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Shooting drop pods is entirely possible.

Space Marines matter as much as the Writter wants them to matter.



In some cases 10 space marines are enough to destroy a full invasion as others have pointed out, Avenger-style. They do all the good thing and destroy the big bad boys that like Dune are inmune to all kind of damage because they have super-special anti deathstrike missile shields that can be penetrated by knives.

In another 100 marines die to a couple of missiles.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Shooting drop pods is entirely possible.

I wasn't even going to go there. But yes, there's no reason it couldn't happen.


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 Galas wrote:
Space Marines matter as much as the Writter wants then to matter.



In some cases 10 space marines are enough to destroy a full invasion as others have pointed out, Avenger-style. They do all the good thing and destroy the big bad boys that like Dune are inmune to all kind of damage because they have super-special anti deathstrike missile shields that can be penetrated by knives.

In another 100 marines die to a couple of missiles.

This is the truest and yet least satisfying answer. Table top makes it clear they don't matter at all in that paradigm.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t know that they do play up the Astartes all that much.

Most Imperial Citizens are likely to regard them as myths. Literal avenging angels.

The bulk of the laurels, quite rightly, go to the Astra Militarum. Each and everyone a holy martyr looking to happen. They’re you, they’re me, they’re the Every Man. A plucky Imperial Citizen, Armed with their trusty Lasgun. Putting their life on the line against a galaxy of horrors.

To purely promote the Astartes in the way you suggest (and I’m not seeking to call you out or anything) massively undermines that. It makes the average Imperial Citizen feel useless, and impotent.

From a propaganda point of view, that’s absolutely no good. You need The Plebs to feel that with a blessed las weapon in their hands, they’re a hard counter to the very worst the galaxy can throw at them. Anything less is to invite despair, and from despair, comes outright defeat.

Again, not attacking you personally. Always like to make such things clear, because tone of voice doesn’t work online


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In terms of what a single Astartes can do? I’ll refer you to the following scene from the frankly excellent Kingsman movie.

Warning. It is NOT safe for work. It’s very violent, and fairly graphic. This is an example of what a highly trained human can achieve. You add the post human status, and power armour on top? The kill ratio really makes sense!

Spoiler:

To clarify what I meant I believe that the Imperium emphasizes the victories and accomplishments of the Adeptus Astartes, not to the exclusion of the Imperial Guard, but moreso in a way that exaggerates their overall contribution to the Imperial war effort. The Imperium will still talk about heroes and successful regiments of the Imperial Guard but will also likely talk highly about the heroics of a company of, say, Ultramarines in that particular warzone even if they were one hundred soldiers among a billion. This is because the nigh-invincibility and combat prowess of the Ultramarines plays more into the Imperium's message about the inevitability of Imperial victory moreso than the heavy casualties sustained by the guard.

Then again, if the Regiment Standard is anything to go by, Imperial propaganda will also say the same about guardsmen. So, eh, it's a weak justification for why the best selling faction in 40k gets all the attention both in-universe and out while having relatively insignificant numbers.

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.

no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.

as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.

yeah sure, a fortified position prepped for Marines is gonna be rough on them. but chances are the first time you know about Marines being in the area to attack you, a terminator is punching through your chest.

Also remember real life wou;dn't be like 40k where 1 dice roll thats good eneugh can do anything, given how difficult it is to hurt a marine with a lasgun, that would translate in the real world into every guardsman having to poour on the fire until eventually after dozens if not hundres of shots they luck out and land a blow in a weak spot of the armor that has been further weakened.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.

no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.

as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.

yeah sure, a fortified position prepped for Marines is gonna be rough on them. but chances are the first time you know about Marines being in the area to attack you, a terminator is punching through your chest.

Also remember real life wou;dn't be like 40k where 1 dice roll thats good eneugh can do anything, given how difficult it is to hurt a marine with a lasgun, that would translate in the real world into every guardsman having to poour on the fire until eventually after dozens if not hundres of shots they luck out and land a blow in a weak spot of the armor that has been further weakened.

With forgeworlds, nothing would be rare. They don't understand the implications of their own setting.

Plasma would not be rare, even if they claim it.

BrianDavion wrote:
no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.

You are right in saying that plasma weapons are supposed to be rare. Few regiments of the Imperial Guard have access to those, but anti-tank and anti-armor weapons are plenty. Plasma weapons are far from being the only one. A hot-shot lasgun is designed to pierce power armors. Meltagun aren't rare and can easily kill a Space Marine no matter what type of armor he has. Grenade launchers with krak grenades can certainly damage a power armor and kill Space Marines since they are, afterall, bolters on steroids. Heavy bolters are standard anti-infantry weapons in the Guard so are autocannons. A platoon of guardsmen or their equivalent possess about a dozen weapons capable of killing a Space Marines. Xenos are similarly well equipped to kill Space Marine when they aren't simply even more powerful in one on one situation.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.

no Martel Plsma is rare. the fluff constantlt says the weapons are rare. stop pretending the table top is the fluff. it just makes you look stupid. plasma isn't everywhere anymore then every space Marine deployment consists if a smash captain and 3 squads of scouts.

as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.

yeah sure, a fortified position prepped for Marines is gonna be rough on them. but chances are the first time you know about Marines being in the area to attack you, a terminator is punching through your chest.

Also remember real life wou;dn't be like 40k where 1 dice roll thats good eneugh can do anything, given how difficult it is to hurt a marine with a lasgun, that would translate in the real world into every guardsman having to poour on the fire until eventually after dozens if not hundres of shots they luck out and land a blow in a weak spot of the armor that has been further weakened.

With forgeworlds, nothing would be rare. They don't understand the implications of their own setting.

Plasma would not be rare, even if they claim it.

only if you assume those foge worlds produce plasma guns in sufficant quantities to equip every man with them.

Which they clearly don't

Now you're just screaming "my head canon trumps your canon" sorry Marty but thats not gonna fly.

Do you have any idea what the production level of an entire planet dedicated to industry would be?

As I stated, there would be so many particle colliders that even rare elements would cease to be rare.

Nothing they write really matters to me, in large part, because their scale is so far off.

Martel732 wrote:
Do you have any idea what the production level of an entire planet dedicated to industry would be?

a lot, thing is... forge worlds don't all produce one product. they also produce a lot of things by hand, which slows things down by a LOT

BrianDavion wrote:
as for drop pods getting shot down, given we almost never hear of it happening I'm inclined to belive, for whatever reason, it's not easy.

Probably because we most commonly see drop pods used against traitor Imperial units, orks, etc, that have WWII-era AA guns manually aimed by a human gunner looking down an optical sight. In that case yes, shooting down a drop pod is going to be nearly impossible because the guns don't have the engagement envelope to fire effectively until the last second, and an incoming pod is still going to be moving fast enough to make it difficult to put enough hits on it to score a kill before it reaches the target. But contrast that with, say, a Tau world where the AA units are now long-range SAM batteries networked into an automated system capable of instantly recognizing a target and directing fire against it from whatever battery is in position to take the shot. Drop into that target and you're talking about sacrificing multiple chapters in a saturation attack intended to exhaust the defender's entire supply of missiles and hope that a few pods survive to reach the surface.

Space Marine Deathstorm Drop Pods serve the dual purpose of acting as additional targets to draw fire from the real drop pods, and to clear the landing area.

 Galas wrote:
Space Marines matter as much as the Writter wants them to matter.



In some cases 10 space marines are enough to destroy a full invasion as others have pointed out, Avenger-style. They do all the good thing and destroy the big bad boys that like Dune are inmune to all kind of damage because they have super-special anti deathstrike missile shields that can be penetrated by knives.

In another 100 marines die to a couple of missiles.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is basically it. 40k fiction has little consistency, and little basis in any sort of reality. It's a fantasy world with a scifi skin, and breaks down rapidly once any sort of realistic lens in applied.

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma is not rare at all. Even if they say it is, it isn't. There are entire worlds building gak. Nothing is rare. Even rare elements wouldn't be rare.

Even if it's canon it's not. Riiiiight.

There are worlds building things for the entire galaxy and the things in question are a lost art.

When it comes to Plasma guns, I've always assumed that its not just the plasma gun that is difficult to make, its the precision equipment required to manufacture all of its various components.. This holds true for a lot of modern equipment even the US military uses. Once a factory and all its manufacturing equipment has been shut down and destroyed, its often difficult to build new parts to repair that old weapon even if its technically older more primitive tech.

It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.

Many Hive Worlds can manufacture their own Las Weapons. Some can even do Bolters.

But Plasma? Not so much. Those, typically, seem to come from Forgeworlds. There are exceptions, such as House Van Saar, but they appear to be very uncommon.

I always viewed plasma guns as "comparatively rare" as in you don't see entire Imperial Guard regiments outfitted with them. But an inquisitor, space marine, or other such notables wouldn't have trouble getting their hands on one if they really wanted to because they are mass produced from forge worlds, even into the 40th millenium.

There are imperial guard regiments who do have plasma gunners in their line squads, and the skitarii units from Rhyza run almost exclusively plasma equipped IIRC.

To say that Space Marines would run into an entire enemy army equipped with plasma guns is not accurate to the setting, but neither is saying that plasma is a rare "one in a million" weapon that the space marines almost never encounter. Additionally as another poster pointed out, a heavy bolter is perfectly capable of killing a space marine and it is a standard heavy weapon in most guard and traitor guard regiments.

 Formosa wrote:
It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.

Exactly. Even a "rare" weapon is going to be found in mass numbers just because of the sheer size of the 40k universe. Plasma guns are only "rare" in the sense that not every squad that wants one necessarily gets one, they aren't priceless relics that most people have never even heard of.

And even then said plasma guns are often handed to special weapon squads. Who tend to hang around behind the lines to react to threats, lowering the risk of these rare and valuable weapons being wasted or lost. Even if a regiment has a hundred plasma guns in their armory that's still like a 1 to 50 ratio. Same goes for heavy weapon squads, usually having one or two lurking around here or there rather than the dozen squads we see in game.

As people have said before, 40K has a rather inconsistent scale in the fluff. But that does usually mean that the 10-50 space marines are unlikely to come across more than a handful. And they are meant to be scalpels, able to pick out that one tosser with a glowey gun and blow his brains out with their much lauded marksmenship.

But again, game mechanics vs fluff.

Space marines would be rather terrifying in a lot of real life scenarios.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.

Exactly. Even a "rare" weapon is going to be found in mass numbers just because of the sheer size of the 40k universe. Plasma guns are only "rare" in the sense that not every squad that wants one necessarily gets one, they aren't priceless relics that most people have never even heard of.

and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?

Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc

BrianDavion wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It's as simple as ten Trillion guard, ten Trillion lasguns, a million plasma guns is rare as rocking horse poop relatively speaking, so even though it appears they are common, they are not.

Exactly. Even a "rare" weapon is going to be found in mass numbers just because of the sheer size of the 40k universe. Plasma guns are only "rare" in the sense that not every squad that wants one necessarily gets one, they aren't priceless relics that most people have never even heard of.

and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?

Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc

Because the Dark Mech certainly doesn't exist, nor do highly competent and well-trained heretics.

BrianDavion wrote:
and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?

Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc

Again, plasma guns are not exceptional. They're standard-issue equipment that is even given to DKoK siege regiments fighting grinding wars of attrition. They are "rare" in the sense that a regiment might want one plasma gun per squad but only get one per five squads and have to settle for equipping the other four with melta guns or krak grenades or whatever, but that's all. Maybe the worst equipped PDF fodder might not have them at all, but is "space marines are great at killing low-tier PDF fodder" really a compelling defense of their existence? Any halfway competent army can deal with that kind of enemy, you don't need space marines for that.


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cody.d. wrote:
And they are meant to be scalpels, able to pick out that one tosser with a glowey gun and blow his brains out with their much lauded marksmenship.

It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.

 Peregrine wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
and what are the odds that the traitor guard unit, likely a PDF rabble (thus near the bottem of the Munitorium's supply list) would happen to have many if any?

Plasma guns are proably mostly seen with the more elite (and reliable guard) parituclarly ones that engage foes that might actually need to be engaged with plasma like Cadians etc

Again, plasma guns are not exceptional. They're standard-issue equipment that is even given to DKoK siege regiments fighting grinding wars of attrition. They are "rare" in the sense that a regiment might want one plasma gun per squad but only get one per five squads and have to settle for equipping the other four with melta guns or krak grenades or whatever, but that's all. Maybe the worst equipped PDF fodder might not have them at all, but is "space marines are great at killing low-tier PDF fodder" really a compelling defense of their existence? Any halfway competent army can deal with that kind of enemy, you don't need space marines for that.


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cody.d. wrote:
And they are meant to be scalpels, able to pick out that one tosser with a glowey gun and blow his brains out with their much lauded marksmenship.

It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.

My point is that Martell's arguement that Plasma is everywhere is well.. bogus. it's not everywhere, eys the rules say a squad can have 1 or two, but how many of them DO? as opposed to having I dunno flamers?
especially as Plasma guns are really specialist weapons aimed at cracking heavy infantry. which... isn't the most common thing in the world.

It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.

But how many situations can you imagine the several thousand strong force being able to aim more than a handful of plasmaguns at the 20 man squad of marines? And if there was such a concentration of marine killing weapons in an area I doubt the marines who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field. Additionally the super humans that can outsprint any human alive would likely make a point of moving to their objective before said anti-marine weapons can redeploy.

The strength of marines is their ability to apply overwhelming pressure to a precise area, more force than any defender could hope to survive. They don't need to kill every guardsmen, just the couple that are standing near the door they want to go through for whatever shield controls or other macguffin the story requires.

BrianDavion wrote:
My point is that Martell's arguement that Plasma is everywhere is well.. bogus. it's not everywhere, eys the rules say a squad can have 1 or two, but how many of them DO? as opposed to having I dunno flamers?
especially as Plasma guns are really specialist weapons aimed at cracking heavy infantry. which... isn't the most common thing in the world.

It's only bogus if you insist on reading it as literally every single person has a plasma gun. Plasma is absolutely "everywhere" in the sense that it's a common weapon, and a space marine going up against an imperial guard force is going to be shot at with plasma guns. And krak missiles, lascannons, battle cannons, melta guns, etc, all of which are capable of killing a space marine.


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cody.d. wrote:
But how many situations can you imagine the several thousand strong force being able to aim more than a handful of plasmaguns at the 20 man squad of marines?

Plenty. They might not be able to aim all at once but they're going to keep coming until the space marines are dead. Kill the first platoon and another one attacks to take its place. Eventually the plasma gunners are going to get lucky, and even if the entire force of thousands of guardsmen is wiped out to kill a single space marine the space marines have suffered a catastrophic defeat.

And if there was such a concentration of marine killing weapons in an area I doubt the marines who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field.

And if there was such a concentration of space marines I doubt the guardsmen who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field, instead of calling in an artillery strike to kill all of the space marines.

Additionally the super humans that can outsprint any human alive would likely make a point of moving to their objective before said anti-marine weapons can redeploy.

Only on the scale of a 40k battlefield, where the models are 28mm but the ranges are more like 1mm scale. In reality a battle would look more like playing a game of 40k on an entire football field, with armies deployed on opposite goal lines and all weapons having at least 25 yards of range (and heavy weapons potentially shooting the entire length of the field). Even moving at significantly more than the 6" movement speed of a normal human the space marines are going to be sitting in the kill zone for turn after turn after turn after turn.

The strength of marines is their ability to apply overwhelming pressure to a precise area, more force than any defender could hope to survive. They don't need to kill every guardsmen, just the couple that are standing near the door they want to go through for whatever shield controls or other macguffin the story requires.

But if all you need to do is kill a couple of guardsmen standing near a door then why not send a squad of storm troopers? They'll do the job just as well, and without the obscene cost of a space marine.

cody.d. wrote:

It's not just one guy, and that's the point the space marine fans keep missing. It's hundreds, potentially thousands of plasma gunners and thousands more armed with melta guns/krak missiles/battle cannons/etc that are all capable of killing marines. And when that many heavy weapons are pointed at a target eventually one of them is going to get the kill.

But how many situations can you imagine the several thousand strong force being able to aim more than a handful of plasmaguns at the 20 man squad of marines? And if there was such a concentration of marine killing weapons in an area I doubt the marines who are supposed to be tactically astute would simply walk into that killing field. Additionally the super humans that can outsprint any human alive would likely make a point of moving to their objective before said anti-marine weapons can redeploy.

The biggest problem usually is that the 8ft tall dudes that weigh as much as cars, running around painted in bright primary colors tend to broadcast their presence in a rather unsubtle manner and make excellent targets, if we're talking questions of tactical astuteness

There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.

This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.

Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.

If you read pretty much any novel involving marines at all there are very rarely pitched battles that would allow for the use of artillery or the application of an armies full firepower. It's just not what they are designed for. And any job that the Tempustus could do can indeed be done more effectively by space marines. But they do make a good budget alternative.

cody.d. wrote:
Perhaps a better way of thinking about it is, when in the fluff have guardsmen had ideal conditions for themselves? Being baseline humans they will always have issues such as insufficient support, degrading morale, fatigue, environmental conditions, hunger and sickness, incompetent leadership and many more other potential downfalls of a human you would see in a trench in the WW2 period.

And yet we see normal human troops do absolutely incredible things in such situations in real life and in 40k fluff, not always, but professional troops are trained for exactly that sort of thing, and many of these things can often apply to marines as well (while they may be better at dealing with them, they are not totally immune to things themselves (e.g. if anything they'd need dramatically more support man for man than normal humans, a Marine would need a 20k calorie/day diet and an entire train of mechanical support staff for the armor).

If you read pretty much any novel involving marines at all there are very rarely pitched battles that would allow for the use of artillery or the application of an armies full firepower. It's just not what they are designed for. And any job that the Tempustus could do can indeed be done more effectively by space marines. But they do make a good budget alternative.

They're portrayed doing this sort of thing all the time.There were/are entire legions/chapters dedicated to exactly these kinds of things (I play one, Iron Warriors ). It's part of the problem with their background, because half the SM background is doing things where stuff like artillery, orbital weaponry, air support, or armored units would be (and are) brought to bear. Pitched battles, sieges, direct planetary assaults, extended urban warfare, etc. One can open just about any Codex and see examples of Marines engaging in such things, particularly where it's just one Chapter going off and fighting some sort of stupidly large war. Brothers of the Snake, Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun, the Word Bearers Omnibus, etc all have examples of this sort of thing, as do the conflicts on many worlds such a Armageddon, Vraks, Cadia, Fenris, etc.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
There is not an unreasonable comparison to tanks. Tanks are big, powerful war machines. They can cross a field far faster than any human can hope to, and require expensive specialist weaponry to destroy, and can sometimes have an effect out of all proportion to their numbers. However, as history has shown through many conflicts, they are far from invulnerable and one doesn't need enough weapons to immediately blast them all into oblivion to blunt or turn back an armored thrust.

This. And imagine if, to be a proper comparison with space marines, there was only a single tank in the entire world and it cost the entire US military budget to build it. Yes, it might accomplish something somewhere if it is deployed in exactly the right situations, but it won't have any meaningful effect on winning a war because there's only one of it and there's no way you can possibly justify that investment of resources.

Aye, that's where the issue is, the numbers are just way too small to be relevant on the galactic scale 40k plays at.