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Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 10:25:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do?

Seems we can expect the first trailer for the final part of the third trilogy at some point tonight, as it's debuting at Star Wars Celebration.

I'm rubbish at working out international time, so don't ask exactly when!

One imagines we'll also get it's full title. Let the froth begin!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
5-6 PM UK time, according to Digital Spy.

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a27085584/star-wars-episode-9-trailer-star-wars-celebration-watch-online/


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 10:42:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


This could be SW's most important trailer ever.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 10:44:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Quite possibly.

I mean, I'm still gonna go see it. Midnight showing. Because of course I am.

But for others? I get it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 14:11:13


Post by: porkuslime


total fanboy here.. yeah, I want to see the trailer, AND the movie.. but Space Princess better be dealt with without clunky CGI or the rest of my family will boycott


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 14:11:14


Post by: Gael Knight


Trailer will probably be very good to disguise the film being hot garbage.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 14:31:02


Post by: Galef


Apparently Rian Johnson stated that he'd be ok if JJ retcons some of his Last Jedi decisions.
I kinda hope he does (like Rey's parents actually being someone and the "nobody" business was a lie either told by Kylo or shown to Kylo so he believes it but it's not true)

All the specific things I think people hated about TLJ can be categorized as deviating from what JJ had set up in TFA. "Subverting expectations" only works when the payoff is worth it. There wasn't a good enough payoff in TLJ, but if there is in EpIX, than I can let myself like TLJ (which I truly want to do)

Having said that, there is 1 thing I will be HIGHLY disappointed with if it doesn't appear in EpX. Rey needs a Light-Staff. It just makes sense for so many reasons:
A) She uses a staff primarily on Jakku, so she is familiar with the fighting style (presumably)

B) The set up is there for Rey to "forge" her own lightsaber from the bits of the old Skywalker one. What better way to close the Skywalker saga that remaking the weapon into something new. Preferable Blue on one blade, Green on the other
It would also show that Rey is not like the Skywalkers before her, but does share characteristics

C) Toy sales. Darth Mauls double saber is such an iconic weapon and sold tons of toys. Heck, a piece of that very saber is used in Rey's staff from TFA. Foreshadowing much?
Imagine how well a "good-guys" double bladed Light-Staff would sell.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 14:31:40


Post by: Xenomancers


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This could be SW's most important trailer ever.

Or the least important.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 14:38:56


Post by: Gael Knight


It would make sense if Rey's staff was a discarded/broken Lightsaber Pike, it certainly looks like one.

Space battles in Star Wars have been a bit gimped post last Jedi.

I'll never understand why Disney didn't just plan out a draft from the beginning. It wouldn't have been difficult. Plenty of amazing and dedicated writers could have written better arcs for the new trilogy in an afternoon.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 14:50:02


Post by: Xenomancers


 Gael Knight wrote:
It would make sense if Rey's staff was a discarded/broken Lightsaber Pike, it certainly looks like one.

Space battles in Star Wars have been a bit gimped post last Jedi.

I'll never understand why Disney didn't just plan out a draft from the beginning. It wouldn't have been difficult. Plenty of amazing and dedicated writers could have written better arcs for the new trilogy in an afternoon.

When your objective is not to write a good story but to deliberately subvert expectations - you get garbage.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:08:24


Post by: Formosa


I get the feeling the ENTIRE franchise is riding on this movie, if its good then it will bring back a lot of fans, if its as bad as TLJ I think a full reboot with be the only thing that saves star wars with a complete change in leadership and direction from the top down, Disney did not buy star wars for it to be driven into the ground one movie at a time.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:34:13


Post by: Galef


I just realized that this Trailer (which is more likely to be a "teaser" really) is probably going to play before Avengers: Endgame.
So aside from that movie itself, the Previews and End Credits may even be worth price of admission alone. Admittedly, though I see movies on the cheap at a local Theater, so YMMV

What do you guys think of the leaked poster photo?


-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:36:28


Post by: Grimskul


 Galef wrote:
I just realized that this Trailer (which is more likely to be a "teaser" really) is probably going to play before Avengers: Endgame.

So aside from that movie itself, the Previews and End Credits may even be worth price of admission alone. Admittedly, though I see movies on the cheap at a local Theater, so YMMV

What do you guys think of the leaked poster photo?


-


Huh, I guess we'll finally see the other Knights of Ren in action? Two movies too late but I guess better than never.

But yeah, this is pretty much the lynchpin movie that will make or break future SW spin off movies. They lost a lot if goodwill with TLJ.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:39:59


Post by: Galef


I really hope that goofy alien next to Finn isn't Jar-Jar 2.0
Red Storm Troopers are cool though

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:41:21


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


Wait,wait,wait...does 3PO have a bowcaster?!?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:44:20


Post by: Xenomancers


 Formosa wrote:
I get the feeling the ENTIRE franchise is riding on this movie, if its good then it will bring back a lot of fans, if its as bad as TLJ I think a full reboot with be the only thing that saves star wars with a complete change in leadership and direction from the top down, Disney did not buy star wars for it to be driven into the ground one movie at a time.
They bought it to make money. It's already paid for itself. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/30/six-years-after-buying-lucasfilm-disney-has-recouped-its-investment.html

That is just the box office too. All the merc and stuff. They are making tons of money. Disney and GW are actually similar in this sense. Failing their way into massive profits.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:49:20


Post by: Captain Joystick


I still remember when Revenge of the Sith was about to be released and people were still lining up around blocks and sleeping on sidewalks to get there first.

More specifically, I remember seeing that and then it cutting back to Jon Stewart exasperated, saying "It's not going to be any good!"

I really don't think the franchise is in any more or less danger because of the quality of TLJ, as it is from other factors, like competing with other Disney tentpole movies and fatigue from frequent releases.

I didn't see RotS in the theatres, wish I had. I don't plan on making that mistake again. People here and elsewhere will crow about how bad the movie is regardless of its actual quality, so I don't plan on even pretending to listen to them this time around.

 Galef wrote:
Apparently Rian Johnson stated that he'd be ok if JJ retcons some of his Last Jedi decisions.
I kinda hope he does (like Rey's parents actually being someone and the "nobody" business was a lie either told by Kylo or shown to Kylo so he believes it but it's not true)

Everyone 'apparently' says everything, I'll believe it when I see it.

And personally, I hope they keep it. I prefer it over any fan explanation I've hears about Rey's secret Jedi parents who loved her so much they kept her safe by leaving her in the care of Unkar "risk life and limb for no food" Plutt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
What do you guys think of the leaked poster photo?


Very fake.

The ships in the background are from the Alphabet Squadron book cover.
Nice try.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:52:11


Post by: Vaktathi


After the last one I just can't bring myself to be terribly interested in this. It's not that I hate everything Star Wars now, I'd love to go back and replay Dark Forces or TIE Fighter or rewatch ANH, but the the story, coherence, characters, tone, and general acting quality of the last couple flicks just did not click for me enough to be interested in Episode IX. Even potential spoilers aren't bothering me I find.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:54:57


Post by: Galef


 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Wait,wait,wait...does 3PO have a bowcaster?!?
Yes, but golf caddies aren't carrying the clubs to play golf for themselves.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 15:58:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Xenomancers wrote:
Or the least important.
After Rian Johnson's torturous abortion masquerading as a Star Wars film that was immediately followed up by "Han Solo's Really Important Week" where he did everything important in his backstory in the space of a few days, yeah, this trailer is really fething important to Star Wars as a franchise.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 16:17:50


Post by: Frazzled


 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Wait,wait,wait...does 3PO have a bowcaster?!?


Yes. That looks stupid. And the troopers aren't red, just have red light shining on them. Where's R2D2?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 16:40:39


Post by: Ratius


5.30pm here. Is it streaming or am I just failing at googlefu?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:29:01


Post by: Captain Joystick


Teaser is up!




Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:33:11


Post by: DaveC


Not giving much away good to see Lando and Leia but is that the title?

Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker

They seem to be retconning Rey's parentage again so is she a Skywalker now?

Plus Palpatines laugh at the end!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:38:50


Post by: Sterling191


 DaveC wrote:

They seem to be retconning Rey's parentage again so is she a Skywalker now?


She was always a Skywalker.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:39:19


Post by: Gael Knight


Bit of a Death Star sitting submerged in a sea? Pretty sure this was in the concept art for The Force Awakens.

Palpatine laugh?

Meh.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:39:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Well, I nearly cried! Genuinely. Not even joking.

Leia’s refrain, that laugh.

And what an intriguing title....


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:40:58


Post by: Kanluwen


Kylo Ren's a Skywalker since Leia is his mother...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:41:31


Post by: DaveC


Apparently Ian McDiarmid was present for the release of the trailer.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:44:52


Post by: Xenomancers


PFFF this film sells 2 billion in sales in the first few days regardless of any of the content.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Kylo Ren's a Skywalker since Leia is his mother...

Yep - who resistance is dead. Only Rey and Kylo are left. They join forces and fight Snokes Ghost - or a clone of palpatine whose masterminded the whole first order rise or something. Or maybe it was luke the whole time.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:53:06


Post by: Captain Joystick


DaveC wrote:Apparently Ian McDiarmid was present for the release of the trailer.

He was. When the lights came up he was standing in stage and the crowd lost it.

He held up the mic and started giggling like a kid, eventually composing himself enough to say "Play it again!" in that voice.

Gael Knight wrote:Bit of a Death Star sitting submerged in a sea? Pretty sure this was in the concept art for The Force Awakens.

That chase with the skiff and the speeder bikes looks a lot like one of the pieces in the ILM artstation challenge.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:53:21


Post by: Galef


While I've always hoped Rey was a Skywalkers in a familial sense (don't care if it's derivative, it's the mythos of SW), I'm getting a vibe that she may be a Skywalker in the sense that "Skywalker" has another meaning in the SW canon aside for Anakin & Luke's last name.

As in "The" Skywalker.

Gotta be honest though, I wasn't feeling the hype for this before. Now I am.
Fingers crossed that Luke is in the movie for a good bit. Even as a Force Ghost. The Generations thing also makes me hope for Hayden's Anakin and Ewan's Obi-wan to also appear. Rey having a "Force Ghost" council to guide her forward for at least 1 scene.

I'd also LOVE to see Kylo have a conversation with Force Ghost Anakin. But....I hoped for that in the last 2 movies, soooo

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:54:28


Post by: Gael Knight


The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
and now
"The Rise of Skywalker"

The title doesn't even fit.

The Rise of Skywalker? What does that even mean? Is that not what the OT was about?

Bringing The Emperor into this when he hasn't been mentioned at all is pure desperation.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:56:11


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Optimistic after that trailer. Nice visuals. (Is JJ promising us a young woman v TIE scene after it went missing in Rogue One).

The 'legend' coming to an end, Luke's voice-over, the Death Star, Palpatine....

This is closure on Luke's story.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:56:24


Post by: Elbows


For the second time in my life (first being mid-prequels) I'm actually not really expecting much. To the point that I won't be rushing to see the movie in theatres.

They might as well have called it Star Wars: Damage Control. After The Last Jedi and to a limited extent Solo - I've lost almost all of my enthusiasm for Star Wars as a franchise. I was able to cope with the mediocrity of The Force Awakens (I sincerely hoped it was just a kind of "meh" half-hearted start to something really good...) and I thought Rogue One was absolutely perfect as a Star Wars film...but then Star Wars just slid into the toilet.

I'm not a life-long dedicated, convention-attending, light-sabre-wielding Star Wars superfan. I'm a kid who grew up with the original trilogy, the toys, and then more or less ignored the Episdoe I-III movies in high school....but the simple joy Star Wars used to bring me has been gutted by political bs and artistic-selfishness. Part of me is actually glad to see them state the Saga is ending. I'd rather see an IP slow down or quit than be ground into dust by film-making hacks.

As much as I like JJ's film abilities...I don't think there's much you can do to fix the absolute gak show that was TLJ.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 17:56:30


Post by: Necros


Kylo will turn good, and spectacularly sacrifice himself saving the day -- nay, the universe, so Rey can be the one and only jedi forever.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:02:49


Post by: Grimskul


That Palpatine laugh is probably the only thing that miiiight get me to see in theatres.

Bit weird with the Tie Fighter trying to run over Rey though, did it run out of ammo or something? Woman driver? Maybe its Rose thinking she's "saving" Rey like she did with Finn? Find out in the next episode of Star Wars Z!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:07:45


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


Lando's back, which is something I suppose, and Billy Dee Williams' charm is always worth watching, and Ian Mcdiarmid's Shakespearian presence, is always on the ball, but if it's as bad as the previous two instalments, then not even these legends of Star wars will be enough to save the franchise.

As I've said before, Phantom Menace et al, are not good films, but Lucas' heart was in the right place. He genuinely tried to make good Star wars films, and I respect him for that. The execution was just wrong. Compare and contrast that to the pure cynicism of TLJ.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:10:31


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


My low expectations remain low.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:12:17


Post by: Yodhrin


Not going to see it in cinemas, not because "ERMEHGURD TRIGGAAAARRED" or whatever nonsense Sequel superfans tell themselves about folk who disliked TLJ, but simply because TLJ lowered my enthusiasm for the Sequels enough that my normal everyday dislike of going to the cinema isn't overcome by it.

I am however interested to see where this is going. I suspect most of the stuff folk are discussing/getting hype over is just JJ "mystery box" BS, but honestly it's kind of hilarious that TLJ bombed so hard with some fans that they're hoping we get Palpatine back - imagine being the guy who made a SW movie so reviled by many that they start actively wishing that its sequel ends up mining one of the most mocked parts of the old EU for ideas


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:20:03


Post by: Necros


Maybe when Vader threw the emperor into the bottomless pit, he came out a little hole where a tie fighter could pick him up, just like Luke did in Empire. He's been hiding out in secret all these years, waiting to strike when we least expect it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:20:35


Post by: Captain Joystick


So I'm kind of at a loss to explain why D-0, the one-wheeled droid that kinda looks like a rubber duck, is in the (still very obviously fake) poster.

Along with accurate costumes for Finn and Poe (not sure if the lightsaber prop modification is the same and the red troopers and 3P0 are obvious shop jobs), we're there other prerelease images I didn't see?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:22:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It’s possible.

I mean, The Emperor was nothing if not proficient in The Force. Once the initial shock of Vader’s betrayal was overcome (it was a long way down), he could easily Force Repel himself, to prevent ‘orrible splutchy pancake old bloke death.

Or, it’s a Clone. Or, for those that’ve read the comics and new EU novels, one of those messenger Droid Things, giving His orders to the remaining faithful?

Lots of ways it could go. And I’m champing at the bit to find out.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:25:04


Post by: Captain Joystick


 Necros wrote:
Maybe when Vader threw the emperor into the bottomless pit, he came out a little hole where a tie fighter could pick him up, just like Luke did in Empire. He's been hiding out in secret all these years, waiting to strike when we least expect it.


My first guess is some EU style terrible 'dark side force ghost' posessing people, seduce people to the dark side and drives them to imitate his glories, may or may not possess their bodies, may or may not be grooming Kylo Ren for that purpose, may or may not have created Anakin for that purpose.

My second guess is he's survived bodily all this time through the dark side of the force and can only lie there, calling out to people. Can't move but refuses to give up and die?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:26:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Could simply be Palpatine manifesting as a Force Ghost himself. Certainly one way to run an Empire


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:27:13


Post by: Sterling191


The number of people who seem to have forgotten that audio of Vader's respirator was cranked up to 11 in the EPVII trailer amuses me.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:29:38


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
My low expectations remain low.


If my low expectations got any lower, I'd break through the Earth's core and end up sitting on an Australian beach.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:30:56


Post by: Frazzled


Palpatine laugh good (Its like I said wouldn't that be neat...JJ reads Dakka!) rest is a shoulder shrug. TLJ was so bad the real trailer and reviews from people I know have to be awesome for me to see it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:35:05


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
My low expectations remain low.


If my low expectations got any lower, I'd break through the Earth's core and end up sitting on an Australian beach.


and here I thought I was the pessimist.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:36:36


Post by: Genoside07


I am going to have to give it a Meh...

Wasn't hoping for much... but I am tired of no story and a big advertisement for the video game / toy tie in


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:39:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Eff me.

There are people here who I need to tap up for Lottery Numbers, telling so much from the merest tease.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:40:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


"Every generation has a legend."

Yes. We know. You killed him in the last film.

Weird title. Palatine is back, apparently. Ok. *shrugs* Don't really know what else I'm meant to think.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:41:32


Post by: Gael Knight


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s possible.

I mean, The Emperor was nothing if not proficient in The Force. Once the initial shock of Vader’s betrayal was overcome (it was a long way down), he could easily Force Repel himself, to prevent ‘orrible splutchy pancake old bloke death.


This is pure cope. Remember when he explodes and energy, almost implied to be his own evil essence, shoots back up the shaft?




Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:42:52


Post by: Frazzled


And a blast from the past comparison:



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:43:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Did he explode though? Or just bounce off and dislodge a pipe of some kind?

We dunno! I mean, he probably did explode. But a Force Ghost Palpatine is entirely possible.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:44:23


Post by: Frazzled


True that.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:47:25


Post by: Captain Brown


Captain Joystick,

Thanks for posting the Teaser.

Mrs Captain Brown and I will go to see it if we can find someone to take Ms Captain Brown. Sadly the importance of the series has faded with time...and a previous weak movie.

Cheers,

CB


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 18:56:53


Post by: Galef


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Did he explode though? Or just bounce off and dislodge a pipe of some kind?

We dunno! I mean, he probably did explode. But a Force Ghost Palpatine is entirely possible.
I would not be surprised if Palps and Snoke are somehow connected and the "reveal" of Palps in EpX will be that Snoke was just a puppet for a still living/resurrected/ghost Palpatine.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 19:12:16


Post by: Riquende


I don't think I've ever said on here that a guy I work with claims that his sister's boyfriend's brother's boyfriend (what does that make us? Absolutely nothing) works in costume design on the film and has apparently measured up Matt Smith for 'Palpatine style' robes, as well as confirmed that there are Ewok costumes involved.

I've never known whether to believe him as he knows I don't care for the sequels and might just be trying to wind me up.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 20:43:21


Post by: gorgon


Am I wrong that TFA hinted that Kylo was communing with someone...presumably Vader, but now possibly Palpatine?

Anyway, trailer looks good to me. I assume "Rise of Skywalker" refers to Ben/Kylo, after having seized command of the First Order.

And thinking about it in that context, it doesn't feel like this one is going to be a 180 degree thematic reversal from TLJ. The square off in the trailer is Rey representing the Jedi order against the tyranny of the Skywalker clan, whom at this point has done unmeasurable harm to the galaxy.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 20:53:45


Post by: Galef


 gorgon wrote:
Am I wrong that TFA hinted that Kylo was communing with someone...presumably Vader, but now possibly Palpatine?

Anyway, trailer looks good to me. I assume "Rise of Skywalker" refers to Ben/Kylo, after having seized command of the First Order.

And thinking about it in that context, it doesn't feel like this one is going to be a 180 degree thematic reversal from TLJ. The square off in the trailer is Rey representing the Jedi order against the tyranny of the Skywalker clan, whom at this point has done unmeasurable harm to the galaxy.
I don't think this makes very much sense. Kylo may be a Skywalker by blood, but he is NOT a Skywalker by name. So it would be odd for the movie title to refer to him. Kylo himself also associates the Skywalker name with his uncle Luke, not his idol Grappie Vader.

I really think it's referring to Rey. Maybe not as a Skywalker by blood, but THE Skywalker. I'm having a hard time remembering where this came from, but I distinctly remember a reference to old Lore in canon, or an old story concept in which "Skywalker" is a title, not a sir name.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 21:00:23


Post by: Necros


Maybe it could be that in the end when Kylo redeems himself and becomes good, he changes his name to Ben Skywalker? More in honor of mom.. assuming Lea will die in this one, because of IRL?

I must be the only person that didn't hate TLJ. The only thing I didn't like that was more of an eyeroll for me was lea waking up in a vacuum and flying through space like nothing was wrong. Musta been those pesky midichlorians at it again.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 21:17:24


Post by: SamusDrake


Disappointed with The Force Awakens( least favourite film of all the movies ) yet enjoyed The Last Jedi, so bit uneasy with JJ back in the director's chair. Would much rather have Rian return for this outing...

Um...not sure what is coming next but so far its been shades of Dark Empire. As Snoke joined Kylo and Rey's minds through the force, he most likely tried to manipulate Luke into killing Kylo, but being a Master was able to shake it off at the last minute and could do like wise by projecting himself through the force on Crait - giving Kylo a damn good trolling. Luke did something similar in DE where he tricked Leia into leaving without him so she could escape the Emperor. The New Republic is turned into The Rebellion over night by a remanant of the old Empire...

Maybe there will be a civil war within the New Order...something to do with Clone Troopers as referenced in The Force Awakens? Kylo is now in charge and thinks Hux and his troopers are incompetent fools...or maybe the Emperor will take a clone body as he did in Dark Empire.

Okay, that was a wreaked Death Star in the trailer. Ah! But which one? Considering its close proximity to Endor's moon, and considering the Emperor met his dimise on the 2nd, I'd say its the one from ROTJ. A return to Endor? Hmmm!

Rey and Kylo are probably the "brother and sister" from Clone Wars and the Emperor's evil spirit is what has thrown them out of balance, while Anakin will return from the Netherworld of the Force to bring them into balance...or maybe its Luke?

Ummm...Rey needs a mentor and...Asoka seems a good candidate for that. Maybe Ezra will return with Thrawn in tow and epically bring the house down. Considering the sibling thread was in the final of Rebels along with an appearance from the Emperor( seriously, if you haven't already watched Rebels, do it now - McDiarmid is in the house! ) this would be friggin awesome. Actually, thinking of it, Rebels is hands down the best thing this side of the Disney acquistion and a certain Padawan needs closure with a long lost mentor.

Ah, I'm not in a rush for it. Its out in December when I'll be hitting the big 4-0. Scary! o_O


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 21:36:36


Post by: BlaxicanX


What was the Tie fighters plan there? Was it trying to hyperspace ram her?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 21:38:02


Post by: Thargrim


That was some interesting heavy breathing there at the beginning..., anyway.

I'm gonna remain cautious on this one. The initial teaser for the TLJ also looked good. Also i'm assuming they are on endor at the end, with the ruins of the second death star. As I can't think of much reason they would need to visit the ruins of the 1st death star.




Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 21:56:28


Post by: Formosa


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
I get the feeling the ENTIRE franchise is riding on this movie, if its good then it will bring back a lot of fans, if its as bad as TLJ I think a full reboot with be the only thing that saves star wars with a complete change in leadership and direction from the top down, Disney did not buy star wars for it to be driven into the ground one movie at a time.
They bought it to make money. It's already paid for itself. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/30/six-years-after-buying-lucasfilm-disney-has-recouped-its-investment.html

That is just the box office too. All the merc and stuff. They are making tons of money. Disney and GW are actually similar in this sense. Failing their way into massive profits.


That article is all over the place, it mentions marketing cost but does not factor it in?? Anyway thankfully all the star wars films have been made in the UK so costs must be made publically available, star wars has made $4.7 billion so far for disney in sales, but has cost $1.3 Billion to make the movies and that does not include marketing costs for the movies which can run an average of $200 million per movie, which disney would likely be in the top end or higher for the SW movies, so 4 movies in so far thats another $1.2 Billion in marketing alone if we take the article you posted at its word, so Disney more realistically has just about hit the halfway mark with just its movie franchise.

Merc sales for the new films has been extremely poor however, not star trek poor but still pretty bad, but disney has not told us how much its made from merchandise, Toys R Us going under didnt help either as Fortune puts them at around 15% of the market pre fall, it also does not help that Star Wars toys biggest competitor is ..... Marvel, and they are flying off the shelves (38% of the toy sales which is insane!), money goes to disney either way but they are competing with themselves for shelf space, all that being said though it does not look like the merch sales for Star Wars is doing well at all, so I doubt its made up the difference yet.

That is still damn good going though and I expect the new one to make disney finally break even IF its good.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:06:38


Post by: Galef


 Thargrim wrote:
Also i'm assuming they are on endor at the end, with the ruins of the second death star. As I can't think of much reason they would need to visit the ruins of the 1st death star.
Agreed. Besides, the 1st DS was a bit farther away from Yavin for it's ruins to land there. And it didn't look like there was much left to dirft that way anyway

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:18:27


Post by: Turnip Jedi


fingers crossed our Dais has dun learned some acting this time round


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:19:30


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


In my lifetime, I've seen Bobby Ewing come back from the dead in that infamous Dallas shower scene

So, if the film makers are hell bent on bringing Palpatine back for whatever reason, no amount of bullgak will be spared in order for this to happen.

I say this, not as a criticism, but as a fact: their film, their rules.

Yeah, plot logic might go out the window, but if people pay their money and are happy with it, then I suppose that's all that counts at the end of the day...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:20:30


Post by: ZergSmasher


The trailer was...intriguing to say the least. I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach to it as I do with a lot of movies. As long as it's better than the garbage fire that was TLJ, I'm okay with it. I did enjoy seeing Lando in there, and I wonder what the whole thing with the Palpatine laugh was about?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:23:28


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The trailer was...intriguing to say the least. I'm definitely going to take a "wait and see" approach to it as I do with a lot of movies. As long as it's better than the garbage fire that was TLJ, I'm okay with it. I did enjoy seeing Lando in there, and I wonder what the whole thing with the Palpatine laugh was about?


I got my fingers burned with the lure of Han Solo in TFA. They certainly cashed in their nostalgia dollars with me, but as far as this Palpatine laugh goes, I ain't getting suckered again.

I would advise everybody to exercise caution.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:24:01


Post by: SamusDrake


STAR WARS - EPISODE 9: LANDO UNLEASHED.

Apparently they got the title wrong and will fix it shortly... ^_^


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:31:01


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my lifetime, I've seen Bobby Ewing come back from the dead in that infamous Dallas shower scene

So, if the film makers are hell bent on bringing Palpatine back for whatever reason, no amount of bullgak will be spared in order for this to happen.

I say this, not as a criticism, but as a fact: their film, their rules.

Yeah, plot logic might go out the window, but if people pay their money and are happy with it, then I suppose that's all that counts at the end of the day...


Force Spirit Palpatine.

What else you got?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:38:16


Post by: Formosa


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my lifetime, I've seen Bobby Ewing come back from the dead in that infamous Dallas shower scene

So, if the film makers are hell bent on bringing Palpatine back for whatever reason, no amount of bullgak will be spared in order for this to happen.

I say this, not as a criticism, but as a fact: their film, their rules.

Yeah, plot logic might go out the window, but if people pay their money and are happy with it, then I suppose that's all that counts at the end of the day...


Force Spirit Palpatine.

What else you got?


That laugh at the end of the trailer was literally the only thing that got me interested, Palpatine is my favourite movie bad guy.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:41:30


Post by: Voss


Johnson: Bloodlines and legacies don't matter, world!

Abrams: Hold my beer.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:43:01


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my lifetime, I've seen Bobby Ewing come back from the dead in that infamous Dallas shower scene

So, if the film makers are hell bent on bringing Palpatine back for whatever reason, no amount of bullgak will be spared in order for this to happen.

I say this, not as a criticism, but as a fact: their film, their rules.

Yeah, plot logic might go out the window, but if people pay their money and are happy with it, then I suppose that's all that counts at the end of the day...


Force Spirit Palpatine.

What else you got?


Midichlorians??


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:44:00


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Which are a reflection, not the cause, of potential.

Next?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:58:15


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which are a reflection, not the cause, of potential.

Next?


Well, if you want to go beyond light-hearted quips, and get all 'serious' about it, then let's stick to the official cannon.

Force-spirit ghosts, to the best of my understanding, from reading the official revenge of the Sith novel, is an ability limited to Jedi only, the good guys. It's byond the spiritual understanding and ability of those who practice the dark side of the force.

You'll note a recurring pattern: Obi-Wan, Yoda, Liam Neeson, and Anakin Skywalker, when he redeemed himself after ROTJ.

So if the creators want to gak over their own official canon, then it's no skin off my nose. Your opinion may differ.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 22:59:02


Post by: Togusa


 Gael Knight wrote:
Trailer will probably be very good to disguise the film being hot garbage.


Seconded. None of the new scifi big two films have been worth a darn.

STD is, well, it might as well be an STD.

However, my disgust aired for posterity sake, to all you loyal fans, enjoy your thing. I hope it is good for you!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:00:44


Post by: Grey Templar


Errrm, well. Bringing Palaptine back can work, but they have to do it correctly.

I still have some hope, but there is a very good possibility they choke.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:08:20


Post by: SamusDrake


Ah! But in Clone Wars Yoda meets a swanky sith lord ghost! Apparently voiced by Mark Hamill!




Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:14:33


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


SamusDrake wrote:
Ah! But in Clone Wars Yoda meets a swanky sith lord ghost! Apparently voiced by Mark Hamill!




Damn your eyes!

In my defence, I can't be expected to know every cartoon, film, official happy meal, or whatever infinite spin-offs have happened these past decades.

Anyway, he's not a ghost, he's a...phantom, an apparition. Big difference.

Edit. Didn't Mark Hamill disown his Star Wars input? Technically, this voice-over should be nul and void.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:18:37


Post by: Gael Knight


Did you even watch the clip you just posted? He's not a force ghost. He doesn't even realise he's dead. It's some Sith trick an "illusion" as Yoda states. A test for those who wish to enter the tomb.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:19:15


Post by: Vulcan


 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
In my lifetime, I've seen Bobby Ewing come back from the dead in that infamous Dallas shower scene

So, if the film makers are hell bent on bringing Palpatine back for whatever reason, no amount of bullgak will be spared in order for this to happen.

I say this, not as a criticism, but as a fact: their film, their rules.

Yeah, plot logic might go out the window, but if people pay their money and are happy with it, then I suppose that's all that counts at the end of the day...


Well, clones are an established part of this story, and the idea of the Emperor 'jumping' into a cloned body has been done before in the EU...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:35:30


Post by: BlaxicanX


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which are a reflection, not the cause, of potential.

Next?
Unless there's a way to artificially boost your mitichlorian count, that's like saying good genetics are a reflection of your athletic potential and not the cause.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/12 23:46:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Dude.

It’s canonical. The stronger a being is in The Force, the more midichlorians they have.

Midichlorians are a symptom. Not a causation.


Get with the now, man


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 00:45:51


Post by: gorgon


 Galef wrote:
Having said that, there is 1 thing I will be HIGHLY disappointed with if it doesn't appear in EpX. Rey needs a Light-Staff. It just makes sense for so many reasons:


That's been my call ever since TFA. And Ridley gave kind of a cagey answer when asked about Luke's saber:

Ridley said, “My answer is not the end of the story because there are many more months to come and a film to come, but the lightsaber that Rey inherited from Luke lives.”


That doesn't exactly make it a lock, of course.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 00:55:06


Post by: Backfire


 Galef wrote:
Apparently Rian Johnson stated that he'd be ok if JJ retcons some of his Last Jedi decisions.
I kinda hope he does (like Rey's parents actually being someone and the "nobody" business was a lie either told by Kylo or shown to Kylo so he believes it but it's not true)

All the specific things I think people hated about TLJ can be categorized as deviating from what JJ had set up in TFA. "Subverting expectations" only works when the payoff is worth it.


TFA already hinted that Rey's parents were nobodies, as Maz flat out told Rey to get over her parentage as they are gone for good. Since Maz was the Yoda subsitute (ie. really wise sage), what she said must have had some truth behind it. And really, that was the best outcome, as people are sick of everyone being related to each other and damn Skywalker clan running everything, like McMahons running WWE. Also it made Rey's character much more real and likeable. She was dreaming of having a big messianic background, and she did not have it. Her disappointment in that scene, when Kylo brings down her cloud castle, is tangible and touching.

Seriously, there was never a "big great plan" for either Rey's or Snoke's origin. They were just characters made for that movie with enough vagueness left in them so that they could be taken to multiple directions. Which is exactly what Lucas did in original trilogy. Pretty much none of what happened in Ep V or VI was planned when New Hope was being made.

In the prequels, of course, Lucas had laid it out all before and it went horribly wrong. But that is another story.

Any way, re: teaser, well it's just random collection of scenes. Doesn't really tell us anything. Opening scene is likely Rey being hunted by one of the Knights of Ren. Name of the movie kind of seems to spoil the ending, as it's not Rise of the SkywalkerS. There is only 1 Skywalker left, Kylo Ren. He has already fallen, so apparently he will rise now. Death Star wreck and Palpatine laughter seems to hint of him returning, but it might just as well be some short Force ghost or echo with little effect on overall story.

No big space battle? Well, it could still come I suppose.

So Lando comes back to simply drive the Falcon for old times sake - same as before, just older, like Han? That is MEGA disappointing. Lando was a leader type, by now he should be a major faction leader, maybe Emperor.

Poster looks good I suppose.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 00:55:41


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Necros wrote:
Maybe it could be that in the end when Kylo redeems himself and becomes good, he changes his name to Ben Skywalker? More in honor of mom.. assuming Lea will die in this one, because of IRL?

I must be the only person that didn't hate TLJ. The only thing I didn't like that was more of an eyeroll for me was lea waking up in a vacuum and flying through space like nothing was wrong. Musta been those pesky midichlorians at it again.


I loved the Last Jedi.

Flying through space would be an easy feat for someone who can move objects with the Force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backfire wrote:


So Lando comes back to simply drive the Falcon for old times sake - same as before, just older, like Han? That is MEGA disappointing. Lando was a leader type, by now he should be a major faction leader, maybe Emperor.


I would imagine Lando is leading the Cavalry for the epic space battle at the end of the movie.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 01:05:57


Post by: Backfire


 Crimson Devil wrote:

I would imagine Lando is leading the Cavalry for the epic space battle at the end of the movie.


That is pretty much how I imagine it too, and would make great deal of sense.

So given that, JJ probably brings him back simply for few gags and a nostalgy act.

edit. By the way, that desert world is Endor. Fall of the Death Star II caused a major environmental disaster on the ecosystem, widespread desertification, and extinction of the Ewok.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 02:13:12


Post by: BlaxicanX


That theory has been rattling around for literally like 25 years.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 05:03:48


Post by: Yodhrin


The more I think about it, the more I think the pappy Emps laugh is a JJ misdirect. If it wasn't, if he was really going to be a major part of the plot, I don't think they'd have had Ian McDiarmid up on stage at the announce, it would have been left more ambiguous. I suspect it'll be flashback stuff, or Rey having a "failure in the cave" moment(except they'll write her as succeeding, of course) during training with ghostie Luke, something along those lines.

EDIT: Either way, it was shrewd to chuck it out there, since JJ has folk talking about the film for reasons other than TLJ.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 06:25:29


Post by: epronovost


So, if I were to make a wild totally baseless suposition about what kind of movie Rise of Skywalker will be, I would say we will have a "treasure hunt" adventure. Kylo Ren will launch himself into a quest to recover artefacts that belongs to his grand father and Palpatine to increase his powers and solidify his tenuous hold at the head of the First Order. Rey attempts to stop him before he does something stupid like disturbing the Force ghost of Palpatine himself (which he of course will). With a bit of luck, we might have a Ghost fight between Luke and Palpatine and maybe even shades of Vader thrown in there for good measure. There will be a minor retkon of Rey's origin. She's indeed born from nobodies who died, but, just like Anakin, she's a pure product of the Force that created her as some sort of reflex to preserve its balance. This kind of people are known as "Skywalker".

I predict its going to be better since more tightly focused than the Last Jedi. It's not going to be a masterpiece (objectively speaking, none of the Starwars were masterpiece, they were at best good blockbuster movies). I personnaly think it's going to be the best of the new trilogy and probably at par with Return of the Jedi in term of quality. Since I enjoyed the Last Jedi and thought the Force Awaken was OK (it really was just a reash of a New Hope 35 years later), I expect a grade between 75 to 85% for this instalment.

I think the movie will have some issues surrounding the role of Leia since Carry Fisher died and there is no easy way to deal with it.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 06:43:31


Post by: Grey Templar


Since they are allegedly having some time pass between this movie and the last, they may have Leia die off camera. but still use the scenes Carrie Fisher filmed for this movie as flashback material. Good use of flashbacks could be good for semi-explaining how the Resistance gets out of the pickle they are in at the end of the last movie(only ~30ish people stuck on the Falcon) without having to completely go through it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 08:36:23


Post by: Mr Morden


Meh....watched the trailer to see what all the paid hype across the mass media was about - If JJ can clear up the stinking mess left in the bowl by Johnson.

Silly starting scene on the usual desert world......
Flashy imagery and little substance - so same as every episode since the original trilogy.

Disapointing and probably the best bit was the line "the end of the saga" - put it down now.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 08:41:39


Post by: Thargrim


I did kinda yawn at seeing another desert world. Especially if this is a new one, how many bland desert worlds are they gonna come up with. Plus jumping the tie fighter is silly theatrics, a scene that only makes sense to make the audience go oooohhh ahhh.

JJ will deliver a flashy movie, but he tends to be better at setting up stories than finishing them.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 08:45:13


Post by: Backfire


 BlaxicanX wrote:
That theory has been rattling around for literally like 25 years.


That's where I got it. In fact wasn't it mentioned even in some EU story?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
So, if I were to make a wild totally baseless suposition about what kind of movie Rise of Skywalker will be, I would say we will have a "treasure hunt" adventure. Kylo Ren will launch himself into a quest to recover artefacts that belongs to his grand father and Palpatine to increase his powers and solidify his tenuous hold at the head of the First Order. Rey attempts to stop him before he does something stupid like disturbing the Force ghost of Palpatine himself (which he of course will). With a bit of luck, we might have a Ghost fight between Luke and Palpatine and maybe even shades of Vader thrown in there for good measure. There will be a minor retkon of Rey's origin. She's indeed born from nobodies who died, but, just like Anakin, she's a pure product of the Force that created her as some sort of reflex to preserve its balance. This kind of people are known as "Skywalker".


I really hope they're not doing another treasure hunt (though I agree teaser slightly hints to that direction). They just concluded one, and also, it would be hella-lame if all the military and political power of the First Order they have gathered is suddenly negated because of some mystical doohickey. You can't handwave things away.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 11:20:23


Post by: reds8n







..we're so easily pleased t'would seem.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 11:55:42


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


 reds8n wrote:





..we're so easily pleased t'would seem.



Well, to be fair, he is the Senate.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 12:20:09


Post by: reds8n


https://twitter.com/jamescdyer/status/1116768667948077056



In case there’s any lingering ambiguity from the trailer (and McDiarmid’s appearance at the panel!), I can 100% confirm that Palpatine is back in The Rise Of Skywalker as I just asked JJ. He’s thrilled - and slightly incredulous- that McDiarmid’s presence on set didn’t leak.


He works/writes for Empire magazine.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 13:06:58


Post by: Backfire


 reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/jamescdyer/status/1116768667948077056



In case there’s any lingering ambiguity from the trailer (and McDiarmid’s appearance at the panel!), I can 100% confirm that Palpatine is back in The Rise Of Skywalker as I just asked JJ. He’s thrilled - and slightly incredulous- that McDiarmid’s presence on set didn’t leak.


He works/writes for Empire magazine.



Well of course, somebody who works for the Empire would hype up Emperor.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 14:16:17


Post by: Yodhrin


Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 18:50:39


Post by: Peregrine


Backfire wrote:
and extinction of the Ewok.


Well, maybe the sequel trash is good for something after all.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 18:58:19


Post by: Grey Templar


Well, we know that Palpatine unlocked the secret to eternal life. Its possible that that includes the ability to resurrect himself from a physical death. Possibly via becoming a Force Ghost(which dark siders normally can't become), and as Force Ghosts can actually interact with the physical world as shown by Yoda in TLJ, he could rebuild a body to be reborn into. Either by reforming his old body or possessing the body of someone else.

I think the spirit of Palpatine become a recurring villain would be interesting. A twisted person that has transcended the mortal plane and become an eldritch being that propagates evil across the galaxy.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 19:02:15


Post by: epronovost


 Peregrine wrote:
Backfire wrote:
and extinction of the Ewok.


Well, maybe the sequel trash is good for something after all.


But the Ewok were so cute, I loved them as a kid. They were both hilarious and adorable (and not racist like Jar-Jar, or the Commerce Guild and Banking Federation). I say bring the Ewok back. If a portion of the movie is on Endor (which seems to be the case), they should make an appearence and no, they shoudn't be killed to satisfy the urges of a bunch of edgy late tweens. I could totally see general Hux geting beaten by Ewok. It would be fitting considering the fact he's a worm in uniform.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 19:02:38


Post by: Backfire


 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.


I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 21:25:41


Post by: Vulcan


Backfire wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.


I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.


Like the entire Disney trilogy hasn't made a point of demeaning the original trilogy...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 21:47:54


Post by: SamusDrake


I have to say the whole mystery around Snoke, Kylo and Rey has really played out like the David S Pumpkins sketch on SNL.

"Yes but - WHO are you? Were you part of the 80s cartoon shows? Droids or Ewoks maybe? Or Caravan of Courage?"

"I'm Snoke! And I'm my own THANG!!!!"

"And Kylo and Rey?"

"Are part of IT!"

...then Snoke gets whacked....

"So...its just Kylo and Rey now?"

"Ready or not, here - we - DOUBLE TEAM!"


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:06:08


Post by: Elbows


Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things, I fully expect Rey to encounter the Emperor in the ruins of the Death Star and beat him with her force powers.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:33:56


Post by: epronovost


 Elbows wrote:
Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things.


That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.

I wonder if we will be treated to a Luke's ghost vs Palpatine ghost encouter though. That could be pretty damn cool.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:46:01


Post by: Riquende


I expect it to go like the Moon Knight meme.

Rey: Hey Palpatine you (massive) nerd! Where's my money?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:52:47


Post by: Voss


Both Han and Luke fail... a lot, throughout the entire run of the original trilogy. That keeps them out of Mary Sue territory.
Vader is a fairly crippled wreck of a machine, a long way from his prime (and 'most powerful' is nowhere in the OT). And all Luke can really do is stand while being tested by Vader and then flee from him. There isn't any contest on who's winning in Cloud City.
And stormtroopers are a really low bar of measurement.


Rey is introduced as abandoned orphan on a desert planet who is routinely shorted on food rations. She has no particular reason to be anything but a half-starved, uneducated wreck of a person.

Backfire wrote:


I really hope they're not doing another treasure hunt (though I agree teaser slightly hints to that direction). They just concluded one, and also, it would be hella-lame if all the military and political power of the First Order they have gathered is suddenly negated because of some mystical doohickey. You can't handwave things away.

They don't have much choice in that regard. The Resisty down to a dozen or two idiots and a smuggling ship. The First Order apparently has nigh-infinite resources and manpower, that can also stay completely hidden from the galactic government and yet simultaneously everyone introduced on every planet (in TFA and TLJ) knows that it is a threat. It was established as a handwave, and lazy storytelling: The bad people are an overwhelming threat, and only the magic of <MacGuffin> or <Bloodline> will save us all in approximately 2 hours and 15 minutes of run time.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:53:00


Post by: warboss


Meh. The Last Jedi was the straw that broke my Star Wars interest's back after years of waning interest in my part. After spending upwards of hundreds most years on Star Wars stuff (novels, video games, physical media, movie releases, tabletop and rpg games, apparel, tchotckies, etc) for decades, I spent $5 last year to see Solo on discount night weeks after it premiered and that's it for 2018. This trailer hasn't improved that outlook.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:56:01


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


Nah, I disagree with the above poster who thinks Luke was a Mary sue.

In New Hope, he gets into a pub brawl, and only avoids a beating because of Alec Guiness.

His plan in the Death Star was a shambles, hence why they end up in a rubbish bin. His skill at flying is explained by messing around with flying in Beggar's valet, or whatever th feth it's called

He uses the force to blow up the Death Star. I can buy that.

In Empire, a polar bear thing chucks him in the freezer for later. He gets shot down by one of those walker things, thinks Yoda is a village idiot when they first meet, crashes his X-wing in a swamp, gets a doing from Vader, and ends up hanging off a TV aerial.

In Jedi, his plan for Jabba's palace almost goes up in smoke, gets ridiculed by Jabba who's immune to Jedi mind tricks, almost ends up as a tooth pick for that pit monster, and gets 50,000 volts from Palpatine.

He struggles. He makes mistakes, he learns.

Luke, in terms of character development, is 1000 times the charcter Rey is.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 22:57:47


Post by: Riquende


epronovost wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things.


Spoiler:
That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.

I wonder if we will be treated to a Luke's ghost vs Palpatine ghost encouter though. That could be pretty damn cool.


You're exactly right.around the 13th word. You don't understand, and all the other words reinforce that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Let's not forget that the only way he can 'beat' Vader is to give in to his anger, which is what will see him defeated by Palpatine. Anyone who says Luke "was capable of defeating Vader soundly" doesn't understand the theme of the films at all and I'm fairly embarrassed for them that they said that in a thread on Star Wars on a public forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 warboss wrote:
Meh. The Last Jedi was the straw that broke my Star Wars interest's back after years of waning interest in my part. After spending upwards of hundreds most years on Star Wars stuff (novels, video games, physical media, movie releases, tabletop and rpg games, apparel, tchotckies, etc) for decades, I spent $5 last year to see Solo on discount night weeks after it premiered and that's it for 2018. This trailer hasn't improved that outlook.


Alienating our paying customer base...

This how we win Finn!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:19:05


Post by: Elbows


epronovost wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Actually thinking on it a bit...with the way the new trilogy has been Mary-Sueing the feth out of things.


That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.

I wonder if we will be treated to a Luke's ghost vs Palpatine ghost encouter though. That could be pretty damn cool.


I'm not a huge Star Wars nut, but...did you actually watch the original trilogy?

As mentioned above...Luke more less fails almost throughout the entire first trilogy. What part of "hold his own against Vader" did you see in the film? You mean when he's swinging wildly while having things hurled at him...and subsequently gets his hand cut off and thrown into the void? Is that your definition of holding your own against Darth Vader? When does he have amazing exploits of flying in the first trilogy? They mention he's a good bush pilot, but he struggles to shoot down TIE fighters when aboard the Millenium Falcon...he gets shot down over Hoth...and he's never seen blitzing through dozens of TIE fighters with ease. As mentioned above he straight up crashes his X-Wing at Yoda's. He doesn't outshoot Storm Troopers either...he shoots at them randomly with little to no practice or relish and isn't seen blasting tons of Storm Troopers into pieces. If anything they're running and fleeing shooting Storm Troopers through most of the films.

He even plays the part of Jedi master and then is tricked into falling into a trap at Jaba's where he almost gets killed. He is actually shown training...and failing...a lot. H'e shown getting his ass shot by droids. He's shown failing to raise his X-Wing. He's shown having human flaws such as impatience and incredulity. He's even shown failing when facing the Emperor despite being told he's going to give into his hatred etc.

And all this, in what is more or less a semi-campy space action film. Are you seeing a trend? A normal human who actually has faults...actually has to train to do things...actually fails more than he succeeds. He isn't the strongest force user (the Emperor kicks the gak out of him with lightning, etc.).

By comparison...yes...Rey is 100% a Mary Sue.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:21:49


Post by: epronovost


 Riquende wrote:
Let's not forget that the only way he can 'beat' Vader is to give in to his anger, which is what will see him defeated by Palpatine. Anyone who says Luke "was capable of defeating Vader soundly" doesn't understand the theme of the films at all and I'm fairly embarrassed for them that they said that in a thread on Star Wars on a public forum.


Did you watch the fight in RotJ lately? Luke handles Vader pretty fine and even kicks him down a few stairs and nimbly dodges all his blows all the while trrying to talk him out of fighting against him. The only time Vader seem to gain an advantage is when he catches him by surprise by throwing his lightsaber and fails to capitalise on it since Luke, who doesn't want to fight him, evades him and hide. Then he gets momentarily angry and beats him down with ease in about 15-20 seconds before recovering his cool and calling off the Emperor on his mind game (very stupidly though). Luke was more then capable of handling Vader, but didn't even wanted to fight him in the first place. On Bespin, he evades being frozen and kicks Vader down a shaft. He also clips him on the shoulder right before he gets his hand cut. Vader had to work a bit to beat him. It's even shown when he changes his sword stance from one handed to two handed and when he stops just mouthing him off like in the fist exchange.

As for Rey's failure, she got captured twice, was manipulated by both Kylo and Snoke, was smacked a little bit by Snoke and saved by her enemy. She also failed to save Kylo from himself (so far). She recovered from all of these setbacks, but so did Luke whose biggest setback was losing a hand against Vader and it was solved and this potential problem was solved the very next scene when he ot a perfect prostetic..


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:27:42


Post by: Lance845


The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends, immediately get a robot hand to replace his old one, learn new vital information and have nothing really bad happen to him. He comes back in Jedi and within the first 20 minutes fixes the only thing he lost in Empire.

Lukes a Mary Sue because even his negative bad traits are actually positive good traits within the story and then everything works out for him.

Mary Sue is 1) a bs term that has a broad vague meaning that basically means "A character I don't like because..."

and 2) not just a character that always wins but more importantly a character that never really looses.


So what characters are Mary Sues?

fething everyone. Batman, superman, captain america, ironman, ant man, luke skywalker, laura croft, han solo. Name a protagonist. They are a Mary Sue by the broad and dumb definitions of the term.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:35:16


Post by: Voss


 Lance845 wrote:
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends,

Bzzt!

Gonna stop you right there. Luke doesn't save _any_ of his friends. *He* has to get saved by Leia and Lando (the actual person that saves Leia and Chewie). Han is still carted off successfully, and 3PO is shot to bits long before Luke even manages to turn up... after being explicitly told he's going to ruin things by going at all.

And even after everything is over, they're all going to get captured again because of Hyperdrive shenanigans until R2 saves them all.



Mary Sue actually has a very specific meaning. I don't think Rey really qualifies (mostly because Johnson made her just as irrelevant as everyone else in terms of the non-existent plot), but in TFA she's a lot closer than Luke is, literally materializing new powers out of the ether, and a skillset that's pretty contrary to the circumstances she grew up in.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:40:08


Post by: Lance845


Voss wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends,

Bzzt!

Gonna stop you right there. Luke doesn't save _any_ of his friends. *He* has to get saved by Leia and Lando (the actual person that saves Leia and Chewie). Han is still carted off successfully, and 3PO is shot to bits long before Luke even manages to turn up... after being explicitly told he's going to ruin things by going at all.

And even after everything is over, they're all going to get captured again because of Hyperdrive shenanigans until R2 saves them all.


Incorrect, if Luke didn't show up to cloud city the events would have unfolded differently with Vader never taking his eyes and hands off all his friends. The only reason his friends get the opportunity to save Luke is because Luke is there to distract Vader. Otherwise it would have been Han, Chewie, Leia, and the broken 3PO having to face Vader. A situation they would have walked away from loosing significantly more than a hand that instantly gets replaced.

Yeah, he gets told hes going to ruin things if he goes. What exaclty got ruined in the end? Luke failed upwards again!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:46:49


Post by: Lance845


Voss wrote:

Mary Sue actually has a very specific meaning. I don't think Rey really qualifies (mostly because Johnson made her just as irrelevant as everyone else in terms of the non-existent plot), but in TFA she's a lot closer than Luke is, literally materializing new powers out of the ether, and a skillset that's pretty contrary to the circumstances she grew up in.


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MARYSUE


Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.

TV Tropes doesn't get to set what the term means; the best we can do is capture the way it is used. Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time (as opposed to any particular traits), the name was quickly adopted by the Star Trek fanfiction community. Its original meaning mostly held that it was an Always Female Author Avatar, regardless of character role or perceived quality. Often, the characters would get in a relationship with either Kirk or Spock, turn out to have a familial bond with a crew member, be a Half-Human Hybrid masquerading as a human, and die in a graceful, beautiful way to reinforce that the character was Too Good for This Sinful Earth. (Or space, as the case may be.)

Even back then, there wasn't a total consensus on what was or wasn't Mary Sue, since it's not always immediately obvious which character is an Author Avatar. As this essay reveals, suspiciously Mary Sue-like characters were noted in subscriber-submitted articles for 19th-century childrens' magazines, making this trope Older Than You Think.

The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series. (See Common Mary Sue Traits for more detail on any of these cliches.)

In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

Over time, a male variant started to see use. Marty Stu (also known as Gary Stu, for those who prefer rhyme to alliteration) wasn't really that much different from Mary. Also an Author Avatar, it usually had implications of being a male crew member that tended to completely outshine established canon members in their roles and often become the best starship captain, ever. See The Ace. Since the female characters of Star Trek were all in secondary roles at best, the relationship angle was generally disregarded as being any sort of qualifier. Because of the not-entirely-unjustified perception that Most Fanfic Writers Are Girls, Marty Stu didn't really catch on for a long time.

Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren't explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode "The Empath"), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.

Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from Flame Bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much Internet Backdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.

These last two paragraphs are why it's so hard to really nail down a definition of "Mary Sue": the term has started to be used in a much wider context, and to mean much wider things, than it once did, and there's no way to figure out which of those characteristics are necessary and sufficient to define a Mary Sue.

Some of the controversies:

Do Sues appear only in fanfic, or are Canon Sues allowed?
Can you have a male Sue?
Are all Author Avatars Sues, even if they're well-written, realistic, and don't take over the story — and, are all Sues necessarily stand-ins for the author?
Is the most important part how the author de-protagonist-izes every other character in the name of making the Sue seem even more awesome?
If you have an impossibly competent character with a cool back story and an idealized personality, and they manage to be likable to most of the audience, are they still a Mary Sue, or does Suedom depend on the character being disliked because of their obnoxious perfection?



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/13 23:57:39


Post by: Backfire


Voss wrote:

Mary Sue actually has a very specific meaning. I don't think Rey really qualifies (mostly because Johnson made her just as irrelevant as everyone else in terms of the non-existent plot), but in TFA she's a lot closer than Luke is, literally materializing new powers out of the ether, and a skillset that's pretty contrary to the circumstances she grew up in.


Problem with Rey is that she gets her Force powers to extremely high level with no foreboding at all. Luke had to learn about Force three movies before he got his skills to decent level. Even Anakin had better foreboding for his powers. Other than that, Rey is hardly very Mary Sue.

Mary Sue is a term which is abused a LOT and most people don't actually understand what it refers to. Just because someone is overpowered and dominant in storylines doesn't mean she is a Mary Sue (or Marty Sue). Harry Potter is incredibly overpowered and dominant character, yet few people would say he is a Mary Sue (though they might if he was a girl, I suppose). Mary Sue is someone whose abilities define her/him because the person who came up with the character wishes to be her - and who doesn't want to be awesome in every respect?

Rey is skilled fighter, mechanic and pilot, but those are perfectly believable traits for someone who grew up in those conditions. Luke was too, and nobody questioned that. A farm kid on frontier planet would know how to shoot. (Rey can't, btw. I guess she could never afford a gun). Beyond that, Rey comes across as kinda dumb and naive, and those are very definitely NOT Mary Sue traits. Mary Sues always outsmart everyone, because that is cool. No wish-fulfillment writer would ever come up with a character like Rey.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 01:13:43


Post by: epronovost


Backfire wrote:

No wish-fulfillment writer would ever come up with a character like Rey.


In my opinion, hte trait that makes Rey a superhero-like character more than a "Mary Sue" is the fact she's a pleaser. She seeks the approbation, support and affection of parental figures (Leia, Luke, Han, even Kylo to a certain point). In my opinion, a "Mary Sue" isn't just an over skilled character with no real weakness that completely overshadow the rest of the cast (which Rey doesn't thanks to Poe for example), it's also a character that doesn't seem to "need" anyone. They are independant, clever and confident. Rey, while confident and somewhat clever (or at least resourcefull), isn't independant.

PS: I do agree that Mary Sue is an abused term.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 05:57:11


Post by: Grey Templar


Rey doesn't fit the technical definition of Mary Sue. She is however a very flat and poorly developed character. Same goes for really all of the new characters actually. No effort was made into fleshing them out or making them make sense.

In the original trilogy, we were given plenty of scenes where the different characters interacted with each other. Like when Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3P0 were all stuck on the Falcon in the asteroid field trying to fix the hyperdrive. We got Leia and Han working through their sexual tension, and 3P0s comical interruption. We got 3P0 talking to the hyperdrive and talking with Han and Chewie about it. Or when everybody was visiting Luke in the hospital.

No scenes like that exist in the new movies. We never get downtime scenes with the characters doing some mundane tasks while they just talk and develop their own character and relationships. Everything happens in action scenes.

Fynn's character in general is the worst character of them all though. He makes no sense in the universe. He's supposed to be a brainwashed child soldier. However, somehow he made it through at least a decade of indoctrination without the First Order discovering he was a sniveling coward. Except for some reason he will occasionally have moments of uncharacteristic heroism that a cowardly character like him should never have, at least not without some lengthy character development. If the First Order is really taking children and turning them into soldiers, they almost certainly have them bloody their hands early. Fynn should have killed at least a few people before getting sent into the actual front lines.

If they wanted a "bad guy who developed morals" character they should have instead made him a grizzled Storm Trooper officer, who only flips sides after being ordered to execute the civilians at the beginning of the movie. This also conveniently gives a good reason for him to know so much about the First Order's sensitive areas, like the power relay on Star Killer Base or the hyperspace tracking device on Snoke's ship. A janitor knowing all of those things makes ZERO sense.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 06:27:29


Post by: LordofHats


 Grey Templar wrote:
Rey doesn't fit the technical definition of Mary Sue. She is however a very flat and poorly developed character. Same goes for really all of the new characters actually. No effort was made into fleshing them out or making them make sense.


Yes, something that I think was passable in TFA, but should have been resolved in TLJ.

But instead of expanding on the new cast, TLJ;

1) gave Fin a random love interest no one asked for or cared about mixed with a character arc that seems to just be a rehash of the same arc he did in the last movie (that he apparently didn't stick to)
2) confused Poe all over the place with a really shoddily designed arc that mostly made me angry at how stupid and pointless it was, but hey there's a gaudy lesson about "hope" in there so yey /sarcasm
3) spent most of Rey's screen time developing Kylo's character instead (what?) with the result being Kylo reaching maximum woobie angst lord who desperately needed child therapy (so basically prequel's Anakin jesus why are we rehashing prequel's Anakin?)


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 06:33:28


Post by: Grey Templar


Meh, Poe's arc could be excused for how bad it was if it wasn't actually the most coherent one. They could have had a fairly standard "Unconventional hero defies orders to save the day" and actually done an ok job with it, but they had to go and subvert all the tropes.

His arc was the closest to being a good one, which makes it all the more painful that it was botched


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 08:32:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Hmmm.

What wonder if Rey has had a chance to train new Jedi or not?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 08:52:30


Post by: Mr Morden


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmmm.

What wonder if Rey has had a chance to train new Jedi or not?


Well they have had 6 years or something - maybe one of those slave kids they left in favour of space horses will turn up and ask her for guidanace.

Although that would ask why isn't the First Alliance tracking them down to either train or kill.

These require an actual coherent plot and story so unlikely.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 09:48:44


Post by: tneva82


Backfire wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.


I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.


All those reasons sounds exactly why disney would do it. 7 and 8 were already copies of previous movies so why not copy villain to the 9th as well to rework of original trilogy


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 11:17:15


Post by: Backfire


tneva82 wrote:
Backfire wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.


I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.


All those reasons sounds exactly why disney would do it. 7 and 8 were already copies of previous movies so why not copy villain to the 9th as well to rework of original trilogy


But that's not copying the villain, that's using the same villain. Disney wants to set up a new cast of heroes and villains, and employ the the old ones for fan service and giving a rub for new cast. And it's a right idea, even if it isn't working quite to the extent they hoped. "Palpatine's behind it all" is counterproductive for that goal, an admission that they can't come up with anything good themselves.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 11:22:22


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Is Palpatine behind it all?

We know from Disney’s other offerings, they do like a misleading trailer. Either scenes subtly different, or outright misdirection. Remember when ‘fans’ freaked out that Finn wasn’t the heir to the Jedi? And how we didn’t see Rey wield a lightsaber in the promos? Or even the toys?

Who knows what role Palpatine has in this? Or in what capacity? It could be a relatively cameo appearance. Could be a clone, the original or just a Force Spirit.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 12:55:52


Post by: Dark Apostle 666


Or even a recorded hologram - like an equivalent of the Jedi "sacred texts", but for Kylo Ren to go after.
After all, Palpatine has appeared in hologram form before, so maybe he made some recordings that are still kicking around on the death star?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 13:01:33


Post by: Backfire


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is Palpatine behind it all?

We know from Disney’s other offerings, they do like a misleading trailer. Either scenes subtly different, or outright misdirection. Remember when ‘fans’ freaked out that Finn wasn’t the heir to the Jedi? And how we didn’t see Rey wield a lightsaber in the promos? Or even the toys?

Who knows what role Palpatine has in this? Or in what capacity? It could be a relatively cameo appearance. Could be a clone, the original or just a Force Spirit.


Yes, I talked about all those possibilities earlier. I was not saying that Palpatine showing up in Ep IX is a bad idea, I only said that him showing up in the role of main villain of the movie is a bad idea and something they are unlikely to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Rey doesn't fit the technical definition of Mary Sue. She is however a very flat and poorly developed character. Same goes for really all of the new characters actually. No effort was made into fleshing them out or making them make sense.

In the original trilogy, we were given plenty of scenes where the different characters interacted with each other. Like when Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3P0 were all stuck on the Falcon in the asteroid field trying to fix the hyperdrive. We got Leia and Han working through their sexual tension, and 3P0s comical interruption. We got 3P0 talking to the hyperdrive and talking with Han and Chewie about it. Or when everybody was visiting Luke in the hospital.

No scenes like that exist in the new movies. We never get downtime scenes with the characters doing some mundane tasks while they just talk and develop their own character and relationships. Everything happens in action scenes.


I feel this is a general trend where technological progress has worked against the 'Art' itself. In the past, filming special effects and action scenes was hard and expensive so they were used sparingly. Nowadays there are much less limitations so producers and directors are tempted to throw as much junk at viewers as possible. The new Star Trek movies are really perfect example of this.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Fynn's character in general is the worst character of them all though. He makes no sense in the universe. He's supposed to be a brainwashed child soldier. However, somehow he made it through at least a decade of indoctrination without the First Order discovering he was a sniveling coward. Except for some reason he will occasionally have moments of uncharacteristic heroism that a cowardly character like him should never have, at least not without some lengthy character development. If the First Order is really taking children and turning them into soldiers, they almost certainly have them bloody their hands early. Fynn should have killed at least a few people before getting sent into the actual front lines.


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 13:53:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There’s also these



Basically messenger droids that Palpatine employed as part of his ‘wot if I get ded?’ Contingency planning. And said plan lead to The First Order.

So we could well have Palpatine sort-of masterminding things from beyond the grave, without actually being Palpatine.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 13:57:07


Post by: Yodhrin


Backfire wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is Palpatine behind it all?

We know from Disney’s other offerings, they do like a misleading trailer. Either scenes subtly different, or outright misdirection. Remember when ‘fans’ freaked out that Finn wasn’t the heir to the Jedi? And how we didn’t see Rey wield a lightsaber in the promos? Or even the toys?

Who knows what role Palpatine has in this? Or in what capacity? It could be a relatively cameo appearance. Could be a clone, the original or just a Force Spirit.


Yes, I talked about all those possibilities earlier. I was not saying that Palpatine showing up in Ep IX is a bad idea, I only said that him showing up in the role of main villain of the movie is a bad idea and something they are unlikely to do.


The problem they have is who else is going to be the big bad? Snoke is deadzo. Kylo is still a conflicted whiny manbaby. TLJ turned Hux into a comic relief character who gets prank called by the cool kids and thrown around like a ragdoll by force users. Johnson has left the final movie without a clear main villain from the present trilogy's characters, so the only choices they really have are A: throw away all of Kylo's character development such as it is, B: arse-pull an entirely new villain which is mental for the final movie in a trilogy that's supposed to be the cap-piece on a nine movie saga, or C: tap another baddie character from the previous movies who's already had all the necessary character and worldbuilding work done and they just have to come up with a justification for them being there.

In the case of C, Vader is dead and redeemed, Maul is dead and was a rage-combat guy, Dooku is dead and wasn't hugely interesting, and the Emperor is dead but was a phenomenally powerful Sith sorcerer who studied under a master who's sole obsession was mastering the Living Force so as to avoid death(including ways to survive the destruction of one's original body), and was also the main baddie of both previous trilogies. It's less that making Palpatine the main villain of the movie is a good idea, and more that making him the main villain is the best out of all the bad-to-mediocre options they have available, since it could at least be sold as part of the whole "cyclical story" thing, lets them have the Star Wars: TNG crew be the ones to finally defeat the big bad that neither the Jedi nor Luke could defeat permanently, and can be vaguely justified using stuff that's already part of Palpy's canon history.

That said, all of that is too obvious, and we are talking about JJ here. I can absolutely see him using the tease of Palpatine to get us all speculating along these lines and then in the film it turns out to be a trivial "side mission" scene or two featuring Palpatine's ghost, and the actual villain is either a complete non sequitur or he'll just handwave Kylo as the baddie by making the necessary changes "off screen" during the time jump.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 15:23:42


Post by: LunarSol


I'd rather not sit through hours of backpedaling, which is why the things that worry me most in the trailer are Rey holding Anakin's saber and Kylo's helmet getting repaired.

There's not a lot to pull from the trailer in general beyond the Palpatine teaser. I'm not super exciting about the notion (backpedaling) but it does give them the opportunity to really do something with the idea of falling to the Dark Side. It's something I've always felt has been treated differently in expanded media than anyone talks about it in the films. Yoda and even Vader express a certain sense of subjugation and loss of self to the dark side, but we always see it as more of a choice of powers to play with.

TFA and TLJ both toy with the idea of there being something more behind it, with TLJ's scene with Snoke probably doing the best job of showing a sense of real control over others through the Dark Side (even if it gets him killed). If they can do something more with that, even through Palpatine.... it might be worth it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 16:50:38


Post by: Haighus


Backfire wrote:


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

His military skills are his main selling point, so they should've built upon them more in TLJ. I was under the impression Finn's backstory had him graduating with excellent markes, and it is only upon his first combat mission that he realises he doesn't want this.

Based on that, with a bit of polishing, Finn should be an effective soldier when fighting for a cause he believes in. They should've given him some off-screen character development between the films, and had him as part of a Resistance commando team during TLJ- that would've given him a role distinct from Poe the pilot and Rey the force user.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 18:08:33


Post by: LordofHats


*Sees Palestine masterminding beyond death tease*

Seriously?

*remembers every god awful plot line that already did this and realizes I’ve already seen this story and hated it*

You know I never thought I’d reach this point. Even though I’ve gone from ambivalent to seeing TLJ as a god awful film on par with the Prequels and TFA being somewhat mediocre, I assumed I’d still see this movie. It’s Star Wars who doesn’t go to see Star Wars?

But now, thinking about how this very concept makes me groan and want to just walk away... yeah. I’m out. Maybe I’ll catch it when it hits FX in 3 years.

*calmly leaves the room*


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 18:44:11


Post by: LunarSol


 Haighus wrote:
Backfire wrote:


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

His military skills are his main selling point, so they should've built upon them more in TLJ. I was under the impression Finn's backstory had him graduating with excellent markes, and it is only upon his first combat mission that he realises he doesn't want this.

Based on that, with a bit of polishing, Finn should be an effective soldier when fighting for a cause he believes in. They should've given him some off-screen character development between the films, and had him as part of a Resistance commando team during TLJ- that would've given him a role distinct from Poe the pilot and Rey the force user.


Except he doesn't have military skills. In the first film we find out he was a janitor who failed his first combat mission.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 18:58:22


Post by: Haighus


 LunarSol wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
Backfire wrote:


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

His military skills are his main selling point, so they should've built upon them more in TLJ. I was under the impression Finn's backstory had him graduating with excellent markes, and it is only upon his first combat mission that he realises he doesn't want this.

Based on that, with a bit of polishing, Finn should be an effective soldier when fighting for a cause he believes in. They should've given him some off-screen character development between the films, and had him as part of a Resistance commando team during TLJ- that would've given him a role distinct from Poe the pilot and Rey the force user.


Except he doesn't have military skills. In the first film we find out he was a janitor who failed his first combat mission.

He is supposed to have had top/very good marks whilst training, from what I've been told about the background for Finn (not read it personally). His stint as a "janitor" is likely as some kind of punishment, or just typical army duties for keeping idle hands busy and maintaining discipline.

The fact his film appearances don't match his supposed background is a failing of the films. Him failing on his first mission isn't indicative of poor combat skills though- he baulked at killing civilians.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 19:32:43


Post by: LunarSol


 Haighus wrote:

The fact his film appearances don't match his supposed background is a failing of the films. Him failing on his first mission isn't indicative of poor combat skills though- he baulked at killing civilians.


Yeah, I realize. Certainly a different character if he was a decorated slaughterer of innocents after all. The point though, is he really didn't have any military or combat experience or at least, nothing exceptional to offer to the role.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 19:45:46


Post by: Grimskul


 LordofHats wrote:
*Sees Palestine masterminding beyond death tease*

Seriously?


Definitely one of the more interesting typos, I was wondering if I wandered into the wrong thread about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict xD. I didn't realize the new trilogy was a metaphor for the Palestinian Resistance against the First Israeli Order. I demand a 2 state solution! A Palpatine-Skywalker multi-adherent Force government!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 20:01:18


Post by: Kilkrazy


For God's sake let it be over!

Please, please, in the name of all humanity let Star Wars die!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 20:03:49


Post by: Grimskul


 Kilkrazy wrote:
For God's sake let it be over!

Please, please, in the name of all humanity let Star Wars die!


Under the House of Mouse, Star Wars will be back and in greater numbers!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 20:09:46


Post by: Elemental


epronovost wrote:
That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.


I don't want to throw more fuel on this fire, I may regret posting this, and I consider "Mary Sue" to be a uselessly overused and vague term, but here's my take:

Luke has scenes where he fails, or he looks uncool. He very much feels like part of a team--he has moments where he looks cool, but he also has moments where he, critically, steps out the spotlight so that other characters can look cool. Han's coolest moment in Ep4 is when he swoops out of nowhere to save a helpless Luke from Vader. With Rey, she's always the most important thing in any scene she's in, to the point where it feels like she barely needs the rest of the cast to be there. I don't hate her, but I think the main reason I don't find her that interesting is that most of the time, no character sharing a scene with Rey is ever allowed to be cooler than her.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 20:10:37


Post by: LordofHats


 Grimskul wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
*Sees Palestine masterminding beyond death tease*

Seriously?


Definitely one of the more interesting typos, I was wondering if I wandered into the wrong thread about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict xD. I didn't realize the new trilogy was a metaphor for the Palestinian Resistance against the First Israeli Order. I demand a 2 state solution! A Palpatine-Skywalker multi-adherent Force government!


What?

Oh XD

Ducking autocorrect man


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 21:25:39


Post by: SamusDrake


I'm disappointed theres no more Phasma - or so mr Boyega tells us. That sucks. Its true, Phasma was thrown in a trash compactor in TFA but did at least come back in giant chicken fashion in TLJ - which made that film instantly awesome. Seriously, this sequel trilogy is the story of Finn and his boot-camp-bully, and doing the right thing - standing up to bullies and refusing to do unsavory acts!

When DJ( good grief ) reveals someone is selling weapons to both sides of the conflict - that is soooooo Darth Sidious' calling card! Could Snoke have been just another Count Dooku? Was it by Sidious' hand that he clouded Snokes foresight when he got the chop? Could it have been Sidious who clouded Luke's judgement by pushing him to kill Kylo? Ol' Ian has been playing'em like fiddles!

Could someone have been responsible for Finn deciding to leave the First Order?

And yet...the biggest question is...who are the Porgs? WHO are they REALLY? Inquiring minds need to know...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/14 23:20:56


Post by: Vulcan


epronovost wrote:
 Riquende wrote:
Let's not forget that the only way he can 'beat' Vader is to give in to his anger, which is what will see him defeated by Palpatine. Anyone who says Luke "was capable of defeating Vader soundly" doesn't understand the theme of the films at all and I'm fairly embarrassed for them that they said that in a thread on Star Wars on a public forum.


Did you watch the fight in RotJ lately? Luke handles Vader pretty fine and even kicks him down a few stairs and nimbly dodges all his blows all the while trrying to talk him out of fighting against him. The only time Vader seem to gain an advantage is when he catches him by surprise by throwing his lightsaber and fails to capitalise on it since Luke, who doesn't want to fight him, evades him and hide. Then he gets momentarily angry and beats him down with ease in about 15-20 seconds before recovering his cool and calling off the Emperor on his mind game (very stupidly though). Luke was more then capable of handling Vader, but didn't even wanted to fight him in the first place. On Bespin, he evades being frozen and kicks Vader down a shaft. He also clips him on the shoulder right before he gets his hand cut. Vader had to work a bit to beat him. It's even shown when he changes his sword stance from one handed to two handed and when he stops just mouthing him off like in the fist exchange.

As for Rey's failure, she got captured twice, was manipulated by both Kylo and Snoke, was smacked a little bit by Snoke and saved by her enemy. She also failed to save Kylo from himself (so far). She recovered from all of these setbacks, but so did Luke whose biggest setback was losing a hand against Vader and it was solved and this potential problem was solved the very next scene when he ot a perfect prostetic..


I'll grant you that Luke handles Vader pretty roughly... at the end of the third movie, after getting (granted, a minimum) training and getting beaten once.

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.

Now which one is a Mary Sue again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends, immediately get a robot hand to replace his old one, learn new vital information and have nothing really bad happen to him. He comes back in Jedi and within the first 20 minutes fixes the only thing he lost in Empire.


Wait... Just WHO does he save in ESB? As I recall they all saved themselves (except for Han, of course) and had to go back and save LUKE. This almost costs them their own escape; had Vader just let the Executor's gunnery crew have at the Millennium Falcon the 'saga' ends right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backfire wrote:
"Palpatine's behind it all" is counterproductive for that goal, an admission that they can't come up with anything good themselves.


Which would be uncommonly honest of them at this point.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 07:04:33


Post by: tneva82


 Kilkrazy wrote:
For God's sake let it be over!

Please, please, in the name of all humanity let Star Wars die!


Naah disney will keep milking money with it. Let's bet when SW X-XII trilogy is announced

(and it's not like trailer even called The end...)


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 10:13:14


Post by: SamusDrake


Got a good feeling about The Mandalorian. It feels a bit like one of the cartoon series come to life...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 12:39:46


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Vulcan wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends, immediately get a robot hand to replace his old one, learn new vital information and have nothing really bad happen to him. He comes back in Jedi and within the first 20 minutes fixes the only thing he lost in Empire.


Wait... Just WHO does he save in ESB? As I recall they all saved themselves (except for Han, of course) and had to go back and save LUKE. This almost costs them their own escape; had Vader just let the Executor's gunnery crew have at the Millennium Falcon the 'saga' ends right there.


Well, he did bring R2-D2 along, who does actually save people (Hyperdrive fix), so there is that.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 13:19:16


Post by: Galef


Speaking of R2, did I miss him in the Trailer, or is he just not in it?
Seems odd to not have him in it. Does JJ hate R2 or something?

Anyway. I have a theory about Snoke and Palps.
Well, mostly Snoke. I think he mind-manipulated more than just Kylo & Rey.
I think he subtly manipulated Ben Solo into the darkside, and indirectly tricked Luke into thinking his thoughts we much darker than they were, potentially even giving Luke just a slight mental nudge to ignite his saber in front of Ben.

That would better explain why Luke, the optimistic hero from the OT who turned Space Hitler back to the light, would even contemplate killing Ben for his dark thoughts.
Next, I think Snoke planted the images of Kylo and Rey in each others thoughts when they "touched" hands.
He showed Ben coming back to the light to Rey, because that would draw her to him. And he showed Rey's "parentage" to Kylo because that is the ideal "revelation" that Kylo could use to turn Rey to join him.

But that doesn't make it true. Rey can still be a Skywalker who was left in the care of the people she "remembers" as her parents that sold her to Unkar Plutt.

I'm not sure how Palpatine fits into all this, but I can easily see him working behind the scenes to keep the galaxy divided until he can resurrect himself. But I am sure there is a connection between him and Snoke.

EDIT: Side observation about the Trailer: Several things symbolically show this will NOT be like TLJ. TLJ "killed the past" in many ways including physically destroying Kylo's mask and the Skywalker light saber. Both of which are repaired in RoS. Add on the "thousands of generations of Jedi knowledge" and the return of Palpatine and I think we can safely assume RoS will NOT be like TLJ.

And JJ has also confirmed "All our heroes will be together on a single quest" rather then split up doing other stuff.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 13:58:24


Post by: LunarSol


 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 14:12:39


Post by: Galef


 LunarSol wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.
Agreed. Kylo may well be DYING at that point in TFA, yet his power with the darkside keeps him going.
Rey is also tapping into the force for the first time and therefore has less control over it, therefore IT has control over her.

So from this point of view, Rey did NOT beat Kylo in TFA, the FORCE beat a near dead Kylo.
But nevertheless, I don't feel the story NEEDS them to have any sort of rematch. Rey and Ben solo will likely just need to put down Palpatine for good.

In 40K terms, they need to destroy his soul the way the Emprah did to Horus.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 14:43:25


Post by: Captain Joystick


Personally, I would be just fine if they found Palpatine lying in a heap on some ruined corridor of the Death Star debris, his body broken and unable to move, but kept alive through the the dark side, powered by nothing but his hate and anger even as his body decays.

 Galef wrote:
Several things symbolically show this will NOT be like TLJ. TLJ "killed the past" in many ways including physically destroying Kylo's mask and the Skywalker light saber. Both of which are repaired in RoS.

Rey repairing the lightsaber is actually a direct payoff of TLJ's message: the lessons of the past have value but are build upon by successive generations. The lightsaber breaks under the strain of the battle of wills between Rey and Renn just as the underlying philosophy of the Jedi broke under the changing of the times as early as the prequel trilogy. Rey keeps the lightsaber and repairs it - adding something new to bring it back to its former glory - she keeps the texts and will do the same thing, figuratively, to them.

That raises questions about Kylo Renn though - is he the one ordering the helmet be repaired? Has he abandoned his nihilistic approach to the past in the wake of his defeat on Crayt or is he doing so unwillingly, needing the symbol of the past to project authority?



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 15:02:48


Post by: epronovost


 Vulcan wrote:
Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.

Now which one is a Mary Sue again?


Both, but Luke a little bit more so in my opinion. Kylo Ren is supposed to be less powerful then Vader. Kylo's training was incomplete when he fought Rey while Vader was a confirmed master by then. Luke was a farm boy with no real combat experience. Rey was a vicious fighter and a suvivalist before her adventure started proper while Luke was more of an "insert your wish fullfilment fantasy" incredibly blend and normal person. In the end both characters are idealised human being that serve as a vehicle for wish fullfilment fantasy for pre-adolescent audience making them "Mary Sue" in the broad sense of the term. But, also, both character are good in my opinion. While I don't think the new trilogy is as good or better then the original one, I do think that Rey is one of the better part of the trilogy. She's an interesting hero and competently acted. The biggest problem of the new trilogy is the scenario which either lacks innovation or is executed in a sloppy fashion.

On the precise subject of the duel between Rey and Kylo, you were offered no less then three reasons as to why she managed to beat Kylo Ren. He was unbalanced by the fact he just killed his father, he was shot in the stomac by Chewbaca and in slashed in the arm by Finn. Finally he also underestimated her and allowed himself to be caught by surprise. During the fight against the guard of Snoke, the two of them appeared closely matched in terms of talent and we can assume that both character will have grown in power from the first to the last movie of the trilogy unlike Vader whose threat level was always constent. The confrontation between Rey and Kylo passed the Force Awaken is much like the confrontation between Luke and Vader in Return of the Jedi. The suspence and the importance of their next encounter isn't based on will Rey be able to beat Kylo, that's not interesting, but on will Rey manage to bring back Kylo to the Light or will she have the moral strength to kill him, something she failed on both account in her last encounter.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 16:06:19


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.


They even underline the point by having a non-Force sensitive fight Kylo with a saber and hang with him for a while, something that would have been impossible based on past depictions of Jedi and Sith.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Personally, I would be just fine if they found Palpatine lying in a heap on some ruined corridor of the Death Star debris, his body broken and unable to move, but kept alive through the the dark side, powered by nothing but his hate and anger even as his body decays.

 Galef wrote:
Several things symbolically show this will NOT be like TLJ. TLJ "killed the past" in many ways including physically destroying Kylo's mask and the Skywalker light saber. Both of which are repaired in RoS.

Rey repairing the lightsaber is actually a direct payoff of TLJ's message: the lessons of the past have value but are build upon by successive generations. The lightsaber breaks under the strain of the battle of wills between Rey and Renn just as the underlying philosophy of the Jedi broke under the changing of the times as early as the prequel trilogy. Rey keeps the lightsaber and repairs it - adding something new to bring it back to its former glory - she keeps the texts and will do the same thing, figuratively, to them.


This.

That raises questions about Kylo Renn though - is he the one ordering the helmet be repaired? Has he abandoned his nihilistic approach to the past in the wake of his defeat on Crayt or is he doing so unwillingly, needing the symbol of the past to project authority?


I'm interested to know the meaning there myself.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 18:40:44


Post by: creeping-deth87


People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 19:02:23


Post by: epronovost


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films.


It's their only physical confrontation. There was no other in the next movie and the next one, if there is even another physical confrontation between the two, will not be determined a success or a failure based on who swings a lightsaber better. Even from a metacritical vision of the movie, hte idea that the hero wins the fight at the end is pretty much a given in this type of movie, the question is how and will the hero win the way he or she intends to win. Rey doesn't want to kill Ren, she wants to save him. Can she do that? In the TLJ she failed miserably at that.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 19:02:34


Post by: VictorVonTzeentch


 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.


They even underline the point by having a non-Force sensitive fight Kylo with a saber and hang with him for a while, something that would have been impossible based on past depictions of Jedi and Sith.


Going purely off the movies then yes, its the first time a non-force sensitive fights a Jedi or Sith and holds on for a while. However prior to that there was the Clone Wars. Then after that, they acknowledge that anyone can get that good with a Lightsaber if they practice.

Secondly, Fynn wasn't hanging with him, Kylo was playing with his food. Once his food got the lucky strike on him, you can see him get serious and that's when he beats Fynn.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 21:39:03


Post by: Hulksmash


Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 21:54:14


Post by: Voss


 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.

Oh, well no. The issues are at the hands of the writers/directors.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/15 22:11:08


Post by: SamusDrake



It might be that Rey is the real chosen one.

She assumes that her parents were just that, but in the cave in Last Jedi she only sees mulitple copies of herself and finally...just herself in the "mirror". Then there is the title of the first movie "The FORCE awakens"...and its Rey that is the focus of the awakening. In ROTS, Palpatine hints that the midis could be influenced to create life...

Okay, so her parents might have just been a couple who assumed that role and Rey was too young to know otherwise. The whole cave scene is probably a hint that while Anakin was created under influence, Rey is actually the midi's natural product of their design for the chosen one. With such power the midis have probably guided her during her lonely existance on Jakku( able to live in relative peace and no problem for a being with a very large midi count - Rey is obviously a natural survivor ) but when confronted by a descendant of the "engineered" chosen one( a defective, unnatural version ) the midis decide to awaken Rey's real natural powers to ensure her survival so that she can bring balance to the force.

That at least would explain her quick recovery from being slammed against the tree( Finn only needed to buy the midis a little time to work their magic ) and ability to overcome problems other Jedi take years of training to accomplish. Although Snoke had her by the short-and-curlies, she does need guidence and possibly more time to "fully awaken". Leia obviously has had training, enough to escape the vacuum of space, so maybe she has given Rey enough guidence since the last film to be more intune with her inner midis. She might surpass Snoke in the new film( she is now doing awesome back flips, afterall )...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/16 00:34:45


Post by: Grey Templar


 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.


Well, I would say the actress has done the best with what she was given.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/16 18:25:21


Post by: Vaktathi


Got suckered into watching the trailer.

Could have just been another MCU movie as far as I'm concerned.

Part of what made the originals so great was their ability to make the extraordinary...ordinary. Yeah, there were Starfighters and giant landships and speeders and Stormtroopers, but they all felt like mundanr every day things in the setting. When you saw AT-AT's advancing in open order with scattered infantry support, it looked like reskinned real world military manuevers.

A Starfighter plowing along a for several kilometers at 3ft of altitude, acting more like a speeding train or car, right into a protagonist staring directly into the camera for their dramatic Marvel-esque backflip, does not fit the same way.

I suspect this will be much like the other recent flicks, a visually exciting couple of hours with a completely garbage narrative and plot. Bringing back Palpatine and the whole "every generation" thing just comes off as nostalgia bombing and pandering for its own sake, and the inner 12 year old who wants to play TIE Fighter just isn't getting the itch scratched.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/16 21:44:50


Post by: Vulcan


 Grey Templar wrote:
 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.


Well, I would say the actress has done the best with what she was given.


No argument there.

I may not like the way the characters have been written and directed... but I fault none of them for their depiction of that writing and direction.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 07:51:20


Post by: Graphite


With Kylo's mask - surely this would be the third "copy" of the same mask? He drops the first one at the end of TFA - do you believe that, after being shot, sliced up and standing on an exploding planet his first thought will be "I'll go get my mask back?"

Seems unlikely. Copy number two gets smashed when Snoke takes the mickey. Snoke's dead now - Kylo will wear whatever he pleases. Get another mask out of the cupboard.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 09:57:51


Post by: Backfire


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.


Luke was ace pilot on X-Wing in his first flight in it. (btw, Han flies Falcon to Starkiller base).

Harry Potter opens with Harry, still a baby, killing Voldemort, main villain of the series...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 10:02:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.

The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 10:23:58


Post by: Backfire


 Galef wrote:
Speaking of R2, did I miss him in the Trailer, or is he just not in it?
Seems odd to not have him in it. Does JJ hate R2 or something?
-


R2D2, not really an all-terrain droid. They probably couldn't bring him there. Also personally, I am pretty sick of R2 by now. If we need token droid along, lets stick with BB-8.

Lando has very similar shirt he had in ESB. Has he not updated his wardrobe in 30 years? And Rey is dressed same as in TFA again. This is minor annoyance, but it reeks of "oh we need to dress them same so people would recognize them" -trope. Luke and Leia did not wear same damn outfits all the time in the original movies. Well, admittably Han did.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 11:44:36


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Vaktathi wrote:
Got suckered into watching the trailer.

Could have just been another MCU movie as far as I'm concerned.

Part of what made the originals so great was their ability to make the extraordinary...ordinary. Yeah, there were Starfighters and giant landships and speeders and Stormtroopers, but they all felt like mundanr every day things in the setting. When you saw AT-AT's advancing in open order with scattered infantry support, it looked like reskinned real world military manuevers.

A Starfighter plowing along a for several kilometers at 3ft of altitude, acting more like a speeding train or car, right into a protagonist staring directly into the camera for their dramatic Marvel-esque backflip, does not fit the same way.

I suspect this will be much like the other recent flicks, a visually exciting couple of hours with a completely garbage narrative and plot. Bringing back Palpatine and the whole "every generation" thing just comes off as nostalgia bombing and pandering for its own sake, and the inner 12 year old who wants to play TIE Fighter just isn't getting the itch scratched.


I know what you mean.

Of course, the originals took WW2 footage and actin films for a lot of their combat visual design. The space fighting was based on Battle of Britain. The raid on the Death Star trench was based on the Dambusters.

Since those times film=making has been exposed to a whole lot of new influences such as Chinese acrobatic king fu, and superhero flicks. These kind of visual tropes have "leaked" into general action flick usage.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 11:57:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 12:22:59


Post by: Frazzled


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


Your version of "better" and mine are different. ESB's sword fight is epic. Tense, film noir full of menace.
I - III looks more like a video game.*

*I really did like the fight with Darth Maul. I thought that might be the second best fight.

Of course the best use of a sabre is the end scene for Rogue One.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 12:32:48


Post by: Yodhrin


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.

The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).


Wait, in what way is Biggs, in the film, talking Luke up as "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim territories" part of the EU? ANH doesn't sit the audience down for a montage of Luke training to fly the X-Wing, or have him give a monologue detailing his extensive training to operate aircraft, but it clearly indicates he has previous experience, and it never presents him as an unbeatable ace or anything - he takes damage, he has his arse pulled out of the fire by others, he gets help from his droid, he only survives to Use The Force Luke at all because Wedge and Biggs - at the cost of Biggs' life - hold off the enemy long enough. Everything the viewer needs to grasp that Luke is a decent but not unbeatable pilot who triumphs in the end based on mysticism and the sacrifices of others as much if not more so than his own abilities is right there in the movie, subsequent material added in the EU was exactly that, expanded, additional, extra, details, minutiae. It enriches the story as presented on-screen, it isn't *required* to explain it.

It's not required *at all* for Luke's force abilities, which only improve after multiple failures, and never exceed those of the villains. Even his victory over Vader with a lightsaber is explicitly due to his giving in to rage and hate and the dark side, which is specifically called out as being the quick and easy path that carries a terrible cost, and his actual final victory comes not through strength of arms, or raw force power, but through finally learning the lessons his mentors were trying to impart, rejecting the easy path, and inspiring the redemption of a foe.

It's is functionally, literally impossible for Luke to be a Mary Sue, because Star Wars is purposefully an entirely archetypal rendition of the hero's journey, and being a Mary Sue is incompatible with following that storyline.

The contrast with Rey is that there is *no* on-screen explanation of how a scrapper who lives alone in a wasteland can go from a speederbike to performing high-stakes aerial maneuvers in a battered old freighter in literally moments, or how she can manifest force powers with zero training or understanding of them that were used in the OT to indicate the massive gulf of power and knowledge between the young apprentice and the wise old master, or how she can go from fending off other scavs and the odd animal with a big stick to a lightsaber duel with possibly the second most powerful dark sider in the galaxy in the space of a day or so.

The problem with Rey's character is the same as the problems with the two new movies; in TFA, JJ was too busy with his usual desire to string together a bunch of "kewl stuff bruh" to care about things like pacing or character development, so the characters just do whatever he needs them to do in order to get his big blowout effects shot, and in TLJ, Johnson was too busy subverting expectations and pandering to the "YAAASS QUEEN" crowd to care whether it made sense for Rey to be the bestest force user ever. IE, in both cases, the problem was that the guy in charge has objectives other than solid characterisation and telling a coherent story. There's nothing inherent to Rey that makes her a Mary Sue, or at least makes her a fair facsimile of one(she technically has some flaws, but they're "flaws" in the same sense as someone listing their worst trait on a CV as "I like to work too hard"), but because neither JJ nor Johnson was willing to waste even a few moments of their grand masterpieces to tee up any of her triumphs that's how she ended up.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 12:40:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It's the matter of the controls.

What ANH shows us is someone familiar with civilian craft, able to not only pilot a Fighter, but with a degree of competence that he can tackle trained enemy pilots with a decent level of success.

Other info we should be careful not to include? TIE Fighters not being shielded. All we know is that they're short range fighters - and normally are part of something akin to a Convoy or Carrier group (as we approach what's left of Alderran)

Rey? Finn says 'we need a pilot'. Rey replies 'we've got one', referring of course to herself. How is that any different at all from Biggs' comment about Luke? Both are single lines, with little justification or demonstration until we see them taking flight.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 12:51:25


Post by: creeping-deth87


Backfire wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.


Luke was ace pilot on X-Wing in his first flight in it. (btw, Han flies Falcon to Starkiller base).

Harry Potter opens with Harry, still a baby, killing Voldemort, main villain of the series...


Yodhrin said it better, but I'll paraphrase anyway. Luke was not an ace pilot. He nearly crashes into the death star, gets his bacon saved by his wing mates, and can only take the final shot because Biggs and Wedge throw themselves between Vader and Luke. You see him struggle, and that's why Luke doesn't come across even half as ridiculous as Rey does.

Oh and Harry Potter I can't stand either, so hardly a counter point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's the matter of the controls.

What ANH shows us is someone familiar with civilian craft, able to not only pilot a Fighter, but with a degree of competence that he can tackle trained enemy pilots with a decent level of success.

Other info we should be careful not to include? TIE Fighters not being shielded. All we know is that they're short range fighters - and normally are part of something akin to a Convoy or Carrier group (as we approach what's left of Alderran)

Rey? Finn says 'we need a pilot'. Rey replies 'we've got one', referring of course to herself. How is that any different at all from Biggs' comment about Luke? Both are single lines, with little justification or demonstration until we see them taking flight.


Because it doesn't make any sense dude. She's a scavenger who lives day to day, scrounging whatever she can for her next meal. How the hell does this homeless garbage goblin learn how to fly like that?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 12:56:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


She did. That's evident.

Why the beef? How did a Farmboy learn to fly so well? When he's clearly a much needed pair of hands on the farm? Why shouldn't Rey already be a competent pilot?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 13:14:17


Post by: Formosa


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
She did. That's evident.

Why the beef? How did a Farmboy learn to fly so well? When he's clearly a much needed pair of hands on the farm? Why shouldn't Rey already be a competent pilot?


This is a simple case of show don't tell, JJ has never been any good at that, it isn't a star wars problem, also a problem Lucas has but not as bad.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 13:18:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We can also reasonably infer that Rey has some formal knowledge of how starships work - and likely has previously piloted the Falcon whilst it was owned by Unkar Plutt.

How?

1. She's a scavenger of starship parts. If you don't know what's what, you're not going to survive in that trade, as you're far more likely to bring absolute junk to trade, rather than useful bits and bobs with intrinsic value (doubly so when the sole buyer sets the price as they see fit).

2. She's clearly experienced within The Falcon. She knows about things changed by Unkar, and why they're not necessarily a good idea. To the point she's able to bypass/remove at least one on the fly.

Who taught her this? Who knows. Who cares. It's a level of knowledge she clearly has - whether people think she should or not.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 13:22:22


Post by: creeping-deth87


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
She did. That's evident.



Well with a counterpoint like this, an actual argument isn't really possible.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 13:27:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


You mean you've got nothing to explain why she couldn't/shouldn't have learned to fly, yeah?

See my other post just above for more info to support.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 13:31:50


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


There's plenty of examples of force users having more tech knowledge than they probably should. Look at young Anakin, making his own droid and pod racer.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 13:36:20


Post by: Galef


 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
There's plenty of examples of force users having more tech knowledge than they probably should. Look at young Anakin, making his own droid and pod racer.
On top of this, keep in mind that Star Wars does not appear to have ...distractions...like we do. Just look at the skill set people in our own reality had 100 years ago compared to now.
When you actually have to help out your parents at an early age and don't have video games or TV, you learn a LOT pretty quickly.
Heck, even my own kids don't seem to have the same skills I had at their age, but they have the advantage of having both parents. I grew up with just my mom, so I had to help more than most.

Rey probably has tons of "down time" to learn lots of stuff

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 14:00:22


Post by: LunarSol


FWIW, most of the Biggs stuff isn't even in the original....


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 14:04:00


Post by: Backfire


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


Swordwork in original trilogy was based on kendo. I suppose it might have actually looked fresh and interesting for most Western audiences. But sure thing, audience expectations and tastes had changed by the time prequels rolled out.

Whereas the athleticism and choreography is better on prequel swordfights, they tend to be crap in storyline terms. Only the first (Darth Maul fight) has some kind of weak storyline. Otherwise the fights are random collection of movements with no flow or storytelling. Last one (Ep III) is the worst.

In fact, original trilogy did not really even have "swordfights" if we define them as participants trying to land a decisive blow to win the fight. They were more like character interaction scenes with weapons used as form of communication. Particularly true for ESB.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 14:20:44


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.

The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).


It might have been from Alan Dean Foster’s ghostwritten novelisation.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 14:20:51


Post by: Kilkrazy


All the things about "montages" to explain why character X is good at Y are missing the point.

Luke was "trained" in The Force by Obi Wan and Yoda not to explain why he was good at The Force, but to explain to the audience what The Force is about. By the time of Star Wars 7 we all know, and don't need to waste time having it explained over again.

This is also why Rey's character journey in the Jedi Island is different to Luke's journey in the Jedi Swamp. It's not about being trained in The Force. In the tunnel scene, Luke is being prepared to confront his father. Rey is being prepared to confront her own hopes and dreams.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 14:57:35


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


"Much better"? What? In the OT, you could buy the Jedi as monks fighting a spiritual battle that happened to be accompanied by a physical battle, who used their foresight to jockey for the perfect position and moment to strike, while also allowing the force to guide their blocks and feints. The prequels look like the worst wire-fu, like a superhero video game instead of a battle of wills and ideologies taking place on a higher plane.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:00:29


Post by: Galef


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


"Much better"? What? In the OT, you could buy the Jedi as monks fighting a spiritual battle that happened to be accompanied by a physical battle, who used their foresight to jockey for the perfect position and moment to strike, while also allowing the force to guide their blocks and feints. The prequels look like the worst wire-fu, like a superhero video game instead of a battle of wills and ideologies taking place on a higher plane.
Just substitute the phrase "Much better" with "more athletic" or "less like old men poking at each other with a stick" and you get the point.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:02:26


Post by: Voss


In other news, Lucas randomly announced today that Jar Jar is his all time favorite character.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/entertainment-arts-47960054

And also that phantom menace is one of his favorite films.


And, lo, many blessings of thanksgiving should be rendered unto the Mouse. Because this all could have been so much worse.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:04:58


Post by: Captain Joystick


Rey has plenty of dialogue to prove she'd at least know how to fly, she's familiar with Plutt's motor pool, she knows who he stole his ships from, she knows what modifications the Falcon has and she knows it's 'garbage'. After the chase scene she flat out states she's flown ships before and with the dialogue pertaining to Plutt's use of the compressor plus the flashback where she is left in his cruel care we know she's spent her life fixing and flying ships and her life as a scavenger plays into that.

She also flat out states she can't explain how she knew the forward flip maneuver would work, and that's supposed to be our first clue that she's force sensitive (because we've seen Phantom Menace and remember how Qui-Gon noticed Anakin was using the force subconsciously).

To be clear: the term Mary Sue is overused to the point where its lost its meaning. Today if your character can, through effort and training, achieve something the viewership can't after a lifetime spent on the couch, someone somewhere will call her a Mary Sue.

The part where that label sticks with people though, in my opinion, is the scene where she mind tricks the stormtrooper.

Everything else she does related to the Force is a believable manifestation of the overwhelming power that everyone in the movie seems to notice, but that one stands out because she did something so specific, expecting something so specific, failed, then tried again. It honestly feels like there was a scene missing, where like, Han explains to her that he saw Luke do that, or she sees Kylo do that, or Kylo does it to her. Everything else fits in with the line from Snoke about how the light rises to meet the dark.

Personally I would have had R2 with Kylo, and have Rey pull the restraining bolt off with the force, then have them both escape together. Fixing my two biggest problems with Force Awakens in one go.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:10:10


Post by: Kilkrazy


The original and correct meaning of Mary Sue was a character inserted by the author, which represented the author's desire to be an effective character within the work, and had implausibly few flaws.

It now means a character you don't like and think they are too powerful.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:20:28


Post by: LunarSol


 Kilkrazy wrote:
The original and correct meaning of Mary Sue was a character inserted by the author, which represented the author's desire to be an effective character within the work, and had implausibly few flaws.

It now means a character you don't like and think they are too powerful.


If there was ever an author insert leading a franchise it would be G. Lucas Skywalker


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:30:40


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Galef wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


"Much better"? What? In the OT, you could buy the Jedi as monks fighting a spiritual battle that happened to be accompanied by a physical battle, who used their foresight to jockey for the perfect position and moment to strike, while also allowing the force to guide their blocks and feints. The prequels look like the worst wire-fu, like a superhero video game instead of a battle of wills and ideologies taking place on a higher plane.
Just substitute the phrase "Much better" with "more athletic" or "less like old men poking at each other with a stick" and you get the point.

-


If the story is well written and the stakes clear, I would much prefer old men poking each other with sticks over anything we've seen in the prequel or sequel trilogies. The best use of the Force as a mystical power since the OT was freakin' Chirrut from Rogue One. I don't need the Force as a mutant superpower for ripped athletes because I already have the Spiderverse, MCU, X-verse and DCEU. More space monks fighting space wizards and less space heroes fighting space villains, please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the sequels, Rey isn't the problem. She is not the only underdeveloped character who didn't earn her rewards. Nothing in the ST is earned, nothing develops from a strong sense of character and motivation, except for Kylo Ren. The movies are lazy and facile and focus overly much on the most shallow interpretation of what Star Wars is, and it's not like Star Wars has hard to reach depths.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:35:48


Post by: Backfire


Only thing "Mary Sueish" in Rey is her sudden acquiring advanced Force powers with no foreshadowing. I put that more in category of generic crap writing (equivalent to bunch of other daft stuff in TFA, like Starkiller base) than some "Mary-Sue" insertion. Other than that, her skillset is hardly implausible. She is skilled mechanic and fighter because she needs to be that to survive. Obviously she had done piloting jobs for local crime lords before.

In similar fashion, I do not think Luke's combat and flying skills were implausible. A farm boy on a planet with many hostile creatures is likely to be a good shot. He has obviously flown some combat speeders or atmospheric fighters previously and probably flown starfighters in simulators. Star Wars universe ships seem to be quite easy to operate once you know the basics. Number of times you see people hopping on a new ship and just start flying. Writers don't want to get bogged down in details like this, but it is easy to justify in-universe too. Galactic Republic was/is technologically pretty stale place and probably starship interfaces have become standardized to high degree. Kinda like smartphones. Know the basics and you can do lot of stuff even if you never have used it before.

Proper Mary Sues are usually portrayed as extremely smart, able to outwit everyone. Rey hardly fits the bill. I doubt actual self-insertion writers would want to project themselves into a character who is so obviously naive.

PS. Thought experiment. What if Poe Dameron was a girl, with all that same smartass attitude, verbal prowess, bravado and truly insane piloting skills? Would people complain that she is a Mary Sue?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:39:51


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Poetia Dameron would still come into the story as the Resistance's top agent, right? With characters swooning for her like she was Ace Rimmer? That's not Mary Sueism, that's character establishment. And if the actress who played her was as talented as Oscar Isaac, she'd probably be just as popular.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:41:10


Post by: Backfire


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

For the sequels, Rey isn't the problem. She is not the only underdeveloped character who didn't earn her rewards. Nothing in the ST is earned, nothing develops from a strong sense of character and motivation, except for Kylo Ren. The movies are lazy and facile and focus overly much on the most shallow interpretation of what Star Wars is, and it's not like Star Wars has hard to reach depths.


Disney SW movies are basically Cargo Cult versions of original movies. They imitate outer appearence of the originals and attempt similar things but individual pieces don't fit.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:41:57


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


It's like Boba Fett coming into ESB able to sass Vader without getting force choked--that just lets you know where he stands as a character. If Fett started out as an orphan and then just stumbled his way into a scene about him sassing Vader without getting force choked, that would be a JJ Abrams film.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backfire wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

For the sequels, Rey isn't the problem. She is not the only underdeveloped character who didn't earn her rewards. Nothing in the ST is earned, nothing develops from a strong sense of character and motivation, except for Kylo Ren. The movies are lazy and facile and focus overly much on the most shallow interpretation of what Star Wars is, and it's not like Star Wars has hard to reach depths.


Disney SW movies are basically Cargo Cult versions of original movies. They imitate outer appearence of the originals and attempt similar things but individual pieces don't fit.


Yes. That is my take exactly.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 15:57:46


Post by: Backfire


 Yodhrin wrote:

The contrast with Rey is that there is *no* on-screen explanation of how a scrapper who lives alone in a wasteland can go from a speederbike to performing high-stakes aerial maneuvers in a battered old freighter in literally moments, or how she can manifest force powers with zero training or understanding of them that were used in the OT to indicate the massive gulf of power and knowledge between the young apprentice and the wise old master, or how she can go from fending off other scavs and the odd animal with a big stick to a lightsaber duel with possibly the second most powerful dark sider in the galaxy in the space of a day or so.


Though, when she meets the most powerful Dark Sider, she is squashed like a bug. So much for her awesome powers!

Mind you, Dark Side is supposedly not stronger, but every time topmost light siders meet the dark side masters, they are overpowered. Weird!
Surely Yoda was not lying??


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 16:05:03


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Maybe there's some light-side bodhisattva in a cave somewhere hogging all the good mindjuice.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 17:51:57


Post by: epronovost


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You mean you've got nothing to explain why she couldn't/shouldn't have learned to fly, yeah?

See my other post just above for more info to support.


Technically, Rey is completely amazed by her capacity to fly the Falcon like a pro. Se might have had a cursory knowledge of flight thanks to her life as a scavanger (she indeed knows what is what and how it works). To me her amazement is simply a side effect of her instinctive control of the Force. It was already shown in previous movies that Force user can use it without training in moment of stress, danger, etc. Anakin could use it to predict the dangers of a crazy speeder race when he was a boy for example. It seems eveident to me that the explanation for Rey's ability to fly the Falcon like that was through the Force which acts a bit like a pool of knowledge. If the Force does connect the entire galaxy together, then the Force could be simultaneously be considered as a pool of knowledge of all living creatures in the galaxy (or at least of all its users, many of which are fantastic pilots). The idea that the Force could act as super-consciousness has already been established before and the idea that knowledge, memories and emotions could survive your death in the SWU has already been shown in Force ghost.Rey's abilities are explained. They just aren't spelled out in a character sheet manner.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 18:38:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Indeed.

I’d even go so far as to venture the question of just how much an untrained Force Sensitive can achieve.

Jedi Mind Trick? If you want something, why shouldn’t that come naturally enough? One suspects the training is in honing the ability, rather than actually learning it.

Force Attract? Well, we see Luke pull that off in the Wampanoag Cave. And having wracked my brain, I can’t think of such a skill being seen prior on-screen. Sure, he’s a bit ropey at it, and it takes him a while. But that’s still quite a thing to do with no training, suggesting it may be an inherent ability. Ditto the kid at the end of The Last Jedi.

Anakin could see things before they happened. So again, that’s an inherent ability, rather than one acquired by study.

There’s even the very real possibility that different abilities are held by different individuals. Either just intrinsically known because ‘reasons’, or because they happen to be Force Powers their general lifestyle is helped by, and so naturally develop as a sort of ‘supply and demand’ thing.

There are all sorts of possible explanations, and counters to them. But as there’s nothing conclusively, explicit or concrete in canon, we’re all just speculating.

Now, let’s go back to ‘how come Rey could fly, she’s a junker’. We just have to accept she learned to fly at some point - and likely on a hyperspace capable ship, given her familiarity with the engineering of the Falcon. She says she’s a pilot, then flies a ship. That is not Mary Sue, that’s just a part of her skill set, acquired over her life (much of which we remain in the dark about).

Now I am not saying said explanations are objectively well presented. I’ll leave that to the individual to decide. But to claim ‘she couldn’t have’ when she could and indeed, did? I don’t get it.

As for her taking on Kylo Ren? We see early on in TFA that she’s actually pretty fighty, chinning Unkarr’s goons in short order with her staff. So if not necessarily trained, we can safely say she’s an experienced pugilist. The rest? The Force Did It. Because that’s been explanation enough for others in the series, no?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 18:47:40


Post by: Vulcan


Backfire wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.


Luke was ace pilot on X-Wing in his first flight in it. (btw, Han flies Falcon to Starkiller base).

Harry Potter opens with Harry, still a baby, killing Voldemort, main villain of the series...


Luke does not score five kills in his first flight in an X-Wing.

Furthermore, the T-65 X-Wing is built with the same controls and the same general handling as the T-16 Skyhopper Luke used to fly when he would bullseye womprats back in Beggar's Canyon. So he at least has that much experience. Testimony from Biggs Darklighter tell us Luke was "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim", probably exaggeration from a friend, but I'm sure Incom had that in mind when they made the controls from the T-65 the same as those of the T-16.

In the meantime, we still have no idea how Rey learned to fly the Millennium Falcon as if it were an oversized starfighter. Prior to that moment the only thing we see her fly is an oversized hoverbike.

Harry Potter is irrelevant because he's not bound by rules established by six previous movies of Canon as Rey SHOULD HAVE BEEN.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 18:54:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Ahh, but my point is the similar controls thing is expanded universe knowledge. It’s not mentioned at all in A New Hope. Indeed, the X-Wing and T-16 Luke mentions being able to bullseye Wamp Rats with? Nothing to suggest they’re made by the same Corporation. Indeed, there’s nothing to say what a T-16 actually is.

Was it’s Luke’s landspeeder, and he’s referring to drive by blasting out in the dunes? We don’t know. All we know about that particular vehicle is that it’s not an XP-38, a newer model, demand for what Luke’s ride is has gone down. Why? We dunno. Is XP-38 a make or a model? Is it the same make as Luke’s? We don’t know.

This is why it irks me when people forget to parse movie knowledge from spinoff media knowledge. And yes, that includes tie-in novelisations.

Again, this is not to say people critical of the new trilogy therefore need to Drink Their Milk And Shut Their Mouth. I’m not saying any of TFA’s in-movie explanations are good. Just that they are there, despite what others might remember.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 18:56:26


Post by: Vulcan


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.

The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).


That's a fair point.

Of course, Biggs still tells his flight leader that Luke was the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim, and Luke is the one telling Wedge Antillies that hitting a two-meter target while flying down a canyon 'isn't that hard'.

Where is that testimony about Rey? Nowhere. She just does it and a sequel later we STILL do not know how.

The same thing with her uncanny force skills. She beats Kylo Ren with force skills, she beats him handily with a lightsaber she's never used in combat before (which is like a hardcore quarterstaff expert picking up a fencing foil and winning gold at the Olympics first time out), and in the second movie she matches him in force skills AGAIN... with zero explanation.

Luke may well have been a prodigy and learned everything way too fast, but at we got to see him get a LITTLE training.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 18:59:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


looks like I posted whilst you were quoting!

Sorry about that


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 19:04:10


Post by: Vulcan


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You mean you've got nothing to explain why she couldn't/shouldn't have learned to fly, yeah?

See my other post just above for more info to support.


No, there are plenty of reasons why she shouldn't. You've just clearly decided not to listen to them.

I was quite looking forward to seeing, in VII, WHY Rey could do all those things despite being a junkyard scavenger (not my first choice to pilot an aircraft in combat, not my first choice to go up against even a partially trained 'sorcerer'). It was never delivered, and instead we got 'GIRL POWER YEAH AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU'RE A SEXIST BIGOT!'

Is it any wonder I'm more than a bit disgruntled?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backfire wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:

The contrast with Rey is that there is *no* on-screen explanation of how a scrapper who lives alone in a wasteland can go from a speederbike to performing high-stakes aerial maneuvers in a battered old freighter in literally moments, or how she can manifest force powers with zero training or understanding of them that were used in the OT to indicate the massive gulf of power and knowledge between the young apprentice and the wise old master, or how she can go from fending off other scavs and the odd animal with a big stick to a lightsaber duel with possibly the second most powerful dark sider in the galaxy in the space of a day or so.


Though, when she meets the most powerful Dark Sider, she is squashed like a bug. So much for her awesome powers!

Mind you, Dark Side is supposedly not stronger, but every time topmost light siders meet the dark side masters, they are overpowered. Weird!
Surely Yoda was not lying??


And then most powerful Dark Sider dies like a chump, undermining his power as a Dark Sider.

This was ANOTHER big problem with VIII.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 19:10:56


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Finn says they need a pilot.

Rey says they’ve got one. Then pilots the ship.

People act as if that was the first time ever she could ever have possibly flown a ship.

And that’s pulled right out of thin air as arguments go.

Who taught Luke to fly? Come to that, who taught me to drive? It doesn’t matter. We need only know that the person is capable. The rest is needless backstory.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 19:13:24


Post by: Vulcan


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
looks like I posted whilst you were quoting!

Sorry about that


No worries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Finn says they need a pilot.

Rey says they’ve got one. Then pilots the ship.

People act as if that was the first time ever she could ever have possibly flown a ship.

And that’s pulled right out of thin air as arguments go.

Who taught Luke to fly? Come to that, who taught me to drive? It doesn’t matter. We need only know that the person is capable. The rest is needless backstory.


I don't agree... but I can see where you're coming from. Fair enough.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 19:24:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


As for Snoke’s downfall?

It’s a reflection of Luke and the Emperor’s chat. “Your overconfidence is your weakness”

Snoke was skimming thoughts, that much was clear. Yet he was so sure of himself, he interpreted things wrongly. He didn’t die from incompetence. He didn’t die from Deus Ex (well, no more than anyone else that’s a fictional character!). He died from arrogance. He seemed blind to any other take on Ren’s feels than his own. Yes it’s a Trope, but it’s a classic one.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 20:10:32


Post by: SamusDrake


Aunt Beru on Luke being held back from the Imperial Academy: "he's got too much of his father in him, Owen."

Later, Ben tells Luke that his father was the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy.

In the Cantina Han says "but who is going to fly it Kid? You?" and Luke replies "You bet I could! I'm not such a bad pilot myself!".

During the escape from Tatooine, Han scaulds Luke "Travelling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops boy!"...

And lets not forget the part where he shoots Wedge down...




Rey seems to make sense in that she lives on a planet that is practically a spaceship graveyard and a skilled scavenger - at least enough to become familar with the workings of a ship. She has some connection to the chap who currently owns the Falcon and knows a good ship when she sees one. We know she is unwilling to leave Jakku - a planet only oppressed by those with basic resources such as food and water and petty street gangs. I think an intelligent young woman such as herself would have made an easy-to-recruit ship hand, and the passing ships were probably as puzzled as Han was when she declined his offer...

Coupled with her force ability - similar to Anakin in Phantom Menace - her reflexes are really good. And she does share the street smart of Han...

When watching TFA for the first time, I only questioned Rey's character when she began showing off her amazing force powers without any hint of prior training - save for her good flying reflexes and street fighting ability...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 22:21:01


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Out of curiosity, why do people think that removing parts from ships allows you to become intimate enough with them to fly? There tends to be mostly knowledge of where ship parts are supposed to be and what are good enough to be valuable.. But flying one?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 22:53:08


Post by: gorgon


Why would anyone think that flying a civilian aircraft would qualify you to fly a military spacecraft in combat?

It’s ludicrous and has been since 1977. But that’s okay. It’s space fantasy. All around.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 22:54:25


Post by: epronovost


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do people think that removing parts from ships allows you to become intimate enough with them to fly? There tends to be mostly knowledge of where ship parts are supposed to be and what are good enough to be valuable.. But flying one?


It's true that being a scavenger doesn't mean you know how to fly ships (even though it could be practical), but it seems that flying ships in the Starwars univers is about as common as driving a car. Padme knew how to fly a spaceship very well and was a politician, the kind of people who barely drive anything ever in hteir lives. She also knew who to fight and fire a gun quite well for someone without any military background comming from a peaceful planet with a barebone security force. If you have magic power that allows you to know what to do and when, it seems trivial to become an ace pilot.

PS: the novelisation of the movies expend on it a little bit. Rey would have learned how to pilot by faffing off on a flight simulator she scavenged from an imperial ship and rebuilt in her spare time. Basically, she games on an old flight simulator in her free time. At least, that's what I could find on wookiepedia.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/17 23:00:58


Post by: Elbows


I always chuckle though at post-movie retconned fluff in comics, novels, etc. None of that matters to the movie-going public.

My main gripe with TLJ is that if you removed Star Wars from it, it would have been lambasted as an absolutely forgotteable movie with weak writing, garbage plot etc. However people are adamant to defend it because it's Star Wars. As if it should just get a pass because of the IP.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 02:03:41


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Elbows wrote:
I always chuckle though at post-movie retconned fluff in comics, novels, etc. None of that matters to the movie-going public.

My main gripe with TLJ is that if you removed Star Wars from it, it would have been lambasted as an absolutely forgotteable movie with weak writing, garbage plot etc. However people are adamant to defend it because it's Star Wars. As if it should just get a pass because of the IP.



You could make that argument about all of the movies in the franchise. All you have to do is apply the same critical eye the others that you have TLJ.

The Star Wars movies are not high art, nor are they well written. And in many cases they are badly directed. What keeps them popular is they are the wish fulfillment of children, and that is how they are still viewed by many. A child's view. But just like your Parents who see them in a different light as you age. You see the flaws and the mistakes. The question is can you forgive them. Many here can not and do not want to. Which is unfortunate. Once you lose your childhood, it's hard to get it back.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 02:42:24


Post by: Voss


That's pretentious gobbledegook. The original trilogy's story is simple, and has a lot of errors, but it's coherent and the pacing is pretty on point for the medium. And while the characters are tropey and cliche, it lets people grok them easily, and care about them as characters.

The triologies that followed have had none of those things, and don't make up for by excelling in other areas either, except possibly FX, though even that loses out by swapping the craftsmanship of model and film FX for fairly bland, forgettable CGI. The OT seriously broke new ground in effects and sound, doing things that no one had ever done before, and entire industries rose out of that (Skywalker sound was a mainstay of movies for decades afterwards). The CGI is the same endless high speed, low detail cludge that just fills space in modern films.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 02:43:13


Post by: Peregrine


 Crimson Devil wrote:
You could make that argument about all of the movies in the franchise. All you have to do is apply the same critical eye the others that you have TLJ.


I don't think you can. ANH defined a genre and became a cultural icon on its own merits, not because of brand recognition. And whether or not it's a "great film" by the standards of art snobs it's still a competently executed adventure story that IMO holds up pretty well 40 years later. If it seems forgettable it's only because you're judging it from 2019, after an endless line of movies copying the things it created, instead of by the standards of 1977. But you can't say any of that about TLJ. It's an incoherent mess of a movie that can't figure out what it wants to be doing, and it commits the worst possible sin of an adventure story: being boring. The fact that anyone cared at all about it is 100% due to the Star Wars brand being attached to it, make it try to succeed on its own merits and it would have failed utterly.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 05:41:40


Post by: Crimson Devil


I actually did this exercise with the Empire Strikes Back awhile ago. The dialogue in the hospital on Hoth is utter gak. Even granting your point about the era it was written, it's still utter gak dialogue. I had to stop after Hoth, before I ruined the whole movie for myself.

I'd given up on the whole Star Wars franchise a long time ago. The prequels were a boring waste of time. The only reason I saw Force Awakens in the theater was I got a free ticket and it was meh. The Last Jedi was the first SW film since Return of the Jedi i thought was worth a damn. So I feel I've judged it on it's own merits because my love of SW was long dead.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 06:25:48


Post by: epronovost


 Crimson Devil wrote:
I actually did this exercise with the Empire Strikes Back awhile ago. The dialogue in the hospital on Hoth is utter gak. Even granting your point about the era it was written, it's still utter gak dialogue. I had to stop after Hoth, before I ruined the whole movie for myself.


The central plot of Empire Stikes Back, finding a new base of operation for the rebels is also left unresolved at the end of the movie and never mentioned again. It's not even adressed in the following one. Then again second movies in trilogies frequently have this problem.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 07:59:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do people think that removing parts from ships allows you to become intimate enough with them to fly? There tends to be mostly knowledge of where ship parts are supposed to be and what are good enough to be valuable.. But flying one?


OK. As I explained. We know Rey is a pilot. She said so, then proved so.

If you demand a full explanation on-screen, perhaps with a montage? Should we start we each character's actual birth? Because other than Luke and Leia, there's no reason to believe, by extension of your logic, that just because someone is an adult, that they were ever born.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 11:26:26


Post by: AegisGrimm


The sequel trilogy barbarically culled out all of the old EU fanfiction, and then just replaced it with equally fanfiction-feeling movies, while not even touching the heights of some of the best parts of the EU. While I hope for this last movie, I assume we will see more of the same. There's really no reason, depressing as it is, to believe the third movie will suddenly turn a 180 and be the most awesome movie of the trilogy. It'll feel exactly like the Force Awakens.

Hell, it's even a return to Endor, for Pete's sake! Each movie is literally going to retread each of the OT movies in one shape or another. At least the Prequels didn't do that.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 11:59:31


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Is it a return to Endor though? That's still a massive assumption.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 12:14:50


Post by: Frazzled


 Peregrine wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
You could make that argument about all of the movies in the franchise. All you have to do is apply the same critical eye the others that you have TLJ.


I don't think you can. ANH defined a genre and became a cultural icon on its own merits, not because of brand recognition. And whether or not it's a "great film" by the standards of art snobs it's still a competently executed adventure story that IMO holds up pretty well 40 years later. If it seems forgettable it's only because you're judging it from 2019, after an endless line of movies copying the things it created, instead of by the standards of 1977. But you can't say any of that about TLJ. It's an incoherent mess of a movie that can't figure out what it wants to be doing, and it commits the worst possible sin of an adventure story: being boring. The fact that anyone cared at all about it is 100% due to the Star Wars brand being attached to it, make it try to succeed on its own merits and it would have failed utterly.


This post is eight dimensions of RIGHT.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 12:20:00


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The flipside to that, is that established fans are seeing the new stuff as adults, and not the kids that first fell in love with the saga.

If you apply the same level of ridiculous forensic dissection to the originals, there are just as many daft bits. Yet we love them all the same.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 12:59:49


Post by: Mr Morden


 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
I always chuckle though at post-movie retconned fluff in comics, novels, etc. None of that matters to the movie-going public.

My main gripe with TLJ is that if you removed Star Wars from it, it would have been lambasted as an absolutely forgotteable movie with weak writing, garbage plot etc. However people are adamant to defend it because it's Star Wars. As if it should just get a pass because of the IP.



You could make that argument about all of the movies in the franchise. All you have to do is apply the same critical eye the others that you have TLJ.

The Star Wars movies are not high art, nor are they well written. And in many cases they are badly directed. What keeps them popular is they are the wish fulfillment of children, and that is how they are still viewed by many. A child's view. But just like your Parents who see them in a different light as you age. You see the flaws and the mistakes. The question is can you forgive them. Many here can not and do not want to. Which is unfortunate. Once you lose your childhood, it's hard to get it back.


For me the first Star Wars trilogy were fun action adventure films and thats it. They did not change my life or make me care about the Skywalker dynasty or anything.

The Prequal trilogy was a poor attempt at recereating them with terrible plots, boring chracters and cringeworthy dialogue

The Force awakens was ok - its a not as much fun as the first three but quite enjoyable.

Then there is the steaming turd that is The last Jedi. Everything about it is badly done, poor writing, awful plot laughable pacing, stupid plot device after stupid plot device intersperssed by trips to a cassino world. It has no joy, no ideas and no plot - it appears to have been written by a five year old on a bad day and directed by the same.

All its defenders (mostly paid critics) claim it is sooo subversive - the only thing it actually subverted was the once bright idea that it could be an entertaining and /or intelligent film in any respect.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 13:28:28


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do people think that removing parts from ships allows you to become intimate enough with them to fly? There tends to be mostly knowledge of where ship parts are supposed to be and what are good enough to be valuable.. But flying one?


OK. As I explained. We know Rey is a pilot. She said so, then proved so.

If you demand a full explanation on-screen, perhaps with a montage? Should we start we each character's actual birth? Because other than Luke and Leia, there's no reason to believe, by extension of your logic, that just because someone is an adult, that they were ever born.
That's trying to pitch the ball to the outfield instead of to the batter. You can do better then this.

She said she could pilot, but nothing gives any indication she could. Yes, I would've been satisfied if we even got the barest hint of a descriptor that she might've taken a joyride in the Falcon when Unkor Plutt wasn't looking. That she might've flied some still semi-working ships home for money/food.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 13:53:18


Post by: Galef


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it a return to Endor though? That's still a massive assumption.
I do not think it is a "massive" assumption, but more of a "fair" assumption. There's really only 2 choices: Yavin or Endor, since we KNOW it's one of the Death Stars.
Considering the Palpatine laugh at the end of the trailer, it probably Endor.

But it might not be the "Forest Moon of Endor". But Endor itself, or another of its moons. While I believe Endor was established as a gas giant in supplemental material, I do not think that was ever said in Movie canon, so it very well could be re-established as a planet with human-compatible atmosphere and ground.
In any case, it doesn't "look" like the Forest moon of Endor, but then the affects of the Death Star debris and 30+ years could have altered the Moon, so...

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 13:56:25


Post by: Vaktathi


epronovost wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
I actually did this exercise with the Empire Strikes Back awhile ago. The dialogue in the hospital on Hoth is utter gak. Even granting your point about the era it was written, it's still utter gak dialogue. I had to stop after Hoth, before I ruined the whole movie for myself.


The central plot of Empire Stikes Back, finding a new base of operation for the rebels is also left unresolved at the end of the movie and never mentioned again. It's not even adressed in the following one. Then again second movies in trilogies frequently have this problem.
To be fair, I don't recall finding a new base being a central plot point of Empire, escape and survival is. The Empire was retaliating and it was up to the Heroes to survive, learn, grow, and endure, to face defeat and still persevere before the endgame, scouting out and establishing a new Rebel base was never their objective from what I remember. At the end of the movie the Rebellion is seen reorganizing in space (we didn't see Nebulon-B frigates around Hoth for example) and the subsequent ROTJ portrays the Rebellion forces almost exclusively space based except for the Endor landing party.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 14:05:02


Post by: tneva82


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it a return to Endor though? That's still a massive assumption.


Ah yes. Imperium built massive fleet of death stars whose remains are scattered all around. Yep.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 14:36:02


Post by: Peregrine


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do people think that removing parts from ships allows you to become intimate enough with them to fly? There tends to be mostly knowledge of where ship parts are supposed to be and what are good enough to be valuable.. But flying one?


OK. As I explained. We know Rey is a pilot. She said so, then proved so.

If you demand a full explanation on-screen, perhaps with a montage? Should we start we each character's actual birth? Because other than Luke and Leia, there's no reason to believe, by extension of your logic, that just because someone is an adult, that they were ever born.
That's trying to pitch the ball to the outfield instead of to the batter. You can do better then this.

She said she could pilot, but nothing gives any indication she could. Yes, I would've been satisfied if we even got the barest hint of a descriptor that she might've taken a joyride in the Falcon when Unkor Plutt wasn't looking. That she might've flied some still semi-working ships home for money/food.



Do you also complain when someone in a modern setting drives a car without first showing them attending driving school?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 14:52:24


Post by: Crimson Devil


Prior to the flying combat around a Deathstar, we never see Luke fly anything. Just a statement he can pilot a ship.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 15:04:12


Post by: Galef


I also think it's more than fair to assume many people have piloting skills in the Star Wars universe. Far more proportionally to ours. So you really DON'T need proof to believe someone could be a good pilot.

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 15:32:41


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Frazzled wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
You could make that argument about all of the movies in the franchise. All you have to do is apply the same critical eye the others that you have TLJ.


I don't think you can. ANH defined a genre and became a cultural icon on its own merits, not because of brand recognition. And whether or not it's a "great film" by the standards of art snobs it's still a competently executed adventure story that IMO holds up pretty well 40 years later. If it seems forgettable it's only because you're judging it from 2019, after an endless line of movies copying the things it created, instead of by the standards of 1977. But you can't say any of that about TLJ. It's an incoherent mess of a movie that can't figure out what it wants to be doing, and it commits the worst possible sin of an adventure story: being boring. The fact that anyone cared at all about it is 100% due to the Star Wars brand being attached to it, make it try to succeed on its own merits and it would have failed utterly.


This post is eight dimensions of RIGHT.


It's just nonsensical to criticise TLJ for not being not a Star Wars film. Its purpose is to build on and develop themes established in previous episodes of the series.

If it was a completely new SF film it wouldn't be anything to do with Star Wars, and it would have a completely different script and characters and all that sort of thing.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 17:24:51


Post by: SamusDrake


Thinking further on Rey being a pilot - there is some suggestion she had previous experience with at least the Falcon.

The Falcon belongs to Simon Pegg's character "Unkar Plutt" at the start of TFA and we do know that Rey was left in his care during the jedi-vision sequence. Rey knows that the Falcon hasn't flown in years and is familar with the interior working of the ship. We also know that Rey is on her own now...perhaps due to a falling out with Unkar Plutt or that he simply no longer had use for her. Perhaps Unkar felt Rey was more trouble than she was worth(due to her obsession becoming a problem?) and turned her loose, leaving her to fend for herself...

It is possible that Rey was part of his crew when he did fly the Falcon and Rey was a ship's hand. Maybe Unkar showed her the controls during trips so he could focus on managing the rest of the crew or whatever was more important at the time. She did seem comfortable in the role of co-pilot while Han was flying, and maybe that was her role on Unkar's crew - able to watch a real pilot in action? As we find her she was no longer in a position to fly the Falcon and turned to scavenging to survive, becoming familar with the interior workings of other ships such as the wreaked star destroyer, and an X-wing( she wore a rebel helmet in one scene ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it a return to Endor though? That's still a massive assumption.


Ah yes. Imperium built massive fleet of death stars whose remains are scattered all around. Yep.


The silver screen could not contain such awesomeness.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 22:08:43


Post by: Vulcan


epronovost wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
I actually did this exercise with the Empire Strikes Back awhile ago. The dialogue in the hospital on Hoth is utter gak. Even granting your point about the era it was written, it's still utter gak dialogue. I had to stop after Hoth, before I ruined the whole movie for myself.


The central plot of Empire Stikes Back, finding a new base of operation for the rebels is also left unresolved at the end of the movie and never mentioned again. It's not even adressed in the following one. Then again second movies in trilogies frequently have this problem.


The central plot of ESB is the same of the whole trilogy - following Luke Skywalker on his Hero's Journey. The rebellion against the empire is just the background on which the story is told.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote:
Thinking further on Rey being a pilot - there is some suggestion she had previous experience with at least the Falcon.

The Falcon belongs to Simon Pegg's character "Unkar Plutt" at the start of TFA and we do know that Rey was left in his care during the jedi-vision sequence. Rey knows that the Falcon hasn't flown in years and is familar with the interior working of the ship. We also know that Rey is on her own now...perhaps due to a falling out with Unkar Plutt or that he simply no longer had use for her. Perhaps Unkar felt Rey was more trouble than she was worth(due to her obsession becoming a problem?) and turned her loose, leaving her to fend for herself...

It is possible that Rey was part of his crew when he did fly the Falcon and Rey was a ship's hand. Maybe Unkar showed her the controls during trips so he could focus on managing the rest of the crew or whatever was more important at the time. She did seem comfortable in the role of co-pilot while Han was flying, and maybe that was her role on Unkar's crew - able to watch a real pilot in action? As we find her she was no longer in a position to fly the Falcon and turned to scavenging to survive, becoming familar with the interior workings of other ships such as the wreaked star destroyer, and an X-wing( she wore a rebel helmet in one scene ).


Plausible. Adding "I know, I used to crew on it!" to her line saying "It's a piece of junk" would have explained that away and her being able to fly it is explained. It would have been a stretch for her to fly it like it was a starfighter instead of a piece of junk, but hey, The Force.

Still want to know where she got all her force training from for stuff like reading Kylo Ren's mind (Leia resisted mindprobes untrained, so there is that precedent), mindtricked a Stormtrooper, and became an expert lightsaber fighter.

And for that matter, why RJ was allowed to leave such AWFUL choreography in the Throne Room fight...


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 22:39:28


Post by: epronovost


 Vulcan wrote:
The central plot of ESB is the same of the whole trilogy - following Luke Skywalker on his Hero's Journey. The rebellion against the empire is just the background on which the story is told.


The same could be said for any movies. They are just the story of the character and everything else is just the background on which the story is told. All stories are the story of a character growth or development.



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 22:56:52


Post by: Vulcan


epronovost wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
The central plot of ESB is the same of the whole trilogy - following Luke Skywalker on his Hero's Journey. The rebellion against the empire is just the background on which the story is told.


The same could be said for any movies. They are just the story of the character and everything else is just the background on which the story is told. All stories are the story of a character growth or development.



Except for VII and VIII, in which no character growth or development occurred.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 23:09:17


Post by: Hulksmash


I disagree. I feel like Kylo and Rey both grew in 7 and 8. I get not liking things in 8 like the side quest and really anything to do with Finn and the starship chase. But the other half with Rey and kylo was still good and both showed development


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 23:11:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the ‘must be Endor’ thing.

Number of issues with that.

First, it could be one of the moons of Yavin.

Second? Those were massive explosions. Who knows where each piece of debris might finally have fallen foul of gravity? I’d need to review ROTJ again, but I’m fairly sure the main gun of the second Deathstar was pointing away from the Forest Moon? That would mean it was asploded out and away from it.

Third? Bits of the first Deathstar were used, post Endor, to assemble ‘New Yavin’. Could be part of that, and who knows where that might’ve ended up?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 23:15:45


Post by: Vulcan


 Hulksmash wrote:
I disagree. I feel like Kylo and Rey both grew in 7 and 8. I get not liking things in 8 like the side quest and really anything to do with Finn and the starship chase. But the other half with Rey and kylo was still good and both showed development


Okay, that's a fair criticism of my statement.

But when your villain shows more character development than most of your heroes, your story has problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the ‘must be Endor’ thing.

Number of issues with that.

First, it could be one of the moons of Yavin.

Second? Those were massive explosions. Who knows where each piece of debris might finally have fallen foul of gravity? I’d need to review ROTJ again, but I’m fairly sure the main gun of the second Deathstar was pointing away from the Forest Moon? That would mean it was asploded out and away from it.

Third? Bits of the first Deathstar were used, post Endor, to assemble ‘New Yavin’. Could be part of that, and who knows where that might’ve ended up?


Sticking strictly to what's shown onscreen, the first Death Star was blown into lots of (relatively) tiny pieces. There certainly wasn't a big enough piece of the 'main gun' left to be recognizable.

On the other side, the last time we see the second Death Star, as the Millennium Falcon flies away, it's clear there are explosions gutting the insides... but the outer skin is still intact.

By that alone, it has to be Endor or one of it's moons... and the Forest Moon would have the greatest gravitational effect on the now-unpowered hulk.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 23:29:53


Post by: SamusDrake


 Vulcan wrote:

Plausible. Adding "I know, I used to crew on it!" to her line saying "It's a piece of junk" would have explained that away and her being able to fly it is explained. It would have been a stretch for her to fly it like it was a starfighter instead of a piece of junk, but hey, The Force.

Still want to know where she got all her force training from for stuff like reading Kylo Ren's mind (Leia resisted mindprobes untrained, so there is that precedent), mindtricked a Stormtrooper, and became an expert lightsaber fighter.

And for that matter, why RJ was allowed to leave such AWFUL choreography in the Throne Room fight...


Personally I did not enjoy Force Awakens and walked out feeling that Disney had interferred too much with LucasFilm as all we got was a repeat of the mistake JJ made with Star Trek: Into Darkness; trying to remake a past classic but devoid of what made it so memorable. We waited decades to see what happened after the awesome ROTJ and we got..."just slap a few Ties and X-Wings in the sky and...oh, there was a desert planet too. And don't forget Darth Vader and his Stormtroopers. Hey - we mustn't leave out the Death Star neither!". Seriously, Dave Filoni worked bloody hard to turn the prequels into something special with Clone Wars( actually felt like a second childhood! ) and Disney comes in with that crap. It was basically a sub-par new hope. JJ is a solid director, and I loved the new cast, but there is more to SW than palming us off with fanboy-stormtroopers and a knock-off Darth Vader.

Thankfully, The Last Jedi could be summed up as its own film, where just as you think its another rehash of Empire and bits of Jedi, it goes in a different direction. Its also more unique in its influences too, separating it from the other movies; Memphis Belle( starfortress assault ), The Two Towers( the race to safety on Crait mirroring Helmsdeep ) and something rather new for Star Wars - a casino planet with alien horse races, and a reason as to the cause for the galaxy going to pot, being a nod to the prequels - which made me happy that the prequels were not forgotten. I liked how Luke defeated Kylo Ren by not giving him the satisfaction, by trusting in the force and not a cheesy lightsaber duel - a very cool nod to a similar situation in Dark Empire.

The Last Jedi was far from the best SW movie and definitely has its share of headaches, but I genuinely enjoyed it and think the strong hate for the film has gone too far, where fans are being shouted down for honestly enjoying the movie. I really felt disappointed with TFA but no way in hell would I ever consider sending vile remarks and hate at the director and crew. Personally, it ruined last year when the only SW news coming in was "The Last Jedi sucked", "Fans are not happy" and "Rian Johnson should be sacked"...especially when they acted as if they spoke for all of us.

But thats just how I felt about. Thanks to Last Jedi I can enjoy The Force Awakens better as it leads into something better.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/18 23:54:24


Post by: Backfire


 Hulksmash wrote:
I disagree. I feel like Kylo and Rey both grew in 7 and 8. I get not liking things in 8 like the side quest and really anything to do with Finn and the starship chase. But the other half with Rey and kylo was still good and both showed development


Yeah I don't get the whole "no character development" claim. Rey, Kylo and Poe had plenty of it. Finn, maybe less so. Whole Deathstar gun-scene in the end of TLJ was to showcase (admittably in somewhat contrived fashion) that Poe had learned that bravado and guts do not always carry the day.

Besides, you don't always need character development arcs. Leia does not really develope as a person or character in OT. She is introduced to us as a highborn diplomat, spy and a leader who can take care of herself. She ends the series as pretty much same, except for her Skywalker and Force connections which are revealed to her in the end. She is already trained and experienced and doesn't need to 'grow' in same way as Luke who ends up almost a different person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote:
Thinking further on Rey being a pilot - there is some suggestion she had previous experience with at least the Falcon.


IIRC she says in the movie that she had not flown Falcon before. It is implied she has flown the other ship, which was blown to pieces. I always took Falcon's awesome maneuvering as a quality of the ship itself - it's not a standard variety freighter - rather than Rey's amazing piloting skills.

From meta perspective, Rey is a pilot because Finn is not. Since they estabilished that Finn is only interested of helping Poe because he can fly him out of the First Order, they could not have given Finn piloting skill. This provides convenient reason to stick Rey and Finn together, he lost his first pilot and needs another one. Other than that, Rey's piloting skills play little role in the movies.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 00:41:16


Post by: trexmeyer


That last point about Rey's piloting skills is a good one and I think many people miss it.

Luke and Han are better pilots.

Luke blew up the Death Star and dropped an Imperial Walker with a tow cable.
Han made the Kessel Run (not as impressive on the big screen), shot down Vader (even though he blindsided him), evaded the Executor after Hoth, and managed to escape the first Death Star.

Rey dodged a couple of Tie Fighters and was promptly caught by Han.

Rey's piloting looks more impressive because all modern film has action and CGI ramped up to 11 in comparison to older films. You can't really compare visuals across films because films are product of their time. It's the same with the lightsaber duels. Had the OT been made in the 2000's it would have likely been just as flashy as the PT duels.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 04:15:56


Post by: Lance845


Speaking of SW toys being inconsistent as feth....

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Search?HideSoldOut=true&Series=2343&PageSize=50&SortOrder=New&Brand=2308&utm_source=retail_news&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bigbadtoystore-retail&utm_content=

There is now a "Vintage" collection of 3.75" figures being made that includes classic, prequel, and new trilogy figures.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 04:24:59


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Peregrine wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do people think that removing parts from ships allows you to become intimate enough with them to fly? There tends to be mostly knowledge of where ship parts are supposed to be and what are good enough to be valuable.. But flying one?


OK. As I explained. We know Rey is a pilot. She said so, then proved so.

If you demand a full explanation on-screen, perhaps with a montage? Should we start we each character's actual birth? Because other than Luke and Leia, there's no reason to believe, by extension of your logic, that just because someone is an adult, that they were ever born.
That's trying to pitch the ball to the outfield instead of to the batter. You can do better then this.

She said she could pilot, but nothing gives any indication she could. Yes, I would've been satisfied if we even got the barest hint of a descriptor that she might've taken a joyride in the Falcon when Unkor Plutt wasn't looking. That she might've flied some still semi-working ships home for money/food.



Do you also complain when someone in a modern setting drives a car without first showing them attending driving school?
Not a comparable analogy. I would complain if someone who has only driven cars somehow flies a plane just as well without being instructed.

I do find it funny that the Novelizations decided to state "She learned from Star Destroyer Training simulations". Which actually would be quite more plausible to me.. Since you'd theoretically find such training sinmulations in all the wreckages of star destroyers.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 04:30:54


Post by: epronovost


 Vulcan wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
The central plot of ESB is the same of the whole trilogy - following Luke Skywalker on his Hero's Journey. The rebellion against the empire is just the background on which the story is told.


The same could be said for any movies. They are just the story of the character and everything else is just the background on which the story is told. All stories are the story of a character growth or development.



Except for VII and VIII, in which no character growth or development occurred.


In episode VII Rey is a relunctant hero and doesn't accept her role as a Jedi until the end of the movie. Finn wants to run away not fight against the First Order until Rey gets captured. In episode VIII Rey comes to peace with the fact that her parents abandoned her and are never coming back, thus solving her greatest angst and childhood delusion. She also discovers that her enemies might not be simple monsters, but people too. Finn learns how to look past his fear, but also his rage thanks to love and friendship. In episode VIII, Luke learn how to let go of the past and give hope for tomorrow. In Episode VII, Han rediscover what it is to be a father (but yes, it kills him). Poe realise that he is but part of a greater movement that cannot rely on individual heroics alone to thrive and survive, but also on patience, prudence and teamwork.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 04:43:26


Post by: Peregrine


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Not a comparable analogy. I would complain if someone who has only driven cars somehow flies a plane just as well without being instructed.

I do find it funny that the Novelizations decided to state "She learned from Star Destroyer Training simulations". Which actually would be quite more plausible to me.. Since you'd theoretically find such training sinmulations in all the wreckages of star destroyers.


Of course it's a comparable analogy. In the real world driving a car is an extremely common skill, so if you see someone in a movie set in the modern world driving a car you don't question it. You just assume that at some point off-camera they learned to drive. In the Star Wars setting flying a starship seems to be an extremely common skill, so if you see someone in a Star Wars movie flying a starship you just assume that at some point off-camera they learned to fly. The fact that flying a plane in the real world is limited to professional pilots and a handful of dedicated (and well-funded) hobbyists makes it a rare and remarkable skill in a movie set in our world, but that doesn't mean that we should make the same assumptions about the Star Wars universe.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 09:24:14


Post by: Backfire


Did Finn pilot a starship in TLJ? I don't remember. He had Rose do the piloting, no?
But he was piloting an attack speeder, something he probably was not trained as a Stormtrooper.

Getting back to teaser, I wonder what's the point of the TIE fighter scene. Why doesn't the pilot just shoot Rey? If the orders are to take her alive, ramming her is counterproductive for that goal too.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 09:57:07


Post by: Mr Morden


Backfire wrote:
Did Finn pilot a starship in TLJ? I don't remember. He had Rose do the piloting, no?
But he was piloting an attack speeder, something he probably was not trained as a Stormtrooper.

Getting back to teaser, I wonder what's the point of the TIE fighter scene. Why doesn't the pilot just shoot Rey? If the orders are to take her alive, ramming her is counterproductive for that goal too.


I assume its just a training exercise with her proving her new abilities - likely end of montage.....


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 12:29:26


Post by: Frazzled


 Vulcan wrote:
 Hulksmash wrote:
I disagree. I feel like Kylo and Rey both grew in 7 and 8. I get not liking things in 8 like the side quest and really anything to do with Finn and the starship chase. But the other half with Rey and kylo was still good and both showed development


Okay, that's a fair criticism of my statement.

But when your villain shows more character development than most of your heroes, your story has problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the ‘must be Endor’ thing.

Number of issues with that.

First, it could be one of the moons of Yavin.

Second? Those were massive explosions. Who knows where each piece of debris might finally have fallen foul of gravity? I’d need to review ROTJ again, but I’m fairly sure the main gun of the second Deathstar was pointing away from the Forest Moon? That would mean it was asploded out and away from it.

Third? Bits of the first Deathstar were used, post Endor, to assemble ‘New Yavin’. Could be part of that, and who knows where that might’ve ended up?


Sticking strictly to what's shown onscreen, the first Death Star was blown into lots of (relatively) tiny pieces. There certainly wasn't a big enough piece of the 'main gun' left to be recognizable.

On the other side, the last time we see the second Death Star, as the Millennium Falcon flies away, it's clear there are explosions gutting the insides... but the outer skin is still intact.

By that alone, it has to be Endor or one of it's moons... and the Forest Moon would have the greatest gravitational effect on the now-unpowered hulk.


Guys...JJ Abrams... none of that means anything.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 12:36:44


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Battle of Endor again shows the Death Star obliterated.

All I’m getting at is the planet isn’t necessarily Endor. When something that big explodes that violently, your debris isn’t about to just lurk around the general vicinity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Backfire wrote:
Did Finn pilot a starship in TLJ? I don't remember. He had Rose do the piloting, no?
But he was piloting an attack speeder, something he probably was not trained as a Stormtrooper.

Getting back to teaser, I wonder what's the point of the TIE fighter scene. Why doesn't the pilot just shoot Rey? If the orders are to take her alive, ramming her is counterproductive for that goal too.


I assume its just a training exercise with her proving her new abilities - likely end of montage.....


Same here in terms of the assumption. It smacks of a training exercise, rather than a scrap.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 12:43:38


Post by: AndrewGPaul


A few possible options:

The EU mentioned that the wreckage was either sucked into hyperspace by the detonation of the hypermatter reactor, or towed away by Alliance starships before hitting the forest moon. If so, this location could be anywhere in the galaxy

Or

we only saw one side of the forest moon of Endor from space, IIRC; perhaps it has a large sea on the other side?
(The image on Wookieepedia, taken from FFG's Rebellion boardgame does indeed show a large area of open water: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Endor/Legends?file=Endor_FFGRebellion.png )

Or

The moon was destroyed by the impact of billions of tonnes of material and what we see is the desolation remaining.

Or

apparently the gas giant Endor had several moons, of which the one with the Ewoks was one; perhaps some of the Death Star wreckage fell onto another one.

I'm just going to wait and see, myself.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 12:46:23


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Peregrine wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Not a comparable analogy. I would complain if someone who has only driven cars somehow flies a plane just as well without being instructed.

I do find it funny that the Novelizations decided to state "She learned from Star Destroyer Training simulations". Which actually would be quite more plausible to me.. Since you'd theoretically find such training sinmulations in all the wreckages of star destroyers.


Of course it's a comparable analogy. In the real world driving a car is an extremely common skill, so if you see someone in a movie set in the modern world driving a car you don't question it. You just assume that at some point off-camera they learned to drive. In the Star Wars setting flying a starship seems to be an extremely common skill, so if you see someone in a Star Wars movie flying a starship you just assume that at some point off-camera they learned to fly. The fact that flying a plane in the real world is limited to professional pilots and a handful of dedicated (and well-funded) hobbyists makes it a rare and remarkable skill in a movie set in our world, but that doesn't mean that we should make the same assumptions about the Star Wars universe.
Hm, this could potentially be true as a bias in my mind, but Rey being someone in a very destitute area is what calls it into question in my mind. I probably should've pointed to the fact that she would have had no access to learning how to fly in a normal day to day life of scrap-gathering purely for food/water tokens in order to continue existing. It's why I don't question her skills in combat as fighting in melee should come quite naturally to someone who has to brave a desert and huge expansive scrapheaps, and it's one of the reasons why I don't question her winning the Kylo fight in the first movie (Maybe the force bits, but her skills in melee combat are unquestioned)

I should've brought more issues to the issues of living as part of things rather then just overall access. Rey is quite willing to learn as far as I know, and could potentially pick up piloting quite well, but being in a very destitute "I must do this day in and day out" sort of survival situation brings it into question in my mind since it seems like she's constantly fighting for scraps from a very uncaring, and very much an awful person lording food and water over her head that if she does not do well she'd be left to starve and die. Which isn't exactly conductive towards the idea of being able to learn to fly.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 14:55:46


Post by: Peregrine


Rey is poor, but she still owns a hover bike and is willing to consider trading a droid (priceless by our standards) for some food. Tech that is miraculous by our standards is clearly so cheap in Star Wars that even a starving scavanger has it and knows how to use it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 15:54:33


Post by: Backfire


 Frazzled wrote:

Guys...JJ Abrams... none of that means anything.


Yepp. Anyone who thinks JJA cares about whether anything is consistent with earlier lore, estabilished setting or just generally accepted common sense, hasn't obviously seen "Into Darkness".


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 15:59:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


That also helps infer she’s a successful Scavenger.

And given what’s shes scavenging, that requires a knowledge of what’s what in Starships.

That she also knows how Unkarr modified the Falcon, and that it was a bad idea, shows she’s familiar with The Falcon specifically.

She declares she’s a pilot, then pilots the Falcon successfully (albeit to a degree of competence even she’s surprised about) all conclusively shows she’s flown The Falcon before.

And again. I am not saying ‘this is a good explanation within the film’. Just that it is there, so those claiming she couldn’t possibly be a pilot are objectively wrong in that opinion.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 16:23:07


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Oh yeah if she ends up knowing how to maintain the Falcon, and is a far better mechanic then Han "Slap metal bits on it" Solo or Luke "R2 fix everything for me" Skywalker I really would not be surprised. Chewbacca is exempt since it seems like he actually knows how to fix things.

Though it still makes me wonder why she didn't just fly off the planet in the Falcon before to... Anywhere that's a better life then what she's currently doing, but that's a different issue entirely.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 16:28:38


Post by: Dark Apostle 666


I thought the whole "why didn't she leave in the Falcon before" was explained by her insistence that her parents would be coming back for her - I think she said as much to Han when he offered her a job?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 16:29:31


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Because she was waiting for her parents to return.

That....that’s her whole thing in TFA. Even expressing a desire to return to Jakku, precisely because she expects her parent’s to come back. Any day now. Definitely tomorrow. Or the next day.

Did you actually watch and digest the film?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 16:35:02


Post by: ZebioLizard2


It.. has actually been a while. I watched TFA once in theaters at release. I watched TLJ twice, but I never went back to watching TFA..

I really should it seems. I'm getting some inconsistencies because it's been too long.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 17:11:50


Post by: skyth


 Vulcan wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
I actually did this exercise with the Empire Strikes Back awhile ago. The dialogue in the hospital on Hoth is utter gak. Even granting your point about the era it was written, it's still utter gak dialogue. I had to stop after Hoth, before I ruined the whole movie for myself.


The central plot of Empire Stikes Back, finding a new base of operation for the rebels is also left unresolved at the end of the movie and never mentioned again. It's not even adressed in the following one. Then again second movies in trilogies frequently have this problem.


The central plot of ESB is the same of the whole trilogy - following Luke Skywalker on his Hero's Journey. The rebellion against the empire is just the background on which the story is told.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote:
Thinking further on Rey being a pilot - there is some suggestion she had previous experience with at least the Falcon.

The Falcon belongs to Simon Pegg's character "Unkar Plutt" at the start of TFA and we do know that Rey was left in his care during the jedi-vision sequence. Rey knows that the Falcon hasn't flown in years and is familar with the interior working of the ship. We also know that Rey is on her own now...perhaps due to a falling out with Unkar Plutt or that he simply no longer had use for her. Perhaps Unkar felt Rey was more trouble than she was worth(due to her obsession becoming a problem?) and turned her loose, leaving her to fend for herself...

It is possible that Rey was part of his crew when he did fly the Falcon and Rey was a ship's hand. Maybe Unkar showed her the controls during trips so he could focus on managing the rest of the crew or whatever was more important at the time. She did seem comfortable in the role of co-pilot while Han was flying, and maybe that was her role on Unkar's crew - able to watch a real pilot in action? As we find her she was no longer in a position to fly the Falcon and turned to scavenging to survive, becoming familar with the interior workings of other ships such as the wreaked star destroyer, and an X-wing( she wore a rebel helmet in one scene ).


Plausible. Adding "I know, I used to crew on it!" to her line saying "It's a piece of junk" would have explained that away and her being able to fly it is explained. It would have been a stretch for her to fly it like it was a starfighter instead of a piece of junk, but hey, The Force.

Still want to know where she got all her force training from for stuff like reading Kylo Ren's mind (Leia resisted mindprobes untrained, so there is that precedent), mindtricked a Stormtrooper, and became an expert lightsaber fighter.


Same place Luke learned how to do telekinesis between ep 4 and 5 (Something that Obi-wan never showed him how to do )

But in the interogation scene, it clearly shows her reaching into Kylo's mind (likely on accident at first) when he reaches into hers. It's not inconceivable that she learned about various force abilities then. She's also shown failing to use the mind trick at first.

The lightsabre fighter thing, if you're talking about Starkiller base, she was not an expert and it showed. She only beat Kylo because he was severely injured.

If you're talking about the throne room, she was shown training with the sabre on the island while waiting for Luke.

And for that matter, why RJ was allowed to leave such AWFUL choreography in the Throne Room fight...


I quite enjoyed that fight.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 18:19:41


Post by: epronovost


 skyth wrote:


And for that matter, why RJ was allowed to leave such AWFUL choreography in the Throne Room fight...


I quite enjoyed that fight.


I personally think it's the second best choreraphy in Star Wars movies, the best being the one in the Phantom Menace. Of course, the choregraphies of the first trilogy were much more simple and used more standards kendo stances and strikes. They also had technical difficulties linked to the material and special effects used to make the lightsaber. I liked the fact that Snoke's guards all had a unique weapon which gave the fight an interesting look and is much more complex then a duel like most other lightsaber combat in the live action Star Wars.

Honorable mention to the Maul, Savage and Palpatine fight in Clone Wars, probably their best duel in the animated version. Come to think of it, if you want a cool fight you need Maul in it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 18:40:40


Post by: Frazzled


You would think someone would have figured out to equip your guards with shotguns by now if lightsabres are around. Ash and his boom stick would have ended the jedi in their tracks...



Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 18:49:28


Post by: Backfire


 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
I thought the whole "why didn't she leave in the Falcon before" was explained by her insistence that her parents would be coming back for her - I think she said as much to Han when he offered her a job?


Also, I think Falcon and that other ship there were still actually owned by somebody else? I mean, they were still functional starships and thus pretty valuable. So if she just stole one, she might have got somebody after her. Obviously life-and-death situation might change that perspective.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 22:07:10


Post by: Vulcan


 skyth wrote:

And for that matter, why RJ was allowed to leave such AWFUL choreography in the Throne Room fight...


I quite enjoyed that fight.


Then you missed the two spots where Rey should have died like a chump - once because her back was turned to an attacker because the actress missed the timing, and later when they had to CGI out one of the two daggers being held by the attacker that briefly pinned Rey... instead of carving her kidneys out.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 23:13:22


Post by: SamusDrake


Where the other films have great choregraphy, Luke's confontation with Vader on Cloud City was a triumph of substance over style.

A New Hope ended on a Jaws-like finale where the fate of the galaxy was at stake and a single shot at the last moment decided it, whereas Empire - with no epic space battle - does the same with a traditional sword fight, that left its mark on not only the audience, but film history itself. The audience knew deep down Luke and Vader were destined to battle before they even got in the cinemas and was never the same again when they left it.

The battle is as follows; a tense gunslinger standoff, a game of cat-and-mouse, a no-holds bared battle and then a sudden defeat at the hands of evil. Finally comes the shocking revelation that unexpectedly opens a new chapter in the saga.

There is still a lot to enjoy in the other duels even if they don't quite have the same story impact. Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi would be close seconds. The Phantom Menace definitely had the best choregraphed sword play, though( the bit just before Obi-wan is disarmed by maul is incredible! ).

If any of the SW films could be classed as a thriller where there is no escape, then it would be The Empire Strikes Back.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/19 23:59:30


Post by: Backfire


 Vulcan wrote:

Then you missed the two spots where Rey should have died like a chump - once because her back was turned to an attacker because the actress missed the timing, and later when they had to CGI out one of the two daggers being held by the attacker that briefly pinned Rey... instead of carving her kidneys out.


All the SW fights have similar issues, for example ending of the Phantom Menace fight makes no sense whatsoever. At least they should have Obiwan strike Maul while he was jumping upwards, that would have made it look slightly more plausible. And in fact much cooler than that stupid flip which required Maul, guy with fastest reflexes in the Galaxy, stand still for 3 seconds and do nothing.

Movie fights are not realistic, pretty much every single 1 vs many fight is totally implausible. The point is to tell a story with a fight choreography. That's why ESB fight is the best.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 00:31:03


Post by: epronovost


Backfire wrote:
[All the SW fights have similar issues, for example ending of the Phantom Menace fight makes no sense whatsoever. At least they should have Obiwan strike Maul while he was jumping upwards, that would have made it look slightly more plausible. And in fact much cooler than that stupid flip which required Maul, guy with fastest reflexes in the Galaxy, stand still for 3 seconds and do nothing.


There were also positioning problem. The stuntman playing Maul threw a kick while his target was a feet to far, making it weird. It had to be corrected in post production, but it still looks awkward. In Return of the Jedi, the camera's view is obscured by scenery dring the final duel and many of Lukes blow would never have hit Vader since the two were too far appart. There are always little issues during fight scenes in movies. Very few are flawlessly executed, especially in North American movies.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 01:08:37


Post by: Peregrine


Backfire wrote:
The point is to tell a story with a fight choreography. That's why ESB fight is the best.


Exactly. That's why IMO the prequel and sequel fights are so overrated. They're flashy and full of CGI tricks that couldn't exist in 1977, but they have none of the substance of the OT and feel like little more than those "I discovered the lightsaber tool in photoshop" videos people used to make.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 12:09:39


Post by: Riquende


I've said it before, but it's always the RotJ duel for me, especiallt the last part where the music swells and Luke's anger causes his control to start slipping. In fact, despite ESB being 'the best' of the three, including the most iconic scene, all of my own personal favourite moments are in the other two.

I never got anywhere near the same feeling from any of the subsequent films, including even Rogue One, which I actually really like.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 13:12:42


Post by: AduroT


 Frazzled wrote:
You would think someone would have figured out to equip your guards with shotguns by now if lightsabres are around. Ash and his boom stick would have ended the jedi in their tracks...



Spoiler:


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 15:01:38


Post by: ZebioLizard2


That'd only work if you catch them off guard.. I mean Force push would just shove that flame right back at you when you think about it.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 15:48:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And that’s something that irked me for years, until Clone Wars.

Never seeing Jedi employ Force Powers during a scrap. Caught your opponent off guard? Why not try force repel or pull as the situation requires.

Things getting a bit hot and close? Force jump to better location.

Which, frankly, is all the more reason to love the Clone Wars series. It’s effing ace!


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 16:21:53


Post by: Lance845


It shouldn't irk anyone. Yoda says. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

The sith are the ones chucking rocks and gak at people. Even when Yoda and old man Duku face off yoda catches each of his attacks and places them aside. He never throws anything back.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 16:27:33


Post by: epronovost


 AduroT wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You would think someone would have figured out to equip your guards with shotguns by now if lightsabres are around. Ash and his boom stick would have ended the jedi in their tracks...



Spoiler:


Conisdering Star Wars has shown us Jedi repelling and shooting back solid shell ammunition or flames, I doubt this would work. Hell they even shown Vader stopping and pushing back a laser bolt with the Force and Kylo freeze one in place (and make it look easy). Even an unarmed Jedi looks capable of stopping deadly weapons and turning them against their opponent.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 16:33:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Lance845 wrote:
It shouldn't irk anyone. Yoda says. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

The sith are the ones chucking rocks and gak at people. Even when Yoda and old man Duku face off yoda catches each of his attacks and places them aside. He never throws anything back.


Yet all the fights we saw involved Sith. Where were their Mingy Chucky Powers, eh?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 16:36:48


Post by: Lance845


epronovost wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You would think someone would have figured out to equip your guards with shotguns by now if lightsabres are around. Ash and his boom stick would have ended the jedi in their tracks...



Spoiler:


Conisdering Star Wars has shown us Jedi repelling and shooting back solid shell ammunition or flames, I doubt this would work. Hell they even shown Vader stopping and pushing back a laser bolt with the Force and Kylo freeze one in place (and make it look easy). Even an unarmed Jedi looks capable of stopping deadly weapons and turning them against their opponent.


But they shouldn't be. In the Orig Trig the Jedi never use the force to kill. They use their LIGHT SABERS to attack. They use the force to know WHEN and HOW to strike, but they don't actually draw on the force to make do the actual swing or shoot the actual blast.

It's not until the prequels when that pretense gets dropped and the jedi start killing with the force. Though to be fair, they mostly do it to droids, which could be the excuse for why it's ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
It shouldn't irk anyone. Yoda says. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

The sith are the ones chucking rocks and gak at people. Even when Yoda and old man Duku face off yoda catches each of his attacks and places them aside. He never throws anything back.


Yet all the fights we saw involved Sith. Where were their Mingy Chucky Powers, eh?


I have seen the explanation that they all enter a battle meditation when fighting with the lightsaber. It's incredibly difficult to maintain but it gives them that foresight to know when and where to block, parry, and deflect. (It's also the reason everyone isn't just using the force to turn off each others light sabers mid swing.) Every time we see a Jedi push or pull or do some kind of force gak it's after they disengage and take a step away from each other.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/20 18:05:16


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Lance845 wrote:

But they shouldn't be. In the Orig Trig the Jedi never use the force to kill. They use their LIGHT SABERS to attack. They use the force to know WHEN and HOW to strike, but they don't actually draw on the force to make do the actual swing or shoot the actual blast.

It's not until the prequels when that pretense gets dropped and the jedi start killing with the force. Though to be fair, they mostly do it to droids, which could be the excuse for why it's ok.


IMO, I view it as a sign even the Jedi Order was corrupt by the time of the prequels.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 00:17:03


Post by: Backfire


 Crimson Devil wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:

But they shouldn't be. In the Orig Trig the Jedi never use the force to kill. They use their LIGHT SABERS to attack. They use the force to know WHEN and HOW to strike, but they don't actually draw on the force to make do the actual swing or shoot the actual blast.

It's not until the prequels when that pretense gets dropped and the jedi start killing with the force. Though to be fair, they mostly do it to droids, which could be the excuse for why it's ok.


IMO, I view it as a sign even the Jedi Order was corrupt by the time of the prequels.


Wasn't Mace Windu using a borderline Dark Side technique in combat?

Any way, I think it makes little sense that Force mind control is ok, but using Force telekinesis in combat would not be ok. And Yoda certainly used his powers offensively vs Palpatine.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 01:01:48


Post by: Crimson Devil


The Jedi Mind Trick is the most problematic power to me. Removing someone's free will, even for an instance just doesn't seem right.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 01:19:37


Post by: Lance845


Mace windus dark side technique is one that allows himself to enjoy combat without loosing himself in that enjoyment or falling/purseing that feeling into the dark side.

Hes the only jedi trusted to use it without falling.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 02:21:37


Post by: AegisGrimm


 Lance845 wrote:
It shouldn't irk anyone. Yoda says. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

The sith are the ones chucking rocks and gak at people. Even when Yoda and old man Duku face off yoda catches each of his attacks and places them aside. He never throws anything back.


Well, except for an entire Senate platform at Palpatine.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 02:23:06


Post by: Lance845


Yeah. The prequels are gak. We all know this.

They start off gak. They get slightly less gakky. And they end in a big pile of gak.

It doesnt change yodas original message to luke about how a jedi is supposed to use the force.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 03:20:26


Post by: LordofHats


 Lance845 wrote:
Mace windus dark side technique is one that allows himself to enjoy combat without loosing himself in that enjoyment or falling/purseing that feeling into the dark side.

Hes the only jedi trusted to use it without falling.


Mace WIndu developed the style with his friend, and only taught it to two others. His friend fell to the dark side. One student got lost in her lust for combat and died as a result, and the other fell to the dark side but only Yoda knew he was a double agent the whole time.

As a result Windu refused to teach the style to anyone else.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 04:31:48


Post by: Lance845


 LordofHats wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Mace windus dark side technique is one that allows himself to enjoy combat without loosing himself in that enjoyment or falling/purseing that feeling into the dark side.

Hes the only jedi trusted to use it without falling.


Mace WIndu developed the style with his friend, and only taught it to two others. His friend fell to the dark side. One student got lost in her lust for combat and died as a result, and the other fell to the dark side but only Yoda knew he was a double agent the whole time.

As a result Windu refused to teach the style to anyone else.


Probably true. I never read the book it came from. I get my info from wikis I read a long time ago (but in this galaxy).


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 04:44:58


Post by: Crimson Devil


 Lance845 wrote:
Mace windus dark side technique is one that allows himself to enjoy combat without loosing himself in that enjoyment or falling/purseing that feeling into the dark side.

Hes the only jedi trusted to use it without falling.


But Mace Windu did fall......



Out a window!



Thank You! I'm here all week.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/21 04:53:54


Post by: LordofHats


 Lance845 wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Mace windus dark side technique is one that allows himself to enjoy combat without loosing himself in that enjoyment or falling/purseing that feeling into the dark side.

Hes the only jedi trusted to use it without falling.


Mace WIndu developed the style with his friend, and only taught it to two others. His friend fell to the dark side. One student got lost in her lust for combat and died as a result, and the other fell to the dark side but only Yoda knew he was a double agent the whole time.

As a result Windu refused to teach the style to anyone else.


Probably true. I never read the book it came from. I get my info from wikis I read a long time ago (but in this galaxy).


It might have a few different versions.

I'm thinking of the history given in the original Clone Wars comic series by Dark Horse.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 13:40:30


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Lance845 wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You would think someone would have figured out to equip your guards with shotguns by now if lightsabres are around. Ash and his boom stick would have ended the jedi in their tracks...



Spoiler:


Conisdering Star Wars has shown us Jedi repelling and shooting back solid shell ammunition or flames, I doubt this would work. Hell they even shown Vader stopping and pushing back a laser bolt with the Force and Kylo freeze one in place (and make it look easy). Even an unarmed Jedi looks capable of stopping deadly weapons and turning them against their opponent.


But they shouldn't be. In the Orig Trig the Jedi never use the force to kill. They use their LIGHT SABERS to attack. They use the force to know WHEN and HOW to strike, but they don't actually draw on the force to make do the actual swing or shoot the actual blast.


Except for Luke force-choking those Gamorreans.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 15:09:18


Post by: Galef


To be fair, we don't know if Luke KILLED those Gamorreans, or just made them pass out. But in either case, Luke might not be the "best" example of a Jedi and even before the Prequels, it was hinted that Luke might be the first of a new kind of Force user that balance the light and the dark.
We can see this in his costume design, which is all black until the end in which we can see a white panel folded out as he talks with Anakin as he dies.

I also keep hearing how "Skywalker" in the EpIX title is the new "Jedi" or "Sith" as each 3rd part has eluded to a group of force users. 'Return of the Jedi', 'Revenge of the Sith', 'The Rise of Skywalker'.
The main issue I have with this theory is the missing "the" in front of Skywalker, which leads to think it does indeed to refer to an individual, not a group. Still could be a title, instead of a name though

-


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 16:14:37


Post by: Backfire


One shouldn't dwell too much on those things. In pretty much every martial arts movie ever made, master or sensei is careful to stress how these techniques are only for self-defence. Next thing you know, protagonist attacks the bad guy's base and beats up everyone there.

Personally the nonsensical "Jedi must stay celibate" thing from the prequels offends me much more.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 16:20:07


Post by: Captain Joystick


Lance845 wrote:Yeah. The prequels are gak. We all know this.

They start off gak. They get slightly less gakky. And they end in a big pile of gak.

I'd argue that Attack of the Clones is the low point for the prequel trilogy, it lacks the underlying enthusiasm Phantom Menace had and the qualified improvement we see by Revenge of the Sith, leaving us with the actors struggling with barebones direction and absent sets (people really dug into the performances of the younger actors which I felt was unfair given how much Jackson and Lee clearly struggle as well). And on top of it all it's just so boring.

Galef wrote:To be fair, we don't know if Luke KILLED those Gamorreans, or just made them pass out.

That scene, along with the black clothes and shift in attitude are supposed to plant the seed of doubt in the audience that Luke might actually fall to the dark side in the climax of the film. I always took it to be that: choke to incapacitate and not to kill, but EU authors have offered all sorts of alternate explanations including force illusions to confince the gammoreans they were choking and, through reflex, choke themselves.

Because that's way better than actually choking them right?


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 19:09:58


Post by: Crimson Devil


Backfire wrote:
One shouldn't dwell too much on those things. In pretty much every martial arts movie ever made, master or sensei is careful to stress how these techniques are only for self-defence. Next thing you know, protagonist attacks the bad guy's base and beats up everyone there.

Personally the nonsensical "Jedi must stay celibate" thing from the prequels offends me much more.


It's probably there to discourage misuse of the Jedi mind trick.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 19:13:55


Post by: Lance845


I just figured it was because luke was a gak jedi who had both his teachers die on him prematurely.

Ive said it before, lukes strength isnt being the best at anything. Hes not. Its his convictions. That he comes so close to falling and then pulls back. Luke does force choke a dude. Thats because luke is a feth up pretending to know more then he does and be better than he is because he doesnt have any other choice.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 19:33:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We also don’t know how corrupted Jedi teachings became over the centuries and millennia.

The whole monastic Puritan thing could well be the result of a past schism, where a more extreme element won out. It could’ve started to as ‘The Order comes before your family, but you can have one if you want’. Or even lighter interpretations.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 20:10:21


Post by: insaniak


Backfire wrote:

Personally the nonsensical "Jedi must stay celibate" thing from the prequels offends me much more.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that they had to be celibate, just that they were forbidden from attachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
Luke does force choke a dude. Thats because luke is a feth up pretending to know more then he does and be better than he is because he doesnt have any other choice.

I always saw that as Luke pretending to be a badass in the belief that Jabba would be more likely to respect a show of strength.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 20:17:31


Post by: AegisGrimm


Screw all the celibacy thing. To me Corran Horn's father will always have been a Jedi.

But maybe that's because Rogue Squadron was some of the best of the EU. Cool characters and epic space battles, just like Star Wars should be.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 20:17:51


Post by: Frazzled


I always thought it was because at that point Luke WAS a badass.

Also in the original series, right out it was said that Luke was Anakin's kid and there wasn't anything bad about that, just the regret Ben had about losing his friend to Vader. In the first series Jedi Knights were Knights not space priests. That only got weird in the prequels, which bulloxed everything up.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/22 22:02:07


Post by: Backfire


 Lance845 wrote:
I just figured it was because luke was a gak jedi who had both his teachers die on him prematurely.

Ive said it before, lukes strength isnt being the best at anything. Hes not. Its his convictions. That he comes so close to falling and then pulls back. Luke does force choke a dude. Thats because luke is a feth up pretending to know more then he does and be better than he is because he doesnt have any other choice.


I also think Luke is not particularly powerful Jedi. We sorta assume he must be special because he is the hero, but in the OT he is more like one-eyed guy in galaxy of the blind. Obviously it would be unrealistic to expect him to match the Emperor, with such a minimal training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:

Also in the original series, right out it was said that Luke was Anakin's kid and there wasn't anything bad about that, just the regret Ben had about losing his friend to Vader. In the first series Jedi Knights were Knights not space priests. That only got weird in the prequels, which bulloxed everything up.


It was something Lucas probably cooked up on the spot to make Anakin & Padme more of a 'star-crossed lovers'.
EU stories had plenty of Jedis married or in relationships.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/23 06:37:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


EU also had Yuuzhan Vong, and force sensitives being used as batteries.

Gotta take the rough with the smooth

As for Frazz’s point? Seems monastic Jedi were always Lucas’ intention, even if he didn’t get that over in the first three.


Episode IX Trailer, expected today @ 2019/04/23 06:43:32


Post by: insaniak


There are a lot of things that Lucas now claims were always the intention that never appeared or got a mention in the original trilogy.

Hell, even the number of movies he 'always intended' to make has changed over the years.