For a rules subscription service with GW that offers access to digital copies of all released content that is updated regularly (CA, Codexes, Campaigns, etc).

I feel like the only way out of the mess of buyer's remorse is for GW to create a subscription service. Something that allows them to produce fluffy content without needing to couple it to rules hooks to get more buyers.

If you cancel you lose access to all documents.

Errata and FAQs remain free.

what "buyer's remorse"? the outrage that you have to download a few bits and blobs of FAQs in addition to your codices? the end result would be you'd pay more and get, possiably less.

no what GW needs to do if provide each hard cover book with a code for a free download of an electronic copy of the codex that is updated periodicly with FAQ and errata stuff, no idiot subscription, a one time purchase. many RPG companies do exactly this and it works quite nicely. It rewards people who purchase the physical book, by giving them a free copy of the digital as well.
as opposed to this scheme which would punish anyone who prefers the physical copy by locking them out of Errata, by forcing them to buy yet another product.

no more subscription services, I'm tired of the steady nickle and dime. How about they put out free updated rules, optional rules books to buy, and we just pay the model costs which grow ever larger by each release.

edit : I Also agree with the buy physical also get digital updated codex.

I'd pay for their rules if they demonstrated a minimal degree of competence in writing them. (Funny how the people who write functional rules (FFG, WotC, PP, CB...) don't charge me for them and the people who write the worst rules (GW) do...)

BrianDavion wrote:
what "buyer's remorse"? the outrage that you have to download a few bits and blobs of FAQs in addition to your codices? the end result would be you'd pay more and get, possiably less.

no what GW needs to do if provide each hard cover book with a code for a free download of an electronic copy of the codex that is updated periodicly with FAQ and errata stuff, no idiot subscription, a one time purchase. many RPG companies do exactly this and it works quite nicely. It rewards people who purchase the physical book, by giving them a free copy of the digital as well.
as opposed to this scheme which would punish anyone who prefers the physical copy by locking them out of Errata, by forcing them to buy yet another product.

Well, I'm exploring that the break point for people would be.

The buyer's remorse is buying a book for your army, not being interested in the fluff much, and then discovering the rules are of no use to you. There exists a dynamic where GW is a slave to itself -- forced to write books with rules hooks to increases purchases. Giving them a steady stream of income could free them up a little, perhaps?

I added an option to reflect a digital code with the purchase of a book.

Errata and FAQs would continue to be free.

Nope, zero interest in a monthly fee for rules. Frequent changes in rules/balance? Pass.

I like physical rulebooks, for one, but more importantly, I expect a company to get it "right" to begin with, by play testing rigorously and releasing rules for all armies at once, then making balance changes as needed. New units should have their rules included in the box!

1-2€ / month would make me consider it, anything more- no thanks. 60€/year for making me print the books on my own? Absolutely not.
Give me the Code when buying the book, I'd take that.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
1-2€ / month would make me consider it, anything more- no thanks. 60€/year for making me print the books on my own? Absolutely not.
Give me the Code when buying the book, I'd take that.

No printing - just digital. Well...I guess you could print them.

I put down 60, but I would still require them to write something worth a sub for. Even at 60 a year I think they would be as much as I spend on other rule sets over there time of use.

Probably the best value would be regular updates to factions that do not get them often as part of the service. But GW I think is still in the stage of trying to ignore the internet.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For a rules subscription service with GW that offers access to digital copies of all released content that is updated regularly (CA, Codexes, Campaigns, etc).

I feel like the only way out of the mess of buyer's remorse is for GW to create a subscription service. Something that allows them to produce fluffy content without needing to couple it to rules hooks to get more buyers.

If you cancel you lose access to all documents.

Errata and FAQs remain free.

Nope.

I've paid gw enough for books. Never again.

I want my books in hand and not digital. That being said, it can't be the way for GW.
They have proven again and again that they are incapable of writing cohesive rules or even refused to update their existing books in future print runs, see the "new" The Rules for 40k. And even new publications no longer give you all the rules you want or need, the SM codex is a disaster with the full rules for codex-compliant chapters scattered through various supplements or campaign books.
I regret every 40k book I bought from GW since 6th edition.

(As a sidenote, I thoroughly enjoy the AoS books. The team is much better at writing rules and the supplements feel optional instead of a forced buy.)

As much as I'd like to see a 40k app with regular updated rules with the basics being free (and buy the army supplements you need, which are updated with the "optional" rules from campaign books on release), I can't see it happening. They make good money with books and people will buy it anyway, because the need or want to stay up to date with the rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Giving them a steady stream of income could free them up a little, perhaps?

I added an option to reflect a digital code with the purchase of a book.

Errata and FAQs would continue to be free.

We have a saying in Poland that goes like this. give a man a hand, and he will take the whole arm. I don't think that giving extra money to GW would somehow stop them from doing stuff the way they did in the past. A code with a book would be a great. And a digital book, should never cost as much as a paper back one. Thought I strongly doubt GW would do any of those two.

I would never buy into a game system where I would lose access when I stop paying.

Also, considering I already have access to Battlescribe, what could GW offer that would entice me to buy in?

I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

GW sells outdated rules, and refuses to update them in reprints (40k: The Rules from last month has the unchanged, horribly outdated Core Rules).
GW sells yearly rules updates/patches in Chapter Approved.
GW sells little rules snippet in campaign books (Vigilus and now again with Psychic Awakening - granted, some armies suffer more than others).

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

GW sells outdated rules, and refuses to update them in reprints (40k: The Rules from last month has the unchanged, horribly outdated Core Rules).
GW sells yearly rules updates/patches in Chapter Approved.
GW sells little rules snippet in campaign books (Vigilus and now again with Psychic Awakening - granted, some armies suffer more than others).

This is truth, GW does all of those things in different ways. The only thing I disliked, a lot , with how FFG runs things is when they switched from 1st to 2nd edition of X wing and expected me to rebuy tons of new cards for my old ships, or just rebuy all my old things. Though GW do plenty of nickle and dime tactics to cost you plenty, FFG seems to be charting their own annoying course.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

But you do have to buy 3 Predators. You still need the models to play 40k, the difference is that a system like X-Wing also gives you the rules when you buy the model and doesn't charge you extra for the rules on the side. It's not a perfect system by any means, but given the cost difference between 40k and X-Wing, focussing on how FFG rip you off while GW don't is an interesting take on things. Sure, you can use old models in new editions but FFG provided pretty good value with the conversion kits for 2nd edition X-Wing - each one cheaper than getting the new 40k rulebook and a Codex.

As far as the OP goes, I'd be unwilling to pay for a subscription for rules at all, at least from GW. I think charging for rules in general is quite an outdated concept now and GW seem to have some of the worst rules in terms of quality and balance. Other companies provide rules for free and update them as required, all while maintaining better balance than GW can manage. There's also the problem that there are so many factions in 40k now I might not see any return on my subscription money in a given year. It's quite possible 12 months could pass without a single model or rules update for any of my factions.

Shame there isn't a "nothing so long the rules updates are not up to par" .

I mean if GW would atleast deliver a service worthy of such a thing, (fast updates, tighter rulewriting, etc. Maybee some extra goodies) then i'd be okay with it.


Further i am a book guy.

Returning to 40k after sooooo long away is bemusing for me.

As im going to be playing friendly at home games ive decided to just play the rules as in the books/codex's (codex's arrive today in the post).

Its already confusing enough with army lists...Battalions and what not for somebody coming back to it after 25 or so years away without trying to hunt down all the latest updated rules etc.

Slipspace wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

But you do have to buy 3 Predators. You still need the models to play 40k, the difference is that a system like X-Wing also gives you the rules when you buy the model and doesn't charge you extra for the rules on the side. It's not a perfect system by any means, but given the cost difference between 40k and X-Wing, focussing on how FFG rip you off while GW don't is an interesting take on things. Sure, you can use old models in new editions but FFG provided pretty good value with the conversion kits for 2nd edition X-Wing - each one cheaper than getting the new 40k rulebook and a Codex.

As far as the OP goes, I'd be unwilling to pay for a subscription for rules at all, at least from GW. I think charging for rules in general is quite an outdated concept now and GW seem to have some of the worst rules in terms of quality and balance. Other companies provide rules for free and update them as required, all while maintaining better balance than GW can manage. There's also the problem that there are so many factions in 40k now I might not see any return on my subscription money in a given year. It's quite possible 12 months could pass without a single model or rules update for any of my factions.

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

I'll take a code with my book like what happens with most records people buy.

Code with the book for me. I prefer the physical book overall and I think that as a product to present to new gamers and people who aren't even gamers its a far more engaging item than a digital product. Consider how many in the hobby love their old battletomes and codex and big rule books for the artwork, lore and background to their factions - stuff that if it were digital they'd likely pass it right by.

So on that score I'd never want to see the physical books go away.

Giving gamers a code for an online version when you buy the physical would make a good amount of sense; they get the same content just in digital form and if you've bought one version you're unlikely to want the other. It would likely encourage digital use and if GW were smart they could pair that policy with a subscribption based army builder system (or a free one)

BrianDavion 782348 10626265 wrote:

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

unless you want lucky dice for tournaments, then you have to spend a lot of money to get same looking moded dice, that you can only tell the difference by touch. They cost a lot too. almost 2,50$ per dice.

GW would almost certainly overcharge for that service. Like more that that $360/a year.

The single biggest problem with a subscription is that GW would be incentivised to not work on rules. You currently buy rules because they’re changing. If GW doesn’t change them, they STILL get your subscription money. So they’re not motivated to change the rules.

A properly implemented system would allow you to get all rules the release as long as you have the subscription, and you stop receiving updates once you cancel it.

$60 or 55€ would be pushing it, but getting an updated Codex+CA+some campaign book to just read the fluff or get something like the character rules each year is probably OK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sorcererbob wrote:
The single biggest problem with a subscription is that GW would be incentivised to not work on rules. You currently buy rules because they’re changing. If GW doesn’t change them, they STILL get your subscription money. So they’re not motivated to change the rules.

The dumb thing about GW is that they actually think this way. Despite their huge successes with 8th, they still don't get that great rules sell more models than bad rules or rules trying to manipulate us into buying certain things.

Sorcererbob wrote:
The single biggest problem with a subscription is that GW would be incentivised to not work on rules. You currently buy rules because they’re changing. If GW doesn’t change them, they STILL get your subscription money. So they’re not motivated to change the rules.

But they would need to come up with something to keep players, and new models would be coming to necessitate rules changes. We may see factions getting lots of little changes and add ons rather than having to wait for a big release or a book.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 782348 10626265 wrote:

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

unless you want lucky dice for tournaments, then you have to spend a lot of money to get same looking moded dice, that you can only tell the difference by touch. They cost a lot too. almost 2,50$ per dice.

Karol, idiots being willing to buy special dice (if those dice really do give you an advantage they're weighted dice and are CHEATING) is entire;y differant from proparitory dice. I'm talking dice that replace the numbers with sopecial symbols in odd patterns to force you to buy a dice pack from the company for your game. something FFG LOVES to do with their RPGs.

I thought that the wierd stuff on GW dice was put there so you can more easily weight them to specific sides, or file them off to get same effect.

Various things, honestly. I would like either a code with each book to download a digital copy, or something like War Room was for Warmahordes (IMHO one of the best army building apps ever) where you either unlocked a faction, or paid a flat fee (It was like $60 and then went to $99 I believe) to get everything, along with any updates and new books for the lifetime of the edition. So for example when I bought that and a new book came out, I got the updated units (but not the book, that was extra). When they added a new faction, I got all of the information on the faction.

Basically I want Azyr without having to buy all of the extra separately. Pay a flat fee or a larger monthly sub, and you get access to all of the units (already get this), the army builder, battleplans, battalions, etc. for as long as you subscribe, with the option to buy the battletome in-app to unlock it forever.

However knowing GW they would change the edition yearly or something and make you buy it again.

Karol wrote:
I thought that the wierd stuff on GW dice was put there so you can more easily weight them to specific sides, or file them off to get same effect.

You and your community never cease to amaze me. That's not, and never has been, the reason for having symbols on dice. It's also worth noting that GW dice and most other dice made by large manufacturers aren't made with anywhere near enough precision to allow you to weight them effectively without it being really obvious.

As for FFG's propensity for special dice, it's matched only by their love of cardboard tokens. Tokens everywhere! It's one of the more annoying things about their games, for sure.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 782348 10626265 wrote:

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

unless you want lucky dice for tournaments, then you have to spend a lot of money to get same looking moded dice, that you can only tell the difference by touch. They cost a lot too. almost 2,50$ per dice.

Karol, idiots being willing to buy special dice (if those dice really do give you an advantage they're weighted dice and are CHEATING) is entire;y differant from proparitory dice. I'm talking dice that replace the numbers with sopecial symbols in odd patterns to force you to buy a dice pack from the company for your game. something FFG LOVES to do with their RPGs.

Dice are not really that big a deal, considering they give both a free app and the book has full conversion rules for any dice for at least one of those games. And offers a very fun and interesting mechanic, that without those dice would still need a conversion table anyway to pull off.
Considering how many dice GW games can use I still think my Star Wars ones where cheaper.

Rules subscription is a horrid idea.

A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

 Galef wrote:
A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

Basically, my suggestion is that the digital copy would update FOR FREE, like a subscription, but not require actually subscription. So you pay for either the physical book (which comes with a digital copy, just like a BluRay or DVD) or just buy the digital copy by itself (presumably for around half the cost of the physical book). Either way you get the digital copy and that copy can be updated for FREE everytime there is an FAQ, Errata or CA points change

No need for a subscription because buying the digital copy is basically a "lifetime" subscription.

-

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They can look into an army before buying into it. That’s how you get around buyer’s remorse. You take the time to make an informed decision, checking forums like this, Wahapedia, 4chan for pirated stuff is even possible. There is no excuse to not be informed about 40K books.

What if subscription let your see all the rules, for a 1/6/12 months, but to see the points costs you would have to buy them separatly for each unit?

the way you buy supplements for sportsmen.

 Apple Peel wrote:

They can look into an army before buying into it. That’s how you get around buyer’s remorse. You take the time to make an informed decision, checking forums like this, Wahapedia, 4chan for pirated stuff is even possible. There is no excuse to not be informed about 40K books.

There's a whole lot of people out there naive to those websites. Pirating will certainly increase as displeasure grows. Oddly, it's never been easier to get a digital copy of a codex - I wonder how many lamenting PA1 bought it...

I suppose research and avoiding snap purchases is the only true remedy, but it still seems like people technically forced (not truly forced) to buy a book where they don't use 90% of the content could cause feelings of ill will.

This would be a much more interesting idea if GW didn't release rules every couple of months that leave me in a state of 'why the feth do I play this game?'

I'd end up cancelling my sub once or twice a year at least.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
This would be a much more interesting idea if GW didn't release rules every couple of months that leave me in a state of 'why the feth do I play this game?'

I'd end up cancelling my sub once or twice a year at least.

But then you'd have a more measurable impact on the bottom line.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They are obviously making a killing out of their black library books and short stories, do we really need second-rate fluff out of campaign books?

A campaign books should enable you to play fun campaigns, but GW has never actually done that.
Their scenarios are always so narrow that half the time you can't play it with your collection, or you need terrain that costs as much as the GDP of a small country. On top of that, most scenarios are just standard game + gimmik that might or might not work or the scenario is so one-sided that someone just gets trashed. Try playing the Sabotage narrative mission against harlequins - and make sure you have something planned for the rest of the hour.

Something me and multiple people I've talked to are longing for is a campaign that works like those campaigns in the first DoW game - any army can participate, you have a map you can conquer with fun scenarios and some basic missions, with a last stand mission and some victory fluff to read for every faction. Bonus points for unique faction leaders that you can convert but are not available for matched play. Optionally, release miniatures for them and add them to their codices.

New rules should just be updated to the e-codices. There is zero reason to not just add them to corresponding sections of the codex.

Release a novel or ebook telling you how marines won anyways along with it, so people wo want the fluff of that conflict can get it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They are obviously making a killing out of their black library books and short stories, do we really need second-rate fluff out of campaign books?

A campaign books should enable you to play fun campaigns, but GW has never actually done that.
Their scenarios are always so narrow that half the time you can't play it with your collection, or you need terrain that costs as much as the GDP of a small country. On top of that, most scenarios are just standard game + gimmik that might or might not work or the scenario is so one-sided that someone just gets trashed. Try playing the Sabotage narrative mission against harlequins - and make sure you have something planned for the rest of the hour.

Something me and multiple people I've talked to are longing for is a campaign that works like those campaigns in the first DoW game - any army can participate, you have a map you can conquer with fun scenarios and some basic missions, with a last stand mission and some victory fluff to read for every faction. Bonus points for unique faction leaders that you can convert but are not available for matched play. Optionally, release miniatures for them and add them to their codices.

New rules should just be updated to the e-codices. There is zero reason to not just add them to corresponding sections of the codex.

Release a novel or ebook telling you how marines won anyways along with it, so people wo want the fluff of that conflict can get it.

You make some good points though I feel like your perspective on the fluff stuff leans into the competitive edge too much? I haven't played those mission types for a decade so I can't say otherwise.

You're onto something though. I do recall the campaign they hosted on their website a few years ago. That was quite cool. So, if I read it right - just kill these psuedo-campaign books, release PDFs for rules, and models where applicable?

Warmahordes’ War Room App costs $12 CAD per faction, providing updated rules for the life of the Edition. With an army builder app built in.

This includes access to an in-app PDF version of the main rules. In terms of value, I have never had better.

I would consider a *maximum* of $5 CAD per month, as a subscription.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For a rules subscription service with GW that offers access to digital copies of all released content that is updated regularly (CA, Codexes, Campaigns, etc).

I feel like the only way out of the mess of buyer's remorse is for GW to create a subscription service. Something that allows them to produce fluffy content without needing to couple it to rules hooks to get more buyers.

If you cancel you lose access to all documents.

Errata and FAQs remain free.

The only way out of buyer's remorse is to give GW - who we know produce terrible rules - money IN ADVANCE for unspecified content?!

Yeah, that's going to be a hard no from me.

I'd pay probably $10-15 over the price of the codex if it gave access to digital rules solution (army builder I can play out of) that was updated with changes in FAQs and the like. This includes things like the Vigilus formations and such. That's already dramatically more than I pay for other games, but if that's what it takes for GW to do the job right... sure.

I pay 100 bucks a year for a PS4 network subscription. I'd pay that or maybe even a little more for updated 40k rules every year.

OFC the issue here is it would actually cost GW money. It's the reason we will never have it. GW makes most it's money selling rules and mini games.

Codex/Novels/Box games like silver tower.

If you buy 3 codex a year you are already over that 100 dollar mark...Most players buy 3 codex easily. This also includes things like campaign supplements.

 Galef wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

 Galef wrote:
A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

Basically, my suggestion is that the digital copy would update FOR FREE, like a subscription, but not require actually subscription. So you pay for either the physical book (which comes with a digital copy, just like a BluRay or DVD) or just buy the digital copy by itself (presumably for around half the cost of the physical book). Either way you get the digital copy and that copy can be updated for FREE everytime there is an FAQ, Errata or CA points change

No need for a subscription because buying the digital copy is basically a "lifetime" subscription.

-

yeah, as I said a LOT of gaming companies already do this, a lot of the time you only get it if you order direct from them however. but you get the PDF the MINUTE you order the book. if GW offered an option to allow us to pre-order a codex direct from them and get a free set of digital rules when you complete the purchase I suspect you'd see most people happily ordering their books direct from GW, even if it meant yes, sacrificing the 20% discount

No subcription. I want to own the rules and not be limited by gw telling me what to play. Now good ebook i could buy and buy occasionally but android ones suck in finding stuff quickly and not paying apple tax for hardware.

tneva82 wrote:
No subcription. I want to own the rules and not be limited by gw telling me what to play. Now good ebook i could buy and buy occasionally but android ones suck in finding stuff quickly and not paying apple tax for hardware.

thats another reason why I'd be skeptical about any push to completely go digital. GW's got a hard core apple fetish that I do NOT share.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

Simple. Playtest and proofread. There’d be a lot less buyer’s remorse if the books aren’t being invalidated every few months.

Slipspace wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

But you do have to buy 3 Predators. You still need the models to play 40k, the difference is that a system like X-Wing also gives you the rules when you buy the model and doesn't charge you extra for the rules on the side. It's not a perfect system by any means, but given the cost difference between 40k and X-Wing, focussing on how FFG rip you off while GW don't is an interesting take on things. Sure, you can use old models in new editions but FFG provided pretty good value with the conversion kits for 2nd edition X-Wing - each one cheaper than getting the new 40k rulebook and a Codex.

As far as the OP goes, I'd be unwilling to pay for a subscription for rules at all, at least from GW. I think charging for rules in general is quite an outdated concept now and GW seem to have some of the worst rules in terms of quality and balance. Other companies provide rules for free and update them as required, all while maintaining better balance than GW can manage. There's also the problem that there are so many factions in 40k now I might not see any return on my subscription money in a given year. It's quite possible 12 months could pass without a single model or rules update for any of my factions.

I'm sorry I gotta call this out, the conversion kits were not " Good Value " for X wing. If you only bought one small force, maybe they were an ok value. I loved x wing 1st edition. I had a very large collection. I would have needed like 2 empire conversion kits, at least. 1 or 2 for Scum and about the same for Rebels because my collection was so full. As well now I'd need a new conversion kit for the huge ships that are coming out. Thats over 200$ USD, depending on if I could find it cheaper, all to keep using models I'd already picked up that cost a pretty penny, and the new stuff would still come with further upgrades for the same models that you'd want to have to keep up so re buying some parts of the whole force, again. That isn't at all reasonable or good value in my opinion.

When GW re tooled the game, I needed like 60$ for the soft cover indexes and didn't miss a beat in playing with all of my models. So yeah, GW is awful, but FFG did you no favors with their reasonable upgrade kits and it's why I dropped that game, because i once supported FFG, but not now, the burn was way too real. GW actually handled the game system reset worlds better than FFG did, imo.

Galef wrote:Rules subscription is a horrid idea.

A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

I am in full agreement here. Codex comes with digital code, you get both a hard copy and a digital that will update with errata, points cost changes, etc. It is the best of both worlds. I'd even consider paying an extra couple dollars for the book if they do that.

Daedalus81 wrote:For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

The thing with a subscription service is they have to actually give you content to make it worthwhile. Just having it be for faqs and rules stuff would be a complete waste of money - they would NEED to offer more. Things like monthly mission packs, downloads for "fun things" like printable terrain and posters (you know, print it out, cut along the lines and tape it type stuff), and Black Library books. If you come with a monthly/yearly fee, you have to make it worth it to the consumer.

For example, I subscribe to the Humble Monthly Bundle, because for 120/130 dollars a year, I get close to 100 games, many of which are high quality things that I am interested in and also own (I guess technically license) forever (or until steam dies and I frantically try to download everything I have there onto a spare drive).

Even at 5 dollars a month, GW would NEED to add more to the pot than regular rules updates, and at the very least keep past edition books up on a legacy listing. After all, someone paying up now, once 9th hits - if it slots into a blank slate that would be trash. Plus, keeping the legacy rules up would attract people who still play older editions, especially if they dug up the faqs and such from way back in the day.

Long story short, in order to make a digital subscription worthwhile to the customer (and avoid the buyers remorse of "why did I pay for this?"), GW would have to keep things interesting for the people using it to make it worth its money.

So, like, pay 10 bucks and I get EVERYTHING (All Codexes, Chapter Approved, PA, etc)? It's honestly not a bad deal (it's basically what a Imperial Soup player would pay, or less), but I agree they'd need to add something on a monthly basis to keep people. Maybe access to Black Library novels? Bump it up to 20 bucks and send subscribers a monthly sprue for the "model of the month"? It'd definitely need to be more than just the rules and such.

Of course, my mindset is that the rules should be free anyway, as a way to increase model sales. But that's just me.

Karol wrote:
What if subscription let your see all the rules, for a 1/6/12 months, but to see the points costs you would have to buy them separatly for each unit?

the way you buy supplements for sportsmen.

How about NO.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You make some good points though I feel like your perspective on the fluff stuff leans into the competitive edge too much? I haven't played those mission types for a decade so I can't say otherwise.

The mission is actually quite fun usually, in the first part of the mission you can silently assassinate some dedicated guards (additional troops models from the defending army) to get into position. Once a guard ends his turn within "view" of an infiltrator or a gunshot is fired, the entire defending army comes on and the real game starts. However, Harlequins are extremely fast and have a low chance of not killing guards in combat, so they can just shred all the guards with no trouble, get their target and then be out of there before anyone notices. Very fluffy, but zero fun.

You're onto something though. I do recall the campaign they hosted on their website a few years ago. That was quite cool. So, if I read it right - just kill these psuedo-campaign books, release PDFs for rules, and models where applicable?

Pretty much yes, preferably just add them to a living codex, like someone above suggested.
For example, the whole eldar thing should just be new versions of their respective codices available for download from BL for everyone who has any version of the codex, with the pages added in.
They did that for some books in 7th, I see no reason not to continue doing that.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They are obviously making a killing out of their black library books and short stories, do we really need second-rate fluff out of campaign books?

A campaign books should enable you to play fun campaigns, but GW has never actually done that.
Their scenarios are always so narrow that half the time you can't play it with your collection, or you need terrain that costs as much as the GDP of a small country. On top of that, most scenarios are just standard game + gimmik that might or might not work or the scenario is so one-sided that someone just gets trashed. Try playing the Sabotage narrative mission against harlequins - and make sure you have something planned for the rest of the hour.

Something me and multiple people I've talked to are longing for is a campaign that works like those campaigns in the first DoW game - any army can participate, you have a map you can conquer with fun scenarios and some basic missions, with a last stand mission and some victory fluff to read for every faction. Bonus points for unique faction leaders that you can convert but are not available for matched play. Optionally, release miniatures for them and add them to their codices.

New rules should just be updated to the e-codices. There is zero reason to not just add them to corresponding sections of the codex.

Release a novel or ebook telling you how marines won anyways along with it, so people wo want the fluff of that conflict can get it.

Exactly this. The only reason people call the Vigilus stuff "campaign" books is because that's how GW refers to them. There's not actually much in there to enable you to run a proper campaign. Instead of doing these books based around a specific conflict I'd prefer GW to release a book about campaigns in general with rules for running various different types of campaign. And I do mean rules, not "suggestions". The problem with GW's recent campaign offerings is they tend to tell you about types of campaign - ladder, narrative, map-based, etc - but don't really provide any rules for running them. They don't even give you advice on how to deal with things like runaway leaders, or players who don't participate as much as others.

6th Edition WH had a pretty damn good campaign system in an appendix - it worked pretty well, was fairly balanced for all participants and didn't have the problem of runaway leaders or people falling hopelessly behind. It wasn't perfect by any means but it's notable that a set of tacked-on rules for a game 15 years ago were actually better than anything GW has produced for 40k campaigns since then.

Poll needs a $0 option.

Subscription models only work in environments where the service itself is the product - like Netflix (no subscription, no service). GW products do not meet this criteria as they do not provide a service, rather a physical product that the user does whatever they like with. With no physical book option there will only be one outcome - more piracy from there being no physical product available to buy and nothing at all stopping anyone from screen shotting every page of a rules source and distributing at will.

It wouldn't be that hard to build a better case for free rules via digital download rather than a subscription model.

There are too many "subscription" services already and now it's seeping into computer programs/sites. How long before you'll need a subscription to post on Dakka Dakka? (hopefully never lol)

I pay for Netflix and now Disney+ (The Mandalorian blows my mind so far), I patently refuse to "subscribe" to rules for a hobby. That would be a deal breaker for me and I'd drop 40K/GW cold turkey..

I know it would never happen (they'd lose too much revenue) but I would wholeheartedly go for GW providing digital codes with the purchase of a book.

Continuous development generates continuous cost.
Right now they are charging you once per book they sell you, which means they have zero incentive to continue development afterwards.
You pay up front in hopes of them not ruining the game with some codex half a year later.
If you spread the money you pay for codex+ca across one year, you end up with roughly $5 per month. When they feth up like they did with their original IH implementation, they immediately feel the pain and have an incentive to fix the problem.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
There are too many "subscription" services already and now it's seeping into computer programs/sites. How long before you'll need a subscription to post on Dakka Dakka? (hopefully never lol)

I pay for Netflix and now Disney+ (The Mandalorian blows my mind so far), I patently refuse to "subscribe" to rules for a hobby. That would be a deal breaker for me and I'd drop 40K/GW cold turkey..

I know it would never happen (they'd lose too much revenue) but I would wholeheartedly go for GW providing digital codes with the purchase of a book.

The cold reality is that many things will be SaaS / PaaS in the future. Even Windows itself. Games are already a service - look at Google and PS4. Email, Excel, Word - all a service. Anything that can be turned into a stream of revenue is far preferable businesses - especially when they don't have to produce a physical product, manage license keys, etc. You either have the service or you don't.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
There are too many "subscription" services already and now it's seeping into computer programs/sites. How long before you'll need a subscription to post on Dakka Dakka? (hopefully never lol)

I pay for Netflix and now Disney+ (The Mandalorian blows my mind so far), I patently refuse to "subscribe" to rules for a hobby. That would be a deal breaker for me and I'd drop 40K/GW cold turkey..

I know it would never happen (they'd lose too much revenue) but I would wholeheartedly go for GW providing digital codes with the purchase of a book.

The cold reality is that many things will be SaaS / PaaS in the future. Even Windows itself. Games are already a service - look at Google and PS4. Email, Excel, Word - all a service. Anything that can be turned into a stream of revenue is far preferable businesses - especially when they don't have to produce a physical product, manage license keys, etc. You either have the service or you don't.

All of those examples are digital services and are vastly different to a tabletop game, it would be like saying that as playing FIFA online requires subscription, real life football is now subscription based regardless of whether you already own a football.

GW will resist change as there is momentum behind paper rules (they currently bring in steady money), but if they continue to pursue rapid rules development this might eventually change due to the shortened viable product life of printed rules that are out of date a matter months after release (paper becomes less profitable due to increased wastage and increased customer fatigue to rules churn).

Just like with football, you don't need an active digital product to participate in a miniature game, so there would be zero incentive for customers to maintain a subscription when they could get the content, save a copy, then end the subscription (or just pirate it).

The more likely model digital rules would take is that of free to play games, where miniatures/paints/scenery/hobby tools form the microtransactions. For example, I am less likely to start a new army if I have a high initial investment with multiple books to buy, and subsequently replace. I am more likely to pick up a few start collecting boxes from other factions if the rules are free.

Insularum wrote:
Just like with football, you don't need an active digital product to participate in a miniature game, so there would be zero incentive for customers to maintain a subscription when they could get the content, save a copy, then end the subscription (or just pirate it).

The pirate argument isn't really one, as the subscription would change nothing about how easy it is to pirate ebooks.
There are models to prevent switching on-and-off subscribers, for example you could give a free year of updates(including "campaign" books and CA) with each codex you buy and then 5$/month afterwards. If you kill your subscription ASAP and they release something like SM 2.0, you'd have to shell out for the codex again, instead of just getting it as part of your subscription.

The more likely model digital rules would take is that of free to play games, where miniatures/paints/scenery/hobby tools form the microtransactions. For example, I am less likely to start a new army if I have a high initial investment with multiple books to buy, and subsequently replace. I am more likely to pick up a few start collecting boxes from other factions if the rules are free.

This would be the most preferable way to go for both customers and GW, but they are too old-fashioned for that.

I don't see a way GW can offer to charge me money to update a glorified PDF that is awful and awkward to search in person. They would have to bundle it with other services like an army builder that prints out the relevant up to date datasheets of the units I'm fielding in a easily and quickly readable fashion. Think battlescribe but official so you don't have to deal with *~battlescribe can be edited~* arguments. Make it free for all factions using PL and buying a codex gives you a code that unlocks strategems, point costs, etc. Additionally, most of those codes could probably be sold online via GW so things like CA could be $10 or something once a year to update all your point costs. Piracy is a service issue, make the service awesome and people will prefer it.

I buy digital only now, so maybe this would be exclusive to digital - not sure how you could do this sort of thing for physical copies.

Sell us a book, and provide updates as erratas, and FAQ updates as they come out to the actual book. I see point values updated in my codex as the CA books come out, so I know we can get updated copies. Let's take advantage of the platform!

How much is that worth? Well, the BRB is $60? If we are not spending that, then I say maybe $10-$15 a year if we are going to a sub model.

The question is, what do I get with the subscription service? Am I getting Chapter Approved, BRB, Codexes, and Supplements? Campaign books? That would be worth $20-30 before I tell you to get bent. If the cost is based per book? It better not be more than $1-$2 per book - PER YEAR.

I think the best way forward - again for digital - would be $1 per book I need/want access to. I'd pay a total of $4/year for access to my BRB, Codex, Chapter Approved, and possible supplement. Considering I paid $60 for the BRB, this would be a nice drop in price from the big purchases we current have to pay.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
There are too many "subscription" services already and now it's seeping into computer programs/sites. How long before you'll need a subscription to post on Dakka Dakka? (hopefully never lol)

I pay for Netflix and now Disney+ (The Mandalorian blows my mind so far), I patently refuse to "subscribe" to rules for a hobby. That would be a deal breaker for me and I'd drop 40K/GW cold turkey..

I know it would never happen (they'd lose too much revenue) but I would wholeheartedly go for GW providing digital codes with the purchase of a book.

The cold reality is that many things will be SaaS / PaaS in the future. Even Windows itself. Games are already a service - look at Google and PS4. Email, Excel, Word - all a service. Anything that can be turned into a stream of revenue is far preferable businesses - especially when they don't have to produce a physical product, manage license keys, etc. You either have the service or you don't.

Very very true. Entire industries are looking at moving to the cloud, and subscription services are easy to enact with that sort of platform. AWS is having a huge impact, and from a business perspective you want that monthly revenue stream over the bigger single purchase.

I do agree that the amount of subs a household ends up getting is starting to pile up. MS Office, Netflix, Hulu, Pandora, Amazon Prime, HBOGo, Disney+..... you used to be able to save some serious cash with "cutting the cord", but now you have to do it to break even!

Yeah, I'd pay 10 bucks a month if it meant access to updated rules for all 8th edition content.

Free updated digital rules would be another solution I'd go for (have the android reader issues been resolved?).

But looking at how much GW is charging for rules and pushing new supplements/codexes out there I don't think GW is going to go away from this revenue stream (they make money off the books right?).

No, all other miniature companies are going to free rules online that are always updated, you can buy books still if you want

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No, all other miniature companies are going to free rules online that are always updated, you can buy books still if you want

Something could be said for following the industry standard, if thats what it is going to.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No, all other miniature companies are going to free rules online that are always updated, you can buy books still if you want

Small companies with no huge overhead like brick and mortar and supply chains.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No, all other miniature companies are going to free rules online that are always updated, you can buy books still if you want

Small companies with no huge overhead like brick and mortar and supply chains.

Do you mean small companies cant give rules out for free? Have you seen the 100's of "Bobs basement army game, fully 3D printed Armies with free rules"? Most companies are not Brick and mortar anymore, they supply to those places like Fantasy Flight Games does.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No, all other miniature companies are going to free rules online that are always updated, you can buy books still if you want

Small companies with no huge overhead like brick and mortar and supply chains.

Do you mean small companies cant give rules out for free? Have you seen the 100's of "Bobs basement army game, fully 3D printed Armies with free rules"? Most companies are not Brick and mortar anymore, they supply to those places like Fantasy Flight Games does.

Hmm not sure I read your stuff properly.

I'm saying small companies can easily give out free rules, because they don't have large overhead like GW does.

A lot of people lament buying books from GW, but they'd take a good hit to revenue if they made all of that free.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No, all other miniature companies are going to free rules online that are always updated, you can buy books still if you want

Small companies with no huge overhead like brick and mortar and supply chains.

Do you mean small companies cant give rules out for free? Have you seen the 100's of "Bobs basement army game, fully 3D printed Armies with free rules"? Most companies are not Brick and mortar anymore, they supply to those places like Fantasy Flight Games does.

Hmm not sure I read your stuff properly.

I'm saying small companies can easily give out free rules, because they don't have large overhead like GW does.

A lot of people lament buying books from GW, but they'd take a good hit to revenue if they made all of that free.

lol ok... you know who fantasy flight games is right? B.c almost all their rules for their miniatures are free, and many also has app builders for them for free as well.

If you dont know who FFG is then you literally dont have any say in this. (Not you as in you, but as in anyone talking about this).

I would say no in the strongest possible terms. I want to own what I buy. A Subscription service these days is just "the right to use" not actual ownership. That's why Steam, GoG, EPIC, etc, all are so effective. They aren't selling anything that exists or is physical. They only sell you access to a product.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


lol ok... you know who fantasy flight games is right? B.c almost all their rules for their miniatures are free, and many also has app builders for them for free as well.

If you dont know who FFG is then you literally dont have any say in this. (Not you as in you, but as in anyone talking about this).

I'm very aware of FFG. It's kind of impossible to play a board game without the actual game and mountains of tokens, even if you have the rules. And the magical thing? The rules come with the game, so...

Do you have a figure on the number of brick and mortar stores FFG staffs?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would say no in the strongest possible terms. I want to own what I buy. A Subscription service these days is just "the right to use" not actual ownership. That's why Steam, GoG, EPIC, etc, all are so effective. They aren't selling anything that exists or is physical. They only sell you access to a product.

I mean, that's how a lot of things work. Renting an apartment. Leasing a car. Cab/bus/Uber fare. Cable T.V. Cell Phone plans. Etc.

To be honest, you probably spend more money on things you don't own than on things you do. And that's fine, as long as you're getting value for that money you're spending.

 flandarz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would say no in the strongest possible terms. I want to own what I buy. A Subscription service these days is just "the right to use" not actual ownership. That's why Steam, GoG, EPIC, etc, all are so effective. They aren't selling anything that exists or is physical. They only sell you access to a product.

I mean, that's how a lot of things work. Renting an apartment. Leasing a car. Cab/bus/Uber fare. Cable T.V. Cell Phone plans. Etc.

To be honest, you probably spend more money on things you don't own than on things you do. And that's fine, as long as you're getting value for that money you're spending.

You are not wrong in that, and thank you for pointing it out. But I don't have to lease, I can own. I don't have to rent, I can own. I don't have to lease a cell phone, I can own it.

All of those examples are me. It makes zero fiscal sense to rent/lease/subscribe when you can just pay once, and own. Every major book on wealth accumulation says to never give up money you don't have to. Case in point, buy a car in cash and you avoid paying the stupid doubling of fees for interest charges. Same with a phone, college debt, or a loan.

GW in this instance would be essentially betting on the laziness of their base, saying you would rather pay more money over time, than be forced to do the work of keeping up to date yourself. I am not saying anyone who advocates one way or the other is right, but my personal opinion.

I prefer to buy once, and own it. I hate giving money to people for intangible goods/services.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 flandarz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would say no in the strongest possible terms. I want to own what I buy. A Subscription service these days is just "the right to use" not actual ownership. That's why Steam, GoG, EPIC, etc, all are so effective. They aren't selling anything that exists or is physical. They only sell you access to a product.

I mean, that's how a lot of things work. Renting an apartment. Leasing a car. Cab/bus/Uber fare. Cable T.V. Cell Phone plans. Etc.

To be honest, you probably spend more money on things you don't own than on things you do. And that's fine, as long as you're getting value for that money you're spending.

You are not wrong in that, and thank you for pointing it out. But I don't have to lease, I can own. I don't have to rent, I can own. I don't have to lease a cell phone, I can own it.

All of those examples are me. It makes zero fiscal sense to rent/lease/subscribe when you can just pay once, and own. Every major book on wealth accumulation says to never give up money you don't have to. Case in point, buy a car in cash and you avoid paying the stupid doubling of fees for interest charges. Same with a phone, college debt, or a loan.

GW in this instance would be essentially betting on the laziness of their base, saying you would rather pay more money over time, than be forced to do the work of keeping up to date yourself. I am not saying anyone who advocates one way or the other is right, but my personal opinion.

I prefer to buy once, and own it. I hate giving money to people for intangible goods/services.

But what if "renting" gave you access to all the books at a cost that is far less than buying all those books, which expire 2 or 3 or 4 years down the road, as well as other benefits?

I used to value buying DVDs, but that gak is cumbersome and in 10 years the format will change and I'd have to buy a whole other set of movies I already owned. Getting movies digitally is just more sensible...and more green for the planet.

I get the feeling of ownership, but sometimes stuff is just...stuff. I'll thumb through my old codexes occasionally for a hit of nostalgia, but that's like a minute of time and my life doesn't really change other than needing to store more things.

They would never do it. It's too much of a barrier to entry when you're looking to generate new clients.

Yoyoyo wrote:
They would never do it. It's too much of a barrier to entry when you're looking to generate new clients.

Make a free and premium zone.

Still incredibly unlikely.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 flandarz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would say no in the strongest possible terms. I want to own what I buy. A Subscription service these days is just "the right to use" not actual ownership. That's why Steam, GoG, EPIC, etc, all are so effective. They aren't selling anything that exists or is physical. They only sell you access to a product.

I mean, that's how a lot of things work. Renting an apartment. Leasing a car. Cab/bus/Uber fare. Cable T.V. Cell Phone plans. Etc.

To be honest, you probably spend more money on things you don't own than on things you do. And that's fine, as long as you're getting value for that money you're spending.

You are not wrong in that, and thank you for pointing it out. But I don't have to lease, I can own. I don't have to rent, I can own. I don't have to lease a cell phone, I can own it.

All of those examples are me. It makes zero fiscal sense to rent/lease/subscribe when you can just pay once, and own. Every major book on wealth accumulation says to never give up money you don't have to. Case in point, buy a car in cash and you avoid paying the stupid doubling of fees for interest charges. Same with a phone, college debt, or a loan.

GW in this instance would be essentially betting on the laziness of their base, saying you would rather pay more money over time, than be forced to do the work of keeping up to date yourself. I am not saying anyone who advocates one way or the other is right, but my personal opinion.

I prefer to buy once, and own it. I hate giving money to people for intangible goods/services.

But what if "renting" gave you access to all the books at a cost that is far less than buying all those books, which expire 2 or 3 or 4 years down the road, as well as other benefits?

I used to value buying DVDs, but that gak is cumbersome and in 10 years the format will change and I'd have to buy a whole other set of movies I already owned. Getting movies digitally is just more sensible...and more green for the planet.

I get the feeling of ownership, but sometimes stuff is just...stuff. I'll thumb through my old codexes occasionally for a hit of nostalgia, but that's like a minute of time and my life doesn't really change other than needing to store more things.

I'm sure this subscription crap could save you money, but what if you don't want all these books ? You speak as if every players wants all the rules for every army and every release, I for one don't. I don't like the trend of these sub in services that end up draining you out with the slow bleed that at one point they claimed to be saving you money. I feel like all this is just going to end up costing us all so much more over time with the guise of it being cheaper at first, I don't like it and I doubt I ever will. It started as the cheap path and it's only growing more and more expensive till it becomes the hungry pig it claims it was saving us from. That's just my over all feeling on sub services. For GW, I'd never feel right giving them steady money for promises of good. They've done nothing to earn that level of trust, and if video games as a service has taught me, and should show everyone, they can't even deliver on the promises given. They just want more and more money, feed you dreams and deliver crap. So far live service games have had a less than great record some of them being so bad as to be considered running jokes in the industry.

Stuff is stuff, but I still want to own my stuff if I'm paying the same price regardless. I don't want one more thing I need to factor into my bills for a relaxing past time. I never have liked the idea, and never will of paying for something they can take away at any time at their desire and I have no recourse. All the companies may be trying to fleece people with this, and it may only be a matter of time before GW tries it but that'll be the day I say goodbye and get rid of most of my forces as I wouldn't pay them for dreams of service when they've shown they can't make proper rules for 30 years prior, I'd be a dip to trust them that it'll be " Good " now. Same as I won't pay for all these sub services just because its the path life must follow. Feeding the machine of greed will never end up well for the customer, not in the long run.

I do get not everything we can own, but in so far as I can, I want to limit my renting of things. I get too that we only live so long so all we get is rented but that's fine so long as its rented for the duration of my life or wish to own it.

I can respect that. I kinda agree that I don't really want to, say, build an army for every Faction, or read up on rules to understand the meta better, but I think it'd be nice to have access to all that lore they include in the books. I love me some fluff. But I'm still in the boat of "the rules should be free" anyway. Have the basic rules and the relevant data cards included with the models sold, and/or have some free PDFs with the rules and such on it. I can't think of a better way to drive model sales than to get people hooked on the game with some free rules.

 flandarz wrote:
I can respect that. I kinda agree that I don't really want to, say, build an army for every Faction, or read up on rules to understand the meta better, but I think it'd be nice to have access to all that lore they include in the books. I love me some fluff. But I'm still in the boat of "the rules should be free" anyway. Have the basic rules and the relevant data cards included with the models sold, and/or have some free PDFs with the rules and such on it. I can't think of a better way to drive model sales than to get people hooked on the game with some free rules.

The bare bones of the rules should be free, with deeper versions open for purchase. If people want the fluff, let them have it. If the fluff they wrote is good and the books are quality as they keep claiming, they'd sell themselves just fine if the rules were free. I just don't think they want to release actual quality and instead learned their lesson that the only way to make people grab it in the numbers they want is to have rules in it. They used to just put out campaign books that didn't have 40k rules for factions in them aside from the campaigns and I don't think they sold like they wanted. That is just my assumption based on the new book set ups.

Insularum wrote:
Poll needs a $0 option.

Subscription models only work in environments where the service itself is the product - like Netflix (no subscription, no service). GW products do not meet this criteria as they do not provide a service, rather a physical product that the user does whatever they like with. With no physical book option there will only be one outcome - more piracy from there being no physical product available to buy and nothing at all stopping anyone from screen shotting every page of a rules source and distributing at will.

It wouldn't be that hard to build a better case for free rules via digital download rather than a subscription model.

If GW wants to go really evil they can make app that has the subscription incorporate element that makes it impossible to play WITHOUT that you can't just screenshot.

(albeit it could be reverse engineered and made pirate app but that's more work than screen shot. And GW can change it periodically for added fun)

 Daedalus81 wrote:


But what if "renting" gave you access to all the books at a cost that is far less than buying all those books, which expire 2 or 3 or 4 years down the road, as well as other benefits?

Still better then being forced to pay for a bad set of rules on a monthly basis, just to be able to play. Plus as a bonus somehow the exchange rates for my currancy to something else look mighty wonky. No bank sells dollar here for 4.2zl, and most mobile apps do, plus then they often add taxs to it. And suddenly am paying more for the same rules then someone living in the US.
But probably biased. People hate renting here. After 10 years of renting you could have bought a flat with the same money. Uber go beaten by taxi mob, and then they passed laws to make it practically illegal here.

Make paper Codexes/Chapter Approved physical collectors items, with a voucher for a digital version which only contains rules included.

Hire a minimum wage intern to read though the reported issues and questions. Literally anyone off the street, they will be better than the people who wrote the codexes.

First of each month, release FAQs and emergency functionality errata on the digital version (i.e. no balance changes, just errata for the broken rules since GW doesn't proofread e.g. the Loot It errata) and release balance errata every 4 months. Chapter Approved will compile all the years errata and FAQ with additional bonus content.

This is seemingly what D&D is becoming. They are moving to a subscription based model where it forces everyone to pay in order to play, so they aren't loosing money to groups of players with one book. And I hate that. It's against what made D&D so successful.

Imagine Monopoly moving to a service where everyone has to own the game in order to play it.

That being said, there is always one, and only one solution to this, and it was succinctly stated by a peppy pink haired pirate.

"YOU ARE A PIRATE!"

Thank Slanesh that there are Russian hackers that upload quality PDFs and digital books.

There is also the option to move to a subscription system which does not have the primary goal of milking its customers.

Office 365, for example, is a very successful subscription system for both sides - many people can use the same software at home which they use at work/school for a lot less money that those boxes with CDs in them used to cost and Microsoft gets lots of money because more people pay for their office instead of pirating or substituting it.

If you find fair prices for the subscription and provide enough content for that money, people will buy it.
For example you could make cheap subscriptions for people just wanting the rules for one or two codices, let's say half of what an codex ebook costs per year to get that codex updated with FAQ, new rules and point adjustments from CA.
In addition, you can get something costing five times that to get all codices for a year.
Last but not least, for ten times the price of the basic subscription, you can get the Imperator's suscription where you get all the rules, a digital copy of all white dwarfs, kill team, apocalypse, necromunda and a primaris sergeant.

Provide something for those who don't have a lot of money.
Provide something for those who have too much money.
And most importantly: Don't try to rip off your customers.

I would pay if it came with an official GW army builder app that updated with the rules changes, had FAQ's and Errata's built in and an easy to use spreadsheet of individual character stats, weapon stats, strategems and psychic powers.

You could even have a "game mode" where you and your opponents upload your lists to each other and it kept track of game turn, sub phases, casualties, wound markers, stat changes. You could see each others open lists.

It could also have a "BatRep" mode where you could create your own batreps and take photos, add captions etc.

I would subscribe to that

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 flandarz wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would say no in the strongest possible terms. I want to own what I buy. A Subscription service these days is just "the right to use" not actual ownership. That's why Steam, GoG, EPIC, etc, all are so effective. They aren't selling anything that exists or is physical. They only sell you access to a product.

I mean, that's how a lot of things work. Renting an apartment. Leasing a car. Cab/bus/Uber fare. Cable T.V. Cell Phone plans. Etc.

To be honest, you probably spend more money on things you don't own than on things you do. And that's fine, as long as you're getting value for that money you're spending.

You are not wrong in that, and thank you for pointing it out. But I don't have to lease, I can own. I don't have to rent, I can own. I don't have to lease a cell phone, I can own it.

All of those examples are me. It makes zero fiscal sense to rent/lease/subscribe when you can just pay once, and own. Every major book on wealth accumulation says to never give up money you don't have to. Case in point, buy a car in cash and you avoid paying the stupid doubling of fees for interest charges. Same with a phone, college debt, or a loan.

GW in this instance would be essentially betting on the laziness of their base, saying you would rather pay more money over time, than be forced to do the work of keeping up to date yourself. I am not saying anyone who advocates one way or the other is right, but my personal opinion.

I prefer to buy once, and own it. I hate giving money to people for intangible goods/services.

But what if "renting" gave you access to all the books at a cost that is far less than buying all those books, which expire 2 or 3 or 4 years down the road, as well as other benefits?

I used to value buying DVDs, but that gak is cumbersome and in 10 years the format will change and I'd have to buy a whole other set of movies I already owned. Getting movies digitally is just more sensible...and more green for the planet.

I get the feeling of ownership, but sometimes stuff is just...stuff. I'll thumb through my old codexes occasionally for a hit of nostalgia, but that's like a minute of time and my life doesn't really change other than needing to store more things.

Great point. Personally, this is why I am going digital as much as I can. I'm that guy who bought a ton of movies from Blockbuster before they went out of business, and used to buy up a ton of movies on Black Friday from the stores... its nice to have all the movies you want, but Netflix and online services replace that. My wife can watch 10 seasons of her favorite TV show endlessly and we pay... $200-ish a year? Thats what.... 8 movies? We get FAR more than 8 movies with just one subscription service.

I agree with buying and owning for larger purchases, however on a smaller scale its not as cut and dry. Again, it comes down to what we would get for the subscription model. Am I getting access to ALL of the content that comes out? We spend at least $40 a year for CA right? Well, if I spent say $60 a year ($5/mo) for all access, then that is actually less money out of pocket per year. We wouldn't need to worry about the cost of a new edition, because we just get the new updated stuff.... and plus there aren't those old previous edition books on the bookshelf that just collect dust.

Its going to come down to price and content.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I would pay if it came with an official GW army builder app that updated with the rules changes, had FAQ's and Errata's built in and an easy to use spreadsheet of individual character stats, weapon stats, strategems and psychic powers.

You could even have a "game mode" where you and your opponents upload your lists to each other and it kept track of game turn, sub phases, casualties, wound markers, stat changes. You could see each others open lists.

It could also have a "BatRep" mode where you could create your own batreps and take photos, add captions etc.

I would subscribe to that

Basically, they just need to make a 40k app like they have for AOS, which includes an army builder in it - in concept at least. I don't subscribe to that, but I use the app for my digital AOS books.

Having the option to rent is, I feel, good for a certain portion of the customer base and I think GW is far behind the times in not having some sort of online tool to view content and most especially have some sort of army builder software.

At the same time, I generally prefer something I can keep forever. For the last few years I have migrating my physical game books to electronic versions, but they are generally PDFs so I can continue to access them even if the company goes under or moves on to a new rule system.

And, of course, I use BattleScribe to put together army lists for use in 40K and other games.

Embarrassingly poor comprehension from some folks here. And very narrow minded views from some other. Nice to see the place hasn't changed much, though we did somehow wander back around to the actual topic.

First: digital versions of any books should be included with their physical counterparts. That it's 2019 and this still isn't a default is silly on so many levels. Not just talking about GW here.

Second: I use Battlescribe, but it's not the most elegant format and does miss... Maybe 3 pages of actual rules content from a Codex. Stratagems and Objectives are all I can think of off the top of my head. I've bought 6 codices and Vigilus Ablaze but there are definitely more factions I've used Battlescribe to plan out builds for.

I do sometimes read the fluff in a Codex, but maybe not all of it. Especially when it's blatant copy pasta from a dozen other sources. I'm more inclined towards that when it's something new to me. Being an old player/collector, there are a lot of things I'd love to read up on regarding some armies. The model showcase parts of the Codex are often interesting for the 3 or 4 minis they show that aren't in their box art/webstore colours.

Let's say I've spent £50 on rules a year. We'll be generous to my wallet and ignore all Index books and any supplemental stuff in White Dwarf. A tenner a month sounds expensive next to that, but I'm sure I'd feel like I'd be getting enough out of it with all the rules and fluff, along with the CA stuff like extra missions and what have you. Even better if there are, let's say, Quarterly campaign supplements added alongside. Automatically updating for FAQS and new units would icing on the cake.

I feel like a subscription based model, with pulped dead trees available still for people who need them, would be great for me, and for GW. I'd have access to all the rules and background I could want, without having to carry a dozen books around with me for a soup army and still having to refer to online resources to check things, and with my access to these, I may be tempted by other armies and so buy even more models and paints.

There are also a huge number of ways they could keep people hooked on their subscriptions, by adding a new mission each month (removed from CA and spread over the year rather than all at once, or tied into a WD battle report, live-stream or whatever) newly updated datasheets for individual units or characters one at a time, thus not needing to make every release themed. If they ever get over their fear of people customising and kitbashing they could even release special datasheets for these things very easily. Without being tied into a months in advance print schedule they could easily drop surprise updates for special events too. And the idea of gaming and bat-rep integration is a fun one as well. Hell, if they did tie in list building, and battle records, they could use the data for their ongoing balancing, basically having us pay to play test their games, as well as using it for market research into the kind of rules and models that more people like using.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is also the option to move to a subscription system which does not have the primary goal of milking its customers.

Office 365, for example, is a very successful subscription system for both sides - many people can use the same software at home which they use at work/school for a lot less money that those boxes with CDs in them used to cost and Microsoft gets lots of money because more people pay for their office instead of pirating or substituting it.

If you find fair prices for the subscription and provide enough content for that money, people will buy it.
For example you could make cheap subscriptions for people just wanting the rules for one or two codices, let's say half of what an codex ebook costs per year to get that codex updated with FAQ, new rules and point adjustments from CA.
In addition, you can get something costing five times that to get all codices for a year.
Last but not least, for ten times the price of the basic subscription, you can get the Imperator's suscription where you get all the rules, a digital copy of all white dwarfs, kill team, apocalypse, necromunda and a primaris sergeant.

Provide something for those who don't have a lot of money.
Provide something for those who have too much money.
And most importantly: Don't try to rip off your customers.

It always amazes me when people come out to bat for multi-million dollar companies like their old friends from HS. GW is a company created to make money. Just like EA, Bioware, Konami, Blizzard, Microsoft, and Google. All of them are free to pursue the goal of making money and being successful. But stop trying to say crap like "GW does it for the customers, they aren't in it for the money".

Not picking on you, just piggy backing.

No one is going to bat for GW. It's recognizing the realities of what a business would be willing to do when you mess with a major source of revenue.

I think a better model is somewhere in between: you buy and own the rules, but GW updates them for free (sort of like how the digital codexes work now). The format/layout just needs to change, and a printable summary needs to be part of it.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I think a better model is somewhere in between: you buy and own the rules, but GW updates them for free (sort of like how the digital codexes work now). The format/layout just needs to change, and a printable summary needs to be part of it.

I imagine that would be the perfect solution. Like how when you buy a game through steam/gog, they update it and keep it updated for the life of the game/publisher rights. For instance I bought a 23 year old game off of GoG last night, and it worked perfectly on my home built 2019 Windows 10 computer.

If GW gave even the slightest crap about it's fans, it would offer free updates. But it doesn't. CA isn't free and neither is the new BRB. I would gladly spend the extra 60-70 bucks on models if GW would just comp me the rules.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is also the option to move to a subscription system which does not have the primary goal of milking its customers.

Office 365, for example, is a very successful subscription system for both sides - many people can use the same software at home which they use at work/school for a lot less money that those boxes with CDs in them used to cost and Microsoft gets lots of money because more people pay for their office instead of pirating or substituting it.

If you find fair prices for the subscription and provide enough content for that money, people will buy it.
For example you could make cheap subscriptions for people just wanting the rules for one or two codices, let's say half of what an codex ebook costs per year to get that codex updated with FAQ, new rules and point adjustments from CA.
In addition, you can get something costing five times that to get all codices for a year.
Last but not least, for ten times the price of the basic subscription, you can get the Imperator's suscription where you get all the rules, a digital copy of all white dwarfs, kill team, apocalypse, necromunda and a primaris sergeant.

Provide something for those who don't have a lot of money.
Provide something for those who have too much money.
And most importantly: Don't try to rip off your customers.

It always amazes me when people come out to bat for multi-million dollar companies like their old friends from HS. GW is a company created to make money. Just like EA, Bioware, Konami, Blizzard, Microsoft, and Google. All of them are free to pursue the goal of making money and being successful. But stop trying to say crap like "GW does it for the customers, they aren't in it for the money".

Not picking on you, just piggy backing.

There is a difference between someone selling you a solid product for a fair price and some overcharging your for a flawed or low-quality product. When it comes to how GW is currently selling its rules, it's the later, though most likely not because of malice. I'm an IT guy, I know how hard it is to convince your bosses of this new internet stuff, even in 2019
I took Office 365 as an example because it is simply one of the most successful software subscriptions right now. Ten years ago, almost no private person actually bought Microsoft Office because it was very expensive and wasn't something you wanted to buy, but something you need to buy in order to do your work, homework, papers, etc.
It either came free with your PC, you pirated it or you were using a free open source alternative. Today, every other person has an Office 365 subscription and is quite happy with it, because they feel they are getting the right amount of product for the right amount of money.

40k rules are in pretty similar boat when you think about it, you don't actually want to buy them, but you kind of have to.

There is the issue about the rules just being a driver to sell models though, unlike Office which is the product itself. In my opinion, they should be free, but a fair subscription model would be an acceptable alternative for me.