Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Source : Grew up on the docks in Liverpool. All my family still live there.

Still alive and kickin'. That's good.
After all, Klopp is also still alive.

Yep. Noticed your German flag, if you've never been to Liverpool I'd say the closest German city in feel is Hamburg. At least of those I've spent time in.

Karol wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Yeah, that gak's not normal

Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Either your family likes to exaggerate or they're literally just making stuff up. This is on par with Trump saying the police were scared to go out on the streets in Manchester (or was it Birmingham?). You also seem, shall we say, a little too eager to believe some of these things that are clearly not true. Every large city in the UK has some level of gang violence, yes, but outside of a few very specific places it's not something the average person encounters. Liverpool is absolutely not even remotely as you describe it. I'm not saying it doesn't have some rough areas but it's not some urban warzone where people are afraid to step out of the house. If you genuinely believe the things you're talking about in your local area are normal (and they actually happened in the first place) then all I can say is your local environment is quite literally the worst place to play I think I've ever heard of. That sucks, but there's nothing anyone around here can do to help you with that, or even relate to it.

As far as GK and optimised opponents go, any IG list with a Castellan is already optimised enough to crush a mono-GK army. Literally just having a Castellan and a bunch of CP-generating Guard is enough to make that game a foregone conclusion before you even start looking at the specifics of army composition. That's a failure from GW's end for sure, but bringing up examples like that isn't too helpful to the discussion at hand. Similarly, talking about how opponents will deliberately slow-play in order to win because the store is closing isn't helpful because it's such a unique problem (and isn't a problem of army design anyway). I wonder what sort of person cares so much about winning an ultimately pointless game of toy soldiers they would do something like that? There are lots of ways GK could be improved, ranging from incremental improvements all the way up to the much-needed complete overhaul but filtering everything through the lens of one singular experience isn't helpful to the discussion.

Karol wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Yeah, that gak's not normal

Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Uh, no, it is 100% not that bad in new york. At least, not on the island - the only criminals that can afford that kind of rent are the billionaire hedge fund manager kind, not the shoot people in an alleyway kind.

Karol wrote:
It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Literally everyone hates Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. The best way to get shanked or shot in the UK is to speak a few loud words in an Eastern European language on the street. Being a Hungarian is okay-ish because everyone thinks we are aliens and can't connect us to Eastern Europe, but being a Slav is a nightmare because you get constantly mistaken for a Russian and the Ruskies are, like, double-hated or something. Not even the God-Emperor can protect you if you are an actual Russian. Sad but true in my experience.

So this is becoming one of *those* threads eh?

Alrighty then.

Sterling191 wrote:
So this is becoming one of *those* threads eh?

Alrighty then.

You have to follow the rules. If a thread isn't about grey knights, it must become about grey knights. If a thread is about grey knights, it must become about oblique references to weird fringe political beliefs that only make sense in a very specific region of the world.

Does anyone else notice how strangely Uzbeks are treated in Botswana? I mean, since the eco-terrorists started their takeover of the political sphere, there's just so many Kyrgyz immigrants, I think the Botswanans are mistaking the Uzbeks for them!

 AtoMaki wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Literally everyone hates Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. The best way to get shanked or shot in the UK is to speak a few loud words in an Eastern European language on the street. Being a Hungarian is okay-ish because everyone thinks we are aliens and can't connect us to Eastern Europe, but being a Slav is a nightmare because you get constantly mistaken for a Russian and the Ruskies are, like, double-hated or something. Not even the God-Emperor can protect you if you are an actual Russian. Sad but true in my experience.

You literally don't know what literally means do you? My fiancé is Russian, she's lived in the UK for 10 years, in 3 major cities in 3 different parts of the country. She has experienced nothing like the discrimination you're talking about here. The worst she's had is being asked to "speak English" while talking to her friend on the Tube in London. Not very pleasant, but nobody pulled a gun on her. Gun violence in general in the UK is extremely low and almost exclusively limited to gang violence in the inner cities. If you've experienced racism at the level you're talking about here you have my sympathies, but I don't think it's representative of the UK as a whole, certainly not at an ingrained, nationwide level as you're implying here. See, it's comments like yours that make things sound way, way worse than they actually are, and then get blown out of proportion and taken as "proof" of how things are.

Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.

Slipspace wrote:

Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.

GK character cadres are ace as support detachments in a psyker/demon (engine) heavy meta right now. My LGS has a large amount of TS and DG forces that go all-in on psychic phase shenanigans with demon engine support. I've taken to running a 4-5 body team of HQs + Banner that locks down the important powers then just melts the crap out of anything packing the Demon keyword.

Crowe in support of T5 DW biker combat squads hard counters Tzangor bombs like nobody's business. Add in the banner boyo for a 2d6 MW per turn shotgun, and a stormshield/stave Libby for the always tasty 2++ melee counter to DP charges and you're off to the races.

I know its a soupy use of them, but they've been absolutely clutch for me.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.

GK character cadres are ace as support detachments in a psyker/demon (engine) heavy meta right now. My LGS has a large amount of TS and DG forces that go all-in on psychic phase shenanigans with demon engine support. I've taken to running a 4-5 body team of HQs + Banner that locks down the important powers then just melts the crap out of anything packing the Demon keyword.

Crowe in support of T5 DW biker combat squads hard counters Tzangor bombs like nobody's business. Add in the banner boyo for a 2d6 MW per turn shotgun, and a stormshield/stave Libby for the always tasty 2++ melee counter to DP charges and you're off to the races.

I guess the question becomes are there enough of those types of armies in the meta to justify spending those points on GK characters rather than jetbike Shield Captains or a pair of BA Smash Captains with Mephiston? It's probably too early to tell if that's the way the meta will shift but I suspect the more generically useful SCD of Custodes or BA might still prove to be better overall. Still, it's a possible niche GK could fill.

Slipspace wrote:

I guess the question becomes are there enough of those types of armies in the meta to justify spending those points on GK characters rather than jetbike Shield Captains or a pair of BA Smash Captains with Mephiston? It's probably too early to tell if that's the way the meta will shift but I suspect the more generically useful SCD of Custodes or BA might still prove to be better overall. Still, it's a possible niche GK could fill.

I can't speak for more "traditional" metas, but right now psychic artillery with a melee rush is the name of the game for probably a good third to a half of the players in the league I'm currently in. We're also using some of the CA2018 custom character rules, so there's more than one caster rocking bonuses to their psyker checks. As a result, the innate +1 to deny (+2 for the Libby) is exquisitely useful. Being able to turn off Warptime, Death Hex, Mental Onslaught and other keystone powers cannot be underestimated.

Combine the above with a serious melee counter-punch and they're an underrated ally IMO. Especially in circumstances where you know the enemy is going to be trying to overrun your position. I largely play Deathwatch, so Slammy or the Jetbike buddies are things I generally don't need, while simultaneously staying away from being too bleeding edge competitive. Not to say that DW does their role better, but that we have similar enough tools. I soup enough as it is, so avoiding the "cookie cutter" bits isn't the worst thing in the world.

Slipspace wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Literally everyone hates Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. The best way to get shanked or shot in the UK is to speak a few loud words in an Eastern European language on the street. Being a Hungarian is okay-ish because everyone thinks we are aliens and can't connect us to Eastern Europe, but being a Slav is a nightmare because you get constantly mistaken for a Russian and the Ruskies are, like, double-hated or something. Not even the God-Emperor can protect you if you are an actual Russian. Sad but true in my experience.

You literally don't know what literally means do you?

Ah. I guess sarcasm doesn't go through the internet very well. Sorry .

I find tagging comments [/sarcasm] helps.

Slipspace wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Anyway, anyone actually had any success with GK since Chapter Approved? I think the lack of nerfs to the powerhouse armies has probably stopped the previously weaker armies getting significantly better despite the buffs they received.

GK character cadres are ace as support detachments in a psyker/demon (engine) heavy meta right now. My LGS has a large amount of TS and DG forces that go all-in on psychic phase shenanigans with demon engine support. I've taken to running a 4-5 body team of HQs + Banner that locks down the important powers then just melts the crap out of anything packing the Demon keyword.

Crowe in support of T5 DW biker combat squads hard counters Tzangor bombs like nobody's business. Add in the banner boyo for a 2d6 MW per turn shotgun, and a stormshield/stave Libby for the always tasty 2++ melee counter to DP charges and you're off to the races.

I guess the question becomes are there enough of those types of armies in the meta to justify spending those points on GK characters rather than jetbike Shield Captains or a pair of BA Smash Captains with Mephiston? It's probably too early to tell if that's the way the meta will shift but I suspect the more generically useful SCD of Custodes or BA might still prove to be better overall. Still, it's a possible niche GK could fill.

It is important to remember that there is no global meta.

Are GKs as allies good if you know you're facing a DEMON heavy army? You don't need to be monobuild GK to get Rites of Banishment. In this way, GK can be seen as very useful, maybe even enough to be left alone in a rules update.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
Are GKs as allies good if you know you're facing a DEMON heavy army? You don't need to be monobuild GK to get Rites of Banishment. In this way, GK can be seen as very useful, maybe even enough to be left alone in a rules update.

GK are expensive enough that I'm not even sure they're that good against Daemons compared to other options. For example, a GK Strike Marine is the same cost as a Deathwatch Veteran with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. I'm not convinced the GK is better at killing regular Daemons than the Veteran is, and the Veteran is much, much better against a wider array of targets than the GK. It's the same with characters. GK characters can do some nasty things to Daemons for sure, but Imperium armies have access to a lot of very good, efficient characters who will probably do about as good a job as GK and be more useful against more armies as well.

Slipspace wrote:


GK are expensive enough that I'm not even sure they're that good against Daemons compared to other options. For example, a GK Strike Marine is the same cost as a Deathwatch Veteran with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. I'm not convinced the GK is better at killing regular Daemons than the Veteran is, and the Veteran is much, much better against a wider array of targets than the GK. It's the same with characters. GK characters can do some nasty things to Daemons for sure, but Imperium armies have access to a lot of very good, efficient characters who will probably do about as good a job as GK and be more useful against more armies as well.

Run of the mill daemons, maybe. Daemon engines and larger targets? That's a whole different story.

No it isn't special ammo on every unit makes 3 units of DW vets much better, at killing a demon engine then 3 GK squads that can only use blessed ammo on one squad. Better yet, thanks to being ++3 or being able to have a termintor in their squad, the DW veterans are not only going to be better on the offensive, they will also last longer .

You would more or less have to bank on the fact that your demon opponent never brings anything that screens stuff, and hope to get good rolls on smite. Then you edge out the DW vets by a little bit, but to be honest I have never seen a chaos soup with DP and primarchs that doesn't run a lot of tzangors or cultists or poxwalkers, and other stuff that loves to eat GK smites.

Karol wrote:
No it isn't special ammo on every unit makes 3 units of DW vets much better, at killing a demon engine then 3 GK squads that can only use blessed ammo on one squad. Better yet, thanks to being ++3 or being able to have a termintor in their squad, the DW veterans are not only going to be better on the offensive, they will also last longer .

If you're trying to take down tank equivalents with bolters you've already lost (only exception being IF Centurion mortal wound spam builds). GK's edge against daemon engines as an ally option is that sweet sweet flat 3 damage on "baby" smite from behind a wall of your primary faction.

As long as a Daemon player can spend CP the bring back a unit killed by GK, GK are the worst army to play against Daemons. That’s GW failing at game design.

SJ