There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters.
Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.
That's one million Marines.
Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.
Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000.
Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people.
Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people.
Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people.
And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen.
That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc.
That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.
How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?
Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.
I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.
Force multiplayer, no other species in the galaxy can do what marines are designed to do as well as them (in the fluff), drop down, totally smash the enemies command structure and get out again, you use the guard to hold the enemy and then use the marines to break them.
Inspiring, they are literal angels of the emperor to the humans of the imperium, they prove their faith is real and that the emperor is real and thus a god, this makes them fight all the harder.
Propaganda. The serve to inspire the mortals of the Imperium though the fact that they are Angels of Death, decedent from the God-Emperor of Mankind. Their existence is a boon to the common man, who will never have seen one, but most will have heard stories told.
Then if Joe Blow who's grown up hearing the stories, and is fighting a losing battle as part of the Imperial Guard, and suddenly the Angels of Death appear, delivering the pinpoint strikes they are supposed to, it will in theory rally the common soldiers to hold longer. While hopefully the Astartes take out the one very important thing they should be there to take.
You know when they arent being wasted in open protracted conflicts they have no business in. The should be a Rapid Strike and Response Force.
One could make the same argument regarding special forces v. the rest of the armed forces. Why would we need a SEAL team when I could just toss a thousand or so enlisted sailors fresh out of boot at the problem?
The answer is that they do different jobs.
Plus the aforementioned issue of propaganda and morale.
PLUS, who then would be the poster boyz of geedubz? Some rando in flak armor with a flashlight?
Marines are quite important in the fluff. (Or is that just propaganda?) They arive faster, have the best equipment etc. The IG is the hammer, SM are the scalpel.
However in the game you need game balance aaaaand they are not so strong anymore.
Speaking of witch, am I the only one who think it is odd that armies always have the same number of points on each side? Are we just playing the balanced battles? Where are the battles where a tyranid just eats the local gaurd regiment. 200 000 point of nids vs 5 000 point of guards? Odd, odd, odd.
JNAProductions wrote: think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
JNAProductions wrote: (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
JNAProductions wrote: There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters.
Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.
That's one million Marines.
Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.
Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000.
Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people.
Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people.
Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people.
And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen.
That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc.
That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.
How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?
Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.
I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.
When analyzed from even the most minimally realistic perspective, Space Marines would be utterly and completely irrelevant on the scale of many planetary wars, much less a galactic scale. They are so rare as to be nonexistent, and so few in number as to be trivially encircled and destroyed in major conflicts. A chapter of Space Marines are so few in number that they couldn't hold a mid sized town adequately. There are literally *millions* of IG regiments for each individual Space Marine, and hundreds of thousands of sector battlefleets for each Space Marine warship. GW is bad at numbers and scales, and half the time portrays Marines, both loyalist and heretic, as engaging in bloody frontal confrontations and gruelling attritional wars, despite that each casualty takes years or decades to replace.
They matter becausr they're thematic centerpieces, nothing more.
Formosa wrote: no other species in the galaxy can do what marines are designed to do as well as them (in the fluff), drop down, totally smash the enemies command structure and get out again
No other species maybe, but a Manticore barrage or lance strike from orbit can deal with the problem just fine.
Kap'n Krump wrote: One could make the same argument regarding special forces v. the rest of the armed forces. Why would we need a SEAL team when I could just toss a thousand or so enlisted sailors fresh out of boot at the problem?
Because in the real world we tend to be a bit hesitant to do things like sacrifice a million soldiers to take an objective, or to slaughter a million enemy civilians to kill one military leader. The Imperium has no such constraints, life is cheap and any enemy civilians killed in an artillery barrage only reduce the amount of work for the extermination camps once the war is over.
1.) Marines aren't political(*) and aren't constrained by the bureaucracy. This means they can respond quickly to threats the fleet and/or guard could take (literally) decades to respond to.
2.) Marines have their own fleets of space ships, which facilitates 1.) above, not to mention things like orbital bombardment or fleet engagements.
3.) Marines have toys that can exploit opportunities that other forces cannot - dropships and teleporting Terminators being only a small sample of deployment options that would KILL any normal human being that even tried them.
On a pitched battlefield it's wasteful to employ Space Marines. Need to send a small force that punches above its numbers? Space Marines are the ones for the job.
(*) In general, and some chapters are still a bunch of jerks.
They are mostly hesitant to completely destroy infrastructure, particularly when said infrastructure could be too hard to replace. For instance, they didnt just exterminatus Armageddon, they rounded everyone up, killed them in camps repairing the damaged infrastructure.
Lots of seething guard players in here unable to know their role of holding the line while Astartes do the heavy lifting. Space Marine Legions retook the Empire you are serving. You're welcome.
Formosa wrote: no other species in the galaxy can do what marines are designed to do as well as them (in the fluff), drop down, totally smash the enemies command structure and get out again
No other species maybe, but a Manticore barrage or lance strike from orbit can deal with the problem just fine.
Kap'n Krump wrote: One could make the same argument regarding special forces v. the rest of the armed forces. Why would we need a SEAL team when I could just toss a thousand or so enlisted sailors fresh out of boot at the problem?
Because in the real world we tend to be a bit hesitant to do things like sacrifice a million soldiers to take an objective, or to slaughter a million enemy civilians to kill one military leader. The Imperium has no such constraints, life is cheap and any enemy civilians killed in an artillery barrage only reduce the amount of work for the extermination camps once the war is over.
Only if you dont care about the infrastructure, population or resources the planet has, otherwise we just exterminatus any planet that is in conflict and rebuild afterwards.
Also there are some enemies where numbers literally mean nothing and armour, speed and massive force is needed in a specific point, lances cant do that, neither can artillery, marines can as its what they are designed to do.
Formosa wrote: Only if you dont care about the infrastructure, population or resources the planet has, otherwise we just exterminatus any planet that is in conflict and rebuild afterwards.
Carefully targeted artillery can destroy specific targets without reaching exterminatus levels of destruction. If you can aim a marine drop pod at an enemy commander you can demolish the building with artillery and leave the rest of the area untouched.
Also there are some enemies where numbers literally mean nothing and armour, speed and massive force is needed in a specific point, lances cant do that, neither can artillery, marines can as its what they are designed to do.
{citation needed}
Just what exactly are these enemies that are immune to normal humans using plasma guns/lascannons/etc, but vulnerable to a bunch of screaming idiots in power armor using the same weapons?
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Gael Knight wrote: Lots of seething guard players in here unable to know their role of holding the line while Astartes do the heavy lifting. Space Marine Legions retook the Empire you are serving. You're welcome.
Space marines and their lack of loyalty created the need to retake the Imperium in the first place.
Formosa wrote: no other species in the galaxy can do what marines are designed to do as well as them (in the fluff), drop down, totally smash the enemies command structure and get out again
No other species maybe, but a Manticore barrage or lance strike from orbit can deal with the problem just fine.
Kap'n Krump wrote: One could make the same argument regarding special forces v. the rest of the armed forces. Why would we need a SEAL team when I could just toss a thousand or so enlisted sailors fresh out of boot at the problem?
Because in the real world we tend to be a bit hesitant to do things like sacrifice a million soldiers to take an objective, or to slaughter a million enemy civilians to kill one military leader. The Imperium has no such constraints, life is cheap and any enemy civilians killed in an artillery barrage only reduce the amount of work for the extermination camps once the war is over.
Only if you dont care about the infrastructure, population or resources the planet has, otherwise we just exterminatus any planet that is in conflict and rebuild afterwards.
Also there are some enemies where numbers literally mean nothing and armour, speed and massive force is needed in a specific point, lances cant do that, neither can artillery, marines can as its what they are designed to do.
Gael Knight wrote: Lots of seething guard players in here unable to know their role of holding the line while Astartes do the heavy lifting. Space Marine Legions retook the Empire you are serving. You're welcome.
You mean the dudes that tore it asunder in the first place over daddy issues?
The troops that are so rare that most of the Imperium's wars are won without ever seeing a single one?
The guys that aren't trusted to lead and command the vast fighting armies of the Imperium anymore without special dispensation?
The same retaking that was accomplished primarily by normal human troops because there were more worlds than marines?
Gael Knight wrote: No wars of any consequence are fought without the Astartes.
Citation Needed. Many vital wars never see a single Space Marine boot and are taken care of by the Guard, AdMech, Stormtroopers, Knights or other forces.
One will also notice that the largest post-heresy forces, and the highest Imperal ranks of Lord Solar or Wamaster have been held by Guard commanders, not Space Marines, except for Guilliman of late (a literal son of the Emperor and Primarch).
If anything the victory of the Guard is down to the Imperial Navy, rather than anything they can muster themselves.
Again, citation needed, because 40k in general portrays a very limited level of naval combat and orbital bombardment
Space marines and their lack of loyalty created the need to retake the Imperium in the first place.
The Imperium's grip was loosened during the heresy but ultimately it was restored by the Astartes.
And, again, the only reason the Heresy happened was because of treason by space marines. Cleaning up some of the mess you made doesn't make you the hero.
Space marines and their lack of loyalty created the need to retake the Imperium in the first place.
The Imperium's grip was loosened during the heresy but ultimately it was restored by the Astartes.
And, again, the only reason the Heresy happened was because of treason by space marines. Cleaning up some of the mess you made doesn't make you the hero.
The Loyalists didn't create the mess though. They destroyed the forces of the traitors, routing them into the Eye of Terror, and prevailed.
One will also notice that the largest post-heresy forces, and the highest Imperal ranks of Lord Solar or Wamaster have been held by Guard commanders, not Space Marines, except for Guilliman of late (a literal son of the Emperor and Primarch).
Not that you are wrong, but Lord Solars and Warmasters still hold less power than Horus did. Typically also in those theaters they command, its not an entire Chapter working with them but Companies of Chapters. When large numbers of Imperial Commanders are present, and there isnt a Warmaster, its not uncommon for a Chapter Master to take over all command
The Loyalists didn't create the mess though. They destroyed the forces of the traitors, routing them into the Eye of Terror, and prevailed.
It was still the Astartes that started the whole mess. But its foolish to think it was just them. The Fabricator General of Mars turned traitor as did much of the Human Imperial Army.
Gael Knight wrote: The Loyalists didn't create the mess though. They destroyed the forces of the traitors, routing them into the Eye of Terror, and prevailed.
And yet if no space marines at all had existed there would have been no traitors and no Heresy.
Gael Knight wrote: The Loyalists didn't create the mess though. They destroyed the forces of the traitors, routing them into the Eye of Terror, and prevailed.
And yet if no space marines at all had existed there would have been no traitors and no Heresy.
There would also be no Imperium. Not a very useful point is it?
Gael Knight wrote: The Loyalists didn't create the mess though. They destroyed the forces of the traitors, routing them into the Eye of Terror, and prevailed.
And yet if no space marines at all had existed there would have been no traitors and no Heresy.
That's a bold claim that cant be backed up. Chaos would still try to tear down the Imperium.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: That's a bold claim that cant be backed up. Chaos would still try to tear down the Imperium.
Try, yes, but succeed? Chaos had not succeeded in destroying the Imperium prior to driving space marines to treason, and it was their arrogance in their god-like status that made the primarchs targets in the first place.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: That's a bold claim that cant be backed up. Chaos would still try to tear down the Imperium.
Try, yes, but succeed? Chaos had not succeeded in destroying the Imperium prior to driving space marines to treason, and it was their arrogance in their god-like status that made the primarchs targets in the first place.
With how little convincing it took on the Traitor's part to get him to switch sides, I think the Fabricator-General going traitor, would still have torn the Imperium apart.
Peregrine wrote: it was their arrogance in their god-like status that made the primarchs targets in the first place.
The Chaos Gods scattered the Primarchs before they were "born".
Well yes, they made themselves targets and Chaos attacked the target. First Chaos scattered them, and then Chaos whispered dark secrets and promises of power to them. And half the space marines eagerly betrayed their Emperor, nearly destroying humanity in the process.
The point earlier about space marine autonomy is dead on the money; in 40K, having your own fleet is EVERYTHING.
By design, all branches of the Imperium, with the exception of space marines and adeptus mechanicus MUST rely on the navy to get anywhere; the navy, in turn cannot occupy and capture planetary assets without ground troops.
The guard, no matter how powerful, can only ever impact the planet they are on, unless the navy gives them a ride. Ditto for knights, custodes, sisters, ministorum and the inquisition (though these guys, theoretically have the authority to commandeer EVERYTHING in the Imperium under certain circumstances, so the lack of a fleet isn't really an issue).
And as for the Heresy, the fact that marines started the trouble actually increases the importance of the marines, rather than diminishing it. "Important" does not imply a position on the moral spectrum, and therefore the loyalist/ traitor dichotomy is irrelevant to the question.
It is, however, a total overstatement to suggest that they were a part of every battle of consequence. The first contact events with both the tyranids and necrons were obviously battles of consequence, and neither involved marines. Tyranids have devoured hundreds of worlds that never saw an imperial presence, let alone a marine, and a battle that turns a planet into a barren rock should certainly constitute a battle of consequence.
Now of course, you can redefine "battle of consequence" to exclude battles that didn't include the imperium at all, and then your statement would be closer to the truth. You could also redefine it to include only imperial victories, and that might be closer to the truth, but I'd have to do more research to assert that for sure.
Similarly, you could redefine "battle" to campaign or war, and that would also bring the statement closer to the truth.
Finally, regarding "chaos would have still found a way to screw the universe," that is absolutely true. The birth of slaanesh had nothing to do with the imperium at all, and if I'm not mistaken, that was also the birth of the eye of terror. Even if you restrict the corruption to the Imperium, it still happens again during the Age of Apostasy (obviously many of those battles did involve marines; the point I'm making here is that the age of apostasy would have been the imperium breaking event in a timeline that didn't include the horus heresy).
PS- Sorry to grind semantics and write paragraphs- I'm just bored.
Space Marines are the rapid response force. The imperial guard takes a long time to mobilise into the kind of overwhelming numbers needed to swamp the opponent. And even if they did, then they would probably be led by the chapter masters of the space marine chapters that would probably also arrive to lend a hand.
Its all about relative numbers. Space marines were broken up into chapter strength so that they could never again threaten the imperium the way the horus heresy did. Even so, just one renegade chapter going rogue has ever swamped a whole system into flames.
Imagine if you could put together hundreds of thousands of space marines into a legion of old. They would be an unstoppable force. You can put 2 million guardsmen on a planet in several months or a year of deployment. Before half are even deployed, several hundred thousand space marines would have already deployed there, and destroyed or taken all possible landing sites. It would be a massacre.
Comparing the quality of a few space marines against one thousand guardsmen is of course redundant. But what if I could deploy five hundred thousand space marines onto that battlefield in half the time you could take to deploy 1 or 2 million guardsmen?
That's why the horus heresy showed how dangerous space legions were when they were used as a weapon against the imperium. Horus came close to toppling to imperium.
Small numbers of space marines are of course not a threat. But once you can gather legion strength numbers of space marines, its a totally different ball game. With their flexibility, equipment, rapid deployment ability, a legion of space marines is far far more dangerous than a cumbersome big army of guardsmen. Especially when the theatre of battle allows for only more limited numbers.
Like imagine city block urban fighting. Except every opponent you face is a space marine while your side has only guardsmen. The casualties on the guard side will be horrendous. Now you could have maybe far more guardsmen. But in the tight quarters of urban fighting, all those bodies will just get in the way.
Quality on its own is of course not useful if outnumbered by so much. But once you have enough absolute numbers, then quality makes a big big difference. So, yeah. a squad or two of space marines are not going to achieve much. But a few hundred thousand space marines in legion strength? That can and would be a huge threat to just about anything, even a big guard army.
And BTW, space marines DO still gather in legion strength. Black legion does that all the time in the black crusades.
Yeah, it's one of the things in 40K fluff that really stretch my suspension of disbelief. If it were 1Mio. Marines in every Chapter I could unterstand their importance. And then something like 200Mio. Marines per Legion during the Great Crusade? Okay, yeah, that could probably conquer several planets at once if supported by billions of guardsmen.
But merely 1000Marines? And more often than not they're even less, I wonder how that tiny, ridiculously small number of Blood Angels could do anything on Baal against the Tyranids.
Gael Knight wrote: Seeing as they are in every war of consequence for the Imperium.
Only because I know you're going to define "war of consequence" in a way that only includes wars where space marines are present. And surprise, surprise, in most of the wars that GW publishes anything about they include the designated face of the IP.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Before half are even deployed, several hundred thousand space marines would have already deployed there, and destroyed or taken all possible landing sites.
I don't think you understand the scale of a planet. The D-Day landings in France involved 150,000 soldiers, all for a tiny area of land in one small country. On the scale of a planetary war even hundreds of thousands of troops is a small amount, and 500,000 space marines would be spread out across an immense area. The 1-2 space marines guarding each potential landing site could be easily overwhelmed by a mass attack.
But what if I could deploy five hundred thousand space marines onto that battlefield in half the time you could take to deploy 1 or 2 million guardsmen?
Then 1-2 million guardsmen are attacking each of hundreds of other targets, none of which are defended by space marines. Even if the space marines win the battle and miraculously avoid taking excessive losses they still lose the war.
Also, 500,000 space marines is half the space marines in the entire galaxy. Right there is the ultimate concession of how useless they are. Deploying half the Imperium's entire space marine forces, an unprecedented scale of use, is maybe sufficient to win one battle in a war while conventional forces win the war everywhere else.
Like imagine city block urban fighting. Except every opponent you face is a space marine while your side has only guardsmen. The casualties on the guard side will be horrendous. Now you could have maybe far more guardsmen. But in the tight quarters of urban fighting, all those bodies will just get in the way.
Until the attacker says " this" and just bombs the city off the map. At which point the attacker has failed to capture the city intact, an objective that was probably not going to happen anyway once that level of fighting started, but the losses in space marines are almost certainly an unacceptably high price to pay for that minor victory.
If you want a perfect illustration of the ridiculeness of the numbers of Space Marines, take Cadia. It's a planet of 850 million person, so not all that much. It has a population comparable to that of humanity during the Bronze Age. It's said that 72% of its population is a member of the PDF of the planet which are trained from early infancy. For this planet alone, there is 62 soldiers for each Space Marines. Armageddon is supposed to have a population 150 billions and has about 10% of its population conscripted in the Steel Legion. That's 15 billion guardsmen 1500 guardsmen for each Space Marine in the galaxy. If all the Space Marines were on Armageddon, they would have an impact comparable to about 60 Navy Seals next to the entire US military combined (national guard not included). Could they be useful? I completely agree, could we do without them. Absolutely. Now imagine a million more world beside those two. Some of them probably only have a few thousand soldiers on them, but there are other Hive Worlds and other Fortress World that produced trillions of guardsmen.
One 1000 marines per chapter is and always has been bs.
With a force of only a thousand space marines of which each marine takes YEARS to develop and train losing more then 10 marines in an engagement would be a crippling blow.
Carefully targeted artillery can destroy specific targets without reaching exterminatus levels of destruction. If you can aim a marine drop pod at an enemy commander you can demolish the building with artillery and leave the rest of the area untouched.
... are you serious? its the imperium, there is no such thing as "accurate artillery" in the manner your claiming, your doing that thing you do all the time, trying to equate real life with 40k.
{citation needed}
Just what exactly are these enemies that are immune to normal humans using plasma guns/lascannons/etc, but vulnerable to a bunch of screaming idiots in power armor using the same weapons?
Strawman fallacy, you are asserting that lascannons etc. dont work to create a counter argument for an argument I am not making,
As for Citations for forces which numbers wont win the day alone, Orks, Tyranids, Death guard (plague war shows this very well), drop pod assault by space marines haha.
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: Yeah, it's one of the things in 40K fluff that really stretch my suspension of disbelief. If it were 1Mio. Marines in every Chapter I could unterstand their importance. And then something like 200Mio. Marines per Legion during the Great Crusade? Okay, yeah, that could probably conquer several planets at once if supported by billions of guardsmen.
But merely 1000Marines? And more often than not they're even less, I wonder how that tiny, ridiculously small number of Blood Angels could do anything on Baal against the Tyranids.
Honest answer is because that is what the universe says can be done, lets say for arguments sake that it were true and we put them in the real world, as in we took marines as they are in the fluff with the crazy abilities and feats they have pulled off and transfered them to the real world, from our perspective its impossible, utterly impossible for 100 marines to take a planet, until they do it, suddenly we would change our tunes.... waffling over.
As others have said, the autonomy and ability to rapidly respond is the main draw of the Astartes. The glacial speed of the Administratum, responsible for every major deployment of Imperial military and naval assets, cannot be understated. This bureaucratic monstrosity will bring overwhelming force to bear eventually, but all too often it will be too late. Even Scions, the Special Forces of the Guard, will not be deployed quickly. Tactically they excel at rapid deployments, but it may take years of logistical preparation to even get them to relevant the campaign zone. The Imperium would disappear overnight without the Imperial Guard, but without the Astartes the already slow to react forces of mankind would be slower still.
While I don't think even a Chapter-scale deployment should ever be enough to conquer a moderately populated planet by themselves, Marines work well in tipping the balance in the Imperium's favour at precise points and with lethal suddenness that the Imperium is otherwise completely incapable of. As others have pointed out, there are also foes of a type completely inimical to regular combat against mortal, sane opponents.
Formosa wrote: ... are you serious? its the imperium, there is no such thing as "accurate artillery" in the manner your claiming, your doing that thing you do all the time, trying to equate real life with 40k.
Where did you get that artillery in 40K was less accurate then our own? thousand basilisk were used to destroyed a Warlord Titan kilometers away in the fluff. In one of Gaunt's Ghost novel, they use a single shot from a ship's cannon to kill a greater daemon, destroying about a hundred meters of storage facility in the process. No guardsmen were killed. That's pin point precision. Precise artillery fire isn't complicated. You just basic algebra to do it. Launching a drop pod requires more extensive and complex maths.
Formosa wrote: ... are you serious? its the imperium, there is no such thing as "accurate artillery" in the manner your claiming, your doing that thing you do all the time, trying to equate real life with 40k.
Where did you get that artillery in 40K was less accurate then our own? thousand basilisk were used to destroyed a Warlord Titan kilometers away in the fluff. In one of Gaunt's Ghost novel, they use a single shot from a ship's cannon to kill a greater daemon, destroying about a hundred meters of storage facility in the process. No guardsmen were killed. That's pin point precision. Precise artillery fire isn't complicated. You just basic algebra to do it. Launching a drop pod requires more extensive and complex maths.
Which 40k book was that??? and the second one, which book was that too?
And where do I get it, so far I have see no evidence that 40k artillery is accurate on the scale of ours, you pointing this out is literally the first example I have ever even heard of, not saying I dont believe you are anything but I will have to read it for myself.
Every example I have ever seen of 40k artillery is that it is utterly indiscriminate, point in general direction of enemy and fire, also I have never seen any example of targeting equipment etc. on artillery platforms, I have seen it a couple of times for Leman russ and other vehicles, but never Basilisk etc.
Formosa wrote: ... are you serious? its the imperium, there is no such thing as "accurate artillery" in the manner your claiming, your doing that thing you do all the time, trying to equate real life with 40k.
Where did you get that artillery in 40K was less accurate then our own? thousand basilisk were used to destroyed a Warlord Titan kilometers away in the fluff. In one of Gaunt's Ghost novel, they use a single shot from a ship's cannon to kill a greater daemon, destroying about a hundred meters of storage facility in the process. No guardsmen were killed. That's pin point precision. Precise artillery fire isn't complicated. You just basic algebra to do it. Launching a drop pod requires more extensive and complex maths.
Which 40k book was that??? and the second one, which book was that too?
And where do I get it, so far I have see no evidence that 40k artillery is accurate on the scale of ours, you pointing this out is literally the first example I have ever even heard of, not saying I dont believe you are anything but I will have to read it for myself.
Every example I have ever seen of 40k artillery is that it is utterly indiscriminate, point in general direction of enemy and fire, also I have never seen any example of targeting equipment etc. on artillery platforms, I have seen it a couple of times for Leman russ and other vehicles, but never Basilisk etc.
That's because usually there's no NEED for pinpoint precision. The enemy is there-where? ALL THERE. FIRE EVERYWHERE.
But, despite the Imperium having DEFINITELY backslid from their technological height of 30k, they're still a LOT more advanced than we are today.
Formosa wrote: ... are you serious? its the imperium, there is no such thing as "accurate artillery" in the manner your claiming, your doing that thing you do all the time, trying to equate real life with 40k.
Where did you get that artillery in 40K was less accurate then our own? thousand basilisk were used to destroyed a Warlord Titan kilometers away in the fluff. In one of Gaunt's Ghost novel, they use a single shot from a ship's cannon to kill a greater daemon, destroying about a hundred meters of storage facility in the process. No guardsmen were killed. That's pin point precision. Precise artillery fire isn't complicated. You just basic algebra to do it. Launching a drop pod requires more extensive and complex maths.
Which 40k book was that??? and the second one, which book was that too?
And where do I get it, so far I have see no evidence that 40k artillery is accurate on the scale of ours, you pointing this out is literally the first example I have ever even heard of, not saying I dont believe you are anything but I will have to read it for myself.
Every example I have ever seen of 40k artillery is that it is utterly indiscriminate, point in general direction of enemy and fire, also I have never seen any example of targeting equipment etc. on artillery platforms, I have seen it a couple of times for Leman russ and other vehicles, but never Basilisk etc.
The Basilisk entry is from one of the earlier IG codexes. Though when you're firing several thousand artillery pieces at a Titan-sized target for days on end chances are a portion of them are going to hit, so it doesn't necessarily mean pinpoint accuracy but it does indicate that it's not wildly inaccurate to the point of being unable to single out significant targets.
Formosa wrote: Which 40k book was that??? and the second one, which book was that too?
The first one was in a codex if I'm not mistaken, the 5th eddition one for the Imperial Guard. The second was in the first omnibus of the Gaunt Ghost (I think it's in the second book).
so far I have see no evidence that 40k artillery is accurate on the scale of ours, you pointing this out is literally the first example I have ever even heard of, not saying I dont believe you are anything but I will have to read it for myself.
Every example I have ever seen of 40k artillery is that it is utterly indiscriminate, point in general direction of enemy and fire, also I have never seen any example of targeting equipment etc. on artillery platforms, I have seen it a couple of times for Leman russ and other vehicles, but never Basilisk etc.
Basilisk can hit a target up to 15 kilometers away, but require spotters and trained artillery officers to fire undirectly to the enemy. The Imperium uses all the types of artillery we use today from heavy artillery pieces like the Earthshaker cannon, passing by guided missiles like the Manticore or hunter-killer missiles, to heavy mortars like the Griffon (and even repeating mortars, a thing we don't have, with the Wyvern) to intercontinental ballistic missiles like the Deathstrike missiles. I don't see how an army capable of firing intercontinental ballistic missiles would fail direct artillery fire competently and hit a 100 meter wide zone. This assumption artillery fire cannot be very precise seems to some out of nowhere.
If you read some Battlefleet Gothic material there are several stories on how a rebellion was stopped by a single shot from a ship destroying the palace and fortress where the traitors command center was situated. You read about what GW sells. If they sell you commandos in power armor, of course they won't masturbate over the power and precision of artillery. Artillery is boring, but its the deadliest weapon by far in any war.
One of the things that may make marines seem useless is the disparity between the background and 'standard' games of 40k.
In the game, space marines are deployed as an army against an even force. In the background they are used for decapitation strikes and sabotage.
We don't hear the stories where the space marines aren't needed (the rebel commander forgot to shield his base from orbital strike). We hear the ones where a small group of marines made able to turn a few key battles to win a war.
Basically the background of 40k is like action movies, youll watch it and like ( or not ), but there is no historical correct re-enactment, just entertainment..
Arguments of scale are set to fail. Consider this: soo many space orks vs soo few space elfs. => space elfs don't matter, so kick them out and stick with the space orks
They can strike pretty much wherever they want. They take a helluva lot of stopping. Their weapons are based on ‘one hit, one kill’.
They’re who you shove right down the gullet of the enemy command structure, and they gut it completely.
Orks, Eldar, Renegades, Tyranids, Necrons. All have the same weakness, to one degree or another. Take out the head honcho, and things start going wrong for them.
It really depends on how accurate book marines are vs game marines.
In game, a marine really isn't that much better than a regular human in strength or survivability. In book though, they're significantly stronger.
Where Marines make a lot of sense, in my opinion, is when you think about interstellar conquest. transporting and supplying a billion man army of guardsmen is going to be a nightmare, regardless of whether you have them men or not. You can't just dump a billion dudes with lasguns and flak jackets on a planet and think you're going to succeed. but deploying 1000 supermen out of a small strike fleet would be quite plausible. I see it playing out as follows.
1) Human planet identified by rogue traders.
2) Imperial diplomats and espionage agents engage locals.
3) Locals refuse annexation.
4) A single marine strike fleet arrives, and blows the local SDF out of space.
5) 100 super humans drop pod directly into the planetary government building and butcher everyone. A thunderhawk blasts its way through their air force and recovers the marines before the ground forces can respond.
6) The marines repeat this until a local government surrenders.
Against normal humans, the marines will generally be able to strike where they want and escape before any kind of response can be assembled, as long as they control the local air space via thunderhawk and space based support.
After enough of this shock and awe, the leadership of the planet will generally surrender. This same procedure would also work very well against rebel planets.
Where marines make less sense is in grinding warfare, unless you're going by Movie Marines, such as Relic's Space Marine. Marines need to get in an out fast, before the opposition can retarget them with artillery or missile strikes.
Talizvar wrote: IG/AM guard are numbered in insane quantities, they almost literally bury the enemies of the Imperium.
Think of the ratio this way:
472,000 active personnel in the USA Army.
184,000 in the Marine Corps.
About 2.5 to one.
The idea is rapid deployment, a forward unit able to deploy from a variety of platforms in conjunction with other military arms of government.
If you want it down to a tiny blurb: The difference between Quantity and Quality.
They ARE representative because of course every battle you play is IMPORTANT so of course the Space Marines will be there!
The USMC are not special forces. They are specialIZED forces. Do not use this comparison for Guard and Space Marines.
Tempestus Scions are what Special Forces are to real armies, Space Marines are just Specialer Forces. There is nothing in the real world usable for a decent comparison.
SM simply have a different field of use than the Guard. Deploy the Guard and you fight for a long time with a lot of collateral damage. Deploy the Space Marines and you don't fight as long and with
the collateral damage confined to a much smaller area.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Yeah, it's one of the things in 40K fluff that really stretch my suspension of disbelief. If it were 1Mio. Marines in every Chapter I could unterstand their importance. And then something like 200Mio. Marines per Legion during the Great Crusade? Okay, yeah, that could probably conquer several planets at once if supported by billions of guardsmen.
But merely 1000Marines? And more often than not they're even less, I wonder how that tiny, ridiculously small number of Blood Angels could do anything on Baal against the Tyranids.
Honest answer is because that is what the universe says can be done, lets say for arguments sake that it were true and we put them in the real world, as in we took marines as they are in the fluff with the crazy abilities and feats they have pulled off and transfered them to the real world, from our perspective its impossible, utterly impossible for 100 marines to take a planet, until they do it, suddenly we would change our tunes.... waffling over.
Yeah, I agree with you. I always tell a guy in our gaming group, who really dislikes Marines and basically only knows their tabletop performance and wonders why they seem that important in the fluff, that one has to imagine every single marine as an Avenger. A marine with jump pack is iron man, a marine with lightning claws is wolverine, A terminator with hammer is the Hulk and so on. With that in mind I could imagine 100 super heroes to conquer a planet or at least take out an enemy HQ in no time.
The problem is, that even in 40Ks fluff marines are often not portrayed that way. Instead they're holding the line in some trench, get overwhelmed by Ork boyz or get shot to pieces by some dangerous xenos gun. Like the whole imperial fists chapter gets destroyed by the first attack wave of the Orks when the Beast arises. Or in the case of Chaos Marines get fought off with bayonets of the imperial guard (see Dark Imperium). Or when a Blood Angels squad gets eaten by Tyranids like redshirts just for the lolz because the writer wanted to quote Aliens (see that one short story I forgot the name of). And that's where I start to doubt their importance.
I don't think you understand the scale of a planet. The D-Day landings in France involved 150,000 soldiers, all for a tiny area of land in one small country. On the scale of a planetary war even hundreds of thousands of troops is a small amount, and 500,000 space marines would be spread out across an immense area. The 1-2 space marines guarding each potential landing site could be easily overwhelmed by a mass attack.
Peregrine likes real world v 40k.
If it was d-day they just get 1 or 2, maybe a squad of marines to defend those bridges. If they even bothered.
Marines would prolly laugh at the d-day landings. Theyd drop a squad or 2 right on the Reichstaag, turn up kick Hitler and everyone within 1km in the balls, with a angry boot and say whos next, way back in 40.
If you think Himler or Borman are going to say woohoo, im in charge, after that your dreaming.
I don't think you understand the scale of a planet. The D-Day landings in France involved 150,000 soldiers, all for a tiny area of land in one small country. On the scale of a planetary war even hundreds of thousands of troops is a small amount, and 500,000 space marines would be spread out across an immense area. The 1-2 space marines guarding each potential landing site could be easily overwhelmed by a mass attack.
Peregrine likes real world v 40k.
If it was d-day they just get 1 or 2, maybe a squad of marines to defend those bridges. If they even bothered.
Marines would prolly laugh at the d-day landings. Theyd drop a squad or 2 right on the Reichstaag, turn up kick Hitler and everyone within 1km in the balls, with a angry boot and say whos next, way back in 40.
If you think Himler or Borman are going to say woohoo, im in charge, after that your dreaming.
Ive fooked that format up somehow.
this, people need to stop thinking of space marines as conventional soldiers they're used to apply precise military force and pressure at specific targets, aimed at shattering the enemythe guard can then mop up
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Yeah, it's one of the things in 40K fluff that really stretch my suspension of disbelief. If it were 1Mio. Marines in every Chapter I could unterstand their importance. And then something like 200Mio. Marines per Legion during the Great Crusade? Okay, yeah, that could probably conquer several planets at once if supported by billions of guardsmen.
But merely 1000Marines? And more often than not they're even less, I wonder how that tiny, ridiculously small number of Blood Angels could do anything on Baal against the Tyranids.
Honest answer is because that is what the universe says can be done, lets say for arguments sake that it were true and we put them in the real world, as in we took marines as they are in the fluff with the crazy abilities and feats they have pulled off and transfered them to the real world, from our perspective its impossible, utterly impossible for 100 marines to take a planet, until they do it, suddenly we would change our tunes.... waffling over.
Yeah, I agree with you. I always tell a guy in our gaming group, who really dislikes Marines and basically only knows their tabletop performance and wonders why they seem that important in the fluff, that one has to imagine every single marine as an Avenger. A marine with jump pack is iron man, a marine with lightning claws is wolverine, A terminator with hammer is the Hulk and so on. With that in mind I could imagine 100 super heroes to conquer a planet or at least take out an enemy HQ in no time.
The problem is, that even in 40Ks fluff marines are often not portrayed that way. Instead they're holding the line in some trench, get overwhelmed by Ork boyz or get shot to pieces by some dangerous xenos gun. Like the whole imperial fists chapter gets destroyed by the first attack wave of the Orks when the Beast arises. Or in the case of Chaos Marines get fought off with bayonets of the imperial guard (see Dark Imperium). Or when a Blood Angels squad gets eaten by Tyranids like redshirts just for the lolz because the writer wanted to quote Aliens (see that one short story I forgot the name of). And that's where I start to doubt their importance.
next time your IG player complains challange him to a game under your conditions. the conditions will be...
1: he may not take any dedicated anti-heavy infantry weapons. he takes flamers instead of plasma guns, heavy bolters and lascanons for his heavy weapons etc.
2: you may deploy your entire force via drop pod. on turn op 3: the game will not be balanced along points. (I'd give him a 3 to 1 troop ratio over you though as that's about the diff in SM vs IG company sizes)
4: he must conceed the game once his command units are destroyed.
because thats how space marines are gonna play. they'll come in fast, ahrd annialate key command elements and then the IG sweeps in. 40k just poorly reflects the differing doctrines of some races and tends to favor a stand up fight.
They only matter in 40K's fiction. They clearly don't matter on the table top. Everything about them is fueled by deus ex machina. They should have left them as space cops.
the ancient wrote: If it was d-day they just get 1 or 2, maybe a squad of marines to defend those bridges. If they even bothered.
Marines would prolly laugh at the d-day landings. Theyd drop a squad or 2 right on the Reichstaag, turn up kick Hitler and everyone within 1km in the balls, with a angry boot and say whos next, way back in 40.
If you think Himler or Borman are going to say woohoo, im in charge, after that your dreaming.
First of all, you're missing the point of the example. It wasn't a literal substitution of space marines into the real-world battle, it was highlighting the absurdity of how few marines there are. 100,000 marines seems like a lot until you realize that it's smaller than the D-Day invasion force, a not particularly large battle happening in one small region of one country. Spread those 100,000 marines out across an entire planet to have the marines protect every landing zone as the person suggested and you have a ridiculously weak defense. A massive assault force could land with maybe one or two marines at most to oppose it, and only a handful within range to arrive in time to do anything. And then it gets worse when you realize that 100,000 marines is a full 10% of the Imperium's entire total.
Second, what makes you think that marines would be on the invading side? They'd probably approve 100% of Hitler's actions and slaughter the invasion fleet.
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argonak wrote: 5) 100 super humans drop pod directly into the planetary government building and butcher everyone. A thunderhawk blasts its way through their air force and recovers the marines before the ground forces can respond.
Or, even easier approach: a ship in orbit puts a lance strike through the planetary government building with no need for space marines. If your goal is to destroy a point target from orbit there are much easier ways of doing it than sending a bunch of screaming idiots with chainsaw swords to go down and kill everyone.
as long as they control the local air space via thunderhawk and space based support.
That's a pretty big assumption. What exactly do space marines do against, say, a Tau networked air defense system capable of shooting down an entire chapter worth of drop pods in seconds? The assumption of immediate and total victory in the air and space battles means that space marines are only useful against low-tier enemies that can't fight back against even the fairly weak air and space forces of the space marines. And if you just need to deal with a poorly supplied rebel PDF then why do you need space marines instead of conventional forces?
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: one has to imagine every single marine as an Avenger.
Sure. Now imagine that the Avengers, instead of fighting against enemies that insist on running up and engaging in boxing matches, have to deal with a million artillery guns aimed at their location. The guns fire, everyone dies, end of story.
argonak wrote: 5) 100 super humans drop pod directly into the planetary government building and butcher everyone. A thunderhawk blasts its way through their air force and recovers the marines before the ground forces can respond.
Or, even easier approach: a ship in orbit puts a lance strike through the planetary government building with no need for space marines. If your goal is to destroy a point target from orbit there are much easier ways of doing it than sending a bunch of screaming idiots with chainsaw swords to go down and kill everyone.
Once again Peregrine forgets about the potential value of infrastructure.
Apple Peel wrote: Once again Peregrine forgets about the potential value of infrastructure.
A planetary government building is hardly vital infrastructure. And a space marine assault is hardly a calm and careful thing, stuff is going to get wrecked anyway.
JNAProductions wrote: There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters.
Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.
That's one million Marines.
Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.
Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000.
Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people.
Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people.
Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people.
And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen.
That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc.
That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.
How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?
Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.
I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.
If you don't think marines matter than you have never read a single HH novel. The game makes SM's look like nurglings, in the lore they are far more powerful, but they've never matter in relation to the IG, SM's at least after the HH have always been pretty much special forces, if the legions existed today at same strength and organisation as in the HH the Imperium would not be in as dire straights as they are. I mean a squad of SM's can turn the tide of a battle/war in the lore and most marines are sent out on missions as squads, I think you highly underestimate them, given the lore. I mean if you are really intersted in finding out read blood of asaheim and storm caller and you'll realise how effective even a squad of them can be or play SM for the PS3 lol
JNAProductions wrote: There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters.
Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.
That's one million Marines.
Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.
Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000.
Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people.
Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people.
Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people.
And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen.
That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc.
That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.
How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?
Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.
I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.
If you don't think marines matter than you have never read a single HH novel. The game makes SM's look like nurglings, in the lore they are far more powerful, but they've never matter in relation to the IG, SM's at least after the HH have always been pretty much special forces, if the legions existed today at same strength and organisation as in the HH the Imperium would not be in as dire straights as they are. I mean a squad of SM's can turn the tide of a battle/war in the lore and most marines are sent out on missions as squads, I think you highly underestimate them, given the lore.
So how much stronger is a Marine than a Necron Warrior?
Can 1 Marine take on 1 Warrior?
How about 5?
10?
100?
JNAProductions wrote: There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters.
Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.
That's one million Marines.
Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.
Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000.
Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people.
Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people.
Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people.
And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen.
That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc.
That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.
How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?
Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.
I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.
If you don't think marines matter than you have never read a single HH novel. The game makes SM's look like nurglings, in the lore they are far more powerful, but they've never matter in relation to the IG, SM's at least after the HH have always been pretty much special forces, if the legions existed today at same strength and organisation as in the HH the Imperium would not be in as dire straights as they are. I mean a squad of SM's can turn the tide of a battle/war in the lore and most marines are sent out on missions as squads, I think you highly underestimate them, given the lore.
So how much stronger is a Marine than a Necron Warrior?
Can 1 Marine take on 1 Warrior?
How about 5?
10?
100?
So this is just a 'I want my guys to be as awesome" thing? I mean you have to look at it as an Imperium vs Necron thing not a SM vs Nacron thing, a necron warrior is never going to be as powerful as a SM but an elite necron will. I mean does it really matter that much, love your army for your armies sake.
A Chapter sacrificed itself destroying a Necron world engine that up to that point had proven unstoppable. It had "tens of thousands" of necrons (which could be anything really and presumably many constructs) fighting against 772 Space Marines.
Okay. So call it 77,200 Necrons versus 772 Marines, or a factor of 100 to 1.
A single tomb world can have BILLIONS of Necrons-if you gathered every single Marine in the Galaxy to fight them, they'd be outnumbered 1,000 or more to 1.
Their numbers just seem too small to matter.
Edit: And I don't play Necrons. I just want to understand what I'm missing that makes Marines matter so damn much.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay. So call it 77,200 Necrons versus 772 Marines, or a factor of 100 to 1.
A single tomb world can have BILLIONS of Necrons-if you gathered every single Marine in the Galaxy to fight them, they'd be outnumbered 1,000 or more to 1.
Their numbers just seem too small to matter.
Edit: And I don't play Necrons. I just want to understand what I'm missing that makes Marines matter so damn much.
Well not every fight is fought in a phonebox. There could be a regiment of guard with them or Titan legions or there could be multiple chapters against a single foe. Saying why do they matter is like saying why do Nobz matter in an Ork army. I mean you sound like you've never read a single SM novel.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay. So call it 77,200 Necrons versus 772 Marines, or a factor of 100 to 1.
A single tomb world can have BILLIONS of Necrons-if you gathered every single Marine in the Galaxy to fight them, they'd be outnumbered 1,000 or more to 1.
Their numbers just seem too small to matter.
Edit: And I don't play Necrons. I just want to understand what I'm missing that makes Marines matter so damn much.
Well not every fight is fought in a phonebox. There could be a regiment of guard with them or Titan legions or there could be multiple chapters against a single foe. Saying why do they matter is like saying why do Nobz matter in an Ork army.
Because more than 1% of Orks are Nobz, And because Nobz are the leaders of Orks. Are Marines the leaders of Guardsmen? And do they comprise even a percent of a percent of humanities' numbers?
JNAProductions wrote: Okay. So call it 77,200 Necrons versus 772 Marines, or a factor of 100 to 1.
A single tomb world can have BILLIONS of Necrons-if you gathered every single Marine in the Galaxy to fight them, they'd be outnumbered 1,000 or more to 1.
Their numbers just seem too small to matter.
Edit: And I don't play Necrons. I just want to understand what I'm missing that makes Marines matter so damn much.
Well not every fight is fought in a phonebox. There could be a regiment of guard with them or Titan legions or there could be multiple chapters against a single foe. Saying why do they matter is like saying why do Nobz matter in an Ork army.
Because more than 1% of Orks are Nobz, And because Nobz are the leaders of Orks. Are Marines the leaders of Guardsmen? And do they comprise even a percent of a percent of humanities' numbers?
You're just being ridiculous now. Can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in comparison to their whole numbers.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay. So call it 77,200 Necrons versus 772 Marines, or a factor of 100 to 1.
A single tomb world can have BILLIONS of Necrons-if you gathered every single Marine in the Galaxy to fight them, they'd be outnumbered 1,000 or more to 1.
Their numbers just seem too small to matter.
Edit: And I don't play Necrons. I just want to understand what I'm missing that makes Marines matter so damn much.
Well not every fight is fought in a phonebox. There could be a regiment of guard with them or Titan legions or there could be multiple chapters against a single foe. Saying why do they matter is like saying why do Nobz matter in an Ork army.
Because more than 1% of Orks are Nobz, And because Nobz are the leaders of Orks. Are Marines the leaders of Guardsmen? And do they comprise even a percent of a percent of humanities' numbers?
JNAProductions wrote: Okay. So call it 77,200 Necrons versus 772 Marines, or a factor of 100 to 1.
A single tomb world can have BILLIONS of Necrons-if you gathered every single Marine in the Galaxy to fight them, they'd be outnumbered 1,000 or more to 1.
Their numbers just seem too small to matter.
Edit: And I don't play Necrons. I just want to understand what I'm missing that makes Marines matter so damn much.
Well not every fight is fought in a phonebox. There could be a regiment of guard with them or Titan legions or there could be multiple chapters against a single foe. Saying why do they matter is like saying why do Nobz matter in an Ork army.
Because more than 1% of Orks are Nobz, And because Nobz are the leaders of Orks. Are Marines the leaders of Guardsmen? And do they comprise even a percent of a percent of humanities' numbers?
You're just being ridiculous now.
How so? Please, explain.
Well first with the ork comment, the numbers are irrelevant to the point I was making, nor are their function. Secondly, can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in relation to their whole numbers.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Well first the ork comment, the numbers are irrelevant to the point, nor are there function. Secondly Can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in comparison to their whole numbers.
Give me an example of how Marines stop an entire army.
And don't give me BS about killing the command structure, like was talked about with Guard earlier. Cadia broke before the Cadians did, there's no way they'd just stop fighting and surrender if the officers aren't there.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Well first the ork comment, the numbers are irrelevant to the point, nor are there function. Secondly Can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in comparison to their whole numbers.
Give me an example of how Marines stop an entire army.
And don't give me BS about killing the command structure, like was talked about with Guard earlier. Cadia broke before the Cadians did, there's no way they'd just stop fighting and surrender if the officers aren't there.
Most Grey knights novels especially the omnibus. The Ragnar omnibus etc. but how bout Marneus Calgar everyone knows about his battle with the orks, where he held them back single-handedly. The HH novel (can't remember the name) the short story where the Wolves took on a whole army of eldar themselves. Then look to their cousins and see what the Custodes can do, they destroyed a whole army and only lost 3 men and they only had 10,000 at full capacity and it was never said how many actually fought.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Well first the ork comment, the numbers are irrelevant to the point, nor are there function. Secondly Can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in comparison to their whole numbers.
Give me an example of how Marines stop an entire army.
And don't give me BS about killing the command structure, like was talked about with Guard earlier. Cadia broke before the Cadians did, there's no way they'd just stop fighting and surrender if the officers aren't there.
Most Grey knights novels especially the omnibus. The Ragnar omnibus etc. but how bout Marneus Calgar everyone knows about his battle with the orks, where he held them back single-handedly. The HH novel (can't remember the name) the short story where the Wolves took on a whole army of eldar themselves.
I said of HOW, not where I can read it myself.
All you've said is "Marines did it" not HOW they did it.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Well first the ork comment, the numbers are irrelevant to the point, nor are there function. Secondly Can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in comparison to their whole numbers.
Give me an example of how Marines stop an entire army.
And don't give me BS about killing the command structure, like was talked about with Guard earlier. Cadia broke before the Cadians did, there's no way they'd just stop fighting and surrender if the officers aren't there.
Most Grey knights novels especially the omnibus. The Ragnar omnibus etc. but how bout Marneus Calgar everyone knows about his battle with the orks, where he held them back single-handedly. The HH novel (can't remember the name) the short story where the Wolves took on a whole army of eldar themselves.
I said of HOW, not where I can read it myself.
All you've said is "Marines did it" not HOW they did it.
Just like I said a squad defeated an army, you'd have to read them and tally every number they killed etc. I don't care If you want evidence where 5 of them killed every single 1000 or 10,000 by hand. That's not how war works, it doesn't matter how they are defeated, but even at that there are tonnes of stories like that, like the Calgar story.
Gael Knight wrote: No JNA for suggesting Custodes. Who typically didn't leave Terra and certainly didn't when this fluff piece about the World Engine was written.
They leave now.
Going by DC's logic, namely that numbers are entirely irrelevant when you're badass enough, clearly the Custodes should matter more than Marines.
And if you don't follow that logic, and say that numbers matter, then again-how many Warriors of the Necron variety are worth a Marine? Because there's billions of them on a planet. And billions on another. And another. And another.
Gael Knight wrote: No JNA for suggesting Custodes. Who typically didn't leave Terra and certainly didn't when this fluff piece about the World Engine was written.
They leave now.
Going by DC's logic, namely that numbers are entirely irrelevant when you're badass enough, clearly the Custodes should matter more than Marines.
And if you don't follow that logic, and say that numbers matter, then again-how many Warriors of the Necron variety are worth a Marine? Because there's billions of them on a planet. And billions on another. And another. And another.
I never said numbers don't matter, I actually said the contrary. You are making strawman's and you aren't making much sense. Numbers matter but so does quality of said numbers.
They rarely leave Terra now. It's like you don't really understand the fluff, or how humanity was subjugated by all manner of xenos abominations before the Great Crusade. Astartes break the backs of the most horrific foes.
You seem to be constantly shifting what matter means. You have an example where marines were the only ones to get the job done. That's why they matter. They shut down the shields of the World Engine and the remaining Imperial forces were able to destroy it.
If the Imperium could be retaken & held by the un-altered humans alone then the Emperor wouldn't have created the Astartes.
JNAProductions wrote: Fair-you did say numbers were irrelevant to your point at the moment, not overall.
But at the same time, 1,000 Guardsmen are, in most circumstances, better than a Marine.
And in the circumstances they're not better, a Custode is better than a Marine.
No I said the number of Nobz was irrelevant to their value in relation to the army. I never said the numbers of your army or opponent don't matter. Again you show that you haven't read a lot of the lore, you are focused on how much 1 soldier can kill equal to or over an above other factions soldier. You are asking why marines matter, well a squad of marines doesn't have to kill 1000 guardsmen in a battle royale. They can infiltrate and sabotage the 1000 marines; striking and retreating and keep doing that until they win, which they've done time and time again in the lore. That's why they matter, even though in a pitched battle royal type fight they can do far more damage than any other faction.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Well first the ork comment, the numbers are irrelevant to the point, nor are there function. Secondly Can a squad of necrons take on an army single handled: no. and if a squad could do that then its exponential in comparison to their whole numbers.
Give me an example of how Marines stop an entire army.
And don't give me BS about killing the command structure, like was talked about with Guard earlier. Cadia broke before the Cadians did, there's no way they'd just stop fighting and surrender if the officers aren't there.
loylaist guardsmen, whom are part of a large orginized military stationed in an area where they are equipped to deal with space Marines.
and the thing is, we don't need them to stop fighting and surrender, we need their command structure to be shattered so that they are unable to cordinate an effective defence, so that the Imperial guard, rather then deal with a prolonged fight with a cordinated enemy, instead gets to sweep up small confused remnaints.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: I’m sorry, 3:1 Guard to Marine ratio? If he has nothing but officers, sure, but there are one million marines total.
Individual planets have way more Guardsmen than that. By a massive margin.
Yes they do, but this is irrelevant because PLANETS ARE BIG that entire guard force is gonna be spread out, trying to hold the planet. the space Marines hit a single area, with concentrated force, causing a break down in communications and cordination, and then the Imperial Guard deploys to mop up. thats the ONLY way Marines can operate.
Perhaps the issue with Spacemarines is that they are much like a comic book character. A being that the writer wants to make seem super human in every respect but at the same time they need to be challenged by their opponent to try and make a compelling story. Then throw in the grim dark aspect of 40K where any being no matter how strong, can be wiped away by the brutality of war, the uncaring mass death of planet wide combat with alien races.
This leaves you with a being who is apparently worth 100 regular troopers with high quality armour and weapons but often die by the hundreds when fighting enemies who are meant to be capable of killing all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.
Compare the fluff, where you'd be lucky to have any sort of special or heavy weapons in a squad of gaurdsmen or orks, vs the actual game where often you'll have one in every single available slot. To the point where front line troopers feel sort of weak and obsolete with their boltgun or lasgun compared to the bunch of mooks with plasma guns.
Then factor in how often in fluff and reality you wouldn't be able to fire at a space marine as he wades through a squad a few meters away from you in a trench or no mans land due to the threat of frendly fire. You are less likley to fire at a bear if it's currently in the midst of a bunch of people An actual space marine in a modern day conflict would be rather terrifying. But then again so would most of the alien races.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps the issue with Spacemarines is that they are much like a comic book character. A being that the writer wants to make seem super human in every respect but at the same time they need to be challenged by their opponent to try and make a compelling story. Then throw in the grim dark aspect of 40K where any being no matter how strong, can be wiped away by the brutality of war, the uncaring mass death of planet wide combat with alien races.
This leaves you with a being who is apparently worth 100 regular troopers with high quality armour and weapons but often die by the hundreds when fighting enemies who are meant to be capable of killing all life in the galaxy if left unchecked.
Compare the fluff, where you'd be lucky to have any sort of special or heavy weapons in a squad of gaurdsmen or orks, vs the actual game where often you'll have one in every single available slot. To the point where front line troopers feel sort of weak and obsolete with their boltgun or lasgun compared to the bunch of mooks with plasma guns.
Then factor in how often in fluff and reality you wouldn't be able to fire at a space marine as he wades through a squad a few meters away from you in a trench or no mans land due to the threat of frendly fire. You are less likley to fire at a bear if it's currently in the midst of a bunch of people An actual space marine in a modern day conflict would be rather terrifying. But then again so would most of the alien races.
Welcome to 40k. SM's have ALWAYS been the badasses in 40k and have always been expressed as such by GW and their writers. I mean even in rogue trader they were pushed as the GW's no.1. There are myriad forces, someone has to be one top. The only people that have a problem with it are people that want their faction to be one top. I mean one of my favourite armies is DKK, I don't give too gaks that they aren't as powerful as marines. If people want their armies to be as powerful as marines then they should collect marines because they obviously don't appreciate their army. Look at Primaris, they are bigger and badder than CSM's and they have driven me even more into playing CSM's. I've completely fallen out of love with my SW's, I won't sell them but I haven't though about buying a new unit since this Primaris nonsense as they are no longer what my army used to be. I'm not moaning about it though, Primaris and tougher and stronger in the lore, so that's life.
The only Marines that truly do something non-Marines can are the Grey Knights because of their specialised anti-demons training and gear. The rest don't anything that can't be replaced by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and Stormtroopers drops.
Bobthehero wrote: The only Marines that truly do something non-Marines can are the Grey Knights because of their specialised anti-demons training and gear. The rest don't anything that can't be replaced by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and Stormtroopers drops.
Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.
You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently. A platoon of Stormtrooper dropped on a giant Ork Kill Kruizer and blew it by sabotaging it's engins before it could attack an Imperial System. It even works in Space Battle apparently :p.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.
You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently.
And why couldn't they do it... Yeah a squad of guardsmen can destroy artillery, doesn't mean they are proficient at it or better than marines at that. Again stormtroopers are a joke relatively in the 40k universe. Jesus these guard players that think their army are like Sly Marbo are embarrassing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.
You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently.
And why couldn't they do it... Yeah a squad of guardsmen can destroy artillery, doesn't mean they are good at it or better than marines at that.
Well the Space Marines COULDN'T do it, so I guess that since Stormtrooper could and did it that, in this particular instence, they were better at it.
PS: They weren't stealthy enough to do it. Stealth is the essence of any surprise assault behind enemy lines.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe. What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes? Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.
You are aware that at some point, when the Flesh Tearers could assault a fortress due its massive artillery and anti-air network, they called in Stormtroopers to make a stealth drop that they couldn't do and take out the big guns so their thunderhawks and other flyers could advance on the enemy and finish them off. A Stormtrooper company was also sent to destroy a Lord of Skull (and accompanying Khorne Berzerkers) by air dropping where no one expected them, ambush the big thing and destroyed it with point blank melta shots and grenades. Yeah, Stormtroopers can be used to attack and destroy artillery apparently.
And why couldn't they do it... Yeah a squad of guardsmen can destroy artillery, doesn't mean they are good at it or better than marines at that.
Well the Space Marines COULDN'T do it, so I guess that since Stormtrooper could and did it that, in this particular instence, they were better at it.
PS: They weren't stealthy enough to do it.
Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
Maybe not better individually, but far more available. It doesn't matter if space marines are great if they're so rare that the average war will not see even a single marine while storm troopers are common enough that most regiments have a storm trooper force (or their own equivalent, like grenadiers/kasrkin/etc).
Peregrine wrote: Maybe not better individually, but far more available. It doesn't matter if space marines are great if they're so rare that the average war will not see even a single marine while storm troopers are common enough that most regiments have a storm trooper force (or their own equivalent, like grenadiers/kasrkin/etc).
That's not the point though. The other two are trying to suggest that stormtroopers can fill in for and do SM's jobs, which is ridiculous.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.
You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.
PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.
Perhaps it depends on the battlefield? In the extreme weather patterns of the 40K universe, and the ulta-sophisticated shielding, stealth tech and such.
There would be many things only a space marine could do at short notice, using whatever they have in their set of standard equipment to "make it work." Maybe that's why in the fluff often the space marines are used as a last resort, like a swat team called in by police at an existing situation to go in and resolve a difficult issue.
Where as guard would lob explosives and humans at a problem in the hope it goes away a few squads of marines are meant to take out the crucial supports that keep the problem from collapsing under the guard.
Also, using flesh tearers as an example for anything may not be the best. They're a few chainaxes away from being Khornate Berserkers. Not the rounded force that other chapters should resemble.
cody.d. wrote: They're a few chainaxes away from being Khornate Berserkers. Not the rounded force that other chapters should resemble.
I agree with you on that. The only problem is that many Space Marine Chapters seem to be specialised and thus do not respond to the axiom that Space Marines are a flexible, fast deployment ultra-elite force. Now, with Primaris Marines, the idea that some elite human forces could be better then Space Marines in certain scenario is now impossible.
I suppose it is part of their design, and the imperium's in general that everything is a pale shadow of what it used to be. The current chapters are a joke compared to the Legions of old.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.
You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.
PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.
You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.
PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.
Sure.
He is correct.
In 998 M41, when a planet was taken over and being defended by SM renegades, both the Flesh Tearers and Militarum Tempestus forces arrived.
The Flesh Tearers attempted drop pod assault and flying stormravens and thunderhawks into the atmosphere, but were destroyed or annihilated by Firestorm Nexuses.
The Tempestor Prime of the Third Alphic Jackals, Vigilian, has his Scions cram into void-capable Valkyries, which dumped them from orbit with nothing more than an anti-thermal blanket equivalent and their armor. The renegades’ scanners mistook the Scions for orbital debris, ensuring a safe-from-being-blown-to-bits landing.
When into the atmosphere, the shrouds were removed, and the Scions grav-chuted quietly into position. They quickly captured the Firestorm Nexuses, and held them against the rebel army working with the renegades.
The Flesh Tearers are finally able to arrive, and traitorous leaders are cut off from escape by the Tempestus Scions in person, or their ships were shot down with the remaining Firestorm Nexuses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are plenty of other cases in which Scions have worked hand in hand with SMs within the old codex.
Bobthehero wrote: The only Marines that truly do something non-Marines can are the Grey Knights because of their specialised anti-demons training and gear. The rest don't anything that can't be replaced by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and Stormtroopers drops.
Nonsense. Do you really think war is summed up in total by only by artillery strikes, orbital strikes and stormtrooper drops (BWHAHAHAAHAHA Cough, cough)? Stormtroppers are worse than a cold butter knife in the 40k universe.
I mean, only if we're talking extreme close combat engagements against certain types of foes, you don't need to be a genetically engineered super soldier to infiltrate enemy lines and plant explosives or to fight many of the foes the Imperium faces, as proved by the fact that Stormtroopers and the Imperial Guard have vast litanies of victories all their own without any Space Marines at all.
Lets not forget that being 8ft tall, sporting bright primary colors, and weighing as much as a car has some issues when it comes to...well, most military operations
Likewise, many things that would find Stormtroopers no better than a cold butter knife won't find Space Marines to be much scarier. A Knight, Titan, Carnifex, Wraithlord, Tomb Stalker, Deffdred, Greater Daemon, heavy artillery shell, etc ad nauseum really doesn't see much difference.
What if your enemy has equal or better fire superiority when it comes to artillery or orbital strikes?
Then you're probably hosed anyway because when it comes to real warfare (and most 40k lore) those sorts of weapons are what generates the overwhelmingly vast majority of casualties. Few foes have artillery to match that of mundane human Imperial forces however.
Are you really going to call a few squads of stormtroopers to take out their artillery or board their battleships or are you going to call the ghostbusters... Lore states that they call the ghostbusters.
Except that in most instances there are no Ghostbusters, and the Stormtroopers end up having to take care of it because the Space Marines are so rare as to be nonexistent in most conflicts
The big issue with Space Marines is their numbers. GW doesn't really get galactic scales, and this leaves Space Marines so rare as to be mythical, not readily available resources in most campaigns.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.
You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.
PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.
Sure.
He is correct.
In 998 M41, when a planet was taken over and being defended by SM renegades, both the Flesh Tearers and Militarum Tempestus forces arrived.
The Flesh Tearers attempted drop pod assault and flying stormravens and thunderhawks into the atmosphere, but were destroyed or annihilated by Firestorm Nexuses.
The Tempestor Prime of the Third Alphic Jackals, Vigilian, has his Scions cram into void-capable Valkyries, which dumped them from orbit with nothing more than an anti-thermal blanket equivalent and their armor. The renegades’ scanners mistook the Scions for orbital debris, ensuring a safe-from-being-blown-to-bits landing.
When into the atmosphere, the shrouds were removed, and the Scions grav-chuted quietly into position. They quickly captured the Firestorm Nexuses, and held them against the rebel army working with the renegades.
The Flesh Tearers are finally able to arrive, and traitorous leaders are cut off from escape by the Tempestus Scions in person, or their ships were shot down with the remaining Firestorm Nexuses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are plenty of other cases in which Scions have worked hand in hand with SMs within the old codex.
I have no problem with the fact that scions work with them, but everyone here is ignoring the fact that they are saying that scions are as capable as SM's, which is patently REMOVED - BROOKM and how you;s are ignoring that point baffles me.
The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Exactly. A dog can fit through a pipe, if you strap a bomb on it to kill the enemy, then it must be "better" than a squad of stormtroopers being that they can't fit in the pipe a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
Scouts are grunt; they actually are the gruntiest, worst Space Marines you can conceive. They are teenagers in training, not experimented soldiers and no, the scouts couldn't do it, because they aren't trained in such difficult stealth air drop mission (else do would have used Scouts to do it, not call in Stormtroopers). Scouts can do basic reconnaissance missions, but they aren't exactly crack teams, they are in training.
You might not like it, but the Flesh Tearers couldn't take that fortress, but the Stormtrooper could and they did it with minimal casualties.
PS: According to their fluff, yes, Stormtroopers fill in for Space Marines frequently and even saved their bacon on several occasions.
Sure.
He is correct.
In 998 M41, when a planet was taken over and being defended by SM renegades, both the Flesh Tearers and Militarum Tempestus forces arrived.
The Flesh Tearers attempted drop pod assault and flying stormravens and thunderhawks into the atmosphere, but were destroyed or annihilated by Firestorm Nexuses.
The Tempestor Prime of the Third Alphic Jackals, Vigilian, has his Scions cram into void-capable Valkyries, which dumped them from orbit with nothing more than an anti-thermal blanket equivalent and their armor. The renegades’ scanners mistook the Scions for orbital debris, ensuring a safe-from-being-blown-to-bits landing.
When into the atmosphere, the shrouds were removed, and the Scions grav-chuted quietly into position. They quickly captured the Firestorm Nexuses, and held them against the rebel army working with the renegades.
The Flesh Tearers are finally able to arrive, and traitorous leaders are cut off from escape by the Tempestus Scions in person, or their ships were shot down with the remaining Firestorm Nexuses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are plenty of other cases in which Scions have worked hand in hand with SMs within the old codex.
I have no problem with the fact that scions work with them, but everyone here is ignoring the fact that they are saying that scions are as capable as SM's, which is patently REMOVED - BROOKM and how you;s are ignoring that point baffles me.
DO NOT CIRCUMVENT THE LANGUAGE FILTER
They can do quite similar jobs. Space Marines are a scalpel of deadly force. Scions are a thrusting dagger, but the very tip of the blade could be used in a similar fashion, with a little work.
Take, for instance, the scenario in which the 196th Omnicroid Hydras were sent to intercept the ork supakrooza, the “Brawla.”
The darned scrapheap was going to ram into Macharia if not stopped. The Scions used a sleek drop craft to land on the hull, where Taurox Primes (which have magnetic treads, in case you didn’t know) drove over to the engines. The Hydras deployed aboard, magboots allowing them to not fly off into the void, so they could set a line of melta charges. Thirty heavy-armored orks in some kind of exo-armor run across the deck. The Scions took tactical positions, many of them crouching to lower their profile, when the ship’s hull flashed. The Scions has been maglocked to the hull. Plasma teams opened fire, but exploded to a man. It was a tough fight, and many Scions were lost, even with Taurox Primes providing main cannon fire support. They called their drop craft over to help, and it did some laserwork on the ship, causing the electromagnetic field to dissipate, which made the rest of the orks float into the void.
The last of the Scions set the charges and evacuate. The ship is destroyed and Macharia is noted to report something akin to a firework show.
Some fluff space marines could probably have fared better, but Scions can still get the job done.
Dandelion wrote: The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.
No. The story is only remotely plausible with millions of marines per chapter. 1K marines dead is a bad afternoon vs a few Stormsurges. Or a single WMD. Even a billion total marines is stupid low for a galactic conflict. Galaxies are ENORMOUS.
The hacks who made this stuff up in the early days were NOT sci-fi authors and it shows.
Dandelion wrote: The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.
Chapters are specifically 1000 so that they can't go around conquering planets on their own anymore.
Chapters don't have large motor pools because that is not how they generally fight. They keep them for special circumstances, but their primary method of fighting is insertion via drop pod or thunder hawk, targeting critical areas of the enemy's formations, then quick retrieval before the enemy can mobilize against them. They will use armor and mobile transports when the situation means drop pods and thunder hawks aren't practical or available, but the vehicles ALSO have to be deployed via thunderhawk, so there's limitations.
Of course, war doesn't always go as planned and sometimes marines end up in protracted war. This usually sees them ground down rather quickly. A missile doesn't care if you're 1000 years old with super human reflexes, it just blows you up.
Dandelion wrote: The problem is that 1 million marines is a ludicrously small number in anything but a single planetary war. Plus, how many vehicles do these chapters get anyways? Are there only 10 predators for the entirety of the Ultramarines chapter? 20? Seems a bit thin to me.
imo, GW needs to up chapters to at least 10k marines and then have the total number of chapters be unknown. Boom, now there's always enough marines for whatever.
Chapters are specifically 1000 so that they can't go around conquering planets on their own anymore.
Chapters don't have large motor pools because that is not how they generally fight. They keep them for special circumstances, but their primary method of fighting is insertion via drop pod or thunder hawk, targeting critical areas of the enemy's formations, then quick retrieval before the enemy can mobilize against them. They will use armor and mobile transports when the situation means drop pods and thunder hawks aren't practical or available, but the vehicles ALSO have to be deployed via thunderhawk, so there's limitations.
Of course, war doesn't always go as planned and sometimes marines end up in protracted war. This usually sees them ground down rather quickly. A missile doesn't care if you're 1000 years old with super human reflexes, it just blows you up.
I guess my issue is that marines are said to able to conquer planets using only 100 marines, despite the fact that they'd run out of bullets/bolts first. Granted, GW also said that it only takes 20 cadres (2000-4000 Tau) to conquer a hive planet. (I heard this over on ATT since someone was complaining about how stupid it was, it might have been a Phil Kelly book) So maybe planets just suck at defending themselves? Or GW writers don't like numbers over a thousand.
I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.
1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.
To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.
That being said 40k is space fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. The guy with a sword has just as much power as a guy with a gun. Look to history. Everyone talks about mounted knights in the middle ages. Most armies didn't have that many...maybe a few hundred in an army of 20-30 thousand.
But they were a small elite force trusted to do an important task while supporting the army as a whole, which was comprised largely of dumb peasants who had been given a spear 3 days ago and told to walk with some other dumb peasants to go kill the enemy's dumb peasants with spears.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.
1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.
To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.
That being said 40k is space fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. The guy with a sword has just as much power as a guy with a gun. Look to history. Everyone talks about mounted knights in the middle ages. Most armies didn't have that many...maybe a few hundred in an army of 20-30 thousand.
But they were a small elite force trusted to do an important task while supporting the army as a whole, which was comprised largely of dumb peasants who had been given a spear 3 days ago and told to walk with some other dumb peasants to go kill the enemy's dumb peasants with spears.
Yeah until the dumb peasants started beeing mean and using formations.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.
1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.
To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.
That being said 40k is space fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. The guy with a sword has just as much power as a guy with a gun. Look to history. Everyone talks about mounted knights in the middle ages. Most armies didn't have that many...maybe a few hundred in an army of 20-30 thousand.
But they were a small elite force trusted to do an important task while supporting the army as a whole, which was comprised largely of dumb peasants who had been given a spear 3 days ago and told to walk with some other dumb peasants to go kill the enemy's dumb peasants with spears.
100 in an army of 30,000 is .3%.
1,000,000 in army of trillions is significantly less.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm of the opinion that the old '1000 chapters, 1000 marines' numbers are wrong, and haven't aged gracefully.
1000 line combat specialists with associated support staff makes it a mobile rapid response force.
To cover territory, there is probably more likely 5000 to 10000 chapters.
I'm going to disagree. There will always be as many marines as the story requires, so it doesn't matter if there are 1000 chapters of 1000 marines or a million chapters of a million marines. The background gives us low numbers but high mobility and autonomy. This means they can show up where needed, regardless of distance or jurisdiction. I'll admit this starts to wear thin when applied to an individual chapter like the Ultramarines who are apparently in every conflict everywhere, but that is just illustrative.
As marines are 'rare', it falls to other armies to take up the slack- the PDF to absorb and contain the initial attack of a foe, the guard to prosecute the war and the stormtroopers to make surgical strikes. The Imperium has an entire war machine outside of marines for the times when they are not there (as the narrative demands).
Functionally, marines save the lives of imperial soldiers by doing the jobs they would otherwise have to do- and perhaps could accomplish with heavy heavy losses. They also tank damage that would cripple normal soldiers, allowing for fewer space marine losses. They have the stamina to continue fighting when normal troops would need a rest break, recuperation etc, keeping the pressure on the enemy and accelerating the pace of conflict.
They in effect hand wave a lot of the non combat considerations of war- supply lines, morale, loyalty, infection, casualties, careful maneuver etc by turning up in space craft loaded with supplies, dropping directly onto the heads of their enemies and pulling triggers until all the enemy have exploded. This is great for players and stories unconcerned with the human element of war who just want to get to the ultraviolence.
Other forces can do all the combat things marines do, just with more forethought and consequence. Space marines don't do anything unique- they just do it better and in a more gratuitous fashion than other groups. And ultimately, that's what 40k is all about.
I think everyone is looking at Marines all wrong. Marines are not primarily a planetary force. They are a naval force with a very specialised type of artillery that can circumnavigate void shields and equivalents. The clue is even in the name- Space Marines. They are all about the void-to-planet interface.
Look at a typical Chapter fleet- they can even rival a Sector Navy fleet in power (especially in Battleship-class hulls), and have far more autonomy. Marines win most of their combat with ships, possibly without even needing to shoot in many cases- the mere threat of a strike cruiser in orbit is going to cause many rebels to surrender (similar to the Navy).
The Imperial Guard has good artillery, but it doesn't have lance strikes and bombardment cannons- it has to ask the Navy nicely for equivalent firepower. Marines have this by default, and make full use of this. The Marines themselves are essentially an additional form of reuseable artillery that is used to knock out targets resistant to orbital bombardment (like shielded government headquarters). The superhuman nature of Marines mean they will have an enormous sortie rate- as soon as one target is down, they are extracting and preparing for the next.
Marines are rare, sure, but so are important Imperial planets. There are ~1 million Imperial worlds (so a Marine per world), but only about 30000 of those are Hive worlds. The numbers of Forge and Fortress worlds are likely even lower. These are the only types of Imperial planet likely to have sufficient defenses to cause a strike cruiser or drop pod assault trouble, so the vast majority of Imperial worlds essentially have no real ability to counter a Marine force without a significant traitor naval force.
The numbers of Marines compared to the Guard are negligible, but the number of Marine combat vessels compared to the Navy is (whilst hard to quantify) almost certainly a much more favourable ratio (especially in terms of capital ships, which are the relevant vessels here for planetary assaults and fleet actions). Marines also hold some of the most powerful vessels in the Imperial arsenal. The Imperial Guard is irrelevant anyway without the Imperial Navy, as they cannot be moved to threatened worlds. Most of the local work is done by the Planetary Defense Forces.
They don't really do subtlety. Not when it's time for the axe to fall. They're messy. And deliberately so. Hence the general lack of camoflague, and the preference for Bolter and Chainsword. Both are ultimately overkill against most infantry - but then, that is the whole point.
Tie that into their common perception within The Imperium. They're bogeymen, with evidence, used to make people think very, very hard before launching into civil war or otherwise misbehaving.
Haighus wrote: I think everyone is looking at Marines all wrong. Marines are not primarily a planetary force. They are a naval force with a very specialised type of artillery that can circumnavigate void shields and equivalents. The clue is even in the name- Space Marines. They are all about the void-to-planet interface.
Look at a typical Chapter fleet- they can even rival a Sector Navy fleet in power (especially in Battleship-class hulls), and have far more autonomy. Marines win most of their combat with ships, possibly without even needing to shoot in many cases- the mere threat of a strike cruiser in orbit is going to cause many rebels to surrender (similar to the Navy).
The Imperial Guard has good artillery, but it doesn't have lance strikes and bombardment cannons- it has to ask the Navy nicely for equivalent firepower. Marines have this by default, and make full use of this.
This is important, as is the class structure of the Imperium to understanding why Marines are given this kind of free reign. Marines are viewed as angels, lords and knights by common imperial soldiery.
The Marines themselves are essentially an additional form of reuseable artillery that is used to knock out targets resistant to orbital bombardment (like shielded government headquarters). The superhuman nature of Marines mean they will have an enormous sortie rate- as soon as one target is down, they are extracting and preparing for the next.
Artillery that can hold ground or retrieve assets in a pinch but yes.
Marines are rare, sure, but so are important Imperial planets. There are ~1 million Imperial worlds (so a Marine per world), but only about 30000 of those are Hive worlds. The numbers of Forge and Fortress worlds are likely even lower. These are the only types of Imperial planet likely to have sufficient defenses to cause a strike cruiser or drop pod assault trouble, so the vast majority of Imperial worlds essentially have no real ability to counter a Marine force without a significant traitor naval force.
1 million worlds (roughly) and 1 million marines (roughly)
If ten percent of those worlds were engaged in wars at any one time (a staggering amount) there would be a tactical squad available for each and every world. In fact, the worlds are grouped in systems and sectors and the warzones might include tens or dozens of worlds. In that case there would be a demi company to a company available for each conflict.
Not every conflict gets space marine support though, so say the top ten percent do. That's roughly a chapter's worth of marines available for the conflict. 90% of actions would be carried out by Guard and Skittari, with occasional support from the Ecclesiarchy and Rogue Trader private armies.
not all of these conflicts would get a full chapter, but a couple hundred marines committing to a warzone makes taking out enemy warlords and space superiority much easier.
The numbers of Marines compared to the Guard are negligible, but the number of Marine combat vessels compared to the Navy is (whilst hard to quantify) almost certainly a much more favourable ratio (especially in terms of capital ships, which are the relevant vessels here for planetary assaults and fleet actions). Marines also hold some of the most powerful vessels in the Imperial arsenal. The Imperial Guard is irrelevant anyway without the Imperial Navy, as they cannot be moved to threatened worlds. Most of the local work is done by the Planetary Defense Forces.
Naval support is a critical part of Astartes action. Serious enemy fleets will require a lot of naval support but a strike cruiser and her escorts can handle a fleet of escorts and a cruiser. Marines are also much better suited to capturing an enemy ship intact than the alternative (flood it with armed imperial crewmen and hope they don't break everything )
Or indeed, imploding it's Warp Drive, or detonating it's Plasma Reactor. That's a fast, efficient way to deal with an enemy Capital Ship. Boarding Torpedo to the right section. Disgorge a demi-squad or two, let them absolutely tear through the enemy defenders. Bunch of strategic meltas, everyone back to the Torpedo, and trigger. Boom.
Job's a good'un.
And if you knock their shields down, just teleport some Terminator to their bridge. That's a fatal encounter right there!
epronovost wrote: They don't. They are a relic from more ancient time. They still exist, but their impact is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Only if you ignore the fact that they are always saving the imperium on a daily basis. Their impact is far from negligible. Their impact is massive. 1000 man armies that sway the tides of battle in literally every story we ever read about them. You just don't like marine fluff - you think it's outrageous. Serious question - why do you like this fantasy universe if you don't like it's protagonists? If you want a realistic story to read - why not read about real war?
I think Xenomancers hit the nail on the head here; 40k is about rule of cool. Do the marine numbers make sense? No, none whatsoever. But the idea of ten guys holding a breach in the wall against overwhelming odds is awesome, and that's what it's about.
Whether you like that is a matter of taste (I personally would welcome a bit more realism). The answer is to simply headcanon or ignore the bits that you don't like, especially since GW allows a multitude of writers with different styles and levels of quality to write about the setting.
epronovost wrote: They don't. They are a relic from more ancient time. They still exist, but their impact is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Only if you ignore the fact that they are always saving the imperium on a daily basis. Their impact is far from negligible. Their impact is massive. 1000 man armies that sway the tides of battle in literally every story we ever read about them. You just don't like marine fluff - you think it's outrageous. Serious question - why do you like this fantasy universe if you don't like it's protagonists? If you want a realistic story to read - why not read about real war?
I do read about real wars, it's part of my profession to read about real war. I indeed don't like the protagonist of the story. I don't hate them either. In small doses, I find them interesting. I think GW gives far too much sreen time to Space Marines to the detriment of their lore and univers they built. Obviously, I like this fantasy univers for its antagonists and sidecast.
I also think Haighus made the most reasonnable and credible answer in this thread so far.
Gael Knight wrote: The Imperium's grip was loosened during the heresy but ultimately it was restored by the Astartes.
Oh, I didn't know Lord Solar Macharius and Saint Alicia Dominica were Astartes? Cause they, not Astartes, led the two greatest crusades to restore the Imperium since the Horus Heresy.
What Astartes are, are special forces to an extreme. A protracted line battle is the worst place to put them; that they get stuck in them so often is mostly due to GW finding it "epic" and "awesome" more than demonstrating where they are their strongest.
epronovost wrote: They don't. They are a relic from more ancient time. They still exist, but their impact is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Only if you ignore the fact that they are always saving the imperium on a daily basis. Their impact is far from negligible. Their impact is massive. 1000 man armies that sway the tides of battle in literally every story we ever read about them. You just don't like marine fluff - you think it's outrageous. Serious question - why do you like this fantasy universe if you don't like it's protagonists? If you want a realistic story to read - why not read about real war?
I do read about real wars, it's part of my profession to read about real war. I indeed don't like the protagonist of the story. I don't hate them either. In small doses, I find them interesting. I think GW gives far too much sreen time to Space Marines to the detriment of their lore and univers they built. Obviously, I like this fantasy univers for its antagonists and sidecast.
I also think Haighus made the most reasonnable and credible answer in this thread so far.
Perfectly fine to like the Antagonists and side casts. Certainly you don't think marines don't matter though...You can't both like 40k lore and believe Marines don't matter - they are incompatible statements.
Gael Knight wrote: The Imperium's grip was loosened during the heresy but ultimately it was restored by the Astartes.
Oh, I didn't know Lord Solar Macharius and Saint Alicia Dominica were Astartes? Cause they, not Astartes, led the two greatest crusades to restore the Imperium since the Horus Heresy.
What Astartes are, are special forces to an extreme. A protracted line battle is the worst place to put them; that they get stuck in them so often is mostly due to GW finding it "epic" and "awesome" more than demonstrating where they are their strongest.
Marines aren't special forces. Marines are like a Roman legion which is a fully functional battle line. It is not a coincidence that Chapters are 1000 men. It is not a coincidence that their forces break down into smaller units with "combat squads" just like roman armies did. It is no coincidence that marines use Gladius swords and carry storm shields with giant armor. Does it make sense that a roman inspired army would be a military success in the real world with guns and super space fleets? NOPE. Then again...in this universe people still use swords and try to fight at close quarters so...arguments for realism don't belong here.
Perfectly fine to like the Antagonists and side casts. Certainly you don't think marines don't matter though...You can't both like 40k lore and believe Marines don't matter - they are incompatible statements.
Headcanon. In my opinion, Space Marines aren't the "protagonists" because they are important, but because they are popular. If, let say, Skitarii were the most popular faction, we would read dozens of books about them and know the dozens of declination between the various styles and sub-factions of the Skitarii and the Adeptus Mechanicus. We would know about their history and their battles, their heroes and villains. To me, the books and most of the lore of 40K is the stuff of legend more then the stuff of history. Guardsmen tell stories of Space Marines. They are legends of an ancient time where they used to be Legion and conquered whole world. They still exist. They are shadow of their former selves, but people still tell stories of their exploits passed, present and imagined or embelished and it's those stories we read about in books and codexes.
PS: A Roman Legion wasn't of a thousand men, but more around 4500. Also, a Centuria wasn't of hundred strong, but 80 or 160 depending on where they were on the battleline.
Headcanon is a weak excuse. You are just telling your own story the way you want it to be. That is totally fine too - just don't make absurd statements like Marines don't matter. Or Marines don't actually win battles or shape the 40k universe. There is no debate that they do these things.
What a Roman legion was varied a lot over the course of their history. 1000 is the common term that is thrown around - that is all that matters. The point is it was a very regimented force that broke down into smaller parts. Companies/ Squads/ Squads that could break up and fight in 5s to 3's. It destroyed their opponents. This is what space marines are. They beat their opponents with Roman tactics. They aren't a special forces unit. They are a fully functional army.
Xenomancers wrote: Marines are like a Roman legion which is a fully functional battle line
Just because a force has 1000 guys doesn't mean it's "like a roman legion". 1000 is just a nice sounding round number that Games Workshop picked up for consistency's sake, and nothing else. And ultimately, the Roman legions faced off against numbers similar to their own in most of their battles, rather than being horribly outnumbered (look for example at the Varian Disaster, where about 15k germanic "barbarians" ambushed and captured or killed around 20k legionnaries).
As for "arguments about realism have no place here", I'm actually arguing from their equipment. Marines are certainly not a mainline force, lacking the numbers to conquer hold a city with conventional tactics, let alone conquer and hold a planet. That's why they have other means available to them than line infantry. They are not equipped for a role as common line infantry or even shock infantry. They're equipped as a rapid strike force of special operatives, with things like drop pods and other numerous rapid transport and deployment options, expensive but powerful weaponry that has limited ammunition but is able to make a huge impact while it lasts, heavy armor and training suitable for close quarters fighting, getting basically first pick of some of the best technology available to the Imperium, and so on. The Imperial Guard are the Imperium's line infantry, not the Space Marines. They're equipped and trained for that role. Redundant ammo supplies, often trained minimally or in very specific roles, cheaper mass produced equipment, and so on. And they have the numbers for it, plus their commanders have the disregard for lives necessary for a lot of line infantry tactics.
=Angel= wrote: If ten percent of those worlds were engaged in wars at any one time (a staggering amount) there would be a tactical squad available for each and every world. In fact, the worlds are grouped in systems and sectors and the warzones might include tens or dozens of worlds. In that case there would be a demi company to a company available for each conflict.
Not every conflict gets space marine support though, so say the top ten percent do. That's roughly a chapter's worth of marines available for the conflict. 90% of actions would be carried out by Guard and Skittari, with occasional support from the Ecclesiarchy and Rogue Trader private armies.
not all of these conflicts would get a full chapter, but a couple hundred marines committing to a warzone makes taking out enemy warlords and space superiority much easier.
I just wanted to support this.
What people fail to understand is that despite what the lore implies, a vast majority of the Imperium is never touched by war. A planet even on the fringes of the Imperium can go for countless generations without seeing any kind of threat.
The lore says there are roughly 1 million inhabited worlds in the Imperium, and space marines literally show up at conflict zones, do their thing and head toward the next conflict zone. 10% of the planets being under siege in the Imperium is an unrealistically HUGE number, in all likelihood it is much smaller than that, probably around 1% at any given time. That means that there are roughly 100 marines for every planetary combat zone at any given time. This is a much more realistic number, but marines are also not that spread out. Some conflicts are turned by the presence of a single squad of marines, other conflicts see entire chapters of marines present, yet still most conflicts never see space marine involvement at all.
I agree with people saying that 1,000 marines conquering and holding a planet is silly and unrealistic. There are not enough of them to hold a planet no matter how good they are. But really, that isn't their job. A marine is the ultimate example of "force concentration" maximum warfare potential in the smallest space possible, because what they are really meant for are surgical attacks and boarding ships.
I do think "1,000 chapters of 1,000 marines" was written by people who had no sense of scale. But I also think those numbers work with how rare space marines are portrayed in the lore, and how devastating even a squad of them could be if delivered to the right place (IE the bridge of a capital ship, the command bunker of a planetary resistance).
The only thing that doesn't work IMO is how common space marine casualties are portrayed. Losing even a single marine should be a tragedy and considered a failure by that squad. Losing a company should put the entire chapter out of action for at least a decade.
w1zard wrote: I agree with people saying that 1,000 marines conquering and holding a planet is silly and unrealistic. There are not enough of them to hold a planet no matter how good they are. But really, that isn't their job. A marine is the ultimate example of "force concentration" maximum warfare potential in the smallest space possible, because what they are really meant for are surgical attacks and boarding ships.
Pretty much this exactly. That's why they have the equipment they do-- expensive equipment that does a whole lot in a short amount of time, high-tech rapid deployment vehicles, and so on.
A guardsman is equipped both cheaper and also for longer engagements than a marine is.
Xenomancers wrote: What a Roman legion was varied a lot over the course of their history. 1000 is the common term that is thrown around - that is all that matters. The point is it was a very regimented force that broke down into smaller parts. Companies/ Squads/ Squads that could break up and fight in 5s to 3's. It destroyed their opponents. This is what space marines are. They beat their opponents with Roman tactics. They aren't a special forces unit. They are a fully functional army.
That's the proper of any professional or even semi-professional army. They can all be reduced to smaller and smaller operational groups should the need arise. No large army can go without a chain of command and thus subdivision of the forces. Saying that the Space Marines have ranks and various operational sizes doesn't make them any different from any well organised army in history of which the Romans were not the first, though they certainly did developped the first army of enlisted volunteer professional in history. Ironicaly, Space Marines aren't even all volunteers, some are simply boys from primitive societies or little gangster claimed by the Space Marines and brainwashed then trained into Space Marines.
Sense of scale is a term of realism. Want to know what is unrealistic? Some marine charters go rouge and can compete with a million planet empire.
Guess the whole foundation of 40k is being propped up by stories of propaganda and legend. Marines are actually insignificant because they are too few. Great story there. I really want to read that story.
w1zard wrote: The only thing that doesn't work IMO is how common space marine casualties are portrayed. Losing even a single marine should be a tragedy and considered a failure by that squad. Losing a company should put the entire chapter out of action for at least a decade.
Space Marines casualty are common probably because, as powerful as they might be, they aren't that powerful and perhapse even weak when compared to the elite warriors of other races. Also, as tough as they might be, they can't really be described as tougher then tanks and any army should be able to deal with enemy tanks. The good thing is that it doesn't take that long to produce a new Space Marines. Compared to any actual modern day soldier, it's extremely long and would make them unreplaceable, but in the context of 40K with its decade and century long wars, it's not that bad. It can take as little as 5 years to produce a new Space Marine from boy to power armored titan.
Xenomancers wrote: What a Roman legion was varied a lot over the course of their history. 1000 is the common term that is thrown around - that is all that matters. The point is it was a very regimented force that broke down into smaller parts. Companies/ Squads/ Squads that could break up and fight in 5s to 3's. It destroyed their opponents. This is what space marines are. They beat their opponents with Roman tactics. They aren't a special forces unit. They are a fully functional army.
That's the proper of any professional or even semi-professional army. They can all be reduced to smaller and smaller operational groups should the need arise. No large army can go without a chain of command and thus subdivision of the forces. Saying that the Space Marines have ranks and various operational sizes doesn't make them any different from any well organised army in history of which the Romans were not the first, though they certainly did developped the first army of enlisted volunteer professional in history. Ironicaly, Space Marines aren't even all volunteers, some are simply boys from primitive societies or little gangster claimed by the Space Marines and brainwashed then trained into Space Marines.
It wasn't true of the armies they were fighting. It is a piece out of an era.
Xenomancers wrote: Guess the whole foundation of 40k is being propped up by stories of propaganda and legend. Marines are actually insignificant because they are too few. Great story there. I really want to read that story.
Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? That it's the story of trillions of people falling under the spell of some "space tyrant" and his army of loyal "black knights" fighting and dying for in his war and for his cause.
It wasn't true of the armies they were fighting. It is a piece out of an era.
The Macedonian army and that of all other Hellenistic kingdom were divided in numerous corp and smaller groups and so were the Sassanid in later era. Hell, even the Gauls had organised subdivision in their armies based on kindred and clans. None of these army were made of volunteer professionals though (with a possible exception for some units in Hellenic armies). Prior to the Romans, the Persian had started to design an army with various corp. and unit sizes for recruitment and administrative reasons more then tactical though.
=Angel= wrote: If ten percent of those worlds were engaged in wars at any one time (a staggering amount) there would be a tactical squad available for each and every world. In fact, the worlds are grouped in systems and sectors and the warzones might include tens or dozens of worlds. In that case there would be a demi company to a company available for each conflict.
Not every conflict gets space marine support though, so say the top ten percent do. That's roughly a chapter's worth of marines available for the conflict. 90% of actions would be carried out by Guard and Skittari, with occasional support from the Ecclesiarchy and Rogue Trader private armies.
not all of these conflicts would get a full chapter, but a couple hundred marines committing to a warzone makes taking out enemy warlords and space superiority much easier.
I just wanted to support this.
What people fail to understand is that despite what the lore implies, a vast majority of the Imperium is never touched by war. A planet even on the fringes of the Imperium can go for countless generations without seeing any kind of threat.
The lore says there are roughly 1 million inhabited worlds in the Imperium, and space marines literally show up at conflict zones, do their thing and head toward the next conflict zone. 10% of the planets being under siege in the Imperium is an unrealistically HUGE number, in all likelihood it is much smaller than that, probably around 1% at any given time. That means that there are roughly 100 marines for every planetary combat zone at any given time. This is a much more realistic number, but marines are also not that spread out. Some conflicts are turned by the presence of a single squad of marines, other conflicts see entire chapters of marines present, yet still most conflicts never see space marine involvement at all.
I agree with people saying that 1,000 marines conquering and holding a planet is silly and unrealistic. There are not enough of them to hold a planet no matter how good they are. But really, that isn't their job. A marine is the ultimate example of "force concentration" maximum warfare potential in the smallest space possible, because what they are really meant for are surgical attacks and boarding ships.
I do think "1,000 chapters of 1,000 marines" was written by people who had no sense of scale. But I also think those numbers work with how rare space marines are portrayed in the lore, and how devastating even a squad of them could be if delivered to the right place (IE the bridge of a capital ship, the command bunker of a planetary resistance).
The only thing that doesn't work IMO is how common space marine casualties are portrayed. Losing even a single marine should be a tragedy and considered a failure by that squad. Losing a company should put the entire chapter out of action for at least a decade.
Pretty much this. The Imperium itself is always at war, but not every world of it is. Of the fraction of worlds which have active conflicts, and of the fraction of those that do not require Astartes intervention (by virtue of the Imperium winning that war already), there should be enough Space Marines left to have enough effect. Again, all it takes is a squad of Marines to make a critical strike, and then they're off, making the fullest use of their greatest asset: massive force concentration and logistical superiority. As mentioned earlier, Space Marines have incredible combat mobility - not necessary from actual speed, but from their insanely brilliant ability to survive/recover from otherwise mortal wounds. A Space Marine casualty can be back on his feet mere days after catastrophic damage, whereas a human solider, even a Skitarii, isn't combat effective in nearly as much time. A Space Marine needs no sleep, needs no extended supply train, doesn't need to rely on a third party navy for transport.
A squad of Marines, or maybe more, depending on the strength of the enemy/importance of the mission, achieve a critical objective. They complete that, let other forces consolidate behind them to mop up survivors, continue the war, etc etc, while they're already moving onto a different objective, perhaps on another world or campaign front entirely.
That is the purpose of Space Marines - to live a life of constant war, from one critical pivotal mission to another, to act as the tip of the spear of the Emperor's armies.
Marines are a rapid response force. Highly mobile, sturdy and well trained and equipped. Each space marine carries with him several lifetimes worth of combat experience, knowledge, tactics and strategy.
Space marines inherited the philosophies and ideals of the emperor, they're not so easily manipulated, and most of the chapters are rather more forward and free thinking when compared to say, guard regiments or mechanicus battle groups.
Different chapters have different responses to different issues. Ultramarines, for example are a rather large chapter, with the ability to quickly replace their lost stock of marines. Where as a chapter such as the Crimson Fists, take losses that much harder as they're much more stretched and have to take much more time to replace casualties.
Xenomancers wrote: Guess the whole foundation of 40k is being propped up by stories of propaganda and legend. Marines are actually insignificant because they are too few. Great story there. I really want to read that story.
Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? That it's the story of trillions of people falling under the spell of some "space tyrant" and his army of loyal "black knights" fighting and dying for in his war and for his cause.
It wasn't true of the armies they were fighting. It is a piece out of an era.
The Macedonian army and that of all other Hellenistic kingdom were divided in numerous corp and smaller groups and so were the Sassanid in later era. Hell, even the Gauls had organised subdivision in their armies based on kindred and clans. None of these army were made of volunteer professionals though (with a possible exception for some units in Hellenic armies). Prior to the Romans, the Persian had started to design an army with various corp. and unit sizes for recruitment and administrative reasons more then tactical though.
"Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? "
Sure - History is great for that. Not that ether side is evil or good though. Perhaps their leaders but I don't need a fantasy world to fill that itch. For pure fantasy - A world where 1 man (a super man) can make a difference is much more interesting. A fantasy where the legends are real. The struggle is truly between good and evil. Or in the case of 40k. THe less evil vs the great evil. In reality a man is nothing. It only becomes more apparent in a 1million planet empire.
Regardless of military history prior to the Romans. The Fluff of the Astartes is very Roman. ESP the Ultramarines (who all codex compliant chapters aspire to be like) They wield gladius. Wear fluffy tails on their helms. Have Roman Nameology. The "Codex (Latin for Notebook) Astartes" I mean...come on. They aren't emulating Macedonians - they are emulating Romans. The whole Heresy is basically the Collapse of Rome and other events that happened during it's history. Then there are the non compliant and special chapters that each represent an era in history.
Obviously the White scars represent the Mongolian Empire.
Space Wolves Vikings
Black Templar the Crusaders of the middle ages in Europe
"Can you like a story in which the vast majority of the army of the evil Horus were regular humans? "
Sure - History is great for that. Not that ether side is evil or good though. Perhaps their leaders but I don't need a fantasy world to fill that itch. For pure fantasy - A world where 1 man (a super man) can make a difference is much more interesting. A fantasy where the legends are real. The struggle is truly between good and evil. Or in the case of 40k. THe less evil vs the great evil. In reality a man is nothing. It only becomes more apparent in a 1million planet empire.
If that's what scratches you itch, go ahead. I personnaly like my fiction to be about little people more than mythological heroes and I think a the univers built by GW is poor for that sort of story and requires too much suspention of disbelief, but that same univers is ideal for the stories of human fighting in wars of impossible cruelty and scope.
Regardless of military history prior to the Romans. The Fluff of the Astartes is very Roman. ESP the Ultramarines (who all codex compliant chapters aspire to be like) They wield gladius. Wear fluffy tails on their helms. Have Roman Nameology. The "Codex (Latin for Notebook) Astartes" I mean...come on. They aren't emulating Macedonians - they are emulating Romans. The whole Heresy is basically the Collapse of Rome and other events that happened during it's history. Then there are the non compliant and special chapters that each represent an era in history.
Obviously the White scars represent the Mongolian Empire.
Space Wolves Vikings
Black Templar the Crusaders of the middle ages in Europe
So on and so on.
On that we perfectly agree. The Space Marine are supremely derivative and are inspired by pretty much all popular military culture and organisations. So is the Imperial Guard and perhapse even to a greater extand, but it was left unexploited outside of some fluff and Fantasy Flight material.
Xenomancers wrote: Sense of scale is a term of realism. Want to know what is unrealistic? Some marine charters go rouge and can compete with a million planet empire.
When have a few chapters ever really competed with the Imperium? A few chapters could be pretty annoying. . . they could smash a few worlds, sow chaos in space along shipping lanes, and tangle up a lot of resources in taking them down. But compete? To the Imperium it means some planetary tithes are late, and they'll have to spin up some replacement chapters and rebuild some starships when the eventual drubbing is over.
Xenomancers wrote: Regardless of military history prior to the Romans. The Fluff of the Astartes is very Roman. ESP the Ultramarines (who all codex compliant chapters aspire to be like) They wield gladius. Wear fluffy tails on their helms. Have Roman Nameology. The "Codex (Latin for Notebook) Astartes" I mean...come on. They aren't emulating Macedonians - they are emulating Romans. The whole Heresy is basically the Collapse of Rome and other events that happened during it's history.
The Imperium as a whole has many Romanesque features. The Ultramarines themselves are increasingly heavily themed after the Eastern Roman Empire- the Byzantines. The very Greek half This is especially true in the Horus Heresy fluff and ties in neatly to the whole "Imperium Secundus" concept. They are supposed to be a sort of same-but-different counterpart to Imperial Terra. So actually, they are emulating Macedonians to a certain extent (especially as Rome in general emulated the Hellenic culture to some extent).
But aside from the overall Roman theming of the Imperium, Space Marines in general are not terribly Roman. Of the big 9, only the Ultramarines have generally Roman theming, with medieval Europe being the most common (Dark Angels and Imperial Fists being knightly types, Space Wolves being vikings, Blood Angels being renaissance* Italians). Other Chapters can (and do) emulate the Codex Astartes without emulating the Ultramarines culture itself. I'd say some version of medieval European culture is the most common theme for Marine Chapters, which does nicely suit the feudal set up of the post-Heresy Imperium.
*I know the renaissance overlaps both the medieval and early modern periods, but history isn't well defined. Certainly far removed from Rome proper, although inspired by it secondhand (thirdhand for the Blood Angels!)
It feels like certain posters are reacting to people saying "Space Marines specialize in, and indeed operate best, when doing lightning strikes and special forces type missions" as if that directly translates to think "Space Marines don't matter".
Xenomancers wrote: Sense of scale is a term of realism. Want to know what is unrealistic? Some marine charters go rouge and can compete with a million planet empire.
When have a few chapters ever really competed with the Imperium? A few chapters could be pretty annoying. . . they could smash a few worlds, sow chaos in space along shipping lanes, and tangle up a lot of resources in taking them down. But compete? To the Imperium it means some planetary tithes are late, and they'll have to spin up some replacement chapters and rebuild some starships when the eventual drubbing is over.
First of all sorry - I meant Legions not chapters. Pretty sure that existing for 10k years after killing/maiming the God emperor of man. Invading countless worlds and corrupting their citizens qualifies as competition. The reality is that the forces of Chaos could never stand against even a fraction of the imperial might. They do though. Why? Because Chaos is tricky and marines are awesome. It doesn't make sense. It's just fantasy. Just like marine fluff. Try to apply realism to this world and I can see why you wouldn't enjoy it.
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Melissia wrote: It feels like certain posters are reacting to people saying "Space Marines specialize in, and indeed operate best, when doing lightning strikes and special forces type missions" as if that directly translates to think "Space Marines don't matter".
Meh?
That is not actually the roll they fill. The roll they fill is they fight where they are needed most using whatever tactic is necessary because they specialize at everything related to war. Because they are always fighting and are modified in every way possible to be super soldiers. If they need to fight a long protracted battle they can do that. If they need to lighting strike they can do that. If they need to assassinate a warlord they can do that. If they can't do it. More marines can do it for sure.
Chaos can stand against the Imperium because of the Warp. They either outright convert Imperial forces to Chaos forces or strike out from the Eye where Chaos cannot be beaten. With how things in the setting work it makes reasonable sense that Chaos continues to exist.
epronovost wrote: Space Marines casualty are common probably because, as powerful as they might be, they aren't that powerful and perhapse even weak when compared to the elite warriors of other races. Also, as tough as they might be, they can't really be described as tougher then tanks and any army should be able to deal with enemy tanks. The good thing is that it doesn't take that long to produce a new Space Marines. Compared to any actual modern day soldier, it's extremely long and would make them unreplaceable, but in the context of 40K with its decade and century long wars, it's not that bad. It can take as little as 5 years to produce a new Space Marine from boy to power armored titan.
I fail to see how space marines live to be 200 years old regularly when 20% casualties per conflict are the norm in the lore. Not only that, 5 years to replace a single space marine is an underestimate, it is more like 10 years, and the washout rate is like 90+% because most aspirants cannot handle the implants. It may just be bias because the conflicts in which the marines take heavy casualties are usually the most "interesting" and are the ones always portrayed in the lore... but realistically a chapter would be militarily useless after 2 or 3 conflicts taking the number of casualties that space marine units are normally portrayed taking in a lot of the lore. Especially since the space marine creation process takes so long and has such low yields.
If we wanted to be realistic as to a chapter sustaining itself, it needs to generate more space marines than it loses... Most space marine chapters only get like 1 or 2 new marines per year, meaning that they can only really lose 1 or 2 marines per year to be sustainable. Going from those numbers, a marine squad should only lose a single squadmate in roughly 50-100 conflicts. yet we regularly see space marines losing half of the squad in a single battle, which is entirely unsustainable unless new marines are getting created as fast as guardsmen get conscripted.
epronovost wrote: Space Marines casualty are common probably because, as powerful as they might be, they aren't that powerful and perhapse even weak when compared to the elite warriors of other races. Also, as tough as they might be, they can't really be described as tougher then tanks and any army should be able to deal with enemy tanks. The good thing is that it doesn't take that long to produce a new Space Marines. Compared to any actual modern day soldier, it's extremely long and would make them unreplaceable, but in the context of 40K with its decade and century long wars, it's not that bad. It can take as little as 5 years to produce a new Space Marine from boy to power armored titan.
I fail to see how space marines live to be 200 years old regularly when 20% casualties per conflict are the norm in the lore. Not only that, 5 years to replace a single space marine is an underestimate, it is more like 10 years, and the washout rate is like 90+% because most aspirants cannot handle the implants. It may just be bias because the conflicts in which the marines take heavy casualties are usually the most "interesting" and are the ones always portrayed in the lore... but realistically a chapter would be militarily useless after 2 or 3 conflicts taking the number of casualties that space marine units are normally portrayed taking in a lot of the lore. Especially since the space marine creation process takes so long and has such low yields.
If we wanted to be realistic as to a chapter sustaining itself, it needs to generate more space marines than it loses... Most space marine chapters only get like 1 or 2 new marines per year, meaning that they can only really lose 1 or 2 marines per year to be sustainable. Going from those numbers, a marine squad should only lose a single squadmate in roughly 50-100 conflicts. yet we regularly see space marines losing half of the squad in a single battle, which is entirely unsustainable unless new marines are getting created as fast as guardsmen get conscripted.
Technically, the Scout company has no upper limit, so this can be handled by having massive Scout companies (or multiple- is it the Aurora Chapter that has three?). Some Chapters are specifically noted as having enormous recruitment rates, which suggests they have a huge number of initiates in the pipeline- perhaps not frontline combat units yet, but at least close to deployment. The Imperial Fists are a good example- they have multiple recruitment worlds, and seem to be able to replenish entire companies within a few years in extreme examples. The loss of experience would be huge, but the Marine creation process must be hugely developed and very efficient for them (they also have one of the better geneseed implantation rates, I want to say 70%?). Chapters with poor geneseed implantation are noted as being much slower to recover too, like the Salamanders.
Also worth bearing in mind that Marine casualties can often return back to service in a short time frame- casualties on the tabletop would generally equate to a recovered Marine for the Chapter. Of course in the fluff we see casualties a lot, but I think you are right to point out these are often the most significant conflicts against more dangerous foes. For example, we know there are thousands of minor xenos incursions and small rebellions that are put down all the time- these likely incur minimal casualties to a passing Marine force.
In terms of the age- there is probably a core of 200 year old veterans surviving conflict after conflict, surrounded by a larger number of constantly replenished younger Marines, with only the best and luckiest surviving to become veterans themselves.
I fail to see how space marines live to be 200 years old regularly when 20% casualties per conflict are the norm in the lore.
First, a 200 years old Space Marine is supposed to be exceptional. Very few Marines reach that age. Most of them aren't older then humans in similar position or maybe slightly more then that. The youngest Space Marine deployed aren't even adults. A Scout Space Marine can be as young as 15 years old. Also, casualties include wounded. Space Marines are very tough and hard to kill. They can survive crippling wounds and recover.
Not only that, 5 years to replace a single space marine is an underestimate
It's the minimum to go from teenage boy to Space Marine in power armor. It's not going to replace a Tactical Marine in one of the first 5 company, but it's a fully operational Space Marine. If there is nothing else, he will have to do the job.
it is more like 10 years, and the washout rate is like 90+% because most aspirants cannot handle the implants.
At worst, they can be mass produced then frozen until they need to be activated.
It may just be bias because the conflicts in which the marines take heavy casualties are usually the most "interesting" and are the ones always portrayed in the lore... but realistically a chapter would be militarily useless after 2 or 3 conflicts taking the number of casualties that space marine units are normally portrayed taking in a lot of the lore. Especially since the space marine creation process takes so long and has such low yields.
If we wanted to be realistic as to a chapter sustaining itself, it needs to generate more space marines than it loses... Most space marine chapters only get like 1 or 2 new marines per year, meaning that they can only really lose 1 or 2 marines per year to be sustainable. Going from those numbers, a marine squad should only lose a single squadmate in roughly 50-100 conflicts. yet we regularly see space marines losing half of the squad in a single battle, which is entirely unsustainable unless new marines are getting created as fast as guardsmen get conscripted.
By the fluff, the Ultramarine fully recovered from their battle againt Hive Fleet Behemoth where they lost over 80% of their numbers in a century. If they got the material (AKA geneseed and equipment) to produce a Space Marine, a Chapter can recover very quickly especially since they always train at least 10% of their total number in permanence. Space Marines Chapter can thus take about a 100 casualty every three to four years and not even go bellow maximum number.
Some marine chapters would be even more resilient, an iron hand for instance would very likely see the next battle after losing 4 limbs in a battle. half of them already being cybernetics.
Additionally, losing your last wound in game doesn't equate to dead in all situations. Simply unable to further take part in the fight. A regular human would probably be out of the round to the shoulder or leg, passing out due to the pain or bloodloss but very much able to be saved and healed.
A marine, with multiple redundant organs and that whole stasis cocoon thing would likely see the next battle except from the most powerful weapons.
Anyway, we shouldn't use tabletop rules to determine how good or bad a space marine is compared to a guardsmen. Tabletop rules need to be balanced for tabletop play.
Lorewise, If you ask me, a huge superhuman with two hearts clad in power armor will have a much lower attrition rate compared a guardsmen clad in a kevlar armor.
Heck in urban warfare (where you can't really bring heavy weapons to bear), that one space marine could probably keep on going and clear entire blocks if they are filled with just guardsmen with lasguns.
Quantity does have a quality of its own once it reaches a certain stage. But firstly, in certain environments (like urban warfare), then the benefits of quantity matters much less. Secondly, the mobility and independence of space marine units (They can go on and on without really requiring resupply), also reduces the benefits of quantity that guardmen may have. And where the benefits of having numbers are negated or reduced substantially, thats when space marines would definitely be much more sought after than just guardsmen.
Take an infested space hulk. You don't know if that Hulk is infested with chaos, tyranids, orcs, etc. But are you really going to send in squads of guardmen into its narrow corridors to investigate? What if there is no air even ? lol. What if there are important relics or STC you need to retrieve? Send in guardmen into that space Hulk ? If you had space marines, then its a no brainer to send them instead of guardsmen for such a mission. The guardsmen probably wouldn't survive 5 minutes.
Haighus wrote: Also worth bearing in mind that Marine casualties can often return back to service in a short time frame...
When I said casualties I meant deaths. I should have specified that.
epronovost wrote: First, a 200 years old Space Marine is supposed to be exceptional. Very few Marines reach that age.
No. Space marines over a century old are outright stated to be relatively common in the lore. Veterans over two centuries old are much less common, but still somewhat common. Completely anecdotal, but from my understanding a good 20-30% of all marines make it to 200 unless their chapter gets mauled ala hive fleet behemoth or something similar. This is completely at odds with marine forces taking 20% *deaths* every battle. Realistically no marine should survive past 40 if what is depicted in the lore is the norm because that is guard levels of attrition.
epronovost wrote: It's the minimum to go from teenage boy to Space Marine in power armor. It's not going to replace a Tactical Marine in one of the first 5 company, but it's a fully operational Space Marine. If there is nothing else, he will have to do the job.
I thought space marines recruited boys from the ages of 7-12... 5 years is barely enough time to turn them into a scout. A full fledged marine would probably take closer to 10 years. And again, this doesn't take into account wash out rate from implants failing or attrition from scout deaths.
epronovost wrote: At worst, they can be mass produced then frozen until they need to be activated.
I may be wrong but I don't think this was ever done in the lore. Space marine recruiting (at least in the 40th millennium) is a very traditional process steeped in mysticism. I don't think 40k marine chapters would ever do this, but if you can provide a lore example I would accept that.
epronovost wrote: By the fluff, the Ultramarine fully recovered from their battle againt Hive Fleet Behemoth where they lost over 80% of their numbers in a century. If they got the material (AKA geneseed and equipment) to produce a Space Marine, a Chapter can recover very quickly especially since they always train at least 10% of their total number in permanence. Space Marines Chapter can thus take about a 100 casualty every three to four years and not even go bellow maximum number.
Your math is wrong. It took almost 100 years for the ultramarines (1,000 in number) to recover 800 casualties. That is roughly 8 per year. A bit more then 2 per year I was stating earlier but a lot closer to my end of the spectrum than yours.
Please stop making excuses for bad writing and just accept that space marines should not be able to sustain the casualties that they are depicted as sustaining in most of the lore if what we know about how hard it is to generate new space marines is true. Even under contrived circumstances such as 70% implantation rate success and unrealistically large numbers of applicants, it doesn't mesh with the fact that most marines are pretty old, older than the average human.
Haighus wrote: Technically, the Scout company has no upper limit, so this can be handled by having massive Scout companies (or multiple- is it the Aurora Chapter that has three?). Some Chapters are specifically noted as having enormous recruitment rates, which suggests they have a huge number of initiates in the pipeline- perhaps not frontline combat units yet, but at least close to deployment. The Imperial Fists are a good example- they have multiple recruitment worlds, and seem to be able to replenish entire companies within a few years in extreme examples...
A chapter replenishing a company per two years is still not enough to offset the deaths of even a squad per battle. How many battles does a space marine chapter have in a year? Multiply that by ten. That many marines must be recruited per year in order to simply break even... and most lore depicts marine chapters losing more than a single squad per battle.
If we were talking realistically, the death of a single marine would be a significant event that was uncommon and only happened a few times per year. Once a month at most.
To be fair though. The lore tends to focus on only the big battles. It doesn't focus on the long periods of time spent training, in space warp transit, mustering, for space ship resupply, to replenish headcount, etc etc.
And not all missions are huge battles. Many are recon. And given how long and iffy even warp travel is, I bet half the time even when the space marines get there, there is nothing left.
Also, space marines are intelligent. Their chapter masters even more so. If they are in a "rebuilding" phase because their body count are low. They will not throw the whole chapter into a big battle of a meat grinder recklessly.
Eldenfirefly wrote: To be fair though. The lore tends to focus on only the big battles. It doesn't focus on the long periods of time spent training, in space warp transit, mustering, for space ship resupply, to replenish headcount, etc etc.
Marines don't like spending long times without fighting, as they feel their talents are being wasted. I don't have official numbers, but I would be willing to bet that space marines are not as inactive as the average guard regiment. I'm not saying that marines are fighting 24/7, but I would be very surprised if they didn't get at least 1 battle/skirmish a month on average, factoring in transport times between warzones.
No. Space marines over a century old are outright stated to be relatively common in the lore.
Where? I have never seen any "average age" of Space Marine stats ever. The only average age we have are the age transformation into Space Marine and the age of some Space Marines. Before Hive Fleet Behemoth attack, Chaplain Cassius was supposed to be the eldest Ultramarine at age 350 if I remember correctly.
I thought space marines recruited boys from the ages of 7-12... 5 years is barely enough time to turn them into a scout.
Scouts don't need the Black Carapace, in fact they don't have it. They do recruit children around 12 years old, but by the age of 15, they might have received all the new organs since most implantation can be simultaneous. Scout training usually last 2 or 3 years after which they receive a Black Carapace. Since Scouts are technically Space Marines, it takes three years to put them on the field and 2 or 3 more to have them move up to Devastator.
I may be wrong but I don't think this was ever done in the lore. Space marine recruiting (at least in the 40th millennium) is a very traditional process steeped in mysticism. I don't think 40k marine chapters would ever do this, but if you can provide a lore example I would accept that.
It does mention that people can be frozen to survive through long journey in space so it might have other applications. I have not heard of any Chapter doing it, but then again, I don't read that much stuff on Space Marines and I don't see why they couldn't do it. It seems like a sensible and simple solution to a problem. Cawl kept a huge number of Primaris Marine frozen afterall.
Your math is wrong. It took almost 100 years for the ultramarines (1,000 in number) to recover 800 casualties. That is roughly 8 per year. A bit more then 2 per year I was stating earlier but a lot closer to my end of the spectrum than yours.
The Ultramarine were not inactive during that period. They participated in several battles too.
it doesn't mesh with the fact that most marines are pretty old, older than the average human.
I would question this assertion that Space Marines are old. Special snowflake Marines we read about in a few books are old, older then humans, but they are special, not normal Marines. In the same fashion, we can read book about Inquisitors who are century old, but since they do such a dangerous job, most of them probably seldom live even close to that long. Same thing for Commissars and Sisters of Battle. The fluff mentions several of them bein over a century old, but I wouldn't take that as an average.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyway, we shouldn't use tabletop rules to determine how good or bad a space marine is compared to a guardsmen. Tabletop rules need to be balanced for tabletop play.
Lorewise, If you ask me, a huge superhuman with two hearts clad in power armor will have a much lower attrition rate compared a guardsmen clad in a kevlar armor.
Heck in urban warfare (where you can't really bring heavy weapons to bear), that one space marine could probably keep on going and clear entire blocks if they are filled with just guardsmen with lasguns.
Quantity does have a quality of its own once it reaches a certain stage. But firstly, in certain environments (like urban warfare), then the benefits of quantity matters much less. Secondly, the mobility and independence of space marine units (They can go on and on without really requiring resupply), also reduces the benefits of quantity that guardmen may have. And where the benefits of having numbers are negated or reduced substantially, thats when space marines would definitely be much more sought after than just guardsmen.
Take an infested space hulk. You don't know if that Hulk is infested with chaos, tyranids, orcs, etc. But are you really going to send in squads of guardmen into its narrow corridors to investigate? What if there is no air even ? lol. What if there are important relics or STC you need to retrieve? Send in guardmen into that space Hulk ? If you had space marines, then its a no brainer to send them instead of guardsmen for such a mission. The guardsmen probably wouldn't survive 5 minutes.
How big you reckon a Terminator is compared to a Taurox? I bet if lots of the hallways in the hulk could have two termies walking abreast of each other, you could fit a Taurox Prime and some Scions in a pinch if one didn’t have marines to deploy. Especially with the gothic Architecture.
The first door or 90 degree turn, that Taurox prime would be stuck. And while most lifts are designed for humans, I doubt most are designed for a Taurox prime.
To be honest. I do feel that most jobs a Termie would do an Ogryn with their beefy slab sheilds and a maul could do just as well. And you'd give zero effs about leaving them to complete the mission.
epronovost wrote: I would question this assertion that Space Marines are old. Special snowflake Marines we read about in a few books are old, older then humans, but they are special, not normal Marines. In the same fashion, we can read book about Inquisitors who are century old, but since they do such a dangerous job, most of them probably seldom live even close to that long. Same thing for Commissars and Sisters of Battle. The fluff mentions several of them bein over a century old, but I wouldn't take that as an average.
I really don't mean to be rude here, but is your argument really "ignore the fact that pretty much every named space marine character and all of the marines shown in the lore are far older than a standard human... most marines are in their 30s"?
Google "average age of a space marine", no idea if it is accurate or whatnot but what is the first thing that pops up?
300-350 years...
Even if that result isn't accurate, the fact that many people seem to believe it is means that what you are espousing isn't so clear cut.
Don't space marines have "service studs" signifying 100 years of service? Further proof that the age of the average space marine is far older than you seem to believe.
There is no way the average space marine is 300 years old if even 15% of the chapter dies in a major battle once a DECADE.
Once again, stop trying to defend bad writing. There is no way that space marine numbers would be sustainable given the average amount of casualties they are portrayed as taking in most of the lore.
I see a couple of issues discussed in this thread. One is how space marines are so few they can't commit to a meaningful number of missions. The other is the attrition rate of space marines.
As to the first issue, I like to believe that once they are in a war zone each marine will be flying several missions each day. Compare this to guard, who might do a guard or patrol every day or two with the occasional 'big push'. The space marine will be fighting an order of magnitude more missions than one of his guardsmen allies over the same time period.
This level of activity puts the marine at constant risk of casualty; fortunately he is many times more likely to avoid serious injury (whether through speed, skill, equipment or experience) and is better able to fight on through injury. When the marine suffers an injury serious enough enough to take him out of combat he has a much faster recovery speed than a guardsmen. Fly him back to base, slap a new arm on to him and tomorrow he is fighting fit again. A guardsmen could need months of rehabilitation or be retired. The final thing, is despite how difficult it is to mortally wound a space marine they also have a cheat; Sus-an. If not immediately killed by a mortal wound he will go into a state of suspended animation and if he is lucky get 'fixed' or if appropriate wired into a suit of dreadnought armour. There are plenty of veteran marines that are quadruple amputees with a third of their head replaced by bionics and vital organs replaced with automated systems (hi Calgar! Honestly, your primaris upgrade must have been little more than giving you some platform boots and a primaris sticker on your bonnet. Is there even a human part of you left anymore?! Your one good eye?).
So in culmination, amarine makes 10 times as many missions, is worth 10 times as many men on those missions, is 10 times less likely to be injured and recovers 10 times faster when he is. Used properly in a war one marine is worth over a thousand guardsmen (I'm not saying a marine wins a fight one vs 1000 on an empty battlefield)! On a galactic scale do they make a difference? I dunno, but if they are deployed with you on campaign they sure do!
I really don't mean to be rude here, but is your argument really "ignore the fact that pretty much every named space marine character and all of the marines shown in the lore are far older than a standard human... most marines are in their 30s"?
Most Marines presented in the fluff on which we have "intimate" information are member of the first 5 companies and most often officers, the most experimented Space Marines. Most Marines presented in the fluff on which we have "intimitate" information are officers, not regular Marine. We don't know the exact age of most Space Marines we read about. At best, we have estimates.
Don't space marines have "service studs" signifying 100 years of service? Further proof that the age of the average space marine is far older than you seem to believe.
Service stud can signify any length of time from a single, year, a decade or even just the number of campaign they have won honor on. There is no set meanong for the service stud.
There is no way the average space marine is 300 years old if even 15% of the chapter dies in a major battle once a DECADE.
Once again, stop trying to defend bad writing. There is no way that space marine numbers would be sustainable given the average amount of casualties they are portrayed as taking in most of the lore.
The simplest solution would be for you to stop holding the belief Space Marines median age is century old instead of a few decades,
Just a question, where are people getting this "20% of Space Marines die every battle" statistic?
Sure, we see battles with HORRIFIC Space Marine casualties (not necessarily deaths though), but these are always treated as tragic events and rare occurrences. But for standard wars and "normal" Marine missions, 20% sounds incredibly far fetched, even for casualties, not just deaths.
Take the Assault on Black Reach novella - Ultramarines 2nd Company attack Black Reach, acting very much in the way I think Space Marines *should* behave. They're not in the war for very long, but make several strikes within short spaces, and over the course of their entire duration fighting, I think it's something like 6 Space Marines, and one Terminator, who actually die. I won't include casualties, because that's largely negligible - they'll be back up and running by the next battle anyways, so they're hardly a massive loss.
So, 7 Space Marines, out of a full Battle Company + auxiliary forces (lets say 20 Astartes from the 1st and 10th Companies combined): that's what, 120-130 Space Marines? That's a death rate of about 6%.
Bear in mind that the missions we see the Marines undertake are:
Deepstriking in to blunt the main Ork offensive as it is about to overwhelm the planetary defenders, and drive them back with shock and awe tactics.
Scout out and destroy Ork camps in hit and run raids.
Plant homing beacons on Ork submersibles to locate their central base.
Act as lynchpin units in the defence of the main Imperial base.
Attack the Ork stronghold with overwhelming force via Thunderhawk gunships, and destroy the Ork's leader.
After doing this, they leave the rest of the Imperial forces to mop up the rest, and move on to the next war.
Ultimately the issue boils down to the fact that 40k is really more Fantasy in space than hard scifi, the setting has changed dramatically since inception and is wildly variable and inconsistent, and GW in general has a very poor sense of Galactic scale (the numbers of IG troops on Armageddon given for that gargantuan system wide war were fewer than were found on the Eastern Front in WW2 for instance). At the very least there should be tens of billions of Space Marines and they'd still be mythically rare.
With regards to SM casualties, a third of the Dark Angels chapter was lost in the siege of Vraks in relatively short order in what ultimately was a sideshow battle, but that never seems to have any effect on them or even be mentioned anywhere else
This was the same Vraks campaign that no SM chapter would touch on its own, that the Munitorum expected would take 5 centuries of stormtrooper commando operations to retake on their own, and ultimately took 18 years of gruelling attritional siege by millions of guardsmen
Vaktathi wrote: Ultimately the issue boils down to the fact that 40k is really more Fantasy in space than hard scifi, the setting has changed dramatically since inception and is wildly variable and inconsistent, and GW in general has a very poor sense of Galactic scale (the numbers of IG troops on Armageddon given for that gargantuan system wide war were fewer than were found on the Eastern Front in WW2 for instance). At the very least there should be tens of billions of Space Marines and they'd still be mythically rare.
With regards to SM casualties, a third of the Dark Angels chapter was lost in the siege of Vraks in relatively short order in what ultimately was a sideshow battle, but that never seems to have any effect on them or even be mentioned anywhere else
This was the same Vraks campaign that no SM chapter would touch on its own, that the Munitorum expected would take 5 centuries of stormtrooper commando operations to retake on their own, and ultimately took 18 years of gruelling attritional siege by millions of guardsmen
DA are heretics in disguise. Do you really think they follow the chapter code?
epronovost wrote: Service stud can signify any length of time from a single, year, a decade or even just the number of campaign they have won honor on. There is no set meanong for the service stud.
The shortest length of time that any service stud represents is 10 years, the longest is 100 years based on material. Marines are regularly depicted having multiple service studs.
epronovost wrote: The simplest solution would be for you to stop holding the belief Space Marines median age is century old instead of a few decades,
Again, google "average age of a space marine"... if you have contradictory lore that backs up your assertion that the average marine is in his 30s I would be glad to hear it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, 7 Space Marines, out of a full Battle Company + auxiliary forces (lets say 20 Astartes from the 1st and 10th Companies combined): that's what, 120-130 Space Marines? That's a death rate of about 6%.
Even an attrition rate of 6% per battle is unsustainable because marines participate in dozens of battles per year.
Put this into perspective... say 12 battles a year at 6% attrition means that for a chapter of 1000 space marines only about 600 would be alive at the end of the year. A chapter of marines are really getting replenished at a rate of ~400 per year? Why did it take the ultramarines a century to replace 800 losses then?
except DO Space Marines participate in "dozens a battles a year"? that was the entire fatality rate for the black reach campaign. travel in 40k takes awhile, as does in system transit. (it's rarely if ever details but intrsystem transit would take time) they might participate in a doizen battles (*ala fights) a year, but not a dozen campaigns a year
Vaktathi wrote: Ultimately the issue boils down to the fact that 40k is really more Fantasy in space than hard scifi, the setting has changed dramatically since inception and is wildly variable and inconsistent, and GW in general has a very poor sense of Galactic scale (the numbers of IG troops on Armageddon given for that gargantuan system wide war were fewer than were found on the Eastern Front in WW2 for instance). At the very least there should be tens of billions of Space Marines and they'd still be mythically rare.
With regards to SM casualties, a third of the Dark Angels chapter was lost in the siege of Vraks in relatively short order in what ultimately was a sideshow battle, but that never seems to have any effect on them or even be mentioned anywhere else
This was the same Vraks campaign that no SM chapter would touch on its own, that the Munitorum expected would take 5 centuries of stormtrooper commando operations to retake on their own, and ultimately took 18 years of gruelling attritional siege by millions of guardsmen
DA are heretics in disguise. Do you really think they follow the chapter code?
Apart from the Ravenwing and Deathwing they're pretty much the same on Chapter only basis.
Vaktathi wrote: Ultimately the issue boils down to the fact that 40k is really more Fantasy in space than hard scifi, the setting has changed dramatically since inception and is wildly variable and inconsistent, and GW in general has a very poor sense of Galactic scale (the numbers of IG troops on Armageddon given for that gargantuan system wide war were fewer than were found on the Eastern Front in WW2 for instance). At the very least there should be tens of billions of Space Marines and they'd still be mythically rare.
With regards to SM casualties, a third of the Dark Angels chapter was lost in the siege of Vraks in relatively short order in what ultimately was a sideshow battle, but that never seems to have any effect on them or even be mentioned anywhere else
This was the same Vraks campaign that no SM chapter would touch on its own, that the Munitorum expected would take 5 centuries of stormtrooper commando operations to retake on their own, and ultimately took 18 years of gruelling attritional siege by millions of guardsmen
DA are heretics in disguise. Do you really think they follow the chapter code?
Apart from the Ravenwing and Deathwing they're pretty much the same on Chapter only basis.
You are missing the point. You can't trust the DA. They kill other Astartes to keep their secrets. If they'll do that what else will they do?
BrianDavion wrote: except DO Space Marines participate in "dozens a battles a year"? that was the entire fatality rate for the black reach campaign. travel in 40k takes awhile, as does in system transit. (it's rarely if ever details but intrsystem transit would take time) they might participate in a doizen battles (*ala fights) a year, but not a dozen campaigns a year
I wasn't claiming they take place in dozens of interplanetary campaigns a year... merely a dozen battles or as you put it "fights".
I find it hard to believe that a marine would see less action then a guardsman, and I have already shown how even with 12 battles a year (one per month) and a measly 6% death rate per battle that space marine recruitment rates are still unsustainable.
I think peeps also need to keep in mind that the brutality of The Imperium is nigh on beyond our comprehension. And Marines are a significant part of that.
Consider if Marines attacked us, that we’re actually a lost world of Man, that’s just called itself Earth.
Right now? You could more-or-less utterly cow our planet with precision strikes on The White House/Pentagon, The Kremlin and wherever China has its Army Command (I don’t actually know that myself!). All at once. 5 Marines a piece, so a single drop Pod each, ought to do it.
Over. In. An. Instant. The main military strength of our entire planet ripped out, root and stem. In minutes. The intergalactic RKO OUTTA NOWHERE!
The fear of that keeps systems inline, 40k’s very own Tarkin Doctrine. It ensures Planetary Governers tend to actually do their job. This all helps keep The Imperium ticking. I mean, you could full yourself into genuinely thinking your PDF is strong enough to resist The Astra Militarum. But Astartes? It takes a very special kind of mental to think you could possibly resist them. Sure, that kind of mental does exist. But it’s still comparatively rare.
Vaktathi wrote: Ultimately the issue boils down to the fact that 40k is really more Fantasy in space than hard scifi, the setting has changed dramatically since inception and is wildly variable and inconsistent, and GW in general has a very poor sense of Galactic scale (the numbers of IG troops on Armageddon given for that gargantuan system wide war were fewer than were found on the Eastern Front in WW2 for instance). At the very least there should be tens of billions of Space Marines and they'd still be mythically rare.
With regards to SM casualties, a third of the Dark Angels chapter was lost in the siege of Vraks in relatively short order in what ultimately was a sideshow battle, but that never seems to have any effect on them or even be mentioned anywhere else
This was the same Vraks campaign that no SM chapter would touch on its own, that the Munitorum expected would take 5 centuries of stormtrooper commando operations to retake on their own, and ultimately took 18 years of gruelling attritional siege by millions of guardsmen
DA are heretics in disguise. Do you really think they follow the chapter code?
Apart from the Ravenwing and Deathwing they're pretty much the same on Chapter only basis.
You are missing the point. You can't trust the DA. They kill other Astartes to keep their secrets. If they'll do that what else will they do?
You can say that about lots of Chapters. Iron Hands kill other humans for being weak, Salamanders and Blood Angels are deviant mutants, some Chapters kill humans just because they dislike that abhuman strain, Raven Guard had demonic gene seed for a bit and so on.
DA aren't really heretics. They're incredibly shady and somewhat unreliable but there are much worse Chapters than the Unforgiven ones.
DA are far from the only chapter to kill other Marines for CYA purposes, or even just for questions of honor.
Regardless, a third of them died on Vraks, and those sorts of losses should cripple a chapter for years if not decades given how long it takes to replace a Marine, but stuff like that is rarely accounted for in 40k fluff, at least not in any meaningful or realistic way.
Vaktathi wrote: DA are far from the only chapter to kill other Marines for CYA purposes, or even just for questions of honor.
Regardless, a third of them died on Vraks, and those sorts of losses should cripple a chapter for years if not decades given how long it takes to replace a Marine, but stuff like that is rarely accounted for in 40k fluff, at least not in any meaningful or realistic way.
Well, 40K fluff is also strewn across centuries or millennia, too. So even if it takes a chapter a hundred years to get back to full strength, that doesn't really matter too much in terms of the timescales 40k operates under.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, 7 Space Marines, out of a full Battle Company + auxiliary forces (lets say 20 Astartes from the 1st and 10th Companies combined): that's what, 120-130 Space Marines? That's a death rate of about 6%.
Even an attrition rate of 6% per battle is unsustainable because marines participate in dozens of battles per year.
That's not 6% per battle though. That's 6% over the course of the entire Black Reach campaign, which featured at least three full scale company/demi-company engagements, against large Ork concentrations, which undoubtedly would increase the risk of said casualties.
If we assume that Space Marines don't engage in full scale conflict as their norm, and that most engagements are on the squad/small taskforce level, as most non-Marine focused fictions indicates (Gaunt's Ghosts and other guardsman fiction, which is less focused on the Marines themselves), then you're looking at situations where Astartes can engage in combat as quickly as they can get there, and the majority of their engagements are done with fewer than 6% deaths, and most likely fewer than 1%.
Put this into perspective... say 12 battles a year at 6% attrition means that for a chapter of 1000 space marines only about 600 would be alive at the end of the year. A chapter of marines are really getting replenished at a rate of ~400 per year? Why did it take the ultramarines a century to replace 800 losses then?
The entire Chapter is rarely deployed all at once on active duty for this reason. Even with their fatality rates of most likely fewer than 1% per engagement, they can replace losses where necessary through the reserve companies, and then from the Scouts. At a 1% casualty rate per mission (depending on how the Chapter fights and what kind of fights they end up in), the Chapter only needs to replenish 100 soldiers - an entire Scout Company, conveniently enough. And of course, should the Chapter suffer inordinarily, the Chapter simply doesn't fight as much, or fights more conservatively.
Again, still no clarification on where the whole "20% of Astartes die per engagement" came from.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think peeps also need to keep in mind that the brutality of The Imperium is nigh on beyond our comprehension. And Marines are a significant part of that.
Consider if Marines attacked us, that we’re actually a lost world of Man, that’s just called itself Earth.
Right now? You could more-or-less utterly cow our planet with precision strikes on The White House/Pentagon, The Kremlin and wherever China has its Army Command (I don’t actually know that myself!). All at once. 5 Marines a piece, so a single drop Pod each, ought to do it.
Over. In. An. Instant. The main military strength of our entire planet ripped out, root and stem. In minutes. The intergalactic RKO OUTTA NOWHERE!
The fear of that keeps systems inline, 40k’s very own Tarkin Doctrine. It ensures Planetary Governers tend to actually do their job. This all helps keep The Imperium ticking. I mean, you could full yourself into genuinely thinking your PDF is strong enough to resist The Astra Militarum. But Astartes? It takes a very special kind of mental to think you could possibly resist them. Sure, that kind of mental does exist. But it’s still comparatively rare.
Yeah, also this. I mean, not quite that simple but in principle that's a typical "internal affairs" mission for marines.
epronovost wrote: Service stud can signify any length of time from a single, year, a decade or even just the number of campaign they have won honor on. There is no set meanong for the service stud.
The shortest length of time that any service stud represents is 10 years, the longest is 100 years based on material. Marines are regularly depicted having multiple service studs.
epronovost wrote: The simplest solution would be for you to stop holding the belief Space Marines median age is century old instead of a few decades,
Again, google "average age of a space marine"... if you have contradictory lore that backs up your assertion that the average marine is in his 30s I would be glad to hear it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, 7 Space Marines, out of a full Battle Company + auxiliary forces (lets say 20 Astartes from the 1st and 10th Companies combined): that's what, 120-130 Space Marines? That's a death rate of about 6%.
Even an attrition rate of 6% per battle is unsustainable because marines participate in dozens of battles per year.
Put this into perspective... say 12 battles a year at 6% attrition means that for a chapter of 1000 space marines only about 600 would be alive at the end of the year. A chapter of marines are really getting replenished at a rate of ~400 per year? Why did it take the ultramarines a century to replace 800 losses then?
This is correct:
Insignium Astartes wrote:SERVICE STUDS
These are small metal rivets that are attached directly to the Marines' cranium to record years of service. A single stud records 10, 50 or 100 years of service depending on its design and the Chapter traditions. The awarding of service studs is described in the Codex but is not set out as an official requirment or regulation of the Chapter. In recent centuries the awarding of service studs has been on the decline and fewer Chapters continue the practice.
However, that means a variation of 20 to 200 years for a typical Marine character (most bre Marine heads have 2 service skulls in the model range). Most bare heads also represent Captains and Sergeants- exactly the sort of Marines who might have survived for two centuries. Or maybe just two decades.
However, it is canonical that 400 is exceedingly old for an Ultramarine, but not a Blood Angel or a Space Wolf. That suggests it varies hugely by Chapter. We also know some Chapters seem to have much higher attrition rates than others (notably the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists having high turn-overs), so it is hardly surprising that the average age of a Marine is much lower for some Chapters than others- it clearly depends on activity.
The Ultramarines likely took a century to replace 800 losses because they were still actively engaging in combat missions during that time, and having to replace fresh combat losses alongside those from the First Tyrannic War. The Ultramarines are one of the most active Chapters in the Imperium with an extremely high turn-over rate, as well as having an exceptionally large personal domain to protect. It is not surprising that they continued to partake in campaigns during this period.
For examples, Lexicanum lists the following battles as having occurred within the century following the Battle of Macragge:
M41 — The Battle for Orar's Sepulchre — The first battle fought by the bulk of the Chapter since the First Tyrannic War.
759.M41 — Scouring of Quintarn — Marneus Calgar take personal command of forces driving out Ork scavengers who had captured the Systems of Quintarn, Tarentus, and Masali in the aftermath of Hive Fleet Behemoth.[2b]
790.M41 — The Nimbosa Crusade
797.M41 — The Siege of Zalathras
805.M41 — The Ultramarines and the Imperial Guard defended Jorun's World from Warlord Gorklaw's Waaagh![46]
812.M41 — The Luxor Uprising
822.M41 — The Ironblood Campaign
That is a lot of major combats within that hundred years.
In terms of casualty replacement rates- a Chapter with a notably high attrition rates (Imperial Fists) was able to replace the loss of an entire company within less than a year (the 3rd company, following the defense of Hydra Cordatus). Whilst a Captain and a core of Veterans were pulled from other companies, this probably means about 90% of the Company was reformed in a single year. That is pretty impressive, but shows the kind of recruitment resources some Chapters can bring to bear.
In terms of the number of campaigns a year- it seems pretty typical for a Marine force to have one or two major campaigns a year, so 6% deaths are reasonably tolerable at two campaigns a year- at least for the efficient recruiters.
Vaktathi wrote: DA are far from the only chapter to kill other Marines for CYA purposes, or even just for questions of honor.
Regardless, a third of them died on Vraks, and those sorts of losses should cripple a chapter for years if not decades given how long it takes to replace a Marine, but stuff like that is rarely accounted for in 40k fluff, at least not in any meaningful or realistic way.
Well, 40K fluff is also strewn across centuries or millennia, too. So even if it takes a chapter a hundred years to get back to full strength, that doesn't really matter too much in terms of the timescales 40k operates under.
In some ways that's fair, but then we have the problem of rare marine chapters doing nothing for decades and being even rarer. With the Dark Angels however, we have fluff of them doing all sorts of things relatively soon after (the siege of vraks being late 800's M41), and without any mention of losing a third of the chapter, a mighty blow, in other fluff of theirs.
It's emblematic of the problem with 40k fluff in that it really doesn't make sense when looked at critically, and kinda just needs to be accepted as "because the author says so" in general as opposed to there being any rationality behind the relevance of Space Marines in the larger universe
Same way it makes no sense to have chapters or legions that do lots of attritional warfare/sieges/frontal assaults/etc. I play Iron Warriors and the idea of them being attritional siege specialists able to battle across entire systems with a Grand Company is ridiculous once you look at what that would entail, despite how cool it can look on paper
Haighus wrote: In terms of the number of campaigns a year- it seems pretty typical for a Marine force to have one or two major campaigns a year, so 6% deaths are reasonably tolerable at two campaigns a year- at least for the efficient recruiters.
I didn't mean 6% deaths per campaign, I meant 6% deaths per battle... of which there are many battles in a campaign. Space marines are regularly shown in the lore losing upwards of a quarter to a half of their numbers in routine battles/skirmishes, I was only giving them 6% to be generous.
But let's go your way and say a space marine chapter only loses 6% of their number over a campaign and they have two campaigns a year. That means they need to replace over 115 marines every single year, which is ~20% more than what even the Imperial Fists' benchmark of a company per year. The numbers still don't match up.
On top of that, I fail to see how space marines reach 100 years of age regularly when even the low rate of 6% deaths per campaign is considered the norm. Running the numbers, and (using your assumption that marines fight two campaigns per year with a death rate of 6% per campaign) the average marine has only a .0004% chance of being alive after 100 years of fighting (plug (940/1000)^200 into wolfram alpha) which means that those 100 year service studs are pretty freaking pointless. The numbers get even worse if we consider more realistic death rates.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The entire Chapter is rarely deployed all at once on active duty for this reason.
So, the majority of space marines sit around on their asses for years at a time doing nothing? From my understanding, they are all almost always fighting... maybe broken up and spread out over countless light years, but fighting all the same.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Even with their fatality rates of most likely fewer than 1% per engagement, they can replace losses where necessary through the reserve companies, and then from the Scouts. At a 1% casualty rate per mission (depending on how the Chapter fights and what kind of fights they end up in), the Chapter only needs to replenish 100 soldiers - an entire Scout Company, conveniently enough. And of course, should the Chapter suffer inordinarily, the Chapter simply doesn't fight as much, or fights more conservatively.
Ok, I'm tired of people moving the goalposts... so let's do this. Say collectively, a chapter (that may be spread out over a large number of planets) suffers only 3% deaths per YEAR due to fighting, for 100 years straight. This means no heavy losses, no getting mauled, no losing a battle, just losing a single marine here or there collectively. I think we all agree that this is an absolutely tiny number and in no way indicative of how space marine losses are usually portrayed in the lore but let's go down this path for arguments sake. At this rate, the average space marine would only have a 4% chance of being alive after 100 years of fighting... Again this should show you how utterly unrealistic and impossible these numbers are. Especially when we have lore stating that the average age of a space marine is 300-350 years, and many battles being portrayed with high marine casualties.
Gael Knight wrote: Lots of seething guard players in here unable to know their role of holding the line while Astartes do the heavy lifting. Space Marine Legions retook the Empire you are serving. You're welcome.
Yep, pure butthurt from Guard players. That's all it is.
Again, google "average age of a space marine"... if you have contradictory lore that backs up your assertion that the average marine is in his 30s I would be glad to hear it.
Actually, the answer on google comes from a post made on a forum that doesn't link to any lore beside the mention of Dante's age and Blood Angel's logevity. It's a bald assertion and not authoritative at all. Illustrations of Space Marines are illustration of noteworthy, veteran and heroic Space Marines so can hardly be used to draw an average unless you want the average of the exceptional.
This Space Marine is a Captain. According to the color of his service stud, he is around 50 years old (maybe, maybe he's around 170 at most, I find it to grey to be silver, but I might be wrong). Since he is quite literaly in the top 1% of his Chapter in terms of experience and excellence, it's probable he is also in the top 1% in terms of age and experience. Pretty much all the Space Marines in this Chapter should thus be younger then him.
Gael Knight wrote: Lots of seething guard players in here unable to know their role of holding the line while Astartes do the heavy lifting. Space Marine Legions retook the Empire you are serving. You're welcome.
Yep, pure butthurt from Guard players. That's all it is.
Pure fanboying from space marine players, you mean.
Vaktathi wrote: You mean the dudes that tore it asunder in the first place over daddy issues?
The troops that are so rare that most of the Imperium's wars are won without ever seeing a single one?
The guys that aren't trusted to lead and command the vast fighting armies of the Imperium anymore without special dispensation?
The same retaking that was accomplished primarily by normal human troops because there were more worlds than marines?
Guardsmen rebel or otherwise show disloyalty at far greater frequency even when taking into account the disparity in numbers between the two organizations, you just don't hear about it because guardsmen are too stupid and incompetent relative to the Astartes to accomplish anything when they do so.
If ten regiments of the Imperial Guard go rogue who cares? Just kill them when it is convenient and be done with it. A chapter of Space Marines goes traitor? Well, now there's an actual problem.
Again, google "average age of a space marine"... if you have contradictory lore that backs up your assertion that the average marine is in his 30s I would be glad to hear it.
Actually, the answer on google comes from a post made on a forum that doesn't link to any lore beside the mention of Dante's age and Blood Angel's logevity. It's a bald assertion and not authoritative at all. Illustrations of Space Marines are illustration of noteworthy, veteran and heroic Space Marines so can hardly be used to draw an average unless you want the average of the exceptional.
This Space Marine is a Captain. According to the color of his service stud, he is around 50 years old (maybe, maybe he's around 170 at most, I find it to grey to be silver, but I might be wrong). Since he is quite literaly in the top 1% of his Chapter in terms of experience and excellence, it's probable he is also in the top 1% in terms of age and experience. Pretty much all the Space Marines in this Chapter should thus be younger then him.
service studs are so randomly treated I'd not be inclined to accept those at face value, especially as numerous pictures of space Marine veterns have them with no service studs are waaay too few (Calgar for example is rarely illustrated with them and when he is it's rarely eneugh to represent his estimated 300+ years of service)
BrianDavion wrote: you're assuming an aweful lot, service studs denate differant things in differant chapters, and in some chapters they don't mean anything beyond "I like studs in my head" thus it's possiable those studs mean he's serves for 30 years, possiable he's served for 150 years, possiable he's served for 300 years. or maybe he's served only 5 years but he really thinks studs are a great fashion statement.
We are all assuming a whole lot about the average age of Space Marines. It's all assumption because the exact age of any single Marine is rarelly mentionned. I read the first omnibus of the Ultramarine and I have no clue as to how old is Uriel Ventris or anybody else in the book. I have read Hellsreach, but can't tell you the age of Grimaldus. Hell, the only Space Marines I know the age of off are basically Cassius, Logan, Dante and Lyzander. None of these is are even close to normal Space Marines. It would make sense they seldom live centuries (unless they are gifted or very lucky) since they fight in wars and wars are deadly things.
BrianDavion wrote: you're assuming an aweful lot, service studs denate differant things in differant chapters, and in some chapters they don't mean anything beyond "I like studs in my head" thus it's possiable those studs mean he's serves for 30 years, possiable he's served for 150 years, possiable he's served for 300 years. or maybe he's served only 5 years but he really thinks studs are a great fashion statement.
We are all assuming a whole lot about the average age of Space Marines. It's all assumption because the exact age of any single Marine is rarelly mentionned. I read the first omnibus of the Ultramarine and I have no clue as to how old is Uriel Ventris or anybody else in the book. I have read Hellsreach, but can't tell you the age of Grimaldus. Hell, the only Space Marines I know the age of off are basically Cassius, Logan, Dante and Lyzander. None of these is are even close to normal Space Marines. It would make sense they seldom live centuries (unless they are gifted or very lucky) since they fight in wars and wars are deadly things.
we don't really know the ages of a lot of those ones eaither, Logan IIRC all we know is roughly when he became the great wolf, but for all we know he'd been leading a great company for a few hundred years before that.
I do seem to recall reading somewhere that Ragnar at the fall of Cadia was only something like 70 years of age. but that's clearly not the norm. Although it IS a good source for us to caution about assuming Captains all have the longest service record, Captains are appointed on Merit, and not seniority clearly
Haighus wrote: In terms of the number of campaigns a year- it seems pretty typical for a Marine force to have one or two major campaigns a year, so 6% deaths are reasonably tolerable at two campaigns a year- at least for the efficient recruiters.
I didn't mean 6% deaths per campaign, I meant 6% deaths per battle... of which there are many battles in a campaign. Space marines are regularly shown in the lore losing upwards of a quarter to a half of their numbers in routine battles/skirmishes, I was only giving them 6% to be generous.
But let's go your way and say a space marine chapter only loses 6% of their number over a campaign and they have two campaigns a year. That means they need to replace over 115 marines every single year, which is ~20% more than what even the Imperial Fists' benchmark of a company per year. The numbers still don't match up.
On top of that, I fail to see how space marines reach 100 years of age regularly when even the low rate of 6% deaths per campaign is considered the norm. Running the numbers, and (using your assumption that marines fight two campaigns per year with a death rate of 6% per campaign) the average marine has only a .0004% chance of being alive after 100 years of fighting (plug (940/1000)^200 into wolfram alpha) which means that those 100 year service studs are pretty freaking pointless. The numbers get even worse if we consider more realistic death rates.
And where are you getting this "6% die per battle" stat again? Because that's not at all what I put down.
My post was saying that over the course of the entire Ultramarines CAMPAIGN on Black Reach, they lost 7 Astartes, which was about 6% of their entire force. In this campaign, they undertook at least 3 large scale engagements with a sizeable foe, and at least 3 other smaller engagements.
This is a fatality rate of ~1%, and even IF this is universal for every individual battle, we've clearly seen how Space Marines can, and do, recover from these kinds of losses, and this doesn't cripple them.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The entire Chapter is rarely deployed all at once on active duty for this reason.
So, the majority of space marines sit around on their asses for years at a time doing nothing? From my understanding, they are all almost always fighting... maybe broken up and spread out over countless light years, but fighting all the same.
Not the majority. Most likely, the line companies are all deployed, and then reinforced as per their losses by reserves. That's over 50% of the Chapter on active duty.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Even with their fatality rates of most likely fewer than 1% per engagement, they can replace losses where necessary through the reserve companies, and then from the Scouts. At a 1% casualty rate per mission (depending on how the Chapter fights and what kind of fights they end up in), the Chapter only needs to replenish 100 soldiers - an entire Scout Company, conveniently enough. And of course, should the Chapter suffer inordinarily, the Chapter simply doesn't fight as much, or fights more conservatively.
Ok, I'm tired of people moving the goalposts... so let's do this.
I moved no goalposts. First there was an assumption of 20% (from seemingly nowhere, might I add), then a misunderstanding of 6% being per BATTLE, not per campaign. I'm just correcting your honest oversight here, no goalpost moving intended.
Say collectively, a chapter (that may be spread out over a large number of planets) suffers only 3% deaths per YEAR due to fighting, for 100 years straight. This means no heavy losses, no getting mauled, no losing a battle, just losing a single marine here or there collectively. I think we all agree that this is an absolutely tiny number and in no way indicative of how space marine losses are usually portrayed in the lore but let's go down this path for arguments sake. At this rate, the average space marine would only have a 4% chance of being alive after 100 years of fighting...mAgain this should show you how utterly unrealistic and impossible these numbers are. Especially when we have lore stating that the average age of a space marine is 300-350 years, and many battles being portrayed with high marine casualties.
Even if your maths were spot on, we both know that averages don't always align to reality, even in OUR world. It's not hard to think that, while the "average" Marine is unlikely to survive that long, the Chapters are full of "special" Marines, ones who defy all odds and go on to do great things. It makes the Veterans look all so much better if they truly are in that 4% bracket to reach that kind of age.
Vaktathi wrote: You mean the dudes that tore it asunder in the first place over daddy issues?
The troops that are so rare that most of the Imperium's wars are won without ever seeing a single one?
The guys that aren't trusted to lead and command the vast fighting armies of the Imperium anymore without special dispensation?
The same retaking that was accomplished primarily by normal human troops because there were more worlds than marines?
Guardsmen rebel or otherwise show disloyalty at far greater frequency even when taking into account the disparity in numbers between the two organizations, you just don't hear about it because guardsmen are too stupid and incompetent relative to the Astartes to accomplish anything when they do so.
Citation Needed.
As is, at least 50 full post-heresy chapters have turned traitor, with innumerable squads, companies, and individuals following that path according to several iterations of Chaos Space Marine codex, in addition to *half* the original batch. Add in those Marines created/produced by the renegades and traitor legions and it's as likely as not that any given Space Marine one happens to come across is a heretic.
It's worth noting as well that assault on Black Reach was a "notable engagement" eneugh to feature as a starter set and novella. chances are that means it's not exactly typical of a normal space marine battle but is more "one of the exciting spaecial engagements"
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I moved no goalposts. First there was an assumption of 20% (from seemingly nowhere, might I add), then a misunderstanding of 6% being per BATTLE, not per campaign. I'm just correcting your honest oversight here, no goalpost moving intended.
No, I came up with those numbers, because it was my honest anecdotal opinion. Space marines in the lore are regularly depicted as taking horrific casualties (read: deaths) as the norm. See Vraks, see Behemoth's siege of Macragge, see many other battles. My opinion was formed from reading countless guard and space marine novels. I do realize that it is entirely my opinion, but so far the rebuttal of "Nuh-Uh! those battles are exceptional and the average space marine death rate is much lower" is ALSO entirely a fething opinion, because none of those minor skirmishes are depicted in the lore either.
6% deaths per battle was my attempt to be GENEROUS, because I would be willing to bet if we took the death rate for every battle depicted in space marine lore and averaged them together it would be a whole lot worse than 6%.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Even if your maths were spot on, we both know that averages don't always align to reality, even in OUR world. It's not hard to think that, while the "average" Marine is unlikely to survive that long, the Chapters are full of "special" Marines, ones who defy all odds and go on to do great things. It makes the Veterans look all so much better if they truly are in that 4% bracket to reach that kind of age.
So basically you are saying that numbers or statistics don't matter to you because of the rule of cool, got it. Because frankly, a survival rate of 4% to vetrancy is much lower than what is depicted in the lore.
The only statement that I was making was that "Hm, space marines taking all of these casualties all of the time would be pretty unrealistic purely from a sustainability perspective." To argue "Nuh-Uh! Totally realistic" and then completely handwave the statistics behind survival rates because "The space marines we see are special and those don't matter" is pretty disingenuous.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I moved no goalposts. First there was an assumption of 20% (from seemingly nowhere, might I add), then a misunderstanding of 6% being per BATTLE, not per campaign. I'm just correcting your honest oversight here, no goalpost moving intended.
No, I came up with those numbers, because it was my honest anecdotal opinion. Space marines in the lore are regularly depicted as taking horrific casualties (read: deaths) as the norm. See Vraks, see Behemoth's siege of Macragge, see many other battles. My opinion was formed from reading countless guard and space marine novels. I do realize that it is entirely my opinion, but so far the rebuttal of "Nuh-Uh! those battles are exceptional and the average space marine death rate is much lower" is ALSO entirely a fething opinion, because none of those minor skirmishes are depicted in the lore either.
6% deaths per battle was my attempt to be GENEROUS, because I would be willing to bet if we took the death rate for every battle depicted in space marine lore and averaged them together it would be a whole lot worse than 6%.
I mean, we have canonical fluff on Space Marine strike cruisers stating that the mere presence of a strike cruiser appearing in orbit is often enough to cause many rebels to surrender without a shot being fired at all. This suggests that at least a notable number of Space Marine appearances in warfare don't result in any Marine combat at all, let alone casualties. However, such a deployment will take up time in transit- probably measured in weeks- which is time those Marines are not participating in combat elsewhere. We have hints at all these lesser actions fought by Marines in the background of Marneus Calgar:
5th Edition Space Marine codex, pg. 84 wrote:These entries have entire pages dedicated to them in the library sanctum, separated by far shorter passages that describe the fall of countless demagogues, pirates and traitors.
So Marines spend a lot of time wiping out lesser foes that pose little challenge, like pirates.
In terms of medium-scale conflicts- the Black Reach campaign has already been given (6% deaths over the entire war), but we can also take some further, similar examples from the Sentinels of Terra book. In the campaign to repel the Orks form Kalin (a force of sufficient magnitude to reduce an Astra Militarum battlegroup of 100,000 down to 3,000 survivors), the Imperial Fists force of 1 full Company, 3 Scout squads, and 2 Terminator squads suffered total combat deaths of 9 Marines. Whilst the length of this campaign is unknown, other than being less than a year, the war was characterised by constant, high-intensity shock raids by the Marine forces, coupled with a contingent bolstering the defences of the surviving Imperial city. The number of sorties is suggested to be very high- two of the factory complexes were designated Kalin Epsilon and Kalin Zeta, with the last factory named Kalin Kappa. If the complexes were named systematically (likely), that implies that 10 factory complexes were destroyed whilst the capital city was simultaneously defended. For 9 deaths. Similarly, half the Chapter fighting on Drashin that same year suffered ~30 permanent losses* fighting Tyranids and destroying a Norn Queen without support from other assets. These are clearly large battles with very limited Marine losses in the scheme of things.
I am sure that this is not the sum total of background that can be found to support this.
*At least one loss was a Marine too injured to continue frontline duties and reassigned to the Phalanx.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Even if your maths were spot on, we both know that averages don't always align to reality, even in OUR world. It's not hard to think that, while the "average" Marine is unlikely to survive that long, the Chapters are full of "special" Marines, ones who defy all odds and go on to do great things. It makes the Veterans look all so much better if they truly are in that 4% bracket to reach that kind of age.
So basically you are saying that numbers or statistics don't matter to you because of the rule of cool, got it. Because frankly, a survival rate of 4% to vetrancy is much lower than what is depicted in the lore.
The only statement that I was making was that "Hm, space marines taking all of these casualties all of the time would be pretty unrealistic purely from a sustainability perspective." To argue "Nuh-Uh! Totally realistic" and then completely handwave the statistics behind survival rates because "The space marines we see are special and those don't matter" is pretty disingenuous.
Stop defending poor writing.
Veteran Sergeant Tor Garadon is described as having 3 decades of service during the Crusade of Thunder, the series of events which sees him ascend to the rank of Captain. That suggests he is somewhere in the 40-50 year old age range, as a veteran who has passed through the Imperial Fists First Company. Clearly, the Imperial Fists do not have an average age in the hundreds if one of their veteran Sergeants/Captains is less than 50. Lysander is also described as being a full century older than anyone else in the Imperial Fists (bar Dreadnoughts) at the time of his return, discounting the 1,000 years spent in the Warp. Based on what is known about him, he is around 400 years old at most at the time he disappears, and is noted as being one of the Chapter's greatest ever heroes across 9 millenniums of history. Therefore, living into the hundreds clearly seems exceptional for the Imperial Fists, with veterans being several decades old. Cassius is noted as the oldest non-Dreadnought member of the Ultramarines, and is less than 400 at the close of the 41st Millennium- again he is noted as being exceptionally old within that Chapter.
Edit ------------------------------
Found an except in the 6th edition Space Marine codex relevant to the average age of Marines:
6th Edition Space Marine codex, pg. 83 wrote:Each Tactical Squad is led by a grizzled sergeant who has thrived through several decades, or even centuries, of hard and brutal campaigning.
Centuries is noted as being unusual for sergeants, let alone the bulk of the Space Marine forces. Ergo, most Space Marines are only a few decades old, and ~20% at most reach 100 or more (if all senior command staff, every 1st Company veteran and every Sergeant in other companies were over 100- exceedingly unlikely based on this snippet).
Found an except in the 6th edition Space Marine codex relevant to the average age of Marines:
6th Edition Space Marine codex, pg. 83 wrote:Each Tactical Squad is led by a grizzled sergeant who has thrived through several decades, or even centuries, of hard and brutal campaigning.
Centuries is noted as being unusual for sergeants, let alone the bulk of the Space Marine forces. Ergo, most Space Marines are only a few decades old, and ~20% at most reach 100 or more (if all senior command staff, every 1st Company veteran and every Sergeant in other companies were over 100- exceedingly unlikely based on this snippet).
Alright, let's go with that. In order for ~20% of space marines to reach 100 years of veterancy, the chapter as a whole would have to suffer no more than 1.6% deaths per YEAR on average. Applying this to a squad of space marines that constantly fought together, they would only be allowed to suffer 1 death every 6.25 YEARS of fighting on average. Does that sound like the average space marine engagement depicted in the lore to you?
Lowering that to a more reasonable 10% of marines reaching 100 years of veterancy means that the chapter is allowed to suffer a whopping 2.3% deaths per YEAR on average. Do you see the problem yet?
Found an except in the 6th edition Space Marine codex relevant to the average age of Marines:
6th Edition Space Marine codex, pg. 83 wrote:Each Tactical Squad is led by a grizzled sergeant who has thrived through several decades, or even centuries, of hard and brutal campaigning.
Centuries is noted as being unusual for sergeants, let alone the bulk of the Space Marine forces. Ergo, most Space Marines are only a few decades old, and ~20% at most reach 100 or more (if all senior command staff, every 1st Company veteran and every Sergeant in other companies were over 100- exceedingly unlikely based on this snippet).
Alright, let's go with that. In order for ~20% of space marines to reach 100 years of veterancy, the chapter as a whole would have to suffer no more than 1.6% deaths per YEAR on average. Applying this to a squad of space marines that constantly fought together, they would only be allowed to suffer 1 death every 6.25 YEARS of fighting on average. Does that sound like the average space marine engagement depicted in the lore to you?
Lowering that to a more reasonable 10% of marines reaching 100 years of veterancy means that the chapter is allowed to suffer a whopping 2.3% deaths per YEAR on average. Do you see the problem yet?
Well, 20% is an extreme and unlikely upper limit, and even 10% is unlikely based on the figures above. Ironically, based on the age of veteran Sergeant Garadon and the fluff abour Sergeants in general, the amount of Marines in a Chapter is pribably closer to the 4% given earlier, which fitted with a 6% fatality rate in conflicts.
I've literally provided a fluff except in the half of the post you decided to omit mentioning large numbers of Marine engagements that gain little more than a footnote. It is quite clear that these engagements are too boring to routinely write tales about- who wants to hear about random pirate #5326744 being wasted by a passing strike cruiser without a hope of victory? I then listed an except mentioning low casualties from several high-intensity Imperial Fist operations, to go alongside the similar intensity operations during the Black Reach campaign.
Then we have the very high-loss battles, which definitely occur, but are clearly comparitively rare. Some Chapters are essentially wiped out by these events, or reduced to tiny forces that avoid major wars as much as practicable for awhile. Other Chapters have also shown they are able to recover exceptional losses of a hundred Marines (additionally to normal, ongoing attrition in other units) in a single year. So yes, such battles will influence the experience pool of the Chapter, but the strong suggestion is that most Marines are fairly young, and fairly replaceable as a result.
Even with all that taken into account- the more experienced Marines are those that are more likely to survive a battle. If you look at fighter aces in the World Wars, the best pilots would survive far past the odds because they were so good at it, whereas new pilots would often get shot down on their first sorties, at least until one side gained air superiority. The same few pilots kept surviving whilst their fodder would keep getting shot down.
basicly you have to remember if we read about a Battle it's because it's an intreasting one, narratively speaking. and that means the protagionists are challanged. no one wants to read about a fight where the marines aren'ty in any real danger of dying, but chances are that's the bulk of their fights.
Haighus wrote: Well, 20% is an extreme and unlikely upper limit, and even 10% is unlikely based on the figures above. Ironically, based on the age of veteran Sergeant Garadon and the fluff abour Sergeants in general, the amount of Marines in a Chapter is pribably closer to the 4% given earlier, which fitted with a 6% fatality rate in conflicts.
No, you must have misread. Only 4% of marines reaching a veterancy of 100 years corresponds to only a 3% casualty rate for the chapter per YEAR on average. No matter how low you bring that veterancy percentage down, it still corresponds to extremely low casualties on average because 100 years of constant war and constant fighting is a lot of time for someone to get themselves killed.
No matter how you try to justify it the numbers just don't make sense. Either marines actually rarely live past 100 (and by rarely I mean like 0.001%) and the lore is wrong about this being a somewhat common occurrence. Or the lore over-exaggerates marine casualties relative to what they are actually capable of sustaining. You can claim that the lore is somewhat biased in that it tends to focus only on the biggest baddest battles in which the marines may take casualties disproportionate to what they normally receive. But, equally I can point out many examples of marine units taking such casualties in pointless skirmishes or irrelevant battles that should normally be par for the course for them, such as the Dark Angels losing an entire third of their chapter at Vraks, which as another poster helpfully pointed out was kind of a sideshow on the galactic stage.
This is getting silly. Can't you just admit that maybe, just maybe, I might be right? That the writers just try to make things look cool with lots of gratuitous death and don't really understand or care about the statistics and logistics behind how that would affect the average age of the typical space marine or the recruitment rates required for marine units to stay operational?
Do you know how much biomass can be harvested from a single Space marine? Like, if a guardsman is a plate of spare ribs, a space marine is a 2kg marbled ribeye! It's amazing!
Space marines to matter. At least their matter does.
This is getting silly. Can't you just admit that maybe, just maybe, I might be right? That the writers just try to make things look cool with lots of gratuitous death and don't really understand or care about the statistics and logistics behind how that would affect the average age of the typical space marine or the recruitment rates required for marine units to stay operational?
Trying to bring logic to a universe where it does not exist is always frustrating to everyone involved.
Actual answer as to why there's vets centuries old but high attrition rates is probably closer to "wibly-warpy, timey-wimey".
I'd think that either the massive campaigns with high casualty rates are rare, or, given the size of the Legions in the Horus Heresy, the recruitment pool for Astartes is typically rather large, but codex (up until the new fluff) restricts the size of the chapters, thus recovery is relatively quick.
...or the Chapters all draw straws to see who goes to the big deadly campaign. Lamenters usually get the short straw.
Dramatic fiction is nothing to base statistics off of.
95% of the time space marines show up, they break the back of the enemy and then assist in cleaning up the things the rest of imperial forces can't break. A space marine doing things right is not facing an equal force, they're striking at piece meal forces with overwhelming force and rapid movement and bailing before the enemy can respond. Even when doing siege work, they mostly function as an overwhelming assault force while attention is divided.
It's when they go off and do something stupid that they die in mass, because that's interesting. Space marines wipe floor with xenos doesn't make for interesting reading, big overwrought drama does. So the stupid marines show up to secure the artifact of stupid from the chaos tainted xenos race of the planet stupidites with all of three marines and suffer two casualties that are very dramatic because of brotherhood while brother stupidiest the first secures the artifact and returns to tell the tale of his brothers. Stinger, one of the brothers has turned to the dark powers of stupid!
If you can't tell, not a huge fan of space marine fiction, but even I can tell you it's nothing to base stats off of.
I think it's because of the fact that the Imperium loves to play up the victories of the Adeptus Astartes to boost morale and demonstrate their power. I like to think that the vast majority of conflict in Warhammer 40,000 is Imperial Guard/PDF regiments putting down Ork incursions, rebellions and, increasingly, Chaos uprisings without any Astartes presence whatsoever. However, there is no propaganda value in recording and playing up the victory of the Generian XVIth Light Rifles over an armed band of irate workers in some backwater industrial world.
They are a special forces outfit and while on a grander scale their influence in the greater Imperial warmachine is likely negligible their intervention has won countless important battles.
I don’t know that they do play up the Astartes all that much.
Most Imperial Citizens are likely to regard them as myths. Literal avenging angels.
The bulk of the laurels, quite rightly, go to the Astra Militarum. Each and everyone a holy martyr looking to happen. They’re you, they’re me, they’re the Every Man. A plucky Imperial Citizen, Armed with their trusty Lasgun. Putting their life on the line against a galaxy of horrors.
To purely promote the Astartes in the way you suggest (and I’m not seeking to call you out or anything) massively undermines that. It makes the average Imperial Citizen feel useless, and impotent.
From a propaganda point of view, that’s absolutely no good. You need The Plebs to feel that with a blessed las weapon in their hands, they’re a hard counter to the very worst the galaxy can throw at them. Anything less is to invite despair, and from despair, comes outright defeat.
Again, not attacking you personally. Always like to make such things clear, because tone of voice doesn’t work online
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of what a single Astartes can do? I’ll refer you to the following scene from the frankly excellent Kingsman movie.
Warning. It is NOT safe for work. It’s very violent, and fairly graphic. This is an example of what a highly trained human can achieve. You add the post human status, and power armour on top? The kill ratio really makes sense!
Haighus wrote: Well, 20% is an extreme and unlikely upper limit, and even 10% is unlikely based on the figures above. Ironically, based on the age of veteran Sergeant Garadon and the fluff abour Sergeants in general, the amount of Marines in a Chapter is pribably closer to the 4% given earlier, which fitted with a 6% fatality rate in conflicts.
No, you must have misread. Only 4% of marines reaching a veterancy of 100 years corresponds to only a 3% casualty rate for the chapter per YEAR on average. No matter how low you bring that veterancy percentage down, it still corresponds to extremely low casualties on average because 100 years of constant war and constant fighting is a lot of time for someone to get themselves killed.
No matter how you try to justify it the numbers just don't make sense. Either marines actually rarely live past 100 (and by rarely I mean like 0.001%) and the lore is wrong about this being a somewhat common occurrence. Or the lore over-exaggerates marine casualties relative to what they are actually capable of sustaining. You can claim that the lore is somewhat biased in that it tends to focus only on the biggest baddest battles in which the marines may take casualties disproportionate to what they normally receive. But, equally I can point out many examples of marine units taking such casualties in pointless skirmishes or irrelevant battles that should normally be par for the course for them, such as the Dark Angels losing an entire third of their chapter at Vraks, which as another poster helpfully pointed out was kind of a sideshow on the galactic stage.
This is getting silly. Can't you just admit that maybe, just maybe, I might be right? That the writers just try to make things look cool with lots of gratuitous death and don't really understand or care about the statistics and logistics behind how that would affect the average age of the typical space marine or the recruitment rates required for marine units to stay operational?
That is fair enough, I did misread. So it means the numbers of centenarians for a Chapter active in frequent major wars should be fairly low. I still think you are assuming that death rate is uniformly distributed across all Marines fighting in a conflict, and not concentrated in the newest, least experienced Marines. I agree that the writers like to show big battles, but a Chapter typically only has one of these every couple of decades at most looking at most Chapter timelines. The most active Chapters (re: GW favourites) at times approach 1 major war a year, but then they are also frequently the Chapters with noted high recruitment rates (like Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines).
Vraks might have been relatively unimportant in terms of strategic impact, but it was huge in terms of the size of the conflict, and absolutely would count as a major battle for the Dark Angels- millions of Guardsmen were deployed to Vraks, and it dwarfs every other conflict mentioned so far. Although, as also noted, Vraks does seem to be a bit of a canon-conflict in that it is basically ignored by all the other Dark Angels fluff. Vraks was definitely not a sideshow skirmish, even if it was a relatively pointless battle.
There is literal background information stating that often Marine strike cruisers enter a system, and the rebellion surrenders without any combat at all. Often. That is the sort of sideshow skirmish I am referring to- no Marine combat at all, yet still having to travel to a system.
Battlefleet Gothic Armada: Imperial Ships wrote:Often the arrival of a Space Marine strike cruiser is enough to quell a rebellious system. The Space Marines are quick to act if their enemies’ surrender is not immediately forthcoming.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I
In terms of what a single Astartes can do? I’ll refer you to the following scene from the frankly excellent Kingsman movie.
Warning. It is NOT safe for work. It’s very violent, and fairly graphic. This is an example of what a highly trained human can achieve. You add the post human status, and power armour on top? The kill ratio really makes sense!
Spoiler:
Hrm, to be fair, this is a choreographed scene, where the dude is fighting basically one person at a time, many of the people he engages aren't attempting to fight him or are even aware of his presence, etc ad nauseum. The dude has a chair broken in his face and doesn't even have a scratch to show for it and hops up immediately to engage another person without pause (despite having suffered a major blunt force impact to the head) and the guy who hit him with a chair doesn't bother to follow up despite having knocked him on his belly (that would be game over in any real fight). There's very little about that scene which would transfer to any sort of actual combat. Weight of numbers usually tells rather quickly, if for no other reason than only one good blow needs to get through and only so many angles of attack can be covered or tracked, or in the case of hand to hand combat, grappling comes into play and limbs get held and bodies pressed and it gets very ugly very quickly. One doesn't need to land an immediately lethal blow to end or decide a fight, if an elbow or kneecap gets shattered, a concussive head blow inflicted, a hand crushed, etc, then the fight is going to be over.
There's a reason we don't see instances like this in real life, and why stories of great warriors who have slay many opponents typically do so in sequence (e.g. Achilles fights and slays Hector, Penthesilea, and Memnon at different times), not all at once. Where we see exceptions are usually instances where one side is caught unawares, are physically unable to hurt something, or are channeled such that the numbers cannot bring their weight to bear.
In my own experience with combatives, particularly HEMA, fighting multiple opponents is a bad time, even if there's a massive skill and physical prowess difference involved if the attackers are not deterred or overwhelmingly intimidated. If we bring firearms into play, volume of fire is the single largest determinant of casualties in infantry engagements and artillery the greatest generator of casualties in warfare in general (you pin the enemy in place and then obliterate the real estate they occupy with explosives).
And yes, power armor and genetically enhanced bodies are impressive, but so are tanks and warships and aircraft, and they can be brought down by stupidly simple/primitive/numerous things as well if presented with the opportunity.
I'm a bit late to this thread, and will make the same point as most everyone else, but...
In the second world war, 16 million Americans served in the arms forces. Of them, 2 million served in the European theater, alongside vast volumes of allied armies. These forces won the war.
But, when they make Captain America, the movie it's about Captain America. We watch him beating up Hydra agents, who seem to be a wing of the German military, with his tiny team of highly trained specialists, doing incredible deeds and having adventures no real soldier could possibly match. Along the way, we see their actions turn the tide of the war, stopping villains who would have won the war for the German side if they hadn't been stopped. But, they don't stop the movie too often to be like "But, Captain America doesn't really matter, because he's just one guy, and there's millions of people fighting here."
This is how Space Marines are; they're fighting the super critical battles, and they're serving as the colorful superheroes of the setting. They're having larger than life adventures and doing important deeds, facing the most dire threats that only they can face. But, just like Captain America, they can't go fight the entire enemy army. Superpowers and toughness can't compensate for lack of numbers. That falls to the common men and women of the Astra Militarum.
Hard to swallow pills: there aren't enough marines to fight the super critical battles. This concept of "smashing command" is insane. There are more enemy commanders than there are marine chapters to do the smashing. The scale is so off.
Martel732 wrote: Hard to swallow pills: there aren't enough marines to fight the super critical battles. This concept of "smashing command" is insane. There are more enemy commanders than there are marine chapters to do the smashing. The scale is so off.
The scale is pretty bad, but if you kill the best commanders and only the more mediocre ones are left, it will be easier for the guard to crush the enemy army.
Martel732 wrote: Hard to swallow pills: there aren't enough marines to fight the super critical battles. This concept of "smashing command" is insane. There are more enemy commanders than there are marine chapters to do the smashing. The scale is so off.
The scale is pretty bad, but if you kill the best commanders and only the more mediocre ones are left, it will be easier for the guard to crush the enemy army.
And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.
Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?
Martel732 wrote: Hard to swallow pills: there aren't enough marines to fight the super critical battles. This concept of "smashing command" is insane. There are more enemy commanders than there are marine chapters to do the smashing. The scale is so off.
The scale is pretty bad, but if you kill the best commanders and only the more mediocre ones are left, it will be easier for the guard to crush the enemy army.
That's not the way it works. You are just as likely to end up promoting a colonel better than the general you just killed. All it takes is a few bodyguards with plasma and you just came out on the wrong end of the deal. God forbid they shoot down some of your stormravens on the approach. Or smoke some drop pods en route. Marines just aren't worth the work that goes into making them. Higher end energy weapons are everywhere and smoke them easily. They are knights in a world of crossbows. Maybe that's the point, but it sure doesn't seem like it. It seems like GW is playing it straight now, which is mind boggling considering their on-board representation.
How does the Imperium even know where the "best" commanders would be anyway? Imperium can't find its ass with both hands.
Martel732 wrote: Hard to swallow pills: there aren't enough marines to fight the super critical battles. This concept of "smashing command" is insane. There are more enemy commanders than there are marine chapters to do the smashing. The scale is so off.
The scale is pretty bad, but if you kill the best commanders and only the more mediocre ones are left, it will be easier for the guard to crush the enemy army.
That's not the way it works. You are just as likely to end up promoting a colonel better than the general you just killed. All it takes is a few bodyguards with plasma and you just came out on the wrong end of the deal. God forbid they shoot down some of your stormravens on the approach. Or smoke some drop pods en route. Marines just aren't worth the work that goes into making them. Higher end energy weapons are everywhere and smoke them easily. They are knights in a world of crossbows. Maybe that's the point, but it sure doesn't seem like it. It seems like GW is playing it straight now, which is mind boggling considering their on-board representation.
How does the Imperium even know where the "best" commanders would be anyway? Imperium can't find its ass with both hands.
Except the bodyguards aren't going to have plasma seeing how rare it is and are dead anyway. And you can't just shoot down the drop pods.
Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
Space Marines matter as much as the Writter wants them to matter.
In some cases 10 space marines are enough to destroy a full invasion as others have pointed out, Avenger-style. They do all the good thing and destroy the big bad boys that like Dune are inmune to all kind of damage because they have super-special anti deathstrike missile shields that can be penetrated by knives.
In another 100 marines die to a couple of missiles.
I wasn't even going to go there. But yes, there's no reason it couldn't happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: Space Marines matter as much as the Writter wants then to matter.
In some cases 10 space marines are enough to destroy a full invasion as others have pointed out, Avenger-style. They do all the good thing and destroy the big bad boys that like Dune are inmune to all kind of damage because they have super-special anti deathstrike missile shields that can be penetrated by knives.
In another 100 marines die to a couple of missiles.
This is the truest and yet least satisfying answer. Table top makes it clear they don't matter at all in that paradigm.
Most Imperial Citizens are likely to regard them as myths. Literal avenging angels.
The bulk of the laurels, quite rightly, go to the Astra Militarum. Each and everyone a holy martyr looking to happen. They’re you, they’re me, they’re the Every Man. A plucky Imperial Citizen, Armed with their trusty Lasgun. Putting their life on the line against a galaxy of horrors.
To purely promote the Astartes in the way you suggest (and I’m not seeking to call you out or anything) massively undermines that. It makes the average Imperial Citizen feel useless, and impotent.
From a propaganda point of view, that’s absolutely no good. You need The Plebs to feel that with a blessed las weapon in their hands, they’re a hard counter to the very worst the galaxy can throw at them. Anything less is to invite despair, and from despair, comes outright defeat.
Again, not attacking you personally. Always like to make such things clear, because tone of voice doesn’t work online
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of what a single Astartes can do? I’ll refer you to the following scene from the frankly excellent Kingsman movie.
Warning. It is NOT safe for work. It’s very violent, and fairly graphic. This is an example of what a highly trained human can achieve. You add the post human status, and power armour on top? The kill ratio really makes sense!
Spoiler:
To clarify what I meant I believe that the Imperium emphasizes the victories and accomplishments of the Adeptus Astartes, not to the exclusion of the Imperial Guard, but moreso in a way that exaggerates their overall contribution to the Imperial war effort. The Imperium will still talk about heroes and successful regiments of the Imperial Guard but will also likely talk highly about the heroics of a company of, say, Ultramarines in that particular warzone even if they were one hundred soldiers among a billion. This is because the nigh-invincibility and combat prowess of the Ultramarines plays more into the Imperium's message about the inevitability of Imperial victory moreso than the heavy casualties sustained by the guard.
Then again, if the Regiment Standard is anything to go by, Imperial propaganda will also say the same about guardsmen. So, eh, it's a weak justification for why the best selling faction in 40k gets all the attention both in-universe and out while having relatively insignificant numbers.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.
as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.
yeah sure, a fortified position prepped for Marines is gonna be rough on them. but chances are the first time you know about Marines being in the area to attack you, a terminator is punching through your chest.
Also remember real life wou;dn't be like 40k where 1 dice roll thats good eneugh can do anything, given how difficult it is to hurt a marine with a lasgun, that would translate in the real world into every guardsman having to poour on the fire until eventually after dozens if not hundres of shots they luck out and land a blow in a weak spot of the armor that has been further weakened.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.
as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.
yeah sure, a fortified position prepped for Marines is gonna be rough on them. but chances are the first time you know about Marines being in the area to attack you, a terminator is punching through your chest.
Also remember real life wou;dn't be like 40k where 1 dice roll thats good eneugh can do anything, given how difficult it is to hurt a marine with a lasgun, that would translate in the real world into every guardsman having to poour on the fire until eventually after dozens if not hundres of shots they luck out and land a blow in a weak spot of the armor that has been further weakened.
With forgeworlds, nothing would be rare. They don't understand the implications of their own setting.
BrianDavion wrote: no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.
You are right in saying that plasma weapons are supposed to be rare. Few regiments of the Imperial Guard have access to those, but anti-tank and anti-armor weapons are plenty. Plasma weapons are far from being the only one. A hot-shot lasgun is designed to pierce power armors. Meltagun aren't rare and can easily kill a Space Marine no matter what type of armor he has. Grenade launchers with krak grenades can certainly damage a power armor and kill Space Marines since they are, afterall, bolters on steroids. Heavy bolters are standard anti-infantry weapons in the Guard so are autocannons. A platoon of guardsmen or their equivalent possess about a dozen weapons capable of killing a Space Marines. Xenos are similarly well equipped to kill Space Marine when they aren't simply even more powerful in one on one situation.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.
as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.
yeah sure, a fortified position prepped for Marines is gonna be rough on them. but chances are the first time you know about Marines being in the area to attack you, a terminator is punching through your chest.
Also remember real life wou;dn't be like 40k where 1 dice roll thats good eneugh can do anything, given how difficult it is to hurt a marine with a lasgun, that would translate in the real world into every guardsman having to poour on the fire until eventually after dozens if not hundres of shots they luck out and land a blow in a weak spot of the armor that has been further weakened.
With forgeworlds, nothing would be rare. They don't understand the implications of their own setting.
Plasma would not be rare, even if they claim it.
only if you assume those foge worlds produce plasma guns in sufficant quantities to equip every man with them.
Which they clearly don't
Now you're just screaming "my head canon trumps your canon" sorry Marty but thats not gonna fly.
BrianDavion wrote: as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.
Probably because we most commonly see drop pods used against traitor Imperial units, orks, etc, that have WWII-era AA guns manually aimed by a human gunner looking down an optical sight. In that case yes, shooting down a drop pod is going to be nearly impossible because the guns don't have the engagement envelope to fire effectively until the last second, and an incoming pod is still going to be moving fast enough to make it difficult to put enough hits on it to score a kill before it reaches the target. But contrast that with, say, a Tau world where the AA units are now long-range SAM batteries networked into an automated system capable of instantly recognizing a target and directing fire against it from whatever battery is in position to take the shot. Drop into that target and you're talking about sacrificing multiple chapters in a saturation attack intended to exhaust the defender's entire supply of missiles and hope that a few pods survive to reach the surface.
Space Marine Deathstorm Drop Pods serve the dual purpose of acting as additional targets to draw fire from the real drop pods, and to clear the landing area.
Galas wrote: Space Marines matter as much as the Writter wants them to matter.
In some cases 10 space marines are enough to destroy a full invasion as others have pointed out, Avenger-style. They do all the good thing and destroy the big bad boys that like Dune are inmune to all kind of damage because they have super-special anti deathstrike missile shields that can be penetrated by knives.
In another 100 marines die to a couple of missiles.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is basically it. 40k fiction has little consistency, and little basis in any sort of reality. It's a fantasy world with a scifi skin, and breaks down rapidly once any sort of realistic lens in applied.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
Even if it's canon it's not. Riiiiight.
There are worlds building things for the entire galaxy and the things in question are a lost art.
When it comes to Plasma guns, I've always assumed that its not just the plasma gun that is difficult to make, its the precision equipment required to manufacture all of its various components.. This holds true for a lot of modern equipment even the US military uses. Once a factory and all its manufacturing equipment has been shut down and destroyed, its often difficult to build new parts to repair that old weapon even if its technically older more primitive tech.
It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.
Many Hive Worlds can manufacture their own Las Weapons. Some can even do Bolters.
But Plasma? Not so much. Those, typically, seem to come from Forgeworlds. There are exceptions, such as House Van Saar, but they appear to be very uncommon.
I always viewed plasma guns as "comparatively rare" as in you don't see entire Imperial Guard regiments outfitted with them. But an inquisitor, space marine, or other such notables wouldn't have trouble getting their hands on one if they really wanted to because they are mass produced from forge worlds, even into the 40th millenium.
There are imperial guard regiments who do have plasma gunners in their line squads, and the skitarii units from Rhyza run almost exclusively plasma equipped IIRC.
To say that Space Marines would run into an entire enemy army equipped with plasma guns is not accurate to the setting, but neither is saying that plasma is a rare "one in a million" weapon that the space marines almost never encounter. Additionally as another poster pointed out, a heavy bolter is perfectly capable of killing a space marine and it is a standard heavy weapon in most guard and traitor guard regiments.
Formosa wrote: It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.
Exactly. Even a "rare" weapon is going to be found in mass numbers just because of the sheer size of the 40k universe. Plasma guns are only "rare" in the sense that not every squad that wants one necessarily gets one, they aren't priceless relics that most people have never even heard of.
And even then said plasma guns are often handed to special weapon squads. Who tend to hang around behind the lines to react to threats, lowering the risk of these rare and valuable weapons being wasted or lost. Even if a regiment has a hundred plasma guns in their armory that's still like a 1 to 50 ratio. Same goes for heavy weapon squads, usually having one or two lurking around here or there rather than the dozen squads we see in game.
As people have said before, 40K has a rather inconsistent scale in the fluff. But that does usually mean that the 10-50 space marines are unlikely to come across more than a handful. And they are meant to be scalpels, able to pick out that one tosser with a glowey gun and blow his brains out with their much lauded marksmenship.
But again, game mechanics vs fluff.
Space marines would be rather terrifying in a lot of real life scenarios.
Formosa wrote: It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.
Exactly. Even a "rare" weapon is going to be found in mass numbers just because of the sheer size of the 40k universe. Plasma guns are only "rare" in the sense that not every squad that wants one necessarily gets one, they aren't priceless relics that most people have never even heard of.
and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?
Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc
Formosa wrote: It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.
Exactly. Even a "rare" weapon is going to be found in mass numbers just because of the sheer size of the 40k universe. Plasma guns are only "rare" in the sense that not every squad that wants one necessarily gets one, they aren't priceless relics that most people have never even heard of.
and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?
Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc
Because the Dark Mech certainly doesn't exist, nor do highly competent and well-trained heretics.
BrianDavion wrote: and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?
Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc
Again, plasma guns are not exceptional. They're standard-issue equipment that is even given to DKoK siege regiments fighting grinding wars of attrition. They are "rare" in the sense that a regiment might want one plasma gun per squad but only get one per five squads and have to settle for equipping the other four with melta guns or krak grenades or whatever, but that's all. Maybe the worst equipped PDF fodder might not have them at all, but is "space marines are great at killing low-tier PDF fodder" really a compelling defense of their existence? Any halfway competent army can deal with that kind of enemy, you don't need space marines for that.
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cody.d. wrote: And they are meant to be scalpels, able to pick out that one tosser with a glowey gun and blow his brains out with their much lauded marksmenship.
It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.
BrianDavion wrote: and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?
Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc
Again, plasma guns are not exceptional. They're standard-issue equipment that is even given to DKoK siege regiments fighting grinding wars of attrition. They are "rare" in the sense that a regiment might want one plasma gun per squad but only get one per five squads and have to settle for equipping the other four with melta guns or krak grenades or whatever, but that's all. Maybe the worst equipped PDF fodder might not have them at all, but is "space marines are great at killing low-tier PDF fodder" really a compelling defense of their existence? Any halfway competent army can deal with that kind of enemy, you don't need space marines for that.
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cody.d. wrote: And they are meant to be scalpels, able to pick out that one tosser with a glowey gun and blow his brains out with their much lauded marksmenship.
It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.
My point is that Martell's arguement that Plasma is everywhere is well.. bogus. it's not everywhere, eys the rules say a squad can have 1 or two, but how many of them DO? as opposed to having I dunno flamers?
especially as Plasma guns are really specialist weapons aimed at cracking heavy infantry. which... isn't the most common thing in the world.
It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.
But how many situations can you imagine the several thousand strong force being able to aim more than a handful of plasmaguns at the 20 man squad of marines? And if there was such a concentration of marine killing weapons in an area I doubt the marines who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field. Additionally the super humans that can outsprint any human alive would likely make a point of moving to their objective before said anti-marine weapons can redeploy.
The strength of marines is their ability to apply overwhelming pressure to a precise area, more force than any defender could hope to survive. They don't need to kill every guardsmen, just the couple that are standing near the door they want to go through for whatever shield controls or other macguffin the story requires.
BrianDavion wrote: My point is that Martell's arguement that Plasma is everywhere is well.. bogus. it's not everywhere, eys the rules say a squad can have 1 or two, but how many of them DO? as opposed to having I dunno flamers?
especially as Plasma guns are really specialist weapons aimed at cracking heavy infantry. which... isn't the most common thing in the world.
It's only bogus if you insist on reading it as literally every single person has a plasma gun. Plasma is absolutely "everywhere" in the sense that it's a common weapon, and a space marine going up against an imperial guard force is going to be shot at with plasma guns. And krak missiles, lascannons, battle cannons, melta guns, etc, all of which are capable of killing a space marine.
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cody.d. wrote: But how many situations can you imagine the several thousand strong force being able to aim more than a handful of plasmaguns at the 20 man squad of marines?
Plenty. They might not be able to aim all at once but they're going to keep coming until the space marines are dead. Kill the first platoon and another one attacks to take its place. Eventually the plasma gunners are going to get lucky, and even if the entire force of thousands of guardsmen is wiped out to kill a single space marine the space marines have suffered a catastrophic defeat.
And if there was such a concentration of marine killing weapons in an area I doubt the marines who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field.
And if there was such a concentration of space marines I doubt the guardsmen who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field, instead of calling in an artillery strike to kill all of the space marines.
Additionally the super humans that can outsprint any human alive would likely make a point of moving to their objective before said anti-marine weapons can redeploy.
Only on the scale of a 40k battlefield, where the models are 28mm but the ranges are more like 1mm scale. In reality a battle would look more like playing a game of 40k on an entire football field, with armies deployed on opposite goal lines and all weapons having at least 25 yards of range (and heavy weapons potentially shooting the entire length of the field). Even moving at significantly more than the 6" movement speed of a normal human the space marines are going to be sitting in the kill zone for turn after turn after turn after turn.
The strength of marines is their ability to apply overwhelming pressure to a precise area, more force than any defender could hope to survive. They don't need to kill every guardsmen, just the couple that are standing near the door they want to go through for whatever shield controls or other macguffin the story requires.
But if all you need to do is kill a couple of guardsmen standing near a door then why not send a squad of storm troopers? They'll do the job just as well, and without the obscene cost of a space marine.
It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.
But how many situations can you imagine the several thousand strong force being able to aim more than a handful of plasmaguns at the 20 man squad of marines? And if there was such a concentration of marine killing weapons in an area I doubt the marines who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field. Additionally the super humans that can outsprint any human alive would likely make a point of moving to their objective before said anti-marine weapons can redeploy.
The biggest problem usually is that the 8ft tall dudes that weigh as much as cars, running around painted in bright primary colors tend to broadcast their presence in a rather unsubtle manner and make excellent targets, if we're talking questions of tactical astuteness
There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.
Vaktathi wrote: There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.
This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.
Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
If you read pretty much any novel involving marines at all there are very rarely pitched battles that would allow for the use of artillery or the application of an armies full firepower. It's just not what they are designed for. And any job that the Tempustus could do can indeed be done more effectively by space marines. But they do make a good budget alternative.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).
If you read pretty much any novel involving marines at all there are very rarely pitched battles that would allow for the use of artillery or the application of an armies full firepower. It's just not what they are designed for. And any job that the Tempustus could do can indeed be done more effectively by space marines. But they do make a good budget alternative.
They're portrayed doing this sort of thing all the time.There were/are entire legions/chapters dedicated to exactly these kinds of things (I play one, Iron Warriors ). It's part of the problem with their background, because half the SM background is doing things where stuff like artillery, orbital weaponry, air support, or armored units would be (and are) brought to bear. Pitched battles, sieges, direct planetary assaults, extended urban warfare, etc. One can open just about any Codex and see examples of Marines engaging in such things, particularly where it's just one Chapter going off and fighting some sort of stupidly large war. Brothers of the Snake, Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun, the Word Bearers Omnibus, etc all have examples of this sort of thing, as do the conflicts on many worlds such a Armageddon, Vraks, Cadia, Fenris, etc.
Vaktathi wrote: There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.
This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.
Aye, that's where the issue is, the numbers are just way too small to be relevant on the galactic scale 40k plays at.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).
the food issue is way less a one then you might think. One of the Space Marines implants allow them to digest and get nutrition from things that would be toxic or even indigestiable to a normal human. so foraging for food is a LOT easier for Marines then Guardsmen and I suspect deployed Marines take advantage of that. Food wise it's likely the guard has a more complex supply train that way. On a random world the guard may need to ship in all their food (unless of course it's a human world already and supply train issues aren't a factor for IoM units period) they likely don't have the luxery of finding out whats ediable or not. (seriously it'd be a nightmare) Space Marines however have faaaar less an issue. I'm sure there are some plants that would make even a space marine sick, but I bet those are far and few inbetween
BrianDavion wrote: the food issue is way less a one then you might think. One of the Space Marines implants allow them to digest and get nutrition from things that would be toxic or even indigestiable to a normal human. so foraging for food is a LOT easier for Marines then Guardsmen and I suspect deployed Marines take advantage of that. Food wise it's likely the guard has a more complex supply train that way. On a random world the guard may need to ship in all their food (unless of course it's a human world already and supply train issues aren't a factor for IoM units period) they likely don't have the luxery of finding out whats ediable or not. (seriously it'd be a nightmare) Space Marines however have faaaar less an issue. I'm sure there are some plants that would make even a space marine sick, but I bet those are far and few inbetween
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It's true that Marines can pretty much eat anything, but that doesn't mean it will meet their dietary requirements. An average 18-28 years old male soldier infantryman will require a diet 4000 to 5000 calories per day or their physical health will decline very quickly. They will require these calories to be part of a balanced diet rich in fibers, protein and a wide variety of vitamins or their health a fighting capacity will quickly drop. A Space Marine might be able to eat anything, but that anything might not be what he needs to remain fully operational. Space Marines are complex biological machines that require regular medical checkup to make sure they function correctly without going crazy on the combat drugs their system generates or due to hormonal unbalance. Bolters are also ammunition intensive. A las pack can be recharged by exposure to the sun and contains up to 200 shots while a Bolter clip contains 20 to 30 rounds. Power Armors are sophisticated system that require high level of skills to repair and maintain while Guards have armor so common and cheap, they can basically be scavanged from the battlefield (and frequently are). All in all, Space Marines aren't exactly all that autonomous or cheap to deploy, but they don't have to pass through a lot of red tape before they do.
Peregrine wrote: This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.
Part of a space marine's deal is how quickly it can deploy, deliver devastating precision attacks and then be withdrawn to redeploy on its next mission. I think an attack helicopter might be a better comparison, especially as tanks are vulnerable to infantry at close quarters, which space marines obviously are not.
nareik wrote: Part of a space marine's deal is how quickly it can deploy, deliver devastating precision attacks and then be withdrawn to redeploy on its next mission. I think an attack helicopter might be a better comparison, especially as tanks are vulnerable to infantry at close quarters, which space marines obviously are not.
Agreed. And a single attack helicopter can definitely change the course of a war if deployed in the right spot, figuratively speaking. Also, I don't imagine marines take up that much more logistical resources comparatively to Imperial Guard. I think a good estimate for a space marine chapter is what... 5-10 times what an average Imperial Guard Regiment requires to maintain itself? That isn't bad for what you are getting. Basically the special forces of special forces.
Don't get me wrong, I do think it is kind of silly how few space marines there are. But I think a bigger problem about their portrayal is their casualty rate and how that meshes with what we are told about their average age/experience, and about how difficult the recruitment process is.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
Even if it's canon it's not. Riiiiight.
There are worlds building things for the entire galaxy and the things in question are a lost art.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
Even if it's canon it's not. Riiiiight.
There are worlds building things for the entire galaxy and the things in question are a lost art.
If canon is sufficiently absurd, its nothing.
You can't say that the canon isn't the canon just because you find it absurd. I find Necrons origins silly but you don't see me claiming they aren't in the background.
To be honest one can't compare modern 1k marine chapters with the Legions of old.
It was more coherent to have legions like Iron Warriors made for Attrition and Trench Warfare when you had hundreds of thousands of them. And is not like they fought alone, they always had millions of normal humans behind. Thats why nobody wanted to fight alongside the iron warriors.
Peregrine wrote: This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.
Part of a space marine's deal is how quickly it can deploy, deliver devastating precision attacks and then be withdrawn to redeploy on its next mission. I think an attack helicopter might be a better comparison, especially as tanks are vulnerable to infantry at close quarters, which space marines obviously are not.
The point stands though. An attack helicopter is a useful tool, but if there was only one attack helicopter in the entire world it would not be a relevant factor in winning a WWII-scale war, and it would be utter lunacy to spend the entire US military budget to build it.
Xenomancers wrote: This entire useless thread of marine hate and defense against it is useless.
Marines are awesome. Yes - they actually are awesome. That is why they matter.
Eh... Opinion is opinion.
I find that it's best to sit at one of the two extremes-either be so balls-to-the-wall badass and awesome that it's ludicrous (Imperial Knights, for example) or be mundane (Guardsmen going up against the horrors of the 41st millennium).
Marines occupy that middle ground where they're badass enough to not be commended on bravery or anything like that, but at the same time aren't so awesome because they're really just big mutants with nice armor and guns.
Xenomancers wrote: This entire useless thread of marine hate and defense against it is useless.
Marines are awesome. Yes - they actually are awesome. That is why they matter.
Eh... Opinion is opinion.
I find that it's best to sit at one of the two extremes-either be so balls-to-the-wall badass and awesome that it's ludicrous (Imperial Knights, for example) or be mundane (Guardsmen going up against the horrors of the 41st millennium).
Marines occupy that middle ground where they're badass enough to not be commended on bravery or anything like that, but at the same time aren't so awesome because they're really just big mutants with nice armor and guns.
The middleground is only in your mind. Countless stories of marines destroying titans with wit an skill beit through sabotage or bringing their own super weapons to bear. It's not an opinion really. In this universe - marines are awesome. They usually win. Plus it's literally stated all over the lore than the imperium of man would fall apart without the space marines. That really should answer the question.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).
the food issue is way less a one then you might think. One of the Space Marines implants allow them to digest and get nutrition from things that would be toxic or even indigestiable to a normal human. so foraging for food is a LOT easier for Marines then Guardsmen and I suspect deployed Marines take advantage of that. Food wise it's likely the guard has a more complex supply train that way. On a random world the guard may need to ship in all their food (unless of course it's a human world already and supply train issues aren't a factor for IoM units period) they likely don't have the luxery of finding out whats ediable or not. (seriously it'd be a nightmare) Space Marines however have faaaar less an issue. I'm sure there are some plants that would make even a space marine sick, but I bet those are far and few inbetween
To an extent sure and thats definitely a point in their favor sometimes, but if there's nothing but mud or airless rock or empty desert or bubbling acid lakes or deserted ghost tombs and whatnot, that's going to be a major supply issue moreso than it would be for normal humans.
Likewise they need more food and more time to actually eat all that than a normal human would, they'd need 20k cals just to not starve, 30 or 40 or more through combat. If they came across twenty packages of double stuff oreos thats enough for one Space Marine who'd have to spend time scarfing if all down himself, but that'd give enough calories for a platoon of normal humans, and scavenging that many calories from non-optimal food sources would be an issue.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).
the food issue is way less a one then you might think. One of the Space Marines implants allow them to digest and get nutrition from things that would be toxic or even indigestiable to a normal human. so foraging for food is a LOT easier for Marines then Guardsmen and I suspect deployed Marines take advantage of that. Food wise it's likely the guard has a more complex supply train that way. On a random world the guard may need to ship in all their food (unless of course it's a human world already and supply train issues aren't a factor for IoM units period) they likely don't have the luxery of finding out whats ediable or not. (seriously it'd be a nightmare) Space Marines however have faaaar less an issue. I'm sure there are some plants that would make even a space marine sick, but I bet those are far and few inbetween
To an extent sure and thats definitely a point in their favor sometimes, but if there's nothing but mud or airless rock or empty desert or bubbling acid lakes or deserted ghost tombs and whatnot, that's going to be a major supply issue moreso than it would be for normal humans.
Likewise they need more food and more time to actually eat all that than a normal human would, they'd need 20k cals just to not starve, 30 or 40 or more through combat. If they came across twenty packages of double stuff oreos thats enough for one Space Marine who'd have to spend time scarfing if all down himself, but that'd give enough calories for a platoon of normal humans, and scavenging that many calories from non-optimal food sources would be an issue.
Not really an issue. If they are killing foes they can always eat them.
Xenomancers wrote: This entire useless thread of marine hate and defense against it is useless.
Marines are awesome. Yes - they actually are awesome. That is why they matter.
Eh... Opinion is opinion.
I find that it's best to sit at one of the two extremes-either be so balls-to-the-wall badass and awesome that it's ludicrous (Imperial Knights, for example) or be mundane (Guardsmen going up against the horrors of the 41st millennium).
Marines occupy that middle ground where they're badass enough to not be commended on bravery or anything like that, but at the same time aren't so awesome because they're really just big mutants with nice armor and guns.
The middleground is only in your mind. Countless stories of marines destroying titans with wit an skill beit through sabotage or bringing their own super weapons to bear. It's not an opinion really. In this universe - marines are awesome. They usually win. Plus it's literally stated all over the lore than the imperium of man would fall apart without the space marines. That really should answer the question.
Except it wouldn't.
Or rather, it wouldn't have lasted 10k years after the civil war for different reasons.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
Even if it's canon it's not. Riiiiight.
There are worlds building things for the entire galaxy and the things in question are a lost art.
If canon is sufficiently absurd, its nothing.
You can't say that the canon isn't the canon just because you find it absurd. I find Necrons origins silly but you don't see me claiming they aren't in the background.
It's also retconned so many times as to be absurd.
Martel732 wrote: Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.
Even if it's canon it's not. Riiiiight.
There are worlds building things for the entire galaxy and the things in question are a lost art.
If canon is sufficiently absurd, its nothing.
You can't say that the canon isn't the canon just because you find it absurd. I find Necrons origins silly but you don't see me claiming they aren't in the background.
It's also retconned so many times as to be absurd.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).
the food issue is way less a one then you might think. One of the Space Marines implants allow them to digest and get nutrition from things that would be toxic or even indigestiable to a normal human. so foraging for food is a LOT easier for Marines then Guardsmen and I suspect deployed Marines take advantage of that. Food wise it's likely the guard has a more complex supply train that way. On a random world the guard may need to ship in all their food (unless of course it's a human world already and supply train issues aren't a factor for IoM units period) they likely don't have the luxery of finding out whats ediable or not. (seriously it'd be a nightmare) Space Marines however have faaaar less an issue. I'm sure there are some plants that would make even a space marine sick, but I bet those are far and few inbetween
To an extent sure and thats definitely a point in their favor sometimes, but if there's nothing but mud or airless rock or empty desert or bubbling acid lakes or deserted ghost tombs and whatnot, that's going to be a major supply issue moreso than it would be for normal humans.
Likewise they need more food and more time to actually eat all that than a normal human would, they'd need 20k cals just to not starve, 30 or 40 or more through combat. If they came across twenty packages of double stuff oreos thats enough for one Space Marine who'd have to spend time scarfing if all down himself, but that'd give enough calories for a platoon of normal humans, and scavenging that many calories from non-optimal food sources would be an issue.
Not really an issue. If they are killing foes they can always eat them.
I mean, in theory sure that's an option (though such has basically zero actual portrayal in any fluff that I'm aware of), but doesn't work against say Necrons, Daemons and chaos corrupted stuff, war machines, etc, Tyranids might be awkward, and there's all sorts of doctrinal/cultural issues with eating the flesh of filthy xenos and cannibalism of other humans.
Not really an issue. If they are killing foes they can always eat them.
I wouldn't eat Orks. It doesn't look safe. Space Marines might be very resistant to poison, but Orks are even more so. I wouldn't eat Tyranid either. That's the sort of thing to end up infected with some terrible thing and turn into a Tyranid. I wouldn't eat a Chaos worshiper. It sounds heretical anyway since Space Marines absorb a part of their mind when you eat them. Tau and Eldars are probably very fine, with the possible exception of wracks and haemonculi.
I'd like to think they don't. Canon lore is Canon lore of course, so not that my opinion means anything, but there's sort of a Cruelness I see in the idea that Space Marines are held up as the saviours of the Imperium, and that the Imperium puts so much effort and faith into these mutant Soldiers but at the end of the day... they don't hold up the Imperium. Man does. I also don't really enjoy Bolter Porn or Marine Porn in story telling, but YMMV on that front. Another reason I've been moving out of 40k, if stories were any more focused on Marines I'm not sure other factions would have room to exist.
Marines matter because, as multiple fluff sources relate, a company of Marines (plus some 1st/10th company support) is enough to tip the balance of a planetary-level conflict.
Why are 100 Marines enough to tip that balance? No idea, plot armor or "rule of cool" or whatever I guess?
Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.
cody.d. wrote: Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.
And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).
the food issue is way less a one then you might think. One of the Space Marines implants allow them to digest and get nutrition from things that would be toxic or even indigestiable to a normal human. so foraging for food is a LOT easier for Marines then Guardsmen and I suspect deployed Marines take advantage of that. Food wise it's likely the guard has a more complex supply train that way. On a random world the guard may need to ship in all their food (unless of course it's a human world already and supply train issues aren't a factor for IoM units period) they likely don't have the luxery of finding out whats ediable or not. (seriously it'd be a nightmare) Space Marines however have faaaar less an issue. I'm sure there are some plants that would make even a space marine sick, but I bet those are far and few inbetween
To an extent sure and thats definitely a point in their favor sometimes, but if there's nothing but mud or airless rock or empty desert or bubbling acid lakes or deserted ghost tombs and whatnot, that's going to be a major supply issue moreso than it would be for normal humans.
Likewise they need more food and more time to actually eat all that than a normal human would, they'd need 20k cals just to not starve, 30 or 40 or more through combat. If they came across twenty packages of double stuff oreos thats enough for one Space Marine who'd have to spend time scarfing if all down himself, but that'd give enough calories for a platoon of normal humans, and scavenging that many calories from non-optimal food sources would be an issue.
Not really an issue. If they are killing foes they can always eat them.
I mean, in theory sure that's an option (though such has basically zero actual portrayal in any fluff that I'm aware of), but doesn't work against say Necrons, Daemons and chaos corrupted stuff, war machines, etc, Tyranids might be awkward, and there's all sorts of doctrinal/cultural issues with eating the flesh of filthy xenos and cannibalism of other humans.
Aside from the vast majority of armies being quite happy to take a vanquished enemy's supplies I'd question a good number of chapters having any issue with eating xenos or even humans.
I doubt Mortificators, Space Wolves or Blood Angels would see any issue with chowing down on traitors.
One further point look up the Omniphagea or Remembrancer organ.
I guess the real explanation for why Marines matter is that many 40k antagonists seem to have really notable central weak points that can be disrupted - powerful artifacts or rituals powering a much larger force, single commanders or hive ships or whatever whose forces will collapse into infighting or instinctive behavior if they are slain, and so on - so having a Really Really Really Even More Elite Precise Strike Force matters for getting in there and taking out the key target, after which conventional forces can mop up. (I believe this is basically the story of Black Reach.)
The two problems I have with that are:
a) it's not clear to me why Marines are really needed for that given the existence of Stormtroopers, Inquisitorial warbands, and so on
b) a lot of Marine units really don't match this role. Why do Marines have super-heavy tanks, or for that matter any frontline tanks at all? Why do they have their own artillery vehicles instead of just relying on orbital barrages? If all they're doing is surgical drop pod assaults and the like, a large amount of their armory doesn't make sense, but having Marines fight on the front line also doesn't really make sense given their limited numbers.
Martel732 wrote: Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.
Did...did you read what happened?
I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?
Aside from the vast majority of armies being quite happy to take a vanquished enemy's supplies I'd question a good number of chapters having any issue with eating xenos or even humans.
I doubt Mortificators, Space Wolves or Blood Angels would see any issue with chowing down on traitors.
A handful of chapters sure, but even then, it's viewed as rather deviant, and significant Space Marine and larger Imperial fluff and dogma would frown...heavily on such things, and certainly not anything touched by Chaos. I can't imagine say, the Blood Angels doing something like eating Orks or Tyranids, maybe SW's but then they try to be literally everything and have some of the weirdest and most contradictory and absurd background out there (like firing artillery by smell ). We certainly don't have much in the way of fluff on such things.
One further point look up the Omniphagea or Remembrancer organ.
These are things that are described, but have almost no actual mention or examples used in fluff beyond the basic acknowledgement of the organs existence, and to be perfectly honest, eating a brain to gain its knowledge would (by fundamental definition) destroy that information before it could be read. It'd be like trying to read a hard drive by throwing it through an industrial shredder after unpowering it and zapping it with a giant magnet
Despite the existence of such organs, Marines still tend to conduct (terrifying) interrogations rather than just cracking open skulls and slurping down, that bit of fluff largely appears to have been forgotten/abandoned.
"Why have Navy SEALs when we could just use battleship artillery and army regulars?" is sorta the gist of this thread. Except space marines bring their own naval artillery and tanks.
Vaktathi wrote: There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.
This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.
That's a terrible comparison, because the Imperium doesn't spend it's entire budget on Space Marines. The Imperium has the resources to spend generously on ALL THE THINGS.
Vaktathi wrote: DA are far from the only chapter to kill other Marines for CYA purposes, or even just for questions of honor.
Regardless, a third of them died on Vraks, and those sorts of losses should cripple a chapter for years if not decades given how long it takes to replace a Marine, but stuff like that is rarely accounted for in 40k fluff, at least not in any meaningful or realistic way.
Well, 40K fluff is also strewn across centuries or millennia, too. So even if it takes a chapter a hundred years to get back to full strength, that doesn't really matter too much in terms of the timescales 40k operates under.
In some ways that's fair, but then we have the problem of rare marine chapters doing nothing for decades and being even rarer. With the Dark Angels however, we have fluff of them doing all sorts of things relatively soon after (the siege of vraks being late 800's M41), and without any mention of losing a third of the chapter, a mighty blow, in other fluff of theirs.
It's emblematic of the problem with 40k fluff in that it really doesn't make sense when looked at critically, and kinda just needs to be accepted as "because the author says so" in general as opposed to there being any rationality behind the relevance of Space Marines in the larger universe
Same way it makes no sense to have chapters or legions that do lots of attritional warfare/sieges/frontal assaults/etc. I play Iron Warriors and the idea of them being attritional siege specialists able to battle across entire systems with a Grand Company is ridiculous once you look at what that would entail, despite how cool it can look on paper
Well, the siege tactics are definitely more of a Legion thing than a Chapter thing. "Modern day" sieges are probably much faster affairs against smaller targets than the massive fortresses of the Heresy era. Marines obviously have siege equipment like Vindicators, but they also have Assault Squads, Pods and teleporting Terminators to help them end whatever they're doing as fast as possible so as not to be wasteful.
As for casualties, I just imagine a lot of bionics. Modern day battlefield medicine is pretty spectacular these days, the ratio of wounded to death has only improved. Then marines are capable of withstanding even worse injuries, and are expected to cycle back into active duty after limb-replacement etc. One of my favorite older models is that 2nd Ed. Chaplain whose head is half metal. Effin bionic skull.
Kingsley wrote: it's not clear to me why Marines are really needed for that given the existence of Stormtroopers, Inquisitorial warbands, and so on...
Why does the U.S military have delta force or navy SEALS if they also they have army rangers?
Because highly skilled operatives with overwheming force being inserted into an area are worth ten times their number, they can move around more easily and have smaller numbers to hide, this is the concept of the space marines occupy in real life, small force of elite soldiers, the biggest difference in the scale, marines are near impervious to small arms fire, can run up to 40KPH for hours, can see further, hear further, react faster, are more resilient, can take more damage before being combat non effective, the list goes on.
If these things were real then any nation that had them would have such a tactical advantage over other nations it would be akin to bombs vs nukes, conventional warfare against such a force would simply be pointless as they can inflict unacceptable casualties much more rapidly that they would take them.
One further point look up the Omniphagea or Remembrancer organ.
These are things that are described, but have almost no actual mention or examples used in fluff beyond the basic acknowledgement of the organs existence, and to be perfectly honest, eating a brain to gain its knowledge would (by fundamental definition) destroy that information before it could be read. It'd be like trying to read a hard drive by throwing it through an industrial shredder after unpowering it and zapping it with a giant magnet
Despite the existence of such organs, Marines still tend to conduct (terrifying) interrogations rather than just cracking open skulls and slurping down, that bit of fluff largely appears to have been forgotten/abandoned.
Pretty sure it's actively used in the recent space sharks books, possibly one of the death watch books, and I know any of a number of the chaos books I've read recently.
It's not something people in good company do, but those people aren't interesting to read about anyway. It's certainly not abandoned, and just because it makes no sense does not rule it out of 40k.
Kingsley wrote: it's not clear to me why Marines are really needed for that given the existence of Stormtroopers, Inquisitorial warbands, and so on...
Why does the U.S military have delta force or navy SEALS if they also they have army rangers?
Because highly skilled operatives with overwheming force being inserted into an area are worth ten times their number, they can move around more easily and have smaller numbers to hide, this is the concept of the space marines occupy in real life, small force of elite soldiers, the biggest difference in the scale, marines are near impervious to small arms fire, can run up to 40KPH for hours, can see further, hear further, react faster, are more resilient, can take more damage before being combat non effective, the list goes on.
If these things were real then any nation that had them would have such a tactical advantage over other nations it would be akin to bombs vs nukes, conventional warfare against such a force would simply be pointless as they can inflict unacceptable casualties much more rapidly that they would take them.
JNAProductions wrote: And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.
Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?
Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.
Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.
Aside from the vast majority of armies being quite happy to take a vanquished enemy's supplies I'd question a good number of chapters having any issue with eating xenos or even humans.
I doubt Mortificators, Space Wolves or Blood Angels would see any issue with chowing down on traitors.
A handful of chapters sure, but even then, it's viewed as rather deviant, and significant Space Marine and larger Imperial fluff and dogma would frown...heavily on such things, and certainly not anything touched by Chaos. I can't imagine say, the Blood Angels doing something like eating Orks or Tyranids, maybe SW's but then they try to be literally everything and have some of the weirdest and most contradictory and absurd background out there (like firing artillery by smell ). We certainly don't have much in the way of fluff on such things.
One further point look up the Omniphagea or Remembrancer organ.
These are things that are described, but have almost no actual mention or examples used in fluff beyond the basic acknowledgement of the organs existence, and to be perfectly honest, eating a brain to gain its knowledge would (by fundamental definition) destroy that information before it could be read. It'd be like trying to read a hard drive by throwing it through an industrial shredder after unpowering it and zapping it with a giant magnet
Despite the existence of such organs, Marines still tend to conduct (terrifying) interrogations rather than just cracking open skulls and slurping down, that bit of fluff largely appears to have been forgotten/abandoned.
While I’ve never seen mention of the 8th organ that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. I honestly forgot about the implants completely until three recent books made mention of some and described what they did,Lukas the Trickster, Ashes of Prospero and Sons of the Hydra. I’d say it’s far more likely a lot of authors have simply never heard of the implants.
As for why they’d still have torture I think you summed it up pretty nicely with them destroying the information as they consume it. Most likely they get images, glimpses or something akin to a music video with clips from a movie, they have no real control over it but sometimes get lucky to get information confirming or refuting information gathered from torture. Torture is pretty inaccurate itself which is why there are so many methods with every other sadistic cretin thinking they can do it better. Intel gathering is only stopped by two conditions, a running out of time or a running out of sources.
As for cultural issues there are plenty of things large numbers do but people don’t talk about. Sex, religion, politics, guilty pleasures. While two of the chapters I mentioned before are probably pretty open about eating the enemy to gain information and nutrition hypocrisy is the second language in the Imperium and while they might mutter and give dark looks I’m betting Ultramarines will do it in private.
Martel732 wrote: Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.
Did...did you read what happened?
I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?
They didn't lose instantly in 15 minutes. Because thats what should have happened when thousands try to defend a planet from trillions.
I came here specifically because gws idea of marines is so stupid and untenable. Its also the fluff ive been force-fed the most.
JNAProductions wrote: And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.
Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?
Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.
Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.
I hate them because their practical implementation on a tabletop exposes the ubermensch fallacy celebrated in the fluff. And gw doesnt get it at all. They keep playing it straight.
Martel732 wrote: Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.
Did...did you read what happened?
I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?
They didn't lose instantly in 15 minutes. Because thats what should have happened when thousands try to defend a planet from trillions.
I came here specifically because gws idea of marines is so stupid and untenable. Its also the fluff ive been force-fed the most.
JNAProductions wrote: And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.
Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?
Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.
Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.
I hate them because their practical implementation on a tabletop exposes the ubermensch fallacy celebrated in the fluff. And gw doesnt get it at all. They keep playing it straight.
Martel732 wrote: Because the marine fluff is particularly absurd and their lack of understanding of scale is boggling. Its hard to ignore ba not being wiped by a trilion bugs.
Did...did you read what happened?
I was asking a serious question by the way. Why do you come to this part of Dakka? You clearly don't like the fluff so why come to a place specifically to talk about the fluff?
They didn't lose instantly in 15 minutes. Because thats what should have happened when thousands try to defend a planet from trillions.
I came here specifically because gws idea of marines is so stupid and untenable. Its also the fluff ive been force-fed the most.
JNAProductions wrote: And what happens when the commander is a Necron Overlord, surrounded by Lychguard? That's not a quick mission.
Or a Chaos Lord, his attendant Sorcerer and Dark Apostle, and a bunch of Chosen?
Those are the battles we actually play, rather than a squad of unnamed guardsman shooting at a series of progressively less important cultists.
Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread. I don't like marines all that much, but I do at least get them and their point. This thread reads like interpreting the fiction as RAW to attempt and reverse engineer a reason to hate them or otherwise get rid of them. There are chapters the imperium doesn't even seem aware of, so we clearly don't have a good number of how many actually exist. The tinpot tyrant structure so common to 40k's universe actually makes them incredibly useful when they do show up. You're not looking at competence of meritocracy, you're looking at a bunch of corrupt(possibly by chaos) dinks leading by force of personality. So it's incredibly effective to just shoot them, and every soldier sitting back to protect dear leader from sudden marines is a soldier not on the front lines. There are plenty of uses for them, plenty of ways they can matter, but no, they don't ground slog every battle like the heresy, which they also didn't ground slog every battle but no one cares in the slightest about the auxillia so there's like two books on them.
I hate them because their practical implementation on a tabletop exposes the ubermensch fallacy celebrated in the fluff. And gw doesnt get it at all. They keep playing it straight.
you hate them because your blood angels army cou;dn't autowin every fight and you're bitter
Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.
Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.
Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.
if you dislike the entire concept of geneticly engineered super soldiers... then why do you play 40k? I mean seriously it's like liking star wars well hating space ships
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.
Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.
if you dislike the entire concept of geneticly engineered super soldiers... then why do you play 40k? I mean seriously it's like liking star wars well hating space ships
Nah thats not quite fair, its like hating Jedi, an integral part of the setting but not the only part of the setting.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, thats what im looking for. Which is why i ladder vs koreans sometimes in starcraft and play vampire:the eternal struggle, a brutally hard card game. Autowins.
Quit reading in to make yourself feel superior. Ubermenschen are a stupid concept, especially as presented in 40k. That's it. I thought they were stupid in 3rd, when ba had far more favorable matchups.
if you dislike the entire concept of geneticly engineered super soldiers... then why do you play 40k? I mean seriously it's like liking star wars well hating space ships
Nah thats not quite fair, its like hating Jedi, an integral part of the setting but not the only part of the setting.
yeah and I always belived those people where crazy too, but there are a number of em out there.
BrianDavion wrote: yeah and I always belived those people where crazy too, but there are a number of em out there.
Just to pound this out, in 40k "I don't like super soldiers" is so far from possibly giving a single gak about this universe that I don't know why you'd be interested.
Let's start low, the Imperial Guard, these are the most elite soldiers of entire worlds leaving the imperium with a genuine gap in it's defensive ability when they are raised.
Tau? Mind controlled stratified society with the most rapidly advancing technology in the galaxy carefully managing
Orks? Genetically engineered super weapons harder to get rid of than herpes.
Eldar? Genetically engineered super weapon with delusions of grandeur or delusions and herpes.
Tyranids? No genetic engineering here clearly.
Chaos space marines? Oh let's toss some warp stuff in on top of that genetic engineered super weapon.
Oddly enough, all of them die when you hit them with lascannons.
There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.
The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.
The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.
The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.
true and it'd be intreasting to see a game design where a squad of marines where capable of dropping an entire battalion of guard, but I suspect it'd be a very "random heavy" game and not a lotta fun, without some sort of fundamental change
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.
The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.
The same could be said for most units in 40k. The format of the game doesn't work for the sort of engagement you're thinking about.
And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
Then there's the morale effect. A small squad of the night haunter's finest would be able to cause a lot of havoc in a hive and the military support for a guard army.
A marine bearing down on you, bullets bouncing off his armour would be rather intimidating as both his guns and his hands tend to leave behind a lot of gory piles of "may have been human"
And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.
As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.
YeOldSaltPotato wrote: There's really just not a lot of room left if the idea of genetically engineered super soldiers isn't your bag in 40k.
The problem I, and some other people, have with Space Marines isn't that they are genetically enhance super-soldier, it's the fact that their numbers are so low and their abilities and weaponry so unimpressive compared to those of other races that their entire premise becomes univers breaking. Space Marines aren't bad because they are super-soldiers. They are bad because they aren't numerous enough or godly enough.
Their weapons can blow off a limb and most hits are enough to take you out of the fight. Fluffwise they're plenty badass enough.
And Space Marines aren't supposed to be uber-superior to the xenos factions they're fighting, anyways. An Aspect Warrior vs. A Space Marine should be a fairly even match.
And that's precisely why Space Marines are unbelievable even within the parameter of the 40K univers. A Space Marine is pretty much rivaled by an Aspect Warrior. They are about as good as Nobz. They are about as good as Necron Immortals. They are a bit worse then Tyranid Warriors. They are a bit worse then Crisis Battlesuits. They are a bit worse then Incubi. They are about as good as Ogryns. They are slightly better then Scions and Sisters of Battle. There are probably well over a billion Necron Immortals in the galaxy. I don't even think I need to guess the number Tyranid Warriors in galaxy. It might be closer to the trillions. At such a scale, relatively middle range and immensely rare Space Marines would be ridiculously useless. A hundred Space Marine will make a drop pod assault on a Necron Lord surrounded by Lychguard easily a match to the very best Space Marines and thousands of Immortals are doom to failure from the start. Can they be useful? Yes, just like having a single plasma gun in an entire army can be useful, but it's probably not going to turn the tide of any battle let alone any war.
As for the moral effect, considering the most basic fighter in 40K is a fanatic and that a significant portion of the Imperium enemies are downright fearless, it's not very useful. If you want to scare rioting citizen and revolting slaves, it's marvelous. Kill three and the army will disband. If you want to kill walking, regenerating machine armed with disintegration gun, it's rather pointless.
You have to remember that its never ever a 1 v 1 situation, though. The strengths of a Space Marine are multiplied by his brothers, and working in tandem, they become a force much great than the sum of its parts. The tactics and strategies of the forces, the power of their weapons, and their fearlessness, amplifiy their simple physical traits. You mention them as equivalent to different units, but equivalent is not equal. As you say, Crisis Suits, head-on, are better. But Crisis Suits have smaller unit sizes, less logistical support, and far less experience in the field than even a noob-Marine due to Tau Lifespans. They also have different tactics entirely. Tyranid Warriors are much more numerous but have much lighter defenses and a different battlefield role, serving more as Lieutenants or a "Squad of Sergeants" than anything else. Genestealers would have been a fairer comparison as they share a battlefield role. Orks have a completely different command structure focused around a single powerful leader than falls apart with the death of this leader, where Space Marines have a steady chain of command in case a Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant or other officer is killed.
You must also remember than Space Marines were made 10k years ago. They were made to fight mostly Orks and other minor Xenos races, and occassionally the Eldar. Necrons weren't a thing in 30K, neither were Nids, and Tau still had gills and partially formed legs at that point. They were made to fight different foes, and are still used because, as you say, almost ever force in the galaxy has legions of troops that regular humans can't stand against. You can't rely on Ogryns to do everything, nor have the same strategies and tactics, nor can regular humans in Power Armour, like Battle Sisters, be expected to hit the same lofty goals as Space Marines.
Space Marines are superior to anything the Imperium can throw, either one on one, or in force. No one else in the Imperium can go toe-to-toe with the other elites of the galaxy.
Martel732 wrote:Yeah, they'd have.. plasma guns. And other anti-tank weapons. Man-portable anti-tank weapons make the concept of marines basically futile.
The plasma guns which the lore says are rare? The plasma guns that are notoriously unreliable?
And are all these anti-tank weapons in the same place? Are they capable of hitting a very mobile and responsive Astartes? Sure, they might be great at hitting a big ol' tank, but a large man, who's moving faster than most normal men ever could? Not to mention trying to actually hit something vital, and not a redundant system which won't just anger the Marine?
The disjoint is too large. Marines are in fact slower than guardsmen in the game, which makes the speed argunent impossible to buy. GW could have given marines 8" move or guardsmen 4" if they wanted this to be true. Marines are no faster than humans.
Only raven guard are modeled with to hit penalties and those don't function within double tap plasma range. Marines are no harder to hit than anything else. If they were, they'd be modeled like alaitoc.
Relic units have rarity requirements. Plasma does not. It is impossible to accept rarity of plasma when every scion squad has 40% plasma and when forge worlds exist. You can say its rare, but the reality is that its quite common.
Martel732 wrote: The disjoint is too large. Marines are in fact slower than guardsmen in the game, which makes the speed argunent impossible to buy. GW could have given marines 8" move or guardsmen 4" if they wanted this to be true. Marines are no faster than humans.
Only raven guard are modeled with to hit penalties and those don't function within double tap plasma range. Marines are no harder to hit than anything else. If they were, they'd be modeled like alaitoc.
Relic units have rarity requirements. Plasma does not. It is impossible to accept rarity of plasma when every scion squad has 40% plasma and when forge worlds exist. You can say its rare, but the reality is that its quite common.
are you being purposefully obtuse?
FLUFF DOES NOT EQUAL RULES, so stop using the rules to justify your dislike of the fluff, its moronic and you know it.
this" and just bombs the city off the map. At which point the attacker has failed to capture the city intact, an objective that was probably not going to happen anyway once that level of fighting started, but the losses in space marines are almost certainly an unacceptably high price to pay for that minor victory.
a squad of scouts could do it in far better fashion than some grunts. I mean I feel like Mugatu because I'm having a conversation with people that think storntroopers are better than marines.
