The graphics do look rather cheap. I guess this is what ends up messing a lot of the smaller competition, lack of skill/budget to make the thing look legit.
I'll admit I've not followed the Twitch link however this really looks like a hoax to me, I think? 'Grimdark', '40k style' and 'Age of...' seem a bit on the nose. Somebody is trolling the Warmahordes community, surely? On the other hand, good luck if this turns out to be real! :O
Take all of this with a grain of salt as to the specifics.
But if they're so brazenly following 40k with not even their own more interesting take, well, that's a big sign that the new CEO is making some big changes.
I do like a lot of the ideas for Warmachine 5k as presented, but they should not try to chase too closely on the coat tails of 40k to do so.
I also thought it sounded like a hoax, but the source is from PP themselves right? The cheap graphics and the nature of what they are doing (copying the WFB End Times plotline, making a new "Age of" thing, and copying 40K) seem so outlandish and weird that it feels like trolling.
In my area it was the release of Mk3, it just collapsed entirely. Local shop sold off all their stock, can barely find PP stuff nowadays even in other cities.
Da Boss wrote: In my area it was the release of Mk3, it just collapsed entirely. Local shop sold off all their stock, can barely find PP stuff nowadays even in other cities.
At salute this year PP stuff was on heavy discount bins and still not moving… Was this a case of PP starters with horrible materials, overall high prices and GW actually making a kill.
I just find it weird that it was such a quick shift from good game to no one cares.
Yeah, I was shocked too. I started in Mk1 when it was pretty new, definitely new in Dublin, and only really dropped out a few years ago when I moved country and my models all got broken. Last year I finally repair them all and went looking to see what the local scene was like and it was a total wasteland.
Seems like a bunch of poor decisions one after another combined with really ridiculous pricing (I always felt PP got off too lightly in the pricing arguments, per model they were ludicrous) and a shift to a new edition where it was much more "build this entire army to this specific theme" than the previous "pick up whatever models you like, and run them with this warlock. Want a new playstyle? Buy 1 new warlock and you are done." At the same time they shut down their forums, stopped communicating with fans as much and just seemed to compound errors. This unfortunately happened for them at the same time that GW was starting to release stuff people actually wanted to buy, and it seems to have eviscerated them except for among their dedicated fanbase.
Da Boss wrote: In my area it was the release of Mk3, it just collapsed entirely. Local shop sold off all their stock, can barely find PP stuff nowadays even in other cities.
At salute this year PP stuff was on heavy discount bins and still not moving… Was this a case of PP starters with horrible materials, overall high prices and GW actually making a kill.
I just find it weird that it was such a quick shift from good game to no one cares.
I live in St. Louis, Missouri, home to Miniaturemarket and multiple game stores. The rules for Mk III killed the game, along with PP trying to be like GW in limiting retailers discounts, material woes and GW knocking the ball out of the park with games like Shadespire and a resurgence in AOS. The big discount dump at Miniaturemarket came when PP moved warehouses and sold stuff for dirt cheap. I don’t know if they massively overestimated sales and had the inventory, or if the rules just killed it, but I don’t see much life left in it. I still see games at the FLGS, but way more games of AT, Shadespire/NightVault and AoS happening on the tables and on the events calendar.
Scrub wrote: I'll admit I've not followed the Twitch link however this really looks like a hoax to me, I think? 'Grimdark', '40k style' and 'Age of...' seem a bit on the nose. Somebody is trolling the Warmahordes community, surely? On the other hand, good luck if this turns out to be real! :O
I thought similar, but I watched the twitch video and it’s real. They didn’t mention 40k style or anything like that themselves though (from what I remember), that’s just whoever wrote that up adding that.
Why did MKIII kill the game ? I had 150 point Ashlynn theme force under mkii that suddenly wasn’t usable. PP sold a ton of new mkiii card decks then decided to make print on demand cards free within a few months. Retailers were short on the new starters and new rulebooks. The much lauded play testing looked to have actually been a bunch of hyper PP fans sucking up to the dev team and suggesting the game was perfect. Introducing pre measure removed some skill from the game and lengthened casual play.
I don't think Mk3 really killed the game. I think is was dying before then. New players weren't coming in and old players were all fickle power gamers. Most of them never painted their models and often didn't even bother buying the models and just using proxies half the time. Mk3 pissed off the old players, but WMH could've survived if there were literally any players other than old players. Mk3 was just a catalyst that sped up the inevitable. We all saw it coming.
I like what WMH is doing now, for the most part, like the Oblivion narrative expansion, but I think the game is still limited by a bunch of awful legacy models, legacy rules, and those few old guard sticking around preventing the game from being something simpler and broader. I'm kind of happy though, since I'm not sure we'd be getting Monsterpocalypse if WMH was still doing as well as it used to.
Warcasters is a chance for PP to go back to what made WMH interesting in the first place. Fewer models, more streamlined rules, more focused on jacks and warcasters. They have an opportunity to drop the streamroller obsession and create a game that new players don't have to lose their first 50 games of and buy specific combinations of models just to not get laughed off the table. Hell, I think the smartest thing PP can do with the new game is to wholesale "borrow" GW's Three Ways to Play - a new pg5 declaration that the game doesn't revolve around tournament-style players.
So, I'm actually kind of excited for Warcasters. I see it as an opportunity to finally get the WMH game that I wanted (and initially had with Mk1). Maybe 5 years later, it'll turn out like WMH again, because I'm not sure PP can help themselves, but for those first 5 years, it'll be pretty awesome.
Da Boss wrote:Yeah, I was shocked too. I started in Mk1 when it was pretty new, definitely new in Dublin, and only really dropped out a few years ago when I moved country and my models all got broken. Last year I finally repair them all and went looking to see what the local scene was like and it was a total wasteland.
Seems like a bunch of poor decisions one after another combined with really ridiculous pricing (I always felt PP got off too lightly in the pricing arguments, per model they were ludicrous) and a shift to a new edition where it was much more "build this entire army to this specific theme" than the previous "pick up whatever models you like, and run them with this warlock. Want a new playstyle? Buy 1 new warlock and you are done." At the same time they shut down their forums, stopped communicating with fans as much and just seemed to compound errors. This unfortunately happened for them at the same time that GW was starting to release stuff people actually wanted to buy, and it seems to have eviscerated them except for among their dedicated fanbase.
I totally forgot about that forums closed and no communication. Wow that was really poor. No wonder no buzz around it anymore. This was a lot about tight rules and games more than nice minis to paint, so if they dropped the ball with the ruleset they will be in a world of pain.
Da Boss wrote: In my area it was the release of Mk3, it just collapsed entirely. Local shop sold off all their stock, can barely find PP stuff nowadays even in other cities.
At salute this year PP stuff was on heavy discount bins and still not moving… Was this a case of PP starters with horrible materials, overall high prices and GW actually making a kill.
I just find it weird that it was such a quick shift from good game to no one cares.
I live in St. Louis, Missouri, home to Miniaturemarket and multiple game stores. The rules for Mk III killed the game, along with PP trying to be like GW in limiting retailers discounts, material woes and GW knocking the ball out of the park with games like Shadespire and a resurgence in AOS. The big discount dump at Miniaturemarket came when PP moved warehouses and sold stuff for dirt cheap. I don’t know if they massively overestimated sales and had the inventory, or if the rules just killed it, but I don’t see much life left in it. I still see games at the FLGS, but way more games of AT, Shadespire/NightVault and AoS happening on the tables and on the events calendar.
It begs the question is there any good faith left for people to pick up this new game?
Screw up with retailers and your clients does not seem the right way to go about this.
I haven’t seen anyone play warmahordes in years at the local game store.
Warmahordes has gone from being the only real competitor to 40k/warhammer to a footnote. Their models have not evolved since the original release (sculpt style, level of detail, etc).
It seems like even for folks who liked the aesthetic the move to v3 killed things, in my are at least.
Either/Or wrote: I haven’t seen anyone play warmahordes in years at the local game store.
Warmahordes has gone from being the only real competitor to 40k/warhammer to a footnote. Their models have not evolved since the original release (sculpt style, level of detail, etc).
It seems like even for folks who liked the aesthetic the move to v3 killed things, in my are at least.
I disagree about the sculpts, they’ve got a lot better since the start in my opinion.
@NAVARRO, I think it’s a trend of the times, so many new systems popping up every year, but nothing will get to GW level as close as this did. Games need development time and checking before hitting the market, otherwise they quickly go to a second edition to fix problems and people have already gotten fed up with those problems or feel their army gets scuttled after the edition rewrite and have to shell out more for new booms and accessories. I know that’s what’s killed two skirmish games for myself. I’ve built entire range of products for two warband a and to play the new edition I need to rebuy the core rules, new cards (for all the clans because of crossover and knowing your opponents) and in one case new dice. I don’t mind an evolving system, but I’m against one that invalidates the previous one.
GW gets away with it because older models are still viable (though the new ones are better) and wherever you go most game stores will have people to play against.
Either/Or wrote: I haven’t seen anyone play warmahordes in years at the local game store.
Warmahordes has gone from being the only real competitor to 40k/warhammer to a footnote.
WMH was a real competitor to what 40k USED to be like, but that approach to wargaming is more or less diminishing to the point of irrelevance. GW has successfully shoved tournament gamers off into their own little corner, while push more skirmish and campaign play overall. The future of wargaming seems to be as much solo/cooperative experiences as competitive ones. And even if PP hadn't done everything wrong they possible could with WMH, that style of gaming is just not as omnipresent as it used to be. PP's Oblivion campaign expansion shows that they understand this, but it is probably too little, too late to save WMH as a whole.
Their models have not evolved since the original release (sculpt style, level of detail, etc).
Are you joking? They started with decent models (metal), went to absolutely the worst models in the business (PVC), and now have high quality resign models. They even dabbled in polystyrene models on sprues. Their resin models are worlds better than their PVC models. Even just talking aesthetic, you've got the original four factions, then the move to hordes, then stuff like the Grymkin and now Infernals. Their models have been constantly evolving - unfortunately, they evolved into dog poo for a while there and it has taken them a long time to evolve back into something worthwhile.
It seems like even for folks who liked the aesthetic the move to v3 killed things, in my are at least.
If you listen to people talk about the game, a lot of WMH players left before mk3 happened. Hell, most new players left by their second game. It was the least new player friendly game on the market, and the vast majority of people who tried the game didn't keep playing it. I'd be curious what the real number is, but I suspect that of every 10 people who tried the game, only 2 of them made it to a second game, and of those, only 1 of them made it to 5+ games. The typical advice for new Warmachine players is a bit Spartan - you'll lose your first twenty games badly.
they were on a slow downslope before MKIII so they introduced it early,
the MKIII made it worse and in doing so chased off some stores & core players who organised and ran things (especially one of the WM factions which were effectively unplayable and took ages to get a rewrite,
they'd invested heavily in Restic/PVC which while it was good in the short term but which is less good than HIPs and as technology evolved smaller companies were able to afford HIPs and PP were stuck with a lot of restic moulds, some metal, (some resin?) and eventually the odd bit of HIPS
they killed their forums and press gangers at the same time, and that had a major impact on organised play which is what they built their game on and a lot more of their key local 'sell the game to newbies' power vanished, and so a lot of stores stopped getting new stock in as it stopped selling, vicious circle
They depended on recruiting ex-GW players, and GW turned the corner and stopped looses people and probably started attracting some of their old players back
Lots more competition from small games and KS/boardgames
Theophony wrote: @NAVARRO, I think it’s a trend of the times, so many new systems popping up every year, but nothing will get to GW level as close as this did. Games need development time and checking before hitting the market, otherwise they quickly go to a second edition to fix problems and people have already gotten fed up with those problems or feel their army gets scuttled after the edition rewrite and have to shell out more for new booms and accessories. I know that’s what’s killed two skirmish games for myself. I’ve built entire range of products for two warband a and to play the new edition I need to rebuy the core rules, new cards (for all the clans because of crossover and knowing your opponents) and in one case new dice. I don’t mind an evolving system, but I’m against one that invalidates the previous one.
GW gets away with it because older models are still viable (though the new ones are better) and wherever you go most game stores will have people to play against.
It does not help that GW released plenty of their own skirmish games either. If you really want your game to stand out these days is going to need something really special.
I remember not long ago the hype around each original new PP release as opposed to GW releases which were stagnant, now the roles inverted and I fear the worst for PP. They did try with the Malifax halloween type of new faction but that was SO BAD, almost like… hey guys we are out of ideas but buy the new thing!
I still think theres space for war machine ( nice multipart plastic sprues would rock so much) but not sure about this new game I mean I rather invest in other stuff instead, there is something very wrong going on with PPatm and a new game is not going to fix that alone.
Either/Or wrote: I haven’t seen anyone play warmahordes in years at the local game store.
Warmahordes has gone from being the only real competitor to 40k/warhammer to a footnote.
WMH was a real competitor to what 40k USED to be like, but that approach to wargaming is more or less diminishing to the point of irrelevance. GW has successfully shoved tournament gamers off into their own little corner, while push more skirmish and campaign play overall. The future of wargaming seems to be as much solo/cooperative experiences as competitive ones. And even if PP hadn't done everything wrong they possible could with WMH, that style of gaming is just not as omnipresent as it used to be. PP's Oblivion campaign expansion shows that they understand this, but it is probably too little, too late to save WMH as a whole.
Their models have not evolved since the original release (sculpt style, level of detail, etc).
Are you joking? They started with decent models (metal), went to absolutely the worst models in the business (PVC), and now have high quality resign models. They even dabbled in polystyrene models on sprues. Their resin models are worlds better than their PVC models. Even just talking aesthetic, you've got the original four factions, then the move to hordes, then stuff like the Grymkin and now Infernals. Their models have been constantly evolving - unfortunately, they evolved into dog poo for a while there and it has taken them a long time to evolve back into something worthwhile.
It seems like even for folks who liked the aesthetic the move to v3 killed things, in my are at least.
If you listen to people talk about the game, a lot of WMH players left before mk3 happened. Hell, most new players left by their second game. It was the least new player friendly game on the market, and the vast majority of people who tried the game didn't keep playing it. I'd be curious what the real number is, but I suspect that of every 10 people who tried the game, only 2 of them made it to a second game, and of those, only 1 of them made it to 5+ games. The typical advice for new Warmachine players is a bit Spartan - you'll lose your first twenty games badly.
Mk3 didn't kill the game. Mk2 killed the game.
I agree about the mk2/mk3. The height of popularity was the end of mk1. Mk2 was the knife, mk 3 the twist.
Regarding model evolution I was speaking broadly-even the new sculpts looked like something from the late 90s-early 2000s. They did have good faction identity in terms of style.
Models evolved some for the worse others for the better, some got cast in subpar materials though, so irrelevant if the sculpt quality was good if the medium used does not meet minimums standards. Not exactly the painters unicorn but fun enough to make a presence on your painting table…
Thing is, I barely see any news of new minis, hell some boutique small tiny companies make more noise about their new models than PP does, its almost like they don't care… so why should I?
I'm kind of interested - the idea of having a WM-type game but with smaller unit sizes and no gak material and 15 year old metal models killing whatever interest I had in getting started.
I was super pumped about Company of Iron and bought some of the (at the time) brand new Grymkin models to make a little warband - cleaning and assembling that god-awful PVC 100% killed my desire. (That and the nice, simple rules became a bloated mess as they added more and more to the game in every issue of NQ).
I really wish they'd just "nuke" WM/H and start over though (with smaller unit sizes, simplified rules, etc) and prune the range of some of the redundant units and actually work on replacing old metals and PVC stuff with modern resculpts.
I still think theres space for war machine ( nice multipart plastic sprues would rock so much) but not sure about this new game I mean I rather invest in other stuff instead, there is something very wrong going on with PPatm and a new game is not going to fix that alone.
I think PP has been on the upswing. Warmachine is an albatross around their neck, but Monsterpocalypse is amazing (models and gameplay) and their mini-crate stuff seems pretty cool (a bit expensive though). I think the Oblivion expansion is a move in the right direction (narrative campaigns... in WMH?!) along with a tightening of the rulebook for what a lot of people consider to be mk3.5. They are even laying off the CID changes for a while. Riot Quest is a big question mark though. I just don't know if the market needs Shadespire, Aristeia, Super Fantasy Brawl, AND Riot Quest...
Personally, I don't think they can save WMH, as is, without going full on 8th Edition rewrite on it, but that's probably why they are launching Warcasters in 2020.
I can see some potential with this new game, but pushing the timeline forward 5k years doesn’t get me excited. I can only hope this proves lucrative for them.
A lot of folks have presented interesting points as to why PP has seen a decline.
I think the forum and press granger loss was certainly a factor.
I personally thought MK3 was an improvement over MK2, but it did feel rushed.
I never got into their ‘X-files’ inspired sci-fi stuff, and most of their other board games seemed to kind of fall flat to me.
The bad plastic they had, when GW was switching off of metal hurt too, even in the face of finecast. The price gouging turn, where they blocked a bunch of places selling stuff cheaper online was bad. If it had made more LGS’ stock more stuff, I’d have been fine with it, but they literally purged everything they had, right when that happened. The biggest LGS near me in Los Angeles doesn’t even stock PP stuff anymore. And this was a place that used to have warmahorde & Monsterpocalypse gaming groups and tournies, just a few years ago. Exiling the old plastic Monsterpocalypse figures to the isle of misfit toys was a bad move too.
The newer stuff looks promising. Though not all of it excites me personally, it’s still a step forward.
I still think theres space for war machine ( nice multipart plastic sprues would rock so much) but not sure about this new game I mean I rather invest in other stuff instead, there is something very wrong going on with PPatm and a new game is not going to fix that alone.
I think PP has been on the upswing. Warmachine is an albatross around their neck, but Monsterpocalypse is amazing (models and gameplay) and their mini-crate stuff seems pretty cool (a bit expensive though). I think the Oblivion expansion is a move in the right direction (narrative campaigns... in WMH?!) along with a tightening of the rulebook for what a lot of people consider to be mk3.5. They are even laying off the CID changes for a while. Riot Quest is a big question mark though. I just don't know if the market needs Shadespire, Aristeia, Super Fantasy Brawl, AND Riot Quest...
Personally, I don't think they can save WMH, as is, without going full on 8th Edition rewrite on it, but that's probably why they are launching Warcasters in 2020.
I have yet to locally see any signs of PP slowing down. maybe we are an anomoly on this side of the rockies, but PP pretty much runs the show, with guild ball being the only game to see more table time. I would guess that some places its doing poorly, some its not. of the 8 or so FLGS around here, only 2 really carry any GW (and one is the GW), and all but the GW carries PP. Malifaux on the other hand (one of my personal favorites) seems extinct.
Exiling the old plastic Monsterpocalypse figures to the isle of misfit toys was a bad move too.
I don't think anybody but PP knows what happened with MonPoc 1E, but I don't think it was PP's decision. They were very verbal about the game on their blog, and had shown designs and green stuff models-in-progress for the next set of models, then nothing - absolute radio silence for YEARS, not even admitting that the game existed. It was so frustrating and weird. Some people blame the movie rights being optioned, but nobody knows for sure. PP has never said.
I don't get it. Is this announcement about the end of Privateer Press or their new game ? Why all the doom and gloom if this is the second instance ?
After all, it's not the first time PP launch another game more or less related to Warmachine's universe.
So, it's a SF game, clearly skirmish level with the possibility to make your own character ? Heh, why not. I was always annoyed that you were forced to play with the same old named characters like every battle in Warmachine/Horde was led by one of them. Though it's a bit weird they keep calling themselves warcasters five thousand years later, but you have to remind people it's the guys who made Warmachine who are behind this game, I guess.
Kinda neither? Its a re-posting of a summary of a twitch announcement, with very little detail, so people are reminiscing about what they know about PP.
As far as Sci-War (5k? It is going to need a subtitle, because the official title is gak) goes, its pretty confusing to have 'warcasters' with no magic. Those would be jack marshals- that's already a canonical thing.
Anyway, I seem to remember them kicking this idea around for a while, back when they had message boards and a fanbase. That and a naval game got rumored a lot.
Once they start releasing images and rules, we'll see if its worth paying attention to.
I think they dropped the ball with the announcement by not having some artwork to show what the setting will be like as people are going to do just what was at the start of this thread and fill in their own idea and ultimately be disappointed because it wasn't what they were imagining.
Gonna have to see some artwork at least before I jump to any conclusions.
I've always enjoyed Privateer's models. Maybe we'll get some Space Skorne? I still want a Xerxis resculpt of some sort and I don't care where he shows up.
The core problem of Warmachine is that games have a finite lifespan and it has reached its natural death around the middle of Mk2. Everything after that was just artificial life support adding stupid nonsense to the game when all meaningful design space had already been filled. Only GW seems to be able to reinvent the wheel ad nauseam and a lot of that is down to its massive production capacity that allows it to support more than a dozen factions per system and a clunky but wide open ruleset that allows for an infinite variety of units at the cost of tactical depth and balance.
lord_blackfang wrote: The core problem of Warmachine is that games have a finite lifespan and it has reached its natural death around the middle of Mk2. Everything after that was just artificial life support adding stupid nonsense to the game when all meaningful design space had already been filled. Only GW seems to be able to reinvent the wheel ad nauseam and a lot of that is down to its massive production capacity that allows it to support more than a dozen factions per system and a clunky but wide open ruleset that allows for an infinite variety of units at the cost of tactical depth and balance.
I don't really agree with the lifespan thing, too many games have carried on over the years.
Their big problem was (both at the end of mk1 and during mk3 development) was an inability to restrain themselves. A lot of the mechanics were messy, and they needed multiple paragraphs and sub-clauses to make them work as intended. For all that people applauded them for having a 'tight ruleset,' they really didn't. They just ironed problems flat with word salad- which is why the 'run' rule (double move, no other actions) is three flipping paragraphs long. Infinite variety isn't what I think of in warmachine. Its a clunky system with specific areas of focus- speed, high Defense, high armor, high damage or gimmicks to get around one or more of the above. The useful units are very samey, regardless of what faction they're in, and a lot of even the unique abilities are just copypasta, except better or worse. (for example, knockdown everybody vs knockdown everybody who isn't amphibious)
That and just the way the game was built made units clearly divide into 'must take' and 'never take,' and the company promoted that mindset for a long, long time. Up until they purged their forums and fanbase of folks who played as they obviously intended.
So remember when a number of designers suddenly left the company several months ago? Suspect this may have been the reason.
This still feels like a bad April Fools joke and if it weren't for the video, I would think that.
Don't know if this is them trying to pull a hail mary by tossing out their old players and starting anew? But as others noted, it's no longer the early 2000's. For those that don't want GW, there is a slew of others games and for trying to be like GW, there's GW.
silent25 wrote: So remember when a number of designers suddenly left the company several months ago? Suspect this may have been the reason.
This still feels like a bad April Fools joke and if it weren't for the video, I would think that.
Don't know if this is them trying to pull a hail mary by tossing out their old players and starting anew? But as others noted, it's no longer the early 2000's. For those that don't want GW, there is a slew of others games and for trying to be like GW, there's GW.
Remember that other company that Tossed out their old players/collectors and then launched a completely (drastically) new version (this time, with pre-painted plastics made in China)?
Where is Rackham and Confrontation nowadays? (You don’t have to answer, and if you don’t know or remember...look em up).
There’s a little more to it that’s that, and this isn’t exactly the same situation, but alienating your existing fan-base usually doesn’t bode well. GW had a rough start with AoS, with lots of disenfranchised WFB players shouting their displeasure quite emphatically....GW was able to weather that and throw tons more time and resources at it to improve it over time...but they had 40K and all of their Nostalgia-ware box sets killing it and selling like hot cakes to fund all that. It sounds like PP is hurting financially, especially with the fire-sales, the move, and the personnel reduction (and this, what looks like, Hail Mary announcement).
All that being said, I hope they stick around and make a little bit of a come-back. Competition for GW is a good thing, and I’m a big fan of the Iron Kingdoms as a fantasy IP...it’s really been fleshed out into an amazing place with some amazing stories and personalities.
Warmahorde's popularity was always going to nosedive the moment the word started getting out that GW wasn't actively spitting in your face and kicking you between the legs with every purchase. MKIII could've been the most perfect, well-written ruleset ever, but 90% of people were still going to jump ship to their ex in GW. It took GW to get as bad as it got for people to finally consider looking elsewhere, but when people have already invested thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours into their gateway drug, all it took was GW practising a basic social media presence to tempt most back even before MKIII hit.
Wargames are a social hobby and most people - at least in the UK - were still begrudging slogging with GW products just because they'd already done that for so long. Now their mates had an excuse to join them back at the table. It could've been Warmahordes, Malifaux, Infinity, whatever, but once GW stopped shooting at their feet the coveted position of "second place" was always going to screech far, far into the distance, even if they offered you a literal golden goose to stick around.
Their big problem was (both at the end of mk1 and during mk3 development) was an inability to restrain themselves. A lot of the mechanics were messy, and they needed multiple paragraphs and sub-clauses to make them work as intended. For all that people applauded them for having a 'tight ruleset,' they really didn't. They just ironed problems flat with word salad- which is why the 'run' rule (double move, no other actions) is three flipping paragraphs long.
A problem GW games "solved" by telling players to "roll off for it" whilst simultaneously still being far more wordy until AoS / 40k 8th. Given the far greater complexity of interactions, Warmachine worked well.
Infinite variety isn't what I think of in warmachine. Its a clunky system with specific areas of focus- speed, high Defense, high armor, high damage or gimmicks to get around one or more of the above. The useful units are very samey, regardless of what faction they're in, and a lot of even the unique abilities are just copypasta, except better or worse. (for example, knockdown everybody vs knockdown everybody who isn't amphibious)
That and just the way the game was built made units clearly divide into 'must take' and 'never take,' and the company promoted that mindset for a long, long time. Up until they purged their forums and fanbase of folks who played as they obviously intended.
But that's exactly what I meant. They filled all the available design space, after that it was just adding stupid things like marginal variants of old units. Once that happens, a game becomes effectively unsupported, because the company is no longer injecting any fresh gameplay experiences into the system, even if they are still releasing new models. That's when games die. There are almost no games that have survived beyond this point in any real capacity.
Fango wrote: GW had a rough start with AoS, with lots of disenfranchised WFB players shouting their displeasure quite emphatically...
Yeah, but... water is also wet, right?
AoS was a brave move that they had the resources to pull off. Yeah, internet-based complainants complained but they were also breathing, so what else did anyone expect them to do? At least AoS gave them something tangible to complain about.
PPcould play a blinder with this if they handle it "better" (although I actually don't think GW handled AoS badly. Warhammer was dying and they decided it was better to put a crossbow bolt through it's skull instead of allowing it to limp along for another decade). If it's really true that Warmahordes has been basically abandoned then what harm can this do? They can use the original game as a stepping-off point to create an entirely new game system with a unique style and aesthetic of its own.
I actually tried to get into Warmachine/Hordes a few years back. Bought the two main starter sets as well as a bunch of blisters and boxed units. I enjoyed painting them up, but the plastic material ("Restic"?) was awful and an absolute pain to work with. Beyond that, I wasn't hugely taken by the game mechanics, and ended up really seeing it as a hugely overcooked card game with a miniature aspect bolted on... I liked it, but I wasn't hugely blown away by it. Then I bought into Infinity and forgot about it.
I don't really know what WNM can bring to the table that'll solve Privateer's basic problems. The writeup suggests they're still using the basic warcaster and jacks army composition, and presumably something of the old character designs will remain as well. If this will just be WMH with a weak facelift, it's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I don't really know what WNM can bring to the table that'll solve Privateer's basic problems. The writeup suggests they're still using the basic warcaster and jacks army composition, and presumably something of the old character designs will remain as well. If this will just be WMH with a weak facelift, it's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the core idea of a small skirmish game based around a general, champions and then minions. But there are definitely better ways to do it, ruleswise, than Warmachine.
If it is indeed simply a facelift, retaining the rules, then I'm out straight away.
As a long time WM/H player and a “critical fanboy” of PP I am a little mystified at who the company is aiming this game at. I will hold off any judgement about the game until I actually see 1) Models 2) the prices and 3) the rules for it. But I cant see anybody who is deep into 40K or Infinity etc, jumping ship for a futuristic game made by PP. Anybody who wants to play a game that is as clean but competitive as WM/H is probably already playing it. Existing players of WM/H are a little taken aback and sceptical about this project.
I hope PP does a good job on this. After the disastrous miss-launch of Mk3 they have really pulled it back. But im really not sure about this one.
Honestly I'm just amazed they made it sound as close to themselves making a parody version of Warhammer 40k and Age of Sigmar (Warcaster 5k, AoO) as possible.
They really could've chosen better names to head off the pass with.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Honestly I'm just amazed they made it sound as close to themselves making a parody version of Warhammer 40k and Age of Sigmar (Warcaster 5k, AoO) as possible.
They really could've chosen better names to head off the pass with.
They never called it Warcaster 5k. That’s just what the write up said.
ekwatts wrote: (although I actually don't think GW handled AoS badly. Warhammer was dying and they decided it was better to put a crossbow bolt through it's skull instead of allowing it to limp along for another decade). If it's really true that Warmahordes has been basically abandoned then what harm can this do? They can use the original game as a stepping-off point to create an entirely new game system with a unique style and aesthetic of its own.
More like they wanted an excuse to add Sigmarines to Fantasy, but couldn't find a reasonably way to do it within the bounds of the existing lore, so they just opted to toss the baby out with the bathwater.
AoS coming out of WHFB was far too drastic a move that stemmed from GW - still at the time proudly boasting it didn't listen to customer research - being unwilling to try and understand why it's sales were falling (namely that the barrier to entry and a 2000 army was much, much, much higher than the already expensive 40k due to the way Cores worked and the ruleset being trash below 1000pts). AoS was pretty much dead on arrival, but it flatlined around the time Roundtree took the helm, so they were able to salvage what was left with the General's Handbook. The rest of it's 'success' just came naturally from GW as a whole doing well, but it still holds pretty much the same popularity share compared to 40k as Fantasy did back in the day.
As merciful as I've been on my opinion of PP compared to GW, Warcaster 5000 sounds about as absurd as AoS and not in a good way.
I can't be the only one who see Warcasters as a good opportunity for PP? I just hope the name "warcasters" doesn't become as ironic as "warmachine" did.
AoS coming out of WHFB was far too drastic a move that stemmed from GW - still at the time proudly boasting it didn't listen to customer research - being unwilling to try and understand why it's sales were falling (namely that the barrier to entry and a 2000 army was much, much, much higher than the already expensive 40k due to the way Cores worked and the ruleset being trash below 1000pts). AoS was pretty much dead on arrival, but it flatlined around the time Roundtree took the helm, so they were able to salvage what was left with the General's Handbook. The rest of it's 'success' just came naturally from GW as a whole doing well, but it still holds pretty much the same popularity share compared to 40k as Fantasy did back in the day.
As merciful as I've been on my opinion of PP compared to GW, Warcaster 5000 sounds about as absurd as AoS and not in a good way.
Woah. I think we're far enough from the launch of AoS, with enough hindsight to see that AoS was probably the smartest and most important thing GW has ever done. Not only did it become the blueprint for the popular 8th edition of 40k, but it also set the standard for the way GW made its games. That whole "Three Ways to Play" was extremely important, and it came from Age of Sigmar. But they had to codify the idea that "sometimes, this isn't for you" so that the whiners finally got it through their skulls that the world didn't revolve around what they alone wanted. Adding pitched battle profiles was basically them handing a lollypop to a kid with a skinned knee - it didn't "salvage" the game. It just made the crying kid stop crying, because the boo-boo was already starting to heal on its own and the constant whining made it so the adults in the room couldn't concentrate. AoS hasn't significantly changed from the first 4 page release - there's more options, but the game is essentially the same "dumpster fire" game it always was - only now, AoS is pretty darn popular and liked. Hell, I saw a board game reviewer put Age of Sigmar as his top game of all time just last week, even quoting the dreaded double turn as one of the reasons why.
I hope Warcasters is PP's version of Age of Sigmar. If it is, it would represent a radical new player-orientated focus for the company, give them a blueprint for a better Warmachine 4th edition, bring new players into their games, begin the start of more communication, and make everybody refer to their current times as "the dark times" that PP miraculously emerged from better than ever.
I don’t know how people are hating on Warcaster already when we know so little about it. I mean, a game company is trying to expand and make more games! Clearly GW is in desperate straights to be putting out that new chaos warband game of theirs. And new Apocalypse?! That’s twice the desperation!
It’s a new game that shares the IP of their core game, but set in a different time period. It wants to be more focused on the Battlegroup, and will feature customizable leaders and jacks instead of all set characters and loadouts. None of that sounds terrible yet.
ekwatts wrote: (although I actually don't think GW handled AoS badly. Warhammer was dying and they decided it was better to put a crossbow bolt through it's skull instead of allowing it to limp along for another decade). If it's really true that Warmahordes has been basically abandoned then what harm can this do? They can use the original game as a stepping-off point to create an entirely new game system with a unique style and aesthetic of its own.
More like they wanted an excuse to add Sigmarines to Fantasy, but couldn't find a reasonably way to do it within the bounds of the existing lore, so they just opted to toss the baby out with the bathwater.
AoS coming out of WHFB was far too drastic a move that stemmed from GW - still at the time proudly boasting it didn't listen to customer research - being unwilling to try and understand why it's sales were falling (namely that the barrier to entry and a 2000 army was much, much, much higher than the already expensive 40k due to the way Cores worked and the ruleset being trash below 1000pts). AoS was pretty much dead on arrival, but it flatlined around the time Roundtree took the helm, so they were able to salvage what was left with the General's Handbook. The rest of it's 'success' just came naturally from GW as a whole doing well, but it still holds pretty much the same popularity share compared to 40k as Fantasy did back in the day.
As merciful as I've been on my opinion of PP compared to GW, Warcaster 5000 sounds about as absurd as AoS and not in a good way.
lol no.
Warhammer was dead.
AoS is the opposite of dead.
GW did the right thing in taking Fido out for his last walk.
AduroT wrote: I don’t know how people are hating on Warcaster already when we know so little about it. I mean, a game company is trying to expand and make more games! Clearly GW is in desperate straights to be putting out that new chaos warband game of theirs. And new Apocalypse?! That’s twice the desperation!
It’s a new game that shares the IP of their core game, but set in a different time period. It wants to be more focused on the Battlegroup, and will feature customizable leaders and jacks instead of all set characters and loadouts. None of that sounds terrible yet.
I agree, it was just badly represented in the OP calling it Warmachine 5.000 and the old game being changed to Warmachine Age of Oblivion, making it sound like a GW parody. I see it as PP coming to terms with the end of Warmachine and trying to give players a similar, but fresh, experience.
AduroT wrote: I don’t know how people are hating on Warcaster already when we know so little about it. I mean, a game company is trying to expand and make more games! Clearly GW is in desperate straights to be putting out that new chaos warband game of theirs. And new Apocalypse?! That’s twice the desperation!
It’s a new game that shares the IP of their core game, but set in a different time period. It wants to be more focused on the Battlegroup, and will feature customizable leaders and jacks instead of all set characters and loadouts. None of that sounds terrible yet.
I agree, it was just badly represented in the OP calling it Warmachine 5.000 and the old game being changed to Warmachine Age of Oblivion, making it sound like a GW parody. I see it as PP coming to terms with the end of Warmachine and trying to give players a similar, but fresh, experience.
Exactly, it's corny and kinda dumb, but if Warmachine really is dead then they need to cut their losses and try and retain a sense of humour while doing it.
Murdering your darlings is the hardest thing a writer or designer ever has to do, but recognising when to do so is one of the most precious skills you'll ever have. GW did it and made it a success and basically set the template. If PP can manage it, then fair play to them.
They've already stated that there are more narrative events coming for warmachine after oblivion. Even if they wanted to move on from Warmachine it would be really dumb to do so until the new game(s) were established enough to loose the revenue from the first game.
ImAGeek wrote: I don’t think this is replacing Warmahordes. I think they’re adding a 2nd game.
They are adding a new game, which will allow them to be more experimental than changing Warmachine proper. It still revolved around the concept of warcasters and jacks, and apparently uses some of the same mechanics, but being able to design your casters and jacks directly, as well as having smaller unit sizes of only 3-5 models. I also wouldn't be surprised if Warcaster starts off with plastic models rather than resin (it probably won't, but it would be the smart thing to do). So, to me, it seems like it is a new version of Warmachine, but with less baggage, and I'm sure that if it is successful, it will become the blueprint from which Warmachine mk4 could potentially spring.
However, I don't think WMH is popular enough right now to support two full miniature lines - but I'm not sure how many models WMH players are buying as it is. Factions only get two or three models a year, generally, and people who've been around for a while probably have all the faction models they need. So I think that Warcaster, with all new models, new factions, new gameplay will represent a better business opportunity than keeping the WMH line going infinitely. Being resin, rather than cheap, mass produced plastic means that PP can not keep all their models in print all the time, and supporting a line that is, what, 13 factions now?, seems impossible.
I don't think WMH will die outright, but there's no doubt that it is at an unsustainable level right now. Warcasters could replace WMH as PP's main game, and if done well, could last well past when WMH becomes PP's Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
ekwatts wrote: (although I actually don't think GW handled AoS badly. Warhammer was dying and they decided it was better to put a crossbow bolt through it's skull instead of allowing it to limp along for another decade). If it's really true that Warmahordes has been basically abandoned then what harm can this do? They can use the original game as a stepping-off point to create an entirely new game system with a unique style and aesthetic of its own.
More like they wanted an excuse to add Sigmarines to Fantasy, but couldn't find a reasonably way to do it within the bounds of the existing lore, so they just opted to toss the baby out with the bathwater.
AoS coming out of WHFB was far too drastic a move that stemmed from GW - still at the time proudly boasting it didn't listen to customer research - being unwilling to try and understand why it's sales were falling (namely that the barrier to entry and a 2000 army was much, much, much higher than the already expensive 40k due to the way Cores worked and the ruleset being trash below 1000pts). AoS was pretty much dead on arrival, but it flatlined around the time Roundtree took the helm, so they were able to salvage what was left with the General's Handbook. The rest of it's 'success' just came naturally from GW as a whole doing well, but it still holds pretty much the same popularity share compared to 40k as Fantasy did back in the day.
As merciful as I've been on my opinion of PP compared to GW, Warcaster 5000 sounds about as absurd as AoS and not in a good way.
lol no.
Warhammer was dead.
AoS is the opposite of dead.
GW did the right thing in taking Fido out for his last walk.
Warhammer was "dead" because of GW's mismanagement. AoS is the opposite of dead because after an initial period of mismanagement, GW stopped mismanaging it.
In other words, GW are perfectly capable of reviving a "dead" game when they adopt sound business practices like reducing the barrier to entry and engaging with their community, and so all GW did by "taking Fido out" was expend a huge chunk of effort and money that they didn't need to, because AoS looks to be about the same level of popularity as WHFB was at its height - GW wanted another market-smashing 40K-alike, but they just can't grasp the idea that even if you add Space Marines to it a fantasy IP won't sell as well as a sci-fi or sci-fantasy one.
Not sure of the thinking behind trying to pick a fight with 40k when 40k is its at the strongest its been for years, X-Wing got away with it as late 7th was suffering from a number of issues and cos Star Wars
Turnip Jedi wrote: Not sure of the thinking behind trying to pick a fight with 40k when 40k is its at the strongest its been for years, X-Wing got away with it as late 7th was suffering from a number of issues and cos Star Wars
still it'll be interesting to see what occurs
I don’t think it is picking a fight with 40k really. Different scale (20-30 models is a fair bit smaller than 40k) and possibly a more ‘proper sci-fi’ aesthetic if the title card is anything to go by, rather than the space fantasy of most of 40k.
I was mostly a spectator with WarmaHordes from the earlier days...book three or so for WM? I got pulled in with Hordes, but only friendly play at home. Liked the Hordes lore snd even sculpted a few models for shark-based Tharn/Blindwater. For me the player interaction and community on their own forums was too abrasive to try and get involved there. A combination of pricing (often of DREADFUL PVC minis; cleaning my Warpwolves from the starter was haunting), the multipart PVC warbeasts often being worde sculpts than their metal ancestors, faction bloat and fiction "bloat" killed it for me (seriously, stuff happening in magazines I have to import, plus a deluge of big books, new fsction books, revised faction books...figuring out a reading order alone was horrible if you didn't keep up for a bit). And GW getting better.
Regarding pricing, I'm actually hazy on what happened since I stopped thinking about PP years ago, but the European distributor did something with discounts, my online stores of choice and F"L"GS all stopped carrying it over this and I simply stopped caring, because stuff like Bearka or any other 40mm base stuff and cavalry was ridiculosly priced even *with* some discount. If I could get amazing deep sales from MM without the brutal shipping fees to EU added I might have a different view there, but at retail here, no. Especially if it's inconvenient to buy, too! My new FLGS that's actually close never started carrying it. Trollblood bear tamer is tempting, as are quite a few Tharn things, but I'd have to go out of my way to order models for a locally deader than dead system with prices I found to high while it was alive and they might come in a material I hate. Yeah, I'll have to make do without them or a Khador jack amd MoW horde
Now a scifi setting? Ehhh. Nope. I liked Hordes more, snd I actually dislike their futuristic elfs and those recent models (for a dungeon crawler or something?) so scifi WM is not interesting to me at all.
Warhammer was "dead" because of GW's mismanagement. AoS is the opposite of dead because after an initial period of mismanagement, GW stopped mismanaging it.
In other words, GW are perfectly capable of reviving a "dead" game when they adopt sound business practices like reducing the barrier to entry and engaging with their community, and so all GW did by "taking Fido out" was expend a huge chunk of effort and money that they didn't need to, because AoS looks to be about the same level of popularity as WHFB was at its height - GW wanted another market-smashing 40K-alike, but they just can't grasp the idea that even if you add Space Marines to it a fantasy IP won't sell as well as a sci-fi or sci-fantasy one.
There's more believable fiction in the last season of Lost than what you wrote here.
A rank and file miniatures game is never going to achieve mass market penetration these days. Miniature gaming is no longer made up of historicals and grognards. You're talking relatively popular, but WHFB was as popular as it was when the market was MUCH smaller and had fewer competitors. If AoS is as relatively popular to 40k as WHFB was, it's in a market that is huge comparatively. AoS is considerably more popular than WHFB ever was as a total of units sold and money made. According to ICv2, AoS is the second highest selling miniature game, ahead of Legion, X-Wing, Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, Malifaux, Kings of War, Song of Ice and Fire, and so on. In a much more crowded marketplace, and in one that initially HATED AoS, that's a pretty darn big accomplishment.
It's kind of interesting in that people are trying to make what Warhammer evolved into, and not what Warhammer started out as. It'll be interesting to see what sort of direction that PP take, especially since they have legitimate successes like Monsterpocalypse. Now that I could see becoming a Warhammer-style massed game in a decade or so.
Eh. Thats how Warmachine started too. It was supposed to be about the warcaster and the battle group (3-4 warjacks), then adding a squad or two of supporting infantry.
But it quickly became apparent that warjacks were the least efficient things possible, and Infantry Machine was born. Then rather than rein it in, PP pushed point limits up. First to 500, then to 750 (and in later editions reworked points), which emphasized infantry spam even more.
Maybe they learned a lesson, but I expect they'll decide on expanding the range and adding more and more, and that 20-30 models will become 50-70 soon enough.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Not sure of the thinking behind trying to pick a fight with 40k when 40k is its at the strongest its been for years...
They aren't trying to pick a fight with 40k. They are diversifying their line so that they have models they can sell to players that don't overlap with what they already offer. If WMH dies, it'll likely take down everything associated with it (such as their Undercity board games, Riot Quest, the min-crate line, and so on). It's putting all their eggs in one basket, that is currently falling out the 18th story window. Changing genres allows them to have their cake and eat it too.
It's actually a really good idea. In fact, I'd even go as far as to suggest that it might be something that most miniature/game companies will inevitably do once they reach a certain size - just like how all miniature games seem to get a skirmish board game (Underworlds, Aristeia, Riot Quest). Wyrd launched The Other Side, Modiphius is turning Fallout into Skyrim, Knight models added Harry Potter to their Batman, Warcry is probably fantasy Necromunda, Arcadia Quest is becoming Starcadia Quest, Zombicide becomes Starbicide, Frostgrave got Ghost Archipelago, and so on. Corvus Belli is just now starting to diversify with Aristeia and the dungeon crawl they announced. They almost certainly have a fantasy line under development (and have mentioned that they started out making fantasy miniatures and miss it).
What's honestly surprising is that it took PP this long to do it. I mean, they dabbled a bit with Level 7, but PP reached the level where they should've broken off into a second genre miniature game a while ago and never did. I think that maybe they got burned pretty hard with MonPoc 1E and were afraid to commit to a second game system fully. It's taken them 20 years to create a second miniature game (though MonPoc only doesn't count on a technicality).
Voss wrote: Eh. Thats how Warmachine started too. It was supposed to be about the warcaster and the battle group (3-4 warjacks), then adding a squad or two of supporting infantry.
But it quickly became apparent that warjacks were the least efficient things possible, and Infantry Machine was born. Then rather than rein it in, PP pushed point limits up. First to 500, then to 750 (and in later editions reworked points), which emphasized infantry spam even more.
Maybe they learned a lesson, but I expect they'll decide on expanding the range and adding more and more, and that 20-30 models will become 50-70 soon enough.
+1.
Despite being years past burnt out on PP, I like the game at a very small, battlegroup-oriented scale, but I feel like PP never figured out how to encourage players to properly do that. Some characters could run groups well, but that usually became mostly their thing, and it never felt like the system got that working. I think I'd be very tempted by the new game if I trusted them to do a good job keeping it as a quick game with a real core of battlegroup guys, but, well, I don't so I'm not.
I'd like to start with the bad; that pitch for this game is absolutely horrible and unprofessional. It looks like it was written by someone who was notified they had to pitch this new game 10 minutes before the presentation.
Other than that I could potentially be interested in this. I played a lot of WM the first half of 1st and really enjoyed it. The mechanics of how the Warcasters and their Jacks work was really cool, and I thought it was a well thought out game. I didn't really play competitively, so I didn't experience too much infantry machine. Smaller battlegroups and model counts in a science fiction setting could be really cool. I just hope they tone down the shoulder pads as big as torso aesthetic.
I will mention I am not familiar with the most recent edition of the game and how those rules are. Either way good luck to PP.
Sabotage! wrote: I'd like to start with the bad; that pitch for this game is absolutely horrible and unprofessional. It looks like it was written by someone who was notified they had to pitch this new game 10 minutes before the presentation.
They said it would be playable at the 2020 Lock & Load, which says to me that it must be fairly far along in development. My guess is that they just didn't want to distract from the impending releases of the Infernals, Oblivion, and Riot Quest (all of which are launching by Sept, some of which were available to the fans at L&L). They may have learned a hard lesson sharing Riot Quest too early. Also, Gen Con is coming up.
But I agree. They needed something to tease excitement. There's not enough here to know whether to be excited or not.
Rules wise, I think Warmachine is the best its ever been. Battlegroup actually functions and is an integral part of the game and there are a huge number of lists and casters that provide dynamic and thematic play experiences like almost nothing else on the market. The competitive diversity is higher than its ever been, though the current crop of outliers are a bit more problematic than the outliers last year or the year before.
Where the game is at its worst is the community sadly. PP made some unpopular decisions but the way the community reacted to them is where the real damage was done. I've never really seen people actively will death upon something they collectively love(?) so fiercely and for the most part it was over some pretty minor stuff. I think a lot of it is just that MK2 had devolved into such a narrow band of highly specific competitive options that the player base was too invested in to handle change. I'm not really sure overall, but I'm still shocked at how the community reacted to blood in the water.
Where the game is at its worst is the community sadly. PP made some unpopular decisions but the way the community reacted to them is where the real damage was done. I've never really seen people actively will death upon something they collectively love(?) so fiercely and for the most part it was over some pretty minor stuff. I think a lot of it is just that MK2 had devolved into such a narrow band of highly specific competitive options that the player base was too invested in to handle change. I'm not really sure overall, but I'm still shocked at how the community reacted to blood in the water.
You should check out the shadowrun subreddit. Makes all of this look pleasent as there are people still upset that anything but 1st &2nd editions exists and regularly torpedo any post there with people not playing/enjoying the shadowrun setting wrong. So basically 18-20 years or complaining if not longer. I'm sure there will be people still attacking Privateer and Warmahordes 10 years from now over MK2 & 3 changes.
You should check out the shadowrun subreddit. Makes all of this look pleasent as there are people still upset that anything but 1st &2nd editions exists and regularly torpedo any post there with people not playing/enjoying the shadowrun setting wrong. So basically 18-20 years or complaining if not longer. I'm sure there will be people still attacking Privateer and Warmahordes 10 years from now over MK2 & 3 changes.
I don't think finding a more negative and self destructive community is exactly what I had in mind.
On another note, I think PP is also suffering because they seem to have both benefited most and are now suffering the consequences of the "play locally, buy online" market that we've seen over the last decade. I know a lot of places towards the end of MK2 had largely given up competing with online and moved to special order only until some of their shelves cleared. When MK3 didn't dramatically change things in that regard, a lot of that dried up completely and with it there was a pretty notable drop off of new players. As fond as I am of MK3, it didn't really do anything to change how people got into the game, with the only new player product coming out of the gate being the new battleboxes that really weren't any different from the old ones in terms of getting players into the real experience.
WM/H is actually growing in my area in the last few months.
My only worry is tourneys for warcaster will most likely look horrible every army looking the same whatever the best armament is on the caster and jacks for each army is all you'll see and you'll never see any of the other options.
Personally, the competitive thrust of the game pushed me out, and I took mk. III as the perfect opportunity to jump ship. Couple with a local playgroup that was full of people who proudly boasted about their tourney prowess and I was just done.
Add in the unit bloat, the factions slowly losing their faction identity due to every faction getting every kind of unit and you have a game that just kind of lost its way. I don't think mk. III did all the damage that it's purported to, but combine it with a resurgent GW and it was a recipe for disaster.
But in regards to WM5k, I'll look at the pretty minis, but have no intention of playing because I know how the players are in my area.
I started with the B&W Prime book. Played thru Mk1, those were my learning days and i rarely won a game, but time to time, my jacks got to do something fun, and that kept me playing and working to improve.
Then came Mk2, and I started playing in tournaments. I did fair to middling, enjoyed the "loser bracket" side of them, where I met a lot of other players who just enjoyed the game.
I generally built my lists with larger battlegroups than the meta advised, but it played how I liked, and the game felt like I could field nearly anything, and have a chance to win if I played well.
But after awhile, theme lists took over, and anyone who lost a round dropped out of the tournaments.
Enter Mk3 and Theme Lists were the only way to play, if you wanted to win, and many model choices were obviously better than others that did nearly the same thing. Thus driving most lists to be cookie cutter. That's when I bailed, over 2 years ago.
I look at the models available now, and over that time factions have gained 2-3 Warcasters. That's stagnation to me. The lack of new options, and the bewildering CID/Power cycle kept me from attempting a return. Oh and all the "free" extra points in the theme lists.
Though I believe PP's greatest mistakes were twofold;
they let Dave Carl (DC), architect of Mk2, leave as Rules Lead, (Was this at the same time MK3 news leaked?),
and nearly simultaneously dissolved the Press Gang program, which kept events going.
When GW was floundering, a friend convinced me to give Mk 2 a try. I played just a little bit, but quickly realized that it was too cutthroat for my liking. Next thing I knew, it was dead in my area and I’m clinging onto a Cygnar army and starters for a few more factions, not sure what to do with them - other than the fact I’m NOT getting rid of the models.
I’d be curious to see what becomes of this, but I’m tepid to buy into it.
Stormonu wrote: When GW was floundering, a friend convinced me to give Mk 2 a try. I played just a little bit, but quickly realized that it was too cutthroat for my liking. Next thing I knew, it was dead in my area and I’m clinging onto a Cygnar army and starters for a few more factions, not sure what to do with them - other than the fact I’m NOT getting rid of the models.
I’d be curious to see what becomes of this, but I’m tepid to buy into it.
Do what I did and use them for Frostgrave.
I'm vaguely curious about this pure sci-fi game, but wow is that announcement half assed.
Stormonu wrote: When GW was floundering, a friend convinced me to give Mk 2 a try. I played just a little bit, but quickly realized that it was too cutthroat for my liking. Next thing I knew, it was dead in my area and I’m clinging onto a Cygnar army and starters for a few more factions, not sure what to do with them - other than the fact I’m NOT getting rid of the models.
I’d be curious to see what becomes of this, but I’m tepid to buy into it.
Use them for D&D? Or alt models for skirmish games?
I'm interested, for sure, but will wait and see both the models and more on the rules. There were a lot of lessons to be learned from later issues with warmachine, and I'm not sure if they have or not...
The more I think of it, the more I REALLY hope that the brief is wrong/incomplete and it's not just pure sci-fi but rather a magitech sci-fi setting: Immoren a couple ages ahead in the future with Mechanika powered spacecraft and Mechanika powered power armor and mage-lock machineguns and magitech lazers. Preferably still has some/most of the Immoren races as intermixed factions ie: not just space elves as a faction but a few different nations/empires of various humans/skorne/Iosians/trolls etc in various combinations for each faction or empire. I'm very much thinking Eberron meets Spelljammer meets Traveller, or United Worlds of Warlock from Rifts: Phase World
Considering that blogs are not known for being accurate in write ups, and that weird steampunk magitech is a staple of the series. I think either the writer got some things wrong, or PP is being super silly by not going that route. We'll see.
What about Hordes? I could never get into the Warmachine aspect, but dabbled in Hordes. Nobody played but continued collecting the miniatures.
Hopefully there will Hordes aspect to the game as well. Otherwise, since I am sure the prices will be high, may as well just keep buying the other high priced game instead.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Do they continue WM&H after the humans leave and show us what happens with the remaining humans, the other races and the Infernals? Do any of the other races fans love eventually come into play with WNM? The joke about no space elves was dumb, they have a lot of elf fans/players in their base between Ret and Legion. What is the point to connect this game to the previous game if they aren't going to use any of the stuff people love from the setting? I definitely think dragons could end up having an interesting part to play in WNM considering how powerful and weird they are in this universe.
Zatsuku wrote: It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Do they continue WM&H after the humans leave and show us what happens with the remaining humans, the other races and the Infernals? Do any of the other races fans love eventually come into play with WNM? The joke about no space elves was dumb, they have a lot of elf fans/players in their base between Ret and Legion. What is the point to connect this game to the previous game if they aren't going to use any of the stuff people love from the setting? I definitely think dragons could end up having an interesting part to play in WNM considering how powerful and weird they are in this universe.
I would think that after 5000 years, Toruk would've managed to gobble all his kids back up, or one of them won out.
At some point I would've liked an explanation for Toruk. He was a singular being, distinct from the Wurm, but utterly corrosive to the natural order of the world. There were a lot of how/why questions that just... didn't come up. He was effectively a god, to the point of granting spells when IK was a D&D setting, yet unlike the rest of the gods, wasn't messing about in the otherworldy, but tangible Afterlife building defensive cities against the Infernals.
Presumably, 5k WM will explain why Cyriss was a comet (or moon, whatever), as she is a good catalyst as to why people would be in space with 'non-magic' mechanika (which seems an inherent contradiction). Though why they'd still be people and not souls stuffed in Metropolis style robot bodies is a mystery.
Vertrucio wrote: Considering they're consolidating WM and Hordes into one book finally, they maybe will.
After all, if you're spread across many planets, they're bound to run into fantastical creatures to use for combat.
I really hope this is the case. It could be technology vs magic or what ever you want to call it. This way the Horde races can use magic shields, or magic glyphs to give them the protection of bullets/lasers, and magic/glyphs to enhance the arrows/spears to penetrate high tech armour/shields.
I never got into the steampunk version of Warmachine. If the future version is still steampunk, then I don't think it will be for me. Not saying it will not be good, but I don't care of the looks of the Jacks. So it there are going to be Jacks, then hopefully the aesthetic will look awesome. I hope they give us more information soon.
I gave Games Workshop a second/third chance, I can always give Privateer Press a second chance as well.
Vertrucio wrote: Considering they're consolidating WM and Hordes into one book finally, they maybe will.
After all, if you're spread across many planets, they're bound to run into fantastical creatures to use for combat.
I really hope this is the case. It could be technology vs magic or what ever you want to call it. This way the Horde races can use magic shields, or magic glyphs to give them the protection of bullets/lasers, and magic/glyphs to enhance the arrows/spears to penetrate high tech armour/shields.
I never got into the steampunk version of Warmachine. If the future version is still steampunk, then I don't think it will be for me. Not saying it will not be good, but I don't care of the looks of the Jacks.
Thats fair. Some of the jack designs were pretty woeful, and the plas/restic versions were often worse. For me it was the piddly little legs on everything.
Though I did like the steam(punk...ish) concept. Shame quite a few factions departed from it fairly quickly. I got the elves being their own thing because Elves Are Better Than You, but Cygnar and Cyrissts jumping multiple generations of technology over the course of a few campaign years was... annoying.
What in the everliving feth? After watching that keynote speech, I don't think I could be any less enthused about the new game. So it's set in the same universe, but it shares absolutely nothing with the old WM setting: different planet(s), none of the same races (I'm assuming except for humans), and there's warcasters and warjacks that are called warcasters and warjacks, but specifically no magic. Also it'll have completely different game mechanics. But "it'll feel like warmachine". Somehow. And on top of all that, we won't be seeing a proper preview of the game until L&L 2020 a year from now. The only GOOD news is that it'll have rules for crating your own warcasters and customizing warjacks, which is something PP should have done years ago
Welp, at least I won't have to give a flying feth about PP for at least another year and likely a lot, lot longer if this teaser info carries out to completion.
Kalamadea wrote: What in the everliving feth? After watching that keynote speech, I don't think I could be any less enthused about the new game. So it's set in the same universe, but it shares absolutely nothing with the old WM setting: different planet(s), none of the same races (I'm assuming except for humans), and there's warcasters and warjacks that are called warcasters and warjacks, but specifically no magic. Also it'll have completely different game mechanics. But "it'll feel like warmachine". Somehow. And on top of all that, we won't be seeing a proper preview of the game until L&L 2020 a year from now. The only GOOD news is that it'll have rules for crating your own warcasters and customizing warjacks, which is something PP should have done years ago
Welp, at least I won't have to give a flying feth about PP for at least another year and likely a lot, lot longer if this teaser info carries out to completion.
L&L 2020 is when it’s out, we’ll have previews before then.
I guess some of the models could be cool.
