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Voss wrote:

Mary Sue actually has a very specific meaning. I don't think Rey really qualifies (mostly because Johnson made her just as irrelevant as everyone else in terms of the non-existent plot), but in TFA she's a lot closer than Luke is, literally materializing new powers out of the ether, and a skillset that's pretty contrary to the circumstances she grew up in.

Problem with Rey is that she gets her Force powers to extremely high level with no foreboding at all. Luke had to learn about Force three movies before he got his skills to decent level. Even Anakin had better foreboding for his powers. Other than that, Rey is hardly very Mary Sue.

Mary Sue is a term which is abused a LOT and most people don't actually understand what it refers to. Just because someone is overpowered and dominant in storylines doesn't mean she is a Mary Sue (or Marty Sue). Harry Potter is incredibly overpowered and dominant character, yet few people would say he is a Mary Sue (though they might if he was a girl, I suppose). Mary Sue is someone whose abilities define her/him because the person who came up with the character wishes to be her - and who doesn't want to be awesome in every respect?

Rey is skilled fighter, mechanic and pilot, but those are perfectly believable traits for someone who grew up in those conditions. Luke was too, and nobody questioned that. A farm kid on frontier planet would know how to shoot. (Rey can't, btw. I guess she could never afford a gun). Beyond that, Rey comes across as kinda dumb and naive, and those are very definitely NOT Mary Sue traits. Mary Sues always outsmart everyone, because that is cool. No wish-fulfillment writer would ever come up with a character like Rey.

Backfire wrote:

No wish-fulfillment writer would ever come up with a character like Rey.

In my opinion, hte trait that makes Rey a superhero-like character more than a "Mary Sue" is the fact she's a pleaser. She seeks the approbation, support and affection of parental figures (Leia, Luke, Han, even Kylo to a certain point). In my opinion, a "Mary Sue" isn't just an over skilled character with no real weakness that completely overshadow the rest of the cast (which Rey doesn't thanks to Poe for example), it's also a character that doesn't seem to "need" anyone. They are independant, clever and confident. Rey, while confident and somewhat clever (or at least resourcefull), isn't independant.

PS: I do agree that Mary Sue is an abused term.

Rey doesn't fit the technical definition of Mary Sue. She is however a very flat and poorly developed character. Same goes for really all of the new characters actually. No effort was made into fleshing them out or making them make sense.

In the original trilogy, we were given plenty of scenes where the different characters interacted with each other. Like when Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3P0 were all stuck on the Falcon in the asteroid field trying to fix the hyperdrive. We got Leia and Han working through their sexual tension, and 3P0s comical interruption. We got 3P0 talking to the hyperdrive and talking with Han and Chewie about it. Or when everybody was visiting Luke in the hospital.

No scenes like that exist in the new movies. We never get downtime scenes with the characters doing some mundane tasks while they just talk and develop their own character and relationships. Everything happens in action scenes.

Fynn's character in general is the worst character of them all though. He makes no sense in the universe. He's supposed to be a brainwashed child soldier. However, somehow he made it through at least a decade of indoctrination without the First Order discovering he was a sniveling coward. Except for some reason he will occasionally have moments of uncharacteristic heroism that a cowardly character like him should never have, at least not without some lengthy character development. If the First Order is really taking children and turning them into soldiers, they almost certainly have them bloody their hands early. Fynn should have killed at least a few people before getting sent into the actual front lines.

If they wanted a "bad guy who developed morals" character they should have instead made him a grizzled Storm Trooper officer, who only flips sides after being ordered to execute the civilians at the beginning of the movie. This also conveniently gives a good reason for him to know so much about the First Order's sensitive areas, like the power relay on Star Killer Base or the hyperspace tracking device on Snoke's ship. A janitor knowing all of those things makes ZERO sense.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Rey doesn't fit the technical definition of Mary Sue. She is however a very flat and poorly developed character. Same goes for really all of the new characters actually. No effort was made into fleshing them out or making them make sense.

Yes, something that I think was passable in TFA, but should have been resolved in TLJ.

But instead of expanding on the new cast, TLJ;

1) gave Fin a random love interest no one asked for or cared about mixed with a character arc that seems to just be a rehash of the same arc he did in the last movie (that he apparently didn't stick to)
2) confused Poe all over the place with a really shoddily designed arc that mostly made me angry at how stupid and pointless it was, but hey there's a gaudy lesson about "hope" in there so yey /sarcasm
3) spent most of Rey's screen time developing Kylo's character instead (what?) with the result being Kylo reaching maximum woobie angst lord who desperately needed child therapy (so basically prequel's Anakin jesus why are we rehashing prequel's Anakin?)

Meh, Poe's arc could be excused for how bad it was if it wasn't actually the most coherent one. They could have had a fairly standard "Unconventional hero defies orders to save the day" and actually done an ok job with it, but they had to go and subvert all the tropes.

His arc was the closest to being a good one, which makes it all the more painful that it was botched

Hmmm.

What wonder if Rey has had a chance to train new Jedi or not?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hmmm.

What wonder if Rey has had a chance to train new Jedi or not?

Well they have had 6 years or something - maybe one of those slave kids they left in favour of space horses will turn up and ask her for guidanace.

Although that would ask why isn't the First Alliance tracking them down to either train or kill.

These require an actual coherent plot and story so unlikely.

Backfire wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.

I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.

All those reasons sounds exactly why disney would do it. 7 and 8 were already copies of previous movies so why not copy villain to the 9th as well to rework of original trilogy

tneva82 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Well, we already knew he was back, hence the laugh and the actor appearing on stage. The question is *how* is he back; Actually physically present? Somehow a force ghost despite being a darksider? A malevolent spirit bound to the ruin of the Death Star II, Exar Kun-style? A holographic answer phone message reminding Vader to wash the dishes before he gets home?

That's the important bit.

I am pretty sure it is going to be just an interlude while they retrieve something important from wreck of Death Star and meet his Force ghost, or hologram or something.
Bringing Palpatine back as a villain, with zero foreboding from previous two movies would not work as a plot twist and it would demean ending of the original trilogy, AND work against their goal for trying to make new trilogy to stand on its own. It is hard to see how it would make sense storyline-wise, either, as Snoke was not a Sith, he clearly his own man and not someone who would believably be someone else's underling.

All those reasons sounds exactly why disney would do it. 7 and 8 were already copies of previous movies so why not copy villain to the 9th as well to rework of original trilogy

But that's not copying the villain, that's using the same villain. Disney wants to set up a new cast of heroes and villains, and employ the the old ones for fan service and giving a rub for new cast. And it's a right idea, even if it isn't working quite to the extent they hoped. "Palpatine's behind it all" is counterproductive for that goal, an admission that they can't come up with anything good themselves.

Is Palpatine behind it all?

We know from Disney’s other offerings, they do like a misleading trailer. Either scenes subtly different, or outright misdirection. Remember when ‘fans’ freaked out that Finn wasn’t the heir to the Jedi? And how we didn’t see Rey wield a lightsaber in the promos? Or even the toys?

Who knows what role Palpatine has in this? Or in what capacity? It could be a relatively cameo appearance. Could be a clone, the original or just a Force Spirit.

Or even a recorded hologram - like an equivalent of the Jedi "sacred texts", but for Kylo Ren to go after.
After all, Palpatine has appeared in hologram form before, so maybe he made some recordings that are still kicking around on the death star?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is Palpatine behind it all?

We know from Disney’s other offerings, they do like a misleading trailer. Either scenes subtly different, or outright misdirection. Remember when ‘fans’ freaked out that Finn wasn’t the heir to the Jedi? And how we didn’t see Rey wield a lightsaber in the promos? Or even the toys?

Who knows what role Palpatine has in this? Or in what capacity? It could be a relatively cameo appearance. Could be a clone, the original or just a Force Spirit.

Yes, I talked about all those possibilities earlier. I was not saying that Palpatine showing up in Ep IX is a bad idea, I only said that him showing up in the role of main villain of the movie is a bad idea and something they are unlikely to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Rey doesn't fit the technical definition of Mary Sue. She is however a very flat and poorly developed character. Same goes for really all of the new characters actually. No effort was made into fleshing them out or making them make sense.

In the original trilogy, we were given plenty of scenes where the different characters interacted with each other. Like when Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3P0 were all stuck on the Falcon in the asteroid field trying to fix the hyperdrive. We got Leia and Han working through their sexual tension, and 3P0s comical interruption. We got 3P0 talking to the hyperdrive and talking with Han and Chewie about it. Or when everybody was visiting Luke in the hospital.

No scenes like that exist in the new movies. We never get downtime scenes with the characters doing some mundane tasks while they just talk and develop their own character and relationships. Everything happens in action scenes.

I feel this is a general trend where technological progress has worked against the 'Art' itself. In the past, filming special effects and action scenes was hard and expensive so they were used sparingly. Nowadays there are much less limitations so producers and directors are tempted to throw as much junk at viewers as possible. The new Star Trek movies are really perfect example of this.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Fynn's character in general is the worst character of them all though. He makes no sense in the universe. He's supposed to be a brainwashed child soldier. However, somehow he made it through at least a decade of indoctrination without the First Order discovering he was a sniveling coward. Except for some reason he will occasionally have moments of uncharacteristic heroism that a cowardly character like him should never have, at least not without some lengthy character development. If the First Order is really taking children and turning them into soldiers, they almost certainly have them bloody their hands early. Fynn should have killed at least a few people before getting sent into the actual front lines.

I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

There’s also these



Basically messenger droids that Palpatine employed as part of his ‘wot if I get ded?’ Contingency planning. And said plan lead to The First Order.

So we could well have Palpatine sort-of masterminding things from beyond the grave, without actually being Palpatine.

Backfire wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is Palpatine behind it all?

We know from Disney’s other offerings, they do like a misleading trailer. Either scenes subtly different, or outright misdirection. Remember when ‘fans’ freaked out that Finn wasn’t the heir to the Jedi? And how we didn’t see Rey wield a lightsaber in the promos? Or even the toys?

Who knows what role Palpatine has in this? Or in what capacity? It could be a relatively cameo appearance. Could be a clone, the original or just a Force Spirit.

Yes, I talked about all those possibilities earlier. I was not saying that Palpatine showing up in Ep IX is a bad idea, I only said that him showing up in the role of main villain of the movie is a bad idea and something they are unlikely to do.

The problem they have is who else is going to be the big bad? Snoke is deadzo. Kylo is still a conflicted whiny manbaby. TLJ turned Hux into a comic relief character who gets prank called by the cool kids and thrown around like a ragdoll by force users. Johnson has left the final movie without a clear main villain from the present trilogy's characters, so the only choices they really have are A: throw away all of Kylo's character development such as it is, B: arse-pull an entirely new villain which is mental for the final movie in a trilogy that's supposed to be the cap-piece on a nine movie saga, or C: tap another baddie character from the previous movies who's already had all the necessary character and worldbuilding work done and they just have to come up with a justification for them being there.

In the case of C, Vader is dead and redeemed, Maul is dead and was a rage-combat guy, Dooku is dead and wasn't hugely interesting, and the Emperor is dead but was a phenomenally powerful Sith sorcerer who studied under a master who's sole obsession was mastering the Living Force so as to avoid death(including ways to survive the destruction of one's original body), and was also the main baddie of both previous trilogies. It's less that making Palpatine the main villain of the movie is a good idea, and more that making him the main villain is the best out of all the bad-to-mediocre options they have available, since it could at least be sold as part of the whole "cyclical story" thing, lets them have the Star Wars: TNG crew be the ones to finally defeat the big bad that neither the Jedi nor Luke could defeat permanently, and can be vaguely justified using stuff that's already part of Palpy's canon history.

That said, all of that is too obvious, and we are talking about JJ here. I can absolutely see him using the tease of Palpatine to get us all speculating along these lines and then in the film it turns out to be a trivial "side mission" scene or two featuring Palpatine's ghost, and the actual villain is either a complete non sequitur or he'll just handwave Kylo as the baddie by making the necessary changes "off screen" during the time jump.

I'd rather not sit through hours of backpedaling, which is why the things that worry me most in the trailer are Rey holding Anakin's saber and Kylo's helmet getting repaired.

There's not a lot to pull from the trailer in general beyond the Palpatine teaser. I'm not super exciting about the notion (backpedaling) but it does give them the opportunity to really do something with the idea of falling to the Dark Side. It's something I've always felt has been treated differently in expanded media than anyone talks about it in the films. Yoda and even Vader express a certain sense of subjugation and loss of self to the dark side, but we always see it as more of a choice of powers to play with.

TFA and TLJ both toy with the idea of there being something more behind it, with TLJ's scene with Snoke probably doing the best job of showing a sense of real control over others through the Dark Side (even if it gets him killed). If they can do something more with that, even through Palpatine.... it might be worth it.

Backfire wrote:


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

His military skills are his main selling point, so they should've built upon them more in TLJ. I was under the impression Finn's backstory had him graduating with excellent markes, and it is only upon his first combat mission that he realises he doesn't want this.

Based on that, with a bit of polishing, Finn should be an effective soldier when fighting for a cause he believes in. They should've given him some off-screen character development between the films, and had him as part of a Resistance commando team during TLJ- that would've given him a role distinct from Poe the pilot and Rey the force user.

*Sees Palestine masterminding beyond death tease*

Seriously?

*remembers every god awful plot line that already did this and realizes I’ve already seen this story and hated it*

You know I never thought I’d reach this point. Even though I’ve gone from ambivalent to seeing TLJ as a god awful film on par with the Prequels and TFA being somewhat mediocre, I assumed I’d still see this movie. It’s Star Wars who doesn’t go to see Star Wars?

But now, thinking about how this very concept makes me groan and want to just walk away... yeah. I’m out. Maybe I’ll catch it when it hits FX in 3 years.

*calmly leaves the room*

 Haighus wrote:

Backfire wrote:


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

His military skills are his main selling point, so they should've built upon them more in TLJ. I was under the impression Finn's backstory had him graduating with excellent markes, and it is only upon his first combat mission that he realises he doesn't want this.

Based on that, with a bit of polishing, Finn should be an effective soldier when fighting for a cause he believes in. They should've given him some off-screen character development between the films, and had him as part of a Resistance commando team during TLJ- that would've given him a role distinct from Poe the pilot and Rey the force user.

Except he doesn't have military skills. In the first film we find out he was a janitor who failed his first combat mission.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Backfire wrote:


I have talked about Finn character previously, and I agree. He is an example of character concept which probably felt good at the time they came up with him, but it only works in context of one movie. His origins are written so lowly that it is hard to come up reasons why the other, much more able characters keep him around. He is extremely limited - he has basic military skills and some inside knowledge of First Order. Because of how his background is written, it is almost impossible to come up with new skills for him which would make him a better fit for the storyline. His character had a place in TFA where they had nobody else with knowledge of Starkiller base. But this is where he is used up. In TLJ type massive story, there is no place for him because everything which happens is so beyond him. They have to come up with contrived storyline to give him something to do.

I actually like the character in itself and the actors take on the role. But Finn is so misplaced in this epic saga. It's a character which has legs for one movie but doesn't work in epic 3-movie saga. Now, JJA hinted that Ep IX will be a group adventure movie, and I can actually see Finn working again in such a setting. Simply because the others have nobody else to rely on, so there is a place for even such a mediocrity. But the issue is, how can they plausibly close the saga with a group adventure movie?

His military skills are his main selling point, so they should've built upon them more in TLJ. I was under the impression Finn's backstory had him graduating with excellent markes, and it is only upon his first combat mission that he realises he doesn't want this.

Based on that, with a bit of polishing, Finn should be an effective soldier when fighting for a cause he believes in. They should've given him some off-screen character development between the films, and had him as part of a Resistance commando team during TLJ- that would've given him a role distinct from Poe the pilot and Rey the force user.

Except he doesn't have military skills. In the first film we find out he was a janitor who failed his first combat mission.

He is supposed to have had top/very good marks whilst training, from what I've been told about the background for Finn (not read it personally). His stint as a "janitor" is likely as some kind of punishment, or just typical army duties for keeping idle hands busy and maintaining discipline.

The fact his film appearances don't match his supposed background is a failing of the films. Him failing on his first mission isn't indicative of poor combat skills though- he baulked at killing civilians.

 Haighus wrote:

The fact his film appearances don't match his supposed background is a failing of the films. Him failing on his first mission isn't indicative of poor combat skills though- he baulked at killing civilians.

Yeah, I realize. Certainly a different character if he was a decorated slaughterer of innocents after all. The point though, is he really didn't have any military or combat experience or at least, nothing exceptional to offer to the role.

 LordofHats wrote:
*Sees Palestine masterminding beyond death tease*

Seriously?

Definitely one of the more interesting typos, I was wondering if I wandered into the wrong thread about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict xD. I didn't realize the new trilogy was a metaphor for the Palestinian Resistance against the First Israeli Order. I demand a 2 state solution! A Palpatine-Skywalker multi-adherent Force government!

For God's sake let it be over!

Please, please, in the name of all humanity let Star Wars die!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
For God's sake let it be over!

Please, please, in the name of all humanity let Star Wars die!

Under the House of Mouse, Star Wars will be back and in greater numbers!

epronovost wrote:
That's a critique of the new trilogy I never agreed with or understood. Luke was an absolute Mary-Sue. He was a farm boy with no combat or military experience and a mild technical knowledge when it comes to droids and simple machines, but somehow knew how to fly a fighter just as well or even better then elite pilots of the rebellion which were professional soldiers. He knew how to shoot a blaster and fight better than Stormtrooper. With a few days of training, he was able to old his own against Darth Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith of all time who was trained from early infancy, and with two or three years, he was capable of defeating him soundly. I don't think that Rey is more of a Mary-Sue then Luke was. That doesn't mean she isn't one though, but at least she was introduced as a vicious fighter who lives as a scavanger on a planet populated by other scavangers and violent thugs. It was expected from her introduction that she was a very competent brawler. Another big characteristic of Mary-Sue beside being overcompetant is the murkiness of their motivations. Luke wants to fight the Empire because they murdered his family (at least that's what we are told in a new hope, but the death of his caretaker is never mentioned in the rest of the trilogy which sort of cheapens the motivation) and he seems to be good for goodness sake, a very Mary-Sue trait. Rey is motivated by finding her place in hte univers and a quest for her origin. Her seeking her parents or parental figures is mentioned in several ways through the first two movies making her motivation toward self-discovery more credible and developped, though she is also good for goodness sake. If you compare sidekicks, Han Solo is an absolute Mary-Sue rogue, especially when compared to Finn who is a much more credible take on the trope of the roguish character, but Ford's acting was fantastic so the difference is mostly there in my opinion, but that's just me though.

I don't want to throw more fuel on this fire, I may regret posting this, and I consider "Mary Sue" to be a uselessly overused and vague term, but here's my take:

Luke has scenes where he fails, or he looks uncool. He very much feels like part of a team--he has moments where he looks cool, but he also has moments where he, critically, steps out the spotlight so that other characters can look cool. Han's coolest moment in Ep4 is when he swoops out of nowhere to save a helpless Luke from Vader. With Rey, she's always the most important thing in any scene she's in, to the point where it feels like she barely needs the rest of the cast to be there. I don't hate her, but I think the main reason I don't find her that interesting is that most of the time, no character sharing a scene with Rey is ever allowed to be cooler than her.

 Grimskul wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
*Sees Palestine masterminding beyond death tease*

Seriously?

Definitely one of the more interesting typos, I was wondering if I wandered into the wrong thread about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict xD. I didn't realize the new trilogy was a metaphor for the Palestinian Resistance against the First Israeli Order. I demand a 2 state solution! A Palpatine-Skywalker multi-adherent Force government!

What?

Oh XD

Ducking autocorrect man

I'm disappointed theres no more Phasma - or so mr Boyega tells us. That sucks. Its true, Phasma was thrown in a trash compactor in TFA but did at least come back in giant chicken fashion in TLJ - which made that film instantly awesome. Seriously, this sequel trilogy is the story of Finn and his boot-camp-bully, and doing the right thing - standing up to bullies and refusing to do unsavory acts!

When DJ( good grief ) reveals someone is selling weapons to both sides of the conflict - that is soooooo Darth Sidious' calling card! Could Snoke have been just another Count Dooku? Was it by Sidious' hand that he clouded Snokes foresight when he got the chop? Could it have been Sidious who clouded Luke's judgement by pushing him to kill Kylo? Ol' Ian has been playing'em like fiddles!

Could someone have been responsible for Finn deciding to leave the First Order?

And yet...the biggest question is...who are the Porgs? WHO are they REALLY? Inquiring minds need to know...

epronovost wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
Let's not forget that the only way he can 'beat' Vader is to give in to his anger, which is what will see him defeated by Palpatine. Anyone who says Luke "was capable of defeating Vader soundly" doesn't understand the theme of the films at all and I'm fairly embarrassed for them that they said that in a thread on Star Wars on a public forum.

Did you watch the fight in RotJ lately? Luke handles Vader pretty fine and even kicks him down a few stairs and nimbly dodges all his blows all the while trrying to talk him out of fighting against him. The only time Vader seem to gain an advantage is when he catches him by surprise by throwing his lightsaber and fails to capitalise on it since Luke, who doesn't want to fight him, evades him and hide. Then he gets momentarily angry and beats him down with ease in about 15-20 seconds before recovering his cool and calling off the Emperor on his mind game (very stupidly though). Luke was more then capable of handling Vader, but didn't even wanted to fight him in the first place. On Bespin, he evades being frozen and kicks Vader down a shaft. He also clips him on the shoulder right before he gets his hand cut. Vader had to work a bit to beat him. It's even shown when he changes his sword stance from one handed to two handed and when he stops just mouthing him off like in the fist exchange.

As for Rey's failure, she got captured twice, was manipulated by both Kylo and Snoke, was smacked a little bit by Snoke and saved by her enemy. She also failed to save Kylo from himself (so far). She recovered from all of these setbacks, but so did Luke whose biggest setback was losing a hand against Vader and it was solved and this potential problem was solved the very next scene when he ot a perfect prostetic..

I'll grant you that Luke handles Vader pretty roughly... at the end of the third movie, after getting (granted, a minimum) training and getting beaten once.

Rey beats the snot out of Kylo Ren in the FIRST movie, with no training whatsoever. This eliminates any possible drama of them meeting again in the next movie, as she's ALREADY proven she not only can beat him, but beat him EASILY.

Now which one is a Mary Sue again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends, immediately get a robot hand to replace his old one, learn new vital information and have nothing really bad happen to him. He comes back in Jedi and within the first 20 minutes fixes the only thing he lost in Empire.

Wait... Just WHO does he save in ESB? As I recall they all saved themselves (except for Han, of course) and had to go back and save LUKE. This almost costs them their own escape; had Vader just let the Executor's gunnery crew have at the Millennium Falcon the 'saga' ends right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Backfire wrote:
"Palpatine's behind it all" is counterproductive for that goal, an admission that they can't come up with anything good themselves.

Which would be uncommonly honest of them at this point.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
For God's sake let it be over!

Please, please, in the name of all humanity let Star Wars die!

Naah disney will keep milking money with it. Let's bet when SW X-XII trilogy is announced

(and it's not like trailer even called The end...)

Got a good feeling about The Mandalorian. It feels a bit like one of the cartoon series come to life...

 Vulcan wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
The Luke being a Mary Sue isn't because he doesn't fail, it's because he always fails upwards. No, In Empire he doesn't beat Vader. But he does save all his friends, immediately get a robot hand to replace his old one, learn new vital information and have nothing really bad happen to him. He comes back in Jedi and within the first 20 minutes fixes the only thing he lost in Empire.

Wait... Just WHO does he save in ESB? As I recall they all saved themselves (except for Han, of course) and had to go back and save LUKE. This almost costs them their own escape; had Vader just let the Executor's gunnery crew have at the Millennium Falcon the 'saga' ends right there.

Well, he did bring R2-D2 along, who does actually save people (Hyperdrive fix), so there is that.