curious how Grey Knights are performing post chapter approved 18
ive got a small grey knight detachment that I use as an allied detachment in larger games
have considered expanding them to a full 2000 point mono-codex army (no allied) just for something different and challenging
the points reduction in CA changed my 1000 pt allied detachment to 760ish points
(I dont expect them to be top tier, just curios on peoples observations )
Grey Knights were a mediocre army that relied on two mechanics that have been taken out of the game since then. So not much left there, so I wouldn't suggest investing heavily in that army.
GW doesn't know what they want to do with GKs or what they want them to be this edition. Custodes took the title of elite Marines and primaris are better base Marines. Their demon hunting skills arnt great if that's what they wanted. Their psychic powers, which in my opinion should be their focus, are beyond meh as well. As above, points changing for what is a fundamentally broken concept won't make them useable.
GK are a purely fluff bases army, who completely suck on the table. But they also possess the dooberwhatsit device for re-upping the Big E, and thus need to be allowed to exist. For plot armor.
In smaller Games (1000/1250) they are ok and usable on a casual level. Actually a 2++ GMNDK is pretty good in a 1250pt Game.
To become viable in Full 2k oder competetive Games, they need a rewrite of the Codex unfortunately.
Im still hoping GW gives them a bandaid with April FAQ, to ease the pain until a new book. They could make Psybolt Ammo CP Cost 0, decrease all Stratagems to 1 CP cost, Give GK full Deepstrike Turn 1 or all of that.
All Easy changes you could give within a FAQ...
One thing that would help them is if GW gave them the warlock treatment. Have their powers have an buff debuff version. An example would their ability to shoot through cover. One version allows them to shoot through cover other prevents them from being shot at while in cover. This was quick example you would have to balance these powers. Second thing is give them full smite. Third give everything +1 wound and +1 attack . these are some simple quick ideas. It would retain their elite psyker army status.
They will not be getting any buffs that affect them significantly enough to bring them up to snuff. Because that would anger everyone else. So they are stuck waiting for the re-write that GW has promised in the next edition.
They are decent in small games, where psychic focus does not hurt too much and where GMNDK are almost broken. As a full 2000 point army though they don't work very well.
I do very well with my Grey Knights... but I only use a Supreme Command Detachment that is a GMDK, Voldus, and Draigo, as an ally detachment to me Knights.
Reemule wrote: I do very well with my Grey Knights... but I only use a Supreme Command Detachment that is a GMDK, Voldus, and Draigo, as an ally detachment to me Knights.
Then you aren't playing Grey Knights you're playing Imperial Knights +.
Reemule wrote: I do very well with my Grey Knights... but I only use a Supreme Command Detachment that is a GMDK, Voldus, and Draigo, as an ally detachment to me Knights.
Then you aren't playing Grey Knights you're playing Imperial Knights +.
Reemule wrote: I do very well with my Grey Knights... but I only use a Supreme Command Detachment that is a GMDK, Voldus, and Draigo, as an ally detachment to me Knights.
Then you aren't playing Grey Knights you're playing Imperial Knights +.
Yep. I play the game the correct way.
Does the imperial knight codex say somewhere that it should be played with grey knights? Serious question, I never read it, and we don't get many WD here, so it would be interesting to find an article from the design team giving some insight in to such lists.
Reemule wrote: I do very well with my Grey Knights... but I only use a Supreme Command Detachment that is a GMDK, Voldus, and Draigo, as an ally detachment to me Knights.
Then you aren't playing Grey Knights you're playing Imperial Knights +.
Yep. I play the game the correct way.
the OP was asking about mono-codex grey knights, not allies
Karol wrote: Does the imperial knight codex say somewhere that it should be played with grey knights? Serious question, I never read it, and we don't get many WD here, so it would be interesting to find an article from the design team giving some insight in to such lists.
Oddly enough the knight codex is presented as a self contained army - the foreword makes no mention of them being intended as an allied force (compared to the forewords for old allies books like sisters or wh/dh) and few pictures show them alongside allied forces.
Have you considered running the GK as a classic daemonhunters-style force?
I don't know that a classic demonhunters-style force is. Is that some special detachment? We get only 2 WD around here, so it is really easy to miss stuff. Plus I am not playing since 8th ed day one. So anything older then 1 year and 4 months, I have missed.
Karol wrote: I don't know that a classic demonhunters-style force is. Is that some special detachment? We get only 2 WD around here, so it is really easy to miss stuff. Plus I am not playing since 8th ed day one. So anything older then 1 year and 4 months, I have missed.
Daemonhunters was the Grey Knights codex from 3rd edition through until late 5th.
It could be played 'pure' as a largely infantry force (they had no transports except landraiders) but the codex also contained inquisitors and stormtroopers - the closest thing to the latter these days being scions. It wasn't uncommon for a GK force to contain only a handful of GK units, or even just a single character and retinue supporting the inquisitional forces.
Karol wrote: I don't know that a classic demonhunters-style force is. Is that some special detachment? We get only 2 WD around here, so it is really easy to miss stuff. Plus I am not playing since 8th ed day one. So anything older then 1 year and 4 months, I have missed.
The whole ordo xenos used to be what Codex: GK was, basically. So they had inquisitors, "henchmen" squds (which no longer exist, but were basically a combination of the current Acolytes, Priest, Astropath, Wyrdvane Psyker, Techpriest, Crusader, and Death Cult assassin units...and yes, they were as crazy as that sounds), grey knights and a few other toys like chimeras and stuff.
Most common cheesy crap I remember was taking squads of IG psykers and stuffing them in a chimera, they had a power they could cast where it was a large blast that was strength = the number of guys in the squad. You'd take 10 of them, stick them in a chimera, and since the attack was coming from "one guy" you could shoot it out of the single fire point from the chimera, so you'd have like 8 chimeras gaking out tank and marine murdering giant blast templates.
Lord Clinto wrote: Looks like most people, myself included, have shelved them until they get new / updated rules.
Points changes can only go so far when it's a turd you're polishing...
Thats not true points can fix any unit I think strikes would be good at 16 points with the current rules. Some people just have in their minds you can't lower a unit that much for some reason.
Reemule wrote: I do very well with my Grey Knights... but I only use a Supreme Command Detachment that is a GMDK, Voldus, and Draigo, as an ally detachment to me Knights.
Then you aren't playing Grey Knights you're playing Imperial Knights +.
Yep. I play the game the correct way.
The only correct way to play the game is the one where all players in a specific game are enjoying themselves. It doesn't need to be boiled down any further than that.
In the mean time, your proctologist is waiting for you, Reemule.
Karol wrote: I don't know that a classic demonhunters-style force is. Is that some special detachment? We get only 2 WD around here, so it is really easy to miss stuff. Plus I am not playing since 8th ed day one. So anything older then 1 year and 4 months, I have missed.
The whole ordo xenos used to be what Codex: GK was, basically. So they had inquisitors, "henchmen" squds (which no longer exist, but were basically a combination of the current Acolytes, Priest, Astropath, Wyrdvane Psyker, Techpriest, Crusader, and Death Cult assassin units...and yes, they were as crazy as that sounds), grey knights and a few other toys like chimeras and stuff.
Right general idea, wrong ordo - Xenos would be associated with the Deathwatch (and we never did get Alienhunters...), while Malleus is the hammer that smites the Daemon.
The only correct way to play the game is the one where all players in a specific game are enjoying themselves. It doesn't need to be boiled down any further than that.
In the mean time, your proctologist is waiting for you, Reemule.
Karol wrote: I don't know that a classic demonhunters-style force is. Is that some special detachment? We get only 2 WD around here, so it is really easy to miss stuff. Plus I am not playing since 8th ed day one. So anything older then 1 year and 4 months, I have missed.
I attached table of contents of the codex that was released alongside all the models you probably own today.
Imagine your army also having those inquisitors, assassins and a DIY infantry unit that could be anything from cheap bubblewrap to close combat experts to durable objective holders.
I have no clue why they eliminated half the army from their current iteration, but a lot of problems came from taking away the Ordo Malleus and assassins from them.
Jidmah wrote: I attached table of contents of the codex that was released alongside all the models you probably own today.
That's the 5e index - the codex that essentially killed the inquisition and turned the rest of the grey knights into codex:grey marines, complete with rhinos, tactical marine statlines, and a setup geared towards fighting other marine armies.
Not that the henchmen weren't still useful in-game on account of being cheap, but they had been stuffed into a single unit and they still haven't recovered from it. The core central unit of the inquisition army - stormtroopers - were also removed entirely.
I've said it before but it's a pity that's where GW went with them. The 3e daemonhunters were a more elite, more defensively capable army which didn't stack their most expensive wargear on their least capable models, and which probably would have been the beneficiary of the scions update.
Well, the contributions here are mostly too blunt and simplifying.
Recently, I played three games with GK, 2000 pts, in a row.
The army is not as bad as it seems in theory if you consider the new bolter rule.
My opponents were surprised how good they behaved at the battle field!
My tactics was to deploy 3+5 Interceptors, 5 Paladins, 3 Dreads, 2 Techmarines on the board.
One Dread had astral aim and the other two were in the position to be repaired by the close Techmarines.
The Interceptors and Paladins were also out of sight in turn one.
In turn two, 2 GMNK and 3x5 Strikes appeared on the board.
At the same time, the interceptors teleported and the Paladins made use of GoI.
This gives you a force to recon with.
Its 140 shots S4 from the stormbolters, 2x12 shots from the heavy psilencers, 2xD6 automatic hits from the heavy incinerators, and the shots from the 3 Dreads whatever armament you have chosen.
In my book, this amount to almost 200 shots!
And you have the tactical flexibility to position your units where you need them.
Annihilate the enemy infantry? Throw all units on one flank to roll it up?
Voldus, a Brother Captain, 3 squads of Terminators, a Company Commander, a Primaris Psyker, 3 squads of Stormtroopers, a Stormraven and a couple Basilisks. No Inquisitors, sometimes I swap out the Basilisks for Leman Russes, sometimes I swap out the Stormraven for a Crusader.
My regular army is Black Legion, the GKs excel in some areas they don't. The Stormraven is good against DE flyers, for example, Voldus and Terminators can put some wounds on a Knight.
I attached table of contents of the codex that was released alongside all the models you probably own today.
Imagine your army also having those inquisitors, assassins and a DIY infantry unit that could be anything from cheap bubblewrap to close combat experts to durable objective holders.
I have no clue why they eliminated half the army from their current iteration, but a lot of problems came from taking away the Ordo Malleus and assassins from them.
I think I saw that codex, seems like it had multiple armies inside. Wouldn't expect assasins to be GK units. Does seem to have a lot different unit options.
Jidmah wrote: I attached table of contents of the codex that was released alongside all the models you probably own today.
That's the 5e index - the codex that essentially killed the inquisition and turned the rest of the grey knights into codex:grey marines, complete with rhinos, tactical marine statlines, and a setup geared towards fighting other marine armies.
Not that the henchmen weren't still useful in-game on account of being cheap, but they had been stuffed into a single unit and they still haven't recovered from it. The core central unit of the inquisition army - stormtroopers - were also removed entirely.
I've said it before but it's a pity that's where GW went with them. The 3e daemonhunters were a more elite, more defensively capable army which didn't stack their most expensive wargear on their least capable models, and which probably would have been the beneficiary of the scions update.
Seeing as the original Daemonhunters codex had Rhinos and Strike squads always having that statline, I'm not sure what you're babbling about.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Seeing as the original Daemonhunters codex had Rhinos and Strike squads always having that statline, I'm not sure what you're babbling about.
Grey Knights could not ride in rhinos.
Power armoured infantry had WS5 (back when it was rare) and true grit, among other rules.
Grey Knights suffer from the simple problem of being more expensive space marines that die like ordinary space marines.
Which is a problem when even basic space marines are not good enough atm.
No amount of tinkering with powers or stratagems will change this crippling core fact.
The Daemonhunter codex was strong at the time but it to suffered from this issue. The strongest 5th edition GK armies abused Psybolt ammo on Dreadnoughts/Razorbacks and barely used actual Greyknights.
If we got Psybolts back we might at least have a fighting chance if it also came with more point discounts and a rule that let us ignore psychic focus.
There is so much that is wrong with the army that it will take more than one thing to fix us.
They should have psybolt ammo like the deathwatch have special issue ammo. However that would be the only choice, maybe reduce the range of weapons using it by 6" so it isn't a complete auto use in all game situations.
Increase all infantry, terminators and paladins wounds by 1, not characters though.
Maybe some psychic powers could be tweaked or improved, sanctuary would be good if it halved all damage of weapons in addition to the invulnerable save improving.
If the above happened, their smite can stay as it is.
The psychic powers themselves are ok'ish. We just need to be able to put them out several times a turn. We need to be able to give Sanctuary to both a Terminator/Paladin Deathstar and a DKGM, and anybody else too.
Wouldn't hurt if our DTW rolls were better too. Give us Hexagrammic Wards back, and make them like the old Psychic hoods.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They should have psybolt ammo like the deathwatch have special issue ammo. However that would be the only choice, maybe reduce the range of weapons using it by 6" so it isn't a complete auto use in all game situations.
Increase all infantry, terminators and paladins wounds by 1, not characters though.
Maybe some psychic powers could be tweaked or improved, sanctuary would be good if it halved all damage of weapons in addition to the invulnerable save improving.
If the above happened, their smite can stay as it is.
+1 wound.
Tell me how viable all those Primaris seem to be with their extra wound.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They should have psybolt ammo like the deathwatch have special issue ammo. However that would be the only choice, maybe reduce the range of weapons using it by 6" so it isn't a complete auto use in all game situations.
Increase all infantry, terminators and paladins wounds by 1, not characters though.
Maybe some psychic powers could be tweaked or improved, sanctuary would be good if it halved all damage of weapons in addition to the invulnerable save improving.
If the above happened, their smite can stay as it is.
+1 wound.
Tell me how viable all those Primaris seem to be with their extra wound.
Yeah, multi damage weapons are still going to be a problem, but then in melee against chaff they are double durability for strike squads, and the same against boaters.
Terminators would become 3W in this as well, meaning 2 damage weapons and on average, D3 damage weapons don't take them out with a failed save.
Survivability is a huge issue for all marines, what would you suggest, +2 wounds? Feel no pain?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Seeing as the original Daemonhunters codex had Rhinos and Strike squads always having that statline, I'm not sure what you're babbling about.
Grey Knights could not ride in rhinos.
Power armoured infantry had WS5 (back when it was rare) and true grit, among other rules.
They and Chimeras were entries. I was being cheeky. I used to play them in 4th many moons ago.
I don't remember the WS5 off the top of my head though.
Maybe every unit can choose every turn, activate psybolt ammo or defensive psi shield for +1 on all saves. This way you would have some real choices to make
The only realistic thing I can think of is a reduction in CP costs. Changes to statlines seem like a substantial change, and GW has stated that they think 8th is in a good place and that they won't be making any big changes.
GW really needs to reconsider how they generate CPs overall. Mono-GK builds can get maybe 4-6 CPs at most, but its almost as if we were balanced around having buckets of them.
Well, my impression from the read here is that the discussion is rather abstract, made at the drawing board.
My impression after 3 games is that the army is not as bad as it seems with the new bolter rule.
I managed to get some mileage out of it with almost 200 shots in round two when everything goes will in round one (cover as much as possible).
wuestenfux wrote: Well, my impression from the read here is that the discussion is rather abstract, made at the drawing board.
My impression after 3 games is that the army is not as bad as it seems with the new bolter rule.
I managed to get some mileage out of it with almost 200 shots in round two when everything goes will in round one (cover as much as possible).
The bolter rule does not help that much because deep striking counts as moving. Also, any unit that is not a strike squad is either a worse version of normal marines, or a unit available to normal marines who get actual chapter tactics.
Uuuuunless you are playing grandmaster dreadnoodles, draigo or voldus.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, my impression from the read here is that the discussion is rather abstract, made at the drawing board.
My impression after 3 games is that the army is not as bad as it seems with the new bolter rule.
I managed to get some mileage out of it with almost 200 shots in round two when everything goes will in round one (cover as much as possible).
can the list be run with termintors instead of strikes or is the lost of 100shots too much to keep the army valid?
Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot. If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.
wuestenfux wrote: Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot. If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.
Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.
wuestenfux wrote: Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot. If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.
Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.
wuestenfux wrote: Jaxler and Karol:
The new bolter rule helps a lot. If the unit has stormbolters and deep strikes within 12'', the stormbolters will come to full effect.
Wrong. DS into play puts you OUTSIDE 12", not AT 12". So by definition you are outside of RF range of SBs.
what?
and also what?
Deep striking with storm bolters works...exactly the same way as it did before beta bolters for non-terminator models...
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the state of GKs:
My one GK playing friend is still using his GK as deathwatch until they fix some of the core structural issues with the codex that make GK not play the way he'd want them to. Namely:
1) Their statline is worse than other "elite" astartes
2) One weapon (falchions) always in every circumstance deals more damage than the other three weapon options it competes with, thus making one of the biggest wargear choices in the 'dex a non-choice.
3) An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.
4) GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.
5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.
So even if you are playing GK at the best they can possibly be, they are still unsatisfying to play since so many choices have basically been made for you: Which loadout to take, which units to take, which powers to use, which stratagems to use, which warlord trait to take is basically a given. So, since another codex exists that gives more meaningful choices (and allows him to use his Terminators in a way where they're actually good) he'll stick with those rules.
Indeed, deep strike is more than 9'' away. So storm bolters can come to full effect!
An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.
Smite is working pretty well, it can be cast on 4+ and it causes 1 damage without the penalty other armies suffer when using smite several times.
GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.
GMNK can be boosted to have a 3+ or even 2+ inv save. And these guys can be a pain.
5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.
Storm bolters all the way. Heavy weapons are better to be mounted on Dreads.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, deep strike is more than 9'' away. So storm bolters can come to full effect!
An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.
Smite is working pretty well, it can be cast on 4+ and it causes 1 damage without the penalty other armies suffer when using smite several times.
GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.
GMNK can be boosted to have a 3+ or even 2+ inv save. And these guys can be a pain.
5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.
Storm bolters all the way. Heavy weapons are better to be mounted on Dreads.
1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.
2 the grand master is not bad. I would enjoy if he was not the best unit in the army in the sense that he is the only good non character in the army. Literally outside HQ, the army has no good units.
3. Yes, dreads are good. They are even better in an army with a chapter tactic. Dreads being good has nothing to do with the problem. In fact you agree with us that grey knights should never not be armed with a bolter and double swords, so agree that this is a problem. Or at least I think you do, you did not offer a solution.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, deep strike is more than 9'' away. So storm bolters can come to full effect!
An army that ends up with an average of 15-20 possible casts at 2k points has 6 psychic powers to choose from, total. This is just silly when other Psyker heavy armies have 2-3 psychic tables they can use.
Smite is working pretty well, it can be cast on 4+ and it causes 1 damage without the penalty other armies suffer when using smite several times.
GK heroes are worse at psychic combat than other comparable psykers. GK librarians are the worst space marine librarians when it comes to causing damage with their psychic powers.
GMNK can be boosted to have a 3+ or even 2+ inv save. And these guys can be a pain.
5) None of the special ranged weapons fills a meaningful role in the army for the points making the other weapon choice also meaningless - upgrade nobody, keep everyone on storm bolters.
Storm bolters all the way. Heavy weapons are better to be mounted on Dreads.
I understand that Gk can be built in such a way that they are quasi-functional. but compared to the codex version of, say, thousand sons or eldar, Gk give you an ABYSMALLY boring version of the "army of psykers" gameplay fantasy. Each squad just plops out an extra mortal wound in addition to resolving their SB attacks. Great, you've moved one step of their damage resolution to a different phase, that's... certainly going to take longer to roll through?
They just need a redesign at this point. they're locked into a mono-build at this point and in pretty much any edition that's a sign of an unsatisfying army.
In order to build hype for the sisters drop, they'll release Inquisition, probably as a Blackstone or a Kill Team release. There will be data sheets for Ordo Malleus Inquisitors- not all HQ either, some will be elite.
These characters will buff the Grey Knight units that are meant to defend them. They will also, of course, give the army access to an Inquisitorial psychic power table- albeit, this won't likely be available to existing GK units, but it will be variety for the army.
The best part is that being Ordo Malleus, they'll look and feel so much like Grey Knights, from aesthetics to fluff, that it won't even feel like soup. In fact, the rule for integrating Inq into the armies of their respective chambers militant will likely be more similar to the Ecclesiarchy's integration into a sisters army.
1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.
Well, I noticed that dishing out 1 extra wound per unit can be quite a lot if you have about 10 units.
My Eldar can do generally much less damage with smite.
Moreover, a series of smite has some psychological effect on your opponent. Do not underestimate this.
What other psychic casts are useful? Astral aim, say for a Dread, if necessary, and Sanctuary for a GMNK.
I preferred to stay out of cc with my Strikes and Interceptors. Here Hammerhand would come in.
1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.
Well, I noticed that dishing out 1 extra wound per unit can be quite a lot if you have about 10 units.
My Eldar can do generally much less damage with smite.
Moreover, a series of smite has some psychological effect on your opponent. Do not underestimate this.
What other psychic casts are useful? Astral aim, say for a Dread, if necessary, and Sanctuary for a GMNK.
I preferred to stay out of cc with my Strikes and Interceptors. Here Hammerhand would come in.
Assuming your army is only minimum strike squads, you could not run 20 units in 2000 point games.
You also will not have all of those units within 1 foot.
Also, you need to cast all of those without perils of the warping, which happens 1/18 times, which with that many casts will most likely happen and cost you wounds too.
Also congratulations, sanctuary made you NDGM good. You also made 1 dreadnought sorta better. Problem is you still have another 1600 points of stuff which is paying for spells that either suck or cannot be used. Astral aim is good, gate is good, sanctuary is good, the rest are bad.
thanks for the input all
been reading thru all this and found many interesting points
currently ive only been useing a small Greyknight detachment as an allied support to my ultramarines in games over 2000 points
-Brother Captain with hammer
-Voldus
-Apothecary
-Paladin Ancient
- 10x Paladins (1 squad of 10, or 2 squads of 5 depending on my mood)
one observation I have had, I get the feeling that Greyknights are not so much about psychic offensive but more about psychic defensive, ive totally shut down enemy psychic phase with all the deny the witch I have access to, and they all get +1 to deny the witch due to brotherhood of psykers.
I do have some useful psyker powers, but I found its more about denying the enemy the ability to use theirs
I am slowly expanding my GKs to a full 2000+ point list and appreciate all the input you all have given
Well, psychic offensive is not so bad if you have several small units casting ''smite''.
In opposition to other armies, smite is cast constantly on +4.
Maybe GW could split GK psychic powers in to minor ones. Like smite or hammerhand, that could be cast multiple times per turn. And the realy powerful ones that would follow the rule of one.
Karol wrote: Maybe GW could split GK psychic powers in to minor ones. Like smite or hammerhand, that could be cast multiple times per turn. And the realy powerful ones that would follow the rule of one.
I think it'd be cool to see them get something similar to Thousand Sons, where you have a list dedicated to the Character psykers and a list dedicated to the units.
You could have maybe two powers dedicated to psyker vehicles and 4 powers that scale up in power with the size of the squad casting the power from 1-10.
Something like "Psionic Onslaught, WC5. Pick a visible enemy unit within 18", that unit suffers 1 mortal wound. When attempting to manifest this power, divide the number of models in the unit casting the power by 3, rounding down. Increase the warp charge value and number of mortal wounds dealt by this power by that number."
That is in deed a very cool idea. And would even require a lot of rewriting or changing of point costs or unit rules. Just the psychic powers could be update, and GW could sell them as a whole new deck.
So hive mind ideas do work out, who would have thought.
Recently did well against a strong GSC list, would have tabled if we'd played turn 6.
My advice to GW for fixing GK so more list styles are playable would be(I've had several iterations of this concept)
Have a 2nd psychic table which is not affected by psychic focus.
Hammerhand
Psybolt ammo
Sanctuary
Add the following into the main psychic table.
The Shrouding
12 inch range, target unit, 12 inch bubble -1 to hit outside of 18 inches, warp charge 7
The Ageis
12 inch range, target unit, 5+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, warp charge 6
Passive skill:
True Grit, All Grey Knights can fire storm bolters as pistols in close combat.
There you go, fixed Grey Knights
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gunrunner1775 wrote: thanks for the input all
been reading thru all this and found many interesting points
currently ive only been useing a small Greyknight detachment as an allied support to my ultramarines in games over 2000 points
-Brother Captain with hammer
-Voldus
-Apothecary
-Paladin Ancient
- 10x Paladins (1 squad of 10, or 2 squads of 5 depending on my mood)
one observation I have had, I get the feeling that Greyknights are not so much about psychic offensive but more about psychic defensive, ive totally shut down enemy psychic phase with all the deny the witch I have access to, and they all get +1 to deny the witch due to brotherhood of psykers.
I do have some useful psyker powers, but I found its more about denying the enemy the ability to use theirs
I am slowly expanding my GKs to a full 2000+ point list and appreciate all the input you all have given
If you take a cullexus assassin too, it becomes a completely miserable game for any army that uses psychic powers as a lynch pin, -2 to cast on top of +1 to deny is disgusting.
1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.
Well, I noticed that dishing out 1 extra wound per unit can be quite a lot if you have about 10 units.
My Eldar can do generally much less damage with smite.
Moreover, a series of smite has some psychological effect on your opponent. Do not underestimate this.
What other psychic casts are useful? Astral aim, say for a Dread, if necessary, and Sanctuary for a GMNK.
I preferred to stay out of cc with my Strikes and Interceptors. Here Hammerhand would come in.
Assuming your army is only minimum strike squads, you could not run 20 units in 2000 point games.
You also will not have all of those units within 1 foot.
Also, you need to cast all of those without perils of the warping, which happens 1/18 times, which with that many casts will most likely happen and cost you wounds too.
Also congratulations, sanctuary made you NDGM good. You also made 1 dreadnought sorta better. Problem is you still have another 1600 points of stuff which is paying for spells that either suck or cannot be used. Astral aim is good, gate is good, sanctuary is good, the rest are bad.
Hammerhand is also good, especially used on larger squads of paladins with halberds.
Cheap scoring/objective sitters, theres nothing in the GK dex which can score for 49pts
Can deepstrike if required, so can reach back field objectives, you can gate a small squad of paladins or a character to support them or push an enemy objective sitter(rippers/scarabs/min units etc.) off, or wipe them with an astral aim dreadnought and then used orders to put them on the objective with move move move.
They can be used to screen your paladins against deep strikers, you can deep strike them into the best spots to achieve this when suitable. You can even move them into optimal screening positions after deep striking during the shooting phase with orders.
Generates an extra 5 CP for the GK paladin blob.
I'm not using them like you think I am, or I would be using 8 plasma gunners.
Cheap scoring/objective sitters, theres nothing in the GK dex which can score for 49pts
Can deepstrike if required, so can reach back field objectives, you can gate a small squad of paladins or a character to support them or push an enemy objective sitter(rippers/scarabs/min units etc.) off, or wipe them with an astral aim dreadnought and then used orders to put them on the objective with move move move.
They can be used to screen your paladins against deep strikers, you can deep strike them into the best spots to achieve this when suitable. You can even move them into optimal screening positions after deep striking during the shooting phase with orders.
Generates an extra 5 CP for the GK paladin blob.
I'm not using them like you think I am, or I would be using 8 plasma gunners.
Scions give you more tactical flexibility.
But my list has an overwhelming beta strike in round 2 and the enemy can do nothing against it.
Scions could help here but one has to keep in mind that only half (pointwise) of the army can deep strike.
What if they just spread chaff in front in a checkers patern. Last night a guy spread his IG army like that and I couldn't get in to 12" range on any of his tanks or castellan. Plus he was siting with some of the models on objectives. So when turn 2 came, he was already beating me on VP and first blood.
Karol wrote: What if they just spread chaff in front in a checkers patern. Last night a guy spread his IG army like that and I couldn't get in to 12" range on any of his tanks or castellan. Plus he was siting with some of the models on objectives. So when turn 2 came, he was already beating me on VP and first blood.
Grey Knights are simply not going to win against guard with a castellan.
Since its basically the stongest list, while being super forgiving to play, its no suprise that the overall weakest codex is going to get stomped by this combo.
Your only hope is probably to have your own knight, a House Krast Crusader with The Headsman's Mark is the points & CP efficient way to counter a Castellan.
By the time you've got your guard CP batallion, obligatory Emperor's Wrath Artillery formation you're basically mirror matching, but with a GK detachment rather than some of the more common choices.
his list wasn't very optimised though. Sure it was IG and castellan, but he didn't have any tanks other then the castellan and his only heavy weapons were mortars, he run bullgryns, with slabs, but he didn't have the priests etc stuff. He told it was a casual list, he is still building up.
Plus I had the same problem with other lists too. The chaos soup player does the checker formation too, when he plays against me. Same with the orc player. Although in his case I suspect him just being an a hole, we have 1 hour to play at the shop and his turns sometimes take 40min. That is if he doesn't go out to smoke.
Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.
Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.
Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.
Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.
Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.
Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.
god, thats infuriating if true. i'd be outraged if someone willingly broke my minis, i'd be seeking compensation for all the money and time spent painting them.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.
Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.
Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.
Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.
Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.
It was at a tournament, and it was just one guy, and his opponent wasn't from our town. People don't go around here destroying each others money. Plus they didn't like each other in the first place and there was prize money involved. 400$ in cash makes people think a bit different about things they can or can not do.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.
Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.
Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.
It was at a tournament, and it was just one guy, and his opponent wasn't from our town. People don't go around here destroying each others money. Plus they didn't like each other in the first place and there was prize money involved. 400$ in cash makes people think a bit different about things they can or can not do.
Doesn't matter if it was one guy or ten. Breaking someone else's stuff because you want to is just bad behaviour - criminal even. There is no way to excuse that behaviour.
Hearing this just tells me you are playing the single-worst meta/environment I've ever heard of. I am just surprised people play 40k at all considering the atmosphere.
well technically he broke the models himself. Our guy was just smart to put his case on the table just as he put puting his off, so this way the models got catapulted when the tabled shifted.
It is hard to prove anything, but considering that the guy from the other city broke the knee of our guys brother, when they were visiting for a interschool football match, it was collectivlly considered that he knew what he was doing.
To me that is rather normal. Cracov for example is divided in to two areas controled by two fighting hooligan groups. There were people losing hands for being from the wrong district. I know that people that came from other cities always have to be on guard when they get asked which team they support, because if they name the wrong one they can get beaten up. And cracov hooligans are one of the few hooligan groups that didn't sign the "no tools" treaty. That is why it is called the city of knifes. Near me, there is bialystok where nationalists make marchs, and attack anyone who they dont think looks polish. They even set fire to a few homes of people that aren't polish. And by polish they mean a very specific person. I for example wouldn't count, because am not catholic.
Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Real life seems like to show some relatedness to 40k.
Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Liverpool is not like that. It's literally the friendliest city in the UK. Unless you get involved with crime your fine. Even in the rough areas. Also gun violence is extremely rare in the UK. Our society is very safe, you are incredibly misinformed.
Source : Grew up on the docks in Liverpool. All my family still live there.
Source : Grew up on the docks in Liverpool. All my family still live there.
Still alive and kickin'. That's good.
After all, Klopp is also still alive.
Yep. Noticed your German flag, if you've never been to Liverpool I'd say the closest German city in feel is Hamburg. At least of those I've spent time in.
Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Either your family likes to exaggerate or they're literally just making stuff up. This is on par with Trump saying the police were scared to go out on the streets in Manchester (or was it Birmingham?). You also seem, shall we say, a little too eager to believe some of these things that are clearly not true. Every large city in the UK has some level of gang violence, yes, but outside of a few very specific places it's not something the average person encounters. Liverpool is absolutely not even remotely as you describe it. I'm not saying it doesn't have some rough areas but it's not some urban warzone where people are afraid to step out of the house. If you genuinely believe the things you're talking about in your local area are normal (and they actually happened in the first place) then all I can say is your local environment is quite literally the worst place to play I think I've ever heard of. That sucks, but there's nothing anyone around here can do to help you with that, or even relate to it.
As far as GK and optimised opponents go, any IG list with a Castellan is already optimised enough to crush a mono-GK army. Literally just having a Castellan and a bunch of CP-generating Guard is enough to make that game a foregone conclusion before you even start looking at the specifics of army composition. That's a failure from GW's end for sure, but bringing up examples like that isn't too helpful to the discussion at hand. Similarly, talking about how opponents will deliberately slow-play in order to win because the store is closing isn't helpful because it's such a unique problem (and isn't a problem of army design anyway). I wonder what sort of person cares so much about winning an ultimately pointless game of toy soldiers they would do something like that? There are lots of ways GK could be improved, ranging from incremental improvements all the way up to the much-needed complete overhaul but filtering everything through the lens of one singular experience isn't helpful to the discussion.
Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Uh, no, it is 100% not that bad in new york. At least, not on the island - the only criminals that can afford that kind of rent are the billionaire hedge fund manager kind, not the shoot people in an alleyway kind.
Karol wrote: It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Literally everyone hates Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. The best way to get shanked or shot in the UK is to speak a few loud words in an Eastern European language on the street. Being a Hungarian is okay-ish because everyone thinks we are aliens and can't connect us to Eastern Europe, but being a Slav is a nightmare because you get constantly mistaken for a Russian and the Ruskies are, like, double-hated or something. Not even the God-Emperor can protect you if you are an actual Russian. Sad but true in my experience.
You have to follow the rules. If a thread isn't about grey knights, it must become about grey knights. If a thread is about grey knights, it must become about oblique references to weird fringe political beliefs that only make sense in a very specific region of the world.
Does anyone else notice how strangely Uzbeks are treated in Botswana? I mean, since the eco-terrorists started their takeover of the political sphere, there's just so many Kyrgyz immigrants, I think the Botswanans are mistaking the Uzbeks for them!
Karol wrote: It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Literally everyone hates Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. The best way to get shanked or shot in the UK is to speak a few loud words in an Eastern European language on the street. Being a Hungarian is okay-ish because everyone thinks we are aliens and can't connect us to Eastern Europe, but being a Slav is a nightmare because you get constantly mistaken for a Russian and the Ruskies are, like, double-hated or something. Not even the God-Emperor can protect you if you are an actual Russian. Sad but true in my experience.
You literally don't know what literally means do you? My fiancé is Russian, she's lived in the UK for 10 years, in 3 major cities in 3 different parts of the country. She has experienced nothing like the discrimination you're talking about here. The worst she's had is being asked to "speak English" while talking to her friend on the Tube in London. Not very pleasant, but nobody pulled a gun on her. Gun violence in general in the UK is extremely low and almost exclusively limited to gang violence in the inner cities. If you've experienced racism at the level you're talking about here you have my sympathies, but I don't think it's representative of the UK as a whole, certainly not at an ingrained, nationwide level as you're implying here. See, it's comments like yours that make things sound way, way worse than they actually are, and then get blown out of proportion and taken as "proof" of how things are.
Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.
Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.
GK character cadres are ace as support detachments in a psyker/demon (engine) heavy meta right now. My LGS has a large amount of TS and DG forces that go all-in on psychic phase shenanigans with demon engine support. I've taken to running a 4-5 body team of HQs + Banner that locks down the important powers then just melts the crap out of anything packing the Demon keyword.
Crowe in support of T5 DW biker combat squads hard counters Tzangor bombs like nobody's business. Add in the banner boyo for a 2d6MW per turn shotgun, and a stormshield/stave Libby for the always tasty 2++ melee counter to DP charges and you're off to the races.
I know its a soupy use of them, but they've been absolutely clutch for me.
Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.
GK character cadres are ace as support detachments in a psyker/demon (engine) heavy meta right now. My LGS has a large amount of TS and DG forces that go all-in on psychic phase shenanigans with demon engine support. I've taken to running a 4-5 body team of HQs + Banner that locks down the important powers then just melts the crap out of anything packing the Demon keyword.
Crowe in support of T5 DW biker combat squads hard counters Tzangor bombs like nobody's business. Add in the banner boyo for a 2d6MW per turn shotgun, and a stormshield/stave Libby for the always tasty 2++ melee counter to DP charges and you're off to the races.
I guess the question becomes are there enough of those types of armies in the meta to justify spending those points on GK characters rather than jetbike Shield Captains or a pair of BA Smash Captains with Mephiston? It's probably too early to tell if that's the way the meta will shift but I suspect the more generically useful SCD of Custodes or BA might still prove to be better overall. Still, it's a possible niche GK could fill.
I guess the question becomes are there enough of those types of armies in the meta to justify spending those points on GK characters rather than jetbike Shield Captains or a pair of BA Smash Captains with Mephiston? It's probably too early to tell if that's the way the meta will shift but I suspect the more generically useful SCD of Custodes or BA might still prove to be better overall. Still, it's a possible niche GK could fill.
I can't speak for more "traditional" metas, but right now psychic artillery with a melee rush is the name of the game for probably a good third to a half of the players in the league I'm currently in. We're also using some of the CA2018 custom character rules, so there's more than one caster rocking bonuses to their psyker checks. As a result, the innate +1 to deny (+2 for the Libby) is exquisitely useful. Being able to turn off Warptime, Death Hex, Mental Onslaught and other keystone powers cannot be underestimated.
Combine the above with a serious melee counter-punch and they're an underrated ally IMO. Especially in circumstances where you know the enemy is going to be trying to overrun your position. I largely play Deathwatch, so Slammy or the Jetbike buddies are things I generally don't need, while simultaneously staying away from being too bleeding edge competitive. Not to say that DW does their role better, but that we have similar enough tools. I soup enough as it is, so avoiding the "cookie cutter" bits isn't the worst thing in the world.
Karol wrote: It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.
Literally everyone hates Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. The best way to get shanked or shot in the UK is to speak a few loud words in an Eastern European language on the street. Being a Hungarian is okay-ish because everyone thinks we are aliens and can't connect us to Eastern Europe, but being a Slav is a nightmare because you get constantly mistaken for a Russian and the Ruskies are, like, double-hated or something. Not even the God-Emperor can protect you if you are an actual Russian. Sad but true in my experience.
You literally don't know what literally means do you?
Ah. I guess sarcasm doesn't go through the internet very well. Sorry .
Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.
GK character cadres are ace as support detachments in a psyker/demon (engine) heavy meta right now. My LGS has a large amount of TS and DG forces that go all-in on psychic phase shenanigans with demon engine support. I've taken to running a 4-5 body team of HQs + Banner that locks down the important powers then just melts the crap out of anything packing the Demon keyword.
Crowe in support of T5 DW biker combat squads hard counters Tzangor bombs like nobody's business. Add in the banner boyo for a 2d6MW per turn shotgun, and a stormshield/stave Libby for the always tasty 2++ melee counter to DP charges and you're off to the races.
I guess the question becomes are there enough of those types of armies in the meta to justify spending those points on GK characters rather than jetbike Shield Captains or a pair of BA Smash Captains with Mephiston? It's probably too early to tell if that's the way the meta will shift but I suspect the more generically useful SCD of Custodes or BA might still prove to be better overall. Still, it's a possible niche GK could fill.
It is important to remember that there is no global meta.
Are GKs as allies good if you know you're facing a DEMON heavy army? You don't need to be monobuild GK to get Rites of Banishment. In this way, GK can be seen as very useful, maybe even enough to be left alone in a rules update.
_SeeD_ wrote: Are GKs as allies good if you know you're facing a DEMON heavy army? You don't need to be monobuild GK to get Rites of Banishment. In this way, GK can be seen as very useful, maybe even enough to be left alone in a rules update.
GK are expensive enough that I'm not even sure they're that good against Daemons compared to other options. For example, a GK Strike Marine is the same cost as a Deathwatch Veteran with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. I'm not convinced the GK is better at killing regular Daemons than the Veteran is, and the Veteran is much, much better against a wider array of targets than the GK. It's the same with characters. GK characters can do some nasty things to Daemons for sure, but Imperium armies have access to a lot of very good, efficient characters who will probably do about as good a job as GK and be more useful against more armies as well.
GK are expensive enough that I'm not even sure they're that good against Daemons compared to other options. For example, a GK Strike Marine is the same cost as a Deathwatch Veteran with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. I'm not convinced the GK is better at killing regular Daemons than the Veteran is, and the Veteran is much, much better against a wider array of targets than the GK. It's the same with characters. GK characters can do some nasty things to Daemons for sure, but Imperium armies have access to a lot of very good, efficient characters who will probably do about as good a job as GK and be more useful against more armies as well.
Run of the mill daemons, maybe. Daemon engines and larger targets? That's a whole different story.
No it isn't special ammo on every unit makes 3 units of DW vets much better, at killing a demon engine then 3 GK squads that can only use blessed ammo on one squad. Better yet, thanks to being ++3 or being able to have a termintor in their squad, the DW veterans are not only going to be better on the offensive, they will also last longer .
You would more or less have to bank on the fact that your demon opponent never brings anything that screens stuff, and hope to get good rolls on smite. Then you edge out the DW vets by a little bit, but to be honest I have never seen a chaos soup with DP and primarchs that doesn't run a lot of tzangors or cultists or poxwalkers, and other stuff that loves to eat GK smites.
Karol wrote: No it isn't special ammo on every unit makes 3 units of DW vets much better, at killing a demon engine then 3 GK squads that can only use blessed ammo on one squad. Better yet, thanks to being ++3 or being able to have a termintor in their squad, the DW veterans are not only going to be better on the offensive, they will also last longer .
If you're trying to take down tank equivalents with bolters you've already lost (only exception being IF Centurion mortal wound spam builds). GK's edge against daemon engines as an ally option is that sweet sweet flat 3 damage on "baby" smite from behind a wall of your primary faction.
As long as a Daemon player can spend CP the bring back a unit killed by GK, GK are the worst army to play against Daemons. That’s GW failing at game design.
