Congrats, everyone. Now instead of what could've been an easy consolidation of the Marine armies into one comprehensive army, we now get a Marine codex with the supplements we all know and love, just like in 7th edition.
We were promised less bloat, and this is quite the opposite. Now GW listened to you folks that said "We NeEd RuLeS fOr EvErYtHiNg!!!!1!" as we revert to a bad time in the game's life.
From the way they're talking about it, the C: Space Marines isn't exactly what you're making it out to be.
The impression I'm getting?
Codex Space Marines will be a big book...but it's going to lose named characters, signature units(Crusader Squads, Neophyte Servitors, Emperor's Champion), etc. The "Chapter Rules" for the First Foundings I'm feeling will likely be a cliffnotes version(Raven Guard are sneaky, White Scars like to go fast, etc) while the Supplements are going to give you more(Raven Guard get superior infiltration abilities and maybe some different objectives compared to others, etc)
This new setup is a thing I've really been hoping they'd do for a long time:
The ability to actually parse out the named characters that skew balance in a Bad Way without requiring them to split off into their own 100% dedicated codex.
The ability to actually cut out bloat that does not and never will affect me(a good chunk of C: Space Marines is Ultramarines crap or Black Templars crap. I don't play them. I play Raven Guard) and potentially cut down the cost of the book--even factoring in a supplement.
TLDR:
I think pretending this is bloat is harmful to the discussions that actually surround bloat. There is no way, shape, or form where I can envision myself needing every single one of these--except for maybe against the cheesy gits who like to have creative interpretations of their book's rules and refuse to show you the book for you to see it.
If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..
Daedalus81 wrote: Wouldn't it be better to address his points instead of attacking him personally?
Address what? 8th rules bloat is quite evident and they are literally re-printing the codices after 2 mere years (1,5 years in case of CSM) with ADDED Supplements. There's nothing to discuss as of now since one of our greatest fears during the transition to the new edition literally came back stronger than ever
Eldarsif wrote: If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..
This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.
Eldarsif wrote: If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..
I don't expect to see points costs for, say, Intercessors to vary wildly from book to book--but I would imagine that some of the "signature units" mentioned will be costed differently. I'd also posit that it finally will let them see what players have been saying for ages:
Characters are a Big Deal when they come with perks, relics, and wargear that nobody else gets.
Come on...
GW remains in the business of making money. Rule books is one way to do it. If anyone on this forum is honestly shocked by this, than I will be honestly shocked. We can gripe (and do) about it, or we can be excited for some changes. I fall into both categories. I am tired of purchasing 10 pages of rules and 50-60 pages of fluff I find poorly written and mostly uninteresting, but then again, will my White Scars finally get something cool and turn them back into White Scars???
Sarcasm ahead...
Besides, you know, getting their leader on his bike...because you know, I like luke skywalker without a lightsaber or vampires who sparkle in sunlight instead of dieing horribly...)
On another note: Kanluwen, honest question: Do you believe this codex will be cheaper than the previous? And that the supplements will cost appreciably (whatever that is) less?
My experience in 20+ years is: Additional materials needed is GW's pattern, price reduction is not.
Or did you mean "Price list" as in cost in points for units and balance? I do hope for better balance and think they have done better this edition than previous ones.
On another note: Kanluwen, honest question: Do you believe this codex will be cheaper than the previous? And that the supplements will cost appreciably (whatever that is) less?
Considering they've been aiming for every Codex to be $40? Yeah, I'd believe that it would be cheaper than the previous. I'd imagine the supplements will be somewhere in the realm of $15-$20...depending on how large they are. I'd guess $30 on the extreme top end.
My experience in 20+ years is: Additional materials needed is GW's pattern, price reduction is not.
And yet we have seen price reductions. The current book is $50 versus the $58 last edition's was. The same goes for Codex: Craftworlds(was a $58 codex last edition, now $40).
We also haven't actually seen anything that is "required". People can piss and moan all they want about "i NeEd tO hAvE TO bE cOmPeTiTiVe!"...but that isn't the same as needed to actually play.
Or did you mean "Price list" as in cost in points for units and balance? I do hope for better balance and think they have done better this edition than previous ones.
I meant exactly what I said. It was a snarky comment on people with "the sky is falling!" attitudes literally the day after the announcement of this stuff.
Eldarsif wrote: If they keep points specific to these sub-factions I will be pleasantly surprised. The biggest problem currently is that way too many chapters have the same points across them and then they need to balance the codex in case you take Ultramarines with Roboute who scales different from the rest..
I don't expect to see points costs for, say, Intercessors to vary wildly from book to book--but I would imagine that some of the "signature units" mentioned will be costed differently. I'd also posit that it finally will let them see what players have been saying for ages:
Characters are a Big Deal when they come with perks, relics, and wargear that nobody else gets.
This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.
Did I miss the price list dropping already? Huh. Weird that they'd release the codex so quick!
So Kan do you believe that the main codex+supplement is going to cost less than the current Codex as you condescension implies or is there a reason we have to wait for pre orders if there is a very high probability that they are going to cost more given real life and GW’s track record.
For what it’s worth you will be lucky to get away with £30 for the main 90% of the rules and another £20 for the remaining 10% of rules, saying that the share holders expect so maybe add another £5 to each to flavour.
The supplements MIGHT be the cost of the Indexes at around $25. But the main codex is likely $50 like the current one.
I do think GW will be smart and cost the supplements at a lower cost than the codex. Knights are a bad example because they have a stand alone book. It doesn't matter how many datasheets it has.
Galef wrote: The supplements MIGHT be the cost of the Indexes at around $25. But the main codex is likely $50 like the current one.
I do think GW will be smart and cost the supplements at a lower cost than the codex. Knights are a bad example because they have a stand alone book. It doesn't matter how many datasheets it has.
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Knights is a great example because if they were ever willing to sell you a hardcover for 25 that would have been it.
On another note: Kanluwen, honest question: Do you believe this codex will be cheaper than the previous? And that the supplements will cost appreciably (whatever that is) less?
Considering they've been aiming for every Codex to be $40? Yeah, I'd believe that it would be cheaper than the previous. I'd imagine the supplements will be somewhere in the realm of $15-$20...depending on how large they are. I'd guess $30 on the extreme top end.
My experience in 20+ years is: Additional materials needed is GW's pattern, price reduction is not.
And yet we have seen price reductions. The current book is $50 versus the $58 last edition's was. The same goes for Codex: Craftworlds(was a $58 codex last edition, now $40).
We also haven't actually seen anything that is "required". People can piss and moan all they want about "i NeEd tO hAvE TO bE cOmPeTiTiVe!"...but that isn't the same as needed to actually play.
Or did you mean "Price list" as in cost in points for units and balance? I do hope for better balance and think they have done better this edition than previous ones.
I meant exactly what I said. It was a snarky comment on people with "the sky is falling!" attitudes literally the day after the announcement of this stuff.
Sorry I missed your reply while typing, so hang on you honestly believe there going to charge the same now for supplement as they did over a decade ago rofl sorry sorry you expect a supplement for £12.50-£15.00 ahhh nope not a chance you must be kidding so seriously what price are yo expecting.
Lance845 wrote:This is a scam to get you to pay for 2 overpriced books instead of 1. I understand your hope for competent rules balancing. But it's VERY unlikely.
So Kan do you believe that the main codex+supplement is going to cost less than the current Codex as you condescension implies or is there a reason we have to wait for pre orders if there is a very high probability that they are going to cost more given real life and GW’s track record.
He didn't say that it was going to cost less than the current Codex, so you can knock off trying to put words in my mouth. The point made by my "condescension"(it's actually snark, but whatever) was that we can't say jack about the books "being overpriced" until we actually know how much they are.
We don't know if the main book will drop to $40 and lose a lot of the Chapter specific character fluff, color plates, etc.
For what it’s worth you will be lucky to get away with £30 for the main 90% of the rules and another £20 for the remaining 10% of rules, saying that the share holders expect so maybe add another £5 to each to flavour.
You're aware that it's not "90% and 10%" separate from what's been talked about so far right?
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.
Dysartes wrote: Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?
Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.
Lance845 wrote: Codex chaos knights has 5 datasheets at less than 80 pages for 40.00.
You think codex sm with more datasheets than any other army will be less than 50?
You think the supplements will be less than 35-50?
Which is one of my fundamental issues.
Chaos Knights could've been 1-2 pages on how to switch keywords to use your Knights as bad guys (AKA so you still get Relics, Traits, Warlords and that garbage), and then 5-6 pages of the stuff for fluffbunnies.
I don't get why people are complaining so much about the Chaos Knight codex. I mean, any criticism that falls on that codex automatically falls on the Imperial Knights Codex as well, at least to the total of content.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.
I didnt say infinity.
I never said you did. I said that's your opinion and I used the example of Infinity's books.
It's such a shame that there's no forum for people who actually enjoy the hobby and find new releases exciting.
For Space Marine players, who are here for the hobby and not to spread negativity, the news from yesterday is great. The issue of incompatibility between Codex SM and it's BA/DA/SW offshoots has been resolved. There's even a thread on the front page already complaining that BA/DA/SW aren't SM and can't use new SM units.
That the other founding chapters are also getting supplements is excellent news too. More variety and character /= bloat. If you don't play whitescars, you don't need the codex, so you don't buy the codex. It really is incredibly straight forward.
I do really wonder why some members are still here when they seem to spent every post complaining, or getting upset by the hobby. It's meant to be fun, it's meant to be enjoyable. If you don't find it that way, try something else?
It's also stunning how people still complain of the hobby being overpriced. How are the prices still surprising people? It's been more than 30 years of the same story. Maybe it's time to accept that. It's an expensive hobby. Not overpriced though. If that was the case people wouldn;'t be buying it.
Every release there's the usual crowd that will say "X hasn't gotten anything new, it's always Imperium". I'm pretty sure if Eldar were to get a full plastic aspect warrior range with a new codex, new options, we'd still be subjected to the same noise of "Bloat, overpriced, the old range was better, not grimdark, cashcow, appealing to new fans, not multipart enough, why did my army not get new stuff?, my codex is only a year old now I've to buy a new one".
The incessant negativity really only speaks of entitlement. GW could hand us a pot of gold for free and we'd see complaints that it's too heavy and shiny.
Space Marines get more because they make up a significantly larger portion of the player base than any other faction.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.
I didnt say infinity.
I never said you did. I said that's your opinion and I used the example of Infinity's books.
Cool. So there are quality books with more content for less or equal cost.
Then there is gws overpriced books. And then there are infinitys books which you claim are also overpriced which is relevent to the discusion for some reason.
Or, instead of complaining about how people are anything but 100% worshipful towards GW, you could consider the possibility that many of us genuinely like the hobby (or at least some parts of it) and want it to be better?
Yes, it's amazing how me enjoying the hobby and being tired of the endless complaining here, which isn't even coherent, is actually me just being a GW apologist. Excellent deduction. I'll wait patiently to be called a shill soon enough.
The whinging here flip flops between the usual "The rules are bloated" and "My faction didn't get new things". It's unfortunate that the need for new rules for new things seems to be difficult to grasp.
If you want it to be a better hobby then send feedback to GW rather than spreading the usual poison across the hobby forums.
All rules will be easily pirated. Hell the review book they give to people that they flip through on YouTube/Stream will be page copied for all to use. And GW did not stop them. They know and expect now that all their rule will be freely available through a simple Google search.
The people they are targeting are those that love to have the book to flip through. Not a penny pinching Dakka whinner.
Inside knowledge from work related to this: shipping on road or rail has gone up 9% this year. Across ocean 8.5%. Paper stock about 5.3%. Depending on were but print costs are all up around 9%.
Books are not for tournament players. You should know by now that pretty much No player brings all their books.
This is for the people that like and don't mind spending money for dead trees.
Sentineil wrote: Yes, it's amazing how me enjoying the hobby and being tired of the endless complaining here, which isn't even coherent, is actually me just being a GW apologist. Excellent deduction. I'll wait patiently to be called a shill soon enough.
You post "everything GW is doing is great and we should be thankful instead of complaining" and dismiss everyone's legitimate concerns, you get labeled an apologist.
The whinging here flip flops between the usual "The rules are bloated" and "My faction didn't get new things". It's unfortunate that the need for new rules for new things seems to be difficult to grasp.
First of all, those "new things" don't really need to exist. Second, I know it's tough to grasp that "dakka" is not a single entity and is in fact composed of multiple people with different opinions, but perhaps what you are actually seeing is just two groups of people disagreeing on something?
If you want it to be a better hobby then send feedback to GW rather than spreading the usual poison across the hobby forums.
IOW, "don't post your opinion unless you agree with me, send it to the black hole of GW's complaint inbox where it can be ignored".
I like the idea. I mean, sure, rebuying books suck, but that's better than staying imbalanced for an entire edition. And having the major chapters split out has appeal to make the main book clearer and that should imply that chapters other than UM will finally have more than 1 named character.
My main worry is this "Best codex ever" directly follows the point increase of the Executioner. I think we can guess what point value is going to be printed. I know it's the strats and rules that make or break a codex since points can be adjusted later, but sigh, not a good first impression of the book that's going to turn things around for marines.
Whilst I don't think that these supplements were really needed, and would have personally preferred streamlining stuff down to one big codex, I think this is still preferable to the variant chapters having their own full codices. At least things will now stay more coherent.
You post "everything GW is doing is great and we should be thankful instead of complaining" and dismiss everyone's legitimate concerns, you get labeled an apologist.
Sure we can. Is the book more than $0? It's overpriced.
Sorry, did I miss the legitimate concern?
It's also nice to equate me being happy with new supplements for chapters that have been neglected with me supporting everything GW does. Awesome. Any other words you'd like to put in my mouth?
New things do need to exist. It's how the hobby got past first edition. The fact that people keep buying new things and expanding their collections says that we enjoy new things. Them not needing to exist and you not necessarily wanting them for whatever reason aren't the same thing.
Dakka is not a single entity no, but it is shouted down by a very vocal and negative group to the point that any thread that shows positivity will quickly be drowned out by the usual voices.
First of all, those "new things" don't really need to exist.
Do you understand that GW is a comppany which sells models? They actually need to make new models. And you know what's also great? No one is forcing yout o buy them.
Whilst I have my quibbles about how the Primaris line is handled, I am really pleased that it exists. For the most part the models look great, and it is really interesting that the shackles of the old marine organisation have been abandoned. We can get thing that are actually new, instead of just thousandth redo of tactical marines.
Cool. So there are quality books with more content for less or equal cost.
Then there is gws overpriced books. And then there are infinitys books which you claim are also overpriced which is relevent to the discusion for some reason.
If you cannot understand an example of "opinion on the quality of a book are subjective", then I think it best I stop attempting to engage with you.
The legitimate concern is that GW is forcing space marine players to buy two new books to make up for the fact that the original codex was garbage. It's like if your video card was getting low frame rates in games because of a driver issue and the manufacturer tried to charge you $20 to download updated drivers that fix the problem.
It's also nice to equate me being happy with new supplements for chapters that have been neglected with me supporting everything GW does. Awesome. Any other words you'd like to put in my mouth?
Being happy for new supplements is not apologism. Posting a giant rant on everything from "negativity" to "stop complaining about prices" sure is.
New things do need to exist.
New things that fill a needed role need to exist. New things that exist for the sole purpose of providing new models to buy do not, and in fact hurt the game by drowning the good stuff in a sea of useless clutter. Unfortunately GW's new space marine plan is very little of the first kind of new releases and a lot of the second.
Dakka is not a single entity no, but it is shouted down by a very vocal and negative group to the point that any thread that shows positivity will quickly be drowned out by the usual voices.
That's odd, because in my experience dakka is plagued by a very vocal positive group who drown out any criticism of GW with obsessive white knighting.
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Crimson wrote: Do you understand that GW is a comppany which sells models? They actually need to make new models. And you know what's also great? No one is forcing yout o buy them.
Whilst I have my quibbles about how the Primaris line is handled, I am really pleased that it exists. For the most part the models look great, and it is really interesting that the shackles of the old marine organisation have been abandoned. We can get thing that are actually new, instead of just thousandth redo of tactical marines.
GW doesn't need to constantly make new models just for the sake of having new boxes to sell. Remember, GW's biggest potential sales are to people starting new armies, not to existing customers buying the new kit to add to an existing army. And for that customer building a new army having new releases doesn't add new sales, it just potentially replaces a sale of an older kit with the new one. If GW stopped making new releases entirely I suspect you'd see a much smaller decrease in sales than you think.
Cool. So there are quality books with more content for less or equal cost.
Then there is gws overpriced books. And then there are infinitys books which you claim are also overpriced which is relevent to the discusion for some reason.
If you cannot understand an example of "opinion on the quality of a book are subjective", then I think it best I stop attempting to engage with you.
There is subjective and then there is objective. Objectively hardcovers are produced with more content, better layout, better binding, and at least equivalent cover and paper quality for similar price points with more pages. The pdfs gw produce are objectively overpriced when compared to market equivalents.
GW doesn't need to constantly make new models just for the sake of having new boxes to sell. Remember, GW's biggest potential sales are to people starting new armies, not to existing customers buying the new kit to add to an existing army. And for that customer building a new army having new releases doesn't add new sales, it just potentially replaces a sale of an older kit with the new one. If GW stopped making new releases entirely I suspect you'd see a much smaller decrease in sales than you think.
Sorry, you're just flagrantly wrong. They have said that that the sales of the kits are massively front loaded, i.e. the new kits massively outsell the old kits.
If GW is forcing people to buy space marine codexes I think we should probably report that to the police. It sounds illegal, and a new low for such a tyrannical despicable company.
GW doesn't need to constantly make new models just for the sake of having new boxes to sell. Remember, GW's biggest potential sales are to people starting new armies, not to existing customers buying the new kit to add to an existing army. And for that customer building a new army having new releases doesn't add new sales, it just potentially replaces a sale of an older kit with the new one. If GW stopped making new releases entirely I suspect you'd see a much smaller decrease in sales than you think.
Dude, you should apply to GW so you can run their sales and marketing departments. It sounds like they desperately need a new executive armchair analyst.
Just out of mild curiosity, have you even the tiniest shred of evidence to back any of that up?
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
From what it read like yesterday, there's a "set" of 19 Successor traits and you can pick them. I'd assume you have to pick a parent Chapter first and then it narrows down the Successor traits.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.
Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.
Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!
And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.
Games Workshop charging for a balance update isn't shocking (considering the yearly Chapter Approved + Chaos Codex 2.0). Still, people have every right to complain about it, and there's good reason to aswell. My concern is that Games Workshop during the release of 8th edition made it a selling point that they would get rid of the introduction of supplements to reduce the number of books you need to carry. They've obviously already went back on that statement, but it's obvious why they're doing these supplements now. They need something for 40k to release in the upcoming months so avoid the game looking stale or dead, and releasing Space Marine supplements does that. If you don't play Space Marines then obviously it's terrible, but Games Workshop is more concerned about the image of the game atm until they release Sisters in November.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.
Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!
And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.
It was hardly a serious statement. They sometimes touch FW though. I mean, even Zhufor went down in the last one.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.
Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!
And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.
It was hardly a serious statement. They sometimes touch FW though. I mean, even Zhufor went down in the last one.
They adjust fw points. They do not update fw datasheets to have the new rules.
And there is the known issue of changing who handles the rules from FW to the main GW studio. This, coupled with the loss of the Head of FW, will no doubt have disrupted things.
Heck, as of the seminar at UK Games Expo at the start of June, they were still figuring out what route they wanted to use to handle getting updated rules out there, let alone what they wanted/needed to update - points costs are covered by CA, after all, even if they need to give some of them a serious think.
In this specific case, if we're potentially going to see a FAQ update to handle BA/DA/SW using the main book, it isn't outside the realms of possibility that we'll see one for the Marine FW Index to take care of implementing Angels of Death. I won't say it is guaranteed, but it is certainly a viable possibility.
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.
Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.
Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!
And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.
It was hardly a serious statement. They sometimes touch FW though. I mean, even Zhufor went down in the last one.
They adjust fw points. They do not update fw datasheets to have the new rules.
Then would you Kindly explain why militia remained 4 ppm even though they are literally gretchin?
Or mutants, or DKoK?
If they seriously would touch these things then half the issues for fw index lists would've been solved twice over allready.
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
BrianDavion wrote: I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.
anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it. I however am happy to see GW giving us more source material. but I admit I do a lot of RPGs and am a guy who happily kept up with D&D 3rd edition which released two sourcebooks a month during it's run
As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.
As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.
Hopefully it will be released soon.
Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.
I don't use the named characters and as such I use the "successor chapter" rule to give them certain traits. Currently running them as crimson fists to use the vigils detatchment. Pretty fun.
The best I can hope for in regards of proper chapter trait rules us WD, but with the ability to pick n' mix in the new Codex, yeah I'm OK with that.
BrianDavion wrote: anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it.
"If you don't like it you can just quit and throw your whole investment in the trash".
or just buy the one codex and play with that. worst case scenerio.. you lose access to the rules for 2 or 3 of your characters as an ultramarines player.
BrianDavion wrote: anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it. I however am happy to see GW giving us more source material. but I admit I do a lot of RPGs and am a guy who happily kept up with D&D 3rd edition which released two sourcebooks a month during it's run
None of 3rd sourcebooks invalidated the rest of 3rd. None of them were reprints of previous books until 3.5.
BrianDavion wrote: anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it. I however am happy to see GW giving us more source material. but I admit I do a lot of RPGs and am a guy who happily kept up with D&D 3rd edition which released two sourcebooks a month during it's run
None of 3rd sourcebooks invalidated the rest of 3rd. None of them were reprints of previous books until 3.5.
the codex supplements won't invalidate anything, and we all knew a new marine codex was coming.
redboi wrote: Supplements seem like the best way to go for SMimo
Hopefully they roll SWBA and DA into supplements as well rather than a whole new codex
I don't understand why people are saying BA/SW wont need/have a codex as they will have supplement...
The supplements ARE the new codexes. Just smaller and maybe(probably?) cheaper.
This change is good. Maybe we will see less bitter complaining about how marines are gak.
Supplements will still be the full price, probably.
Hopefully all the different flavours of candy don't get their special release time slot, as they can all be handled in these smaller supplements.
8th is continuing down the multi rules source path to becoming (or already is) a bloated mess and yet is still a horribly bare bones game with rudimentary rules. What's shocking is how people embrace this mess when multiple supplements for an army was a hot button issue in 7th. Of course GW is laughing to the bank as people buy these content thin supplements for premium prices.
Vankraken wrote: 8th is continuing down the multi rules source path to becoming (or already is) a bloated mess and yet is still a horribly bare bones game with rudimentary rules. What's shocking is how people embrace this mess when multiple supplements for an army was a hot button issue in 7th. Of course GW is laughing to the bank as people buy these content thin supplements for premium prices.
Imagine the documents you'll have to use as a mahrine player now.
CORE RULES
FAQ
ERRATA - CORE RULES
ERRATA - FAQ
INDEX: HUMIES
CODEX: MARINES
CODEX: MY FLAVOURED MARINE
ERRATA - INDEX
ERRATA - MARINES
ERRATA - MY FLAVOURED MARINE
Dysartes wrote: Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?
Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.
GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.
Dysartes wrote: Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?
Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.
GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.
Yes, the rule were for 2 editions a pyrovore exploded an entire table was written on purpose to sell models.
Dysartes wrote: Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?
Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.
GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.
This is some seriously tinfoil hat grogan.
Are you no joke telling me that GamesWorkshop added +1 STR and +1 toughness to ammo grots in Killteam just to sell models they dont have in store?
Hotdamn that's some 200 IQ stuff, I guess they must be releasing Omega Ammo Runts come Orktober l m a o
While some of GWs releases and rules are clearly designed to drive sale, I attribute most the general rule imbalance to be that the people writing the rules seem to play the game in it's most ideal condition. In a limited group that mostly has the same vision for the game and has essentially unlimited access to models and just saying yea play it that way.
Given the scale that standard 40k is trying to represent at this point, the rules just break down. Between the limits of a D6 and trying to represent everything from a grot to a titan, the system breaks down. GW continues to try and compensate for that inherent weakness by returning to 7th style special rules/ supplements for everyone
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.
I didnt say infinity.
Pick a rules system then. The only ones whose books aren't stupidly overpriced are the ones that are free, and things like malifaux where it's literally just the rules in the smallest booklet they could make. Bolt action, warmahordes, infinity, etc, all overpriced nonsense.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Congrats, everyone. Now instead of what could've been an easy consolidation of the Marine armies into one comprehensive army, we now get a Marine codex with the supplements we all know and love, just like in 7th edition.
We were promised less bloat, and this is quite the opposite. Now GW listened to you folks that said "We NeEd RuLeS fOr EvErYtHiNg!!!!1!" as we revert to a bad time in the game's life.
You mean the consolidation that only a few people wanted?
Dysartes wrote: Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?
Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.
GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.
This is some seriously tinfoil hat grogan.
Are you no joke telling me that GamesWorkshop added +1 STR and +1 toughness to ammo grots in Killteam just to sell models they dont have in store?
Hotdamn that's some 200 IQ stuff, I guess they must be releasing Omega Ammo Runts come Orktober l m a o
It's not JUST tinfoil hat, it's also arse slowed. GW doesn't and has NEVER understood their rules well enough to make things overpowered on purpose without causing community banhammers to come down.
If you honestly, truly still believe, after YEARS of primaris being absolute doggak, that GW is making things deliberately OP to sell models, and just lets their flagship releases languish in the dusty cupboards of hardcore marine fanboys, then you're being irrational.
HoundsofDemos wrote: While some of GWs releases and rules are clearly designed to drive sale, I attribute most the general rule imbalance to be that the people writing the rules seem to play the game in it's most ideal condition. In a limited group that mostly has the same vision for the game and has essentially unlimited access to models and just saying yea play it that way.
Given the scale that standard 40k is trying to represent at this point, the rules just break down. Between the limits of a D6 and trying to represent everything from a grot to a titan, the system breaks down. GW continues to try and compensate for that inherent weakness by returning to 7th style special rules/ supplements for everyone
I always just thought of it like the rules team getting everything at the last moment, and having short deadlines for everything. And nothing they get is really well thought out for the game at that point.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.
I didnt say infinity.
Pick a rules system then. The only ones whose books aren't stupidly overpriced are the ones that are free, and things like malifaux where it's literally just the rules in the smallest booklet they could make. Bolt action, warmahordes, infinity, etc, all overpriced nonsense.
Walk into a game store. Find some hardcovers, pick them up and check out their quality and content. Probably 90% are rock solid deals for content, page count, physical quality, layout/formatting/art. GW is a trash heap by comparison.
- A break-down of all of the game rules, easing you into the new system
- An extensive Terrain section, outlining dozens of different terrain types to be found in the Antarean universe
- An Armoury section, featuring entries (and blueprints!) of the various weapon technologies used in Antares
- More advances rules for using Mounted Units, Vehicles, Buildings and more
- A section detailing just a handful of the different creatures which inhabit Antarean space
- 6 Matched Scenarios, and 6 Narrative Scenarios
- Full Army Lists for 6 factions
- A detailed timeline of Antarean Space, including Star Map and dedicated sections for each specific faction
- Quick Reference Sheet, Weapons Summary, and Templates Section to the rear of the book
259 pages. 48.00.
If you wanted the core rule book and 6 armys datasheets for GW you would need 7 books at 360.00.
This one book lets you start playing with any of the 6 factions at less than the cost of a single codex while having the back of the book as one big quick reference sheet for turn structure, orders, special rules reference, etc...
Now... I understand that GW has more units. But that doesn't mean any of those codexes have the content to justify the price.
I recommend you don't try to drag your argument with me from that other thread into this one. I am having a conversation with people who can carry a conversation over here. If you want to talk to me about what happened in that thread I suggest you send me a PM. I promise. I will totally read those PMs. In here, drop it.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.
Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.
Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.
Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.
Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.
Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.
Totally better.
then maybe you should go play all those ohh so better games you talk about?
BrianDavion wrote: I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.
Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.
Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.
Totally better.
then maybe you should go play all those ohh so better games you talk about?
I do. It's apocalypse. 100.00 box for the rule book (with WAY better core rules) all the chits you need and every units data released online for free. General balance is a lot better too. Highly recommend for everyone. But do you have a point about the topic in a comment like that? Is this one of those "Criticism is not welcome here" posts?
BrianDavion wrote: I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years
What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.
Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.
Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.
Totally better.
then maybe you should go play all those ohh so better games you talk about?
I do. It's apocalypse. 100.00 box for the rule book (with WAY better core rules) all the chits you need and every units data released online for free. General balance is a lot better too. Highly recommend for everyone. But do you have a point about the topic in a comment like that? Is this one of those "Criticism is not welcome here" posts?
it's a "we're getting tired of constant cirticism over gak that's minor elague" seriously if you're offended with GW giving us more options then umm.. ok.
every game system tends to get more and more rules added, because thats the nature of gaming systems.
Because so far there's no word on that either way.
Honest opinion, see late stage 7th with supplements, Nickel and diming in 8th for balance Patches in essence.
Imo the chances are fairly high that this will be the new, old, Norm.
At the same time however, the three non-condex chapters stayed separate, as did DW and Grey knights.
Yep, because they are allready monetized to the maximum ammount.
It's an obvious buisness move.
It certainly also has it's good sides to it with deeper more varied rules and unit choices.
Personally though you couldve also made a bigger book with more lists in it and exclude the really exotic stuff. (Arguably the GK's could've remained in a Inquisitorial book with 3 lists?) But he, why sell you a book for 75£ when i can sell you 3-4 for 40£ each, spread around differing months?
It looks better for investors aswell.
For the time being, BA/DA/SWs will stay separate Codices, but I 100% believe GW intend to make them into supplements for the upcoming Marine Codex.
It makes business sense for several reasons:
Mainly more books for you to buy and releases to get people hyped for new character models.
I could see GW doing this for all Marines (except DW & GKs) and all Chaos Marines.
The only way this doesn't happen is if these supplements bomb on sales and GW abandons the effort (which may happen). But considering that will leave BA/DA/SWs in an awkward position, no one should want this to happen.
Much as I hated the execution of Supplements in 3rd Ed, I don't think they're necessarily a bad thing.
Consider.
Most Marine units across Codecies are the same. Tactical is a Tactical. Devastator is a Devastator, yeah?
Some Chapters get specific replacement infantry (notably Space Woofs). All Chapters get their own Special Characters.
To have a central tome covering the common/shared units does make a certain amount of sense.
The Supplements are then free to pack in the flavour, rather than just swapping out a few pages here and there.
The execution. That's what this is gonna boil down to. That's where the 3rd Ed ones choked. They weren't so much supplements, as expensive pamphlets. And boy was their variation in effectiveness. Blood Angels became the Beardy Gitz choice. Dark Angels? Erm....your Terminators are fearless? So whilst the concept is sound, they need to make sure each supplement is worth the price of admission. Not 'every single one has to be top tier' or owt. Just that there's sufficient content to justify splitting off.
Thinking about it, it's much the same opinion as I had about the Necromunda relaunch. Many were understandably miffed that the rules for the six houses were being split. And I share that miffedness. But, we were promised further content in each volume. For me? That's more or less what I got. I'm not saying they nailed it - that's for the individual, as ever. But I was happy enough (though the new method is much improved).
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.
would free (legit) rules really harm GW ? The faithful would still buy physical books, the middlings may see it as an excuse to spend the same but end up with more toys and naysayers like me would lose a source of pish taking
Well, they've done it with AoS. Granted, you need to Pay For Points, but at least one can have a gander at the overall abilities in an army before deciding if it's for you?
First of all, the datasheets included in the book will be available to all the First Founding Chapters and their successors, so whichever Space Marine Chapter(s) hold your allegiance, you’ll be able to use the full spectrum of units available to the Adeptus Astartes – even if you’re a Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels player!
Anyone else think it's priceless that we had a tens-of-pages freakout over this, days before they announce a complete fix?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I don't love, however, is that unless there are further changes, my Banshees now lose CC against BATac Marines point-for-point. But then, Banshees are skirmishers, all about movement, not killiness.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.
There is an example on the last page. Go check it out.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.
I dunno what you mean about close, is it amount of content, quaility/fun, playstyle, scale, priceworth, popularity?
Here are some good wargames:
Lion rampant, warband (pendraken) , hail ceasar, warmaster, bolt action, dropzone commander, gates of antares, saga, x-wing.
Some of those have very low cost compared to 40k, some are similar costs bit nothing has as expensive rule books. The only games i know with such expensive rule books are role playing games, like eon or dnd where you can buy expansions to the extreme.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.
I dunno what you mean about close, is it amount of content, quaility/fun, playstyle, scale, priceworth, popularity?
Here are some good wargames:
Lion rampant, warband (pendraken) , hail ceasar, warmaster, bolt action, dropzone commander, gates of antares, saga, x-wing.
Some of those have very low cost compared to 40k, some are similar costs bit nothing has as expensive rule books. The only games i know with such expensive rule books are role playing games, like eon or dnd where you can buy expansions to the extreme.
And the RPG books have a similar price point for cover to cover rules and content with better bindings (generally) and superior layouts with indexes and such to make the content much easier to navigate. GWs books just reprint the same bits of fluff over and over with 10-25% of the pages being splash page adds to show off models and 25% of the pages actual rules content while having less over all pages.
Galef wrote: For the time being, BA/DA/SWs will stay separate Codices, but I 100% believe GW intend to make them into supplements for the upcoming Marine Codex.
It makes business sense for several reasons:
Mainly more books for you to buy and releases to get people hyped for new character models.
I could see GW doing this for all Marines (except DW & GKs) and all Chaos Marines.
The only way this doesn't happen is if these supplements bomb on sales and GW abandons the effort (which may happen). But considering that will leave BA/DA/SWs in an awkward position, no one should want this to happen.
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It would be the same number of books. Just instead of buying a $30 supplement, they'd be buying a $50 codex.
Lance845 wrote: Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.
Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.
Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.
Warmachine
Infinity
Flames of War
Battletech (books and maps only)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, they've done it with AoS. Granted, you need to Pay For Points, but at least one can have a gander at the overall abilities in an army before deciding if it's for you?
They've also done it with 40k, where the rules are literally in the box of models you bought. Complete with Power costs.
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Galef wrote: For the time being, BA/DA/SWs will stay separate Codices, but I 100% believe GW intend to make them into supplements for the upcoming Marine Codex.
It makes business sense for several reasons:
Mainly more books for you to buy and releases to get people hyped for new character models.
I could see GW doing this for all Marines (except DW & GKs) and all Chaos Marines.
The only way this doesn't happen is if these supplements bomb on sales and GW abandons the effort (which may happen). But considering that will leave BA/DA/SWs in an awkward position, no one should want this to happen.
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I don't think this is right. What likely is going to happen is that BA/DA/SWs will still be full Codices, just with a notation(like we have now in the Vanguard booklet) that they can take X/Y/Z from the units in C: Space Marines, replacing <Chapter> with BA/DA/SW.
You mean the game that just released a campaign/resource book and then also announced a whole new edition(around the same length of time in N3 as 40k8th)?
Yeah. I wouldn't call Infinity a good example of anything. Their rules are a legitimate bloated mess(some units have nested skills that make the old USRs look positively streamlined), they have ridiculous proofing errors, and they're in the midst of a "churn and burn" strategy reminiscent of Kirby-era GW.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, they've done it with AoS. Granted, you need to Pay For Points, but at least one can have a gander at the overall abilities in an army before deciding if it's for you?
They've also done it with 40k, where the rules are literally in the box of models you bought. Complete with Power costs.
This would be true IF the entire line was released that way when the new edition dropped. It's wasn't and still isn't. If I go to my local game store and buy a box of termagants they don't have 8th ed rules in the box.
Never mind all the errata and faqs needed to patch the failures.
I'm happy for players of some of the less populous Chapters that they're getting their own books (there was to be more than just White Scars getting some love, right?) and the concept of one big book for each army in general, with smaller add-ons for specific canon factions is interesting. Goes back to 3rd edition a bit. I'd be more interested if they announced this would be a plan going forward for all armies because then at least it would suggest some more sense to it all.
To address some of the points raised earlier in the thread, I'm very sure GW makes some rules good just to sell models, but agree not all. I'll bring up Grey Knights again where their fix to people complaining about poor rules was to make units cheaper and tell them to buy more models. The idea that 90+% of the armies in the game are hordes now disheartens me. Of course, sometimes models with really good rules just get nerfed or they stick a limit on them, but by then people have already bought the models so it's all good... For GW's wallet.
My first impression is, and still is, more bloat to an already bloated game. I'm not impressed; it seems people forgot GW's bullgak about less books, less bloat, etc.
So does this mean all my SM books are essentially worthless now? Because, THIS is why we pirate the books. Because of the "live service" way of business now infesting every medium of game play, be it video games, or board games, or even dungeons and dragons.
Wayniac wrote: My first impression is, and still is, more bloat to an already bloated game. I'm not impressed; it seems people forgot GW's bullgak about less books, less bloat, etc.
except did GW actually promise that? I recall a lot of websites saying "LESS BLOAT THIS TIME AROUND" etc but I don't recall GW ever saying that. in fact I find it highly likely that GW would say "WE'RE NOT GOING TO ADD THIS TO THE GAME THIS EDITION"
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
You can do both of those things. I'd be very happy if GW released a SW supplement but it would still be bloat.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
And you really need to start understanding what objective means.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
And you really need to start understanding what objective means.
the entire "problem" with bloat is a purely subjective issue. how many rules is too many? you will get a differant answer for every fething player.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
And you really need to start understanding what objective means.
I do. You're not being objective. You're trying to force your opinion (which is subjective), by presenting it as fact.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
And you really need to start understanding what objective means.
the entire "problem" with bloat is a purely subjective issue. how many rules is too many? you will get a differant answer for every fething player.
I understand why you would say this. I do.
But you are wrong.
You can objectively find a superior refined model. Every time you can accomplish the same thing with less rules it is objectively less bloated and likely (often - but not always) a superior product.
There is a concept that me and other designers have taken to calling an exception cascade. You write a rule or a set of rules for a game and thats fine. But the way in which you wrote those rules don't work because of the way you wrote them. So to patch it you write an exception. Example: First turn advantage exists because of the turn structure. So night fighting!
But then these exceptions have impacts on the rest of the fabric of the game. So you have to write more exceptions. And then they cascade...
The core rules of 40k are a fething mess. And then the codexes are a mess. And the stratagems are a mess. And all of these warrant exceptions. Rule of 3. Bolter Discipline. Angels of Death. etc etc...
And with every publication we get another FAQ errata to add more exceptions to correct more errors.
Objectively - The game is a bloated mess and every publication adds more bloated mess to the pile. You like THIS bit of the bloated mess because it allows the guys you like to function better within the sea of bloated mess. But objectively these options are just adding more cascading crap to the pile that is taking what was already a non elegant poorly made game and and making it more complicated, less elegant, and more of a bloated mess. SM might perform better. But the game itself has gotten worse in the process.
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
And you really need to start understanding what objective means.
the entire "problem" with bloat is a purely subjective issue. how many rules is too many? you will get a differant answer for every fething player.
I understand why you would say this. I do.
But you are wrong.
You can objectively find a superior refined model. Every time you can accomplish the same thing with less rules it is objectively less bloated and likely (often - but not always) a superior product.
There is a concept that me and other designers have taken to calling an exception cascade. You write a rule or a set of rules for a game and thats fine. But the way in which you wrote those rules don't work because of the way you wrote them. So to patch it you write an exception. Example: First turn advantage exists because of the turn structure. So night fighting!
But then these exceptions have impacts on the rest of the fabric of the game. So you have to write more exceptions. And then they cascade...
The core rules of 40k are a fething mess. And then the codexes are a mess. And the stratagems are a mess. And all of these warrant exceptions. Rule of 3. Bolter Discipline. Angels of Death. etc etc...
And with every publication we get another FAQ errata to add more exceptions to correct more errors.
Objectively - The game is a bloated mess and every publication adds more bloated mess to the pile. You like THIS bit of the bloated mess because it allows the guys you like to function better within the sea of bloated mess. But objectively these options are just adding more cascading crap to the pile that is taking what was already a non elegant poorly made game and and making it more complicated, less elegant, and more of a bloated mess.
The problem is, you don't know that the rules aren't 'refined'. And what level of streamlined is required to not be bloat is also a subjective position. Furthermore, these aren't patches, their rules evolution.
By exceptions, you mean factions.
That's subjective. Followed by subjective, More subjective, and a continuation of subjective.
Because GW is the only game with FAQ? 3.0and 4.0 D&D had entire books written to hold their FAQ (3.0 called it 3.5 just to give you an example of how much stuff got fixed).
Subjectively, you think the game is a bloated mess. You don't like them adding to the game, so you call it a bloated mess, because adding more than one small base state line confuses you. Because subjectively, these options are just adding more cascading crap (your words).
pm713 wrote: There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.
And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them
I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.
You really need to start understanding what subjective means.
And you really need to start understanding what objective means.
the entire "problem" with bloat is a purely subjective issue. how many rules is too many? you will get a differant answer for every fething player.
I understand why you would say this. I do.
But you are wrong.
You can objectively find a superior refined model. Every time you can accomplish the same thing with less rules it is objectively less bloated and likely (often - but not always) a superior product.
There is a concept that me and other designers have taken to calling an exception cascade. You write a rule or a set of rules for a game and thats fine. But the way in which you wrote those rules don't work because of the way you wrote them. So to patch it you write an exception. Example: First turn advantage exists because of the turn structure. So night fighting!
But then these exceptions have impacts on the rest of the fabric of the game. So you have to write more exceptions. And then they cascade...
The core rules of 40k are a fething mess. And then the codexes are a mess. And the stratagems are a mess. And all of these warrant exceptions. Rule of 3. Bolter Discipline. Angels of Death. etc etc...
And with every publication we get another FAQ errata to add more exceptions to correct more errors.
Objectively - The game is a bloated mess and every publication adds more bloated mess to the pile. You like THIS bit of the bloated mess because it allows the guys you like to function better within the sea of bloated mess. But objectively these options are just adding more cascading crap to the pile that is taking what was already a non elegant poorly made game and and making it more complicated, less elegant, and more of a bloated mess.
The problem is, you don't know that the rules aren't 'refined'. And what level of streamlined is required to not be bloat is also a subjective position.
I can look at ANY other game on the market as a comparison and see how much worse 8th ed is doing.
Furthermore, these aren't patches, their rules evolution.
Thats not a bug! It's a feature! EA isn't pitching gambling to kids, it's surprise mechanics!
By exceptions, you mean factions.
By exceptions I mean further breaking out of the constraints of the rules of the game. As SM grow like this now everyone else will need to grow in turn. Where are nid hive fleets pick 2 features? Or taus? Or orks? And if they don't get them then why not? And if they do get them then here comes another cascade of exceptions as the avalanche of rules create more problems that require more fixes.
That's subjective. Followed by subjective, More subjective, and a continuation of subjective.
Because GW is the only game with FAQ? 3.0and 4.0 D&D had entire books written to hold their FAQ (3.0 called it 3.5 just to give you an example of how much stuff got fixed).
GW is the only game with 50+ faqs released over the course of 2 years. At this point they almost have enough FAQs that they could have been releasing one every 2 weeks since 8th dropped.
Subjectively, you think the game is a bloated mess. You don't like them adding to the game, so you call it a bloated mess, because adding more than one small base state line confuses you. Because subjectively, these options are just adding more cascading crap (your words).
Seriously, no one is making you buy any of this.
And I won't be buying any of it. Again, I think you are too close to see the issues.
I can look at ANY other game on the market as a comparison and see how much worse 8th ed is doing.
yeah the best selling minis game on the market, clearly 8th edition is doing worse!
Every Michael Bay transformers movie makes a billion dollars. That doesn't make any of them good movies.
8ths RULES are doing worse. Apparently when discussing the rules I need to clarify that my comment is in reference to the rules and not the companies profit margins. Rest assured, I agree that GWs profits are up. This SM release will see a new fat stack of cash in their coifers when everyone runs out to buy 2 books and 2 decks of datacards and a new set of dice for their ultramarines despite already owning the LAST set of ultramarine dice, purchasing the last single set of datacards, and already owning the single book they needed previously. I am sure a great many of you will be very happy to make your new purchases.
I can look at ANY other game on the market as a comparison and see how much worse 8th ed is doing.
yeah the best selling minis game on the market, clearly 8th edition is doing worse!
Every Michael Bay transformers movie makes a billion dollars. That doesn't make any of them good movies.
I think what you are going for is that other games have superior rules, but are boring as hell to most people, while GW makes bad rules that are surprisingly fun and entertaining. That would actually explain the market bias while retaining your perspective on the issue.
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I am sure a great many of you will be very happy to make your new purchases.
I'll probably buy the dice. I like to collect dice. It is one of my vices.
I can look at ANY other game on the market as a comparison and see how much worse 8th ed is doing.
yeah the best selling minis game on the market, clearly 8th edition is doing worse!
Every Michael Bay transformers movie makes a billion dollars. That doesn't make any of them good movies.
I think what you are going for is that other games have superior rules, but are boring as hell to most people, while GW makes bad rules that are surprisingly fun and entertaining. That would actually explain the market bias while retaining your perspective on the issue.
I wouldn't say that. I would say other games have superior rules but the sheer up front investment to get into a wargame makes it prohibitive without a community of opponents. I can buy a board game that only me and a friend I see every 3 months enjoys and it costs me 40 bucks. Thats not THAT much of an investment. But a Mini wargame requires time in assembly and paint and a massive cash investment. If I don't have opponents even if it's cheaper than GW it's less likely to get purchases. These games live and die by their communities. GW for sure has the lions share of opponents. 40k is not entertaining to me. And I have seen a LOT of new and old players look at the rules with confusion and frustration... not entertainment. I can't say I have ever played a game of stock 40k that didn't devolve into the player whos-turn-it-is-not staring at their phone while waiting to find out how many saves they have to roll by turn 3.
There are other variables at play that account for GWs profitability. At this point I take my collection of models and I play apoc at regular 40k scale. I need a single book to play and the rules just work and the down time is basically non existent. Still GW, because opponent availability. But not 40k. That gaks a boring (subjective) mess (objective).
Mmmpi wrote: No, the problem for you is that I do understand.
But we've said our piece, so shall we go back to the main topic?
I am on topic. Bloat for the Bloat God. Rules for the Rule Throne. It's not my fault (or problem!) that you can't understand how "rules evolution" is an issue.
Games Workshop now adapting to the "live service" style of game that's plaguing the video game market. Can't say I'm surprised, but anyone thinking this is somehow in the customers' benefit are deluding themselves. We've seen this whole story before.
Mmmpi wrote: No, the problem for you is that I do understand.
But we've said our piece, so shall we go back to the main topic?
I am on topic. Bloat for the Bloat God. Rules for the Rule Throne. It's not my fault (or problem!) that you can't understand how "rules evolution" is an issue.
No, I meant the part where you tried to force your twisted opinion on everyone else, while trying to pass it off as fact, rather than an uneducated, logic-less mess.
part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
understand that these supplements etc offer OPTIONAL rules, you may choose to use or not, is entirely up to you.
now you may argue that "well some of these new options are better so I have to!" but using the D&D comparison again, no you don't. D&D often had arguably better stuff in their Splhat books too.
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
Hey guess what, Pathfinder solved this issue by having an open and free online compendium.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/
It's not hard to have an open ruleset online, it's just anti-capitalist to want to do so.
Ideally it's an online subscription based system, and grandpaps that dont want to learn the tech can cart around their wheelbarrows of books.
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
This reads more like a Devil's Advocate position than a persuasive one. Suggesting that the new books which add a bunch of rules and buffs and flavour to your army aren't necessary is certainly true. No debating that you don't need them to play the game. But you will lose to anyone who does have them. Better pay out to keep viable. Just like with Chapter Approved, which is a balance patch which you pay for. It's awful for the consumer.
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
understand that these supplements etc offer OPTIONAL rules, you may choose to use or not, is entirely up to you.
now you may argue that "well some of these new options are better so I have to!" but using the D&D comparison again, no you don't. D&D often had arguably better stuff in their Splhat books too.
As others may or may not have pointed out in those discussions dnd is a fundamentally different game with an arbitrator who is free to pick and choose what does and does not get used. Everyone sitting at their table knows the rules. Likewise when you go to a ITC tourney they spell out their rules because it's their tables.
When I meet some dude at the local game store we are supposed to be able to spend a couple hours playing the same game. There is no arbiter dictating what is and is not allowed. For that reason WH DOES require a cohesive set of rules for what is and is not allowed/up to date.
No, you don't need every book for every army to play. But you DO need a index and its FAQ errata and the core book and it's faq errata minimum. And if you want to use strats then you need the codex and it's faq errata, which just because 2 books for SM and will be 2 more faq erratas within weeks of their release. (Maybe they will pull a space wolves and release the faq errata before the actual release date of the product again). The fact that they let you bring old stuff if not in the new stuff means you might need the index anyway, which means also the flow chart for what is and is not allowed to transfer from the index to the codexes (this btw was a big fething mistake because bloat). And if you are playing with points then you need CA and IT'S faq errata.
It's easy to argue BCB is blowing it out of proportion. But he's not blowing it THAT out of proportion. It is an issue. And it's one thats going to get worse by the end of the month.
Said it since the beginning that the core game is so bare bones that it's going to take slapping layer after layer of USRs (unique special rules) on top to give it any "depth". It's the same looking bloat as 7th formation shenanigans but with less gameplay mechanics(edit- auto correct had a stroke) and more numbers to plug into the mathammerulator. 8th is bloating horribly because there just isn't much to work with in the core rules set so it needs more exceptions and stacking bonuses thrown in to keep things interesting. Just with 8th it seems like these rules injections are getting a lot less bang for your buck where as at least 7th campaign books typically had a lot of rules (formations) for multiple armies. Game complexity still pales in comparison to other editions while requiring as much if not more (paid for) sources.
These changes are also blatant power creep but nobody seems to want to point that out.
Vankraken wrote: Said it since the beginning that the core game is so bare bones that it's going to take slapping layer after layer of USRs (unique special rules) on top to give it any "depth". It's the same looking bloat as 7th formation shenanigans but with less game vhangongechanics and more numbers to plug into the mathammerulator. 8th is bloating horribly because there just isn't much to work with in the core rules set so it needs more exceptions and stacking bonuses thrown in to keep things interesting. Just with 8th it seems like these rules injections are getting a lot less bang for your buck where as at least 7th campaign books typically had a lot of rules (formations) for multiple armies. Game complexity still pales in comparison to other editions while requiring as much if not more (paid for) sources.
These changes are also blatant power creep but nobody seems to want to point that out.
Exactly this.
Are you ready for the "Terrain of the 41st Millennium" supplement to make terrain matter?
An online Core Rulebook is required, that includes ALL the CORE and OPTIONAL rules ever released. This needs to be free.
Army rules should also be online, but require a gated entry (ie, enter your unique product key found in the physical codex).
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
This reads more like a Devil's Advocate position than a persuasive one. Suggesting that the new books which add a bunch of rules and buffs and flavour to your army aren't necessary is certainly true. No debating that you don't need them to play the game. But you will lose to anyone who does have them. Better pay out to keep viable. Just like with Chapter Approved, which is a balance patch which you pay for. It's awful for the consumer.
The continuation of B-D's argument though is that in 40K, if you play UltraMarines, you need the UM supplement, the SM book, and the core rules. You don't need the Chaos Marines book, the eldar book, ect. Sure, maybe they're nice to read, but they don't actually add to your army. The Vigilus books add things, but they might not be things you want for your army.
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
This reads more like a Devil's Advocate position than a persuasive one. Suggesting that the new books which add a bunch of rules and buffs and flavour to your army aren't necessary is certainly true. No debating that you don't need them to play the game. But you will lose to anyone who does have them. Better pay out to keep viable. Just like with Chapter Approved, which is a balance patch which you pay for. It's awful for the consumer.
The continuation of B-D's argument though is that in 40K, if you play UltraMarines, you need the UM supplement, the SM book, and the core rules. You don't need the Chaos Marines book, the eldar book, ect. Sure, maybe they're nice to read, but they don't actually add to your army. The Vigilus books add things, but they might not be things you want for your army.
This would be the same amount as in 7th, the edition we agree was Bloat Hell. I don't see the difference personally.
Since Battletech was brought up earlier of a system that was good, I do feel obliged to note that battletech is actually a good example of bloat manage,ent. Battletech tends to have a lot of rules, useally a page or two at the back of their sourcebooks, however it's often pretty minimal because the player base eagerly gobbles up books with fluff. Btech can put out sourcebooks that are 200 pages of background info and a page of rules. 40k does that and people hate it. (see the 6th edition codex suppelments)
but moving on from this, many of the core important rules (stuff beyond the equivilant of narrative missions) later on get folded into the core rulebook the next time they put out a revamp of it. so yeah back when it first came out you needed to buy field manual federated suns for RAC 5 rules, but now the rules are in the tech manual.
obviously faction specific stuff is ahrd to do but I hope that stuff like new mission types etc introduced in CA are put into new printings of the core rule book down the line. which is what a living game system REALLY does. rather then each new edition being completely differant, it instead collects stuff that has developed organicly throughout the games lifetime into a single source
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
This reads more like a Devil's Advocate position than a persuasive one. Suggesting that the new books which add a bunch of rules and buffs and flavour to your army aren't necessary is certainly true. No debating that you don't need them to play the game. But you will lose to anyone who does have them. Better pay out to keep viable. Just like with Chapter Approved, which is a balance patch which you pay for. It's awful for the consumer.
The continuation of B-D's argument though is that in 40K, if you play UltraMarines, you need the UM supplement, the SM book, and the core rules. You don't need the Chaos Marines book, the eldar book, ect. Sure, maybe they're nice to read, but they don't actually add to your army. The Vigilus books add things, but they might not be things you want for your army.
And if playing points you need CA, and if you want to bring a librarian on a bike you need the index. and then you need the faqs for all of those.
Your UM bare minimum example still requires 6 publications if playing with power level. Why is that acceptable to you?
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
This reads more like a Devil's Advocate position than a persuasive one. Suggesting that the new books which add a bunch of rules and buffs and flavour to your army aren't necessary is certainly true. No debating that you don't need them to play the game. But you will lose to anyone who does have them. Better pay out to keep viable. Just like with Chapter Approved, which is a balance patch which you pay for. It's awful for the consumer.
The continuation of B-D's argument though is that in 40K, if you play UltraMarines, you need the UM supplement, the SM book, and the core rules. You don't need the Chaos Marines book, the eldar book, ect. Sure, maybe they're nice to read, but they don't actually add to your army. The Vigilus books add things, but they might not be things you want for your army.
This would be the same amount as in 7th, the edition we agree was Bloat Hell. I don't see the difference personally.
the problem I had with 7th edition was the USRs got a tad rediculas. you had USRS that granted several USRs which granted several USRS. if "doom bringer" grants the killer and murderer USR, why bother giving a unit the doombringer USR? why not just give them the killer and murderer USRs?
I completely agree with the redundant USRs in 7th (missle lock anyone?). 8th has the opposite problem, where a lot of stuff that should be USRs aren't. I think most people agree with things like Deep Strike and Feel No Pain becoming USRs would be an easy fix, and it looks like GW are moving back to this in their recent books.
BrianDavion wrote: Since Battletech was brought up earlier of a system that was good, I do feel obliged to note that battletech is actually a good example of bloat manage,ent. Battletech tends to have a lot of rules, useally a page or two at the back of their sourcebooks, however it's often pretty minimal because the player base eagerly gobbles up books with fluff. Btech can put out sourcebooks that are 200 pages of background info and a page of rules. 40k does that and people hate it. (see the 6th edition codex suppelments)
but moving on from this, many of the core important rules (stuff beyond the equivilant of narrative missions) later on get folded into the core rulebook the next time they put out a revamp of it. so yeah back when it first came out you needed to buy field manual federated suns for RAC 5 rules, but now the rules are in the tech manual.
obviously faction specific stuff is ahrd to do but I hope that stuff like new mission types etc introduced in CA are put into new printings of the core rule book down the line. which is what a living game system REALLY does. rather then each new edition being completely differant, it instead collects stuff that has developed organicly throughout the games lifetime into a single source
I actually brought it up as an example of a game who's books cost on par with GW codexes.
BrianDavion wrote: part of the problem 40k has with bloat is the assumption some people make that you need EVERYTHING. going abckll to how people have talked about D&D and pathfinder, D&D 3rd edition had somewhere in the ballpark of 60 books, no one in their right mind assumed you needed 60 books for every game, even if they had them all, they proably only used a handful, and then pulled out some other ones for special case circumstances. among the 40k player base there seems to be this impression that "NOTHING IS OPTIONAL" case in point BCB's claim that 8th edition has 80 some odd documents "Required" to play the game.
nevermind that if you're playing space marines vs chaos space marines, you might only need, between the two of you. 3 books (core rules and the codices) now obviously we can CHOOSE to add more to it. the CSM player might choose to play black legion and take vigilus ablaze for the formations and other abilities. I might choose to play an ultramarines list and take vigilus defiant the SM codex and the ultramarine supplement, but they're not NESSCARY.
This reads more like a Devil's Advocate position than a persuasive one. Suggesting that the new books which add a bunch of rules and buffs and flavour to your army aren't necessary is certainly true. No debating that you don't need them to play the game. But you will lose to anyone who does have them. Better pay out to keep viable. Just like with Chapter Approved, which is a balance patch which you pay for. It's awful for the consumer.
The continuation of B-D's argument though is that in 40K, if you play UltraMarines, you need the UM supplement, the SM book, and the core rules. You don't need the Chaos Marines book, the eldar book, ect. Sure, maybe they're nice to read, but they don't actually add to your army. The Vigilus books add things, but they might not be things you want for your army.
And if playing points you need CA, and if you want to bring a librarian on a bike you need the index. and then you need the faqs for all of those.
Or you and six friend buy CA and each photo copy the points changes.
Your UM bare minimum example still requires 6 publications if playing with power level. Why is that acceptable to you?
BrianDavion wrote: Since Battletech was brought up earlier of a system that was good, I do feel obliged to note that battletech is actually a good example of bloat manage,ent. Battletech tends to have a lot of rules, useally a page or two at the back of their sourcebooks, however it's often pretty minimal because the player base eagerly gobbles up books with fluff. Btech can put out sourcebooks that are 200 pages of background info and a page of rules. 40k does that and people hate it. (see the 6th edition codex suppelments)
but moving on from this, many of the core important rules (stuff beyond the equivilant of narrative missions) later on get folded into the core rulebook the next time they put out a revamp of it. so yeah back when it first came out you needed to buy field manual federated suns for RAC 5 rules, but now the rules are in the tech manual.
obviously faction specific stuff is ahrd to do but I hope that stuff like new mission types etc introduced in CA are put into new printings of the core rule book down the line. which is what a living game system REALLY does. rather then each new edition being completely differant, it instead collects stuff that has developed organicly throughout the games lifetime into a single source
I actually brought it up as an example of a game who's books cost on par with GW codexes.
yeah I was looking at the 2nd sucession war book in my local game shop a few months back and got a case of serious sticker shock, it was like 65 bucks. and it was a thin soft cover black and white book
And nothing they get is really well thought out for the game at that point.
