and Rubric Marines. I’m also tempted to say each should get a dread for them, but sadly only the noise dread exists. I’d have a plague dread, berserker dread, and rubric dread. I can make statlines for them if you want, but I suppose this works too. For no covenant that works. Renegade Equipment: Banner of hate – Nice overall, I’d make it like the SM one though and make it in all phases
Vox-caster: I feel like it should be 2d6 take the highest, 2d6 in general seems way too strong. Command-Vox: Feel the same here. Chaos sigil: Works and helps a lot, although with that warplan idea might be redundant. Disciplines: I feel like we should have 6, perhaps 3 unique ones based on the covenant chosen? Devotions: Alright, to the fun stuff. Primaris-rogue Witch – Nice, although I might allow Disciple Champions to become lower level pyskers ala Rubric Marines Mutant Overlord – I feel like Milita should be able to take this, it’d just be nice to field a large blob of mutated guys with guns. Table is fine. Master of the Horde – Is the squad refilled at full size? Not much else to comment on this Heretek Magus – The units that purchase the upgrade should get the Dark Mechanicus keyword should they not? Bloody Handed Reaver – It’s be cool if they could purchase grav chutes, traitor scions! I’ll post stratagem thoughts/ideas later, just wanted to get this posted.
Left some feed back on things, just my personal take on alot of this.
Renegades and Heretics revision by Not Online feedback (Left out feedback for things I thought were fine):
Covenants:
Khorne - Not a big fan of it personally, I feel like reroll wounds skews towards certain targets to hard. I think +1 Attack (+1 S too?) on the charge.
Covenant of Slannesh – I think I’d prefer something like ASF, but that might be more me leaning towards the marks of old
Covenant of Tzeentch – An odd one, not sure how I feel about it. Love the ignoring heavy weapons penalty, not sure on the overwatch on 5+, idk what I’d replace it with though.
Warplans: I like the idea of the warplans, however so far trench warfare is the only type I like atm. Here is my idea of what the 6 might be like. I preferred to keep it simple and inline with stuff we already see in codices.
Unyielding Advance: Rapid Fire weapons at 18” (Shamelessly stolen from deathguard, I know, but what works works)
Guidance of the Warp: Extend psyker powers by 6” (I know, another one stolen shamelessly, but hey, what can ya do?)
Fanatical Zeal: Roll 2d6 take the lowest for morale (Better than the SM one, but the SM one is straight garbo tbh)
Furious Assault: Reroll charges and advances
Break their lines: -1 to LD for units within 6”, up to -3. (Night lords, happily stolen)
Baleful Judge: Honestly? I don’t think I’d take it, I’d much prefer just halving the casualties taken in morale… but it is inline with the Commisar, which is fair.
Master of Renegades:
In general, I’d say allow one unit of the main ‘guys’ as an elite choice for each god. So Khorne Berserkers, Plauge Marines, Noise Marines and Rubric Marines. I’m also tempted to say each should get a dread for them, but sadly only the noise dread exists. I’d have a plague dread, berserker dread, and rubric dread. I can make statlines for them if you want, but I suppose this works too. For no covenant that works.
Renegade Equipment:
Banner of hate – Nice overall, I’d make it like the SM one though and make it in all phases
Vox-caster: I feel like it should be 2d6 take the highest, 2d6 in general seems way too strong.
Command-Vox: Feel the same here.
Chaos sigil: Works and helps a lot, although with that warplan idea might be redundant.
Disciplines: I feel like we should have 6, perhaps 3 unique ones based on the covenant chosen?
Devotions: Alright, to the fun stuff.
Primaris-rogue Witch – Nice, although I might allow Disciple Champions to become lower level pyskers ala Rubric Marines
Mutant Overlord – I feel like Milita should be able to take this, it’d just be nice to field a large blob of mutated guys with guns. Table is fine.
Master of the Horde – Is the squad refilled at full size? Not much else to comment on this
Heretek Magus – The units that purchase the upgrade should get the Dark Mechanicus keyword should they not?
Bloody Handed Reaver – It’s be cool if they could purchase grav chutes, traitor scions!
I’ll post stratagem thoughts/ideas later, just wanted to get this posted.
Left some feed back on things, just my personal take on alot of this.
Beautiful, this is wanted:
I just realized i messed up with the Voxes, they are supposed to discard the lowest one.
War plans i mentioned that i wont have certains that are to specific, in this case no, you won't get a psyker buff, you wont get it, end of discussion.
The rest is too happily stolen. my 2 cents.
Yes master of the horde redoploys the whole unit again. Meaning if your 30 man militia blob took 29 casualities and you decide to remove the last dude, and make the 4+ you will get the whole squad back.
Psy is indeed something i am working on however, the bigger stuff will be coming with the Archheretic.
Balefull Judge is mostly a concern because of 3ppm troops.
Masterenforcer will do however the old immunity rule, also you don't buy enforcers for morale alone now, but rather for the Combat drugs they bring.
On the mutant overlord, why should he get to mutate militia?
Renegades and Heretics revision by Not Online feedback (Left out feedback for things I thought were fine):
Covenants:
Khorne - Not a big fan of it personally, I feel like reroll wounds skews towards certain targets to hard. I think +1 Attack (+1 S too?) on the charge.
Covenant of Slannesh – I think I’d prefer something like ASF, but that might be more me leaning towards the marks of old
Covenant of Tzeentch – An odd one, not sure how I feel about it. Love the ignoring heavy weapons penalty, not sure on the overwatch on 5+, idk what I’d replace it with though.
Warplans: I like the idea of the warplans, however so far trench warfare is the only type I like atm. Here is my idea of what the 6 might be like. I preferred to keep it simple and inline with stuff we already see in codices.
Unyielding Advance: Rapid Fire weapons at 18” (Shamelessly stolen from deathguard, I know, but what works works)
Guidance of the Warp: Extend psyker powers by 6” (I know, another one stolen shamelessly, but hey, what can ya do?)
Fanatical Zeal: Roll 2d6 take the lowest for morale (Better than the SM one, but the SM one is straight garbo tbh)
Furious Assault: Reroll charges and advances
Break their lines: -1 to LD for units within 6”, up to -3. (Night lords, happily stolen)
Baleful Judge: Honestly? I don’t think I’d take it, I’d much prefer just halving the casualties taken in morale… but it is inline with the Commisar, which is fair.
Master of Renegades:
In general, I’d say allow one unit of the main ‘guys’ as an elite choice for each god. So Khorne Berserkers, Plauge Marines, Noise Marines and Rubric Marines. I’m also tempted to say each should get a dread for them, but sadly only the noise dread exists. I’d have a plague dread, berserker dread, and rubric dread. I can make statlines for them if you want, but I suppose this works too. For no covenant that works.
Renegade Equipment:
Banner of hate – Nice overall, I’d make it like the SM one though and make it in all phases
Vox-caster: I feel like it should be 2d6 take the highest, 2d6 in general seems way too strong.
Command-Vox: Feel the same here.
Chaos sigil: Works and helps a lot, although with that warplan idea might be redundant.
Disciplines: I feel like we should have 6, perhaps 3 unique ones based on the covenant chosen?
Devotions: Alright, to the fun stuff.
Primaris-rogue Witch – Nice, although I might allow Disciple Champions to become lower level pyskers ala Rubric Marines
Mutant Overlord – I feel like Milita should be able to take this, it’d just be nice to field a large blob of mutated guys with guns. Table is fine.
Master of the Horde – Is the squad refilled at full size? Not much else to comment on this
Heretek Magus – The units that purchase the upgrade should get the Dark Mechanicus keyword should they not?
Bloody Handed Reaver – It’s be cool if they could purchase grav chutes, traitor scions!
I’ll post stratagem thoughts/ideas later, just wanted to get this posted.
Left some feed back on things, just my personal take on alot of this.
Beautiful, this is wanted:
I just realized i messed up with the Voxes, they are supposed to discard the lowest one.
War plans i mentioned that i wont have certains that are to specific, in this case no, you won't get a psyker buff, you wont get it, end of discussion.
The rest is too happily stolen. my 2 cents.
Yes master of the horde redoploys the whole unit again. Meaning if your 30 man militia blob took 29 casualities and you decide to remove the last dude, and make the 4+ you will get the whole squad back.
Psy is indeed something i am working on however, the bigger stuff will be coming with the Archheretic.
Balefull Judge is mostly a concern because of 3ppm troops.
Masterenforcer will do however the old immunity rule, also you don't buy enforcers for morale alone now, but rather for the Combat drugs they bring.
On the mutant overlord, why should he get to mutate militia?
Cool on the voxes, I was confused lol.
Why no pysker buff? I mean, it's chaos, it makes sense for there to be alot of chaos groups that focus around using the warp to make up for their weakness as humans.
Yes it's stolen, but imo that's better balance wise, when things get to unique balancing them with other stuff becomes extremely difficult, I'd like for all to be more unique but I also want to see it kept in line with other books.
Cool on master of the horde.
I think immunity to morale is too strong, if your keeping it.
Why wouldn't he be able to mutate militia? I mean, the way I see it, if the Magos can modify militia, why can't the mutant?
Most of your overhaul I like, but I'm going to try it with both sets of warplans as I think we have very different ideas on how those should play out.
Are 30 psykers not enough?
31 if you coun't the primaris rogue witch?
Masterenforcer is 0-1 and only for the arch heretic revolutionary.
Because the Mutant will field mutants. Militia is something that represents Cultists- Revolutionaires- Servotizised Dark mech shenanigans and Traitor guard.
As for the warplans, i will restrict them too 4, mainly because they are a overarching doctrine.
And out of them i feel like trenchwarfare is the one i like the most aswell as superior firepower.
I am thinking about Mass Assult one, but that is about it.
AS for the Traitor Scions, well no dropping in but i feel like you would like the stratagem for the bloody handed reaver.
Not Online!!! wrote: Are 30 psykers not enough? 31 if you coun't the primaris rogue witch?
Masterenforcer is 0-1 and only for the arch heretic revolutionary.
Because the Mutant will field mutants. Militia is something that represents Cultists- Revolutionaires- Servotizised Dark mech shenanigans and Traitor guard.
As for the warplans, i will restrict them too 4, mainly because they are a overarching doctrine. And out of them i feel like trenchwarfare is the one i like the most aswell as superior firepower.
I am thinking about Mass Assult one, but that is about it.
AS for the Traitor Scions, well no dropping in but i feel like you would like the stratagem for the bloody handed reaver.
Fair enough, I'm making my own version on this basically just based on some of my personal disagreements, once I'm done I'll post it so we can compare and discuss.
I imagine Warplans as Army Traits, and Covenants/Devotions as just further customization.
I really like the idea of pyskers leading squads and being more integrated than being in covens, though that should be an option too.
That is true, but Mutant as a unit can't take guns, I'm imagining something like Infested marines vs Zombies of SC2.
I do like the strategem, I just think it should be an option you can purchase.
I really like the idea of pyskers leading squads and being more integrated than being in covens, though that should be an option too.
NO, they are deployed within 6" of each other, but afterwards are just charachters hanging around.
BTW: in IA13 Psykers were never allowed to join any squad.
Mutants have guns, autoguns, lasguns.
As for the problem with the grenadiers, they are 9ppm with Carapace and grenadier upgrade. that makes it difficult, since they also can benefit from covenants. This is why i don't really like the idea of Dropping in. Ofcourse i could consider it but it'd be a option that regular Veterans also can and could buy.
I really like the idea of pyskers leading squads and being more integrated than being in covens, though that should be an option too.
NO, they are deployed within 6" of each other, but afterwards are just charachters hanging around.
BTW: in IA13 Psykers were never allowed to join any squad.
Mutants have guns, autoguns, lasguns.
As for the problem with the grenadiers, they are 9ppm with Carapace and grenadier upgrade. that makes it difficult, since they also can benefit from covenants. This is why i don't really like the idea of Dropping in. Ofcourse i could consider it but it'd be a option that regular Veterans also can and could buy.
I know, I consider this an overhaul of the current gak index rather than just updating IA13, as it's a completely different edition so things have to be taken in account. IMO, I prefer Pyskers as champions and as Covens, also missed the mutant thing, my b. I need to take a look at scion prices because I want to match that up for Grenadiers.
A scion is 9 pts, a grenadier is 7 pts but has SV 5+ and no Deepstrike. Carapace is 2ppm/ veteran so you'd still miss out on deepstrike, if i implement deepstrike buyable then i will cost it around 1ppm
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know, I consider this an overhaul of the current gak index rather than just updating IA13, as it's a completely different edition so things have to be taken in account. IMO
I honestly don't feel that way, the current index, beyond lending me some points, can burn in hell for all i care.
There is imo also not really a need to further expand the IA13 index since it allready covers alot more, that said the Heretek Magos also adding the Dark Mechanicus Keyword to upgraded squad is a good idea.
Not Online!!! wrote: A scion is 9 pts, a grenadier is 7 pts but has SV 5+ and no Deepstrike. Carapace is 2ppm/ veteran so you'd still miss out on deepstrike, if i implement deepstrike buyable then i will cost it around 1ppm
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know, I consider this an overhaul of the current gak index rather than just updating IA13, as it's a completely different edition so things have to be taken in account. IMO
I honestly don't feel that way, the current index, beyond lending me some points, can burn in hell for all i care.
There is imo also not really a need to further expand the IA13 index since it allready covers alot more, that said the Heretek Magos also adding the Dark Mechanicus Keyword to upgraded squad is a good idea.
Oh I completely agree that the current index can burn in hell, what I more mean is that I feel that more liberties can be taken with IA13 to improve it around 8th.
So i and SirHeckington had some fairly insightfull discussions.
First talk War-Plans
The base idea was: Have for fairly Generic ones:
Then there are 4 more, God specific ones, and one for armies that have no god alignment.
Some points of note:
The god ones are unlocked when all units within a Army that can have a Covenant have excactly the same one:
Nurgle gets +1 T, Slaanesh gets the always fights first, Khorne get's +1 S, Tzeentch gets a Free reroll per unit.
The non covenanted one is atm in the air.
So far so good, well except that the covenants boni seem a bit restricted, therefore i wanted to hear the opinion of you if they should just be passives which are added on top of the War Plans.
________________________________________________________
mobile warfare:
Tanks count as Vox casters? units within 3” can use them like one?
Infantry gains +1 SV if within 3” of a Tank? Tanks within 3” of infantry gain the -1 to hit against them?
Mass Assault:
Would be all about hordes and maintenance of them. How DO?Also name it fanatical Crusaders? Abyssal crusaders? meh...
How about Units that number more than 10 models gain +1 to A/T/S ? (Not sure on what, maybee just more movement for infantry like militia/ mutants by 2?
Trenchwarfare:
+1 SV if remaining stationary. Artillery gains +1 Shot? (would make quad launchers interesting and Heavy mortars)
Superior Firepower:
Heavy Weapons with more than 1 shot add +1 shot (applies to vehicles easily aswell also autocannon) Deny abuse for lascannons.
Then tere is the issue atm with the Veterans:
Basically they seem a bit to similiar to the Mutant / Militia.
Suggestion would be to reintroduce the specialisations for the Veterans however every Veteran needs to buy one:
the bonus would be: Huge customization, specialized, and very much usefull.
Negative, cheap no more: Atleast 2 ppm except infiltrators which will just be a scout movment, that one is 1ppm.
may I introduce to you the Artillery Tyrant: 0-1 HQ limit overall, but a rather powerfull fellow:
Profile: A commander.
Equipment: Brutal Assault weapon, frag grenades and either a laspistol or autopistol. The Renegade Commander can exchange his pistol with a Lasgun or with a weapon from the “Ranged Weapons list”. The Tyrant may replace his Brutal Assault Weapon with a Weapon on the Melee Weapons list. Further Options may available through Demagogue Devotions.
This Unit may also buy a Covenant for 10pts, Carapace armor for 5pts.
This model must buy one of the following:
Mortar Support: 30 pts.
Fieldguns Support: 60 pts
Earthshaker Support 100 pts.
→ Reload you dogs!: Instead of shooting or calling in Support the Artillery Tyrant may chose a friendly piece of Artillery (Heavy mortars, Quad launchers, Earthshakers, etc no vehicle based ones). The BS of the chosen piece changes to 3+, additionally the Artillery Pice fires an additional D3 shots. If the piece normally fires 2D6 discard the lowest or any similar way, roll 2D3 and discard the lowest as well for determining the additional Shots.
→ Artillery strikes:
Once per game the Artillery Tyrant can call in a Artillery Strike.
Put down a marker where the Tyrant has LOS. The marker remains there for the rest of the game. All units that walk within a 6” of the Marker, even just one Model, or walk through, suffer the Artillery Strike shooting, as determined in their Profile.
Arty Strike Profile:
Mortar Support: 3D6 S4 ap 0 D1
Fieldgun Support: 3D6 S7 ap -1 D1
Earthshaker Support: 6D6 (discard the three lowest) S9 AP-2 DD3
The main suggestion is therefor for the war-plans to have a tiered system.
Basically: The regulars, and then if youfullfill the requirements you gain another boost on top of that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For unaligned, I would suggest something like:
Blood Money - Whenever a unit you control destroys another enemy unit, add +1 to either it's WS or BS. If this would improve its skill to a 3+ or better, it cannot choose this option. Marauders may take this skill unless it would improve it's skill to a 2+ or better in which case it cannot choose that option.
If at any point during the battle a unit you control falls back, it loses any bonuses it has gained through this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For unaligned, I would suggest something like:
Blood Money - Whenever a unit you control destroys another enemy unit, add +1 to either it's WS or BS. If this would improve its skill to a 3+ or better, it cannot choose this option. Marauders may take this skill unless it would improve it's skill to a 2+ or better in which case it cannot choose that option.
If at any point during the battle a unit you control falls back, it loses any bonuses it has gained through this.
All units.
Yes walking charachters through will get them hit aswell.
A mercenary warband?
Kinda like the Freebotaz?
It could work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a Sidenote: Psykers seem to be a bit to restricted with the rules we gave them in the update. That has more to do with the lackluster Psy table, which is comparatively small.
Basically, the idea was to introduce a high ranking member of a Cult/cabal, which has ofcourse a certain contract on him.
The idea is to have him and his Assessor be a HQ unit.
Basically, the concept would be Sacrifice models in units to strengthen / cast stronger powers.
So far he is only a concept but a more interesting one and one that did not really get explored in either the Vraks list, Lost and the damned list or IA13.
Considering however that there are multiple stories revolving around such dark pacts it would be strage to not conceptualize a model that has them.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: We should toy around with the idea of being able to summon a demon in exchange for sacrificing 2 infantry squads or 1 squad of disciples
Take to Big a daemon and it would be to strong, to small and nobody would field him.
Apologies for really late reply about giant spawn/spines beast. Here is the pick. Nurgle themed but could be used to make most anyone with a bit of imagination.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: A couple of minor things:
- Plague Claws are not listed under the melee weapons and have no point value (1 per. btw)
- There is no Ranged Weapon list
Lol, seriously forgot the plague claws Feck
The ranged weapons list atm isn't in there because i may or may not intend to give some weapons out for Champions.
Edit :
The ranged weapons list will surely include the following :
Bolter, boltpistol, Lasgun / autogun, laspistol /autopistol, Plasmapistol
The list is basically the one out of IA 13, i don't see an issue with it that way, but it was one reason I curbed the access of special weapons a bit for militia, (3stubbers on a 10 squad would've been a bit excessive)
Reading your list there reminded me of why I never got on too well with the old r+h list, too many options. I know this is just my opinion but the current one has too few options for creating your ideal theme and the old one has too many and was too complex. I would prefer a middle ground where the rules were generic enough but varied enough. I know this isn’t very helpful and all a bit Goldilocks of me but thought I’d comment on it. Maybe there is a way to streamline the rules so you don’t need a flow chart to pick your army. .??
Andykp wrote: Reading your list there reminded me of why I never got on too well with the old r+h list, too many options. I know this is just my opinion but the current one has too few options for creating your ideal theme and the old one has too many and was too complex. I would prefer a middle ground where the rules were generic enough but varied enough. I know this isn’t very helpful and all a bit Goldilocks of me but thought I’d comment on it. Maybe there is a way to streamline the rules so you don’t need a flow chart to pick your army. .??
Complex? I mean get the demagogue and marks you like, done.
it's no other than army traits imo.
What really needs to happen sometime is some propper formating though
Unless the rules become official I'm SoL. My friends insist I have to use official rules... Which sucks since they play all the mainstream armies like Custodes and Dark Angels which have support.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Unless the rules become official I'm SoL. My friends insist I have to use official rules... Which sucks since they play all the mainstream armies like Custodes and Dark Angels which have support.
I mean, i threathened them to clear up their mess and fix their rules or refund me for my e-book,
First time i got an answer out of FW part of them.
And it was fast.
Well for one they defered me to the Epub part of their team and they would take my complaint to the rules team, which is as stated before quite alot more then until now.
so I figured I’d go ahead and create a thread for it so as to not derail the tactics thread.
I'll bet you will like it.
Instead of the aura however he gains the following:
