Martel732 wrote: I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.
So baaaasicly you're willing to accept a setting where people can shoot "mind bullets" one where FTL travel is possiable, by moving through hell, a setting where deamons physicly exist, a setting where chainsaws are valid melee weapons, where TYRANIDS EXIST (there are numerous things about that race that simply don't work if you apply physics to them) and god knows how many other examples of 40k taking physics out behind the woodshed...
all that exists but the stopping point for you is that somethings are built by hand instead of mass produced? really?!
Martel732 wrote: I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.
that is assuming that they want to and there is no decree disallowing it, like rhinos and land raiders, the guard do not get those for fluff reasons, also even in a galaxy of resources that does not mean that certain ones are not very hard to find or rare, for all we know the key part for power armour is unobtanium 54 and only found in tiny quantities (relatively), even in hard sci fi universes rarity is still a thing.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The closest games I can think of which actually come closest to 40k lore are probably Space Marine
Amusingly, Space Marine got complaints from people about how the captain died too easily. I think the dev team did a good job in trying to balance both the lethality of Orks and Chaos Marines with the skill of a captain who was a veteran of a thosuand battles.
Martel732 wrote: I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.
So baaaasicly you're willing to accept a setting where people can shoot "mind bullets" one where FTL travel is possiable, by moving through hell, a setting where deamons physicly exist, a setting where chainsaws are valid melee weapons, where TYRANIDS EXIST (there are numerous things about that race that simply don't work if you apply physics to them) and god knows how many other examples of 40k taking physics out behind the woodshed...
all that exists but the stopping point for you is that somethings are built by hand instead of mass produced? really?!
Not really. The warp is a dumb deus ex machina and i don't enjoy any references to it. Demons are stupid by extension. Tyranid fluff needs massive modification as well.
The production fallacy is a stopping point, not the stopping point.
Martel732 wrote: I can't help it. They don't get to redefine every aspect of reality. Scale is scale. Stars have the mass they have as do their satellites. Uninhabitable rocky worlds would be completely converted to refined product. Especially on their time scale. There would be the capacity to create trillions of suits of powee armor, regardless of their opinion.
that is assuming that they want to and there is no decree disallowing it, like rhinos and land raiders, the guard do not get those for fluff reasons, also even in a galaxy of resources that does not mean that certain ones are not very hard to find or rare, for all we know the key part for power armour is unobtanium 54 and only found in tiny quantities (relatively), even in hard sci fi universes rarity is still a thing.
Forgeworlds would use particle accelerators to create any stable scarce element. There is no rarity when plabets dedicated to production exist. You can have millions of accelerators on a planet and more in orbit if necessary.
Still, its a naval concept that exists independently of 40k. I find it implauble that the imperium ever gets the drop on superior tech races. Home planets of eldar would likely be guarded constantly.
Too much is asking me to accept that everyone in the galaxy is an idiot. Maybe because its written by idiots? I don't know.
Shadenuat wrote: I gotta give it to the Tau, Alaitoc (and a few other Craftworlds wiped by Marines) couldn't even handle a single marine Chapter, not three.
1000 guys took on a craftWORLD? This is why I can't take bolter porn seriously.
I am willing to be there is more to it that just a thousand marines taking the craftworld, circumstances likely matter, any other forces present etc.
You are right, the Eldars had to fight waves after waves of Elisean guardsmen and Titans before the Space Marines arrived and broke their overstreched lines and even then, they did muster a counter attack in which Aspect Warriors were roughly equivalent ot Space Marines and in which a young Farseer kills the chief Librarian in duel showing that indeed Space Marines and Eldars are comparable in combat, but that the enemy was so numerous they could be all the same place. The only very dubious thing is that the entire battle seems to have been very, very short like a day long instead of a campaign lasting days of not weeks.
Still, its a naval concept that exists independently of 40k. I find it implauble that the imperium ever gets the drop on superior tech races. Home planets of eldar would likely be guarded constantly.
Too much is asking me to accept that everyone in the galaxy is an idiot. Maybe because its written by idiots? I don't know.
Martel: "Craftworld X was an inside job!"
Perhaps the writers are idiots, or perhaps you're simply refusing to fill in the blanks necessary to reconcile the lore.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The closest games I can think of which actually come closest to 40k lore are probably Space Marine
Amusingly, Space Marine got complaints from people about how the captain died too easily.
Really? Maybe on the hardest difficult, but on normal and easy, he felt just fine. Every time I think he acted slow, I also thought about the guardsmen in that game, and how Titus breezes past them, and it all feels better.
Bolters feel sufficiently powerful against guardsmen (like, two bolter rounds turn them to mush), which only makes Orks feel so much more strong in comparison.
I think the dev team did a good job in trying to balance both the lethality of Orks and Chaos Marines with the skill of a captain who was a veteran of a thosuand battles.
Agreed. The guardsmen get overwhelmed by handfuls of Orks, but Titus alone is enough to break entire hordes. If I were to show off my favourite film/video game depiction of a Space Marine, Space Marine probably takes the cake for me.
At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.
It was not a single hunter cadre, we are just told about a single hunter cadre moving in to retake the governors palace, they were clearly reinforced as time went on especially as they directly stated it, also you all keep ignoring the MANTA that was there too.
"The first the Avenging Sons knew of any Tau forces on Taros was the arrival of the Manta over the night-darkened city. Soon, Hammerhead gunships followed by XV8 Crisis Battlesuits and Devilfish-mounted Fire Warriors would be closing in on blocking position three. An entire Hunter Cadre was bearing down on the Space Mannes, moving at speed to reinforce the Governor's Palace."
" Barracudas raced low over Tarokeen to launch missiles in the Governor’s palace."
"The Tau had used the night-time full to reinforce their mauled Hunter Cadre"
So the attack was a Manta carrying a hunter cadre backed by baracudas, later reinforced with an unknown number of hunter cadres and forces against a company of marines with no heavy support elements in a reinforced position, the marines were ambushed and faced overwhelming firepower and were heavily outnumbered and still mauled the Tau....
Everything I stated is right there in the book and for some reason people are either not going to read the story or are just trusting what others are saying when they argue, the map of the palace is there, the estimated forces of the Tau are there, the overarching story of the battle is there.
You forgot to mention the five Thunderhawk the Space Marines had to conduct a massive bombing run and the fact a Manta cannot transport more then 195 Tau fire warriors in addition to a maximum of two hammerhead and two devilfish as well as 8 battlesuits. That's the maximal size of the force that attacked the Space Marines on the first day and still caused heavy casualties namely two dead tactical squads if I'm not mistaken. I doubt the reinforcement were that much more numerous considering they had to be ferried by the same Manta. Note that the total transport capacity of a Manta exceed the size of a single Hunter Cadre which means it's completely possible for the Tau to have had no other reinfocement then the rest of the troops on board of the same Manta who were kept in reserve for a grand total of about 200 Tau vs 100 Space Marines. In all other instences, the lore respected the quantity of troops a single vehicle can transport, I don't see why it wouldn't be the case here.
Melissia wrote: At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.
Depends which type. Your unit leader Nob, and I suppose even the regular Nob units (in game and lore, not Space Marine) I think should be inferior to a Space Marine, whereas your Boss Nobs (the 'Ard Nob, like the one that appears in the sewers in Act 2) should be an equal match for a Space Marine.
I did like how in Space Marine, it felt like Titus was just as durable as Leandros and Sidonus, only more experienced and skilled. I'm not personally a fan of HQ choices getting more wounds "just because", but I understand as a gameplay mechanic, it's there.
It was not a single hunter cadre, we are just told about a single hunter cadre moving in to retake the governors palace, they were clearly reinforced as time went on especially as they directly stated it, also you all keep ignoring the MANTA that was there too.
"The first the Avenging Sons knew of any Tau forces on Taros was the arrival of the Manta over the night-darkened city. Soon, Hammerhead gunships followed by XV8 Crisis Battlesuits and Devilfish-mounted Fire Warriors would be closing in on blocking position three. An entire Hunter Cadre was bearing down on the Space Mannes, moving at speed to reinforce the Governor's Palace."
" Barracudas raced low over Tarokeen to launch missiles in the Governor’s palace."
"The Tau had used the night-time full to reinforce their mauled Hunter Cadre"
So the attack was a Manta carrying a hunter cadre backed by baracudas, later reinforced with an unknown number of hunter cadres and forces against a company of marines with no heavy support elements in a reinforced position, the marines were ambushed and faced overwhelming firepower and were heavily outnumbered and still mauled the Tau....
Everything I stated is right there in the book and for some reason people are either not going to read the story or are just trusting what others are saying when they argue, the map of the palace is there, the estimated forces of the Tau are there, the overarching story of the battle is there.
You forgot to mention the five Thunderhawk the Space Marines had to conduct a massive bombing run and the fact a Manta cannot transport more then 195 Tau fire warriors in addition to a maximum of two hammerhead and two devilfish as well as 8 battlesuits. That's the maximal size of the force that attacked the Space Marines on the first day and still caused heavy casualties namely two dead tactical squads if I'm not mistaken. I doubt the reinforcement were that much more numerous considering they had to be ferried by the same Manta. Note that the total transport capacity of a Manta exceed the size of a single Hunter Cadre which means it's completely possible for the Tau to have had no other reinfocement then the rest of the troops on board of the same Manta who were kept in reserve for a grand total of about 200 Tau vs 100 Space Marines. In all other instences, the lore respected the quantity of troops a single vehicle can transport, I don't see why it wouldn't be the case here.
No I did not, I put the story right there for everyone to read for themselves
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Forgeworlds would use particle accelerators to create any stable scarce element. There is no rarity when plabets dedicated to production exist. You can have millions of accelerators on a planet and more in orbit if necessary.
Whut.... like....huh? do forgeworlds even have this tech, do they have it in enough quantity to do as you propose, are they able to replicate this tech in any meaningful way.... dude, this is the stretch of all stretches, I get this is a possibility but you are gonna have to show me that this even exists in 40k, I know we have partical accelerator weaponry but that is not the same.
I... do not have the energy or will to unpack this. Suffice it to say, paranoid conspiracy theories do not make historical facts.
I've heard this theory too although a lot of the evidance can also be written off as the Americans simply being complacient.
A high school history teacher I had suggested that the Americans where expecting an attack on the Phillipeans instead.
Not to detail but complacent. Pearl was well in the far extent of japanse range, the fleet would be thousands of miles from home with little spare if they where forced into a fight any substantial battle phase.
Likely thry run out before home if then of thry did.
They where really pushing the envelope to the limit attacking pearl.
Us got caught napping.
Japan where extremely daring.
Anyone even the most powerful regardless of anything and ahyehere, real or fluff can be caught sitting on lourrels.
I come a little late for the tangent about the Eldar Craftworld but it was funny because one GW author... was it Phil Kelly? When asked about how Eldar, being such a "dying race" are always dying like red-shirts in nearly every piece of fluff, and sustaining heavy lose after heavy lose, are still capable of fighting.
And his response was literally "Theres as much Eldar as the writter wants them to be".
And thats basically the whole underlying philosophy of all GW's writting.
Melissia wrote: At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.
Depends which type. Your unit leader Nob, and I suppose even the regular Nob units (in game and lore, not Space Marine) I think should be inferior to a Space Marine
A bit slower perhaps, but certainly far stronger physically. A basic Ork Boy is just as physically durable as a Space Marine outside of armor, and even your "basic" Nob is far, FAR more durable than that. The main advantage that the Marines would have over a Nob is discipline and training, and of course equipment quality.
I will accept that "nob" is a very vague concept in Orky Kultur. It's just the guy in charge of a mob of boyz. But generally for an Ork, being in charge also makes you large, and being large also makes you in charge. An Ork that is "bigga" literally becomes bigger; the Nobz of the Orks are a cut above the rest by definition, and "bigga is betta" is a self-fulfilling prophecy for Orks.
Galas wrote: And his response was literally "Theres as much Eldar as the writter wants them to be".
I think he did admit though that 12 inch Shuriken Catapults were a mistake from the start.
As for Alaitoc and Eldar "Pearl Harboured", of course Eldar knew enemies are coming - that's what Seer Council is for - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression. I admit that while I do read Thorpe, I don't pay massive attention to every water filled page of his. It's the same book where Dreadnought killed Karandras and protagonist had to jump into dead Phoenix Lord to power him up.
There are also other examples of fallen Craftworlds ofc (like during Great Crusade) which are usually "small and unknown" and are killed when spehhs marines come.
It did amuse me though that they thrown so many Marine chapters on Tau, but for a Craftworld was one enough. Also this bit was amusing to me:
“Space Marines, tanks, countless soldiers, how can we fight against such things?” asked Arhulesh.
Space Marines, you see... oh and those other dudes, those we can deal with.
" - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"
Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines
Eldar divination is not perfect, far from it, it can also be interfered with or outright blocked if chaos gets involved, so in the example above its just as likely that they simply did not see it coming, divination is as much about interpretation as it is finding the right threads (at least according to eldrad and ahirman) to follow, there could be the problem of counter divination too, for all we know marines hitting that craftworld at that time was when it was at its most vunerable..... Just as planned cackles tzeench.
Martel732 wrote: " - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"
Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines
you seem to think that Eldar if left alone won't do anything bad to humanity, which is.... inaccurate. the eladr have their own agenda and will happily screw over humanity.
Martel732 wrote: " - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"
Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines
you seem to think that Eldar if left alone won't do anything bad to humanity, which is.... inaccurate. the eladr have their own agenda and will happily screw over humanity.
As bad as the Tyranids? Didn't think so. It's called target priority and the IoM doesn't have any. Because everyone in 40K is an idiot by necessity for their plots.
At a minimum, send your mooks against the race with guns that treat everything like a gretchin.
Formosa wrote: Eldar divination is not perfect, far from it, it can also be interfered with or outright blocked if chaos gets involved
Don't even need Chaos for that.
The idea of a.. Skein I believe Thorpe called it? Is that a lot of things including Eldar themselves interfere with it. For example, when a Phoenix Lord acts, it is like a fiery thread through whole future which grabs all other threads with it and pushes into direction of that person's future, making it very hard to predict or change the future.
To be honest, most of the standard Eldar plots (which Path of the Warrior also follows) are about some prophecy which is read incorrectly and screws everyone, but at last moment Farseer gets the Sudden Realization TM and fixes their own screw ups.
But I think I digress. Maybe we can talk about how many Avatars of Khaine you need to kill a space marine or something.
Melissia wrote: At the same time, if Titus allowed himself to get grabbed by a Nob, it could be over for him right then and there. They were a SEVERE threat to him-- and they should have been.
Depends which type. Your unit leader Nob, and I suppose even the regular Nob units (in game and lore, not Space Marine) I think should be inferior to a Space Marine
A bit slower perhaps, but certainly far stronger physically. A basic Ork Boy is just as physically durable as a Space Marine outside of armor, and even your "basic" Nob is far, FAR more durable than that. The main advantage that the Marines would have over a Nob is discipline and training, and of course equipment quality.
I will accept that "nob" is a very vague concept in Orky Kultur. It's just the guy in charge of a mob of boyz. But generally for an Ork, being in charge also makes you large, and being large also makes you in charge. An Ork that is "bigga" literally becomes bigger; the Nobz of the Orks are a cut above the rest by definition, and "bigga is betta" is a self-fulfilling prophecy for Orks.
Many people confuses the fact that one can be easely killed with being "weak". A human is a human and we have examples of soldiers of old fighting in dozens of battles and killing tons of enemies. And with a single, good pointed spear thrust or sword slash, they would have been dead. But the point is that they where skilled enough to not have that happened to them.
The same happens with marines. Barring the diferences, because marines can sustain a TON of damage, is absolutely coherent for a space marine to be killed by an ork boy if for example he is overwhelmed by them and one just rips is head off, bud still be much more "powerfull" and skilled that those boyzs, even the one that killed him.
Because Eldar massacre colonists that mistakenly arrive on maiden worlds. Or because Eldar forsee some catastrophe that can only be averted by attacking the IoM. Or Eldar deflect Ork Waaaaghs away from their territory and towards IoM worlds, wreaking havoc.
Martel732 wrote: " - they divine the future of the Craftworld constantly and pick the best outcome. If I remember right, they even knew they *had* to fight - to reveal during a fight some truth to Imperial commander so Imperium would cease agression"
Okay, that's not bad reasoning. Still, why would IoM waste resources on Eldar? And don't marines against the faction with starcannons. Probaby more starcannons then you have marines
you seem to think that Eldar if left alone won't do anything bad to humanity, which is.... inaccurate. the eladr have their own agenda and will happily screw over humanity.
As bad as the Tyranids? Didn't think so. It's called target priority and the IoM doesn't have any. Because everyone in 40K is an idiot by necessity for their plots.
At a minimum, send your mooks against the race with guns that treat everything like a gretchin.
That's not how you prioritize your use of limited assists.
Firstly let's get out of the way the idea that the IoM wastes time and energy fighting foes they don't need to fight. the IoM was quite willing to call an armistance with the Tau to fight the Tyranid threat.
However generally speaking resources are going to be theatre based. if the Ultramarines are on the eastren fringe, they're going to focus on dealing with issues in that part of the galaxy, that means dealing with a craft world causing trouble there before racing off to fight tyranids on the clear other side of the galaxy when, due to the vaguarities of warp travel etc.and communication speed. there is no garentee they'll show up on time.
Moving along, the eldar have a long history of being willing to see entire worlds of humans burn, if it means saving eldar lives. And are happy to use Catpaws to do so. If a craftworld has manipulated the l;ast 3 ork attacks on a sector, why wouldn't the IoM deal with the problem at it's source rather then the symptom?
Space Marine 2011 was too traditional a game in that it had one guy, Captain Titus running through a gauntlet of orks and a chaos warband with barely any help. I don't think it represents an Adeptus Astartes capabilities too well.
A Space Marines advantages lies in his training, his equipment, and his tactics. The enhanced physiology is impressive, but the way I see it, it's simply a platform to build off of. The Astartes is not just the physiology, its the whole package.
The Space Marines are capable of being a quick response force, because their organization is entirely autonomous. Aside from a few supply chains they can't do without in the long term, such as power armor, ships, and geneseed, a Chapter can operate for an indeterminate amount of time on their own, making them the ideal solution when it comes to plugging a gap in manpower throughout the entire Imperium.
The Space Marines are masters of war. Since the Legions operated under a command system and doctrine suitable for a legion of Astartes, the reformation into Chapters changed up everything about the Loyalist Chapters. Instead of mass recruiting, Chapters can now choose the best candidates without too much pressure to reach large number quotas. Since the Heresy, it's likely the equipment and standards of production have also improved, which should give a Space Marine a leg up over any other enemies largely considered their equals. Finally, the Legions were made for one purpose, conquest. A Space Marine Chapter has another purpose. Ensure survival of the Imperium of Man, and within that one duty, it has to be able to perform every role imaginable when it comes to warfare. They have been doing it for 10,000 years. As such, I imagine their strategies, tactics, and combat doctrines are extremely flexible and superior to most of the enemies they come across.
That being said, I agree with a lot of people who say that many of the reading material for Warhammer 40,000 don't seem to reflect the capabilities of the Space Marines properly. I don't think Space Marines would die as often as portrayed in stories. I imagine most Chapters have over 1000 Astartes within their ranks, and I imagine there are a lot more than 1000 chapters throughout the galaxy.
I think you are missing a key component about the power of space marines. Because they are such potent warriors. Having too many of them invites the risk of a second heresy. Which is why legions were reduced and limited in number. The imperium certainly has the ability to produce more space marines...they have a million planets and basically unlimited resources. The thing is - their most expendable resource (manpower) is also pretty capable. They only need 1000 chapters to keep the imperium in line because they just have so many freaking defended planets. They can afford to lose a sector and retake it in a few decades. Plus they expand a lot too still. If you read the fluff about the imperium - it really can't afford to get any bigger. It is so large most of it it out of communication with itself. To get even bigger would basically ensure a split and force civil war (it probably still is inevitable). Another key factor is how much of the imperium is not assessable to xenos and chaos. There might be more than 1000 hot zones of conflict but they aren't all going off at all times. What ensues is a somewhat convenient struggle for survival that keeps citizens indoctrinated to the emperor.
On the Space Marine game. Obviously it was set up to be a 3rd person shotem up game which deliberately stated in the beginning this isn't how the codex would have stated the invasion should have been dealt with. However. Even a rigid follower of the codex (an Ultramarine) can be forced to go above and beyond the call of duty and still expect success. I love the game so I am extremely biased. I think it is a great example of what a marine hero is. Stoic in their duty they will fight no matter the odds to achieve the emperors will and expect to win with their skill.
The game had you in place of a battle-hardened captain, not your "Average" Space Marine, but a hero amongst heroes. Obviously it was in part a power fantasy, but what about Space Marines isn't?
Melissia wrote: The game had you in place of a battle-hardened captain, not your "Average" Space Marine, but a hero amongst heroes. Obviously it was in part a power fantasy, but what about Space Marines isn't?
In that game, you play a Space Marine and you easily kill about 20-30 Chaos Space Marines without much trouble (and you kill a demon prince bear handed).
Xenomancers wrote: I think you are missing a key component about the power of space marines. Because they are such potent warriors. Having too many of them invites the risk of a second heresy. Which is why legions were reduced and limited in number.
I understand that. But the galaxy is full of secrets. Chapters that are no longer remembered, MIA, or simply forgotten would not the most unheard about thing.
Xenomancers wrote: I love the game so I am extremely biased. I think it is a great example of what a marine hero is. Stoic in their duty they will fight no matter the odds to achieve the emperors will and expect to win with their skill.
you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.
Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?
you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.
Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?
The last time I played it I put it on hard and played it the whole time through with only dying once. Plus placing a restriction on myself to only use pistols and CC weapons. It's much more fun this way. Plus the lascannon on a captain just doesn't make any sense . The gameplay is not cannon anyways. The story is. Plus to be honest - if you try to take on more than 2 CSM at a time you will get whooped. They are extremely resilient.
Cannot think of a time where a single lone captain has taken on 30+ marines and won by charging at them, but then this game does not do that either, at most you get 2/3 in an area you have to deal with and the fluff is full of moments like that.
you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.
Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?
The last time I played it I put it on hard and played it the whole time through with only dying once. Plus placing a restriction on myself to only use pistols and CC weapons. It's much more fun this way. Plus the lascannon on a captain just doesn't make any sense . The gameplay is not cannon anyways. The story is. Plus to be honest - if you try to take on more than 2 CSM at a time you will get whooped. They are extremely resilient.
the story isn't canon eaither last I checked. unless they retcon Titus to be Cato's predecessor
you play as a space Marine captain, and killing 20-30 CSMs with a Space Marine captain isn't THAT hard to belive depending on build.
Actually, yes it's pretty astounding for a Space Marine to kill 20-30 CSMs in a single engagement. The proof is also in the pudding the vast majority of players will die half a dozen time over the course of the game. I don't exactly remember how many times I died, but it must be around those numbers. How many people beat that game on their first run without dying even once?
The last time I played it I put it on hard and played it the whole time through with only dying once. Plus placing a restriction on myself to only use pistols and CC weapons. It's much more fun this way. Plus the lascannon on a captain just doesn't make any sense . The gameplay is not cannon anyways. The story is. Plus to be honest - if you try to take on more than 2 CSM at a time you will get whooped. They are extremely resilient.
the story isn't canon eaither last I checked. unless they retcon Titus to be Cato's predecessor
Didnt the devs say it was an alternative universe to 40k so they could play with it a bit more?
Martel732 wrote: I like the alternate universe explanation for everything.
Like treating the tabletop as alternate too - basically, all the different forms of media are alternate - Dawn of War, Space Marine, tabletop, etc etc.
Martel732 wrote: I like the alternate universe explanation for everything.
Like treating the tabletop as alternate too - basically, all the different forms of media are alternate - Dawn of War, Space Marine, tabletop, etc etc.
Great. I'm stuck in the universe of suck. I still think the tabletop take the "toning down" WAY to far. Because there's stuff fluff in the codices that doesn't jive.
Martel732 wrote: Great. I'm stuck in the universe of suck. I still think the tabletop take the "toning down" WAY to far. Because there's stuff fluff in the codices that doesn't jive.
in the fluff Salamanders still have battle automata and pyroclasts.... its worse than you think
No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.
Thats because in the TT alternate universe plasma can be built with particle generator thingies and all physics are on a 1-10 scale with the only exception being weapons with a setting of 11+
Dakka has created a new meme and I am running with it
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.
There's no solution for Plasma being evrywhere. I know I've expounded on this before, but the problem is space marines in table top are popular, they're the most popular army by far, and thus TAC lists assume a 3+ 4T defensive profile for basic troops. I've noted BTW this is the biggest area of differance between table top and marines. In table top everyone is kitted to kill Marines, just the way it is, they're not delibeteratly list tailoring but they're going to be geared to take on a space marine army. Meanwhile in universe Marines are rare rare rare rare. your average army fighting the IoM is going to kit to kill guard. not marines. which means Marines have a lot less anti-marine ordinance to owrry about
Martel732 wrote: No, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of the general scale of suckitude. The details aren't the issue. Marines can't beat slaver space pirates or random rebels infected with Tyranid goo. The devs know this, and continue to do nothing about it. The idea of table top marines taking on an actual military force is laughable. Especially because plasma IS everywhere in tabletop.
There's no solution for Plasma being evrywhere. I know I've expounded on this before, but the problem is space marines in table top are popular, they're the most popular army by far, and thus TAC lists assume a 3+ 4T defensive profile for basic troops. I've noted BTW this is the biggest area of differance between table top and marines. In table top everyone is kitted to kill Marines, just the way it is, they're not delibeteratly list tailoring but they're going to be geared to take on a space marine army. Meanwhile in universe Marines are rare rare rare rare. your average army fighting the IoM is going to kit to kill guard. not marines. which means Marines have a lot less anti-marine ordinance to owrry about
You don't even need plasma. Heavy bolters remove marines far faster than they do guardsmen. Per point. Dissy cannons and plasma scions are just an extra kick in the balls. I don't see as much plasma because i'm in a group with lots of hit penalties, but my army is still bad. I just don't know how GW can read their own fluff and then write the power armor codices. They're a total liability.
Martel732 wrote: Heavy bolters remove marines far faster than they do guardsmen. Per point.
You exaggerate again; the truth depends on variables like cover and WHO is firing. A heavy bolter fired by a space marine at guardsmen will remove around 4.5 points of guardsmen per turn, or effectively 4, while a heavy bolter fired by a guardsman at space marines will remove around 4.8 points of marines per turn (meaning, about one per three turns). The difference is pretty negligible-- If said guardsman survives to fire a heavy bolter for a full three turns on a Space Marine who is just standing around outside of cover, they'll manage to kill on average one space marine over those three turns, while the Space Marine with a heavy bolter is pretty much guaranteed a kill per turn. In cover, the Marines have the advantage; the guardsman will need four turns on average to kill a marine in cover, the marine will still kill roughly one guardsman per turn. And so on.
Heavy bolters are still really kinda bad at anti-infantry work, regardless of if it's heavy or light infantry.
The difference between the two in terms of plasma is much more stark and meaningful, and thus why people take plasma for their squads far more often than heavy bolters (on vehicles, of course, heavy bolters are a dime a dozen, but that's another story).
That scenario is pretty rare, actually. At any rate, I'm factoring out who is shooting, since I'm looking at the entire field.
Each heavy bolter HIT removes 4.3 pts of naked marines and 2.2 pts of naked guardsmen. It gets worse quickly as soon as you give the marine gear or a jump pack. The heavy bolter only wounding the guardsmen on a 3+ just kills its viability vs any T3 horde really.
So I'm not exaggerating at all, actually. Heavy bolters remove marines about twice as fast as guardsmen.
Formosa wrote: .... why are your talking about rules again in the fluff forum..... why!!!!!
I just mentioned that a weapon that should fare relatively poorly vs marines does much better vs them than their intended targets. My intent was to contrast it with the alternate universe fluff. The rules are inseparable when discussing the gap in realities.
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Melissia wrote: Eh. My math was off a little bit because I was being lazy on a phone, and not using a calculator.
My point was the difference isn't that great compared to the difference between plasma shots. And heavy bolters are still kinda bad.
Martel, you complained about people packing plasma everywhere-- and I was explaining why they pack plasma everywhere and not something like a heavy bolter.
When various flavors of power armor stop being the majority of the playerbase, you'll stop seeing so much plasma. That or if they nerf plasma to hell and back by doing something drastic like doubling its price. Which may not be uncalled for, I suppose (then again, why would I care? None of my armies use a lot of plasma to begin with!).
I specifically said thats no longer the case. Plasma completely falls apart vs minus to hit xenos. Plasma is not the problem, its just salt in the wound when it does show up.
The background for marines in most depictions of them is not lined up with the table top because GW wants to sell more than one tactical squad per marine player. If marines played like they did in fluff you would likely not have more than a dozen of them on the board and that's bad for the bottom line.
Spacemarine was a little over the top with Captain Titus but I think that is a solid base line for explaining how and why the IOM needs them. A company spread across a world can turn things around real quick They can deploy far faster than any guard unit, are deadly enough to turn the tide of any given worlds problem, inspire what ever loyalist forces are left to fight harder and are dam hard to kill.
Assuming you can't nuke the planet from orbit because it has something valuable they are the best option if your pressed for time.
I like to think of the tabletop games as those 1-in-a-million times when the Astartes (or whomever) are caught out taking that game of nearly 50/50 odds with the hope of turning a tide, or at that crucial moment. Like the games themselves, they represent those rare times when ships get close enough, or a skirmish escalates, or what-have-you.
seriously, back during the 1920s generals claimed they'd be able to win wars via stratgic bombardment alone, WW2 proved them wrong. you NEED boots on the ground. you can't win a war just by bombing gak.
seriously, back during the 1920s generals claimed they'd be able to win wars via stratgic bombardment alone, WW2 proved them wrong. you NEED boots on the ground. you can't win a war just by bombing gak.
They STILL put a MASSIVE HOLE IN THE GROUND. Sometimes you want a FACTORY not a MASSIVE HOLE IN THE GROUND
You could've also quoted Korea, or Vietnam.
Also the anti space defenses of worlds seem quite heavy, leading to a WW1 esque situation that you can not extermunatus any Planet at your leasure.
seriously, back during the 1920s generals claimed they'd be able to win wars via stratgic bombardment alone, WW2 proved them wrong. you NEED boots on the ground. you can't win a war just by bombing gak.
seriously, back during the 1920s generals claimed they'd be able to win wars via stratgic bombardment alone, WW2 proved them wrong. you NEED boots on the ground. you can't win a war just by bombing gak.
No war has ever been won purely on the back of mass artillery and bombings. Lets say a world rebels for xyz reasons against the IOM. This world has productive factories, cities and other resources that are useful to the IOM. Should they.....
A. Destroy the entire planet from orbit so it is no longer habitable. The IOM is now down a useful planet and loses resources
B. Allow the rebellion to fester for years or longer while you get the behemoth that is the IG and IN together and ordinate a response. Said organizations are not only separate but are intentionally designed to not be to close at coordinating to prevent another large scale defection and therefore moving quickly is not in their wheel house.
C. Send in a fast moving and almost uniquely free range group of elite warriors to quickly disrupt said rebellion. Said warriors have such a dreaded reputation that worlds are known to throw down their arms and give up once the ship shows up in system. Should it come to a fight in any given localized area they will likely win through a frighting combo of speed, skill and durability. The rebellion if not outright crushed is disrupted while other forces are mustered and the planet is taken largely in tact.
Final thought, Martel I don't get why you play 40k, you hate most of the setting, you play an army that you constantly rail against and largely do nothing but crap on everything.
The loss of 50 marines to recapture a world that will produce 20,000 tanks and 10 million lasguns annually if it can continue production without faltering due to an escalating conflict, is probably a perfectly reasonable expense from the Imperial point of view.
HoundsofDemos wrote: This world has productive factories, cities and other resources that are useful to the IOM.
C. Send in a fast moving and almost uniquely free range group of elite warriors to quickly disrupt said rebellion. Said warriors have such a dreaded reputation that worlds are known to throw down their arms and give up once the ship shows up in system. Should it come to a fight in any given localized area they will likely win through a frighting combo of speed, skill and durability. The rebellion if not outright crushed is disrupted while other forces are mustered and the planet is taken largely in tact.
You can't have both of these be true at the same time. If a planet has sufficient population and industry that its fate is relevant to the Imperium then it is far too big for space marines to be relevant. A space marine chapter could deploy their full strength, kill an enemy with every single shot fired, and still barely make a dent in a planetary-scale army. And the hundreds of thousands of plasma guns, krak missiles, melta guns, artillery, etc, all capable of killing a space marine even if small arms fire can do literally nothing to them, will inflict catastrophic losses on the marines. Even with absurd marine-masturbation kill ratios straight out of the worst space marine fanfic the marines can't win that fight. The entire chapter dies, the rebellion takes minimal losses.
The only way the space marines can even hope to accomplish anything is if the rebellion has a single vulnerable target that is key to its entire existence. But in that case why do you need space marines? You're by definition talking about a situation where an orbital strike will only damage a negligible amount of real estate (since otherwise the war is too big for space marines to matter), so why send space marines when an Imperial Navy frigate can put a lance shot into the governor's palace and end the rebellion just as easily? A labor crew to rebuild a single building is much cheaper than a space marine strike force and even provides opportunities for the surviving former rebels to achieve a degree of redemption by being turned into construction servitors.
Which for me comes down to GW is very bad at numbers (most fictional settings are) and to never take table top stats into account when writing any kind of story. I agree that the over all number of marines should be much higher but over all I go with broad strokes.
A company cruiser showing up in orbit means things will go bad, since more is on the way and the threat of getting slammed from orbit from both drop pod and lance strikes is there. Likely many planets will need a full invasion but there are plenty examples in history of war falling apart after it's leaderships gets taken out.
A few quick drop pods hitting a rabbles leadership even if they put themselves in a fortified fortress or near a can't blow it from orbit area makes sense.
HoundsofDemos wrote: This world has productive factories, cities and other resources that are useful to the IOM.
C. Send in a fast moving and almost uniquely free range group of elite warriors to quickly disrupt said rebellion. Said warriors have such a dreaded reputation that worlds are known to throw down their arms and give up once the ship shows up in system. Should it come to a fight in any given localized area they will likely win through a frighting combo of speed, skill and durability. The rebellion if not outright crushed is disrupted while other forces are mustered and the planet is taken largely in tact.
You can't have both of these be true at the same time. If a planet has sufficient population and industry that its fate is relevant to the Imperium then it is far too big for space marines to be relevant. A space marine chapter could deploy their full strength, kill an enemy with every single shot fired, and still barely make a dent in a planetary-scale army. And the hundreds of thousands of plasma guns, krak missiles, melta guns, artillery, etc, all capable of killing a space marine even if small arms fire can do literally nothing to them, will inflict catastrophic losses on the marines. Even with absurd marine-masturbation kill ratios straight out of the worst space marine fanfic the marines can't win that fight. The entire chapter dies, the rebellion takes minimal losses.
The only way the space marines can even hope to accomplish anything is if the rebellion has a single vulnerable target that is key to its entire existence. But in that case why do you need space marines? You're by definition talking about a situation where an orbital strike will only damage a negligible amount of real estate (since otherwise the war is too big for space marines to matter), so why send space marines when an Imperial Navy frigate can put a lance shot into the governor's palace and end the rebellion just as easily? A labor crew to rebuild a single building is much cheaper than a space marine strike force and even provides opportunities for the surviving former rebels to achieve a degree of redemption by being turned into construction servitors.
yet again, space marines can move fast and disrupt a target with shock.
The intro video to Space Marine actually does a pretty good job at addressing this.
Let's go through it a moment, the entire bit seems to be some sort of stratigium planning thingy, it's questionable if it's supposed to be the admech or the greater Imperium, I suspect it's the Imperium as a whole however. They detect the Ork invasion in advance, identify the target as Graia, a forge world that produces a number of vital military supplies, The most important of which is the Warlord class Titan, which classes the planet as being of the highest straegic value.
with this lcassification then then run through a checklist of actions. the very FIRST thing is exterminatus. That's basicly the first question they ask. Presumably if they spot an Orc force invading an absolutely worthless world that contains NOTHING of value they'll happily exterminatus the WAAGH
this is dimissed because "strategic value absolute"
after that,m they ask about deploying capital weaponry "neigitve loss of manafacturing cpacitiy unacceptable" as they decide that capital scale weaponry would simply damage too much to be worth it.
Only after WMDs are dimissed to they discuss assmbling an Imperial Guard counter offense to liberate the planet. But after they decide that they realize it will take too long to assmble the force, given the absolute strategic value of the world. The Orks will pilfer too much (they wanted to salvage the warlords that where nearly fully built there) and they couldn't be allowed time to dig in.
they then ask "Escalate Arena Denial" to which the response is "affermative" followed by "execute request order, Adeptus Astartes Ultra"
so basicly the Ultramarines are thrown in specificly to pin the Orks in place and prevent the wholesale looting of the target well the imperial guard martials it's force. It's a fairly solid ideas as to how Marines would be used. a fast strike force.
Now obviously there needs to be some suspension of disbelif here, that's normal for any sci-fi partiuclarly for any wargame. screraming that Marines don't work. and refusing to accept the logical explinationms of how they work in the setting is silly. it's like going to a battletech forum and screaming that Mechs don't work. It doesn't make you apper clever, it just makes you look like a killjoy at best.
edit: Linking the space marine intro video in case someone reading this has never seen it. the Game has some issues but the intro's good fun
In my opinion, the only plausible use of Space Marines in the numbers they are presented with their organisation is for gunboat diplomacy. Space Marines have their own fleet. A small planet like Taros with a population that counts less then 50 million inhabitants with no orbital defense to speak off will be made compliant by a single ship and a 100 Space Marines. They have no force to fight them off. Their PDF is probably ridiculously tiny and spread over a large territory and poorly equipped with very little armored assets. Space Marines, in such a setting, are basically bullies. Very powerful warriors with very powerful weapons designed to fight ridiculously poor and ill trained opponents until they submit or simply bomb them from orbit until they are either all dead or compliant. The Imperium just needs its tithe, the rest is accessory. I guess this sort of role was better suited to the reformed, brain washed criminals and psycho that Space Marines used to be more then to the noble space knights and heroes of legend they have become. Flanderisation has rendered the fluff of 40K less and less coherant. This is especially true for Space Marines.
HoundsofDemos wrote: This world has productive factories, cities and other resources that are useful to the IOM.
C. Send in a fast moving and almost uniquely free range group of elite warriors to quickly disrupt said rebellion. Said warriors have such a dreaded reputation that worlds are known to throw down their arms and give up once the ship shows up in system. Should it come to a fight in any given localized area they will likely win through a frighting combo of speed, skill and durability. The rebellion if not outright crushed is disrupted while other forces are mustered and the planet is taken largely in tact.
You can't have both of these be true at the same time. If a planet has sufficient population and industry that its fate is relevant to the Imperium then it is far too big for space marines to be relevant. A space marine chapter could deploy their full strength, kill an enemy with every single shot fired, and still barely make a dent in a planetary-scale army.
You're imagining Space Marines show up and just bolter down a planet. That's not how the Space Marines operate. Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations, and then say "Bring your world within conformity of the Imperial fold, or be annihilated." (or something to that effect.) And the PDF that was thinking of escalating the violence sees that the Space Marines are pointing anti-starship weaponry at all their ground bases, and surrenders their leadership to be "processed and replaced", and then promises to not resist any longer. Job done.
And if the wavering PDF decides that they're going to fight, the Space Marines have orbital supremacy, and therefore aerial supremacy, and therefore can dictate the terms of any conventional battle outside of dense terrain. And if the PDF want to fight in dense terrain, then the Space Marines track communications traffic, find out where any command centers might be, and Drop/teleport into it, annihilating it. And they just keep doing that until the local PDF surrenders, or splinters into complete non-cohesion. Then the Marines deploy into those dense environments where they excel, and get to work.
And if the Space Marines can't be victorious using those tactics, then they pull apart the cohesion of the PDF as much as they can while securing/sabotaging defense weapons, and wait for the Guard to show up. And the Guard will slow-roll the world into submission.
But much of the time probably what happens is the first option. Space Marines show up and take control of major strategic assets, and most of the local PDF probably realize the seriousness of the situation, and give themselves/their commanders/their planetary governors up.
Insectum7 wrote: Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations.
That's the problem with your theory. To be plausible this step is absolutely critical. Any world that represent a major strategical asset that capturing it mostly intact is an absolute priority will have several key installation each of them defended well beyind the capacity of a 100 Space Marine to take even via a drop pod assault as these assault can only be conducted after dedicated anti-air defenses have been crippled. Beside some backwater colony or decaying world a planet will not be submit to a small group of Space Marines.
Insectum7 wrote: Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations.
That's the problem with your theory. To be plausible this step is absolutely critical. Any world that represent a major strategical asset that capturing it mostly intact is an absolute priority will have several key installation each of them defended well beyind the capacity of a 100 Space Marine to take even via a drop pod assault as these assault can only be conducted after dedicated anti-air defenses have been crippled. Beside some backwater colony or decaying world a planet will not be submit to a small group of Space Marines.
Marines have the equipment to bypass those defenses with Drop Pods or Boarding Torpedoes. But you don't have to take my word for it:
Insectum7 wrote: Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations.
That's the problem with your theory. To be plausible this step is absolutely critical. Any world that represent a major strategical asset that capturing it mostly intact is an absolute priority will have several key installation each of them defended well beyind the capacity of a 100 Space Marine to take even via a drop pod assault as these assault can only be conducted after dedicated anti-air defenses have been crippled. Beside some backwater colony or decaying world a planet will not be submit to a small group of Space Marines.
Marines have the equipment to bypass those defenses with Drop Pods or Boarding Torpedoes. But you don't have to take my word for it:
Spoiler:
It's what they do.
And sometime they can't as shown in the story about the Flesh Tearer being incapable of neutralising an anti-air defense network and needing Scions help to crack it open. Preventing drop pod assaults is one of the things that anti-air defense are built for. As your own piece of fluff mentions, Space Marines can risk drop pod assaults only when the anti-air defense of a planet are either friendly or weak.
Boarding action to get intel rather then destroy ship, recovering STC and such data or tech where an exterminates would destroy said data.
IG do the heavy lifting in terms of planetary defence etc. Spesh mahreens are like the elite special forces for key/clutch manouvers.
makes sense. If I needed intel on an enemy fleet to protect my black hips to ensure the big E keeps on rowing the boat would I send normal humans or super human power armoured jump pack assult unit in on a raid to get the intel? Fleets needs supplies. fleets need intel. You cant get those through planetary bombardment and dakka.
The only reason spesh marines exists is that the alternative: men of iron, turned against us. We'd just send AI superbots to get things done previously no?
Not fanboying up to IOM in any way but I can see the validity of spesh mahreensh.
Insectum7 wrote: Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations, and then say "Bring your world within conformity of the Imperial fold, or be annihilated."
And then the orbital defenses say "lol, that's cute" and blow the marine ship out of space. After all, let's not forget that we're talking about a major target here with the associated level of defenses. Otherwise space marines are redundant and you can send more common forces.
And if the wavering PDF decides that they're going to fight, the Space Marines have orbital supremacy, and therefore aerial supremacy, and therefore can dictate the terms of any conventional battle outside of dense terrain.
They really can't. They can opt out of any battle they don't like but they can't force the enemy to deploy in a way that is vulnerable to attack. If the enemy simply says "bring it on, we have 10 million defenders in this city" any attack is suicide. And sure, they could bomb the enemy from orbit but the premise here is that the planet is too vital to allow significant use of WMDs (otherwise just send in the Imperial Navy to deal with the problem).
then the Space Marines track communications traffic, find out where any command centers might be
This is easier said than done, unless the enemy is completely incompetent at communications security. Enemy HQs don't have a giant "shoot here" sign on them, and any competent enemy would know how easy it would be to create fake traffic that suggests a trap target is an important HQ. Space marines drop in, nuke goes off, the Imperium has just lost a non-trivial percentage of their entire supply of space marines.
Insectum7 wrote: Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations.
That's the problem with your theory. To be plausible this step is absolutely critical. Any world that represent a major strategical asset that capturing it mostly intact is an absolute priority will have several key installation each of them defended well beyind the capacity of a 100 Space Marine to take even via a drop pod assault as these assault can only be conducted after dedicated anti-air defenses have been crippled. Beside some backwater colony or decaying world a planet will not be submit to a small group of Space Marines.
Marines have the equipment to bypass those defenses with Drop Pods or Boarding Torpedoes. But you don't have to take my word for it:
Spoiler:
It's what they do.
And sometime they can't as shown in the story about the Flesh Tearer being incapable of neutralising an anti-air defense network and needing Scions help to crack it open. Preventing drop pod assaults is one of the things that anti-air defense are built for. As your own piece of fluff mentions, Space Marines can risk drop pod assaults only when the anti-air defense of a planet are either friendly or weak.
That's not what it says, read it again. Space Marines Pod to the surface if the orbiting system defenses are weak or under friendly control.referring. In the prior sentences it mentions using Drop Pods once the platforms are secure to insert ground troops. The lore has it that most of the time the Pods bypass normal anti-air defences, so they do.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not what it says, read it again. Space Marines Pod to the surface if the orbiting system defenses are weak or under friendly control.referring. In the prior sentences it mentions using Drop Pods once the platforms are secure to insert ground troops. The lore has it that most of the time the Pods bypass normal anti-air defences, so they do.
Do they? From my memory, anti-air defense is simply never mentionned neither are radar detection or anything like that. It seems that Drop Pods don't bypass anti-air defense as much as there is no anti-air defense at all despite the sheer stupidity of that fact, there is extensive use of aerial and space combat in the 40K univers, thus anti-air defense should be capital to any army of fortress.
Insectum7 wrote: Marines take over the orbital defenses or other key installations, and then say "Bring your world within conformity of the Imperial fold, or be annihilated."
And then the orbital defenses say "lol, that's cute" and blow the marine ship out of space. After all, let's not forget that we're talking about a major target here with the associated level of defenses. Otherwise space marines are redundant and you can send more common forces.
Apparently not, because that's not what the lore says. You're going to have to reconcile that yourself. Simply saying "that's not how it goes down, man!" Is pretty meaningless in the face of the reported Marine MO.
Sure, some systems will be more heavily defended and those will be harder to crack. But what's described is standard operating procedure, so that's what happens most of the time.
And if the wavering PDF decides that they're going to fight, the Space Marines have orbital supremacy, and therefore aerial supremacy, and therefore can dictate the terms of any conventional battle outside of dense terrain.
They really can't. They can opt out of any battle they don't like but they can't force the enemy to deploy in a way that is vulnerable to attack. If the enemy simply says "bring it on, we have 10 million defenders in this city" any attack is suicide. And sure, they could bomb the enemy from orbit but the premise here is that the planet is too vital to allow significant use of WMDs (otherwise just send in the Imperial Navy to deal with the problem).
You say they can't, but the lore suggests otherwise again. Planets are big, cities are small. If the PDF wants to concentrate in one place, the Marines can bombard them without much harm to anything else on the world, then have free reign over the rest of the planet. The situation will be contextual, so it's going to depend on what the value of the world is.
then the Space Marines track communications traffic, find out where any command centers might be
This is easier said than done, unless the enemy is completely incompetent at communications security. Enemy HQs don't have a giant "shoot here" sign on them, and any competent enemy would know how easy it would be to create fake traffic that suggests a trap target is an important HQ. Space marines drop in, nuke goes off, the Imperium has just lost a non-trivial percentage of their entire supply of space marines.
Maybe "easier said than done" for you. We don't know the sort of intelligence gathering a Strike Cruiser is capable of. It might be pretty straight forward for the Marines to just observe a planet for a few days and figure out where everything is.
Don't forget they also are regularly equipped with psychics, either.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not what it says, read it again. Space Marines Pod to the surface if the orbiting system defenses are weak or under friendly control.referring. In the prior sentences it mentions using Drop Pods once the platforms are secure to insert ground troops. The lore has it that most of the time the Pods bypass normal anti-air defences, so they do.
Do they? From my memory, anti-air defense is simply never mentionned neither are radar detection or anything like that. It seems that Drop Pods don't bypass anti-air defense as much as there is no anti-air defense at all despite the sheer stupidity of that fact, there is extensive use of aerial and space combat in the 40K univers, thus anti-air defense should be capital to any army of fortress.
That is the literal stated purpose of the Drop Pod, to come in too fast to track with air defenses. Maybe they add some extra tech to help that as well.
Certainly they have been caught from time to time in the lore, but again, we're talking the 90% use case for the pod.
We have seen examples of marines have ECM and ECCM built into power armour, admittedly that was alpha legion but do we just ignore this tech exists and could possibly be used for drop pods, dunno just spit balling here.
That is the literal stated purpose of the Drop Pod, to come in too fast to track with air defenses.
What's the point of anti-air defense if it can hit something like that? Plus, Drop Pod can't be that fast since they need to decelarate to make a landing. If they were faster then supersonic jets (which are the things anti-air in 40K is supposed to take out) the cargo of Space Marines would be reduce into juice by the impact.
Certainly they have been caught from time to time in the lore, but again, we're talking the 90% use case for the pod.
Which is yet ANOTHER thing about Space Marines that doesn't make sense.
That is the literal stated purpose of the Drop Pod, to come in too fast to track with air defenses.
What's the point of anti-air defense if it can hit something like that? Plus, Drop Pod can't be that fast since they need to decelarate to make a landing. If they were faster then supersonic jets (which are the things anti-air in 40K is supposed to take out) the cargo of Space Marines would be reduce into juice by the impact.
I believe they operate well beyond the speed of most aircraft, decelerate very quickly at the floor of their descent, and have some fancy tech to keep their payload safe.
Certainly they have been caught from time to time in the lore, but again, we're talking the 90% use case for the pod.
Which is yet ANOTHER thing about Space Marines that doesn't make sense.
What?
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Formosa wrote: We have seen examples of marines have ECM and ECCM built into power armour, admittedly that was alpha legion but do we just ignore this tech exists and could possibly be used for drop pods, dunno just spit balling here.
I believe they operate well beyond the speed of most aircraft, decelerate very quickly at the floor of their descent, and have some fancy tech to keep their payload safe.
Several problem there too. A quick decelaration for hypersonic speed to let say about a two hundred kilometers per hour would kill the payload too for the same reason then crashing at hypersonic speed would. Plus, I don't see why Drop Pods would have fancy tech that completely neuters anti-air defense but fighters, bombers and other vehicle of the sort couldn't have. Also consider that most anti-air tech is laser, a cheap and extremely common type of tech. It hits at the speed of light. No matter how fast Drop Pod travels, they can be destroyed easily by lascannon fire. You just need a battery of lascannon to blanket an area of the sky and destroy a large portion of the Drop Pod attempting to land. Let's also remember that anti-air defense inthe Imperium was certainly designed to destroy Drop Pod assault since the Horus Heresy made it necessary (without counting the fact that Tyranids also use an identical tactic once in a while and orks have something akin to it with Rocks, but larger scale).
What?
This thread has basically pointed out several glaring problems with Space Marines as a faction in 40K. They are barely above average when compared to other faction troops, and especially when compared to their elite. They are ridiculously few in numbers. Their most iconic strategy works pretty much only on weaken, distracted or incompetant enemies. They can't recover from casualtie quickly enough to survive murderous attrition rates. Creating new Space Marines is complicated. Geneseed is rare and fragile. Many assets of the Space Marines are nearly impossible to rebuild like Dreadnaught, Land Raiders, Terminator armors, etc.
I believe they operate well beyond the speed of most aircraft, decelerate very quickly at the floor of their descent, and have some fancy tech to keep their payload safe.
Several problem there too. A quick decelaration for hypersonic speed to let say about a two hundred kilometers per hour would kill the payload too for the same reason then crashing at hypersonic speed would. Plus, I don't see why Drop Pods would have fancy tech that completely neuters anti-air defense but fighters, bombers and other vehicle of the sort couldn't have. Also consider that most anti-air tech is laser, a cheap and extremely common type of tech. It hits at the speed of light. No matter how fast Drop Pod travels, they can be destroyed easily by lascannon fire. You just need a battery of lascannon to blanket an area of the sky and destroy a large portion of the Drop Pod attempting to land. Let's also remember that anti-air defense inthe Imperium was certainly designed to destroy Drop Pod assault since the Horus Heresy made it necessary (without counting the fact that Tyranids also use an identical tactic once in a while and orks have something akin to it with Rocks, but larger scale).
That's all well and good, except Drop Pods still work. Therefore they work. Maybe they invoke some sort of electronics scrambling that interferes with targeters. Maybe lasers have to charge up and pods come in too quick. Maybe Librarians cast a spell on them. Maybe they dump loads of chaff and decoys and take their chances. Maybe taking the orbital platforms allows the Marines to hack their systems and shut down defenses. Maybe Marines drop weaponized Pods that draw fire and then coordinate counter-battery fire from the Strike Cruiser. Maybe they can drop in at a lower speed in a difficult to detect stealth mode. Maybe Marines have any number of ways to help ensure those Pods get through. The lore says they work most of the time, therefore use your imagination to come up with a scenario that puts your troubled mind at ease. They work.
What?
This thread has basically pointed out several glaring problems with Space Marines as a faction in 40K. They are barely above average when compared to other faction troops, and especially when compared to their elite. They are ridiculously few in numbers. Their most iconic strategy works pretty much only on weaken, distracted or incompetant enemies. They can't recover from casualtie quickly enough to survive murderous attrition rates. Creating new Space Marines is complicated. Geneseed is rare and fragile. Many assets of the Space Marines are nearly impossible to rebuild like Dreadnaught, Land Raiders, Terminator armors, etc.
Then you're not trying to reason it out hard enough. Your letting yourself be stopped by "real-world-think", which even then is probably faulty.
Example: Do Navy Seals matter? Even though they can't take on an army of 1000000? They're obviously "ridiculosly few in numbers", their "most iconic strategy pretty much only works on weakened, distracted enemies" etc. I mean, those rafts can be spotted a mile away, and their armor is paper thin! . . .Or . . . maybe they have ways of being where they need to be, and doing what they have to do.
Insectum7 wrote: The lore says they work most of the time, therefore use your imagination to come up with a scenario that puts your troubled mind at ease. They work.
I'd rather scrap this drivel (AKA consider it as legends and propaganda internal to the setting) and develop lore that actually make some sense (Space Marines are an incresingly useless relic from the past mostly used for gunboat diplomacy and occasionaly supplement other forces). Space Marines are incredibly popular and easily have the most trashy lore of the already fairly weak lore of 40K. I wonder if "brand loyalty" isn't the main reason it's still defended as it descend into greater stupidity with time thanks to their flanderisation.
Then you're not trying to reason it out hard enough. Your letting yourself be stopped by "real-world-think", which even then is probably faulty.
What is this, church? If I must ignore everything I know about real world AND good world building tips to enjoy some piece of fluff, maybe that fluff isn't worth the paper on which it was printed.
Example: Do Navy Seals matter? Even though they can't take on an army of 1000000? They're obviously "ridiculosly few in numbers", their "most iconic strategy pretty much only works on weakened, distracted enemies" etc. I mean, those rafts can be spotted a mile away, and their armor is paper thin! . . .Or . . . maybe they have ways of being where they need to be, and doing what they have to do.
Do Navy SEALS have an operational specialty that cannot be reproduced by another force? Yes, they do have one unlike Space Marines. Are they used extensively for regular ground operation and attrition warfare? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Are they operating alone against a variety of foes winning wars all by themselves? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Are Navy SEALS mostly useful for conducting raids and sabotage against in a asymetrical warfare context? Yes, they are and they do lose a lot of efficency and freedom of use against competantly trained and equipped enemies. Are dead SEALS easy to replace? Yes, they are fairly easy to replace. Are SEALS more numerous in terms of proportion then Space Marines? Yes, by a factor of over 1000. It's time to put the SEALS and Space Marines comparison down. The only thing these forces have in common is the general knowledge in culture that both are suposed to be badass.
And don't forget. . . Space Wizards, yo.
...which every other faction have too? If only they were the only space wizards, or the best. that would help.
JNAProductions wrote: There are 1,000, give or take, Marine chapters. Each chapter has 1,000, give or take, Marines.
That's one million Marines.
Let's assume that's off by a factor of 10, so there are actually ten million Marines.
Cadia has (okay, HAD) a population of 850,000,000. Catachan has a mere 12,000,000 people. Mordia has 10,000,000,000+ people. Armageddon has 1,000,000,000+ people. And there are thousands or more of other planets that include Guardsmen. That's at least twelve billion people, just on four named planets. Let's assume that a mere one in twelve people are Guardsmen-the rest are children, the old and infirm, etc. etc. That's one billion Guardsmen. Or one hundred Guardsmen for every Marine, from just FOUR PLANETS.
How many Guardsmen is a Marine worth? Ten? Twenty? A hundred?
Because, even though the tabletop is not representative of the fluff fully, I think it's safe to say that I'd prefer a hundred Guardsmen for most engagements than one ordinary Space Marine. (And for every more powerful Marine, like Chapter Masters, Captains, Librarians, or others; there's a Scion or other type of advanced Guardsmen.)
Now, there are some times when force ABSOLUTELY has to be concentrated in a way Guardsmen cannot manage, but Marines can. But those engagements are, far as I can tell, rare, relatively speaking, compared to what else there is.
I'm not saying Marines are BAD. But I do question why they're considered SO important.
Well, they are supposed to be surgical tools / spec ops types who except at quickly striking a fortified enemy position, destroying and killing key targets, or storming an enemy ship or bunker. Their armor and physiology would give them the advantage in such conditions, as in order to kill one you'd need specialized or heavy weaponry, which are difficult to bring to bear in close quarters in such a short notice (per the fluff. The table top isn't accurate). Which would justify their low numbers.
The problem though is that GW also wants them to be battlefield soldiers who fight in conditions where the enemy can bring out the big guns, which is where everything breaks down and becomes nonsense.
What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.
Virtually nothing in 40K fluff withstands even the most cursory rational scrutiny. It was never written to be a hard sci-fi setting, or even a vaguely plausible military/tactical simulation. It wasn't even originally intended to provide a cogent or internally consistent setting for novels. It's pure fantasy, a hodgepodge of bits and pieces that seemed cool at the time, written by people with no background or interest in science, shoved together ad hoc to provide an excuse for painting miniatures and rolling dice.
Space Marine fluff is written from the PoV that Space Marines are awesome super-warriors. Literally nobody at GW cares that 1000 chapters of 1000 marines is too few for a galaxy-spanning empire. They matter in the setting because the fluff says they matter. You can either accept that as one of the setting's axioms (like the existence of the Warp, or the entirely biologically absurd Tyranids) or you can go find a different game with a setting that doesn't explode your suspension of disbelief.
But please just stop whining about it and trolling people who actually like the game and its setting into providing justifications for stuff you've already decided you don't accept, just so you can basically call them idiots for liking such terribad fluff. We all know 40K makes no sense. You're not proving your intellectual superiority by telling us over and over how stupid it is. Just bloody stop.
Duskweaver wrote: What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.
Virtually nothing in 40K fluff withstands even the most cursory rational scrutiny. It was never written to be a hard sci-fi setting, or even a vaguely plausible military/tactical simulation. It wasn't even originally intended to provide a cogent or internally consistent setting for novels. It's pure fantasy, a hodgepodge of bits and pieces that seemed cool at the time, written by people with no background or interest in science, shoved together ad hoc to provide an excuse for painting miniatures and rolling dice.
Space Marine fluff is written from the PoV that Space Marines are awesome super-warriors. Literally nobody at GW cares that 1000 chapters of 1000 marines is too few for a galaxy-spanning empire. They matter in the setting because the fluff says they matter. You can either accept that as one of the setting's axioms (like the existence of the Warp, or the entirely biologically absurd Tyranids) or you can go find a different game with a setting that doesn't explode your suspension of disbelief.
But please just stop whining about it and trolling people who actually like the game and its setting into providing justifications for stuff you've already decided you don't accept, just so you can basically call them idiots for liking such terribad fluff. We all know 40K makes no sense. You're not proving your intellectual superiority by telling us over and over how stupid it is. Just bloody stop.
Na man you just like to masturbate with Space Marine novels.
Imperial guard best and most original faction in the setting amiritte?!
Duskweaver wrote: What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.
If you're not even going to bother to read peoples' posts, why bother responding to them?
A dispute about what roles Marines actually take on in the lore, and their relative levels of importance in the greater Imperium, is a perfectly reasonable discussion.
Duskweaver wrote: What is the actual point of this thread? Because it just seems to be 24 pages of people who hate 40K fluff bitching and moaning about their precious suspension of disbelief.
If you're not even going to bother to read peoples' posts, why bother responding to them?
A dispute about what roles Marines actually take on in the lore, and their relative levels of importance in the greater Imperium, is a perfectly reasonable discussion.
The heresy happened, there is no real dispute whether or not marines are important in the lore or the imperium at large, its and irrefutable fact, however people are arguing over whether a chapter is relevant in the grand scheme of things, in the lore yes, to the people who are astartesphobes (wakka wakka) they are not because they decided they are not
Rome happened two thousand years ago, doesn't make the Roman Empire particularly important in modern times outside of a historical perspective.
Formosa wrote: there is no real dispute whether or not marines are important in the lore or the imperium at large its and irrefutable fact
It's not really irrefutable. The average Imperial citizen has never met and will never meet a Space Marine. Planets will go hundreds or thousands of years without seeing one, go through entire generations of war without one ever participating. So then, in modern lore, why do marines matter?
But then just as important a question is, as much as why do marines matter, also where do marines matter? And the answer is... in the perspective of the greater war machine of the Imperium, that's where they matter. They're a scalpel to carve important organs, so to speak, of the enemy's warhost. The hammer that smashes the enemy between them and the anvil of the Imperial Guard. They matter. How much they matter, and where they matter, and just as importantly where they do not matter, has been the majority of the discussion in this thread. Most battles involving the Imperium don't involve Space Marines, and many of these are quite important battles controllig the fates of entire planets. But where they appear, they make an impact that cannot be questioned, and turn the tides of war a little bit more in the favor of the Imperium.
What they are not, despite what the tabletop says, is an ever-present, numberless horde.
Rome happened two thousand years ago, doesn't make the Roman Empire particularly important in modern times outside of a historical perspective.
total horse crap and you know it, we still tell the stories of ancient rome, retell its legends and myths and still have vestiges of its culture within ours 2000 year on, but that is all a false equivalence anyway, rome falling was not caused by extra dimensional psychic monstrosities that laeft a scar on our psyches and fallen roman legionaries do not sally forth from Rome all the time to rampage and destroy all life all around them with literal nightmares in tow, if you are trying to claim the heresy is not THE most pivotal era in the entire setting, an eta entirely revolved around space marines, then you are a fool and just trying to troll, its an objective fact.
It's not really irrefutable.
Yes it is, you just want to refute it to be a contrarian.
The average Imperial citizen
Is taught about the emperors angels saving them from the evils of the arch enemy and laying low the serpent Horus before acending to his golden throne to protect humanity.
has never met and will never meet a Space Marine
And catholics have never met angels or jesus..... still have a massive impact on their lives eh.
Planets will go hundreds or thousands of years without seeing one
I think you mean thousands, but propaganda vids, the bible of 40k etc. teaches them all of the angels of the emperor.
go through entire generations of war without one ever participating
So imagine the existential dread when one of the literal angels of the emperor not only turns out to be real, but is standing right there beside you, or worse, you are told to fight one.....
So then the question is, as much as why do marines matter, also where do marines matter?
They matter before even a shot is fired to the rank and file of the imperium, they prove the emperor is not only real but his angels watch over us.
And the answer is... in the perspective of the greater war machine of the Imperium, that's where they matter.
That is not an answer
They're a scalpel to carve important organs, so to speak, of the enemy's warhost.
And so much more
The hammer that smashes the enemy between them and the anvil of the Imperial Guard
while representing a GOD to the people they fight alongside and a GODS vengeance to those they fight.
Most battles involving the Imperium don't involve Space Marines, and many of these are quite important battles controllig the fates of entire planets
Where as the battles the marines take part in decide the outcome of the entire UNIVERSE, the imperium without the marines cannot stop chaos, if chaos wins EVERY other race is dead.
and turn the tides of war a little bit more in the favor of the Imperium
I don't see any Roman Legionnairies around, Formosa. Fact is, outside of historical interest, they're mostly irrelevant in modern times. This isn't a dismissal of the importance of history, of course, but history is not everything, and to the average person going about their lives, the roman legion is little more than a curiosity at best.
Where as the battles the marines take part in decide the outcome of the entire UNIVERSE
Look, I understand that you feel strongly about this, but that doesn't mean that you should present such hilarious exaggerations as if they are fact. The average battle a Space Marine gets involved in does not determine the fate of the "entire universe". Do not be ridiculous.
Rome happened two thousand years ago, doesn't make the Roman Empire particularly important in modern times outside of a historical perspective.
and it's impact on european linguistics, and it's impact on religion (Rome is still the center of the largest Christian Church) and the fact that to this day Rome remains the capital of a prominant European nation. Dismissing Rome as purely a historical curiosity is inaccurate. Has the influence of Rome reduced considerably now? absolutely, but it's still a fairly important place.
I don't see any Roman Legionnairies around, Formosa. Fact is, outside of historical interest, they're mostly irrelevant in modern times. This isn't a dismissal of the importance of history, of course, but history is not everything, and to the average person going about their lives, the roman legion is little more than a curiosity at best.
Ah the ol "ignore everything else thats said in order to cherry pick" defence, how quaint, address my points please.
Look, I understand that you feel strongly about this
Nothing to do with feeling, facts do not care about feelings
but that doesn't mean that you should present such hilarious exaggerations as if they are fact
Every single major battle in the imperiums history has involved space marines, the most pivotal moments have revolved around space marines because they are the only ones able to take on these threats, grains of sand form a heap, these are facts, not exagerations.
The average battle a Space Marine gets involved in does not determine the fate of the "entire universe". Do not be ridiculous.
Strawman,
Actual statement
"Where as the battles the marines take part in decide the outcome of the entire UNIVERSE, the imperium without the marines cannot stop chaos, if chaos wins EVERY other race is dead. "
Look Mel, if you are not going to take the time to address all my points properly and just cherry pick, please do not bother to respond to me at all as it makes you seem disingenuous right from the get go.
Martel732 wrote: The legal system is heavily influenced by rome.
Not a bad point, Latin even to this day is considered a language of scholarship. used for legal terms, scientific dialogue etc.
My high school history teacher claimed it was their greatest contribution. That's how I remember that one.
More to the topic, I guess marines matter enough to fight about for 24 pages. I'm certain my view is colored by starting in 2nd ed. They were so bad, it was impossible to take any fluff seriously. We are kinda back there now.
well as I said the problem with Marines is everyone plays Marines.
This means marines are on TT more likely to encounter anti-Marine weapons then they likely do in the fluff. I mean sure every guard squad can have a plasmagun, and in TT they often do. but in the fluff I suspect this isn't the case. outside of Marines there are few armies where the best special weapon to deal with their line infantry (we're talking fluff not number crunching) is plasma. Tyranids and Orks for example are proably best dealt with, via a flamer, something that can thin large numbers of bodies as they get into close range (where they are, fluff wise, most dangerous)
It’s also understanding what a casualty is in 40k.
It’s not outright death. It’s simply a given warrior being out of action long enough for their recovery to fall outside of the game’s scope.
In the background, Marines are terrifyingly resilient. As covered before, they’re outright terror troops, with weapons to match. Every swing of a Chainsword is leaving bloody ruin behind it.
If you’re skilled and lucky enough, you might stab a Marine in the weaker armour joints, given them a few inches of straight silver. Shame he’ll barely blink.
Blast or cut an arm off, and he’s still going. Can you and yours say the same?
If you’re leaving Marines for Dead, you’re making a serious mistake. Sus-An membrane is one thing. But being able to naturally heal all but the most grievous wounds, and quickly, is quite another. You better have the time to go round and decapitate every single survivor. Otherwise they’re liable to recover, and come straight back at you.
Marines are a horrific opponent to face. Stronger, faster, tougher, better Armed than you. Also a lot better at War than you. Their discipline is second to none. They don’t panic, which means it’s harder to force a tactical error upon them.
All this factors into any unit effective. And Marines excel at all of them.
Once again, I refer you back to their legendary status within The Imperium. A mere myth to most Imperial Citizens, to those running a planet they are very, very real. Chances are Governors know the Angels of Death are absolutely real. And the surest way to never meet them face to face is to run a tight ship, and keep your nose clean.
See, when it comes to enforcing His Will, Marines aren’t a threat? They’re a Promise. A Promise of swift, unavoidable, unstoppable vengeance against those that would turn their coat and attempt to go rogue.
BrianDavion wrote: well as I said the problem with Marines is everyone plays Marines.
This means marines are on TT more likely to encounter anti-Marine weapons then they likely do in the fluff. I mean sure every guard squad can have a plasmagun, and in TT they often do. but in the fluff I suspect this isn't the case. outside of Marines there are few armies where the best special weapon to deal with their line infantry (we're talking fluff not number crunching) is plasma. Tyranids and Orks for example are proably best dealt with, via a flamer, something that can thin large numbers of bodies as they get into close range (where they are, fluff wise, most dangerous)
Problem being that EVERY gun is anti-marine if they are outside cover.
It’s not outright death. It’s simply a given warrior being out of action long enough for their recovery to fall outside of the game’s scope.
In the background, Marines are terrifyingly resilient. As covered before, they’re outright terror troops, with weapons to match. Every swing of a Chainsword is leaving bloody ruin behind it.
If you’re skilled and lucky enough, you might stab a Marine in the weaker armour joints, given them a few inches of straight silver. Shame he’ll barely blink.
Blast or cut an arm off, and he’s still going. Can you and yours say the same?
If you’re leaving Marines for Dead, you’re making a serious mistake. Sus-An membrane is one thing. But being able to naturally heal all but the most grievous wounds, and quickly, is quite another. You better have the time to go round and decapitate every single survivor. Otherwise they’re liable to recover, and come straight back at you.
Marines are a horrific opponent to face. Stronger, faster, tougher, better Armed than you. Also a lot better at War than you. Their discipline is second to none. They don’t panic, which means it’s harder to force a tactical error upon them.
All this factors into any unit effective. And Marines excel at all of them.
Once again, I refer you back to their legendary status within The Imperium. A mere myth to most Imperial Citizens, to those running a planet they are very, very real. Chances are Governors know the Angels of Death are absolutely real. And the surest way to never meet them face to face is to run a tight ship, and keep your nose clean.
See, when it comes to enforcing His Will, Marines aren’t a threat? They’re a Promise. A Promise of swift, unavoidable, unstoppable vengeance against those that would turn their coat and attempt to go rogue.
So why are there basically no rules to show any of this? Clowns get rules. Nids get rules. Drukhari get a zillion rules. Reality: enemy counter deploys their plasma equivalent weapons and marines go bye-bye. On the tabletop, that is. Or any weapon, as I mentioned up above.
Because background accurate Marines would be ridiculous?
Seriously. They’d made in-game as they are Custodes look like big girls blouses.
Your army would be a squad at most. You wouldn’t need characters.
No need for dedicated anti-tank Weapons. Just get a Marine close enough, force a hatch and lob in a Frag Grenade (which not having dainty hands, would be a big grenade) and reduce the crew to a fine, red, mist.
I mean, this is the Background sub-forum, is it not? To talk about in game performance and shortcomings, maybe the relevant sub-forum?
Seriously. They’d made in-game as they are Custodes look like big girls blouses.
Your army would be a squad at most. You wouldn’t need characters.
No need for dedicated anti-tank Weapons. Just get a Marine close enough, force a hatch and lob in a Frag Grenade (which not having dainty hands, would be a big grenade) and reduce the crew to a fine, red, mist.
I mean, this is the Background sub-forum, is it not? To talk about in game performance and shortcomings, maybe the relevant sub-forum?
It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff. If the fluff were different, ie more REASONABLE and less fanboy-spank-time, the gulf would be smaller and less of a massive pink elephant. Not are they not accurate, they are just about the worst army in the game by win rate. The two bottom dwellers, GK and BA ARE the bottom. Both power armor. Both based off astartes.
Insectum7 wrote: The lore says they work most of the time, therefore use your imagination to come up with a scenario that puts your troubled mind at ease. They work.
I'd rather scrap this drivel (AKA consider it as legends and propaganda internal to the setting) and develop lore that actually make some sense (Space Marines are an incresingly useless relic from the past mostly used for gunboat diplomacy and occasionaly supplement other forces). Space Marines are incredibly popular and easily have the most trashy lore of the already fairly weak lore of 40K. I wonder if "brand loyalty" isn't the main reason it's still defended as it descend into greater stupidity with time thanks to their flanderisation.
A: Small forces can defeat larger forces, especially if they are better trained, equipped, deployed, more capable, and backed by asymmetrical support like aerial/orbital supremacy. The right weapon in the right place at the right time is worth way more than sheer numbers. I don't understand why that's so difficult to grasp. A battalion of tanks is great, for example, except in the case that the enemy gets the drop with a couple A-10s or Apache's. And then there's not even a fight to be had, the tanks are just dead. Asymmetry in capability or technology can be completely devastating to greater numbers, and it doesn't take much to get that sort of advantage.
Then you're not trying to reason it out hard enough. Your letting yourself be stopped by "real-world-think", which even then is probably faulty.
What is this, church? If I must ignore everything I know about real world AND good world building tips to enjoy some piece of fluff, maybe that fluff isn't worth the paper on which it was printed.
B: It's a fictional context that has different rules/technologies/abilities than the one you are used to. And if you aren't willing to accept proposition A above, then even your "realistic" logic is flawed.
Example: Do Navy Seals matter? Even though they can't take on an army of 1000000? They're obviously "ridiculosly few in numbers", their "most iconic strategy pretty much only works on weakened, distracted enemies" etc. I mean, those rafts can be spotted a mile away, and their armor is paper thin! . . .Or . . . maybe they have ways of being where they need to be, and doing what they have to do.
Do Navy SEALS have an operational specialty that cannot be reproduced by another force? Yes, they do have one unlike Space Marines. Are they used extensively for regular ground operation and attrition warfare? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Are they operating alone against a variety of foes winning wars all by themselves? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Are Navy SEALS mostly useful for conducting raids and sabotage against in a asymetrical warfare context? Yes, they are and they do lose a lot of efficency and freedom of use against competantly trained and equipped enemies. Are dead SEALS easy to replace? Yes, they are fairly easy to replace. Are SEALS more numerous in terms of proportion then Space Marines? Yes, by a factor of over 1000. It's time to put the SEALS and Space Marines comparison down. The only thing these forces have in common is the general knowledge in culture that both are suposed to be badass.
C: I could go through this point by point, but you missed my actual argument, which is that the style of thinking that you're using to approach the issue is fundamentally flawed. You could approach SEALS with an attitude of "but that's impossible" and use the same argumentation you're using to deny the usefulness of having such a force. You're looking for (and making up) points of failure rather than opportunities for success.
Spoiler:
Do Navy SEALS have an operational specialty that cannot be reproduced by another force? Yes, they do have one unlike Space Marines. Incorrect. Space Marines are better at boarding and taking enemy ships and installations. They can also deploy via Drop Pods, unlike most other factions (and certainly faster), and teleportation.
Are they used extensively for regular ground operation and attrition warfare? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Marines don't routinely deploy into attrition settings as they did in the heresey. And even then, if it's an advantageous attrition maybe that's the way to go. Also, Marines have their own fleet of vehicles to engage in surface warfare, and are certainly better equipped for a conventional fight than SEALS.
Are they operating alone against a variety of foes winning wars all by themselves? No they don't, unlike Space Marines. Marines are more capable, and if necessary, sooo much more violent. If they have to level a city with orbital bombardment to accomplish a mission, they will do it. The rules of engagement in 40K are far more lax.
Are Navy SEALS mostly useful for conducting raids and sabotage against in a asymetrical warfare context? Yes, they are and they do lose a lot of efficency and freedom of use against competantly trained and equipped enemies. no comment
Are dead SEALS easy to replace? Yes, they are fairly easy to replace. Easier to replace than marines. Also easier to wound enough to take them permanently out of action.
Are SEALS more numerous in terms of proportion then Space Marines? Yes, by a factor of over 1000. Asymmetry + level of violence gives numbers a lot less value.
It's time to put the SEALS and Space Marines comparison down. The only thing these forces have in common is the general knowledge in culture that both are suposed to be badass.
To the point of the thread: Do seals matter even if they can't win wars? Do marines matter when they can?
...which every other faction have too? If only they were the only space wizards, or the best. that would help.
D: Actually, no. Not every faction has space wizards, and in at least some of the lore Librarians are among the more capable psykers in the galaxy. A Librarian will certainly be more capable than the local adepts in most cases. But "Space Wizards" is more a reminder again that the universe of 40K has a lot more options available to it than you are giving it credit for.
A: Small forces can defeat larger forces, especially if they are better trained, equipped, deployed, more capable, and backed by asymmetrical support like aerial/orbital supremacy. The right weapon in the right place at the right time is worth way more than sheer numbers. I don't understand why that's so difficult to grasp. A battalion of tanks is great, for example, except in the case that the enemy gets the drop with a couple A-10s or Apache's. And then there's not even a fight to be had, the tanks are just dead. Asymmetry in capability or technology can be completely devastating to greater numbers, and it doesn't take much to get that sort of advantage.
I agree, but Marines are none of those things according to the lore. They aren't elite enough to overwhelm their foes, neither are they overgunned compared to their opposition. They aren't especially fast and mobile either, especially when compared to Eldars, Tau, Necrons and Tyranids. They aren't even the fastest Imperial subfaction in terms of tactical deployment.
B: It's a fictional context that has different rules/technologies/abilities than the one you are used to. And if you aren't willing to accept proposition A above, then even your "realistic" logic is flawed.
My opinion isn't based on logic, it's based on the fluff which is filled with contradictions and internal inconsistencies. I didn't use logic to determine that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes would be incapable of destroying the Tau Empire, far from that, I used GW fluff material and that's just one example.
A: Small forces can defeat larger forces, especially if they are better trained, equipped, deployed, more capable, and backed by asymmetrical support like aerial/orbital supremacy. The right weapon in the right place at the right time is worth way more than sheer numbers. I don't understand why that's so difficult to grasp. A battalion of tanks is great, for example, except in the case that the enemy gets the drop with a couple A-10s or Apache's. And then there's not even a fight to be had, the tanks are just dead. Asymmetry in capability or technology can be completely devastating to greater numbers, and it doesn't take much to get that sort of advantage.
I agree, but Marines are none of those things according to the lore. They aren't elite enough to overwhelm their foes, neither are they overgunned compared to their opposition. They aren't especially fast and mobile either, especially when compared to Eldars, Tau, Necrons and Tyranids. They aren't even the fastest Imperial subfaction in terms of tactical deployment.
Perhaps, but now you're switching scenarios from anti-rebellion to various Xenos. Naturally the relationships between forces begin to shift. As for anti-rebellion duties, being the only starship in theatre/having taken control of orbital weapons platforms, Marines can definitely become overgunned in comparison to the opponent. However, against Xenos, most of the time marines still hold the distinction of being the best ship-to-ship fighters around iirc, according to Battlefleet Gothic.
As for fast and mobile. . . that's complicated. Necron ships are fast, but Necron armies tend to be slow. Tyranids don't usually operate on speed for deployment, but in great numbers instead. Eldar are super-fast, although possibly not as brutal as Marines. I'm not too familiar with Tau from a strategic/logistical lore standpoint.
I'd like to know what Imperial subfaction can deploy faster than Marines.
B: It's a fictional context that has different rules/technologies/abilities than the one you are used to. And if you aren't willing to accept proposition A above, then even your "realistic" logic is flawed.
My opinion isn't based on logic, it's based on the fluff which is filled with contradictions and internal inconsistencies. I didn't use logic to determine that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes would be incapable of destroying the Tau Empire, far from that, I used GW fluff material and that's just one example.
All opinions are based on some sort of logic. You're still extrapolating information from the lore with some sort of interpretation.
Nobody has made the assertion that the Astartes were capable of destroying the entire Tau Empire.
As for inconsistencies, there are certainly some. However it's also true that the galaxy is huge and scenarios can play out in a number of ways for all sorts of reasons. Many "inconsistencies" can just be the result of variables that are more ephemeral than "faction A has X, therefore auto-wins over faction B". The battle of Midway was won because a code was deciphered and used to turn the tables. That's a tiny thing from a materiel standpoint, but made a huge difference in outcome. So Drop Pods working in some scenarios, but not other scenarios becomes less of an inconsistency, and more of a "variable Y happened to be different in this case". The problem is people extrapolating that beyond those particular circumstances. You have to look at trends.
As opposed to genetically enhance, post-human killing machines psychically and surgically indoctrinated to have no emotions who”s most basic weapon is unthinkably horrific?
Perhaps, but now you're switching scenarios from anti-rebellion to various Xenos. Naturally the relationships between forces begin to shift. As for anti-rebellion duties, being the only starship in theatre/having taken control of orbital weapons platforms, Marines can definitely become overgunned in comparison to the opponent. However, against Xenos, most of the time marines still hold the distinction of being the best ship-to-ship fighters around iirc, according to Battlefleet Gothic.
As for fast and mobile. . . that's complicated. Necron ships are fast, but Necron armies tend to be slow. Tyranids don't usually operate on speed for deployment, but in great numbers instead. Eldar are super-fast, although possibly not as brutal as Marines. I'm not too familiar with Tau from a strategic/logistical lore standpoint.
Well, that and marines still have a better chance against Xenos than your average human. A human will most likely get slaughtered by Eldar due to how stupidly fast they are in terms of reaction speed and agility. A marine can at least keep up and have the combat experience and training to deal with it.
As opposed to genetically enhance, post-human killing machines psychically and surgically indoctrinated to have no emotions who”s most basic weapon is unthinkably horrific?
Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally?
Theyre both absurd to the point where i cant buy it even for a second.
Perhaps, but now you're switching scenarios from anti-rebellion to various Xenos. Naturally the relationships between forces begin to shift. As for anti-rebellion duties, being the only starship in theatre/having taken control of orbital weapons platforms, Marines can definitely become overgunned in comparison to the opponent. However, against Xenos, most of the time marines still hold the distinction of being the best ship-to-ship fighters around iirc, according to Battlefleet Gothic.
As for fast and mobile. . . that's complicated. Necron ships are fast, but Necron armies tend to be slow. Tyranids don't usually operate on speed for deployment, but in great numbers instead. Eldar are super-fast, although possibly not as brutal as Marines. I'm not too familiar with Tau from a strategic/logistical lore standpoint.
I largely agree with you that Space Marines are mostly used to quell rebellion before they can spread, but then only on planets with no powerful defenses (AKA no Hive World, Fortress World, Forge World or any planet with a good technological level and a population that exceeds the 500 million in population). That's why I presented them as a force whose main plausible use is for "gunboat diplomacy" (AKA intimidate people into complience by parking a big ship and maybe make a demonstration of force with it). Gunboat diplomacy only works when the faction using the gunboat in question is overwhelmingly more powerful then the one tagetted.
PS: Necron have a wide access to jetbikes, flyers including flying transports, the very best in teleportation tech, phase shifting machines that can pass through anything, etc. That's a lot of very fast deployment assets.
I'd like to know what Imperial subfaction can deploy faster than Marines.
Strategically, the Space Marines are the fastest deploying force since they have their own fleet and excellent astropaths. They can deploy to numerous warzone very quickly, but once they are there, their assets aren't really fast moving. A Rhino isn't much faster then a Chimera and isn't amphibious, their tanks are faster than Leman Russ who are known to be ponderous (except one or two varient who are just as fast), but aren't really fast either. Space Marine are fast runners and have a nearly infinite amount of stamina, but require regular supply in ammunition which slows them down. During any battle. Scions are tactically faster, but strategically slower. Their tanks are much faster then those of Space Marines and are better in rough terrain too. They also make more generous use of flying transports and while they might not run as fast as Space Marines, they don't need to reload their guns nor have need for a supply chain as complex as that of Marines. They can also risk aerial assaults more readily then Space Marines. This makes them significantly faster if more fragile.
[As for inconsistencies, there are certainly some. However it's also true that the galaxy is huge and scenarios can play out in a number of ways for all sorts of reasons. Many "inconsistencies" can just be the result of variables that are more ephemeral than "faction A has X, therefore auto-wins over faction B". The battle of Midway was won because a code was deciphered and used to turn the tables. That's a tiny thing from a materiel standpoint, but made a huge difference in outcome. So Drop Pods working in some scenarios, but not other scenarios becomes less of an inconsistency, and more of a "variable Y happened to be different in this case". The problem is people extrapolating that beyond those particular circumstances. You have to look at trends.
I never said that drop pods never worked, I only mentionned that they never worked in warzones where the enemy as decent anti-air assets. Most stories about Space Marines require the eney to be monstruously stupid or weak (sometimes both) for the story to make sense. That or dial the power of Space Marines up to a point in contradicts the fluff of the faction that is tranformed into punching bags for the protagonist.
As opposed to genetically enhance, post-human killing machines psychically and surgically indoctrinated to have no emotions who”s most basic weapon is unthinkably horrific?
Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally?
Theyre both absurd to the point where i cant buy it even for a second.
Then why did you ever collect a blood angels army? You don't like their rules, you dislike the fluff to the point you want massive changes to the setting and seem full of self loathing. What ever appealed to you about them that you dropped money on an army you hate?
Perhaps, but now you're switching scenarios from anti-rebellion to various Xenos. Naturally the relationships between forces begin to shift. As for anti-rebellion duties, being the only starship in theatre/having taken control of orbital weapons platforms, Marines can definitely become overgunned in comparison to the opponent. However, against Xenos, most of the time marines still hold the distinction of being the best ship-to-ship fighters around iirc, according to Battlefleet Gothic.
As for fast and mobile. . . that's complicated. Necron ships are fast, but Necron armies tend to be slow. Tyranids don't usually operate on speed for deployment, but in great numbers instead. Eldar are super-fast, although possibly not as brutal as Marines. I'm not too familiar with Tau from a strategic/logistical lore standpoint.
I largely agree with you that Space Marines are mostly used to quell rebellion before they can spread, but then only on planets with no powerful defenses (AKA no Hive World, Fortress World, Forge World or any planet with a good technological level and a population that exceeds the 500 million in population). That's why I presented them as a force whose main plausible use is for "gunboat diplomacy" (AKA intimidate people into complience by parking a big ship and maybe make a demonstration of force with it). Gunboat diplomacy only works when the faction using the gunboat in question is overwhelmingly more powerful then the one tagetted.
PS: Necron have a wide access to jetbikes, flyers including flying transports, the very best in teleportation tech, phase shifting machines that can pass through anything, etc. That's a lot of very fast deployment assets.
I'd like to know what Imperial subfaction can deploy faster than Marines.
Strategically, the Space Marines are the fastest deploying force since they have their own fleet and excellent astropaths. They can deploy to numerous warzone very quickly, but once they are there, their assets aren't really fast moving. A Rhino isn't much faster then a Chimera and isn't amphibious, their tanks are faster than Leman Russ who are known to be ponderous (except one or two varient who are just as fast), but aren't really fast either. Space Marine are fast runners and have a nearly infinite amount of stamina, but require regular supply in ammunition which slows them down. During any battle. Scions are tactically faster, but strategically slower. Their tanks are much faster then those of Space Marines and are better in rough terrain too. They also make more generous use of flying transports and while they might not run as fast as Space Marines, they don't need to reload their guns nor have need for a supply chain as complex as that of Marines. They can also risk aerial assaults more readily then Space Marines. This makes them significantly faster if more fragile.
[As for inconsistencies, there are certainly some. However it's also true that the galaxy is huge and scenarios can play out in a number of ways for all sorts of reasons. Many "inconsistencies" can just be the result of variables that are more ephemeral than "faction A has X, therefore auto-wins over faction B". The battle of Midway was won because a code was deciphered and used to turn the tables. That's a tiny thing from a materiel standpoint, but made a huge difference in outcome. So Drop Pods working in some scenarios, but not other scenarios becomes less of an inconsistency, and more of a "variable Y happened to be different in this case". The problem is people extrapolating that beyond those particular circumstances. You have to look at trends.
I never said that drop pods never worked, I only mentionned that they never worked in warzones where the enemy as decent anti-air assets. Most stories about Space Marines require the eney to be monstruously stupid or weak (sometimes both) for the story to make sense. That or dial the power of Space Marines up to a point in contradicts the fluff of the faction that is tranformed into punching bags for the protagonist.
Unfortunately I don't have the time to fully respond to this, however I will point out again that the specific purpose of the Drop Pod is to bypass anti-air defences. A world may have some very nice AA, but Pods will still be viable.
Pods + Teleportation changes the equation when it comes to Space Marine capability. If you can't accept that Pods have this ability, then you are seriously affecting what Space Marines can accomplish. Indefensible precision strikes change the game considerably.
There will certainly be circumstances where they don't work. But Pods are not reserved merely for misbehaving agro-worlds.
Formosa wrote: no other species in the galaxy can do what marines are designed to do as well as them (in the fluff), drop down, totally smash the enemies command structure and get out again
No other species maybe, but a Manticore barrage or lance strike from orbit can deal with the problem just fine.
Kap'n Krump wrote: One could make the same argument regarding special forces v. the rest of the armed forces. Why would we need a SEAL team when I could just toss a thousand or so enlisted sailors fresh out of boot at the problem?
Because in the real world we tend to be a bit hesitant to do things like sacrifice a million soldiers to take an objective, or to slaughter a million enemy civilians to kill one military leader. The Imperium has no such constraints, life is cheap and any enemy civilians killed in an artillery barrage only reduce the amount of work for the extermination camps once the war is over.
Lance batteries don't actually work necessarily at all against Greater Daemons because, as Magnus the Red demonstrated, Tzeentchites can just casually deflect orbital bombardment with ease. Likewise shooting most daemons is completely ineffective due to Daemons being memetically resistant to all forms of missile weapons on account of lacking the symbolism of melee. Without Grey Knights themselves the Imperium would have already fallen several times (such as the return of Angron) while also acting as an emergency force that has stopped numerous daemonic outbreaks in the century since the formation of the Great Rift alone. And that's just the Grey Knights - others like the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists have played similarly crucial roles. The point of Marines is that ultimately there are some threats that the mortal fodder of the Imperium isn't capable of defeating regardless of how many bodies you shove at it, barring some future assembly of high level psykers. Otherwise the Imperium depends upon the Astartes and Custodes as its only real answer to threats like the Beast, Daemons, or Necrons. They're also generally incredibly useful in naval engagements simply because nobody can really do anything about a squad of Terminators showing up right in their bridge and shooting everything. The better question is in why in the god damn does the Imperium artificially limit the numbers instead of mass producing marines and their armor as much as possible. Just a single squad of termiantors on every ship with a teleportarium would do wonders for the Imperial Navy's performance.
Strategically, the Space Marines are the fastest deploying force since they have their own fleet and excellent astropaths. They can deploy to numerous warzone very quickly, but once they are there, their assets aren't really fast moving. A Rhino isn't much faster then a Chimera and isn't amphibious, their tanks are faster than Leman Russ who are known to be ponderous (except one or two varient who are just as fast), but aren't really fast either. Space Marine are fast runners and have a nearly infinite amount of stamina, but require regular supply in ammunition which slows them down. During any battle. Scions are tactically faster, but strategically slower. Their tanks are much faster then those of Space Marines and are better in rough terrain too. They also make more generous use of flying transports and while they might not run as fast as Space Marines, they don't need to reload their guns nor have need for a supply chain as complex as that of Marines. They can also risk aerial assaults more readily then Space Marines. This makes them significantly faster if more fragile.
[As for inconsistencies, there are certainly some. However it's also true that the galaxy is huge and scenarios can play out in a number of ways for all sorts of reasons. Many "inconsistencies" can just be the result of variables that are more ephemeral than "faction A has X, therefore auto-wins over faction B". The battle of Midway was won because a code was deciphered and used to turn the tables. That's a tiny thing from a materiel standpoint, but made a huge difference in outcome. So Drop Pods working in some scenarios, but not other scenarios becomes less of an inconsistency, and more of a "variable Y happened to be different in this case". The problem is people extrapolating that beyond those particular circumstances. You have to look at trends.
I never said that drop pods never worked, I only mentionned that they never worked in warzones where the enemy as decent anti-air assets. Most stories about Space Marines require the eney to be monstruously stupid or weak (sometimes both) for the story to make sense. That or dial the power of Space Marines up to a point in contradicts the fluff of the faction that is tranformed into punching bags for the protagonist.
Unfortunately I don't have the time to fully respond to this, however I will point out again that the specific purpose of the Drop Pod is to bypass anti-air defences. A world may have some very nice AA, but Pods will still be viable.
Pods + Teleportation changes the equation when it comes to Space Marine capability. If you can't accept that Pods have this ability, then you are seriously affecting what Space Marines can accomplish. Indefensible precision strikes change the game considerably.
There will certainly be circumstances where they don't work. But Pods are not reserved merely for misbehaving agro-worlds.
Don't forget the importance of the air power. Thunderhawks are ridiculous as far as aircraft design goes and allows reliably around 30 elite infantry to immediately assault a location after being dumped out of what is essentially a flying tank able to reach hypersonic speeds. It's also the main advantage of marines, as their orbital supremacy and airpower allows them to just pick up and immediately jump to another part of the planet in no time at all - all while forgoing the need to sleep or even be supplied with food.
Martel732 wrote:It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff.
It involves the fluff just as much as it involves the rules. You can't say "the fluff's CLEARLY the one which is in the wrong!", because someone could quite easily say "the rules are CLEARLY in the wrong" instead.
Better to assume that they exist seperately to eachother.
If the fluff were different, ie more REASONABLE and less fanboy-spank-time, the gulf would be smaller and less of a massive pink elephant.
The problem is with you calling it "fanboy-spank" is that implies that it's not canon. The issue you're having is that what you're calling "fanboy-spank" is, in fact, canon.
Like it or lump it, but it IS canon. If you want to ignore the canon because you don't like it, or because muh realism (like you've been doing with plasma guns), that's okay, but just accept that it's your headcanon, not the actual lore.
Not are they not accurate, they are just about the worst army in the game by win rate. The two bottom dwellers, GK and BA ARE the bottom. Both power armor. Both based off astartes.
Martel, I implore you, can you actually make a point which doesn't involve the rules of the game? This is the *Background* forum. Any kind of point you're trying to make about Marines being useless, using sources from the actual game itself, is a flawed one.
I would also point out that the rules are monumentally stupid and make even less sense than the fluff, which actually does a semi-adequate job of explaining numerical disparity with necessarily power. It's the wonders of tabletop that gives us wonders like lasguns killing titans or Catachan oiled muscles being strong enough to shrug off .50 cal fire.
Formosa wrote: So imagine the existential dread when one of the literal angels of the emperor not only turns out to be real, but is standing right there beside you, or worse, you are told to fight one.....
They matter before even a shot is fired to the rank and file of the imperium, they prove the emperor is not only real but his angels watch over us.
Propaganda is a wonderful thing, yes. The marines might not be quite as powerful as some fans would like them to be, but to the average Imperial citizen or soldier who hears they're coming to help against the evil chaos/rebels/xenos it's a massive boost to morale. The PDF will fight harder when actual Angels of the Emperor are come to see them fight. Crumbling units will regroup and throw themself back in the fight so they won't have to be ashamed in front of the marines. Workers will work extra hard to provide necessary materials for victory so as to not let the marines down. Quick marine strikes on key positions will lead the way for the regular grunts to seize the advantage, emboldened by the display of carnage left in the wake of the marines who are already redeploying.
The marines are often a force multiplier instead of a "win all alone" card. It's just that fluff too often fails to mention exactly that and instead only focuses on the heroics of the manly marines.
As opposed to genetically enhance, post-human killing machines psychically and surgically indoctrinated to have no emotions who”s most basic weapon is unthinkably horrific?
Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally?
Theyre both absurd to the point where i cant buy it even for a second.
Hate to say it duder, but I think you're in the wrong hobby.
40k has always been dialled to 11. If it was a comic book character, it'd be Mean Angel, stuck on 4 3/4.
It's an inherently ludicrous setting. Always has been, and hopefully, always will be.
As opposed to genetically enhance, post-human killing machines psychically and surgically indoctrinated to have no emotions who”s most basic weapon is unthinkably horrific?
Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaally?
Theyre both absurd to the point where i cant buy it even for a second.
Then why did you ever collect a blood angels army? You don't like their rules, you dislike the fluff to the point you want massive changes to the setting and seem full of self loathing. What ever appealed to you about them that you dropped money on an army you hate?
Martel732 wrote:It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff.
It involves the fluff just as much as it involves the rules. You can't say "the fluff's CLEARLY the one which is in the wrong!", because someone could quite easily say "the rules are CLEARLY in the wrong" instead.
Better to assume that they exist seperately to eachother.
If the fluff were different, ie more REASONABLE and less fanboy-spank-time, the gulf would be smaller and less of a massive pink elephant.
The problem is with you calling it "fanboy-spank" is that implies that it's not canon. The issue you're having is that what you're calling "fanboy-spank" is, in fact, canon.
Like it or lump it, but it IS canon. If you want to ignore the canon because you don't like it, or because muh realism (like you've been doing with plasma guns), that's okay, but just accept that it's your headcanon, not the actual lore.
Not are they not accurate, they are just about the worst army in the game by win rate. The two bottom dwellers, GK and BA ARE the bottom. Both power armor. Both based off astartes.
Martel, I implore you, can you actually make a point which doesn't involve the rules of the game? This is the *Background* forum. Any kind of point you're trying to make about Marines being useless, using sources from the actual game itself, is a flawed one.
It's not useless, because I'm discussing the gap between the two. From what I've been told, even the fiction varies wildly.
Insectum7 wrote: Pod is to bypass anti-air defences. A world may have some very nice AA, but Pods will still be viable.
I presented a piece of fluff where AA defense prevented Drop Pod assault earlier on the thread. The Space Marines in question couldn't teleport since they didn't have Terminators. If all it takes is a Firestorm Nexus to prevent their assault, it isn't much.
Pods + Teleportation changes the equation when it comes to Space Marine capability. If you can't accept that Pods have this ability, then you are seriously affecting what Space Marines can accomplish. Indefensible precision strikes change the game considerably.
Do you have a piece of fluff in which Drop Pod assaults are specified to have bypassed an AA defense grid that wasn't already destroyed?
Martel732 wrote:It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff.
It involves the fluff just as much as it involves the rules. You can't say "the fluff's CLEARLY the one which is in the wrong!", because someone could quite easily say "the rules are CLEARLY in the wrong" instead.
Also the problem with his argument is that the fluff isn't even consistent in how ridiculous it is. Marines have been overwhelmed in strength by a single entity atht's physically weaker than a common human (spore mine dragging off a marine in one of the Dawn of War books) alongside the many feats of strength they have in other books.
This is why no one can ever agree on the actual strength of marines, because GW doesn't care enough to put a set canon out In one book a single marine can take on an army, in another book, one common human commissar with a chainsword and takes down two veteran khornate berserkers in one on one combat (though the first one he more used melee combat to position the marine for a meltagun blast).
On the issue of Drop-pods being susceptible to fire while descending, In the opening mission of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, a Drop-pod took anti-aircraft fire on final approach, killing all expect one of the passengers, who was severly wounded.
Insectum7 wrote: Pod is to bypass anti-air defences. A world may have some very nice AA, but Pods will still be viable.
I presented a piece of fluff where AA defense prevented Drop Pod assault earlier on the thread. The Space Marines in question couldn't teleport since they didn't have Terminators. If all it takes is a Firestorm Nexus to prevent their assault, it isn't much.
Pods + Teleportation changes the equation when it comes to Space Marine capability. If you can't accept that Pods have this ability, then you are seriously affecting what Space Marines can accomplish. Indefensible precision strikes change the game considerably.
Do you have a piece of fluff in which Drop Pod assaults are specified to have bypassed an AA defense grid that wasn't already destroyed?
Space Marine Codex 4th Ed.
"Drop Pods are capsules that are literally 'fired' at the battlezone and arrive so quickly it is impossible for enemy flak weapons to stop them."
Space Marine Codex 5th Ed.
"Such is the velocity of their approach there is little a foe can do to intercept Drop Pods once launched. . . "
Space Marine Codex 6th Ed.
copypasted from 5th Ed book.
Space Marine Codex 7th Ed.
"The speed of their descent is so great that the foe barely realize they are under attack before the Drop Pods crash down like a meteor storm."
Space Marine Codex 8th Ed.
Another copypaste from 5th.
Imperial Armor Volume 2
"Being small and travelling at high speed, Drop Pods are very difficult to hit with anti-aircraft fire and almost impossible to intercept with aircraft, should they even be close enough to react to a Drop Pod launch. This makes them a reliable method of delivering troops directly into battle. Conversely, a single Drop Pod is very difficult to detect and track, making them useful for inserting scout teams." -additionally-
"There are many different patterns, models and sizes of Drop Pod . . . Dedicated support weapon variant are used during planetstrike operations, as are cargo-carrying pods that allow squads fighting their way out of a drop zone to receive a much needed ammunition re-supply, even in the heat of battle."
It takes very fancy equipment or circumstances to fully defend against pods, and the way the books describe them in terms of the Space Marine MO makes gives the impression pods are used A LOT. If you're trying to get Space Marines to provide any special value to the Imperial armed forces, the capability of Drop Pods is absolutely key, imo. Pods can handle troop insertion and resupply, solving a lot of problems.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: On the issue of Drop-pods being susceptible to fire while descending, In the opening mission of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, a Drop-pod took anti-aircraft fire on final approach, killing all expect one of the passengers, who was severly wounded.
was that the same game that had a Librarian fall to Khorne worship?
The idea that something that is supposedly coming in so fast that it is difficult to hit with anti-aircraft batteries which fire lasers is also hard to detect and track is laughable.
It would be a giant sonic-booming fireball leaving a trail of flame and cloud directly to its landing point. Everyone for miles around would know the space marines had landed and where. You could also pinpoint the landing zone with seismometers detecting the impacts.
They are much larger than the Apollo command module and we could still track that on its descent to earth with radar whilst it was out of radio contact due to the ionisation of the atmosphere around it.
Martel732 wrote:It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff.
It involves the fluff just as much as it involves the rules. You can't say "the fluff's CLEARLY the one which is in the wrong!", because someone could quite easily say "the rules are CLEARLY in the wrong" instead.
Also the problem with his argument is that the fluff isn't even consistent in how ridiculous it is. Marines have been overwhelmed in strength by a single entity atht's physically weaker than a common human (spore mine dragging off a marine in one of the Dawn of War books) alongside the many feats of strength they have in other books.
This is why no one can ever agree on the actual strength of marines, because GW doesn't care enough to put a set canon out In one book a single marine can take on an army, in another book, one common human commissar with a chainsword and takes down two veteran khornate berserkers in one on one combat (though the first one he more used melee combat to position the marine for a meltagun blast).
I'm going to say that "inconsistency" is often a result of "narrative-fluke". The fact that 'thing X' happened once on record does not make that thing commonplace. Was the thing that dragged off a Space Marine really a Spore Mine? Was it one of the bigger spores? Was it something that might exist amid a Tyranid invasion but not a 'unit' with datasheet provided for game purposes? Was the marine in question just having a bad day?
It's important to note this goes both directions (or all directions). Not too long ago we had a thread where someone was claiming that because they read some instance where a Marine in a story kept firing his bolter after being cut in half (by a Carnifex or something), all Marines in-game should really have T5 3W (or whatever). When really that particular circumstance is already handled by the game as *particular marine makes all his saves/powerfist rolled a 1 to wound.* The spectacular doesn't directly translate to the overall trend.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: On the issue of Drop-pods being susceptible to fire while descending, In the opening mission of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, a Drop-pod took anti-aircraft fire on final approach, killing all expect one of the passengers, who was severly wounded.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The idea that something that is supposedly coming in so fast that it is difficult to hit with anti-aircraft batteries which fire lasers is also hard to detect and track is laughable.
It would be a giant sonic-booming fireball leaving a trail of flame and cloud directly to its landing point. Everyone for miles around would know the space marines had landed and where.
They are much larger than the Apollo command module and we could still track that on its descent to earth with radar whilst it was out of radio contact due to the ionisation of the atmosphere around it.
Eh, its plausible. If it moves fast enough it can get pretty far before targeting systems catch on and acquire targets, and during a battle it might be hard to tell apart artillery from pods.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The idea that something that is supposedly coming in so fast that it is difficult to hit with anti-aircraft batteries which fire lasers is also hard to detect and track is laughable.
It would be a giant sonic-booming fireball leaving a trail of flame and cloud directly to its landing point. Everyone for miles around would know the space marines had landed and where.
Short answer: TUBAD
Long answer: At the moment, effin cloud cover stops lasers in the real-world. All the marines would have to do is wait for a fog. Or, they possibly use all sorts of other tactics to make a successful drop, like dropping decoy pods, support pods, etc. and take their chances. There are solutions to be found for this problem, many of which I already mentioned earlier in the thread. Or, maybe the laser needs time to charge up, and by that point it's too late.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: On the issue of Drop-pods being susceptible to fire while descending, In the opening mission of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, a Drop-pod took anti-aircraft fire on final approach, killing all expect one of the passengers, who was severly wounded.
was that the same game that had a Librarian fall to Khorne worship?
Just saying..
Actually, no. Kyras's allegience to Khorne isn't revealed until the sequel, Dawn of War II: Retribution.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Then why did you ever collect a blood angels army? You don't like their rules, you dislike the fluff to the point you want massive changes to the setting and seem full of self loathing. What ever appealed to you about them that you dropped money on an army you hate?
It was 1994. I guess they seemed cool in 1994.
Why bring up 1994? It's canon now, and it's still cool now. Subjective, of course - so if you don't think it's cool, why endure through it? What appeals to you?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Martel, I implore you, can you actually make a point which doesn't involve the rules of the game? This is the *Background* forum. Any kind of point you're trying to make about Marines being useless, using sources from the actual game itself, is a flawed one.
It's not useless, because I'm discussing the gap between the two. From what I've been told, even the fiction varies wildly.
But why? What about the gap between the lore and game is relevant to this topic, the topic being "why do Marines matter in the context of the 40k Background" at all?
I wouldn't go into a 40k tactics discussion about "what role do the Space Marines fulfil on the tabletop" citing fluff, because that's not the right place to do it.
Yes, the fiction varies wildly, but a great deal of it is actually in favour of Marines being on the strong side, not the weak side.
epronovost wrote:
Insectum7 wrote: Pod is to bypass anti-air defences. A world may have some very nice AA, but Pods will still be viable.
I presented a piece of fluff where AA defense prevented Drop Pod assault earlier on the thread. The Space Marines in question couldn't teleport since they didn't have Terminators. If all it takes is a Firestorm Nexus to prevent their assault, it isn't much.
Pods + Teleportation changes the equation when it comes to Space Marine capability. If you can't accept that Pods have this ability, then you are seriously affecting what Space Marines can accomplish. Indefensible precision strikes change the game considerably.
Do you have a piece of fluff in which Drop Pod assaults are specified to have bypassed an AA defense grid that wasn't already destroyed?
In the Fall of Damnos novel, the Ultramarines 2nd Company deploy via drop pod against Necrons, who have AA in the form of their Pylons. These pylons are able to hit some pods (including the one Captain Sicarius is in), but the vast majority hit the ground fine.
Melissia wrote:Also the problem with his argument is that the fluff isn't even consistent in how ridiculous it is. Marines have been overwhelmed in strength by a single entity atht's physically weaker than a common human (spore mine dragging off a marine in one of the Dawn of War books) alongside the many feats of strength they have in other books.
This is why no one can ever agree on the actual strength of marines, because GW doesn't care enough to put a set canon out In one book a single marine can take on an army, in another book, one common human commissar with a chainsword and takes down two veteran khornate berserkers in one on one combat (though the first one he more used melee combat to position the marine for a meltagun blast).
Not wrong there - is it inconsistent, but I think it's better to go with that, than use the very flawed game mechanics.
As far as I'm concerned, if GW say "Space Marines are a useful and important part of the Imperium's war machine, and are an effective and powerful opponent on the battlefield", then I'll suspend my disbelief to trust in that.
Melissia wrote:Also, "gore mages" were a thing and worshiped Khorne.
Maybe it's just my headcanon, probably is, but I was under the impression that Khorne hated psykers (naturally gifted people who channel the warp through themselves), but was okay with sorcery (as in, the use of ritual to draw power from the Warp).
Or, he was okay with it, so long as the warp energy was used to encourage someone to fight using their skill, and not just hiding, being a coward, and using mindbullets.
epronovost wrote: In my opinion, the only plausible use of Space Marines in the numbers they are presented with their organisation is for gunboat diplomacy. Space Marines have their own fleet. A small planet like Taros with a population that counts less then 50 million inhabitants with no orbital defense to speak off will be made compliant by a single ship and a 100 Space Marines. They have no force to fight them off. Their PDF is probably ridiculously tiny and spread over a large territory and poorly equipped with very little armored assets. Space Marines, in such a setting, are basically bullies. Very powerful warriors with very powerful weapons designed to fight ridiculously poor and ill trained opponents until they submit or simply bomb them from orbit until they are either all dead or compliant. The Imperium just needs its tithe, the rest is accessory. I guess this sort of role was better suited to the reformed, brain washed criminals and psycho that Space Marines used to be more then to the noble space knights and heroes of legend they have become. Flanderisation has rendered the fluff of 40K less and less coherant. This is especially true for Space Marines.
Space Marines quite explicitly are primarily gunboat diplomacy, but this works because they have such a high threat level to almost any world in the Imperium. Drop pods canonically are capable of avoiding air defenses on the vast majority of worlds*. Thunderhawks and other Space Marine transport craft are also depicted as being heavily resistant to ground fire, requiring strong defenses to reliably shoot down. In addition, Marines maintain transport craft that can rapidly relocate armoured vehicles in a way that is out of reach for almost all other Imperial forces. Teleportation circumnavigates most defenses, and does not require Terminator armour (or even Marines at all) to do, although for whatever reason, orbit-to-surface teleporter attacks using power-armoured Marines are rare (teleporter attacks are common in Naval warfare in general though- all Imperial Navy and Marine capital ships can launch teleporter boarding attacks. There is possibly some issue with teleporting into atmosphere/onto planets specifically).
When all is said and done though, these are the true strength of Marines.
Marine Chapters can have phenomenally powerful fleets. During the height of the 12th Black Crusade- the Gothic War, Lord Admiral Ravensburg lead a fleet comprising most of the capital ships of Battlefleet Gothic- the strongest force he could muster. This fleet had 17 capital ships. The Ultramarines (admittedly a well-supplied First Founding Chapter, but not fleet based) have at least 8 active Battle Barges (one being a Gloriana class), and at least 17 strike cruisers operating around M41. This dwarfs Ravensburg's fleet at Gethsemane, and quite possibly is not even the full capital ship complement of the Ultramarines, only what is known. This is a fleet of huge size in 40k terms, and is almost certainly enough to defeat the orbital defences of all but the most vital of Imperial worlds (places like Ryza or Necromunda). With a fleet like this, it becomes less unlikely that the Ultramarines would defeat Hive Fleet Behemoth. Many fleet based Chapters will operate similar fleets, and the vast majority of Chapters have at least 2-3 Battle Barges. Space Marines have a huge concentration of naval power in 40k terms.
*Of course there are always special-snowflake planets in fluff snippets that counter a particular common tactic and require special countermeasures. Your Firestorm nexus planet is a good example, the bastion cities on Vigilus are another. For whatever reason, the defenses on these planets are not widely replicated, which suggests they have irreplaceable relic variant defenses.
Martel732 wrote:It is relevant, because the gulf between the two most definitely involves the fluff.
It involves the fluff just as much as it involves the rules. You can't say "the fluff's CLEARLY the one which is in the wrong!", because someone could quite easily say "the rules are CLEARLY in the wrong" instead.
Also the problem with his argument is that the fluff isn't even consistent in how ridiculous it is. Marines have been overwhelmed in strength by a single entity atht's physically weaker than a common human (spore mine dragging off a marine in one of the Dawn of War books) alongside the many feats of strength they have in other books.
This is why no one can ever agree on the actual strength of marines, because GW doesn't care enough to put a set canon out In one book a single marine can take on an army, in another book, one common human commissar with a chainsword and takes down two veteran khornate berserkers in one on one combat (though the first one he more used melee combat to position the marine for a meltagun blast).
I'm going to say that "inconsistency" is often a result of "narrative-fluke". The fact that 'thing X' happened once on record does not make that thing commonplace. Was the thing that dragged off a Space Marine really a Spore Mine? Was it one of the bigger spores? Was it something that might exist amid a Tyranid invasion but not a 'unit' with datasheet provided for game purposes? Was the marine in question just having a bad day?
It's important to note this goes both directions (or all directions). Not too long ago we had a thread where someone was claiming that because they read some instance where a Marine in a story kept firing his bolter after being cut in half (by a Carnifex or something), all Marines in-game should really have T5 3W (or whatever). When really that particular circumstance is already handled by the game as *particular marine makes all his saves/powerfist rolled a 1 to wound.* The spectacular doesn't directly translate to the overall trend.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: On the issue of Drop-pods being susceptible to fire while descending, In the opening mission of Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, a Drop-pod took anti-aircraft fire on final approach, killing all expect one of the passengers, who was severly wounded.
See "narrative fluke" above.
I would consider this more to be a problem of authors who don't read the codex fluff. Like every single time a space marine bleeds out even though that's literally supposed to be impossible due to instant formation of scar tissue making internal hemorrhaging impossible. IMO there really should be a 40k bible written at some point by GW simply to get authors to follow, and not just considering historical events either. Some inconsistency is expected in art, but 40k's about on the same tier as comic books (along with the 'quality' of the literature at times).
Wyzilla wrote: Like every single time a space marine bleeds out even though that's literally supposed to be impossible due to instant formation of scar tissue making internal hemorrhaging impossible.
Interesting thing to consider. If Marine clotting is in any way related to actual biology, they should still be able to bleed out, but only after sustaining such severe damage as to run out of whatever souped up clotting factor they produce. Seeing as fibrous tissue is essentially just disorganised collagen, that would likely require running out of immediate protein reserves, so would probably take a Marine being absolutely riddled to use up sufficient reserves trying to clot myriad wounds. It may partly explain the function of the sus-an trance as mobilising protein stores to replenish healing stock in the blood.
A similar thing can happen in humans where they use up all the clotting factors and start bleeding out- disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC) is a common mechanism that can cause this. Obviously Marines would have a much higher threshold for depleting clotting factors.
Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
More likely would be the work of Fabius Bile or a Dark Eldar Archon, considering the Dark Eldar in particular have quite a few marine specimens to experiment on over the millennia. They could also do the reverse, pumping a marine full of coagulant.
Wouldn't teaching rebels imperial weaknesses and giving them weapons and tactics be an Alpha Legion thing though? That seems to be something that would be part of their Modus Operandi.
Then again come to think of it, Bile and Dark Eldar would also fit the bill. They seem like the sort who would start a rebellion as a field test for weaponry or just to cause a bit of havoc while they work on something else.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
There *are* anti-coagulants powerful enough to keep an Astartes bleeding, but nearly all of them are either warp-based, of Dark Eldar design, or some kind of Tyranid bioweapon.
A standard anti-coagulant, probably anything we could manufacture on Earth, or what anyone could whip up on a non-Admech/Inquisitorial planet in 40k, is probably nowhere near strong enough to counter Larraman cells.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Would anti-coagulant work on a marine? That might could be an interesting story element. Like, they fight insurgents who somehow know enough about Marine biology to coat their bullets with space rat-poison or something, and they find out the Alpha Legion is behind it.
There *are* anti-coagulants powerful enough to keep an Astartes bleeding, but nearly all of them are either warp-based, of Dark Eldar design, or some kind of Tyranid bioweapon.
A standard anti-coagulant, probably anything we could manufacture on Earth, or what anyone could whip up on a non-Admech/Inquisitorial planet in 40k, is probably nowhere near strong enough to counter Larraman cells.
Ah, so its that strong then. Makes sense I guess. It would be really embarrassing if the Emperor's Finest could be bled out with a sharp stick dipped in bromadiolone
epronovost wrote: In my opinion, the only plausible use of Space Marines in the numbers they are presented with their organisation is for gunboat diplomacy. Space Marines have their own fleet. A small planet like Taros with a population that counts less then 50 million inhabitants with no orbital defense to speak off will be made compliant by a single ship and a 100 Space Marines. They have no force to fight them off. Their PDF is probably ridiculously tiny and spread over a large territory and poorly equipped with very little armored assets. Space Marines, in such a setting, are basically bullies. Very powerful warriors with very powerful weapons designed to fight ridiculously poor and ill trained opponents until they submit or simply bomb them from orbit until they are either all dead or compliant. The Imperium just needs its tithe, the rest is accessory. I guess this sort of role was better suited to the reformed, brain washed criminals and psycho that Space Marines used to be more then to the noble space knights and heroes of legend they have become. Flanderisation has rendered the fluff of 40K less and less coherant. This is especially true for Space Marines.
Space Marines quite explicitly are primarily gunboat diplomacy, but this works because they have such a high threat level to almost any world in the Imperium. Drop pods canonically are capable of avoiding air defenses on the vast majority of worlds*. Thunderhawks and other Space Marine transport craft are also depicted as being heavily resistant to ground fire, requiring strong defenses to reliably shoot down. In addition, Marines maintain transport craft that can rapidly relocate armoured vehicles in a way that is out of reach for almost all other Imperial forces. Teleportation circumnavigates most defenses, and does not require Terminator armour (or even Marines at all) to do, although for whatever reason, orbit-to-surface teleporter attacks using power-armoured Marines are rare (teleporter attacks are common in Naval warfare in general though- all Imperial Navy and Marine capital ships can launch teleporter boarding attacks. There is possibly some issue with teleporting into atmosphere/onto planets specifically).
When all is said and done though, these are the true strength of Marines.
Marine Chapters can have phenomenally powerful fleets. During the height of the 12th Black Crusade- the Gothic War, Lord Admiral Ravensburg lead a fleet comprising most of the capital ships of Battlefleet Gothic- the strongest force he could muster. This fleet had 17 capital ships. The Ultramarines (admittedly a well-supplied First Founding Chapter, but not fleet based) have at least 8 active Battle Barges (one being a Gloriana class), and at least 17 strike cruisers operating around M41. This dwarfs Ravensburg's fleet at Gethsemane, and quite possibly is not even the full capital ship complement of the Ultramarines, only what is known. This is a fleet of huge size in 40k terms, and is almost certainly enough to defeat the orbital defences of all but the most vital of Imperial worlds (places like Ryza or Necromunda). With a fleet like this, it becomes less unlikely that the Ultramarines would defeat Hive Fleet Behemoth. Many fleet based Chapters will operate similar fleets, and the vast majority of Chapters have at least 2-3 Battle Barges. Space Marines have a huge concentration of naval power in 40k terms.
*Of course there are always special-snowflake planets in fluff snippets that counter a particular common tactic and require special countermeasures. Your Firestorm nexus planet is a good example, the bastion cities on Vigilus are another. For whatever reason, the defenses on these planets are not widely replicated, which suggests they have irreplaceable relic variant defenses.
whats your source for the Ultramarines fleet numbers? because the last time they specified the Ultramarines fleet is was 3 battle barges, and 7 strike cruisers, (SM 6th edition codex)
Those fleet numbers are just stupid. Nobody is going to give a about a few tactical squads if the chapter has orders of magnitude more combat power in its battleships (complete with crews that vastly outnumber the 1000 marines). The only way space marines make sense is if the marines themselves have the majority of their combat power and their fleet is, while sufficient to attack a lightly defended planet and deploy troops, nowhere near enough to make them a major naval power.
Peregrine wrote: Those fleet numbers are just stupid. Nobody is going to give a about a few tactical squads if the chapter has orders of magnitude more combat power in its battleships (complete with crews that vastly outnumber the 1000 marines). The only way space marines make sense is if the marines themselves have the majority of their combat power and their fleet is, while sufficient to attack a lightly defended planet and deploy troops, nowhere near enough to make them a major naval power.
Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
My headcannon/futile wish is that all space marine numbers in fluff are x10. There's 10,000 marines in a chapter, a company has 10x as many squads, etc. Makes things work out pretty nicely.
epronovost wrote: In my opinion, the only plausible use of Space Marines in the numbers they are presented with their organisation is for gunboat diplomacy. Space Marines have their own fleet. A small planet like Taros with a population that counts less then 50 million inhabitants with no orbital defense to speak off will be made compliant by a single ship and a 100 Space Marines. They have no force to fight them off. Their PDF is probably ridiculously tiny and spread over a large territory and poorly equipped with very little armored assets. Space Marines, in such a setting, are basically bullies. Very powerful warriors with very powerful weapons designed to fight ridiculously poor and ill trained opponents until they submit or simply bomb them from orbit until they are either all dead or compliant. The Imperium just needs its tithe, the rest is accessory. I guess this sort of role was better suited to the reformed, brain washed criminals and psycho that Space Marines used to be more then to the noble space knights and heroes of legend they have become. Flanderisation has rendered the fluff of 40K less and less coherant. This is especially true for Space Marines.
Space Marines quite explicitly are primarily gunboat diplomacy, but this works because they have such a high threat level to almost any world in the Imperium. Drop pods canonically are capable of avoiding air defenses on the vast majority of worlds*. Thunderhawks and other Space Marine transport craft are also depicted as being heavily resistant to ground fire, requiring strong defenses to reliably shoot down. In addition, Marines maintain transport craft that can rapidly relocate armoured vehicles in a way that is out of reach for almost all other Imperial forces. Teleportation circumnavigates most defenses, and does not require Terminator armour (or even Marines at all) to do, although for whatever reason, orbit-to-surface teleporter attacks using power-armoured Marines are rare (teleporter attacks are common in Naval warfare in general though- all Imperial Navy and Marine capital ships can launch teleporter boarding attacks. There is possibly some issue with teleporting into atmosphere/onto planets specifically).
When all is said and done though, these are the true strength of Marines.
Marine Chapters can have phenomenally powerful fleets. During the height of the 12th Black Crusade- the Gothic War, Lord Admiral Ravensburg lead a fleet comprising most of the capital ships of Battlefleet Gothic- the strongest force he could muster. This fleet had 17 capital ships. The Ultramarines (admittedly a well-supplied First Founding Chapter, but not fleet based) have at least 8 active Battle Barges (one being a Gloriana class), and at least 17 strike cruisers operating around M41. This dwarfs Ravensburg's fleet at Gethsemane, and quite possibly is not even the full capital ship complement of the Ultramarines, only what is known. This is a fleet of huge size in 40k terms, and is almost certainly enough to defeat the orbital defences of all but the most vital of Imperial worlds (places like Ryza or Necromunda). With a fleet like this, it becomes less unlikely that the Ultramarines would defeat Hive Fleet Behemoth. Many fleet based Chapters will operate similar fleets, and the vast majority of Chapters have at least 2-3 Battle Barges. Space Marines have a huge concentration of naval power in 40k terms.
*Of course there are always special-snowflake planets in fluff snippets that counter a particular common tactic and require special countermeasures. Your Firestorm nexus planet is a good example, the bastion cities on Vigilus are another. For whatever reason, the defenses on these planets are not widely replicated, which suggests they have irreplaceable relic variant defenses.
whats your source for the Ultramarines fleet numbers? because the last time they specified the Ultramarines fleet is was 3 battle barges, and 7 strike cruisers, (SM 6th edition codex)
If you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
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Peregrine wrote: Those fleet numbers are just stupid. Nobody is going to give a about a few tactical squads if the chapter has orders of magnitude more combat power in its battleships (complete with crews that vastly outnumber the 1000 marines). The only way space marines make sense is if the marines themselves have the majority of their combat power and their fleet is, while sufficient to attack a lightly defended planet and deploy troops, nowhere near enough to make them a major naval power.
That is just the way it is with Marines- the same is true of the Imperial Guard compared to the Imperial Navy.
It was true in the Horus Heresy too- the combat prowess of the entire Imperial Fists Legion of ~100,000 Marines is nothing compared to their enormous fleet of over 100 capital ships, including extremely heavy examples like the Phalanx.
The primary reason Marines are not considered to upset the balance of power too much is that their 40k fleet assets are primarily geared to planetary assault and disabling orbital defences. Navy capital ships generally have an advantage in a pitched battle due to superior ship-to-ship weaponry like lances. However, someone posted the quote about Marines from BFG earlier, and it mentions how even in pitched battles Marine calital ships would still be fearsome opponents, and they are. Of course, most Chapters have 2-3 battle barges and about ten strike cruisers, which means their massed forces are significant, but not outmatching a massed sector fleet. Still, that would be a huge naval force for most engagements.
f you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
except GW has said that the ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges. a hard number in a codex. arguing they have more because novel authors invented their own names and thus we have 12 differant names for the ships is silly.
now I'm certainly willing to accept the possiability that those fleet numbers in the codex represent the ones on active duty. and the Ultramarine fleet is three times as big because strike cruisers are maintance intensive or something but the hard numbers are the hard numbers.
Insectum7 wrote: Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
That's like saying "this entire US navy carrier group is going to board a random fishing boat, seize it, and double their weapons". A space marine fleet with enough capital ships to outnumber an entire sector fleet is going to have enough combat power to effortlessly brush aside whatever orbital defenses exist around all but the most heavily defended planets. The 1000 marines of the chapter would be a mere afterthought next to that, just like nobody is talking about the importance of the armed security guards on a US navy carrier when the aircraft are vastly more powerful. And the simple fact here is that in the fluff the 1000 marines are presented as the core of the chapter with the chapter fleet in, at best, a supporting role.
Insectum7 wrote: Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
That's like saying "this entire US navy carrier group is going to board a random fishing boat, seize it, and double their weapons". A space marine fleet with enough capital ships to outnumber an entire sector fleet is going to have enough combat power to effortlessly brush aside whatever orbital defenses exist around all but the most heavily defended planets. The 1000 marines of the chapter would be a mere afterthought next to that, just like nobody is talking about the importance of the armed security guards on a US navy carrier when the aircraft are vastly more powerful. And the simple fact here is that in the fluff the 1000 marines are presented as the core of the chapter with the chapter fleet in, at best, a supporting role.
The Space Marines are presented as the core because the battles at the surface are the core of the game.
f you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
except GW has said that the ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges. a hard number in a codex. arguing they have more because novel authors invented their own names and thus we have 12 differant names for the ships is silly.
now I'm certainly willing to accept the possiability that those fleet numbers in the codex represent the ones on active duty. and the Ultramarine fleet is three times as big because strike cruisers are maintance intensive or something but the hard numbers are the hard numbers.
Actually, most of the named Battle barges in the Lexicanum list are from Codices or White Dwarfs, not novels.
I've found an image of the Chapter Organisation from the 6th ed Codex:
It lists three Battle barges (one of which is not even listed in the Lexicanum article!), but does not list the Macragge's Honour, a ship we know to be in the possession of the Ultramarines at this point, as Guilliman reinstates it as his headquarters shortly after this snapshot is dated (999 M41). So we know the Ultramarines to have at least one additional unlisted Battle barge. This somewhat calls into question the number listed.
As you mention, the number could simply represent active ships, with ships being refitted not listed. Other options could be that ships on extended duties away from the main fleet body (such as providing honour guards or whatnot) are excluded. A further option is that this may include the Chapter fleet reserve, but not ships assigned to specific Companies- each Company maintaining it's own vessel. This would be similar to how these organisational charts often show the Chaplains attached to Companies separately form the unassigned Chaplains in the Reclusiam (although this chart has no Reclusiam box, or any Chaplains at all bar Cassius, which is odd).
We can see the same vessels listed in the 3rd edition Codex in 745 M41 just prior to the 1st Tyrannic war (as shown by the date and the listing of Captain Invictus of the 1st Company):
However, in the years between the two, we know that at least one Battle barge not listed there fought in the 1st Tyrannic war from Battlefleet Gothic fluff- the Seditio Opprimere, and was refitted following the war into a unique format. This Battle barge is not listed in either Codex source. Note that the fluff was also published between the two Codices above, first in a White Dwarf in 2004, then in the BFG Compendium in 2010 (pg 58). So once again, we have the same list of three Battle barges being called into question by a contemporaneous vessel, from fluff published for the GW space-combat game no less. Two other different Battle barges are listed for the same White Dwarf article that the Seditio Opprimere first appeared in, but I do not have access to the article and cannot confirm any details about them.
Overall, I don't feel the Codex number is as irrevocable a piece of evidence as you do, considering the typical inconsistencies in the fluff and a number of other Ultramarines Battle Barges being listed in various sources.
Insectum7 wrote: Those Tac squads are going to board the orbital weapons platform, secure it, and then you'll have a second huge battery of weapons pointed at your PDF, doubling the orbital presence of the marines and the Strike Cruiser can move it's orbit to cover more area of the planet below.
That's like saying "this entire US navy carrier group is going to board a random fishing boat, seize it, and double their weapons". A space marine fleet with enough capital ships to outnumber an entire sector fleet is going to have enough combat power to effortlessly brush aside whatever orbital defenses exist around all but the most heavily defended planets. The 1000 marines of the chapter would be a mere afterthought next to that, just like nobody is talking about the importance of the armed security guards on a US navy carrier when the aircraft are vastly more powerful. And the simple fact here is that in the fluff the 1000 marines are presented as the core of the chapter with the chapter fleet in, at best, a supporting role.
A: The scenario I was putting forward was a single Strike Cruiser using some of its marine complement to take over a similarly armed defense station. If you assume the defense station is weaker than a Strike Cruiser, that's easy! We just take over multiple weaker stations, and still double our firepower. (Or whatever metric you desire). The actual point being that a few marines can take actions that are meaningful even in an engagement on the scale of starships.
B: Without marines, the types of action that the fleet can take is incredibly limited. The marines turn it into a swiss army knife that can perform a wide variety of tasks.
C: Yah. Space Marine fleet presence is a big deal. You didn't know this?
f you look on Lexicanum, you can see how many active battle barges and strike cruisers the Ultramarines have in use in various warzones. These are from a variety of different stories and sources, but without confirmation of destruction and operatimg around the same time? The options to square this circle are 1) there is a straight up canon conflict, 2) Ultramarines go through valuable and ihard-to-replace vessels at a ridiculous rate, or 3) they have a huge fleet, perhaps with much of it mothballed at any one time.
Any is valid, but personally I think the latter is more in keeping with the Ultramarine's status as a well supplied First Founding Chapter with a known selection of relic ships.
except GW has said that the ultramarines have 3 Battle Barges. a hard number in a codex. arguing they have more because novel authors invented their own names and thus we have 12 differant names for the ships is silly.
now I'm certainly willing to accept the possiability that those fleet numbers in the codex represent the ones on active duty. and the Ultramarine fleet is three times as big because strike cruisers are maintance intensive or something but the hard numbers are the hard numbers.
Actually, most of the named Battle barges in the Lexicanum list are from Codices or White Dwarfs, not novels.
I've found an image of the Chapter Organisation from the 6th ed Codex:
[spoiler]
It lists three Battle barges (one of which is not even listed in the Lexicanum article!), but does not list the Macragge's Honour, a ship we know to be in the possession of the Ultramarines at this point, as Guilliman reinstates it as his headquarters shortly after this snapshot is dated (999 M41). So we know the Ultramarines to have at least one additional unlisted Battle barge. This somewhat calls into question the number listed.
As you mention, the number could simply represent active ships, with ships being refitted not listed. Other options could be that ships on extended duties away from the main fleet body (such as providing honour guards or whatnot) are excluded. A further option is that this may include the Chapter fleet reserve, but not ships assigned to specific Companies- each Company maintaining it's own vessel. This would be similar to how these organisational charts often show the Chaplains attached to Companies separately form the unassigned Chaplains in the Reclusiam (although this chart has no Reclusiam box, or any Chaplains at all bar Cassius, which is odd).
We can see the same vessels listed in the 3rd edition Codex in 745 M41 just prior to the 1st Tyrannic war (as shown by the date and the listing of Captain Invictus of the 1st Company):
However, in the years between the two, we know that at least one Battle barge not listed there fought in the 1st Tyrannic war from Battlefleet Gothic fluff- the Seditio Opprimere, and was refitted following the war into a unique format. This Battle barge is not listed in either Codex source. Note that the fluff was also published between the two Codices above, first in a White Dwarf in 2004, then in the BFG Compendium in 2010 (pg 58). So once again, we have the same list of three Battle barges being called into question by a contemporaneous vessel, from fluff published for the GW space-combat game no less. Two other different Battle barges are listed for the same White Dwarf article that the Seditio Opprimere first appeared in, but I do not have access to the article and cannot confirm any details about them.
Overall, I don't feel the Codex number is as irrevocable a piece of evidence as you do, considering the typical inconsistencies in the fluff and a number of other Ultramarines Battle Barges being listed in various sources.[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
it's a exact sum of numbers. which to my mind is proably more reliable then counting ship names that pop up, as I find ships often are named onced and never used again. it's due to the lack of a detailed naval TO&E for a marine chapter. which puts us in a strange spot of "6 named vessels but only supposed to have 3" the best answer is that the ultramarines possses a number of strike cruisers and battlebarges in excess of the number the codex quotes, but they only have the manpower and resources to MAN 3 barges and 8 strike cruisers. the others are dry docked. for maintinace reasons the ships are rotated in duty well others undergo maintance etc to allow the Ultramarines navy to undergo a far greater level of activity then would otherwise be allowed. (the kind of operations space Marines naval assists undertake as a matter of course just so happen to be the types of operations that are hardest on equipment. high speed burns into a planetary orbit to insert troops. boarding actions etc. these things are going to stress components fast)
nareik wrote: What if UM have fleet assets outside of 'fleet command'?
I personally think this is likely, and the most elegant solution to the canon conflict. Essentially, if we treat the Fleet Command as a Chapter fleet reserve of 3 Battle barges and 8 Strike cruisers, use an additional Battle barge as the personal ship for the Chapter Master and headquarters staff, 3 battle barges assigned to companies with the other 7 companies being assigned a Strike cruiser, we reach a combined fleet strength of 7 Battle barges and 15 Strike cruisers. A number suspiciously similar to the number of listed Ultramarines vessels in active service.
The Fleet command would still be the single greatest concentration of fleet power within the Chapter, but not the only source.
The whole "3 Battle Barges" thing in BFG was given for an average Space Marine Chapter. I.E. your run of the mill Chapter that is mentioned once by GW and never heard from again. Those with the names of the former Legions probably get away with skirting the limits more, so long as they don't get too blatant about it.
The UM Chapter may have many more former Legion space assets but officially only have some on active duty, with the rest mothballed. Is that violating the Codex in spirit if not in letter? Possibly. Is it hypocritical for the UM to be violating the Codex? Sure. But like so much within the Imperium, what you can get away with depends more on your political standing than strictly speaking any letter of the law.
Iracundus wrote: The whole "3 Battle Barges" thing in BFG was given for an average Space Marine Chapter. I.E. your run of the mill Chapter that is mentioned once by GW and never heard from again. Those with the names of the former Legions probably get away with skirting the limits more, so long as they don't get too blatant about it.
The UM Chapter may have many more former Legion space assets but officially only have some on active duty, with the rest mothballed. Is that violating the Codex in spirit if not in letter? Possibly. Is it hypocritical for the UM to be violating the Codex? Sure. But like so much within the Imperium, what you can get away with depends more on your political standing than strictly speaking any letter of the law.
no the 3 battle barges is from codex space marines. the blood angels are listed as only having 2.
we may disagree, but my point is the lexnicium "THEY HAVE A DOZEN" statement is at odds with the actual lore. offically according to GW the ultramarines fleet includes 3 battle barges
Melissia wrote: Lexicanum lists them as having seven, not a dozen, citing its source as "Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition)".
Specifically it lists the following at the start of the Indomitus Crusade:
1 Gloriana Class Battleship
3 Star Forts
7 Battle Barges
15 Strike Cruisers
20 Rapid Strike vessels
75 Thunderhawks
Because yes, the Ultramarines do defy the codex astartes.
yes and I'm asking for a citation. Lexnicium prides itself on taking only the lore as presented so let's see the cite. give me a soruce for that figure. it should be easy eneugh.
... is your mouse broken, can you not click on the citation link? Or is your scroll bar broken that you can't go to source [62b] at the bottom?
Lexicanum clearly cites Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition), page 13. This kind of laziness is kinda rude, actually.
It's one thing to say their citation is wrong (I haven't checked it myself, I don't have a copy of the book on me), but like claiming they don't cite one when they obviously do is just... ugh.
Lexicanum lists 9 Battle Barges as "in service", but one of it's sources (SM Codex 5th Edition pg.17) lists Fleet Command as 3 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers. (same in 3rd Ed Codex)
SM Codex 8th edition pg.13 doesn't appear to list any fleet assets, so I'm not sure why it's a citation for that purpose.
Lexicanum also cites a White Dwarf (no 288) for a number of the other assets. I can't check that as I don't have it.
It is true that some assets may not be listed under "Fleet Command". I'd like to get details from the other source material on that, though.
Macragge's Honour (the Gloriana Class Battleship mentioned above, which is effectively Roboute's battle barge, which we can confirm is canon though I would not classify it as a battle barge per se)
Seditio Opprimere (was nearly lost during Behemoth, rebuilt on Calth, mentioned in the BFG Compendium, assumed to be functional again)
Severian (mentioned in like a one-liner in C:SM 3rd edition, assumed functional as it was not mentioned as being destroyed)
Octavius (mentioned C:SM 5th and Tyranids 2nd as being used by Calgar in a campaign to cleanse Genestealers, assumed functional)
Spear of Macragge (mentioned in C:SM 5th as belonging to the UM's best tank commander, currently Chronus, assumed functional)
Adsidus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Aeternus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Mare Nostrum (Flagship of the 8th Company, mentioned in the novel Of Honour and Iron, assumed functional)
Laurels of Victory (Took part in the War of Beasts, mentioned in Vigilus Ablaze, assumed functional as it was mentioned to withdraw from combat).
Bear in mind that GW doesn't really keep a tight reign on this stuff, and a lot of this is from novels rather than codices.
Macragge's Honour (the Gloriana Class Battleship mentioned above, which is effectively Roboute's battle barge, which we can confirm is canon though I would not classify it as a battle barge per se)
Seditio Opprimere (was nearly lost during Behemoth, rebuilt on Calth, mentioned in the BFG Compendium, assumed to be functional again)
Severian (mentioned in like a one-liner in C:SM 3rd edition, assumed functional as it was not mentioned as being destroyed)
Octavius (mentioned C:SM 5th and Tyranids 2nd as being used by Calgar in a campaign to cleanse Genestealers, assumed functional)
Spear of Macragge (mentioned in C:SM 5th as belonging to the UM's best tank commander, currently Chronus, assumed functional)
Adsidus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Aeternus (likely given a one-liner mention in WD 288)
Mare Nostrum (Flagship of the 8th Company, mentioned in the novel Of Honour and Iron, assumed functional)
Laurels of Victory (Took part in the War of Beasts, mentioned in Vigilus Ablaze, assumed functional as it was mentioned to withdraw from combat).
Bear in mind that GW doesn't really keep a tight reign on this stuff, and a lot of this is from novels rather than codices.
right which is the thing, we hgave some names sure but the fleet strength numbers as reported as "3 battle barges" hence the they have 6, has no basis in canon. yes I agree GW is sloppy with their naval assests (my hope is that when the new BFG happens they'll get less sloppy and start paying attention to that) but as it stands? ...
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Melissia wrote: ... is your mouse broken, can you not click on the citation link? Or is your scroll bar broken that you can't go to source [62b] at the bottom?
Lexicanum clearly cites Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition), page 13. This kind of laziness is kinda rude, actually.
.
that citation is for the tavle of orgionization that completely lacks fleet numbers I suspect GW realized that by giving fleet listings they where writing themselves into a corner they didn't want to. and will HAPPILY accept an "unknown" listing for their fleet size. but the last time we where given precise numbers? yeah it was smaller.
I like to think there are just lots of little threads of canon. Similar but not always identical. This makes 40k Thematically fairly cohesive, but the details may vary a little depending on the story (and the medium used to tell the story). We all take for granted video games can have a slightly different canon, and I extend that onto other forms of media. As such Codex 40k is a slightly different place to novel 40k, which in turn is different to white dwarf 40k or Warhammer community 40k and so on.
Discovering 40k is a little like reading the skean; general trends can be seen, but often the details of the strands can vary.
Regardless of the warbling over fleet size, what we do know of is that The Dark Angels and Space Wolves both have 8 battle barges in their chapters, and the Unforgiven probably follow the same fleet structure as their parent as perfect little clones (barring the Angels of Absolution).
I still really don't see what your point is. GW changes its "canon" all the time when it suits them. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, Ultramarines having eight battle barges isn't actually that big a deal. That puts the Ultramarines as having more resources than most Chapters, but still a mere fraction of the forces the Imperial Navy has in any given segmentum, and really any sector they care enough about to defend for that matter. So... okay? Hasn't "ultramarines have an abundance of resources compared to your average chapter" been canon since at least 3rd or fourth edition, though? And with Guilliman returned, this has only really increased.
Melissia wrote: I still really don't see what your point is. GW changes its "canon" all the time when it suits them. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, Ultramarines having eight battle barges isn't actually that big a deal. That puts the Ultramarines as having more resources than most Chapters, but still a mere fraction of the forces the Imperial Navy has in any given segmentum, and really any sector they care enough about to defend for that matter. So... okay? Hasn't "ultramarines have an abundance of resources compared to your average chapter" been canon since at least 3rd or fourth edition, though? And with Guilliman returned, this has only really increased.
I don't eaither, just people are throwing that number out like it's some sort of fact when it isn't.
I listed exactly where they got the idea from and the sources of them. Ultimately, if you aren't interested in even trying to understand the logic behind "these ships were listed without the lore saying they were lost or destroyed, so they must still be functional", there's not really much else to be said to you.
nareik wrote: I like to think there are just lots of little threads of canon. Similar but not always identical. This makes 40k Thematically fairly cohesive, but the details may vary a little depending on the story (and the medium used to tell the story). We all take for granted video games can have a slightly different canon, and I extend that onto other forms of media. As such Codex 40k is a slightly different place to novel 40k, which in turn is different to white dwarf 40k or Warhammer community 40k and so on.
Discovering 40k is a little like reading the skean; general trends can be seen, but often the details of the strands can vary.
I mean, if you listen to the last Voxcast episode with their IP guy he actually goes into this. It's an entire galaxy based on WW1 level communications 90% of the time. The odds of anyone knowing something for a fact is likely because they witnessed it and that will die with them. Assuming the warp doesn't get involved to make them think the thing happened.
It was pretty funny to me given how seriously people try and take the lore tidbits, mean while the setting is just sitting there wallowing in it's own contradiction simultaneously yelling "World builders go home" and "World builders go nuts".
40k isn't a story, it's barely a setting, it's a grimdark playground. And I'm pretty happy some of their folks are into that still. I will admit, the recent story focus had me worried on that, but in reading the stuff it makes the level of uncertainty perfectly blatant.
nareik wrote: I like to think there are just lots of little threads of canon. Similar but not always identical. This makes 40k Thematically fairly cohesive, but the details may vary a little depending on the story (and the medium used to tell the story). We all take for granted video games can have a slightly different canon, and I extend that onto other forms of media. As such Codex 40k is a slightly different place to novel 40k, which in turn is different to white dwarf 40k or Warhammer community 40k and so on.
Discovering 40k is a little like reading the skean; general trends can be seen, but often the details of the strands can vary.
I mean, if you listen to the last Voxcast episode with their IP guy he actually goes into this. It's an entire galaxy based on WW1 level communications 90% of the time. The odds of anyone knowing something for a fact is likely because they witnessed it and that will die with them. Assuming the warp doesn't get involved to make them think the thing happened.
It was pretty funny to me given how seriously people try and take the lore tidbits, mean while the setting is just sitting there wallowing in it's own contradiction simultaneously yelling "World builders go home" and "World builders go nuts".
40k isn't a story, it's barely a setting, it's a grimdark playground. And I'm pretty happy some of their folks are into that still. I will admit, the recent story focus had me worried on that, but in reading the stuff it makes the level of uncertainty perfectly blatant.
the story element is pretty overblown anyway, beyond the gathering storm changes things are more or less about on par with how 40k has typically been. with story rarely being that big a deal and seldom impacting things over all, Vigilus for example is pretty similer to just about every campaign GW's ever run.
Eldenfirefly wrote: My advice: Go watch the youtube series Astartes. It is up to part 4, and it shows an amazing view of how a squad of space marines operates.
If the video doesn't answer the question of "why marines matter" in your mind, then nothing will.
And even if you aren't convinced, at least still watch it for the sheer amazing visual and sound effects.
Assuming they are trying to capture something, or murder someone on board (and assuming their hunter ship wasn't up to the task of destroying the ship) you absolutely could not find humans that could survive the boarding action let alone the take out the on board guards without taking a loss and making such progress through the ship so quickly.
And that's what astartes can do when they drop down to assassinate on planet as well.
Then, if you consider that's how loyal marines operate, it is absolutely terrifying that there are chaos and renegade ones out there as well... You need something that can go toe to toe with them.
Whilst the AM and imperial Navy are evidently the heavy lifters for the imperium, they absolutely cannot act as quickly to situations as marines can with equal effect.
The siege of Vraks explains the logistics required to support an AM army in the battlefield, it takes 12 months to drop all the equipment from orbit and build the infrastructure to support the army to be able to achieve it's first objective of breaking the first defensive line and they also conclude they cannot take the planets space port without too high losses.
The dark angels take that space port within 8 days and demolished it in a further 2 of entering the space system.
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
Lexnicium says the dark angels lost 200 Battlebrothers. that's not a third of their chapter. And the enemy reinforcements where chaos marines arriving via droppod
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
Lexnicium says the dark angels lost 200 Battlebrothers. that's not a third of their chapter. And the enemy reinforcements where chaos marines arriving via droppod
One fifth is hardly better than one third in this case.
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
Lexnicium says the dark angels lost 200 Battlebrothers. that's not a third of their chapter. And the enemy reinforcements where chaos marines arriving via droppod
One fifth is hardly better than one third in this case.
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
Lexnicium says the dark angels lost 200 Battlebrothers. that's not a third of their chapter. And the enemy reinforcements where chaos marines arriving via droppod
One fifth is hardly better than one third in this case.
500 people attacking a fortified location, and effectiuvely opening an entire new front in a war. that's pretty good all told, but yeah conflcits on this scale certainly can;t be the norm for a space marine chapter
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
Lexnicium says the dark angels lost 200 Battlebrothers. that's not a third of their chapter. And the enemy reinforcements where chaos marines arriving via droppod
My mistake for the number part.
The Chaos forces recieved a lot more than droppodded Marines as reinforcements. Titans were deployed after the DA were gone.
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
Lexnicium says the dark angels lost 200 Battlebrothers. that's not a third of their chapter. And the enemy reinforcements where chaos marines arriving via droppod
My mistake for the number part.
The Chaos forces recieved a lot more than droppodded Marines as reinforcements. Titans were deployed after the DA were gone.
true eneugh, I imagine there where some logistical issues with not having a spaceport, but I suspect the main issues where where their expendable infantry anyway. nobody cares about the logistics being harder for a buncha Tzangors
The titans that deployed were from a freighter that the imperial navy failed to completely destroy, so when it crashed on the planets surface they deployed from it. It wasn’t the Dark Angels job to secure the whole planet and the space supremacy. Still, the point is that the dark angels performed a job in 10 days that no other force in the imperium other than other marines could have in such a time scale (As an individual force at least anyway), sure titans could have done it but the logistics to muster and transport them over, then land far enough away from the defence batteries and then provide on ground logistics support whilst they travelled to the spaceport... but that would have been far more inefficient than deploying 400 marines and their support.
It may have been pointless but that was due to a combination of the administratum, the lord commander of the siege and the imperial navies incompetence. You just can’t help some people.
Bobthehero wrote: The performed a job that changed little to nothing on the grand scale of things, and lost a fifth of their chapter for it.
It would have had a huge impact, however the Imperial Navy failed to uphold their side of the bargain.
You must also analyse the potential cost of not taking out the space port. The war would surely have been lost.
If the Navy controlled Space, wether the Space Port is up or not is entirely irrelevant. Its destruction did not prevent chaotic forces from landing troops, either.
Bobthehero wrote: The performed a job that changed little to nothing on the grand scale of things, and lost a fifth of their chapter for it.
It would have had a huge impact, however the Imperial Navy failed to uphold their side of the bargain.
You must also analyse the potential cost of not taking out the space port. The war would surely have been lost.
If the Navy controlled Space, wether the Space Port is up or not is entirely irrelevant. Its destruction did not prevent chaotic forces from landing troops, either.
Again. They technically didn't land most of their troops, they survived a crash landing. They also could land chaos marines via drop pod as they didn't have the palaces defence batteries aimed at the carrier ships.
I get that you must defend your narrative and argument, but it is quite ridiculous how you can't see some sense in the ability of the marines to do the job on the space port in a way no other imperial force could.
Whether it was deemed irrelevant in the end is a mute point, it was something that needed to be handled at that time and the marines did that in a way and time frame now other imperial force could.
I'm not suggesting marines could have done the trench fighting on vraks and the attrition war, they would exhaust their ability super fast. That's why the AM are needed.
Also, the Navy could not control the space above due to the defensive guns on planet which also covered the space port. If the space port would not have been taken out of action, the chaos forces could and would have landed far far far more troops and heavy support than they ended up doing so in the end.
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
That's because they slammed right into an entire Alpha Legion warband. Previously casualties had been light but Astartes v Astartes combat is always horrendous when it comes to casualties due to neither side retreating due to ignoring morale.
Bobthehero wrote: The performed a job that changed little to nothing on the grand scale of things, and lost a fifth of their chapter for it.
It would have had a huge impact, however the Imperial Navy failed to uphold their side of the bargain.
You must also analyse the potential cost of not taking out the space port. The war would surely have been lost.
If the Navy controlled Space, wether the Space Port is up or not is entirely irrelevant. Its destruction did not prevent chaotic forces from landing troops, either.
"D-Day was irrelevant because the British Navy already controlled the straight and had sunk most of the German assets"
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
That's because they slammed right into an entire Alpha Legion warband. Previously casualties had been light but Astartes v Astartes combat is always horrendous when it comes to casualties due to neither side retreating due to ignoring morale.
in fairness they'd arrived in part because of reports of the Alpha legion presence but yeah. space marines holding an entrnched position is going to be BLOODY
But much of the time probably what happens is the first option. Space Marines show up and take control of major strategic assets, and most of the local PDF probably realize the seriousness of the situation, and give themselves/their commanders/their planetary governors up.
Remember, the Space Marines are the angels of the Lord. I would think that when the mythical warriors of the God-Emperor turn up, any rebel forces who are simply misled rather than actively traitorous are quite likely to surrender if given the opportunity. It's hard to think your commanders are still loyal servants of the Imperium when the God-Emperor has dispatched his holy warriors to tell you no, they're traitors.
But much of the time probably what happens is the first option. Space Marines show up and take control of major strategic assets, and most of the local PDF probably realize the seriousness of the situation, and give themselves/their commanders/their planetary governors up.
Remember, the Space Marines are the angels of the Lord. I would think that when the mythical warriors of the God-Emperor turn up, any rebel forces who are simply misled rather than actively traitorous are quite likely to surrender if given the opportunity. It's hard to think your commanders are still loyal servants of the Imperium when the God-Emperor has dispatched his holy warriors to tell you no, they're traitors.
They can just be told that the Marines in question are traitors. One of the Grey Knight novels has exactly that happen.
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
That's because they slammed right into an entire Alpha Legion warband. Previously casualties had been light but Astartes v Astartes combat is always horrendous when it comes to casualties due to neither side retreating due to ignoring morale.
Bobthehero wrote: The performed a job that changed little to nothing on the grand scale of things, and lost a fifth of their chapter for it.
It would have had a huge impact, however the Imperial Navy failed to uphold their side of the bargain.
You must also analyse the potential cost of not taking out the space port. The war would surely have been lost.
If the Navy controlled Space, wether the Space Port is up or not is entirely irrelevant. Its destruction did not prevent chaotic forces from landing troops, either.
"D-Day was irrelevant because the British Navy already controlled the straight and had sunk most of the German assets"
Good to know you're a brilliant tactician.
That's not at all a good comparison, the fall of the port barely comes up as having prevent chaos forces from getting reinforcements. Especially at the cost of 200 Dark Angels
Bobthehero wrote: Which ultimately proved to be of little use, as the enemy still recieved massive reinforcements and the DA lost a whole third of their chapter.
That's because they slammed right into an entire Alpha Legion warband. Previously casualties had been light but Astartes v Astartes combat is always horrendous when it comes to casualties due to neither side retreating due to ignoring morale.
Bobthehero wrote: The performed a job that changed little to nothing on the grand scale of things, and lost a fifth of their chapter for it.
It would have had a huge impact, however the Imperial Navy failed to uphold their side of the bargain.
You must also analyse the potential cost of not taking out the space port. The war would surely have been lost.
If the Navy controlled Space, wether the Space Port is up or not is entirely irrelevant. Its destruction did not prevent chaotic forces from landing troops, either.
"D-Day was irrelevant because the British Navy already controlled the straight and had sunk most of the German assets"
Good to know you're a brilliant tactician.
That's not at all a good comparison, the fall of the port barely comes up as having prevent chaos forces from getting reinforcements. Especially at the cost of 200 Dark Angels
It's not about just securing the spaceport from Chaos to deny it from them, but also claiming the Spaceport to allow more landings. 200 casualties also isn't surprising when getting ambushed by the Alpha Legion - normally you're lucky for anybody to make it out alive.
It's not about just securing the spaceport from Chaos to deny it from them, but also claiming the Spaceport to allow more landings. 200 casualties also isn't surprising when getting ambushed by the Alpha Legion - normally you're lucky for anybody to make it out alive.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Nobody matters in 40K. Not even the Emperor and the Primarchs matter. Everyone is going to die and all that they built will crumble in the face of constant war.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
They weren't trying to secure it, they aimed to destroy it and they did.
I also don't understand the narrative that because vraks turned out to be a pious victory, it means that the dark angels did something wrong and marines are useless and pointless.
If you look at it as just the destruction of the space port, they achieved it, and in a fashion and time frame no other imperial force could have.
Yes they lost 200 battle brothers, but the resistance at the space port was unprecedented... And really, who does see the alpha legion coming anyway?
The fact the space port destruction actually accounted to little is not the fault of the dark angels, the overall command of vraks was an absolute shambles. If it was ran in any sort of fashion that closely resembled competence, the destruction of the space port could have been a master stroke. It is still an impressive feat, and it was needed. How the enemy managed to still land forces was unexpected and somewhat niche, they would have got far more forces on the ground if the space port was active.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
The imperium/mechanicum have always had the resources to win, or at least fend off their enemies with little concern... They just don't do the R&D to turn those resources into the most efficient kill machines possible and the death machines they use to have they have hidden in vaults that people have forgot existed, and if they do happen to find something of such value, they don't do the reverse engineering to recreate it...
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Nobody matters in 40K. Not even the Emperor and the Primarchs matter. Everyone is going to die and all that they built will crumble in the face of constant war.
Sure, perhaps nothing matters at the point you consider the endgame of the heat death of the universe, but thats not really the context of the conversation.
In another context, marines matter because they sell like hotcakes, and the universe of 40k might not exist without them because GW would have gone under if it werent for the huge sales of Space Marines. But again, that wasn't really the question.
I'd say the Imperium is doomed to the struggle of survival. In which case yes, marines matter in the sense that they play an important role in it's military apparatus. In that sense they matter even if the best the Imperium can do is hold the line.
I think Marines matter, Astartes and Custodes anyways, because they have become post-human as well as super-human. They're supposed to be Humanity's heroes, but they're just monsters. It's in keeping with the 40k ethos of everything being worse than you think it is, although things are already pretty bad.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
I think sir you should sit down and re-read the new fluff.Ok first of all no they didn't conquer Cadia but they DESTROYED IT. that should suffice for Abaddon's goals yeah?
and let's take a look through the new background info in the core book.
page 51 Dark Imperium.
Now that messages could once again be sent through the Warp, Terra received such a backlog of shrieks that half the astropathic choir where driven insane. The survivors where appalled to discover how many planets, even on the terran side of the rift did not respond.
Now you're going to dismiss this as meaningless but they knew the situation would be bad given the astronomicon had stopped working for a bit and deamons had assaulted terra, but they where still shocked at how many worlds failed to respond and may have been lost. And it continues...
Slightly less then half of the one thousand space marine chapters remained unaccounted for, and no less then 12 Space Marine chapter planets where reported as destroyed during the Noctis Aeterina and the bitter campaigned that followed. Some Chapters like the White Consuls escaped the destruction of their fortress worlds. Others died to a man, as did the Sky Sentinals when their homeworld of Pranagar was overrun by none other then Magnus the Red
Yeah anyone claiming the great rift's formation was pointless needs to read that. It's formation dealt the Imperium a body blow, it likely oblitated a good 30-45% of the space marine chapters in existance. That's insane loses
Yes Gulliman's crusade liberated some of these worlds etc, but I garetee you it wasn't eneugh by far.
then let's move forward to page 53.
So did systems fall, creating the scourge systems. this trio of sickly systems had fallen to Nurgle
ohh look... CHAOS HAS CONQUERED SOMETHING. and It's worth noting this is actually a newish development. generally chaos goes in wrecks a world and retreats back into the Eye. we're actually seeing chaos seizing worlds.
Anyway I'm not going to go further. I've cited eneugh, there are more examples,
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
The imperium/mechanicum have always had the resources to win, or at least fend off their enemies with little concern... They just don't do the R&D to turn those resources into the most efficient kill machines possible and the death machines they use to have they have hidden in vaults that people have forgot existed, and if they do happen to find something of such value, they don't do the reverse engineering to recreate it...
Honestly the biggest think holding back the Imperium is that the Mechanicus is completely corrupted and full of competing donkey-caves vying for supremacy that don't loosen their monopolization of technology relegated to specific worlds. Ryza isn't the only world that makes Plasma Guns, but it is the only world that can mass produce Leman Russ Executioners - imagine how much of a boon it would be for the Imperial Guard if those STC's were spread across the rest of the Forge Worlds allowing the normal Leman Russ to be completely replaced by something that combines HE and AP into one delicious ball of superheated death? Or dusting off the Thallaxi and using slave fodder from Hive planets as the organic components for the mass production of the old Thallaxi contingents used in the Horus Heresy to great effect. Or just the general archeotech the Admech squats upon without allowing anybody else to touch it.
Martel732 wrote: If thats true, then executioners shouldnt be in the game. A single planet can't make enough using backwards production methods.
What? The Admech doesn't have "backwards production methods". A single Forge World can churn out millions of products over the course of a single year due to the manufactorums literally covering the entire surface area of the planet. There is no wasted space, and the production scale is insane. The only thing that takes time to make are ships and titans, and even those can be mass produced (ships being easier than titans however).
Martel732 wrote: Oh its a forgeworld? I guess thats sorta reasonable. Even if stcs are still dumb.
no Martel STCs aren't dumb at all. the admechs obsession with only ever following STC designs is a bit stupid on their part but the system itself was absolutely brilliant.
No, it wasn't because of this exact dependency. Adaptation is critical, and stcs stop all adaptation. It would be simple enough to put an upscaled plasma cannon on a russ turret.
Martel732 wrote: No, it wasn't because of this exact dependency. Adaptation is critical, and stcs stop all adaptation. It would be simple enough to put an upscaled plasma cannon on a russ turret.
That is true and also heresy, show yourself to the nearest tech priest to be lobotomised and turned into a servitor for daring to think you can improve upon the holy designs of the machine god.
Adaption is Heresy in 40k, only a few can even remotely get away with it and even then its pushing it, marines can do it but in 10k years we get the las pred and crusader?
Martel732 wrote: No, it wasn't because of this exact dependency. Adaptation is critical, and stcs stop all adaptation. It would be simple enough to put an upscaled plasma cannon on a russ turret.
The STC's don't stop adaption, and adaption isn't what is needed on a galactic scale with variable travel times; what matters is logistics. Having a cool new tank doesn't matter if nobody has the parts to repair it when you're deployed, while everybody has the parts to repair a leman russ on the fly. It's also part of the reason why the Primaris thing is so god damn stupid as it means that only Mars has the ability to support Primaris Chapters until every single Forge World is overhauled.
The thing about STCs is that they're designed to be supremely efficient for mass manufacturing. That's where they shine. STCs as a concept aren't that stranger than a company having a competitive advantage in modern global capitalism because their manufacturing process allows them to produce with minimal waste in both time and resources.
STCs aren't a bad thing, the bad thing is the slavish adherence to ultra-traditionalism.
Martel732 wrote: No, it wasn't because of this exact dependency. Adaptation is critical, and stcs stop all adaptation. It would be simple enough to put an upscaled plasma cannon on a russ turret.
The STC's don't stop adaption, and adaption isn't what is needed on a galactic scale with variable travel times; what matters is logistics. Having a cool new tank doesn't matter if nobody has the parts to repair it when you're deployed, while everybody has the parts to repair a leman russ on the fly. It's also part of the reason why the Primaris thing is so god damn stupid as it means that only Mars has the ability to support Primaris Chapters until every single Forge World is overhauled.
Primaris doesnt bother me because its all nonsensical to me.
Martel732 wrote: No, it wasn't because of this exact dependency. Adaptation is critical, and stcs stop all adaptation. It would be simple enough to put an upscaled plasma cannon on a russ turret.
The STC's don't stop adaption, and adaption isn't what is needed on a galactic scale with variable travel times; what matters is logistics. Having a cool new tank doesn't matter if nobody has the parts to repair it when you're deployed, while everybody has the parts to repair a leman russ on the fly. It's also part of the reason why the Primaris thing is so god damn stupid as it means that only Mars has the ability to support Primaris Chapters until every single Forge World is overhauled.
Primaris doesnt bother me because its all nonsensical to me.
And then the Imperium is immediately beset by Daemons at all angles when they no longer are using the proper means to secure their machines from being possessed by Daemons. Great idea
Melissia wrote: The thing about STCs is that they're designed to be supremely efficient for mass manufacturing. That's where they shine. STCs as a concept aren't that stranger than a company having a competitive advantage in modern global capitalism because their manufacturing process allows them to produce with minimal waste in both time and resources.
STCs aren't a bad thing, the bad thing is the slavish adherence to ultra-traditionalism.
I think the original purpose of STCs was to allow even the most backwater location to have modern tech that could be built from accessible materials and function with little to no training. Think of them like 3D printers you can shove almost any substance into and it will give you a machine to help you survive. And the thing the admech covet more than anything else is parts of the file compilations that the STCs use to have as standard.
Melissia wrote: The thing about STCs is that they're designed to be supremely efficient for mass manufacturing. That's where they shine. STCs as a concept aren't that stranger than a company having a competitive advantage in modern global capitalism because their manufacturing process allows them to produce with minimal waste in both time and resources.
STCs aren't a bad thing, the bad thing is the slavish adherence to ultra-traditionalism.
I think the original purpose of STCs was to allow even the most backwater location to have modern tech that could be built from accessible materials and function with little to no training. Think of them like 3D printers you can shove almost any substance into and it will give you a machine to help you survive. And the thing the admech covet more than anything else is parts of the file compilations that the STCs use to have as standard.
that was exactly their purpose. it wasn't intended to be a replacement for invention. STCs where used to create things that already existed. A factory assmbly line's job isn't to innovate
Martel732 wrote: If thats true, then executioners shouldnt be in the game. A single planet can't make enough using backwards production methods.
What? The Admech doesn't have "backwards production methods". A single Forge World can churn out millions of products over the course of a single year due to the manufactorums literally covering the entire surface area of the planet. There is no wasted space, and the production scale is insane. The only thing that takes time to make are ships and titans, and even those can be mass produced (ships being easier than titans however).
Having one place which is the only place anything is made is incredibly backwards as it makes your logistics extremely vulnerable. If your enemy intercepts that pipeline then you have lost all of the production of that one thing.
Also, all of those items it makes still need to be transported off world to where they are needed and raw materials need to be delivered from off world. So the production is limited hy the reliability of the logistics and the imperiums logistics are a mess due to the layers upon layers of bureaucracy.
Martel732 wrote: If thats true, then executioners shouldnt be in the game. A single planet can't make enough using backwards production methods.
What? The Admech doesn't have "backwards production methods". A single Forge World can churn out millions of products over the course of a single year due to the manufactorums literally covering the entire surface area of the planet. There is no wasted space, and the production scale is insane. The only thing that takes time to make are ships and titans, and even those can be mass produced (ships being easier than titans however).
Having one place which is the only place anything is made is incredibly backwards as it makes your logistics extremely vulnerable. If your enemy intercepts that pipeline then you have lost all of the production of that one thing.
Also, all of those items it makes still need to be transported off world to where they are needed and raw materials need to be delivered from off world. So the production is limited hy the reliability of the logistics and the imperiums logistics are a mess due to the layers upon layers of bureaucracy.
but at the same time it makes that world IMPORTANT, it gives them influence because you wanna accomodate them as much as possiable to keep your item and you also will prioritze the world's safety. it's not the most efficant system, but it makes perfect sense. These types of things happen in any orginization
Martel732 wrote: If thats true, then executioners shouldnt be in the game. A single planet can't make enough using backwards production methods.
What? The Admech doesn't have "backwards production methods". A single Forge World can churn out millions of products over the course of a single year due to the manufactorums literally covering the entire surface area of the planet. There is no wasted space, and the production scale is insane. The only thing that takes time to make are ships and titans, and even those can be mass produced (ships being easier than titans however).
Having one place which is the only place anything is made is incredibly backwards as it makes your logistics extremely vulnerable. If your enemy intercepts that pipeline then you have lost all of the production of that one thing.
Also, all of those items it makes still need to be transported off world to where they are needed and raw materials need to be delivered from off world. So the production is limited hy the reliability of the logistics and the imperiums logistics are a mess due to the layers upon layers of bureaucracy.
Christ it would help if you actually read anything before you post. No Imperial logistics are not a "mess" considering they routinely ship trillions of tonnes of resources. I've done some rough estimates before on this very site where the very existence of Hive Worlds demands entire armadas of ships carting around trillions of tonnes of water and food to sustain them on a daily basis, scaling to quadrillions in no time at all.
Edge of the Abyss First and Foresmost, Trade-Admiral Saul is a merchantman. His fleets crisscross the Expanse, carrying trillions of megatonnes of bulk freight per annum and serving even the most benighted and backwater worlds. In their holds they've carried guns and grain, penitents and prisoners, detachments of the Adpetus Astartes and even high ranking officials ofthe Ecclesiarchy.
This is a single Rogue Trader and his private operation conducting trade in a single sector. 90% of all ships in the Imperium are non-combative and purely dedicated to logistics. Daily the Imperium is shifting the mass of Earth's Moon around the galaxy multiple times. Yearly they are shifting around enough cargo to equal moving the mass of full scale planets. The idea that the Imperium has logistical problems or that they are incompetent with it is laughable, when it's one of their greatest strengths as an empire. You are forgetting that in a civilization encompassing countless quadrillions of humans and over a million worlds (more likely billions outside of the thematic 'million worlds' nonsense) and controlling the majority of the galaxy, the Imperium accidentally forgetting about a single planet and deleting it from a database or missing a shipment causing the starvation of an insignificant outer colony doesn't matter. It'd be like a single citizen in the US or China dying - the nation would not even notice and keep skipping on as the unfathomable morass is completely beyond such a loss.
As for Ryza itself, the point is that Leman Russ Executioners already are rare and do not commonly see use outside of specialist regiments of guardsmen. This is purely to do with Ryza's own sense of corruption, which is likely in the interests of self preservation. Ryza has a bad habit of being pile-driven by Orks and Chaos (especially currently), and thus were any other Forge World to start producing Ryza's exclusive patterns, the Imperium may not be motivated to dedicate necessary resources to preserve it. Thus as Ryza itself is concerned it has no motivation to share its technology lest it lose the support of the Guard currently dealing with its unfortunate Daemonic infestation.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
I think sir you should sit down and re-read the new fluff.Ok first of all no they didn't conquer Cadia but they DESTROYED IT. that should suffice for Abaddon's goals yeah?
and let's take a look through the new background info in the core book.
page 51 Dark Imperium.
Now that messages could once again be sent through the Warp, Terra received such a backlog of shrieks that half the astropathic choir where driven insane. The survivors where appalled to discover how many planets, even on the terran side of the rift did not respond.
Now you're going to dismiss this as meaningless but they knew the situation would be bad given the astronomicon had stopped working for a bit and deamons had assaulted terra, but they where still shocked at how many worlds failed to respond and may have been lost. And it continues...
Slightly less then half of the one thousand space marine chapters remained unaccounted for, and no less then 12 Space Marine chapter planets where reported as destroyed during the Noctis Aeterina and the bitter campaigned that followed. Some Chapters like the White Consuls escaped the destruction of their fortress worlds. Others died to a man, as did the Sky Sentinals when their homeworld of Pranagar was overrun by none other then Magnus the Red
Yeah anyone claiming the great rift's formation was pointless needs to read that. It's formation dealt the Imperium a body blow, it likely oblitated a good 30-45% of the space marine chapters in existance. That's insane loses
Yes Gulliman's crusade liberated some of these worlds etc, but I garetee you it wasn't eneugh by far.
then let's move forward to page 53.
So did systems fall, creating the scourge systems. this trio of sickly systems had fallen to Nurgle
ohh look... CHAOS HAS CONQUERED SOMETHING. and It's worth noting this is actually a newish development. generally chaos goes in wrecks a world and retreats back into the Eye. we're actually seeing chaos seizing worlds.
Anyway I'm not going to go further. I've cited eneugh, there are more examples,
Chaos currently splits the entire Galaxy in half. Nothing stands able to stop Chaos just taking whatever they want wherever they want by numbers alone. So either they're incompetent, uninterested in conquest or just blind. The Great Rift is a bad joke.
Abbadon is lame but that's because he's a victim of GW's writing more than actual failings. Like the Primarchs.
Wyzilla, they may be shipping trillions of tons of stuff. That doesn't mean it is going where it is actually needed because somewhere down the line someone put a decimal in the wrong place and nobody ever questions it because to question the bureaucracy is heresy.
You are ignoring one of the core themes of the Imperium, that its bureaucracy is inflexible, slow and opaque and regularly results in mistakes (such as sending the imperial guard and navy to the wrong planetary systems in response to calls for help) in order to argue that the Imperium actually works.
The Imperium doesn't work. That is the point of the setting.
The F-35 has most of its assembly done in one location in Fort Worth, Texas.
This is done for security reasons. In the Imperium, a lot of stuff is actually made in a lot of places, though, not just one. Plasma guns, for example, are made in several places throughout the galaxy. It's just Ryza tends to make the best ones.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
I think sir you should sit down and re-read the new fluff.Ok first of all no they didn't conquer Cadia but they DESTROYED IT. that should suffice for Abaddon's goals yeah?
and let's take a look through the new background info in the core book.
page 51 Dark Imperium.
Now that messages could once again be sent through the Warp, Terra received such a backlog of shrieks that half the astropathic choir where driven insane. The survivors where appalled to discover how many planets, even on the terran side of the rift did not respond.
Now you're going to dismiss this as meaningless but they knew the situation would be bad given the astronomicon had stopped working for a bit and deamons had assaulted terra, but they where still shocked at how many worlds failed to respond and may have been lost. And it continues...
Slightly less then half of the one thousand space marine chapters remained unaccounted for, and no less then 12 Space Marine chapter planets where reported as destroyed during the Noctis Aeterina and the bitter campaigned that followed. Some Chapters like the White Consuls escaped the destruction of their fortress worlds. Others died to a man, as did the Sky Sentinals when their homeworld of Pranagar was overrun by none other then Magnus the Red
Yeah anyone claiming the great rift's formation was pointless needs to read that. It's formation dealt the Imperium a body blow, it likely oblitated a good 30-45% of the space marine chapters in existance. That's insane loses
Yes Gulliman's crusade liberated some of these worlds etc, but I garetee you it wasn't eneugh by far.
then let's move forward to page 53.
So did systems fall, creating the scourge systems. this trio of sickly systems had fallen to Nurgle
ohh look... CHAOS HAS CONQUERED SOMETHING. and It's worth noting this is actually a newish development. generally chaos goes in wrecks a world and retreats back into the Eye. we're actually seeing chaos seizing worlds.
Anyway I'm not going to go further. I've cited eneugh, there are more examples,
Chaos currently splits the entire Galaxy in half. Nothing stands able to stop Chaos just taking whatever they want wherever they want by numbers alone. So either they're incompetent, uninterested in conquest or just blind. The Great Rift is a bad joke.
Abbadon is lame but that's because he's a victim of GW's writing more than actual failings. Like the Primarchs.
and in many cases they did take teritory, (seriously you think the Scourge stars are alone?) but in many cases yes chaos IS unintreasted in taking territory.
If it was about securing the port for more landings then they failed, didn't they? They destroyed the port.
Also, their action was ultimately futile as Vraks is now a dead planet. So they lost one fifth of their chapter and accomplished nothing.
Isn't that kinda the whole theme of 40k though?
It's WWI in space: the never-ending conflict where you lose a billion soldiers to barely move the frontline and conquer an objective of dubious strategic importance, then lose it again in the next battle. Rinse and repeat until everything has been destroyed so thoroughly that victory is meaningless.
Certainly. And that is why the answer to "Why Do Marines Matter?" is "They don't." The strategic goal of the Imperium is doomed to fail, it is one of the central pillars of the setting.
Not if you read the bolter porn.
Not if you look at the new fluff either. Primarchs are back, Chaos still can't conquer anything unless the moon is blue and the Imperiums finding new hoards of super super soldiers and resources.
I think sir you should sit down and re-read the new fluff.Ok first of all no they didn't conquer Cadia but they DESTROYED IT. that should suffice for Abaddon's goals yeah?
and let's take a look through the new background info in the core book.
page 51 Dark Imperium.
Now that messages could once again be sent through the Warp, Terra received such a backlog of shrieks that half the astropathic choir where driven insane. The survivors where appalled to discover how many planets, even on the terran side of the rift did not respond.
Now you're going to dismiss this as meaningless but they knew the situation would be bad given the astronomicon had stopped working for a bit and deamons had assaulted terra, but they where still shocked at how many worlds failed to respond and may have been lost. And it continues...
Slightly less then half of the one thousand space marine chapters remained unaccounted for, and no less then 12 Space Marine chapter planets where reported as destroyed during the Noctis Aeterina and the bitter campaigned that followed. Some Chapters like the White Consuls escaped the destruction of their fortress worlds. Others died to a man, as did the Sky Sentinals when their homeworld of Pranagar was overrun by none other then Magnus the Red
Yeah anyone claiming the great rift's formation was pointless needs to read that. It's formation dealt the Imperium a body blow, it likely oblitated a good 30-45% of the space marine chapters in existance. That's insane loses
Yes Gulliman's crusade liberated some of these worlds etc, but I garetee you it wasn't eneugh by far.
then let's move forward to page 53.
So did systems fall, creating the scourge systems. this trio of sickly systems had fallen to Nurgle
ohh look... CHAOS HAS CONQUERED SOMETHING. and It's worth noting this is actually a newish development. generally chaos goes in wrecks a world and retreats back into the Eye. we're actually seeing chaos seizing worlds.
Anyway I'm not going to go further. I've cited eneugh, there are more examples,
Chaos currently splits the entire Galaxy in half. Nothing stands able to stop Chaos just taking whatever they want wherever they want by numbers alone. So either they're incompetent, uninterested in conquest or just blind. The Great Rift is a bad joke.
Abbadon is lame but that's because he's a victim of GW's writing more than actual failings. Like the Primarchs.
and in many cases they did take teritory, (seriously you think the Scourge stars are alone?) but in many cases yes chaos IS unintreasted in taking territory.
Yet they spend so much time trying to take it. The situation Chaos is in simply doesn't match what they do.
"Chaos attacks a planet" =/ "chaos is trying to TAKE the planet" in a vast majority of the times we see chaos win they sacrifice the planets population, finish their mcguffin hunt, or whatever, and then leave the world alone, ashes in it's wake
BrianDavion wrote: "Chaos attacks a planet" =/ "chaos is trying to TAKE the planet" in a vast majority of the times we see chaos win they sacrifice the planets population, finish their mcguffin hunt, or whatever, and then leave the world alone, ashes in it's wake
You can just swap words around in that case. Most of the planets are fine and aren't that effected by the Rift because half the galaxy being unreachable is largely the same as before. There's no new massive swathes of devastation just a weird rift that they could have made better honestly.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Wyzilla, they may be shipping trillions of tons of stuff. That doesn't mean it is going where it is actually needed because somewhere down the line someone put a decimal in the wrong place and nobody ever questions it because to question the bureaucracy is heresy.
You are ignoring one of the core themes of the Imperium, that its bureaucracy is inflexible, slow and opaque and regularly results in mistakes (such as sending the imperial guard and navy to the wrong planetary systems in response to calls for help) in order to argue that the Imperium actually works.
The Imperium doesn't work. That is the point of the setting.
No the issue is that you are incapable of using logical thought lol, nevermind that those shipments do get to where they're supposed to be per author.
"The Imperium doesn't work" is a false statement as it cannot coexist with the fact "the Imperium has stood for ten thousand and two hundred years". If the Imperium were incapable of working it wouldn't last longer than all of recorded human history, but has however, and even has a better track record than every single modern civilization. If the Imperium was a "bad" civilization or an "incompetent" one, that would mean every single civilization ever erected by humankind from the Han Dynasty to the modern Anglosphere is a drooling invalid woefully inferior in comparison considering neither have existed anywhere close to the same period of time, scale, or endured similar amounts of suffering while shrugging it off with indifference. I would suggest you cease taking memes as facts and for all future posts post actual quotes backing up your absurd ideas. Because I would quite like to see this evidence where most imperial shipments don't make it on time, even though were this to happen the Imperium would literally die in months from starvation. This is the background section after all. It helps to have an actual grasp of the background by reading the Black Library and supplemental material en masse.
The IOM stands despite itself is a core theme of the setting. Like almost any fictional setting trying to use real world logic will make the setting fail apart rather quickly. We have numerous examples of the Imperial bureaucrats screwing up badly, hell the inquisition have a whole Ordo dedicated to trying to reduce/catch those F ups. Marines are more or less free from all that nonsense. A chapter can move at lighting speed compared to the sprawling (by design) mess that is the Admin state.
Lets look at this from a best case scenario. A random planet is attacked by X force or has suffered a rebellion. They try to contain it themselves but the Governor and PDF leaders are competent and realistic in how the battle is going. They jointly agree they will need help. They use an Astropath to send a message to the larger IOM, which gets through with completely accurately with no distortion or interference.
The receiving end moves quickly to rally the relevant forces needed to help said planet. They send out further messages to rally both a force of IG and IN which are under separate commands and are not supposed to coordinate to closely due to post heresy doctrines. This goes well and the needed forces are mustered quickly and efficiently and the ships take off into the warp. That trip goes smoothly, no ships are lost and they arrive at the right coordinates with no time nonsense that can happen during a warp jump. They begin to take the needed steps to save this world.
Alternatively, The governor and the PDF leaders are vain and incompetent and wait far to long to send out a call for help. Said message ends up going out distorted to a far flung world and the receiving end has to work to figure out exactly what it says. This leads to delays on mustering forces and makes rallying the proper forces take far longer than it otherwise would. Said forces think they are given the correct coordinates but do to warp storms loss much of their number and ultimately end up in the wrong system due to a clerical error because a low level adept dropped some papers and the wrong coordinates ended up in an admirals hand. As an added bonus they end up popping out of the warp 10 years before they left which now has the added bonus of causing a time F up for the Inquisition to sort out.
The general IOM response is some were between those two scenarios and that's were Marines come in. They can cut out most of the bureaucratic nightmare that is such a big empire and move quickly to help sure up the gaps. The first DOW and Space Marine cover this perfectly, when you need speed you need marines.
They can't apply enough force as individual chapters. A good gsc uprising would wipe out multiple groups of 1k marines. Gws scale is unbelievable even if they brute it with author fiat. We dont even need to get into rock saws being better than marine melee weapons.
Martel732 wrote: They can't apply enough force as individual chapters. A good gsc uprising would wipe out multiple groups of 1k marines. Gws scale is unbelievable even if they brute it with author fiat. We dont even need to get into rock saws being better than marine melee weapons.
One I'll concede that GW sucks at numbers, but stop trying to port table top rules into background arguments, especially when table top numbers and abilities are driven just as much by sales needs as background.
I agree the two have a gulf between them but that is largely down to GW knowing that if I can sell you five space marines or you can run a GSC/Ork/IG army that will need hundreds of models then they won't last long as a company.
Again I don't get why you play this game or continue to interact with this setting. You claim to have played for a long while but don't seem to like any aspect of it or enjoy your own army.
I used to. It was less aggravating in the 90s. The more detail gw has filled in, the dumber the setting has gotten. Underscored by marines being a poor list in the game, which is functionally far more important than bolter porn.
I don't get why bladestorm exists but bolters get nothing. It's the polar reverse of the bolter porn: total neutering.
Martel732 wrote: I used to. It was less aggravating in the 90s. The more detail gw has filled in, the dumber the setting has gotten. Underscored by marines being a poor list in the game, which is functionally far more important than bolter porn.
I don't get why bladestorm exists but bolters get nothing. It's the polar reverse of the bolter porn: total neutering.
I agree that bolters need some kind of AP ability or plus damage back. While I like the changes to the AP system over all they really stress how limited the D6 system is. I'm hoping that the new Apoc using a d10 might be a sign that GW might switch over to that over an even higher dice.
Thats just the tip. BA are poor at cc in 8th ed, ig have tanks that shoot better than marine tanks as well as a virtual monopoly on indirect, there is no effective way to kill chaff, etc. S5 -1 ap high rof is better at than a lascannon most of the time.
Looking at units like grotesques, bullgryns, wraiths, etc there is no difference between a marine and a guardsmen. Marines do nothing well except die and stand in bubbles. Maybe the fluff is updated, but i dont recall bubbles or being little bitches anywhere in marine lore. And yet, my one wound dc guy is a little bitch. These other units arent little bitches. They have chosen specifically marines to not just be a bit toned down, but be an embarassment.
Also, id like to point out that all this gak that xenos get showered with is out of their lore. But marines need toned down? No one else does?
Martel732 wrote: But why are things above AND below both better?
Ask GW. Bring it up in another Dakka forum, if you feel you need to discuss it that badly.
Just don't bring it up in BACKGROUND forum where it has no business being.
this, please please please martel, quit talking about the rules. it might shock you but the lore and the rules are two differant subjects. I know people who read the books, follow the lore etc whom have never played 40k and never will (despite my attempts to get them into it )
Martel732 wrote: They can't apply enough force as individual chapters. A good gsc uprising would wipe out multiple groups of 1k marines. Gws scale is unbelievable even if they brute it with author fiat. We dont even need to get into rock saws being better than marine melee weapons.
Sure, but it works out when you realise protagonists roll 6s and mooks roll 1s.
Martel732 wrote: But why are things above AND below both better?
Ask GW. Bring it up in another Dakka forum, if you feel you need to discuss it that badly.
Just don't bring it up in BACKGROUND forum where it has no business being.
this, please please please martel, quit talking about the rules. it might shock you but the lore and the rules are two differant subjects. I know people who read the books, follow the lore etc whom have never played 40k and never will (despite my attempts to get them into it )
They shouldn't be. It's like assigning the incorrect firepower ratings in a wwii game because a ruleset doesnt have to follow the "lore".
Anyway in the background, common humans are able to wipe out discovered genestealer cults without taking drastic losses. They take casualties, but not like throwing rivers of guardsman meat at the problem type casualties. I'd expect that if the marines know there's a GSC they wouldn't necessarily take thousands of casualties clearing out a cult. The main advantage GSC has is surprise and the ability to hide. Once they lose that they're at a bit of a disadvantage, much like how a dark eldar strike force caught flat-footed is going to take massive losses against a similar guard or marine force.
GSCs in the codex, as I understand it, represent, for the most part, highly orginized late cycle GSCs that have suborned a sizable part of the planets populace and infanstructure.
Right. I'm mostly arguing that that's a pretty rare occasion. And that would likely result in much more than a chapter of space marines being sent-- detachments form several chapters alongside hundred or thousands of guard regiments at the minimum!
Because in the lore they are the elite of the elite, equipped with exquisite weaponry, mentally hardened, with centuries of experience each.
A small demi-company can in theory descend on a world and turn the tide of the campaign with a mere 50 men. They can suddenly storm an enemy flagship and cut off the head of an invading snake, saving a planet long before the Imperial Fleet rumbles into town.
In lore, a pair of Marines working in tandem could hunt an entire bog standard AM regiment through a cityscape... and then in another book a squad might die to an ambush of GSC. So it's ups and downs.
Martel732 wrote:It's like assigning the incorrect firepower ratings in a wwii game because a ruleset doesnt have to follow the "lore".
Yeah, that's EXACTLY what it's like.
Regardless if you think that it "shouldn't" be like that, here is still not the place to discuss it.
bouncingboredom wrote:Why do Marines matter?
Because in the lore they are the elite of the elite, equipped with exquisite weaponry, mentally hardened, with centuries of experience each.
A small demi-company can in theory descend on a world and turn the tide of the campaign with a mere 50 men. They can suddenly storm an enemy flagship and cut off the head of an invading snake, saving a planet long before the Imperial Fleet rumbles into town.
In lore, a pair of Marines working in tandem could hunt an entire bog standard AM regiment through a cityscape... and then in another book a squad might die to an ambush of GSC. So it's ups and downs.
Exactly. The lore tells us they can do these things, and therefore, they can.
Bobthehero wrote: The lore also show us they can't do that, so they can't?
No, it shows us that some marine fared well, and others fared poorly. Books tend to focus on extraordinary circumstances. In one extraordinary circumstance, they might be capable of 'X'. But that doesn't mean 'X' is expected or part of their MO. Not every ex-spec ops (or whatever) is Rambo. Rambo is Rambo, and even then he probably had a string of good luck.
Bobthehero wrote: The lore also show us they can't do that, so they can't?
Yes, it does. Marines, much like a lot of 40k lore, exists in such as way that there are two answers, and both are "correct" and "canon". You need to use mental gymnastics to basically say "Marines are simultaneously capable, and not capable, of doing these things".
However, in the grand scheme of things, it's very clear that in the majority of cases, Space Marines *do* pull of these incredible feats. It's not to say they can't fail (evidenced by their failures), but they succeed more often than not - however, in the wider scope of 40k, even their successes, which are things no other force could do to the same degree (again, not saying other forces "can't do it"), aren't enough to fight off everything else.
That's why the Marines, good as they are, need the rest of the Imperium, much like the Imperium needs them.
Martel732 wrote: Thinking about it. This fluff is really stupid. Much more stupid than in the 90s now that I look into a bit. Ignorance was bliss.
except it really wasn't/ the differance now is two fold. one you're older and more likely to notice these things, and 2 you didn't have as ready access to the internet spewing all sorts of silly memes etc.
The changes your railing against aren't all that new though if they exist at all. I started the game around 2006 and marine fluff really hasn't shifted much except the over the top 5th edition codex with it's hype of the Ultramarines and the shift this editions with marines 2.0. I can''t comment on much before that.
No army plays exactly like it does in the background because that would one ding sales for a lot of factions or require a stupid amount of models for the horde factions and two require many more one sided scenarios.
Roughly half the factions in the game would rarely if ever fight an even pitched battle with clear starting sides and objectives. Again background=rules has pretty much never been a thing.
one thing to keep in mind is that armor in 40k table top simply doesn;t work like armor. I mean in table top 40k I throw a rock at a space marine, and his armor's only got a 50/50 chance of stopping the rock. real life... doesn't work that way
Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
Martel732 wrote: Its not changes as much as all the additional details that are all so awful. And its lost its satirical edge. They are playing it straight now.
Maybe gws fiction was always awful. It certainly is now.
Cool, again, if you don't want to discuss it - why are you here exactly? We just want to discuss the actual lore - not the game, not if we like it, just to discuss what purpose Marines have, by citing in-universe 40k lore.
Melissia wrote: Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
I've always tried to treat the lore as propaganda. It's the official account of the side telling you their story. Space Marines are 8-9 feet tall? Could just be exaggeration. Kind of like the Starship Troopers movie which was somewhat contemporary to early 40K.
There's a great little short about some orks pinned down near a bridge. I think it's in the original aramgeddon campaign book. The Ork leader is musing over how all his old drinking friends are dead. He comes across almost human in it, as opposed to the way Orks are normally presented. I like the idea that everything we know about the universe is a lie of some kind; Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tau.
Melissia wrote: Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
I've always tried to treat the lore as propaganda. It's the official account of the side telling you their story. Space Marines are 8-9 feet tall? Could just be exaggeration. Kind of like the Starship Troopers movie which was somewhat contemporary to early 40K.
There's a great little short about some orks pinned down near a bridge. I think it's in the original aramgeddon campaign book. The Ork leader is musing over how all his old drinking friends are dead. He comes across almost human in it, as opposed to the way Orks are normally presented. I like the idea that everything we know about the universe is a lie of some kind; Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tau.
Except much of the lore contains information that is impossible to know in-universe and the entire propaganda idea is ridiculous.
Melissia wrote: Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
I've always tried to treat the lore as propaganda. It's the official account of the side telling you their story. Space Marines are 8-9 feet tall? Could just be exaggeration. Kind of like the Starship Troopers movie which was somewhat contemporary to early 40K.
There's a great little short about some orks pinned down near a bridge. I think it's in the original aramgeddon campaign book. The Ork leader is musing over how all his old drinking friends are dead. He comes across almost human in it, as opposed to the way Orks are normally presented. I like the idea that everything we know about the universe is a lie of some kind; Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tau.
Space Marines are 7 ft. tall. Impressions from Black Library are often exaggerations.
The movie Starship Troopers came well after 40K had established itself, and is a satire of the book, which is definitely not satire.
I could be wrong, but I think those little shorts still get published here and there. I don't read and re-read my codexes like I used to, but I think that stuff is still sprinkled about.
Wyzilla wrote:Except much of the lore contains information that is impossible to know in-universe and the entire propaganda idea is ridiculous.
It works for me so... unlucky I guess.
Insectum7 wrote:Space Marines are 7 ft. tall. Impressions from Black Library are often exaggerations.
The movie Starship Troopers came well after 40K had established itself, and is a satire of the book, which is definitely not satire.
I could be wrong, but I think those little shorts still get published here and there. I don't read and re-read my codexes like I used to, but I think that stuff is still sprinkled about.
There's as tall as I decide them to be in my head.
Melissia wrote: Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
I've always tried to treat the lore as propaganda. It's the official account of the side telling you their story. Space Marines are 8-9 feet tall? Could just be exaggeration. Kind of like the Starship Troopers movie which was somewhat contemporary to early 40K.
There's a great little short about some orks pinned down near a bridge. I think it's in the original aramgeddon campaign book. The Ork leader is musing over how all his old drinking friends are dead. He comes across almost human in it, as opposed to the way Orks are normally presented. I like the idea that everything we know about the universe is a lie of some kind; Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tau.
Space Marines are 7 ft. tall. Impressions from Black Library are often exaggerations.
The movie Starship Troopers came well after 40K had established itself, and is a satire of the book, which is definitely not satire.
I could be wrong, but I think those little shorts still get published here and there. I don't read and re-read my codexes like I used to, but I think that stuff is still sprinkled about.
claiming the SST movie was a "satire" of the book was just the defence made to try and justify how bad the movie was
Melissia wrote: Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
I've always tried to treat the lore as propaganda. It's the official account of the side telling you their story. Space Marines are 8-9 feet tall? Could just be exaggeration. Kind of like the Starship Troopers movie which was somewhat contemporary to early 40K.
There's a great little short about some orks pinned down near a bridge. I think it's in the original aramgeddon campaign book. The Ork leader is musing over how all his old drinking friends are dead. He comes across almost human in it, as opposed to the way Orks are normally presented. I like the idea that everything we know about the universe is a lie of some kind; Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tau.
Space Marines are 7 ft. tall. Impressions from Black Library are often exaggerations.
The movie Starship Troopers came well after 40K had established itself, and is a satire of the book, which is definitely not satire.
I could be wrong, but I think those little shorts still get published here and there. I don't read and re-read my codexes like I used to, but I think that stuff is still sprinkled about.
claiming the SST movie was a "satire" of the book was just the defence made to try and justify how bad the movie was
The movie wasn't even originally about the book until later. IIRC they just changed the name later on in order to get more recognition.
Melissia wrote: Not everything in life is straightforward and simple. And 40k lore is anything but either of those, in spite of how many people talk about it (including myself at times). It is a collection of myths and legends from the perspective of hundreds of individuals, a mass contradiction of tales told by dozens of authors without consulting each other.
I prefer to hold them in balance, as opposed to working from the extremes.
I've always tried to treat the lore as propaganda. It's the official account of the side telling you their story. Space Marines are 8-9 feet tall? Could just be exaggeration. Kind of like the Starship Troopers movie which was somewhat contemporary to early 40K.
There's a great little short about some orks pinned down near a bridge. I think it's in the original aramgeddon campaign book. The Ork leader is musing over how all his old drinking friends are dead. He comes across almost human in it, as opposed to the way Orks are normally presented. I like the idea that everything we know about the universe is a lie of some kind; Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Tau.
Space Marines are 7 ft. tall. Impressions from Black Library are often exaggerations.
The movie Starship Troopers came well after 40K had established itself, and is a satire of the book, which is definitely not satire.
I could be wrong, but I think those little shorts still get published here and there. I don't read and re-read my codexes like I used to, but I think that stuff is still sprinkled about.
claiming the SST movie was a "satire" of the book was just the defence made to try and justify how bad the movie was
The movie wasn't even originally about the book until later. IIRC they just changed the name later on in order to get more recognition.
yeah I can belive it, as someone who enjoyed the book I thought it a pity.
Wyzilla wrote:Except much of the lore contains information that is impossible to know in-universe and the entire propaganda idea is ridiculous.
It works for me so... unlucky I guess.
Insectum7 wrote:Space Marines are 7 ft. tall. Impressions from Black Library are often exaggerations.
The movie Starship Troopers came well after 40K had established itself, and is a satire of the book, which is definitely not satire.
I could be wrong, but I think those little shorts still get published here and there. I don't read and re-read my codexes like I used to, but I think that stuff is still sprinkled about.
There's as tall as I decide them to be in my head.
You're welcome to it. However I have to say that 7ft is the stated norm for Space Marines, regardless of the bizarre inflations of Black Library.
I'd also mention that 7ft and swoll is HUGE. Way bigger than most people seem to credit. The Mountain from GOT is already surreal when standing next to most people, and he's 6'9". Add another few inches and thick armor and you have something plenty intimidating.
Making your own chapter with bigger (or smaller) marines though? Go for it.
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BrianDavion wrote: .
claiming the SST movie was a "satire" of the book was just the defence made to try and justify how bad the movie was
I've heard a number of different reasons behind it, either way it's definitely a far cry from a respectful representation. The tone is certainly satyrical whether it was planned from the get-go or added halfway through or whatever.
Maybe on the hardest difficult, but on normal and easy, he felt just fine. Every time I think he acted slow, I also thought about the guardsmen in that game, and how Titus breezes past them, and it all feels better.
codex fluff. Like every single time a space marine bleeds out even though that's literally supposed to be impossible due to instant formation of scar tissue making internal hemorrhaging impossible. 
