Bloat for the Bloat God! Rules for the Rule Throne!

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**Martel732**

Good money after the bad and all that. Chucking your army saves money.

**Hollow**

Yep... and you could do us all a favour Peregine and throw yourself in with it.

I like the idea of a main "Vanilla Codex" with smaller supplements. It would be great if they did it for all factions.

**Argive**

redboi wrote:
Supplements seem like the best way to go for SM imo

Hopefully they roll SW BA and DA into supplements as well rather than a whole new codex

I don't understand why people are saying BA/SW wont need/have a codex as they will have supplement...

The supplements ARE the new codexes. Just smaller and maybe(probably?) cheaper.

This change is good. Maybe we will see less bitter complaining about how marines are gak.

**Dr. Mills**

Lance845 wrote:
Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

I don't use the named characters and as such I use the "successor chapter" rule to give them certain traits. Currently running them as crimson fists to use the vigils detatchment. Pretty fun.

The best I can hope for in regards of proper chapter trait rules us WD, but with the ability to pick n' mix in the new Codex, yeah I'm OK with that.

**BrianDavion**

Peregrine wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it.

"If you don't like it you can just quit and throw your whole investment in the trash".

or just buy the one codex and play with that. worst case scenerio.. you lose access to the rules for 2 or 3 of your characters as an ultramarines player.

**Lance845**

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it. I however am happy to see GW giving us more source material. but I admit I do a lot of RPGs and am a guy who happily kept up with D&D 3rd edition which released two sourcebooks a month during it's run

None of 3rd sourcebooks invalidated the rest of 3rd. None of them were reprints of previous books until 3.5.

**BrianDavion**

Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it. I however am happy to see GW giving us more source material. but I admit I do a lot of RPGs and am a guy who happily kept up with D&D 3rd edition which released two sourcebooks a month during it's run

None of 3rd sourcebooks invalidated the rest of 3rd. None of them were reprints of previous books until 3.5.

the codex supplements won't invalidate anything, and we all knew a new marine codex was coming.

**Eonfuzz**

Codex supplements are a cheeky way of releasing codexes for all the marine factions once again before any xenos factions get their share of the pie.

What does this mean? We're back to 7th era and before, where it's now thoughts and prayers that will drive your non-mahrine codex releases.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Argive wrote:
redboi wrote:
Supplements seem like the best way to go for SM imo

Hopefully they roll SW BA and DA into supplements as well rather than a whole new codex

I don't understand why people are saying BA/SW wont need/have a codex as they will have supplement...

The supplements ARE the new codexes. Just smaller and maybe(probably?) cheaper.

This change is good. Maybe we will see less bitter complaining about how marines are gak.

Supplements will still be the full price, probably.
Hopefully all the different flavours of candy don't get their special release time slot, as they can all be handled in these smaller supplements.

**Vankraken**

8th is continuing down the multi rules source path to becoming (or already is) a bloated mess and yet is still a horribly bare bones game with rudimentary rules. What's shocking is how people embrace this mess when multiple supplements for an army was a hot button issue in 7th. Of course GW is laughing to the bank as people buy these content thin supplements for premium prices.

**Eonfuzz**

Vankraken wrote:
8th is continuing down the multi rules source path to becoming (or already is) a bloated mess and yet is still a horribly bare bones game with rudimentary rules. What's shocking is how people embrace this mess when multiple supplements for an army was a hot button issue in 7th. Of course GW is laughing to the bank as people buy these content thin supplements for premium prices.

Imagine the documents you'll have to use as a mahrine player now.

CORE RULES
FAQ

ERRATA - CORE RULES
ERRATA - FAQ

INDEX: HUMIES
CODEX: MARINES
CODEX: MY FLAVOURED MARINE

ERRATA - INDEX
ERRATA - MARINES
ERRATA - MY FLAVOURED MARINE

CHAPTER - APPROVED
ERRATA - CHAPTER - APPROVED

**ccs**

Peregrine wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?

Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.

GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.

**Lance845**

ccs wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?

Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.

GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.

Yes, the rule were for 2 editions a pyrovore exploded an entire table was written on purpose to sell models.

**Eonfuzz**

ccs wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?

Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.

GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.

This is some seriously tinfoil hat grogan.
Are you no joke telling me that GamesWorkshop added +1 STR and +1 toughness to ammo grots in Killteam just to sell models they dont have in store?

Hotdamn that's some 200 IQ stuff, I guess they must be releasing Omega Ammo Runts come Orktober l m a o

**HoundsofDemos**

While some of GWs releases and rules are clearly designed to drive sale, I attribute most the general rule imbalance to be that the people writing the rules seem to play the game in it's most ideal condition. In a limited group that mostly has the same vision for the game and has essentially unlimited access to models and just saying yea play it that way.

Given the scale that standard 40k is trying to represent at this point, the rules just break down. Between the limits of a D6 and trying to represent everything from a grot to a titan, the system breaks down. GW continues to try and compensate for that inherent weakness by returning to 7th style special rules/ supplements for everyone

**ERJAK**

Lance845 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.

I didnt say infinity.

Pick a rules system then. The only ones whose books aren't stupidly overpriced are the ones that are free, and things like malifaux where it's literally just the rules in the smallest booklet they could make. Bolt action, warmahordes, infinity, etc, all overpriced nonsense.

**Mmmpi**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Congrats, everyone. Now instead of what could've been an easy consolidation of the Marine armies into one comprehensive army, we now get a Marine codex with the supplements we all know and love, just like in 7th edition.

We were promised less bloat, and this is quite the opposite. Now GW listened to you folks that said "We NeEd RuLeS fOr EvErYtHiNg!!!!1!" as we revert to a bad time in the game's life.

You mean the consolidation that only a few people wanted?

**ERJAK**

Eonfuzz wrote:
ccs wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Can someone confiscate this guy's parrot and peg leg, please?

Why are you talking about piracy? I'm not saying "it's overpriced because I can pirate it", I'm saying "it's overpriced because charging any non-zero amount update for an errata document for a book GW has already sold everyone is overpriced". The codex update should be a free pdf so that anyone who already bought the codex doesn't have to buy two new books just because GW is incompetent at making balanced rules.

GW is not incompetent at making balanced rules. They could do it any time they wanted to. But they don't want to & so don't.
Instead? They INTENTIONALLY (and very competently) make them imbalanced in order to sell you the next book, the one after that, the next one, etc. And eventually a new edition with the cycle starting all over.

This is some seriously tinfoil hat grogan.
Are you no joke telling me that GamesWorkshop added +1 STR and +1 toughness to ammo grots in Killteam just to sell models they dont have in store?

Hotdamn that's some 200 IQ stuff, I guess they must be releasing Omega Ammo Runts come Orktober l m a o

It's not JUST tinfoil hat, it's also arse slowed. GW doesn't and has NEVER understood their rules well enough to make things overpowered on purpose without causing community banhammers to come down.

If you honestly, truly still believe, after YEARS of primaris being absolute doggak, that GW is making things deliberately OP to sell models, and just lets their flagship releases languish in the dusty cupboards of hardcore marine fanboys, then you're being irrational.

**Apple fox**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While some of GWs releases and rules are clearly designed to drive sale, I attribute most the general rule imbalance to be that the people writing the rules seem to play the game in it's most ideal condition. In a limited group that mostly has the same vision for the game and has essentially unlimited access to models and just saying yea play it that way.

Given the scale that standard 40k is trying to represent at this point, the rules just break down. Between the limits of a D6 and trying to represent everything from a grot to a titan, the system breaks down. GW continues to try and compensate for that inherent weakness by returning to 7th style special rules/ supplements for everyone

I always just thought of it like the rules team getting everything at the last moment, and having short deadlines for everything.

And nothing they get is really well thought out for the game at that point.

**Eonfuzz**

Not to mention Eisenhorn statline been given 1 wound and a 6++ lmao.

Hanlon's Razor my friend. Apply it to everything GW does.

**Lance845**

ERJAK wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Heads up. 40 is still over priced. Other companies produce higher quality hardcovers with better features and more content for lower price per page. Pdfs of those other companies books cost 15.00 to gws 35.

Unless the codexes start costing 20-30 for the biggest ones its all over priced.

That's your opinion. I personally find Infinity's books far too overpriced for the content they give.

I didnt say infinity.

Pick a rules system then. The only ones whose books aren't stupidly overpriced are the ones that are free, and things like malifaux where it's literally just the rules in the smallest booklet they could make. Bolt action, warmahordes, infinity, etc, all overpriced nonsense.

Walk into a game store. Find some hardcovers, pick them up and check out their quality and content. Probably 90% are rock solid deals for content, page count, physical quality, layout/formatting/art. GW is a trash heap by comparison.

Check this out.

https://us-store.warlordgames.com/products/beyond-the-gates-of-antares-rulebook

Book Contents:

- A break-down of all of the game rules, easing you into the new system
- An extensive Terrain section, outlining dozens of different terrain types to be found in the Antarean universe
- An Armoury section, featuring entries (and blueprints!) of the various weapon technologies used in Antares
- More advances rules for using Mounted Units, Vehicles, Buildings and more
- A section detailing just a handful of the different creatures which inhabit Antarean space
- 6 Matched Scenarios, and 6 Narrative Scenarios
- Full Army Lists for 6 factions
- A detailed timeline of Antarean Space, including Star Map and dedicated sections for each specific faction
- Quick Reference Sheet, Weapons Summary, and Templates Section to the rear of the book

259 pages. 48.00.

If you wanted the core rule book and 6 armys datasheets for GW you would need 7 books at 360.00.

This one book lets you start playing with any of the 6 factions at less than the cost of a single codex while having the back of the book as one big quick reference sheet for turn structure, orders, special rules reference, etc...

Now... I understand that GW has more units. But that doesn't mean any of those codexes have the content to justify the price.

Just an example.

**Mmmpi**

@Lancer

you just got a thread locked for this.

**Lance845**

Mmmpi wrote:
@Lancer

you just got a thread locked for this.

I recommend you don't try to drag your argument with me from that other thread into this one. I am having a conversation with people who can carry a conversation over here. If you want to talk to me about what happened in that thread I suggest you send me a PM. I promise. I will totally read those PMs. In here, drop it.

(It's Lance btw. Not Lancer. I know, it's hard.)

**ingtaer**

Yes, please drop it and don't drag this thread into the same pointless and increasingly rude spiral argument of the last.

**Not Online!!!**

Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.

Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.

**Lance845**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.

Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.

Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.

Totally better.

**Mmmpi**

Are they inevitable?

Because so far there's no word on that either way.

**BrianDavion**

Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.

Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.

Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.

Totally better.

then maybe you should go play all those ohh so better games you talk about?

**Lance845**

BrianDavion wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.

Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.

Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.

Totally better.

then maybe you should go play all those ohh so better games you talk about?

I do. It's apocalypse. 100.00 box for the rule book (with WAY better core rules) all the chits you need and every units data released online for free. General balance is a lot better too. Highly recommend for everyone. But do you have a point about the topic in a comment like that? Is this one of those "Criticism is not welcome here" posts?

**BrianDavion**

Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.

Aye, the only thing that happened is instead of v9.0 we now get v.8.2. The miliking circle now just gets spread a bit more.

Except Codex Sm is v8.2. And supplement ultramarines is 8.2.1. And white scars is 8.2.2. And the inevitable BA, DA, and SW will be 8.2.7, 8.2.8. and 8.2.9 respectively.

Totally better.

then maybe you should go play all those ohh so better games you talk about?

I do. It's apocalypse. 100.00 box for the rule book (with WAY better core rules) all the chits you need and every units data released online for free. General balance is a lot better too. Highly recommend for everyone. But do you have a point about the topic in a comment like that? Is this one of those "Criticism is not welcome here" posts?

it's a "we're getting tired of constant cirticism over gak that's minor elague" seriously if you're offended with GW giving us more options then umm.. ok.

every game system tends to get more and more rules added, because thats the nature of gaming systems.

**Not Online!!!**

Mmmpi wrote:
Are they inevitable?

Because so far there's no word on that either way.

Honest opinion, see late stage 7th with supplements, Nickel and diming in 8th for balance Patches in essence.

Imo the chances are fairly high that this will be the new, old, Norm.