I like my Knights gun castle... you can fit a Guard Battalion w/ 2 Tank Commanders and a Knights Super Heavy Detachment of 3 Crusaders into the same list. LOTS of firepower, and if the enemy gets too close the Knights can charge and stomp the enemy to death.
Unless the board is densely covered with LOS blocking terrain and I bring a zerker heavy army I am glad your having fun with a Tau gun line. I sure as feth won't be 9/10.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: Unless the board is densely covered with LOS blocking terrain and I bring a zerker heavy army I am glad your having fun with a Tau gun line. I sure as feth won't be 9/10.
But its your hobby, play what you find enjoyable.
Always play with an agreed amount of terrain between both myself and my opponent, not so much to destroy
My gun line and not so little to let my Gunlines be broken, and itc rules so first floors are LOS blocking also
Well OP didn't specify it had to be a static gunline castle. Custodes and Knights can certainly do gunlines, and they have the ability to go on the offensive if it's tactically a good idea. Flexible armies like that have always been my favorite.
I agree with the general sentiments from Peregrine. Static gunlines aren't fun. Mobile gunlines can be though, and you could try Drukhari for that. They have a lot of mobility but tend to rely on spamming Blasters for a lot of their anti-tank so need to get close to use them. It can make for an interesting game as you play around at the edges of range, trying not to get tagged by close combat troops.
I would argue that gunlines by definition are static, not mobile. No one has ever described Drulhari as a gunline, certainly nobody that actually plays the army.
AdMech do a fairly ok mobile gunline - Kataphrons, Onagers & Ironstriders are all fairly mobile (have a lot of firepower) (of the three only the Ironstriders suffer penalties to hit if moving, but that can easily be corrected by the use of a 1CP stratagem.
Imateria wrote: I would argue that gunlines by definition are static, not mobile. No one has ever described Drulhari as a gunline, certainly nobody that actually plays the army.
The correct term would be mechanized, you use a bunch of transports to get your Dakka to the point.
Not unlike PZ grenadiers.
CSM can with the new stuff run a hybrid daemon engine gunline that also packs a relativly mean punch. But alas Daemoengines come with a steep pricetag and CP also.
Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it. Others love melee, and if melee was broken they’d be having fun watching their melee dudes slaughter everyone. Sadly you can not please everyone, so murder their guys with a huge castled Gunlines and if they complain afterwards, point them in the direction of warmahordes and tell them to have a good day
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.
"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.
"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."
Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions. If you play with an actual group of friends, and they know you’re playing an army and style that fits what you like lore wise, as well as model and paint scheme wise, they won’t care. And if you play in a competitive environment, they are going to find ways to beat it. Your opinion is invalid, unfortunately
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions. If you play with an actual group of friends, and they know you’re playing an army and style that fits what you like lore wise, as well as model and paint scheme wise, they won’t care. And if you play in a competitive environment, they are going to find ways to beat it. Your opinion is invalid, unfortunately
I play with friends and if they wasted my time with a gunline list it would probably be the last time I play 40k with them. Gunlines take an already shallow game and remove all meaningful strategy and interaction from it. You set up your gunline and then roll dice until someone wins the game. No movement, no melee, no concern for the scenario objectives, just rolling dice to see if you can kill everything before the turn limit. Taking a list like that in a casual game with friends is TFG behavior IMO, at least in a tournament you have the excuse that winning is what matters and "fun" is irrelevant if it doesn't win games.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions. If you play with an actual group of friends, and they know you’re playing an army and style that fits what you like lore wise, as well as model and paint scheme wise, they won’t care. And if you play in a competitive environment, they are going to find ways to beat it. Your opinion is invalid, unfortunately
I play with friends and if they wasted my time with a gunline list it would probably be the last time I play 40k with them. Gunlines take an already shallow game and remove all meaningful strategy and interaction from it. You set up your gunline and then roll dice until someone wins the game. No movement, no melee, no concern for the scenario objectives, just rolling dice to see if you can kill everything before the turn limit. Taking a list like that in a casual game with friends is TFG behavior IMO, at least in a tournament you have the excuse that winning is what matters and "fun" is irrelevant if it doesn't win games.
I have to agree with Peregrine to some extent. Honestly, gun line armies tend to be so mindless as to make the decent co-op game since they take very little decision making after deployment to play. In those cases, I find the fun comes from solving the puzzle in said co-op game with a friend far more than the actual battling a gun line though.
It was explained to me this way when I was playing a literal zombie horde army, "Why should you be rewarded for literally shambling toward my army when I have to do all the tactical thinking?" The came after I lamented losing because my opponent shot too many of my zombies up that when they final reach their army the zombies didn't have enough strength to do anything meaningful. My opponent was right, I just had to leaf blow my zombies toward them. My opponent had to decide how to best use their force to prevent defeat so they earned victory. While I was merely playing an NPC army.
I will never understand the people who feel compelled to post "THATS JUST UR OPINION". Of course it's my opinion, what else would it be? What useful content have you added to this discussion besides stating the obvious?
Peregrine wrote: I will never understand the people who feel compelled to post "THATS JUST UR OPINION". Of course it's my opinion, what else would it be? What useful content have you added to this discussion besides stating the obvious?
If you read my above posts, regardless of the ones showing you why no one cares about yours, you’ll see I did add to the topic and then you deemed yourself worthy of commenting your opinion as well. If you don’t like the fact I can argue your opinion, maybe this isn’t the forum or game for you little one.
I will also never understand the people who think its important to post their opinions of negativity in a topic that was asking for help on a discussion, just because they constantly get beat by the type of army the individual wants information about. So sad
Taking apart a gunline from the attacking side can be pretty engaging, tactically. It's definitely easier to have fun facing a gunline if you are not also taking a gunline.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I will also never understand the people who think its important to post their opinions of negativity in a topic that was asking for help on a discussion
Because the best possible advice the OP can receive is "don't play a ing gunline in a friendly game". Sometimes the answer to a question is that the idea is bad and should be abandoned, and it's silly to complain about "negativity" because you don't like that answer. In this case the "negativity" preserves the OP's ability to play 40k with their friends and gives them a much more enjoyable experience.
just because they constantly get beat by the type of army the individual wants information about
It has nothing to do with losing to gunlines. Even when you win against a gunline it's a miserable waste of time. You could guarantee me victory 9/10 games and I'd still rather never play 40k again than waste my time playing with a gunline player.
Dark Angels have a semi-fun, semi-competitive gunline build with Azrael surrounded by Hellblasters. Stick a Lieutenant, Ancient, and a Ravenwing Darkshroud in there and you've got a nasty little firebase. It has some glaring weaknesses, hence why I call it semi-competitive, but it is cool if you like cool synergies and combos.
A Castle Gunline is somewhat suspension of disbelief breaking. Castle suggests everything is clumped together. Without a narrative play reason for it, there's no reason to throw bodies at it. Sit back and bomb it. Go around it.
Edit to make sure my point is clear - the funnest castle gun lines have a reason for being a castle gun line. A prefab narrative/victory condition reason the attacker has to take the area defended by the castle gun line, and can't just sit back and drop bombs and artillery on it.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.
"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."
Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions. If you play with an actual group of friends, and they know you’re playing an army and style that fits what you like lore wise, as well as model and paint scheme wise, they won’t care. And if you play in a competitive environment, they are going to find ways to beat it. Your opinion is invalid, unfortunately
In this case I think it's your opinion thats invalid. Gun lines are by far the most commonly cited type of army that people don't like playing against, and has been for a long time, and even amongst friends if someone is bringing a gunline and the others aren't having fun then that player is going to find themselves struggling to get games.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.
"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."
Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions.
I mean, you're choosing to use an army that declines to participate in *at least* two entire phases of the game. Three if you have no psykers.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it. Others love melee, and if melee was broken they’d be having fun watching their melee dudes slaughter everyone. Sadly you can not please everyone, so murder their guys with a huge castled Gunlines and if they complain afterwards, point them in the direction of warmahordes and tell them to have a good day
Considering how much better the WarmaHordes rules and intra-faction balance are, it's the right thing to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horst wrote: Well OP didn't specify it had to be a static gunline castle. Custodes and Knights can certainly do gunlines, and they have the ability to go on the offensive if it's tactically a good idea. Flexible armies like that have always been my favorite.
Marines are at their (admittedly lackluster) best played like this. Castle up so the whole army gets all the rerolls, bring enough melee to not be completely useless when the enemy gets close enough that melee can't be avoided.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.
"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."
Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions.
I mean, you're choosing to use an army that declines to participate in *at least* two entire phases of the game. Three if you have no psykers.
That's not opinion that's objective fact.
Cute, that is fact. I rather hate the psychic phase and melee is gak.. so skip two phases I don’t care for? Yes please and thank you
Brutus_Apex wrote: You hate psykers and melee...the two things that make 40K great and different from other futuristic settings...because 40K is fantasy in space?
Sometimes I will not ever understand peoples motivations for playing or liking this game.
All I can say is I'm glad you don't work for GW.
Luckily GW knows how to make melee suck as well. They make an army to fit so many play styles for others to enjoy. It’s a great concept. Don’t like it? The door is right there. Sometimes I will not ever understand people’s motivations for playing or liking this game that’s meant for many, just because they don’t like the style that individual likes. Hilarious.
And I will remain here, guarding the door from people like you who seek to ruin it's greatness with watered down sci-fi bs.
So because I like and play tau, a 40k faction designed to play as a Gunlines army whether castled or mobile, I’m seeking to “ruin” 40k? And you aren’t guarding anything little buddy
Pain4Pleasure wrote: So because I like and play tau, a 40k faction designed to play as a Gunlines army whether castled or mobile, I’m seeking to “ruin” 40k? And you aren’t guarding anything little buddy
Thank you for demonstrating the point very nicely. Tau used to be a mobile shooting faction with JSJ short-range gun platforms, tanks that could move at full speed while shooting without penalties, etc. The fact that Tau players seem to have collectively decided to ignore the movement phase in favor of setting up a gunline and mindlessly rolling dice, and GW has pandered to their demands by removing the mobility aspect of the Tau army in favor of more gunline pieces, is one of the worst things to happen to 40k.
OP asks for some fun castle lists that he can play for ITC events.
Thread turns into a metric gak ton of gak posting about how gunlines are not fun and if people like the game in a different way than I do they are wrong and terrible people. Well played Dakka stay classy folks.
As for the topic at hand I think Admech can play a pretty strong Castle set up. However keep in mind ITC will punish pure Castles. A good chunk of the secondary objectives are movement based and its going to be real hard to score hold more objectives if you don't leave your deployment zone.
Bobthehero wrote: When does the fun of your opponent comes before your own anyway?
I don't know, but gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either. Not playing a gunline is a win/win scenario unless you're playing in a tournament where you're willing to slog through a miserable waste of time as long as it gets you a win.
I don't like melee all that much, should I deny playing against melee heavy lists?
Not really comparable. Melee involves player decisions, movement, etc. Even if it isn't realistic it's still a much more engaging game for both players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Salt Mine wrote: OP asks for some fun castle lists that he can play for ITC events.
Thread turns into a metric gak ton of gak posting about how gunlines are not fun and if people like the game in a different way than I do they are wrong and terrible people. Well played Dakka stay classy folks.
As for the topic at hand I think Admech can play a pretty strong Castle set up. However keep in mind ITC will punish pure Castles. A good chunk of the secondary objectives are movement based and its going to be real hard to score hold more objectives if you don't leave your deployment zone.
OP asked for fun lists, not just how to win most effectively. And gunlines are not fun for either player.
Well, the actual good tau lists generally also include plenty of mobile elements, since to win you need to get out there and take objectives.
On the op, I originally read it as "funniest gunlines" so was thinking of some sort of lol ork build (though ork gunline is actually a valid strategy right now with lootas, mek guns, etc.)
There are always Tau and IG who fluffwise go for gunlines, though both also have notable mobile elements (suits and tanks) and close combat options (ogryn, catachan, for tau its short range shooting like breachers, stealth suits, all the not super sad builds for crisis suits)
But if you really want to confuse people, use master tactician Kharn. Someone upthread mentioned that chaos can gunline with deamon engines. This is a specific instance of that, where you use Kharn for full re-rolls on your deamon engine gunline (sadly he can probably only get 4 in his aura since it is only 3''). The hilarious part of this is that you are using world eaters for a gunline. Though if you are playing world eaters, you really need to bring beserkers, so I am not sure if it really counts as a gunline if it is only part of your army...
OP asked for fun lists, not just how to win most effectively. And gunlines are not fun for either player.
Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.
OP asked for fun lists, not just how to win most effectively. And gunlines are not fun for either player.
Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.
As someone who (I hope) isn't as divisive as Peregine is, I agree with him to an extent.
Gunlines are, in general, not especially fun for either player. That's not to say it's impossible to have fun with them, or you're wrong for liking them, but generally you'll have a better time with a more well-rounded list, and ESPECIALLY more fun for your opponent. Which does matter-it's a game. Both sides should have a good time.
The Salt Mine wrote: Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.
I am God, so of course I get to decide. However, the number of people agreeing with me should be a pretty strong hint that I'm not some weird fringe extremist and gunlines are genuinely not fun for most people. And why would they be fun? We're talking about an army that ignores the movement and melee phases (and probably also ignores the psychic phase) in favor of deploying in the farthest corner and mindlessly rolling shooting dice until someone wins. It's the least interaction possible in a game that is already shallow and struggling for meaningful interaction.
The Salt Mine wrote: Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.
I am God, so of course I get to decide. However, the number of people agreeing with me should be a pretty strong hint that I'm not some weird fringe extremist and gunlines are genuinely not fun for most people. And why would they be fun? We're talking about an army that ignores the movement and melee phases (and probably also ignores the psychic phase) in favor of deploying in the farthest corner and mindlessly rolling shooting dice until someone wins. It's the least interaction possible in a game that is already shallow and struggling for meaningful interaction.
Ah makes more sense now much like a "real" god you are contributing nothing of actual worth to the conversation at hand other than whining and complaints.
Yaktan wrote: Well, the actual good tau lists generally also include plenty of mobile elements, since to win you need to get out there and take objectives.
On the op, I originally read it as "funniest gunlines" so was thinking of some sort of lol ork build (though ork gunline is actually a valid strategy right now with lootas, mek guns, etc.)
There are always Tau and IG who fluffwise go for gunlines, though both also have notable mobile elements (suits and tanks) and close combat options (ogryn, catachan, for tau its short range shooting like breachers, stealth suits, all the not super sad builds for crisis suits)
But if you really want to confuse people, use master tactician Kharn. Someone upthread mentioned that chaos can gunline with deamon engines. This is a specific instance of that, where you use Kharn for full re-rolls on your deamon engine gunline (sadly he can probably only get 4 in his aura since it is only 3''). The hilarious part of this is that you are using world eaters for a gunline. Though if you are playing world eaters, you really need to bring beserkers, so I am not sure if it really counts as a gunline if it is only part of your army...
Don't even need to bring kharn or daemon engines, Infact if you go to tourneys just don't.
A scourged or Purge MSU spam list can achieve the same level of insanity.
5 man CSM squad with Lascannons that get full to hit rerolls all the time? (Scourged?)
A lot of small CSM squads with big guns like lascannons or AC and a Combiplas Champ as baseline, Lascannon Havocs, Hellbrutes with lascannons and missile launchers, access to the great sorcerer stratagem, might come in handy to get a clutch smite in. Maybee even meltas? (JK probably not go with plasma)
5 man Squads that get full rerolls if you have some "marker " units (probably a Jumplord or two with big guns or some smaller CSM squads marking for the big meanies for the Prurge)
The concepts there, the list that works with them is the main issue but o feel that especially the purge with a minimalistic marker squad approach could work very well.
Infact might even be the right list for a bunch of bikers with combibolters and plasma guns for maximum lolz.
Inherently though CSM are a hybrid faction with some of it's strongest tools bound into Melee.and movement and psy.
Also the new daemon engine sucks, it's a rhino, no seriously because the guns ain't firing if it allready died and it will die.
The Salt Mine wrote: Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.
I am God, so of course I get to decide. However, the number of people agreeing with me should be a pretty strong hint that I'm not some weird fringe extremist and gunlines are genuinely not fun for most people. And why would they be fun? We're talking about an army that ignores the movement and melee phases (and probably also ignores the psychic phase) in favor of deploying in the farthest corner and mindlessly rolling shooting dice until someone wins. It's the least interaction possible in a game that is already shallow and struggling for meaningful interaction.
Ah makes more sense now much like a "real" god you are contributing nothing of actual worth to the conversation at hand other than whining and complaints.
Honestly, if it was any other poster than Peregrine, I’d consider calling herself that would be a joke. But seeing how she has spent the majority of her time on here telling everyone how her way is the ONLY right way to play, it wouldn’t surprise me if she has a deity-complex.
Look, at the end of the day, everyone has to decide what is fun for them. I LOVE seeing static gun lines across from me, because I play speedy lists. They’re lucky if they get a turn to shoot before I’m knocking on their doorstep. Gunlines seemingly don’t require much thought other than target picking, but you can have an enjoyable game squishing them under your boot, if that’s what you face. Look for weaknesses and ways to break through defense. If a person wants to run a one-tone army, hey, they’re missing out on a chunk of the game. But they made that call. Just rush them and they’re forced into two more phases they didn’t want to play. They’re playing by your rules now.
So let me get this straight: your defense of how "fun" gunlines are is that you get to effortlessly win against them? If winning is so easy then why bother playing the game? Just declare yourself the winner and play a more interesting game against someone else.
I sorta agree with gun lines not being all that fun to play against. Any list that largely skips most of the phases of the game/ is virtually non interactive to me isn't all that interesting to play against. 8th kinda makes this worse with movement and positioning being at a low point other than worrying about auras and terrain being a joke right now.
Ok I’m not even all of the way through the comments. If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists. If you don’t like them that’s fine, but you’re comments do not add anything helpful to my post. 40k is a very vast game with tons of playstyles. The group I play with feels the same way. We are all fine facing whatever “cheese” or “cheap” lists our friends bring because that’s part of the game. Not every army and ever lists has to interact in every phase of the game. Some armies specialize in one or two phases and that’s their thing. I was looking for advice on one that is fun and effective in the shooting phase so please only comment if you have constructive comments regarding that topic.
Bobthehero wrote: When does the fun of your opponent comes before your own anyway?
I don't know, but gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either. Not playing a gunline is a win/win scenario unless you're playing in a tournament where you're willing to slog through a miserable waste of time as long as it gets you a win.
They're not? I wonder what was I feeling then, when I played my gunline, because it certainly felt like enjoyement.
And where do you draw the line on what exactly counts as a gunline?
Does my Tau list built around a core of firewarriors with a fireblade count as a gunline? Does the fact that it has 6 squads of breachers change that? Does a line of 30 breachers running all across the front of my deployment zone count as a gunline, when they want to sprint at the enemy and shoot them? How about stealth suits and ghostkeels? I use 2 of each plus shadowsun to take over the center of the board. Does the fact I have a big blob of shooting make it a gunline, or does the fact it deploys right in my enemy's face make it not gunline?
If it does count as gunline, then it is a good anwer for the OP, since it is quite fun. Also no one expects Tau to be running at them flat out to get in point blank range. Though a few people in my meta are starting to catch on a little bit.
Drdotts wrote: Ok I’m not even all of the way through the comments. If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists. If you don’t like them that’s fine, but you’re comments do not add anything helpful to my post. 40k is a very vast game with tons of playstyles. The group I play with feels the same way. We are all fine facing whatever “cheese” or “cheap” lists our friends bring because that’s part of the game. Not every army and ever lists has to interact in every phase of the game. Some armies specialize in one or two phases and that’s their thing. I was looking for advice on one that is fun and effective in the shooting phase so please only comment if you have constructive comments regarding that topic.
Thanks, Drdotts
It's not "cheese" that people are complaining about, it's the "fun" bit, and I think you need to expand on this before you're going to get anything sensible (other than the previously mentioned Druhkari mechanised list). Especially if you want a list that is both fun to play and play against at a ITC event.
If you're just asking how to make the best castle gunline because you enjoy shooting the enemy as they run at you, honestly it's not the place for this kind of list, because in a straight match up they don't make good games. It's like a Tennis match where both players have an unbeatable serve, but can't return to save their lives. You might win some games but you won't win the tournament and your opponents won't have enjoyed playing against you.
If you're asking how to make a castle gunline fun, then I think that can definitely work - but you are kind of playing as an NPC army, or maybe something closer to a GM. We've had some good fun with a series of small games based around learning the way 8th ed and the various armies work - series of short games played back to back where you're adding increasingly more things into the scenario. Though generally we started with the scenario set up so that the gunline had no chance of winning - so a smallish IG platoon with a bit of cover that is up against Kraken genestealers etc, poised to get a first turn charge. Quick 15min game seeing the gimick play out, then reset and redeploy to work out how to mitigate that threat - then if that works, Tyranids add an extra component to the rush and the IG try to come up with something to help counter that, or vice versa. So it ends up being a series of mini-games based around deployment, manoeuvre and spacing.
Clearly not something that'd work in an ITC setting, but might lay the groundwork for something that is a bit more fun and has a castle gunline at it's core.
Or you could means something else by fun? Something that's short ranged but very mobile, or army built around a gunline that you know isn't enough and so the main strength is also in the counter attack? Admech can do the latter fairly well, if you take a core of Kataphrons, and can also be quite mobile whilst still wanting to castle up. For the former, the previously suggested Knights are Druhkari are good options, would have previously said Tau but you're having to sacrifice so much so often to fit this playstyle it kind of feels that you're just doing it for the sake of it rather than as a proper army build.
Drdotts wrote: If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists.
Then please define what you mean with fun gunline lists. A pretty extensive number of people stated that they don't have fun playing against gunlines and in my experience it's also not the most fun i can have playing my armies as such. For the majority in this thread having fun involves both themselves and the opponent and that is where static gunlines fall flat.
Personally I love my mechanized Tau, are they as strong as a similar static list? Most likely not, at least in editions 5th to 7th but are they rewarding, fun and engaging for both you and your opponent? Way more!
Drdotts wrote: If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists.
Then please define what you mean with fun gunline lists. A pretty extensive number of people stated that they don't have fun playing against gunlines and in my experience it's also not the most fun i can have playing my armies as such. For the majority in this thread having fun involves both themselves and the opponent and that is where static gunlines fall flat.
Personally I love my mechanized Tau, are they as strong as a similar static list? Most likely not, at least in editions 5th to 7th but are they rewarding, fun and engaging for both you and your opponent? Way more!
I mean he basically admits here that "Fun" is just his personal experience, in a way.
Imo he could just replace "FUN" with best possible.
For once in my life I actually agree with Pain4Pleasure.
Gunlines are fine and for certain armies, thematic. If that's how people want to play and enjoy it then more power to them. The same people saying it's unfun or boring are probably also those who like to drape their cheap infantry all over the table in ridiculous conga lines. Now THAT is unfun.
In all honesty, shooting is fun but no list should be just guns sitting in place firing all game.
Want to make an enjoyable gun line army ? Add in some CC elements, use some pressing forward screens, have outflanking and distraction units.
You need some elements of tactics and movement in a list to actually interact with the other guy. Just sitting in a line firing with no press around or tactics used aside from fire, rinse, repeat won't be fun for you really or the other guy and against a good opponent can really get dismantled if they use tactics and you just hope your guns can end them.
Now some armies do lead to this style, but even those armies can have variance in their list design. Use it and make the game deeper for you and them.
Bobthehero wrote: I agree with Peregrine on a lot of things, tho I am curious what sort of Krieg list he is running
Plasma grenadiers, Hades drill squads, and some death riders on the to-do list. Sure, there's also some artillery sitting back and shooting, but it's not just a gunline.
Bobthehero wrote: I agree with Peregrine on a lot of things, tho I am curious what sort of Krieg list he is running
Plasma grenadiers, Hades drill squads, and some death riders on the to-do list. Sure, there's also some artillery sitting back and shooting, but it's not just a gunline.
Peregrine wrote: . . . gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either.
Gunlines are exceedingly fun to play against people who whine and moan about the game all the time, complaining about gunlines.
I see, so your "fun" is making the other person unhappy and enjoying their misery? You sound like a great person to play against.
If a person is habitially bringing a toxic negativity, I'm happy to discourage them from playing against me again. I will enjoy making them miserable, yes.
For that matter, define Gunline. Gunline is a word everybody knows what it means, but nobody fully agrees on. Is it static? Castled? Mobile? High Model count? Low? Infantry? Mechanised?
One person might call 6 tac squads, and 6 razorbacks a gun line, even though they all run all over everywhere all game long. Someone else will call it something else. When you close your eyes and see your gun line, what do you see? Hordes? Elites? Ranked archers on a hill flanked by way too many bolt throwers?
Peregrine wrote: . . . gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either.
Gunlines are exceedingly fun to play against people who whine and moan about the game all the time, complaining about gunlines.
I see, so your "fun" is making the other person unhappy and enjoying their misery? You sound like a great person to play against.
If a person is habitially bringing a toxic negativity, I'm happy to discourage them from playing against me again. I will enjoy making them miserable, yes.
"Only my fun matters. Anyone who disagrees is toxic."
I enjoyed playing a Black Legion gunline until recently. 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit did wonders against most armies.
The 'fun' part came from several editions of CSMs being bottom tier, seeing Abaddon lead his troops to victory was deeply satisfying. Knights and Dark Eldar spoiled the party, but I still play the list from time to time for kicks.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions. If you play with an actual group of friends, and they know you’re playing an army and style that fits what you like lore wise, as well as model and paint scheme wise, they won’t care. And if you play in a competitive environment, they are going to find ways to beat it. Your opinion is invalid, unfortunately
I play with friends and if they wasted my time with a gunline list it would probably be the last time I play 40k with them. Gunlines take an already shallow game and remove all meaningful strategy and interaction from it. You set up your gunline and then roll dice until someone wins the game. No movement, no melee, no concern for the scenario objectives, just rolling dice to see if you can kill everything before the turn limit. Taking a list like that in a casual game with friends is TFG behavior IMO, at least in a tournament you have the excuse that winning is what matters and "fun" is irrelevant if it doesn't win games.
All I hear is *wha wha wha Everyone has to play the way I think they should.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: I will also never understand the people who think its important to post their opinions of negativity in a topic that was asking for help on a discussion
Because the best possible advice the OP can receive is "don't play a ing gunline in a friendly game". Sometimes the answer to a question is that the idea is bad and should be abandoned, and it's silly to complain about "negativity" because you don't like that answer. In this case the "negativity" preserves the OP's ability to play 40k with their friends and gives them a much more enjoyable experience.
just because they constantly get beat by the type of army the individual wants information about
It has nothing to do with losing to gunlines. Even when you win against a gunline it's a miserable waste of time. You could guarantee me victory 9/10 games and I'd still rather never play 40k again than waste my time playing with a gunline player.
That really isn't the best advice.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others have to agree with you.
And you don't lose to gunlines, because you don't play 40K.
Peregrine wrote: . . . gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either.
Gunlines are exceedingly fun to play against people who whine and moan about the game all the time, complaining about gunlines.
I see, so your "fun" is making the other person unhappy and enjoying their misery? You sound like a great person to play against.
If a person is habitially bringing a toxic negativity, I'm happy to discourage them from playing against me again. I will enjoy making them miserable, yes.
"Only my fun matters. Anyone who disagrees is toxic."
That's another incredibly poor misrepresentation of what I'm saying, so I'm not about to get fuffed over it.
Peregrine wrote: So let me get this straight: your defense of how "fun" gunlines are is that you get to effortlessly win against them? If winning is so easy then why bother playing the game? Just declare yourself the winner and play a more interesting game against someone else.
As opposed to you having a rage aneurysm if one deploys on a table within 100 miles of your X-wing match?
Drop pods x7 (or more if you spare the points)
3 WW's
3 TFC Loyal + 3 Heavy Mortar teams + Ignore LoS tanks
Paint the Drop pods Red with "build the wall" written on them, place in correct order, slightly over lapping each other for harder LoS blocking.
May as well buy some fortifications at that point. A few bunkers and a few bastions. Then a Void Shield generator to give them a 4+ invuln. I think that works.
Breton wrote: For that matter, define Gunline. Gunline is a word everybody knows what it means, but nobody fully agrees on. Is it static? Castled? Mobile? High Model count? Low? Infantry? Mechanised?
One person might call 6 tac squads, and 6 razorbacks a gun line, even though they all run all over everywhere all game long. Someone else will call it something else. When you close your eyes and see your gun line, what do you see? Hordes? Elites? Ranked archers on a hill flanked by way too many bolt throwers?
Yeah, I asked a similar question last page, but it seems to have gotten lost in the arguing over what fun is.
To me it seems like for many people "gunline" seems to specifically mean an army that sits in one spot and does not move at all while shooting at the enemy. in which case, I have played against an Imperial Knight gunline with my Tau.
The thing is, in the current era of progressive scoring, if you want to win, you need board control--specifically you need to get bodies out onto the objectives and some way of kicking the enemy off of them. So even if your core is a gunline, a 100% pure sit and shoot list will struggle to win, and since winning is fun, if you want the funnest list it needs to be able to win.
Here is an example, I came up with an interesting Tau list that I want to build some day, the core is a set of broadsides with markerlight and commander/strategem support such that they should knock out most of a Knight, or lots of other stuff. But the list also has 2 or 3 (depending on how many shield drones I want to include) 10 man squads of breachers in devilfish and a close combat character. Would that be a gunline, or would the chunk of close up firepower that wants to move around the board make it not a gunline?
Yaktan wrote: To me it seems like for many people "gunline" seems to specifically mean an army that sits in one spot and does not move at all while shooting at the enemy.
Yep, that's what a gunline is. The fundamental identity of a gunline is that you don't move. You deploy your units, usually as far back as possible and behind screening cannon fodder, and you roll shooting dice until you either wipe your opponent's entire army off the table or lose for one of the many reasons that gunlines suck and fail. A shooting-focused list with mobile units that pushes up the table to claim objectives is not a gunline. That kind of list has much more interaction with the other player and a lot more strategy involved so it doesn't ruin the game the way a gunline does.
I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also in my local area there are a lot of full on gunline players who have accepted that we use a lot of terrain for LoS blocking. There should be very few areas you can't hide or claim cover unless they've out manoeuvred you.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
Or me like me, Trygon tunnel them up behind and start the dakka.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
There ARE people who enjoy playing into gunlines, you can't make such a blanket statement. Yes you hate it, but don't project that into a fact everyone else does.
I'm quite shocked at everyones attitude in this thread, it's a way to play the game and some armies really are built around the idea. There are ways to limit it (Terrain. Lots of it as you should with any war game! A sparse table is the biggest offender) but at the end of the day, people need to realize their own preferences start and end with them, they should not try to influence other players army ideas because *they* don't like what the list would be.
Bobthehero wrote: I agree with Peregrine on a lot of things, tho I am curious what sort of Krieg list he is running
Plasma grenadiers, Hades drill squads, and some death riders on the to-do list. Sure, there's also some artillery sitting back and shooting, but it's not just a gunline.
Peregrine wrote: . . . gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either.
Gunlines are exceedingly fun to play against people who whine and moan about the game all the time, complaining about gunlines.
I see, so your "fun" is making the other person unhappy and enjoying their misery? You sound like a great person to play against.
Build a list for my opponent to have fun, or for me to have fun? Hmm
Both.
However, there is a very good method of finding out if your army is "fun" or not. Swap it with the person you are playing with. If you don't like playing against your own list then it probably isn't "fun" for anyone.\
The best solution to not play vs gunlines is to just pass on games vs them. No one is forcing people to play each other. If enough people in the area dislike gunlines they will not play vs them, thus the gunline player has two choices. Find a better list for the area/meta or play another game.
Most area's ive played in dislike gunlines. Probably because it skips two major and flavorful phases of the game. Im just not into lining up toy soldiers and rolling die in one phase of the game. But you do you. Mileage varies.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
Totally a gun line.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Table
I'm willing to bet that most of the people complaining in this thread aren't happy to play against anyone, regardless. Excluding them stomping someone. Gunlines are just their 'acceptable' target to complain against.
Anything that requires them to change tactics, and BOOM, same whining.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
Totally a gun line.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Table
I'm willing to bet that most of the people complaining in this thread aren't happy to play against anyone, regardless. Excluding them stomping someone. Gunlines are just their 'acceptable' target to complain against.
Anything that requires them to change tactics, and BOOM, same whining.
BUT BUT BUT 8th edition doesn't have strategy or tactics!!!!
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
There ARE people who enjoy playing into gunlines, you can't make such a blanket statement. Yes you hate it, but don't project that into a fact everyone else does.
I'm quite shocked at everyones attitude in this thread, it's a way to play the game and some armies really are built around the idea. There are ways to limit it (Terrain. Lots of it as you should with any war game! A sparse table is the biggest offender) but at the end of the day, people need to realize their own preferences start and end with them, they should not try to influence other players army ideas because *they* don't like what the list would be.
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Wait...so it's ok for you to force your play style choice on others, but not for someone to play the army style they like?
TIL...
You say you're one of the 'most experienced' players in your group. But you act like a 12 yearold trying to lecture an adult. People will play the army style that appeals to them. I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks. You're also assuming people who play gun-lines are just cheese wallowing butt-clowns, who won't modify their list for new players. Yes it's a social contract. Yes both people are supposed to have fun. But frankly, my having fun is in large part my business, and playing the list I WANT TO RUN is a large part of that. Just like I have no business telling my opponent what to run. So get off your high horse.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: I had a lot of fun with my moving hordes of termagants and warriors, sweeping up firing non stop into the defending imperium lines, resolutely prepared to take the charge. Damn that's fun.
Also not a gunline.
OP, Tau Gunline gets a really bad rep but don't let that dissuade you. Your money and time in this hobby so do not let anyone else tell you off/otherwise. Likewise people who don't want to face gun line's do not have to. It's the future where people have super guns, of course you'll want to line them all up and BFG your way to victory!
It's a waste of money if no one wants to play against him because no one likes playing against gunlines.
There ARE people who enjoy playing into gunlines, you can't make such a blanket statement. Yes you hate it, but don't project that into a fact everyone else does.
I'm quite shocked at everyones attitude in this thread, it's a way to play the game and some armies really are built around the idea. There are ways to limit it (Terrain. Lots of it as you should with any war game! A sparse table is the biggest offender) but at the end of the day, people need to realize their own preferences start and end with them, they should not try to influence other players army ideas because *they* don't like what the list would be.
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
It's weird I agree with what you are saying, but your comments feel more appropriate to what you said earlier than to what Spirit Bane said. I like playing against gunlines sometimes, I like playing against all kinds of opponents as it tests my skills in different ways. Gunlines are usually a fairly easy win when I play against them, but that just makes it more challenging for an opponent who is playing a gunline, which, if they enjoy that, is fun.
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Wait...so it's ok for you to force your play style choice on others, but not for someone to play the army style they like?
TIL...
You say you're one of the 'most experienced' players in your group. But you act like a 12 yearold trying to lecture an adult. People will play the army style that appeals to them. I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks. You're also assuming people who play gun-lines are just cheese wallowing butt-clowns, who won't modify their list for new players. Yes it's a social contract. Yes both people are supposed to have fun. But frankly, my having fun is in large part my business, and playing the list I WANT TO RUN is a large part of that. Just like I have no business telling my opponent what to run. So get off your high horse.
So trying to ensure my opponent has a good time is acting like a 12 year old? Cope harder. If you primary argument is "you're a bad person for trying to be a good opponent" then I dunno what to say.
Its attitudes like this that makes online gaming such cancer because everyone is just out for themselves. The game is a SOCIAL experience. Meaning that the person across the table from you wants to have fun as well, preferably with you. I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback. Stuff like that is the reason I never bring more than two kataphron gun bots. People's faces sink when I fire just two of them and that feels crappy for me as well. I can't imagine god awful playing against 6 or 8 of them would be for some random sod who just wanted to have fun with his metal Grey Knights hes had since 5th Ed.
When you play 40k you SHOULD be entering a social contract where you try to make the game as fun as possible for everyone involved, not just thinking "I had fun and thats all that matters".
Wait...so it's ok for you to force your play style choice on others, but not for someone to play the army style they like?
TIL...
You say you're one of the 'most experienced' players in your group. But you act like a 12 yearold trying to lecture an adult. People will play the army style that appeals to them. I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks. You're also assuming people who play gun-lines are just cheese wallowing butt-clowns, who won't modify their list for new players. Yes it's a social contract. Yes both people are supposed to have fun. But frankly, my having fun is in large part my business, and playing the list I WANT TO RUN is a large part of that. Just like I have no business telling my opponent what to run. So get off your high horse.
So trying to ensure my opponent has a good time is acting like a 12 year old? Cope harder. If you primary argument is "you're a bad person for trying to be a good opponent" then I dunno what to say.
You obviously need to reread my post.
My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Mmmpi wrote: Well, running straight forward, penis first into the enemy is technically a tactic.
It's how I became a dad!
Best thing about this thread XD
@ OP - I think almost every faction(apart from Eldar/DE/NIDS) can deliver some sort effective of gun-line line up. I think it becomes a question of how big a proportion of your army you want to be in backfield being 'an actual gunline'??
WIth objectives and such, you are unlikely to win without some moving parts to score objectives. One of the issues I find with Tau, is if you ignore their big scary stuff and kill all of the point scoring fire warriors & kill of their marker light support their gunline elements fall apart very quickly as they are forced to move. This in principle applies to all static armies. I dont think its bad or good. It just is. In the 41st millenium where everyone has guns you'd sort of expect people to stand still and shoot IMO.
I recently watched a bat rep: Black Legion Vs G-man marines. Both armies were a bit gun liney.
I think chaos can really do some fun stuff. The more I think about it the more I lean towards chaos as my next army.. You got a lot of options: Abbadon/DP for re-rolls, lord discordant with forge fiends/decimators/dreads etc.. Throw in some DP/Sorcerer for psychic shenanighans and you can have some fun. New Oblitz are pretty sweet models to and you can DS them in to be a pain. Nice roster.
The marines seem to be a of hellblasters with banner one trick pony and seemed a bit lacklustre. However centurions and aggressors are also cool and cool models.
Also a fan of necrons. Immortals + destroyers & wraith with some bikes appeals to me. Not exactly a static gunline but more like a slowly advancing wall of death... Whats not to like! .
The above poster is correct. Try to take care of your important stuff with armies like tau. Hiding your marker lights by using characters mostly that utilize marker lights to taking care of your fire warriors and using them effectively.
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use? I want to see how non-gunline it is. I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'. If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep. I define that as - Doesn't like to move, lots of big guns and rolls lots of dice in the shooting phase and is not active/good in the remaining phases.
I am actually really curious how you've managed to have success with guard army and not be a static gunline and see how fun it looks to play against.
Argive wrote: Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use?
I don't feel like typing up a whole list, but as a rough picture it would be a core of Tallarn tank commanders (with the JSJ order for extra mobility) supported by DKoK engineers with Hades drills, plasma grenadiers (usually with transports), various aircraft, and soon a squad or two of death riders. Sure, I'll often also have an artillery tank or three sitting in the back but the majority of the army is expecting to move around the table to claim objectives and set up better shots.
OK, folks, back on track, please. The topic was specifically asking for lists. Feel free to discuss the merits or lack thereof of gunlines vs other playstyles elsewhere, and leave the pot-stirring at home.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm one of the most experienced players in my group and it's easy to write lists or play the game in such a way that stomps the newer guys who just started playing when 8th brought them back. If I feel like a list it too "hard" I'll tone it back (incidentally I generally try to write lists that will be fun to put on the board, from both perspectives without being a walkover). If I feel like my opponent isn't having fun I'll change how I'm playing to give him opportunities to make a comeback.
I won't rewrite a list, but I will make deliberate accidents. "Oh Man, I forgot about that unit in the corner for the past three turns. Oh well they couldn't have done very much (sitting next to buy not capturing 2 objective markers)." I know what would have happened if I'd "remembered" it. Chances are they know what would have happened, but there's no need to rub their nose in it like a puppy that peed on the carpet. Sometimes it's not even something they did wrong, just the luck of the dice, and that's doubly not worth grinding it in on them. There, but for the grace of God, go I.
As for asking for lists, I asked him what he thought a gun line castle was and does. Those are things everyone kind of agrees on, but not exactly. Does a castle move? High or low model count? There's a basic flaw in the question - the subjectivity of the words fun, gun line, and castle. Are/Can we use literal castles like the Forgeworld Realm of Battle Space Marine Castellum tile or mutliple Bastions and bunkers? Or does it have to be mobile with Land Raiders and Repulsors? Does it have to be a horde like orks? Can/Should it use supporting Psykers or skip the psychic phase entirely?
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use?
I want to see how non-gunline it is.
I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'.
If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep.
I define that as - Doesn't like to move, lots of big guns and rolls lots of dice in the shooting phase and is not active/good in the remaining phases.
I am actually really curious how you've managed to have success with guard army and not be a static gunline and see how fun it looks to play against.
IG and Tau can both make very mobile lists. Scions deep striking in everywhere, chimeras delivering vets and bullgryns etc. Static gun lines are just no brainer poiny and click lists so people tend to default to that style.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use?
I want to see how non-gunline it is.
I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'.
If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep.
I think IG *can* be a gunline army but it doesn't *need* to be.
If you play Cadia and fill your list with artillery, sure, you'll probably end up with a gunline.
However, there are many other ways to play IG:
- Scions for backfield deep-strikes close to or behind enemy lines.
- Tallarn infantry with few or no heavy weapons that end up being almost as fast as Eldar.
- Tallarn tanks/Sentinels/transports are all very mobile.
- Armageddon transport-based lists.
- Catachan melee or semi-melee lists.
etc.
Put simply, whilst IG can form the quintessential gunline, they are in no way limited to playing that way.
I run my Death Korps as a partial-gunline. I've caught a couple of players by surprise when it doesn't play the way they expect.
The list has four components:
-Infantry, to advance and seize objectives, and interdict enemy units
-Heavy weapon teams and artillery, to stay static and provide fire
-Mobile elements (Centaur w/ Grenadiers, Death Riders) to put pressure where unexpected
-Dirty tricks (Cyclops, Hades w/ Engineers) to do heavy damage and then die gloriously
The core third of the army (by points) stays static, but the rest is either on the move or coming in via abnormal deployment method. You can make a gunline interesting, it just has to have elements other than the gunline.
Mmmpi wrote: My primary argument is that you're trying to dictate someone else's playstyle based on your homegrown scrub rules, and that playing a gunline is far different from ignoring the social contract.
Since when did "both players should be having fun" become scrub rules, especially in a thread where the OP asked for a list that would be fun?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I don't even see the difference between getting killed by las guns, or getting killed by 6,000,000,000 berzerker chainaxe attacks.
Please don't move the goalposts. Being killed by lasguns is not the issue. Lasguns can be used by mobile units that create an interactive game that is fun for both players. The issue is not shooting-focused lists, it's gunlines that castle up in the back corner and ignore 90% of the game so they can mindlessly roll shooting dice until someone wins.
Peregrine - You play guard don't you, care to post a guard list you normally use? I want to see how non-gunline it is. I genuinely see IG as the very definition of 'gunline army'. If someone asked me what "static gunline" means I would point at IG/tau and say: 'these guys' and make them watch a bat rep. I define that as - Doesn't like to move, lots of big guns and rolls lots of dice in the shooting phase and is not active/good in the remaining phases.
I am actually really curious how you've managed to have success with guard army and not be a static gunline and see how fun it looks to play against.
IG and Tau can both make very mobile lists. Scions deep striking in everywhere, chimeras delivering vets and bullgryns etc. Static gun lines are just no brainer poiny and click lists so people tend to default to that style.
Ok... keyword is 'can'. Both of these armies have very heavy gun line elements at their disposal and excel at the role. That is a fact (compared to say khorne/DE). Wether or not individuals choose to play their army that way or not is obviously up to them. Of course I'm not saying the entire army of a given faction HAS to be run as a gunline. However It's usually considered at its optimal with a gunline leaning composition taking up a big chunk of the points...
The point I'm trying to make is that no army stands still shoots and doesn't move at all and wins. Some armies naturally lean towards investing in a solid heavy gun back-line which is 'static' as that is their strong point I.E. "Big powerful guns lots of shots and point efficient". The ratio varies from player to player but this element is present in nearly all armies ESEPCIALY IG & TAU. Cmon man you going to tell me that tank commanders/Weapons teams/artilery etc. Doesn't constitute a heavy gunline element with supporting/screening infantry? Ok...
In a game of scoring and holding objectives you just cannot sit still, roll to shoot and do nothing else. Thats just a falacy... Unless someones not playing to win of course and just wants a tabling. In which case it doesn't matter if you get tabled by a gunline because you are going to be wining the points game and isin't that the objective? Especially if you play with a suitable amount of terrain. So I really don't get what the issue is that is causing people to be so obnoxiously toxic... Models not moving and shooting is part of the game. Some armies do it in bigger proportions to other armies.
Anyway. As the OP asked for a list, I have come up with this on my first try. My armies are usualy a bit more mobile and have wraith CC elemnts and I don't think CWE do particularly well at being static. therefore I don't think you'd win very many games but I think this might be a bit of fun to play.
ing gunline in a friendly game". Sometimes the answer to a question is that the idea is bad and should be abandoned, and it's silly to complain about "negativity" because you don't like that answer. In this case the "negativity" preserves the 
there are quite alot of random elemets if you don't go too competetive, so not every game will feel the same.