81431
Post by: tag8833
My question is: Are units placed into Cult Ambush during deployment that are then moved to "Underground" via They Came From Below... able to arrive on the battlefield during the 1st battle round?
Appropriate rules quotes below
From the GSC Codex:
The Came from Below...
Use this Strategem before you reveal an ambush marker. Select up to 3 units (excluding VEHICLES) from your army that are set up in ambush. For each unit that you select, remove one ambush marker from the battlefield. The selected units are no longer set up in ambush are are instead set up underground as described in the Cult Ambush ability
Cult Ambush
...
When you set up a unit underground, it can emerge at the end of any of your Movement phases - set the unit up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from enemy models.
...
From the GSC FAQ:
Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used once the battle has started.
From the Big FAQ:
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
81759
Post by: BaconCatBug
Yes, they can arrive turn 1.
"units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round." A unit that was placed in Ambush (as per the Errata, assuming this is the correct FAQ) states "‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes of Tactical Reserves.’", so they start the turn on the battlefield, so are not off the battlefield during deployment, thus are not limited by Tactical Reserves.
117876
Post by: HMint
I agree, there is really no other way to read this.
Especially as they go so far as to point this mechanic out in the FAQ for the stratagem.
And I am also absolutely sure that they did not intent this, with the way they tried to remove any and all turn 1 shocks from the game. Major fail.
So do we just play by the rules until the next FAQ comes around then?
33527
Post by: Niiai
Yeah. I assume so.
95818
Post by: Stux
Yup, this is clearly the RAW. At least for now.
For what it is worth, this feels like something that will get FAQd. But until it does, these are the rules.
33527
Post by: Niiai
I don't know. Is it so different then the orks pulling of da jump? I mean, if we want to use a perfect ambush turn 1 to 3, that are 10 CP. Pluss some CP for re-rolling charges,
117278
Post by: Banville
HMint wrote:I agree, there is really no other way to read this.
Especially as they go so far as to point this mechanic out in the FAQ for the stratagem.
And I am also absolutely sure that they did not intent this, with the way they tried to remove any and all turn 1 shocks from the game. Major fail.
So do we just play by the rules until the next FAQ comes around then?
It's absolutely intentional. For all the reasons you've listed above.
81431
Post by: tag8833
HMint wrote:I agree, there is really no other way to read this.
Especially as they go so far as to point this mechanic out in the FAQ for the stratagem.
And I am also absolutely sure that they did not intent this, with the way they tried to remove any and all turn 1 shocks from the game. Major fail.
So do we just play by the rules until the next FAQ comes around then?
That was exactly my thinking, but it seems like the GSC FAQ just doubled down on it, instead of removing it. It feels WAY too gamey to be intentional, but sometimes GW just goes with obvious mistakes, and lets them ride. For instance 72" on the serpent shield for 3-4 years.
100848
Post by: tneva82
Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no
95818
Post by: Stux
tneva82 wrote:Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no
Oh, that's a very good point!
From the FAQ:
Q: In regards to ambush markers and revealing them, what is the
correct order if one player has other interactions that would take
place at the same time (e.g. Dark Matter Crystal)?
A: Revealing ambush markers is the final step, after all
other ‘end of the Movement phase’ interactions have
been completed.
So by the time you use the Strat, it's too late for them to arrive from Underground, they have to wait for turn 2 anyway. Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless you're going second...
117278
Post by: Banville
 Stux wrote:tneva82 wrote:Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no
Oh, that's a very good point!
From the FAQ:
Q: In regards to ambush markers and revealing them, what is the
correct order if one player has other interactions that would take
place at the same time (e.g. Dark Matter Crystal)?
A: Revealing ambush markers is the final step, after all
other ‘end of the Movement phase’ interactions have
been completed.
So by the time you use the Strat, it's too late for them to arrive from Underground, they have to wait for turn 2 anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're going second...
Other interactions aren't happening, though. The blips are revealed at the start of your movement phase, not the end.
100848
Post by: tneva82
Are you sure? That faq entry makes no sense if they are revealed at the end(unless there is difference in revealing your and enemy turns)
Dunno. Don't have codex and that is rule not quoted
95818
Post by: Stux
tneva82 wrote:Are you sure? That faq entry makes no sense if they are revealed at the end(unless there is difference in revealing your and enemy turns)
Dunno. Don't have codex and that is rule not quoted
Luckily I do!
If you go first it's start of the movement phase. If you go second, it's end of the opponent's movement phase.
So that FAQ only applies if you go second actually, in which case it's not your movement phase and you're free to deploy them in your turn from Underground.
100884
Post by: Cephalobeard
Banville wrote: Stux wrote:tneva82 wrote:Only possible reason for no raw i can come up with is when are ambush markers revealed? If same time or before ds then yes but if after no
Oh, that's a very good point!
From the FAQ:
Q: In regards to ambush markers and revealing them, what is the
correct order if one player has other interactions that would take
place at the same time (e.g. Dark Matter Crystal)?
A: Revealing ambush markers is the final step, after all
other ‘end of the Movement phase’ interactions have
been completed.
So by the time you use the Strat, it's too late for them to arrive from Underground, they have to wait for turn 2 anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you're going second...
Other interactions aren't happening, though. The blips are revealed at the start of your movement phase, not the end.
Start of your movement phase, end of opponents movement phase.
The distinction matters.
117278
Post by: Banville
Yep. Blips are revealed at the start of the GSC player's movement phase, if they're going first. If the GSC player is going second they're revealed at the end of the opponent's movement phase. The strat kicks in as the blips are revealed.
100848
Post by: tneva82
Ok then guess answer is yes except for certain individual who will likely claim faq makes no such distinction and ergo replaces whole rule with net
33527
Post by: Niiai
Either way it works by raw.
100848
Post by: tneva82
Untill you have raw nut claim there is no more start of turn reveal as faq makes no such claim and just says reveals are after end of move phase 
But normal people will be t1 assaulting unless gw changes wordings. Got to kees in mind
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Post by: Banville
tneva82 wrote:Untill you have raw nut claim there is no more start of turn reveal as faq makes no such claim and just says reveals are after end of move phase
But normal people will be t1 assaulting unless gw changes wordings. Got to kees in mind
That FAQ answer is in response to a very specific question, though. I know people are grizzling over what is a very cheap way to potentially get off a first turn charge/chaff removal but the rule seems to be written and operates exactly as intended. The FAQ even underlines the fact that blips are considered deployed.
Weird, I know, but it seems pretty cut-and-dried.
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Post by: Timeshadow
Hopefully we will get a definitive answer to this before April as I have an ITC tournament 13-14th and will be playing my GSC. If this is true I plan to being all the revelant FAQ's printed out and speak with the tourny judges before the game to be 100% sure.
122893
Post by: ▇ ▇ ▇
T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.
1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.
117278
Post by: Banville
▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.
1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.
Why wouldn't that work if the GSC player goes first?
100848
Post by: tneva82
▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.
1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.
If they count as being deployed on board then it works either way. GSC goes first, start of movement phase blips are revealed(barring mr. "I play RAW 100% despite it being provenly impossible" claiming that FAQ overwrote blip reveal turns so that they are now always revealed at the end of movement regardless of whose turn it is) so you use TCFB removing 3 units. Then end of movement you bring them back
119760
Post by: Thepatriarch
Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.
117278
Post by: Banville
Thepatriarch wrote:Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.
It says use it WHEN you reveal ambush markers. And you do that at the beginning of the GSC player's Movement phase T1, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's movement phase, if they're going 1st.
122893
Post by: ▇ ▇ ▇
tneva82 wrote:▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.
1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.
If they count as being deployed on board then it works either way. GSC goes first, start of movement phase blips are revealed(barring mr. "I play RAW 100% despite it being provenly impossible" claiming that FAQ overwrote blip reveal turns so that they are now always revealed at the end of movement regardless of whose turn it is) so you use TCFB removing 3 units. Then end of movement you bring them back
Yes, you are actually on point. So it can be considered as 1 CP Da Jump for 3 units.
119760
Post by: Thepatriarch
Banville wrote:Thepatriarch wrote:Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.
It says use it WHEN you reveal ambush markers. And you do that at the beginning of the GSC player's Movement phase T1, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's movement phase, if they're going 1st.
Please point out where it says when?
https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/gsc-they-came-from-below.jpg
117278
Post by: Banville
Thepatriarch wrote:Banville wrote:Thepatriarch wrote:Doesn't They Came from below say "use this strategem before you reveal an ambush marker", you could use it any time before revealing it (as opposed to it saying when you reveal an ambush marker). You could use it during your movement phase, then still deepstrike that same T1 movement phase.
It says use it WHEN you reveal ambush markers. And you do that at the beginning of the GSC player's Movement phase T1, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's movement phase, if they're going 1st.
Please point out where it says when?
https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/gsc-they-came-from-below.jpg
I stand corrected. It still has no material impact, though, because the blips are revealed at the start of your movement or the end of your opponent's. You can't start shuffling blips around the board.
100848
Post by: tneva82
▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:tneva82 wrote:▇ ▇ ▇ wrote:T1 Deepstrike with They Came From Below stratagem is possible but works only if you go second. Tactical reserves rule is void after the game has begun.
1) Deploy 50% of GSC units on the table
2) Opponent goes first
3) At the end of opponents movement phase use TCFB
4) At the end of GSC T1 movement you can bring the previous 3 TCFB from Undergound (Deep Strike)
5) The rest of the GSC units in Underground (Deep Strike) are allowed to come out GSC players T2 end of movement.
If they count as being deployed on board then it works either way. GSC goes first, start of movement phase blips are revealed(barring mr. "I play RAW 100% despite it being provenly impossible" claiming that FAQ overwrote blip reveal turns so that they are now always revealed at the end of movement regardless of whose turn it is) so you use TCFB removing 3 units. Then end of movement you bring them back
Yes, you are actually on point. So it can be considered as 1 CP Da Jump for 3 units.
Yup. More than 3x as powerful as da jump/etc for 1CP. Neat ability if GW doesn't say otherwise.
119760
Post by: Thepatriarch
Cult ambush used to be exempt from the tactical reserve rules. GSC being better at infiltration/deepstriking made perfect sense considering the lore/fluff. Giving GSC 3 units to deepstrike in turn 1 for 1 CP makes much more sense then Necrons/Orcs being able to deepstrike in turn 1 when GSC can't, and is actually a good balance between being able to deepstrike half your army in T1, or no units at all.
117719
Post by: Sunny Side Up
Thepatriarch wrote:Cult ambush used to be exempt from the tactical reserve rules. GSC being better at infiltration/deepstriking made perfect sense considering the lore/fluff. Giving GSC 3 units to deepstrike in turn 1 for 1 CP makes much more sense then Necrons/Orcs being able to deepstrike in turn 1 when GSC can't, and is actually a good balance between being able to deepstrike half your army in T1, or no units at all.
Sure. It's perfectly justifiable from a background view.
Just the roundabout way we arrived at this point IMO makes me think we might not have heard the last of it.
The original RAW wording of, pre- FAQ, of the blips truly meant they actually were all Tactical Reserves (as the wording in the Codex is 'instead of deploying on the battlefield') and everything under blips was, hardcore RAW, destroyed in matched play turn 1 if you used the beta rules for tactical reserves (making it abundantly clear, if GW previews weren't enough, that this wasn't the intend).
Now they FAQed the blips to work as (presumably) intended, while 'underground' being presumably intended to be the 'normal deepstrike', with this stratagem straddling the two variants of Cult Ambush being extraordinarily powerful because if it.
If a 1st turn deepstrike was the intention, I would've guessed they'd have phrased the stratagem very differently from the start and maybe made it more expensive, so I think we might not've seen the last of it, especially if/when/how the tactical reserves rules and restrictions for matched play (which are all still beta rules btw) get a final version at some point (March?).
33527
Post by: Niiai
While it might be true that the current raw was not intensional, it might also be true that it is intensional. Other factions can pull of similar things with da jump as an example. GSC are the masters of ambush in the fluff, it wouod not be unreasonable that GW intended for them to have first turn ambushes.
What is obserd is the codex is already 2 weeks old, and now we have to wait until march to find out? How long are the rules supoosed to be in a quartane? Just play with it raw until then.
107700
Post by: alextroy
Don't be so sure. It took GW 1 whole day to revise the Vigilus FAQ Document. They may see this oversight and correct it immediately.
Or not. Time will tell.
18622
Post by: Lord Clinto
 Niiai wrote:What is obserd is the codex is already 2 weeks old, and now we have to wait until march to find out?
I love this; it's so GW. =)
Though to be fair, March is this Friday...not that I expect the 1st Big 2019 FAQ until nearly the last minute of the 31st of March...or that GW will have enough time to sift through the GSC data to properly correct the two-day old GSC FAQ for the two-week old GSC Codex...
118410
Post by: ikeulhu
Not sure why everyone is expecting a March FAQ, they told us last year to expect it in April instead.
18622
Post by: Lord Clinto
LOL! even better!
23136
Post by: Solidcrash
 ikeulhu wrote:Not sure why everyone is expecting a March FAQ, they told us last year to expect it in April instead.
If it’s April they say.. then we better expect it arrive in June.
15582
Post by: blaktoof
GW Facebook page has said there is no interaction with this and tactical reserves, and this is used to put units I to reserves to come out turn 2 or later in matched play.
Yeah yeah fb isn't official, but the blurb about day jump being used turn 1 was in their fb..
Basically the unit was never there if they were in reserves from they came from below, or you run into the whole they were there but you are putting them into reserves and you cant enter and leave reserves in the same turn.
Ignoring the step where they go underground (reserves) to try and Ace them is ignoring that you put them into reserves that same turn.
122893
Post by: ▇ ▇ ▇
I wouldn't be so sure the FB team knows exactly what they are talking about:
Screen grab of the Beta rules:
http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/attachment/download/2636
100848
Post by: tneva82
You need to be registered to see that so no help.
But like it or not FB posts contain these days also official rule clarifications.
Best thing to do is not to invest hard money on assumption that T1 DS is legal if that money is basically lost if it turns out not. Use it if you want but be mindful it could very well turn out "nope sorry that was not intention" and have it removed basically any day. Thus spending money that would be lost in that case is not smart idea. Of course if that money spent is useful anyway fair enough.
122893
Post by: ▇ ▇ ▇
Doh!
Here:
117278
Post by: Banville
Since blips are considered deployed, that allows the first turn deep strike, right?
15582
Post by: blaktoof
The issue is they came from below states that instead of being in ambush they are now considered to be underground.
The player also has to do this prior to revealing any ambush blips.
This leads to two possible interpretations.
1. When the unit is now considered to be underground replaces entirely that it was in ambush, so it doesn't count as having been on the table during deployment.
2. Considered now underground means it was in ambush and also is now underground. In effect it was deployed to the table during deployment and the change of that status is from the unit entering reserves when they came from below.
Couple of issues with picking 2, that you have to do this before revealing any bush markers heavily implies the intention that 1 is true, i.e. the unit counts as having been always underground. If the stratagem is letting the unit entering reserves from being deployed it wouldn't matter if they played this before any ambush blips are revealed.
Second issue, with picking 2 as the interpretation, no abilities you enter & exit or exit & enter reserves in the same turn. None. They came from below does not include specific permission to do so either.
Bonus second issue, GW community page has already stated the ability let's you put units into reserves for future turns in matched play
117278
Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote:The issue is they came from below states that instead of being in ambush they are now considered to be underground.
The player also has to do this prior to revealing any ambush blips.
This leads to two possible interpretations.
1. When the unit is now considered to be underground replaces entirely that it was in ambush, so it doesn't count as having been on the table during deployment.
2. Considered now underground means it was in ambush and also is now underground. In effect it was deployed to the table during deployment and the change of that status is from the unit entering reserves when they came from below.
Couple of issues with picking 2, that you have to do this before revealing any bush markers heavily implies the intention that 1 is true, i.e. the unit counts as having been always underground. If the stratagem is letting the unit entering reserves from being deployed it wouldn't matter if they played this before any ambush blips are revealed.
Second issue, with picking 2 as the interpretation, no abilities you enter & exit or exit & enter reserves in the same turn. None. They came from below does not include specific permission to do so either.
Bonus second issue, GW community page has already stated the ability let's you put units into reserves for future turns in matched play
But.... The FAQ explicitly states that blips are considered deployed units and it's only at the start of the movement phase that those blips are revealed, if going first, or at the end of the opponent's first movement phase.
119760
Post by: Thepatriarch
You mean like the tokens as deployment are a very unique mechanism to begin with? I fail to see your point.
I also think whoever answered the FB question didn't think of the fact that Cult Ambush started as an exception to the the rule. I can agree being able to T1 DS half your army was to much, I think deepstriking 3 units in turn 1 is a reasonable inbetween solution and that not allowing GSC to DS in turn 1 while other still can is ignoring the theme of the army/silly.
117278
Post by: Banville
Thepatriarch wrote:You mean like the tokens as deployment are a very unique mechanism to begin with? I fail to see your point.
I also think whoever answered the FB question didn't think of the fact that Cult Ambush started as an exception to the the rule. I can agree being able to T1 DS half your army was to much, I think deepstriking 3 units in turn 1 is a reasonable inbetween solution and that not allowing GSC to DS in turn 1 while other still can is ignoring the theme of the army/silly.
I completely agree. I think people are trying to punch a hole in what is a pretty watertight rule. And falling back on 'intent' even after an FAQ has doubled down on it, is scrambling a bit.
15582
Post by: blaktoof
But saying it let's you t1 DS is falling back on intent that they came from below being considered to have been underground instead of ambush is intending the unit was considered to be in ambush then went underground, which is not what the rule says.
119760
Post by: Thepatriarch
No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.
Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?
15582
Post by: blaktoof
Thepatriarch wrote:No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.
Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?
I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .
Makes sense huh?
119760
Post by: Thepatriarch
No your sentence actually doesn't make any sense to me at all, could you try and write it again in somewhat understandable English? Perhaps even add the text you think I am ignoring, that would also be helpful.
117278
Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote:Thepatriarch wrote:No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.
Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?
I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .
Makes sense huh?
What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?
122893
Post by: ▇ ▇ ▇
Quote from a different forum:
Westeros Major in Sweden and Adam from TFG has also stated T1 DS is allowed and that's how he will rule it until it is updated. He is part of the ITC creators and one of the bigger LVO judge's so many will follow his lead.
10953
Post by: JohnnyHell
Blips are to all intents and purposes deployed units, it seems. The models aren’t arriving from anywhere off the battlefield; their type is merely hidden from the opponent til they sight them. That seems to be the intent, from the rules and the FAQ.
15582
Post by: blaktoof
Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:Thepatriarch wrote:No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.
Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?
I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .
Makes sense huh?
What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?
Q: When using "they came from below" does it bypass matched play restrictions that prevent turn 1 reserves from arriving?
A: The stratagem doesn't have any impact on turn one reinforcements, but it will allow you to put more units into reserves for future turns in matched play games.
117278
Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:Thepatriarch wrote:No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.
Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?
I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .
Makes sense huh?
What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?
Q: When using "they came from below" does it bypass matched play restrictions that prevent turn 1 reserves from arriving?
A: The stratagem doesn't have any impact on turn one reinforcements, but it will allow you to put more units into reserves for future turns in matched play games.
Ah, you see, that was a really badly phrased question. We're not talking about Turn 1 reserves. We're talking about redeploying a unit that has already been deployed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And allowing it to 'pop up' 9" away. In fact the answer doesn't make any real sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The specific example of blips needs to be queried. It seems the person responding wasn't even thinking of them.
What I mean is, the very specific scenario needs to be put to them because I'm not certain the person is familiar with the mechanics of how it's being played out.
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Post by: blaktoof
 JohnnyHell wrote:Blips are to all intents and purposes deployed units, it seems. The models aren’t arriving from anywhere off the battlefield; their type is merely hidden from the opponent til they sight them. That seems to be the intent, from the rules and the FAQ.
The problem is the stratagem itself. It tells us the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush. In order to use the erratta that ambush units are considered on the table you would have to ignore rules from the stratagem.
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Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:Blips are to all intents and purposes deployed units, it seems. The models aren’t arriving from anywhere off the battlefield; their type is merely hidden from the opponent til they sight them. That seems to be the intent, from the rules and the FAQ.
The problem is the stratagem itself. It tells us the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush. In order to use the erratta that ambush units are considered on the table you would have to ignore rules from the stratagem.
I honestly don't get what you're saying. Being in ambush means being on the table. Being placed underground subsequently doesn't alter that. As long as you're on the table at the start, you can then deepstrike Turn 1, which you are because of Cult Ambush.
Am I missing something?
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Post by: blaktoof
You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
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Post by: Solidcrash
blaktoof wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:Thepatriarch wrote:No it's falling back on the rule that says that units that are deployed the battlefield at the start of the game can DS in turn 1 through abilities, strategems, and psychic powers.
Btw I just noticed they didn't mention relics, but I assume they work to?
I see so ignoring text from the rule you want to use and then stating a different rule then what the unit is considered to be means it still is considered to be deployed, then taking a post from the 40k community page that says units deployed can use certain things turnbe1 while also ignoring that the community page says this has no interaction with that rule and doesn't allow that to happen t1 allows the rule to work the way you think it does .
Makes sense huh?
What exactly does the FB post say that contradicts the Turn1 deepstrike? Does it say blips are not actually deployed and are actually considered reserves? Or does it say there was an oversight and some text was left out of the stratagem which would preclude 1st Turn strikes?
Q: When using "they came from below" does it bypass matched play restrictions that prevent turn 1 reserves from arriving?
A: The stratagem doesn't have any impact on turn one reinforcements, but it will allow you to put more units into reserves for future turns in matched play games.
That answer made it sound like turn one deep strike is not allow... this just said “but it will allow you to put more units into reserves”
This.... the Blips is just undeployment.... 
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Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
So, as has been said ad nauseum, it's effectively Da Jump on 3 units for 1 CP.
You're mistaken in arguing that a unit can't turn up Turn 1 after being place in reserves earlier in Turn 1.
I think there used to be 'ongoing reserves' in a previous edition. There's nothing like that now.
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Post by: tneva82
blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
Thing is strategem puts them out of battlefield after game has started. Going out of battlefield and coming out deep strike is legal as long as it's after deployment. Cases like that already exists. Only difference is this is lot more than 3x as effective
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Post by: Banville
tneva82 wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
Thing is strategem puts them out of battlefield after game has started. Going out of battlefield and coming out deep strike is legal as long as it's after deployment. Cases like that already exists. Only difference is this is lot more than 3x as effective
This. The strat should be 3CP but it works as intended imo.
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Post by: bananathug
Based on the FB post (WHICH IS NOT OFFICIAL) I think the interpretation that T1 DS was not intended but does work RAW seems to be the right one.
If they would have just said the blips count as deployed models only for rules governing deploying half of your army on the table but do not interact with reserve rules for deepstriking we wouldn't be having this issue. But they didn't and then didn't address it in the FAQ (doubling down as some have said in this thread).
I think the RAWs have it right but clearly it isn't RAI and is a results of sloppy rules writing (but I also thought that about the 1 point d6 hand flamers and uncapped MW from Onslaught)...
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Post by: Thepatriarch
blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
1) Deployment : the unit is a token and counts as being on the battlefield
2) Battleround 1 starts: at some point before revealing your tokens you use the strategem to put 3 tokens underground, moving 3 units to reserves
3) Given that these 3 units where on the battlefield during deployment they can deepstrike, even if you moved them to your reserves during battleround 1. Automatically Appended Next Post: bananathug wrote:Based on the FB post (WHICH IS NOT OFFICIAL) I think the interpretation that T1 DS was not intended but does work RAW seems to be the right one.
If they would have just said the blips count as deployed models only for rules governing deploying half of your army on the table but do not interact with reserve rules for deepstriking we wouldn't be having this issue. But they didn't and then didn't address it in the FAQ (doubling down as some have said in this thread).
I think the RAWs have it right but clearly it isn't RAI and is a results of sloppy rules writing (but I also thought that about the 1 point d6 hand flamers and uncapped MW from Onslaught)...
I'm not convinced it isn't RAI either, just that whomever answered the FB post didn't know that it was intended.
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Post by: Solidcrash
I am thinking about paint underground theme on 3 blips and hidden them... until when I use stratagem on this 3 blips I just simply put 3 blips with underground painted anywhere on battlefield soon as I remove 3 normal blips. To avoid confusion.
Or if we are not allow to deep strike in turn one than Scanning Decoy stratagem is very useless!
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Post by: Thepatriarch
Banville wrote:tneva82 wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
Thing is strategem puts them out of battlefield after game has started. Going out of battlefield and coming out deep strike is legal as long as it's after deployment. Cases like that already exists. Only difference is this is lot more than 3x as effective
This. The strat should be 3CP but it works as intended imo.
Only if you assume factions can't be better at things then others and one faction can have something another factions has not, or can have something similar but cheaper/better because they are specialized in it.
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Post by: Banville
Solidcrash wrote:I am thinking about paint underground theme on 3 blips and hidden them... until when I use stratagem on this 3 blips I just simply put 3 blips with underground painted anywhere on battlefield soon as I remove 3 normal blips. To avoid confusion.
Or if we are not allow to deep strike in turn one than Scanning Decoy stratagem is very useless!
You don't re-place the blips. The blips stay in your deployment zone until you trigger the strat. Then they disappear and the units reappear anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from the enemy.
It's nifty but will work precisely once against your friends before they screen their valuable stuff or throw scouts out to counter the deepstrike.
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Post by: Carnikang
Solidcrash wrote:.
Or if we are not allow to deep strike in turn one than Scanning Decoy stratagem is very useless!
No it itsnt? It allows you three more blips to deploy units from, allowing more flexibility in your placement when it comes time to reveal. Depending on Fist or Second, they could allow you to deploy in the rear of your zone, or the front.
It's still great for misdirection.
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Post by: blaktoof
tneva82 wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
Thing is strategem puts them out of battlefield after game has started. Going out of battlefield and coming out deep strike is legal as long as it's after deployment. Cases like that already exists. Only difference is this is lot more than 3x as effective
Name the cases that already exist.
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Post by: Banville
Thepatriarch wrote:Banville wrote:tneva82 wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
Thing is strategem puts them out of battlefield after game has started. Going out of battlefield and coming out deep strike is legal as long as it's after deployment. Cases like that already exists. Only difference is this is lot more than 3x as effective
This. The strat should be 3CP but it works as intended imo.
Only if you assume factions can't be better at things then others and one faction can have something another factions has not, or can have something similar but cheaper/better because they are specialized in it.
I'm all for rules mirroring fluff, which is why I'm such a big fan of this codex. But even I think this strat is undercosted. I love the way it works and I think it operates as intended but it is a bit too cheap at 1CP.
That's just my opinion.
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Post by: Thepatriarch
Name the cases that already exist.
Why? The token deployment is a unique mechanism, saying anything it does cannot be because it's unique is not an argument.
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Post by: blaktoof
Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
So, as has been said ad nauseum, it's effectively Da Jump on 3 units for 1 CP.
You're mistaken in arguing that a unit can't turn up Turn 1 after being place in reserves earlier in Turn 1.
I think there used to be 'ongoing reserves' in a previous edition. There's nothing like that now.
As has been said ad nauseum it is effectively saying the unit is considered to have been in reserves instead of deployed, it's previous state no longer matters as the stratagem tells you it is now considered to be underground(reserves) instead of being in ambush(deployed).
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
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Post by: Thepatriarch
Banville wrote:Solidcrash wrote:I am thinking about paint underground theme on 3 blips and hidden them... until when I use stratagem on this 3 blips I just simply put 3 blips with underground painted anywhere on battlefield soon as I remove 3 normal blips. To avoid confusion.
Or if we are not allow to deep strike in turn one than Scanning Decoy stratagem is very useless!
You don't re-place the blips. The blips stay in your deployment zone until you trigger the strat. Then they disappear and the units reappear anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from the enemy.
It's nifty but will work precisely once against your friends before they screen their valuable stuff or throw scouts out to counter the deepstrike.
Not exactly how it works: you remove 3 ambush markers and select 3 units when you trigger the strat, they count as being set up underground (i.e. are in reserves). You can actually still wait to deepstrike them in later turns if you want. Automatically Appended Next Post: blaktoof wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
So, as has been said ad nauseum, it's effectively Da Jump on 3 units for 1 CP.
You're mistaken in arguing that a unit can't turn up Turn 1 after being place in reserves earlier in Turn 1.
I think there used to be 'ongoing reserves' in a previous edition. There's nothing like that now.
As has been said ad nauseum it is effectively saying the unit is considered to have been in reserves instead of deployed, it's previous state no longer matters as the stratagem tells you it is now considered to be underground(reserves) instead of being in ambush(deployed).
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
You're making up the have been part, It says "no longer" meaning they were on the battlefield before and after you used the strategem (during battleround 1) they are no longer set up, meaning they were set up during deployment.
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Post by: tneva82
blaktoof wrote:tneva82 wrote:blaktoof wrote:You are correct.
Being In ambush is being deployed.
Being underground is being in reserves.
Once you play they came from below, the units are considered to be underground instead of in ambush.
Once you play they came from below the units are considered to be in reserves instead of deployed.
The only way to say they are still considered to be deployed(ambush) is to ignore that line from they came from below
Nothing In the stratagem states it is redeploying, which is actually wording GW uses for all redeployment rules.
Thing is strategem puts them out of battlefield after game has started. Going out of battlefield and coming out deep strike is legal as long as it's after deployment. Cases like that already exists. Only difference is this is lot more than 3x as effective
Name the cases that already exist.
Da jump, dark crystal, descent of angel for 3. All remove unit from battlefield and come back.
Won't bother to hunt down all so you have to settle with just 3.
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Post by: Solidcrash
Carnikang wrote:Solidcrash wrote:.
Or if we are not allow to deep strike in turn one than Scanning Decoy stratagem is very useless!
No it itsnt? It allows you three more blips to deploy units from, allowing more flexibility in your placement when it comes time to reveal. Depending on Fist or Second, they could allow you to deploy in the rear of your zone, or the front.
It's still great for misdirection.
It was 4 blips that throw away.. against 3 blips that was add to number of units in reserve for Tactic Reserve Beta rule. If you was plant decoy blips but later in game you change your mind that you want use all of blips... you have to remove 4 blips instead of keep 3.
It’s would be great if you just use both... 7 decoy blips for Blood Angel hahaha!
Banville wrote:Solidcrash wrote:I am thinking about paint underground theme on 3 blips and hidden them... until when I use stratagem on this 3 blips I just simply put 3 blips with underground painted anywhere on battlefield soon as I remove 3 normal blips. To avoid confusion.
Or if we are not allow to deep strike in turn one than Scanning Decoy stratagem is very useless!
You don't re-place the blips. The blips stay in your deployment zone until you trigger the strat. Then they disappear and the units reappear anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from the enemy.
It's nifty but will work precisely once against your friends before they screen their valuable stuff or throw scouts out to counter the deepstrike.
Just tell them that underground token to remind them I have 3 Bikers or Infantry units that can pop up anywhere and not just this very spot. ( because it is not Blip token anymore!)
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Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
I don't know the Ork codex enough to tell you how many units it works on but Da Jump allows Turn 1 Deep Striking, doesn't it?
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Post by: Stux
Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
I don't know the Ork codex enough to tell you how many units it works on but Da Jump allows Turn 1 Deep Striking, doesn't it?
No. Da Jump is used on units that are already on the battlefield.
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Post by: Banville
Stux wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
I don't know the Ork codex enough to tell you how many units it works on but Da Jump allows Turn 1 Deep Striking, doesn't it?
No. Da Jump is used on units that are already on the battlefield.
But so does the strat under discussion...?
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Post by: Thepatriarch
Banville wrote: Stux wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
I don't know the Ork codex enough to tell you how many units it works on but Da Jump allows Turn 1 Deep Striking, doesn't it?
No. Da Jump is used on units that are already on the battlefield.
But so does the strat under discussion...?
The difference is they came from below works on 3 units, and puts them in reserves. Da jump is only 1 infantry units and redeploys them straight away.
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Post by: Banville
Thepatriarch wrote:Banville wrote: Stux wrote:Banville wrote:blaktoof wrote:
TBH I would actually like you to be correct as it allows my Ork army to DS my warlord +d3 units turn one if you are.
I don't know the Ork codex enough to tell you how many units it works on but Da Jump allows Turn 1 Deep Striking, doesn't it?
No. Da Jump is used on units that are already on the battlefield.
But so does the strat under discussion...?
The difference is they came from below works on 3 units, and puts them in reserves. Da jump is only 1 infantry units and redeploys them straight away.
Ah, I see what he's saying, now. Cheers.
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Post by: Stux
Though that doesn't even matter. For the Tactical Reserves rule, all that matters is where the unit was DEPLOYED.
If you originally deployed with Cult Ambush, the FAQ says you count as on the table for Tactical Reserves. So you can arrive turn 1, all the Tactical Reserves restrictions care about is where you were originally deployed.
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Post by: blaktoof
Stux wrote:Though that doesn't even matter. For the Tactical Reserves rule, all that matters is where the unit was DEPLOYED.
If you originally deployed with Cult Ambush, the FAQ says you count as on the table for Tactical Reserves. So you can arrive turn 1, all the Tactical Reserves restrictions care about is where you were originally deployed.
And once you use they came from below the faq no longer matters because instead of being setup in ambush RAW they are setup underground which is reserves. It specifically calls out set up underground, and the units are no longer set up in ambush. The units at that point cannot use the faq to say they are setup on the table turn 1.
The faq says you count as being on the table if you are in ambush, they aren't in ambush if you use that stratagem so the no longer count as being deployed. The idea that using that stratagem means they were setup on the table then put in reserves is counter to the text saying they are instead setup underground, which means they are not setup deployed to the table.
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Post by: Banville
Schrodinger's genestealers...
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote: Stux wrote:Though that doesn't even matter. For the Tactical Reserves rule, all that matters is where the unit was DEPLOYED.
If you originally deployed with Cult Ambush, the FAQ says you count as on the table for Tactical Reserves. So you can arrive turn 1, all the Tactical Reserves restrictions care about is where you were originally deployed.
And once you use they came from below the faq no longer matters because instead of being setup in ambush RAW they are setup underground which is reserves. It specifically calls out set up underground, and the units are no longer set up in ambush. The units at that point cannot use the faq to say they are setup on the table turn 1.
The faq says you count as being on the table if you are in ambush, they aren't in ambush if you use that stratagem so the no longer count as being deployed. The idea that using that stratagem means they were setup on the table then put in reserves is counter to the text saying they are instead setup underground, which means they are not setup deployed to the table.
No. Because Tactical Reserves ONLY cares about where you were DEPLOYED. Not where you are now.
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Post by: blaktoof
If the stratagem makes it so the unit was set up underground instead of being setup in ambush.
Then it was never deployed on the table....because it was setup in reserves instead of on the table once you play that strat.
What you are saying is basically if an unit advances and then a player plays a stratagem that says that unit now counts as stationary for the purposes of shooting instead of advancing, it can now fire as if it advanced instead of as if it were stationary.
The people who thinks this works are literally arguing the unit is setup on the table, then the unit is no longer setup on the table but now is setup in reserves. It can now deploy anywhere because it is setup on the table and not reserves, but is deploying from being setup in reserves instead of being setup deployed to the table.
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Post by: Banville
blaktoof wrote:If the stratagem makes it so the unit was set up underground instead of being setup in ambush.
Then it was never deployed on the table....because it was setup in reserves instead of on the table once you play that strat.
What you are saying is basically if an unit advances and then a player plays a stratagem that says that unit now counts as stationary for the purposes of shooting instead of advancing, it can now fire as if it advanced instead of as if it were stationary.
The people who thinks this works are literally arguing the unit is setup on the table, then the unit is no longer setup on the table but now is setup in reserves. It can now deploy anywhere because it is setup on the table and not reserves, but is deploying from being setup in reserves instead of being setup deployed to the table.
There are very few stratagems in the game that can actually reverse time, though.
The unit is on the table at the start of the battle. It has rules that directly affect deployment of other units etc etc. It is physically there. Automatically Appended Next Post: blaktoof wrote:If the stratagem makes it so the unit was set up underground instead of being setup in ambush.
Then it was never deployed on the table....because it was setup in reserves instead of on the table once you play that strat.
What you are saying is basically if an unit advances and then a player plays a stratagem that says that unit now counts as stationary for the purposes of shooting instead of advancing, it can now fire as if it advanced instead of as if it were stationary.
The people who thinks this works are literally arguing the unit is setup on the table, then the unit is no longer setup on the table but now is setup in reserves. It can now deploy anywhere because it is setup on the table and not reserves, but is deploying from being setup in reserves instead of being setup deployed to the table.
No we're saying it can now deploy anywhere because it WAS set up on the table. The unit isn't occupying a weird on-table/reserve limbo. It WAS on the table so it can now deep strike. Like Slamguinious etc.
122893
Post by: ▇ ▇ ▇
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes
of Tactical Reserves.’
When a unit is setup in the Ambush Blip it is on the table.Tactical Reserves rules do not apply anymore at that point anymore.
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Post by: EnTyme
blaktoof, here is the exact wording of Tactical Reserves (the relevant line has been bolded):
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
The rule only applies to units in reserve during deployment. Once the first battle round has started, deployment is over. It doesn't matter that the units the strat was used on are now in reserves. They were set up on the battlefield during deployment, so the Tactical Reserves restriction does not apply to them.
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Post by: blaktoof
Yep and the stratagem changes where they count as having been during deployment as they are now setup underground instead of setup to ambush once the stratagem is played. Hence the use of the words setup for both ambush and underground, it changes where the unit was deployed.
This wording is nothing like burrow for mawloc or skyleap for swooping Hawks which deals with units entering reserves from being setup on the table.
Much like rules that can modify if an unit moved previously or not for current rules.
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote:Yep and the stratagem changes where they count as having been during deployment as they are now setup underground instead of setup to ambush once the stratagem is played. Hence the use of the words setup for both ambush and underground, it changes where the unit was deployed.
This wording is nothing like burrow for mawloc or skyleap for swooping Hawks which deals with units entering reserves from being setup on the table.
Much like rules that can modify if an unit moved previously or not for current rules.
No, it really doesn't. It changes where they are now. Nowhere does it say it changes where they were in the past. It says 'no longer'. Not 'they count as always having been deployed underground'. You're making that bit up.
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Post by: blaktoof
"They are no longer setup in ambush and are now Setup underground"
They are no longer deployed to the table are now deployed to reserves.
So yes actually it does change where they were deployed.
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote:"They are no longer setup in ambush and are now Setup underground"
They are no longer deployed to the table are now deployed to reserves.
So yes actually it does change where they were deployed.
How is this so difficult!
No longer means from this point forward. It does NOT in any way whatsoever change the fact it was DEPLOYED on the battlefield. The stratagem doesn't even say "deployed" it says "set up". Once again you are making up rules.
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Post by: Thepatriarch
Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Yep and the stratagem changes where they count as having been during deployment as they are now setup underground instead of setup to ambush once the stratagem is played. Hence the use of the words setup for both ambush and underground, it changes where the unit was deployed.
This wording is nothing like burrow for mawloc or skyleap for swooping Hawks which deals with units entering reserves from being setup on the table.
Much like rules that can modify if an unit moved previously or not for current rules.
No, it really doesn't. It changes where they are now. Nowhere does it say it changes where they were in the past. It says 'no longer'. Not 'they count as always having been deployed underground'. You're making that bit up.
I have quoted the no longer part to him clearly indicating they were deployed before, he is either arguing in bad faith or to stupid to understand it.
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Post by: blaktoof
So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote:So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.
No. I'm saying "deployed" and "set up" are, obviously, different.
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Post by: blaktoof
Thepatriarch wrote: Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Yep and the stratagem changes where they count as having been during deployment as they are now setup underground instead of setup to ambush once the stratagem is played. Hence the use of the words setup for both ambush and underground, it changes where the unit was deployed.
This wording is nothing like burrow for mawloc or skyleap for swooping Hawks which deals with units entering reserves from being setup on the table.
Much like rules that can modify if an unit moved previously or not for current rules.
Oh I understand your point, you just don't seem to grasp mine. I am qouting the text of the rule that says the unit is no longer setup in ambush and is instead setup underground. You seem to think it carries the original state with it, while I argue if it no longer is setup there and is instead setup somewhere else when you use the stratagem, per it's actual rules text, then for rules purposes it counts as if you deployed underground not deployed in ambush.
It's not necessary to insult someone because they think your argument based on intent is incorrect.
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Post by: EnTyme
I'm starting to remember why I stopped visiting this board.
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Post by: Stux
It indisputably carries the state of where it WAS deployed, because there is nothing in the rule that changes that.
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Post by: blaktoof
Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.
No. I'm saying "deployed" and "set up" are, obviously, different.
I suggest revisiting the rules for tactical reserves and deployment and note the use of set up when used with where units can be deployed to. Automatically Appended Next Post: Stux wrote:It indisputably carries the state of where it WAS deployed, because there is nothing in the rule that changes that.
Other then where the rule tells us the unit is no longer considered to e deployed to the table and now is considered deployed to reserves of course.
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Post by: Thepatriarch
So if you are no longer under age you were never under age?
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote: Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:So your saying if an unit advances then you play a stratagem to let them shoot as if they had not moved, that they shoot as if they had advanced.
No. I'm saying "deployed" and "set up" are, obviously, different.
I suggest revisiting the rules for tactical reserves and deployment and note the use of set up when used with where units can be deployed to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote:It indisputably carries the state of where it WAS deployed, because there is nothing in the rule that changes that.
Other then where the rule tells us the unit is no longer considered to e deployed to the table and now is considered deployed to reserves of course.
Oh my goodness... Going in circles again.
It DOESNT say that. It doesn't say deployed, it says setup. That is totally different.
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Post by: blaktoof
Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased re-read tactical reserves and note how it uses setup and locations units can be put during deployment.
This stratagem is directly modifying that state during deployment when you use it from the wording no longer setup in ambush, instead setup underground.
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Post by: EnTyme
blaktoof wrote:Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.
Source?
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Post by: Banville
Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.
Unit is deployed in ambush.
Game begins.
Time to reveal Blip.
Play strat.
Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.
Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.
C'est tout.
Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote:Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.
No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.
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Post by: blaktoof
Banville wrote:Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.
Unit is deployed in ambush.
Game begins.
Time to reveal Blip.
Play strat.
Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.
Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.
C'est tout.
Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.
Once you play the strat the unit was no longer deployed to the board.
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote:Banville wrote:Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.
Unit is deployed in ambush.
Game begins.
Time to reveal Blip.
Play strat.
Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.
Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.
C'est tout.
Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.
Once you play the strat the unit was no longer deployed to the board.
Wrong, it did. It has simply changed where it is set up.
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Post by: blaktoof
Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.
No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.
Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.
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Post by: Stux
blaktoof wrote: Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.
No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.
Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.
Citation please. I believe there is no rules basis for this assertion you keep making.
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Post by: blaktoof
Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Banville wrote:Right. This is my last attempt. Here goes.
Unit is deployed in ambush.
Game begins.
Time to reveal Blip.
Play strat.
Unit is no longer an ambush blip but is now set up underground.
Because unit was originally deployed on the board, it can now Deep Strike as per the rules.
C'est tout.
Just because it is now underground, does not change the fact it was originally deployed on the table.
Once you play the strat the unit was no longer deployed to the board.
Wrong, it did. It has simply changed where it is set up.
When it changed where it was setup it was no longer deployed to the table during deployment, as where it was setup was changed from ambush to underground.
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Post by: EnTyme
Okay. I'm out. I feel like this brick wall has been yelled at enough.
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Post by: blaktoof
Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote: Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.
No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.
Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.
Citation please. I believe there is no rules basis for this assertion you keep making.
You want me to cite that ambush and underground are not transports?
I'm sorry but there is no rules basis that they are transports, which why you implying setup can mean anything other then how it is used in tactical reserves isn't really insightful.
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Post by: Stux
You repeating that doesn't make it true. There is nothing in the rules that says it works the way you are saying.
I'm about to give up on you, as I'm coming to believe you are being intentionally obstinate.
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Post by: Solidcrash
You both are right. In both point of view...
It’s very grey... not black and white.
But I was wondering what rule look like that allow unit leave a transport count as set up when it disembarks....
Because one of your point of view sound like that unit disembarked are illegal in turn one..
I was starting confusing. Need reread everything again. This one really need fix from GW... ( as if)
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Post by: Banville
I'm out, guys.
And this is possibly one of the least grey of GWs rules. The issue is one or two people can't get their head around the fact that it works as written and may actually be intentional.
I'm off to get a mug of tea, which after it has been moved from the counter to the table ceased to ever have been on the counter to begin with.
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Post by: doctortom
blaktoof wrote: Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote: Stux wrote:blaktoof wrote:Setup is directly referring to where the unit was placed during deployment, pleased red tactical reserves.
No, it isn't. Setting up a unit can happen throughout the game for various reasons. A unit that leaves a transport is set up on the battlefield at the time it disembarks, for instance. This doesn't change where it was originally deployed.
Ambush and underground are not transports and when setup is used for locations regarding deployment per tactical reserves it is talking about where the unit was deployed.
Citation please. I believe there is no rules basis for this assertion you keep making.
You want me to cite that ambush and underground are not transports?
I'm sorry but there is no rules basis that they are transports, which why you implying setup can mean anything other then how it is used in tactical reserves isn't really insightful.
How about quoting the stratagem first to see if if backs up what you are claiming?
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Post by: blaktoof
It's in the first post, you did read the first post right?
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Post by: doctortom
I was wondering if you had, since you seem to be ignoring what it says.
"The Came from Below...
Use this Strategem before you reveal an ambush marker. Select up to 3 units (excluding VEHICLES) from your army that are set up in ambush. For each unit that you select, remove one ambush marker from the battlefield. The selected units are no longer set up in ambush are are instead set up underground as described in the Cult Ambush ability"
During deployment they are set up in ambush. In turn one, they are no longer set up in one place but instead are set up in another place. They are still set up. They were set up in ambush during deployment, which the FAQ tells us counts as being deployed for purposes of tactical reserves. TCFB states they are still set up. There is nothing stating there is the past tense shenanigans you are claiming; they have been set up and still are set up, so are still set up throughout turn 1.
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Post by: blaktoof
So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.
You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.
You are basically saying that an unit that advances and has a stratagem played on it that says it no longer counts as advancing and now counts as stationary for shooting, is still counted as having advanced when shooting.
Makes no sense.
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Post by: Banville
They don't keep they're initial state. But because they had that initial state they get to turn up turn 1.
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Post by: Octopoid
blaktoof wrote:So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.
You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.
I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what is being said is that Unit A is given State A at the start of the game, is changed to State B later, but then still uses rules that trigger off it HAVING HAD State A AT ANY POINT.
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Post by: doctortom
blaktoof wrote:So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.
No, the rules are saying they are set up before and they are set up after playing the stratagem.
blaktoof wrote:You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.
No, you are saying that somehow they mystically time travel so that they were never set up. During deployment they are set up in ambush. During turn one, after deployment, they are set up somewhere else after playing the stratagem. They were still set up in ambush during deployment and according to the FAQ that means they are on the board for purposes of Tactical Reserves, which means that they can do things turn one.
blaktoof wrote:You are basically saying that an unit that advances and has a stratagem played on it that says it no longer counts as advancing and now counts as stationary for shooting, is still counted as having advanced when shooting.
Makes no sense.
Way to strawman the argument. The situations aren't similar. You still haven't bothered actually citing any proof to corroborate what you're saying, despite having been asked. Perhaps you could try to argue in good faith and provide some proof to back up your assertions.
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Post by: blaktoof
 Octopoid wrote:blaktoof wrote:So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.
You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.
I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) what is being said is that Unit A is given State A at the start of the game, is changed to State B later, but then still uses rules that trigger off it HAVING HAD State A AT ANY POINT.
Oh I get that interpretation,
And it is the same as saying an unit that advances and later in the shooting phase has a stratagem played on it that let's it shoot as if it were stationary is played, and someone then says it has to shoot as if it advanced because it had that state first and it being modified doesn't remove that.
The whole point of modifying that state removes the previous state at that point, you can't resolve the shooting attack as if the unit advanced and did not advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:blaktoof wrote:So they are setup on the table when they are setup in reserves you are saying.
No, the rules are saying they are set up before and they are set up after playing the stratagem.
blaktoof wrote:You are reading instead that they keep the initial state, I am reading instead that the initial state is no longer the state and is instead a different state.
No, you are saying that somehow they mystically time travel so that they were never set up. During deployment they are set up in ambush. During turn one, after deployment, they are set up somewhere else after playing the stratagem. They were still set up in ambush during deployment and according to the FAQ that means they are on the board for purposes of Tactical Reserves, which means that they can do things turn one.
blaktoof wrote:You are basically saying that an unit that advances and has a stratagem played on it that says it no longer counts as advancing and now counts as stationary for shooting, is still counted as having advanced when shooting.
Makes no sense.
Way to strawman the argument. The situations aren't similar. You still haven't bothered actually citing any proof to corroborate what you're saying, despite having been asked. Perhaps you could try to argue in good faith and provide some proof to back up your assertions.
Same situation, you just dislike the analogy. A strawman would be saying setup doesn't have any rules context in deployment because it exists as a word used to put things in context for embarking.
I've already cited proof for about 4 pages.
The unit is no longer setup in ambush and is instead setup underground.
Setup is the wording used for where units are placed during deployment under tactical reserves. This stratagem changes where the unit was deployed to. As such when it is used the unit was never in ambush after using it for the purpose of resolving it's rules.
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Post by: Banville
How was it 'never in ambush'? It was deployed in ambush at the start of the game. You do know that the Blip is only revealed at the start of the GSC movement/end of enemy movement phase? Whole reams of stuff can happen in that time, influenced by the Ambush Blip. An ambush Blip, which according to your logic, never existed.
There is nothing in the strat that says the unit was never in ambush. It spells out a series of cause and effects starting with the Blip that is to be revealed, because, and I want to stress this, it is deployed in ambush.
The strat says you take this Blip, physically deployed at the beginning of the game, and now, instead of it being in ambush, it is underground. It no longer holds its original state but there is a specific rule that says if it ever at any stage held that state then it is allowed certain actions.
Would you allow people to take back moves influenced by the presence of the phantom Blip? To move scouts up closer to your lines because the 'Blip that never was' was preventing their scout moves?
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Post by: blaktoof
Once you play the stratagem it no longer was setup in ambush and is instead setup underground.
That's how we know, the rules tell us.
Notice how the rule doesn't state they can be immediately deployed from underground when using they came below or held for future turns. There is no actual permission in the rule to do so.
Tactical reserves doesn't say if it ever had the state of being deployed to the table during deployment and it changed, nor anything like that.
It further doesn't say all units deployed to the table can arrive turn 1. It says units not deployed to the table turn one to arrive later as reinforcement s cannot arrive turn 1. TCFB changes their state of deployment from on table to reserves by putting them underground, underground a rule that is used for units that arrive mid game.
Theres no actual rule in tactical reserves that says units which are arriving mid game can arrive turn 1. That permission would need to be included in TCFB if it was intended.
Likely this is why the community 40000 page posted that it is used to arrive in later turns.
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Post by: insaniak
This is clearly not going anywhere, at this point, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it.
As usual, if in doubt, talk to your opponent about it before the game.
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