Switch Theme:

Episode IX Trailer, expected today  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

Speaking of R2, did I miss him in the Trailer, or is he just not in it?
Seems odd to not have him in it. Does JJ hate R2 or something?

Anyway. I have a theory about Snoke and Palps.
Well, mostly Snoke. I think he mind-manipulated more than just Kylo & Rey.
I think he subtly manipulated Ben Solo into the darkside, and indirectly tricked Luke into thinking his thoughts we much darker than they were, potentially even giving Luke just a slight mental nudge to ignite his saber in front of Ben.

That would better explain why Luke, the optimistic hero from the OT who turned Space Hitler back to the light, would even contemplate killing Ben for his dark thoughts.
Next, I think Snoke planted the images of Kylo and Rey in each others thoughts when they "touched" hands.
He showed Ben coming back to the light to Rey, because that would draw her to him. And he showed Rey's "parentage" to Kylo because that is the ideal "revelation" that Kylo could use to turn Rey to join him.

But that doesn't make it true. Rey can still be a Skywalker who was left in the care of the people she "remembers" as her parents that sold her to Unkar Plutt.

I'm not sure how Palpatine fits into all this, but I can easily see him working behind the scenes to keep the galaxy divided until he can resurrect himself. But I am sure there is a connection between him and Snoke.

EDIT: Side observation about the Trailer: Several things symbolically show this will NOT be like TLJ. TLJ "killed the past" in many ways including physically destroying Kylo's mask and the Skywalker light saber. Both of which are repaired in RoS. Add on the "thousands of generations of Jedi knowledge" and the return of Palpatine and I think we can safely assume RoS will NOT be like TLJ.

And JJ has also confirmed "All our heroes will be together on a single quest" rather then split up doing other stuff.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/15 13:30:50


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 LunarSol wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.
Agreed. Kylo may well be DYING at that point in TFA, yet his power with the darkside keeps him going.
Rey is also tapping into the force for the first time and therefore has less control over it, therefore IT has control over her.

So from this point of view, Rey did NOT beat Kylo in TFA, the FORCE beat a near dead Kylo.
But nevertheless, I don't feel the story NEEDS them to have any sort of rematch. Rey and Ben solo will likely just need to put down Palpatine for good.

In 40K terms, they need to destroy his soul the way the Emprah did to Horus.

-

   
Made in ca
Missionary On A Mission






Personally, I would be just fine if they found Palpatine lying in a heap on some ruined corridor of the Death Star debris, his body broken and unable to move, but kept alive through the the dark side, powered by nothing but his hate and anger even as his body decays.

 Galef wrote:
Several things symbolically show this will NOT be like TLJ. TLJ "killed the past" in many ways including physically destroying Kylo's mask and the Skywalker light saber. Both of which are repaired in RoS.

Rey repairing the lightsaber is actually a direct payoff of TLJ's message: the lessons of the past have value but are build upon by successive generations. The lightsaber breaks under the strain of the battle of wills between Rey and Renn just as the underlying philosophy of the Jedi broke under the changing of the times as early as the prequel trilogy. Rey keeps the lightsaber and repairs it - adding something new to bring it back to its former glory - she keeps the texts and will do the same thing, figuratively, to them.

That raises questions about Kylo Renn though - is he the one ordering the helmet be repaired? Has he abandoned his nihilistic approach to the past in the wake of his defeat on Crayt or is he doing so unwillingly, needing the symbol of the past to project authority?


I've heard it said that she can melt you with her eyes. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vulcan wrote:
Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.

Now which one is a Mary Sue again?


Both, but Luke a little bit more so in my opinion. Kylo Ren is supposed to be less powerful then Vader. Kylo's training was incomplete when he fought Rey while Vader was a confirmed master by then. Luke was a farm boy with no real combat experience. Rey was a vicious fighter and a suvivalist before her adventure started proper while Luke was more of an "insert your wish fullfilment fantasy" incredibly blend and normal person. In the end both characters are idealised human being that serve as a vehicle for wish fullfilment fantasy for pre-adolescent audience making them "Mary Sue" in the broad sense of the term. But, also, both character are good in my opinion. While I don't think the new trilogy is as good or better then the original one, I do think that Rey is one of the better part of the trilogy. She's an interesting hero and competently acted. The biggest problem of the new trilogy is the scenario which either lacks innovation or is executed in a sloppy fashion.

On the precise subject of the duel between Rey and Kylo, you were offered no less then three reasons as to why she managed to beat Kylo Ren. He was unbalanced by the fact he just killed his father, he was shot in the stomac by Chewbaca and in slashed in the arm by Finn. Finally he also underestimated her and allowed himself to be caught by surprise. During the fight against the guard of Snoke, the two of them appeared closely matched in terms of talent and we can assume that both character will have grown in power from the first to the last movie of the trilogy unlike Vader whose threat level was always constent. The confrontation between Rey and Kylo passed the Force Awaken is much like the confrontation between Luke and Vader in Return of the Jedi. The suspence and the importance of their next encounter isn't based on will Rey be able to beat Kylo, that's not interesting, but on will Rey manage to bring back Kylo to the Light or will she have the moral strength to kill him, something she failed on both account in her last encounter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/15 15:10:12


 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Southeastern PA, USA

 LunarSol wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.


They even underline the point by having a non-Force sensitive fight Kylo with a saber and hang with him for a while, something that would have been impossible based on past depictions of Jedi and Sith.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Personally, I would be just fine if they found Palpatine lying in a heap on some ruined corridor of the Death Star debris, his body broken and unable to move, but kept alive through the the dark side, powered by nothing but his hate and anger even as his body decays.

 Galef wrote:
Several things symbolically show this will NOT be like TLJ. TLJ "killed the past" in many ways including physically destroying Kylo's mask and the Skywalker light saber. Both of which are repaired in RoS.

Rey repairing the lightsaber is actually a direct payoff of TLJ's message: the lessons of the past have value but are build upon by successive generations. The lightsaber breaks under the strain of the battle of wills between Rey and Renn just as the underlying philosophy of the Jedi broke under the changing of the times as early as the prequel trilogy. Rey keeps the lightsaber and repairs it - adding something new to bring it back to its former glory - she keeps the texts and will do the same thing, figuratively, to them.


This.

That raises questions about Kylo Renn though - is he the one ordering the helmet be repaired? Has he abandoned his nihilistic approach to the past in the wake of his defeat on Crayt or is he doing so unwillingly, needing the symbol of the past to project authority?


I'm interested to know the meaning there myself.

My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Toronto, Ontario

People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 creeping-deth87 wrote:
All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films.


It's their only physical confrontation. There was no other in the next movie and the next one, if there is even another physical confrontation between the two, will not be determined a success or a failure based on who swings a lightsaber better. Even from a metacritical vision of the movie, hte idea that the hero wins the fight at the end is pretty much a given in this type of movie, the question is how and will the hero win the way he or she intends to win. Rey doesn't want to kill Ren, she wants to save him. Can she do that? In the TLJ she failed miserably at that.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 gorgon wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.


Kylo is already severely wounded at this point, bleeding out from a bowcaster bolt to the gut. There's a reason the movie takes time out earlier to have Han grab the thing and show off how strong it is, sending a trooper flying through the air on contact. Not that Kylo's supposed to be an all powerful monster either. Half of the point of his character in TFA is simply that he's a pale imitation of his grandfather.


They even underline the point by having a non-Force sensitive fight Kylo with a saber and hang with him for a while, something that would have been impossible based on past depictions of Jedi and Sith.


Going purely off the movies then yes, its the first time a non-force sensitive fights a Jedi or Sith and holds on for a while. However prior to that there was the Clone Wars. Then after that, they acknowledge that anyone can get that good with a Lightsaber if they practice.

Secondly, Fynn wasn't hanging with him, Kylo was playing with his food. Once his food got the lucky strike on him, you can see him get serious and that's when he beats Fynn.
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.

Oh, well no. The issues are at the hands of the writers/directors.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





It might be that Rey is the real chosen one.

She assumes that her parents were just that, but in the cave in Last Jedi she only sees mulitple copies of herself and finally...just herself in the "mirror". Then there is the title of the first movie "The FORCE awakens"...and its Rey that is the focus of the awakening. In ROTS, Palpatine hints that the midis could be influenced to create life...

Okay, so her parents might have just been a couple who assumed that role and Rey was too young to know otherwise. The whole cave scene is probably a hint that while Anakin was created under influence, Rey is actually the midi's natural product of their design for the chosen one. With such power the midis have probably guided her during her lonely existance on Jakku( able to live in relative peace and no problem for a being with a very large midi count - Rey is obviously a natural survivor ) but when confronted by a descendant of the "engineered" chosen one( a defective, unnatural version ) the midis decide to awaken Rey's real natural powers to ensure her survival so that she can bring balance to the force.

That at least would explain her quick recovery from being slammed against the tree( Finn only needed to buy the midis a little time to work their magic ) and ability to overcome problems other Jedi take years of training to accomplish. Although Snoke had her by the short-and-curlies, she does need guidence and possibly more time to "fully awaken". Leia obviously has had training, enough to escape the vacuum of space, so maybe she has given Rey enough guidence since the last film to be more intune with her inner midis. She might surpass Snoke in the new film( she is now doing awesome back flips, afterall )...

Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.


Well, I would say the actress has done the best with what she was given.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Got suckered into watching the trailer.

Could have just been another MCU movie as far as I'm concerned.

Part of what made the originals so great was their ability to make the extraordinary...ordinary. Yeah, there were Starfighters and giant landships and speeders and Stormtroopers, but they all felt like mundanr every day things in the setting. When you saw AT-AT's advancing in open order with scattered infantry support, it looked like reskinned real world military manuevers.

A Starfighter plowing along a for several kilometers at 3ft of altitude, acting more like a speeding train or car, right into a protagonist staring directly into the camera for their dramatic Marvel-esque backflip, does not fit the same way.

I suspect this will be much like the other recent flicks, a visually exciting couple of hours with a completely garbage narrative and plot. Bringing back Palpatine and the whole "every generation" thing just comes off as nostalgia bombing and pandering for its own sake, and the inner 12 year old who wants to play TIE Fighter just isn't getting the itch scratched.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/16 18:27:08


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grey Templar wrote:
 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, I find Rey's abilities far more believable than Luke's between New Hope and Force Awakens. I also think the actress has done a great job with Rey and that she's one of the better aspects of the current trilogy. None of my issues land at her feet anyway.


Well, I would say the actress has done the best with what she was given.


No argument there.

I may not like the way the characters have been written and directed... but I fault none of them for their depiction of that writing and direction.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

With Kylo's mask - surely this would be the third "copy" of the same mask? He drops the first one at the end of TFA - do you believe that, after being shot, sliced up and standing on an exploding planet his first thought will be "I'll go get my mask back?"

Seems unlikely. Copy number two gets smashed when Snoke takes the mickey. Snoke's dead now - Kylo will wear whatever he pleases. Get another mask out of the cupboard.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 creeping-deth87 wrote:
People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.


Luke was ace pilot on X-Wing in his first flight in it. (btw, Han flies Falcon to Starkiller base).

Harry Potter opens with Harry, still a baby, killing Voldemort, main villain of the series...

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.

The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
Speaking of R2, did I miss him in the Trailer, or is he just not in it?
Seems odd to not have him in it. Does JJ hate R2 or something?
-


R2D2, not really an all-terrain droid. They probably couldn't bring him there. Also personally, I am pretty sick of R2 by now. If we need token droid along, lets stick with BB-8.

Lando has very similar shirt he had in ESB. Has he not updated his wardrobe in 30 years? And Rey is dressed same as in TFA again. This is minor annoyance, but it reeks of "oh we need to dress them same so people would recognize them" -trope. Luke and Leia did not wear same damn outfits all the time in the original movies. Well, admittably Han did.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in southern England.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Got suckered into watching the trailer.

Could have just been another MCU movie as far as I'm concerned.

Part of what made the originals so great was their ability to make the extraordinary...ordinary. Yeah, there were Starfighters and giant landships and speeders and Stormtroopers, but they all felt like mundanr every day things in the setting. When you saw AT-AT's advancing in open order with scattered infantry support, it looked like reskinned real world military manuevers.

A Starfighter plowing along a for several kilometers at 3ft of altitude, acting more like a speeding train or car, right into a protagonist staring directly into the camera for their dramatic Marvel-esque backflip, does not fit the same way.

I suspect this will be much like the other recent flicks, a visually exciting couple of hours with a completely garbage narrative and plot. Bringing back Palpatine and the whole "every generation" thing just comes off as nostalgia bombing and pandering for its own sake, and the inner 12 year old who wants to play TIE Fighter just isn't getting the itch scratched.


I know what you mean.

Of course, the originals took WW2 footage and actin films for a lot of their combat visual design. The space fighting was based on Battle of Britain. The raid on the Death Star trench was based on the Dambusters.

Since those times film=making has been exposed to a whole lot of new influences such as Chinese acrobatic king fu, and superhero flicks. These kind of visual tropes have "leaked" into general action flick usage.

Petition to stop ratification of EU Article 13 on Internet Copyright

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They also feed into audience expectation.

Consider the rather staid lightsaber scraps of IV-VI. Very perfunctory, kind of fencing.

I-III? Much better. Actual proper jumpy-bouncy-hacky-slashy. It helped show off why a Jedi was such a threat in combat, beyond their laser sword being an excellent weapon.


Your version of "better" and mine are different. ESB's sword fight is epic. Tense, film noir full of menace.
I - III looks more like a video game.*

*I really did like the fight with Darth Maul. I thought that might be the second best fight.

Of course the best use of a sabre is the end scene for Rogue One.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And with regard to Luke, the whole 'Incom used the same controls on the T-16 as the X-Wing' is a spin-off media retcon.

The films offer no explanation as to how a Carrot Crunchin' Farmboy can fly a fighter, let alone with any degree of competence whatsoever, other than 'he used The Force'.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but it does irk me when people don't parse the knowledge they have about the earlier films from what was actually in them, and what was later explained through the old expanded universe. I mean, I can remember just sort of always knowing that Anakin was booted into Lava by Obi-Wan, hence becoming Vader. What I cannot tell you is where that information was first made known, and how I learned of it. I'm seriously talking since childhood (and I can remember not knowing about ESB or ROTJ until I was about four years old).


Wait, in what way is Biggs, in the film, talking Luke up as "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim territories" part of the EU? ANH doesn't sit the audience down for a montage of Luke training to fly the X-Wing, or have him give a monologue detailing his extensive training to operate aircraft, but it clearly indicates he has previous experience, and it never presents him as an unbeatable ace or anything - he takes damage, he has his arse pulled out of the fire by others, he gets help from his droid, he only survives to Use The Force Luke at all because Wedge and Biggs - at the cost of Biggs' life - hold off the enemy long enough. Everything the viewer needs to grasp that Luke is a decent but not unbeatable pilot who triumphs in the end based on mysticism and the sacrifices of others as much if not more so than his own abilities is right there in the movie, subsequent material added in the EU was exactly that, expanded, additional, extra, details, minutiae. It enriches the story as presented on-screen, it isn't *required* to explain it.

It's not required *at all* for Luke's force abilities, which only improve after multiple failures, and never exceed those of the villains. Even his victory over Vader with a lightsaber is explicitly due to his giving in to rage and hate and the dark side, which is specifically called out as being the quick and easy path that carries a terrible cost, and his actual final victory comes not through strength of arms, or raw force power, but through finally learning the lessons his mentors were trying to impart, rejecting the easy path, and inspiring the redemption of a foe.

It's is functionally, literally impossible for Luke to be a Mary Sue, because Star Wars is purposefully an entirely archetypal rendition of the hero's journey, and being a Mary Sue is incompatible with following that storyline.

The contrast with Rey is that there is *no* on-screen explanation of how a scrapper who lives alone in a wasteland can go from a speederbike to performing high-stakes aerial maneuvers in a battered old freighter in literally moments, or how she can manifest force powers with zero training or understanding of them that were used in the OT to indicate the massive gulf of power and knowledge between the young apprentice and the wise old master, or how she can go from fending off other scavs and the odd animal with a big stick to a lightsaber duel with possibly the second most powerful dark sider in the galaxy in the space of a day or so.

The problem with Rey's character is the same as the problems with the two new movies; in TFA, JJ was too busy with his usual desire to string together a bunch of "kewl stuff bruh" to care about things like pacing or character development, so the characters just do whatever he needs them to do in order to get his big blowout effects shot, and in TLJ, Johnson was too busy subverting expectations and pandering to the "YAAASS QUEEN" crowd to care whether it made sense for Rey to be the bestest force user ever. IE, in both cases, the problem was that the guy in charge has objectives other than solid characterisation and telling a coherent story. There's nothing inherent to Rey that makes her a Mary Sue, or at least makes her a fair facsimile of one(she technically has some flaws, but they're "flaws" in the same sense as someone listing their worst trait on a CV as "I like to work too hard"), but because neither JJ nor Johnson was willing to waste even a few moments of their grand masterpieces to tee up any of her triumphs that's how she ended up.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






It's the matter of the controls.

What ANH shows us is someone familiar with civilian craft, able to not only pilot a Fighter, but with a degree of competence that he can tackle trained enemy pilots with a decent level of success.

Other info we should be careful not to include? TIE Fighters not being shielded. All we know is that they're short range fighters - and normally are part of something akin to a Convoy or Carrier group (as we approach what's left of Alderran)

Rey? Finn says 'we need a pilot'. Rey replies 'we've got one', referring of course to herself. How is that any different at all from Biggs' comment about Luke? Both are single lines, with little justification or demonstration until we see them taking flight.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Toronto, Ontario

Backfire wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
People always bring up the 'but he was wounded by the bowcaster!' in defense of the Mary Sue allegations, yet always conveniently forget that Rey was thrown into a tree hard enough to fall unconscious . All the bowcaster does to Ren is drop him to one knee, he doesn't go flying off anywhere or pass out. Her beating him in the first movie saps any tension out of their confrontation in these films. She wrecks this dude who's been training for years, resists and even reverses a mind probe, and flys the Falcon as well if not better than Han himself. She's a terrible, shoddily written character.


Luke was ace pilot on X-Wing in his first flight in it. (btw, Han flies Falcon to Starkiller base).

Harry Potter opens with Harry, still a baby, killing Voldemort, main villain of the series...


Yodhrin said it better, but I'll paraphrase anyway. Luke was not an ace pilot. He nearly crashes into the death star, gets his bacon saved by his wing mates, and can only take the final shot because Biggs and Wedge throw themselves between Vader and Luke. You see him struggle, and that's why Luke doesn't come across even half as ridiculous as Rey does.

Oh and Harry Potter I can't stand either, so hardly a counter point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's the matter of the controls.

What ANH shows us is someone familiar with civilian craft, able to not only pilot a Fighter, but with a degree of competence that he can tackle trained enemy pilots with a decent level of success.

Other info we should be careful not to include? TIE Fighters not being shielded. All we know is that they're short range fighters - and normally are part of something akin to a Convoy or Carrier group (as we approach what's left of Alderran)

Rey? Finn says 'we need a pilot'. Rey replies 'we've got one', referring of course to herself. How is that any different at all from Biggs' comment about Luke? Both are single lines, with little justification or demonstration until we see them taking flight.


Because it doesn't make any sense dude. She's a scavenger who lives day to day, scrounging whatever she can for her next meal. How the hell does this homeless garbage goblin learn how to fly like that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/17 12:54:21


 
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






She did. That's evident.

Why the beef? How did a Farmboy learn to fly so well? When he's clearly a much needed pair of hands on the farm? Why shouldn't Rey already be a competent pilot?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
She did. That's evident.

Why the beef? How did a Farmboy learn to fly so well? When he's clearly a much needed pair of hands on the farm? Why shouldn't Rey already be a competent pilot?


This is a simple case of show don't tell, JJ has never been any good at that, it isn't a star wars problem, also a problem Lucas has but not as bad.

   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






We can also reasonably infer that Rey has some formal knowledge of how starships work - and likely has previously piloted the Falcon whilst it was owned by Unkar Plutt.

How?

1. She's a scavenger of starship parts. If you don't know what's what, you're not going to survive in that trade, as you're far more likely to bring absolute junk to trade, rather than useful bits and bobs with intrinsic value (doubly so when the sole buyer sets the price as they see fit).

2. She's clearly experienced within The Falcon. She knows about things changed by Unkar, and why they're not necessarily a good idea. To the point she's able to bypass/remove at least one on the fly.

Who taught her this? Who knows. Who cares. It's a level of knowledge she clearly has - whether people think she should or not.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Toronto, Ontario

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
She did. That's evident.



Well with a counterpoint like this, an actual argument isn't really possible.
   
Made in gb
Council of 13 Runner Up






You mean you've got nothing to explain why she couldn't/shouldn't have learned to fly, yeah?

See my other post just above for more info to support.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
 
Forum Index » Geek Media
Go to: