Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Are they inevitable?

Because so far there's no word on that either way.

Honest opinion, see late stage 7th with supplements, Nickel and diming in 8th for balance Patches in essence.

Imo the chances are fairly high that this will be the new, old, Norm.

At the same time however, the three non-condex chapters stayed separate, as did DW and Grey knights.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Are they inevitable?

Because so far there's no word on that either way.

Honest opinion, see late stage 7th with supplements, Nickel and diming in 8th for balance Patches in essence.

Imo the chances are fairly high that this will be the new, old, Norm.

At the same time however, the three non-condex chapters stayed separate, as did DW and Grey knights.

Yep, because they are allready monetized to the maximum ammount.
It's an obvious buisness move.

It certainly also has it's good sides to it with deeper more varied rules and unit choices.
Personally though you couldve also made a bigger book with more lists in it and exclude the really exotic stuff. (Arguably the GK's could've remained in a Inquisitorial book with 3 lists?) But he, why sell you a book for 75£ when i can sell you 3-4 for 40£ each, spread around differing months?
It looks better for investors aswell.

The Grey Knights were never in a combined Inquisitorial book. The closet was the Demonhunters book from 3rd ed.

As for the BA/DA/SW, there's no evidence that's what's going to happen.

The writing on the wall. You are just sticking your head in the ground.

 Lance845 wrote:
The writing on the wall. You are just sticking your head in the ground.

Or you're reading far too much into nothing.
While it could be the case, right now there's no proof.

For the time being, BA/DA/SWs will stay separate Codices, but I 100% believe GW intend to make them into supplements for the upcoming Marine Codex.

It makes business sense for several reasons:
Mainly more books for you to buy and releases to get people hyped for new character models.
I could see GW doing this for all Marines (except DW & GKs) and all Chaos Marines.

The only way this doesn't happen is if these supplements bomb on sales and GW abandons the effort (which may happen). But considering that will leave BA/DA/SWs in an awkward position, no one should want this to happen.

-

Much as I hated the execution of Supplements in 3rd Ed, I don't think they're necessarily a bad thing.

Consider.

Most Marine units across Codecies are the same. Tactical is a Tactical. Devastator is a Devastator, yeah?

Some Chapters get specific replacement infantry (notably Space Woofs). All Chapters get their own Special Characters.

To have a central tome covering the common/shared units does make a certain amount of sense.

The Supplements are then free to pack in the flavour, rather than just swapping out a few pages here and there.

The execution. That's what this is gonna boil down to. That's where the 3rd Ed ones choked. They weren't so much supplements, as expensive pamphlets. And boy was their variation in effectiveness. Blood Angels became the Beardy Gitz choice. Dark Angels? Erm....your Terminators are fearless? So whilst the concept is sound, they need to make sure each supplement is worth the price of admission. Not 'every single one has to be top tier' or owt. Just that there's sufficient content to justify splitting off.

Thinking about it, it's much the same opinion as I had about the Necromunda relaunch. Many were understandably miffed that the rules for the six houses were being split. And I share that miffedness. But, we were promised further content in each volume. For me? That's more or less what I got. I'm not saying they nailed it - that's for the individual, as ever. But I was happy enough (though the new method is much improved).

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.

i know its been gone over before but,

would free (legit) rules really harm GW ? The faithful would still buy physical books, the middlings may see it as an excuse to spend the same but end up with more toys and naysayers like me would lose a source of pish taking

Well, they've done it with AoS. Granted, you need to Pay For Points, but at least one can have a gander at the overall abilities in an army before deciding if it's for you?

First of all, the datasheets included in the book will be available to all the First Founding Chapters and their successors, so whichever Space Marine Chapter(s) hold your allegiance, you’ll be able to use the full spectrum of units available to the Adeptus Astartes – even if you’re a Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels player!

Anyone else think it's priceless that we had a tens-of-pages freakout over this, days before they announce a complete fix?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I don't love, however, is that unless there are further changes, my Banshees now lose CC against BA Tac Marines point-for-point. But then, Banshees are skirmishers, all about movement, not killiness.

Well, thank god for those russian downloadable PDFs from russian botted sites!

 sfshilo wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.

There is an example on the last page. Go check it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/04/pre-order-preview-the-adeptus-astartes/

So Codex SM

Supplement Chapter.

Datacards SM

Datacards supplement Chapter.

lol.

 sfshilo wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.

I dunno what you mean about close, is it amount of content, quaility/fun, playstyle, scale, priceworth, popularity?

Here are some good wargames:
Lion rampant, warband (pendraken) , hail ceasar, warmaster, bolt action, dropzone commander, gates of antares, saga, x-wing.

Some of those have very low cost compared to 40k, some are similar costs bit nothing has as expensive rule books. The only games i know with such expensive rule books are role playing games, like eon or dnd where you can buy expansions to the extreme.

Gitdakka wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.

I dunno what you mean about close, is it amount of content, quaility/fun, playstyle, scale, priceworth, popularity?

Here are some good wargames:
Lion rampant, warband (pendraken) , hail ceasar, warmaster, bolt action, dropzone commander, gates of antares, saga, x-wing.

Some of those have very low cost compared to 40k, some are similar costs bit nothing has as expensive rule books. The only games i know with such expensive rule books are role playing games, like eon or dnd where you can buy expansions to the extreme.

And the RPG books have a similar price point for cover to cover rules and content with better bindings (generally) and superior layouts with indexes and such to make the content much easier to navigate. GWs books just reprint the same bits of fluff over and over with 10-25% of the pages being splash page adds to show off models and 25% of the pages actual rules content while having less over all pages.

 Galef wrote:
For the time being, BA/DA/SWs will stay separate Codices, but I 100% believe GW intend to make them into supplements for the upcoming Marine Codex.

It makes business sense for several reasons:
Mainly more books for you to buy and releases to get people hyped for new character models.
I could see GW doing this for all Marines (except DW & GKs) and all Chaos Marines.

The only way this doesn't happen is if these supplements bomb on sales and GW abandons the effort (which may happen). But considering that will leave BA/DA/SWs in an awkward position, no one should want this to happen.

-

It would be the same number of books. Just instead of buying a $30 supplement, they'd be buying a $50 codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

Like what, name a tabletop game system that even comes close to Warhammer 40k? This is no different then the overpriced models nonsense we hear all the time. Internet echo chambers do not make it true.

Warmachine
Infinity
Flames of War
Battletech (books and maps only)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, they've done it with AoS. Granted, you need to Pay For Points, but at least one can have a gander at the overall abilities in an army before deciding if it's for you?

They've also done it with 40k, where the rules are literally in the box of models you bought. Complete with Power costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
For the time being, BA/DA/SWs will stay separate Codices, but I 100% believe GW intend to make them into supplements for the upcoming Marine Codex.

It makes business sense for several reasons:
Mainly more books for you to buy and releases to get people hyped for new character models.
I could see GW doing this for all Marines (except DW & GKs) and all Chaos Marines.

The only way this doesn't happen is if these supplements bomb on sales and GW abandons the effort (which may happen). But considering that will leave BA/DA/SWs in an awkward position, no one should want this to happen.
-

I don't think this is right. What likely is going to happen is that BA/DA/SWs will still be full Codices, just with a notation(like we have now in the Vanguard booklet) that they can take X/Y/Z from the units in C: Space Marines, replacing <Chapter> with BA/DA/SW.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Infinity

You mean the game that just released a campaign/resource book and then also announced a whole new edition(around the same length of time in N3 as 40k8th)?

Yeah. I wouldn't call Infinity a good example of anything. Their rules are a legitimate bloated mess(some units have nested skills that make the old USRs look positively streamlined), they have ridiculous proofing errors, and they're in the midst of a "churn and burn" strategy reminiscent of Kirby-era GW.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, they've done it with AoS. Granted, you need to Pay For Points, but at least one can have a gander at the overall abilities in an army before deciding if it's for you?

They've also done it with 40k, where the rules are literally in the box of models you bought. Complete with Power costs.

This would be true IF the entire line was released that way when the new edition dropped. It's wasn't and still isn't. If I go to my local game store and buy a box of termagants they don't have 8th ed rules in the box.

Never mind all the errata and faqs needed to patch the failures.

Just dropping it here.

The new SM codex is 25 euros, which means 35$. Quite a lot cheaper than expected.

At the same time the supplements are more expensive than my guess, 30$.

People with hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollar of plastic figs can afford a rules book or two or three or a dozen.

I'm happy for players of some of the less populous Chapters that they're getting their own books (there was to be more than just White Scars getting some love, right?) and the concept of one big book for each army in general, with smaller add-ons for specific canon factions is interesting. Goes back to 3rd edition a bit. I'd be more interested if they announced this would be a plan going forward for all armies because then at least it would suggest some more sense to it all.

To address some of the points raised earlier in the thread, I'm very sure GW makes some rules good just to sell models, but agree not all. I'll bring up Grey Knights again where their fix to people complaining about poor rules was to make units cheaper and tell them to buy more models. The idea that 90+% of the armies in the game are hordes now disheartens me. Of course, sometimes models with really good rules just get nerfed or they stick a limit on them, but by then people have already bought the models so it's all good... For GW's wallet.

My first impression is, and still is, more bloat to an already bloated game. I'm not impressed; it seems people forgot GW's bullgak about less books, less bloat, etc.

So does this mean all my SM books are essentially worthless now? Because, THIS is why we pirate the books. Because of the "live service" way of business now infesting every medium of game play, be it video games, or board games, or even dungeons and dragons.

Upon release yes.

The most current publication is the only valid publication for those rules/datasheets.

Wayniac wrote:
My first impression is, and still is, more bloat to an already bloated game. I'm not impressed; it seems people forgot GW's bullgak about less books, less bloat, etc.

except did GW actually promise that? I recall a lot of websites saying "LESS BLOAT THIS TIME AROUND" etc but I don't recall GW ever saying that. in fact I find it highly likely that GW would say "WE'RE NOT GOING TO ADD THIS TO THE GAME THIS EDITION"

There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.

pm713 wrote:
There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.

And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.

And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them

You can do both of those things. I'd be very happy if GW released a SW supplement but it would still be bloat.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.

And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them

I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.

 Lance845 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's a difference between not adding things and not bloating.

And I suspect the differance is in the eye of the beholder. you might see supplement ultramarines as bloat, whereas someone who plays ultramarines might be excited to have some unique options for them

I suspect that the people really excited to receive bloat for themselves are too close to the issue to see the problems.

You really need to start understanding what subjective means.