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There's plenty of examples of force users having more tech knowledge than they probably should. Look at young Anakin, making his own droid and pod racer.
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
SlaveToDorkness wrote: There's plenty of examples of force users having more tech knowledge than they probably should. Look at young Anakin, making his own droid and pod racer.
On top of this, keep in mind that Star Wars does not appear to have ...distractions...like we do. Just look at the skill set people in our own reality had 100 years ago compared to now. When you actually have to help out your parents at an early age and don't have video games or TV, you learn a LOT pretty quickly. Heck, even my own kids don't seem to have the same skills I had at their age, but they have the advantage of having both parents. I grew up with just my mom, so I had to help more than most.
Rey probably has tons of "down time" to learn lots of stuff
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/17 13:38:06
Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.
I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.
Swordwork in original trilogy was based on kendo. I suppose it might have actually looked fresh and interesting for most Western audiences. But sure thing, audience expectations and tastes had changed by the time prequels rolled out.
Whereas the athleticism and choreography is better on prequel swordfights, they tend to be crap in storyline terms. Only the first (Darth Maul fight) has some kind of weak storyline. Otherwise the fights are random collection of movements with no flow or storytelling. Last one (Ep III) is the worst.
In fact, original trilogy did not really even have "swordfights" if we define them as participants trying to land a decisive blow to win the fight. They were more like character interaction scenes with weapons used as form of communication. Particularly true for ESB.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.
The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).
It might have been from Alan Dean Foster’s ghostwritten novelisation.
All the things about "montages" to explain why character X is good at Y are missing the point.
Luke was "trained" in The Force by Obi Wan and Yoda not to explain why he was good at The Force, but to explain to the audience what The Force is about. By the time of Star Wars 7 we all know, and don't need to waste time having it explained over again.
This is also why Rey's character journey in the Jedi Island is different to Luke's journey in the Jedi Swamp. It's not about being trained in The Force. In the tunnel scene, Luke is being prepared to confront his father. Rey is being prepared to confront her own hopes and dreams.
Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.
I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.
"Much better"? What? In the OT, you could buy the Jedi as monks fighting a spiritual battle that happened to be accompanied by a physical battle, who used their foresight to jockey for the perfect position and moment to strike, while also allowing the force to guide their blocks and feints. The prequels look like the worst wire-fu, like a superhero video game instead of a battle of wills and ideologies taking place on a higher plane.
Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.
I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.
"Much better"? What? In the OT, you could buy the Jedi as monks fighting a spiritual battle that happened to be accompanied by a physical battle, who used their foresight to jockey for the perfect position and moment to strike, while also allowing the force to guide their blocks and feints. The prequels look like the worst wire-fu, like a superhero video game instead of a battle of wills and ideologies taking place on a higher plane.
Just substitute the phrase "Much better" with "more athletic" or "less like old men poking at each other with a stick" and you get the point.
Rey has plenty of dialogue to prove she'd at least know how to fly, she's familiar with Plutt's motor pool, she knows who he stole his ships from, she knows what modifications the Falcon has and she knows it's 'garbage'. After the chase scene she flat out states she's flown ships before and with the dialogue pertaining to Plutt's use of the compressor plus the flashback where she is left in his cruel care we know she's spent her life fixing and flying ships and her life as a scavenger plays into that.
She also flat out states she can't explain how she knew the forward flip maneuver would work, and that's supposed to be our first clue that she's force sensitive (because we've seen Phantom Menace and remember how Qui-Gon noticed Anakin was using the force subconsciously).
To be clear: the term Mary Sue is overused to the point where its lost its meaning. Today if your character can, through effort and training, achieve something the viewership can't after a lifetime spent on the couch, someone somewhere will call her a Mary Sue.
The part where that label sticks with people though, in my opinion, is the scene where she mind tricks the stormtrooper.
Everything else she does related to the Force is a believable manifestation of the overwhelming power that everyone in the movie seems to notice, but that one stands out because she did something so specific, expecting something so specific, failed, then tried again. It honestly feels like there was a scene missing, where like, Han explains to her that he saw Luke do that, or she sees Kylo do that, or Kylo does it to her. Everything else fits in with the line from Snoke about how the light rises to meet the dark.
Personally I would have had R2 with Kylo, and have Rey pull the restraining bolt off with the force, then have them both escape together. Fixing my two biggest problems with Force Awakens in one go.
The original and correct meaning of Mary Sue was a character inserted by the author, which represented the author's desire to be an effective character within the work, and had implausibly few flaws.
It now means a character you don't like and think they are too powerful.
Kilkrazy wrote: The original and correct meaning of Mary Sue was a character inserted by the author, which represented the author's desire to be an effective character within the work, and had implausibly few flaws.
It now means a character you don't like and think they are too powerful.
If there was ever an author insert leading a franchise it would be G. Lucas Skywalker
Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.
I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.
"Much better"? What? In the OT, you could buy the Jedi as monks fighting a spiritual battle that happened to be accompanied by a physical battle, who used their foresight to jockey for the perfect position and moment to strike, while also allowing the force to guide their blocks and feints. The prequels look like the worst wire-fu, like a superhero video game instead of a battle of wills and ideologies taking place on a higher plane.
Just substitute the phrase "Much better" with "more athletic" or "less like old men poking at each other with a stick" and you get the point.
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If the story is well written and the stakes clear, I would much prefer old men poking each other with sticks over anything we've seen in the prequel or sequel trilogies. The best use of the Force as a mystical power since the OT was freakin' Chirrut from Rogue One. I don't need the Force as a mutant superpower for ripped athletes because I already have the Spiderverse, MCU, X-verse and DCEU. More space monks fighting space wizards and less space heroes fighting space villains, please.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the sequels, Rey isn't the problem. She is not the only underdeveloped character who didn't earn her rewards. Nothing in the ST is earned, nothing develops from a strong sense of character and motivation, except for Kylo Ren. The movies are lazy and facile and focus overly much on the most shallow interpretation of what Star Wars is, and it's not like Star Wars has hard to reach depths.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/17 15:34:35
Only thing "Mary Sueish" in Rey is her sudden acquiring advanced Force powers with no foreshadowing. I put that more in category of generic crap writing (equivalent to bunch of other daft stuff in TFA, like Starkiller base) than some "Mary-Sue" insertion. Other than that, her skillset is hardly implausible. She is skilled mechanic and fighter because she needs to be that to survive. Obviously she had done piloting jobs for local crime lords before.
In similar fashion, I do not think Luke's combat and flying skills were implausible. A farm boy on a planet with many hostile creatures is likely to be a good shot. He has obviously flown some combat speeders or atmospheric fighters previously and probably flown starfighters in simulators. Star Wars universe ships seem to be quite easy to operate once you know the basics. Number of times you see people hopping on a new ship and just start flying. Writers don't want to get bogged down in details like this, but it is easy to justify in-universe too. Galactic Republic was/is technologically pretty stale place and probably starship interfaces have become standardized to high degree. Kinda like smartphones. Know the basics and you can do lot of stuff even if you never have used it before.
Proper Mary Sues are usually portrayed as extremely smart, able to outwit everyone. Rey hardly fits the bill. I doubt actual self-insertion writers would want to project themselves into a character who is so obviously naive.
PS. Thought experiment. What if Poe Dameron was a girl, with all that same smartass attitude, verbal prowess, bravado and truly insane piloting skills? Would people complain that she is a Mary Sue?
Poetia Dameron would still come into the story as the Resistance's top agent, right? With characters swooning for her like she was Ace Rimmer? That's not Mary Sueism, that's character establishment. And if the actress who played her was as talented as Oscar Isaac, she'd probably be just as popular.
For the sequels, Rey isn't the problem. She is not the only underdeveloped character who didn't earn her rewards. Nothing in the ST is earned, nothing develops from a strong sense of character and motivation, except for Kylo Ren. The movies are lazy and facile and focus overly much on the most shallow interpretation of what Star Wars is, and it's not like Star Wars has hard to reach depths.
Disney SW movies are basically Cargo Cult versions of original movies. They imitate outer appearence of the originals and attempt similar things but individual pieces don't fit.
It's like Boba Fett coming into ESB able to sass Vader without getting force choked--that just lets you know where he stands as a character. If Fett started out as an orphan and then just stumbled his way into a scene about him sassing Vader without getting force choked, that would be a JJ Abrams film.
For the sequels, Rey isn't the problem. She is not the only underdeveloped character who didn't earn her rewards. Nothing in the ST is earned, nothing develops from a strong sense of character and motivation, except for Kylo Ren. The movies are lazy and facile and focus overly much on the most shallow interpretation of what Star Wars is, and it's not like Star Wars has hard to reach depths.
Disney SW movies are basically Cargo Cult versions of original movies. They imitate outer appearence of the originals and attempt similar things but individual pieces don't fit.
Yes. That is my take exactly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/17 15:42:38
The contrast with Rey is that there is *no* on-screen explanation of how a scrapper who lives alone in a wasteland can go from a speederbike to performing high-stakes aerial maneuvers in a battered old freighter in literally moments, or how she can manifest force powers with zero training or understanding of them that were used in the OT to indicate the massive gulf of power and knowledge between the young apprentice and the wise old master, or how she can go from fending off other scavs and the odd animal with a big stick to a lightsaber duel with possibly the second most powerful dark sider in the galaxy in the space of a day or so.
Though, when she meets the most powerful Dark Sider, she is squashed like a bug. So much for her awesome powers!
Mind you, Dark Side is supposedly not stronger, but every time topmost light siders meet the dark side masters, they are overpowered. Weird! Surely Yoda was not lying??
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/17 15:59:46
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You mean you've got nothing to explain why she couldn't/shouldn't have learned to fly, yeah?
See my other post just above for more info to support.
Technically, Rey is completely amazed by her capacity to fly the Falcon like a pro. Se might have had a cursory knowledge of flight thanks to her life as a scavanger (she indeed knows what is what and how it works). To me her amazement is simply a side effect of her instinctive control of the Force. It was already shown in previous movies that Force user can use it without training in moment of stress, danger, etc. Anakin could use it to predict the dangers of a crazy speeder race when he was a boy for example. It seems eveident to me that the explanation for Rey's ability to fly the Falcon like that was through the Force which acts a bit like a pool of knowledge. If the Force does connect the entire galaxy together, then the Force could be simultaneously be considered as a pool of knowledge of all living creatures in the galaxy (or at least of all its users, many of which are fantastic pilots). The idea that the Force could act as super-consciousness has already been established before and the idea that knowledge, memories and emotions could survive your death in the SWU has already been shown in Force ghost.Rey's abilities are explained. They just aren't spelled out in a character sheet manner.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/17 17:57:05
I’d even go so far as to venture the question of just how much an untrained Force Sensitive can achieve.
Jedi Mind Trick? If you want something, why shouldn’t that come naturally enough? One suspects the training is in honing the ability, rather than actually learning it.
Force Attract? Well, we see Luke pull that off in the Wampanoag Cave. And having wracked my brain, I can’t think of such a skill being seen prior on-screen. Sure, he’s a bit ropey at it, and it takes him a while. But that’s still quite a thing to do with no training, suggesting it may be an inherent ability. Ditto the kid at the end of The Last Jedi.
Anakin could see things before they happened. So again, that’s an inherent ability, rather than one acquired by study.
There’s even the very real possibility that different abilities are held by different individuals. Either just intrinsically known because ‘reasons’, or because they happen to be Force Powers their general lifestyle is helped by, and so naturally develop as a sort of ‘supply and demand’ thing.
There are all sorts of possible explanations, and counters to them. But as there’s nothing conclusively, explicit or concrete in canon, we’re all just speculating.
Now, let’s go back to ‘how come Rey could fly, she’s a junker’. We just have to accept she learned to fly at some point - and likely on a hyperspace capable ship, given her familiarity with the engineering of the Falcon. She says she’s a pilot, then flies a ship. That is not Mary Sue, that’s just a part of her skill set, acquired over her life (much of which we remain in the dark about).
Now I am not saying said explanations are objectively well presented. I’ll leave that to the individual to decide. But to claim ‘she couldn’t have’ when she could and indeed, did? I don’t get it.
As for her taking on Kylo Ren? We see early on in TFA that she’s actually pretty fighty, chinning Unkarr’s goons in short order with her staff. So if not necessarily trained, we can safely say she’s an experienced pugilist. The rest? The Force Did It. Because that’s been explanation enough for others in the series, no?
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creeping-deth87 wrote: People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.
Luke was ace pilot on X-Wing in his first flight in it. (btw, Han flies Falcon to Starkiller base).
Harry Potter opens with Harry, still a baby, killing Voldemort, main villain of the series...
Luke does not score five kills in his first flight in an X-Wing.
Furthermore, the T-65 X-Wing is built with the same controls and the same general handling as the T-16 Skyhopper Luke used to fly when he would bullseye womprats back in Beggar's Canyon. So he at least has that much experience. Testimony from Biggs Darklighter tell us Luke was "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim", probably exaggeration from a friend, but I'm sure Incom had that in mind when they made the controls from the T-65 the same as those of the T-16.
In the meantime, we still have no idea how Rey learned to fly the Millennium Falcon as if it were an oversized starfighter. Prior to that moment the only thing we see her fly is an oversized hoverbike.
Harry Potter is irrelevant because he's not bound by rules established by six previous movies of Canon as Rey SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
Ahh, but my point is the similar controls thing is expanded universe knowledge. It’s not mentioned at all in A New Hope. Indeed, the X-Wing and T-16 Luke mentions being able to bullseye Wamp Rats with? Nothing to suggest they’re made by the same Corporation. Indeed, there’s nothing to say what a T-16 actually is.
Was it’s Luke’s landspeeder, and he’s referring to drive by blasting out in the dunes? We don’t know. All we know about that particular vehicle is that it’s not an XP-38, a newer model, demand for what Luke’s ride is has gone down. Why? We dunno. Is XP-38 a make or a model? Is it the same make as Luke’s? We don’t know.
This is why it irks me when people forget to parse movie knowledge from spinoff media knowledge. And yes, that includes tie-in novelisations.
Again, this is not to say people critical of the new trilogy therefore need to Drink Their Milk And Shut Their Mouth. I’m not saying any of TFA’s in-movie explanations are good. Just that they are there, despite what others might remember.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.
The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).
That's a fair point.
Of course, Biggs still tells his flight leader that Luke was the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim, and Luke is the one telling Wedge Antillies that hitting a two-meter target while flying down a canyon 'isn't that hard'.
Where is that testimony about Rey? Nowhere. She just does it and a sequel later we STILL do not know how.
The same thing with her uncanny force skills. She beats Kylo Ren with force skills, she beats him handily with a lightsaber she's never used in combat before (which is like a hardcore quarterstaff expert picking up a fencing foil and winning gold at the Olympics first time out), and in the second movie she matches him in force skills AGAIN... with zero explanation.
Luke may well have been a prodigy and learned everything way too fast, but at we got to see him get a LITTLE training.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You mean you've got nothing to explain why she couldn't/shouldn't have learned to fly, yeah?
See my other post just above for more info to support.
No, there are plenty of reasons why she shouldn't. You've just clearly decided not to listen to them.
I was quite looking forward to seeing, in VII, WHY Rey could do all those things despite being a junkyard scavenger (not my first choice to pilot an aircraft in combat, not my first choice to go up against even a partially trained 'sorcerer'). It was never delivered, and instead we got 'GIRL POWER YEAH AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU'RE A SEXIST BIGOT!'
The contrast with Rey is that there is *no* on-screen explanation of how a scrapper who lives alone in a wasteland can go from a speederbike to performing high-stakes aerial maneuvers in a battered old freighter in literally moments, or how she can manifest force powers with zero training or understanding of them that were used in the OT to indicate the massive gulf of power and knowledge between the young apprentice and the wise old master, or how she can go from fending off other scavs and the odd animal with a big stick to a lightsaber duel with possibly the second most powerful dark sider in the galaxy in the space of a day or so.
Though, when she meets the most powerful Dark Sider, she is squashed like a bug. So much for her awesome powers!
Mind you, Dark Side is supposedly not stronger, but every time topmost light siders meet the dark side masters, they are overpowered. Weird!
Surely Yoda was not lying??
And then most powerful Dark Sider dies like a chump, undermining his power as a Dark Sider.
This was ANOTHER big problem with VIII.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/17 19:10:45
People act as if that was the first time ever she could ever have possibly flown a ship.
And that’s pulled right out of thin air as arguments go.
Who taught Luke to fly? Come to that, who taught me to drive? It doesn’t matter. We need only know that the person is capable. The rest is needless backstory.
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People act as if that was the first time ever she could ever have possibly flown a ship.
And that’s pulled right out of thin air as arguments go.
Who taught Luke to fly? Come to that, who taught me to drive? It doesn’t matter. We need only know that the person is capable. The rest is needless backstory.
I don't agree... but I can see where you're coming from. Fair enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/17 19:15:00
It’s a reflection of Luke and the Emperor’s chat. “Your overconfidence is your weakness”
Snoke was skimming thoughts, that much was clear. Yet he was so sure of himself, he interpreted things wrongly. He didn’t die from incompetence. He didn’t die from Deus Ex (well, no more than anyone else that’s a fictional character!). He died from arrogance. He seemed blind to any other take on Ren’s feels than his own. Yes it’s a Trope, but it’s a classic one.
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Aunt Beru on Luke being held back from the Imperial Academy: "he's got too much of his father in him, Owen."
Later, Ben tells Luke that his father was the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy.
In the Cantina Han says "but who is going to fly it Kid? You?" and Luke replies "You bet I could! I'm not such a bad pilot myself!".
During the escape from Tatooine, Han scaulds Luke "Travelling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops boy!"...
And lets not forget the part where he shoots Wedge down...
Rey seems to make sense in that she lives on a planet that is practically a spaceship graveyard and a skilled scavenger - at least enough to become familar with the workings of a ship. She has some connection to the chap who currently owns the Falcon and knows a good ship when she sees one. We know she is unwilling to leave Jakku - a planet only oppressed by those with basic resources such as food and water and petty street gangs. I think an intelligent young woman such as herself would have made an easy-to-recruit ship hand, and the passing ships were probably as puzzled as Han was when she declined his offer...
Coupled with her force ability - similar to Anakin in Phantom Menace - her reflexes are really good. And she does share the street smart of Han...
When watching TFA for the first time, I only questioned Rey's character when she began showing off her amazing force powers without any hint of prior training - save for her good flying reflexes and street fighting ability...
