Am I the only one that feels like certain xenos known for speed and agility are looking a bit sluggish these days?
Don't get me wrong. Some xenos are doing quite well as far as win rates, and non-xenos should certainly be allowed to have nice things, but...
* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
I'm really not opposed to marines having their shiny new toys or to frustrating mechanics being altered or removed, but aeldari (less so dark eldar) and tau do feel like they've lost some of the speed and agility they once had. Going "flatout" is basically a stratagem these days, and rarely worth the CP it would cost to use. "Jinking" is kind of a thing for aeldar, though it's an expensive strat that can only protect a single unit each phase. Hitting a skimmer in combat is now as easy as hitting a rhino. Jump Shoot Jump sort of kind of exists for aeldari and tau, but again, it's an expensive strat, and only being able to use it on a single unit means you're just choosing which units to sacrifice rather than feeling like you're controlling an agile army.
Am I the only one that feels this way? And if not, what sort of mechanics might bring bang the "feel" of mobility to these armies without bringing back the much hated rules of yesteryear?
In the vaccum vs space marines, yes its frustrating. But I think if you look at the overall game aside from the currently absurd poster boys, I think they're still considered really damn mobile.
Elder are still super mobile and even with Tau losing JSJ they are still very mobile for the most part(Stormsurge and broadsides excluded) the cold star commander can basically fly wherever it pleases and blast things on a 2+.
The Eldar bikes have a 16” movement which is pretty good & they fly, they can also advance and fire anything but heavy weapons as if they were stationary, they also get a 6” auto advance so they have effectively a 22” movement.
I think it might just be design choice of 8th to allow every Faction some choices in how they build an army. So, traditionally "slow" armies can field some quicker units, or armies that were CC centric have some shooting options. So, for the armies that were/are centered around a certain theme, it can seem like they're less "unique" than they were before.
Or, in other words, it's probably just perspective. The "fast" armies are still fast, but the inclusion of fast units in other Factions can make them seem less so.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
fraser1191 wrote: I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.
at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some of these upset Xenos players are just trolling
My DE, Quins, CWE, and sold off Tyranids all feel very fast, everyone of those 4 armies can get to you turn 1, can move easily multi units 25-40" a turn.
fraser1191 wrote: I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.
at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some of these upset Xenos players are just trolling
Venoms, Starweaver, etc.. also move 16", base with a 6" advancement without rolling, Flawed Skull gets +3" for 19", Quins can advance, shoot, and charge for 22" movement base.
Sure, walking they only move 8" but... thats walking that should be slow lol.
Then you have units in nids (tho they are bad, but only b.c GW doesn't know how to balance them) Hive Crones and Harpies move 30'', they can literally turn 1 charge with 6 MC's without any special stratagems/rules.
All of Aeldari has ways to double move or increase movements s well.
Wyldhunt wrote: Am I the only one that feels like certain xenos known for speed and agility are looking a bit sluggish these days?
Don't get me wrong. Some xenos are doing quite well as far as win rates, and non-xenos should certainly be allowed to have nice things, but...
* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
I'm really not opposed to marines having their shiny new toys or to frustrating mechanics being altered or removed, but aeldari (less so dark eldar) and tau do feel like they've lost some of the speed and agility they once had. Going "flatout" is basically a stratagem these days, and rarely worth the CP it would cost to use. "Jinking" is kind of a thing for aeldar, though it's an expensive strat that can only protect a single unit each phase. Hitting a skimmer in combat is now as easy as hitting a rhino. Jump Shoot Jump sort of kind of exists for aeldari and tau, but again, it's an expensive strat, and only being able to use it on a single unit means you're just choosing which units to sacrifice rather than feeling like you're controlling an agile army.
Am I the only one that feels this way? And if not, what sort of mechanics might bring bang the "feel" of mobility to these armies without bringing back the much hated rules of yesteryear?
No, not compared to armies other than Iron Hands.
And it's not really pure speed that's relevant, it's how you can use it and how much of your army is that fast.
Almost all armies have fast units as skirmishers and scouts, but not all armies have main battle tanks tanks that are move 14" and treat heavy weapons as Assault.
Wyldhunt wrote: Am I the only one that feels like certain xenos known for speed and agility are looking a bit sluggish these days?
Don't get me wrong. Some xenos are doing quite well as far as win rates, and non-xenos should certainly be allowed to have nice things, but...
* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
I'm really not opposed to marines having their shiny new toys or to frustrating mechanics being altered or removed, but aeldari (less so dark eldar) and tau do feel like they've lost some of the speed and agility they once had. Going "flatout" is basically a stratagem these days, and rarely worth the CP it would cost to use. "Jinking" is kind of a thing for aeldar, though it's an expensive strat that can only protect a single unit each phase. Hitting a skimmer in combat is now as easy as hitting a rhino. Jump Shoot Jump sort of kind of exists for aeldari and tau, but again, it's an expensive strat, and only being able to use it on a single unit means you're just choosing which units to sacrifice rather than feeling like you're controlling an agile army.
Am I the only one that feels this way? And if not, what sort of mechanics might bring bang the "feel" of mobility to these armies without bringing back the much hated rules of yesteryear?
No, not compared to armies other than Iron Hands.
And it's not really pure speed that's relevant, it's how you can use it and how much of your army is that fast.
Almost all armies have fast units as skirmishers and scouts, but not all armies have main battle tanks tanks that are move 14" and treat heavy weapons as Assault.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
That's the comparison I had in mind, yes. And yes, the wave serpent is the stronger unit (as it should be given that it costs half again as much). But my concern is for their relative mobility. Sure, the serpent has an extra 2" of movement, but 2" isn't enough to make the serpent feel significantly faster than the impulsor, and the impulsor's ability to disembark troops after moving arguably makes it even better at delivering short-ranged weapon teams than the serpent. (Craftworlders that don't flub an advance roll move a very comparable distance to units that get out of a moving impulsor, but again, the xenos feel like they're basically just breaking even on speed/mobility. Also, minor mostly irrelevant nitpick, but the serpent can't take two twin shuriken catapults. Just the one. )
I quite like the impulsor as a unit. I think it serves marines well, and it's interesting to choose between its main upgrades. I don't begrudge marines having it. It just feels like the boost in mobility some armies (including marines) got this edition has left the supposed mobility of other armies looking a bit lacklustre.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
That's fair. Again, you've succesfully read my mind as I was mostly referring to Iron Hands. But still, when some rather popular subfactions of marines can ignore the to-hit penalties of heavy weapons while falcons and hammerheads can't, it feels odd.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Yeah. I'm not sure what exactly I'd give aeldari to make up for the hole left by initiative, but its absence is felt. Again, it's not so much that aeldari as a whole are doing poorly in melee, but this is another area where our superhuman speed was once represented and now isn't. A couple extra inches of movement really doesn't make up for no longer swinging first. Especially the turn after I launch my own charge and am thus exposed to any counter charges.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
My mistake. I really though RG and/or WS had the ability to move after shooting as a strat. Again, I wouldn't begrudge marines for having access to something like this. It would be perfectly fluffy and reasonably powerful. But if they did have it, it would be another area where the gap that should exist between the mobility of certain xenos and imperials should exist but kind of doesn't.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
I'm not sure, but the 2" difference between marine bikers and craftworld bikers is probably too little. It's not necessarily that I want to do one of the ridiculous, long-ranged turbo boosts of previous editions (they were arguably bad for the game as it made it too easy to jump on objectives without being near them at the start of the turn). However, knowing that I could do that in previous editions made me go, "Okay, yeah. Eldar vehicles that hit the gas really are faster than rhinos." Now, a serpent or devilfish at top speed is only slowly pulling ahead of a chimera doing the same.
fraser1191 wrote: I mean if we'll go down this route DE bikes move 18" and auto advance 8" for 26" move. That's a significant amount of scooting in my opinion.
at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some of these upset Xenos players are just trolling
Admittedly, dark eldar actually feel pretty significantly mobile compared to imperials. Reavers at top speed actually noticably outpace marine bikers, and the ability to shoot out of their speedy transports means your army as a whole actually feels quite mobile. Serpents and devilfish not so much, however, as their passengers can neither shoot out of the transport nor disembark after it moves.
If devilfish could drop off breachers after moving, or if a falcon could move and shoot without penalty, I don't think I'd have the concerns that I do.
Almost everyone wants better Transports. But, back to the topic, all the speedy folks are still speedy. I really don't know what else to say. 2" more movement is a pretty significant increase on a board that's only 48"x72"
flandarz wrote: Almost everyone wants better Transports. But, back to the topic, all the speedy folks are still speedy. I really don't know what else to say. 2" more movement is a pretty significant increase on a board that's only 48"x72"
It really depends on how you can use that speed, rather than the speed itself. when i play other games, i really notice 1 or 2 inch speed increases. I feel this may be more a design issue, With the simple systems making it harder to design around speeds as much as they probably should be.
It also does not help that transports themselves are kinda meh, with the game not really having as much use for them as i think it should.
This would also have the side effect of using that space better, as not all units would start on the table as often if they did design around it a bit better
regarding the wave serpant vs impulsor, it's worth stressing the impulsor is the Primaris LIGHT transport, while the wave serpant is a full fledged transport.
I don't know. Advancing 40" with my Coldstar Commander and then shooting feels pretty fast.
I always love to use the "Nothing personal kid" before vaporizing my enemy.
What we're seeing is yet another example of 8th edition running off the rails. Movement speeds and options are generally all too fast/mobile across the board, IMO. Combined with generally very long weapons ranges, tables feel much, much smaller now and the overall increase in speed has left traditionally mobile armies with much less room to show off that extra mobility. So now a unit might be 1-2" faster but that doesn't mean as much when you're talking about movements speeds of 14" or more.
Frankly i find it absurd that the change to disembarkation, in order to cut back on the alpha strike shenanigans from 7th, is once again ignored by a faction, just because.
Not Online!!! wrote: Frankly i find it absurd that the change to disembarkation, in order to cut back on the alpha strike shenanigans from 7th, is once again ignored by a faction, just because.
The Primaris rhino costs nearly 1€ for 1point thats why.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."
Not Online!!! wrote: Frankly i find it absurd that the change to disembarkation, in order to cut back on the alpha strike shenanigans from 7th, is once again ignored by a faction, just because.
The Primaris rhino costs nearly 1€ for 1point thats why.
Yeah, and people wonder why 3rd party alternatives get more popular or people in search of a better balanced game leave here.
Also Money = Pts value for units is slowed however consideirng that the suits do intervene indeed to sell stuff, i am not surprised, i do hope however that it get's the nerfbat
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor? let's directly compare the two shall we? Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches. Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs. Advantage: Wave Serpant Defences: Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield. Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield. Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash. Offensive Punch: The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save. The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3) and 2twin shurken catapults. Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant. Transport Capacity: Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis. Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2) Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."
Yeah, the points cost does matter, but IMO the Impulsor is actually very cheap.... Harlequins Starweaver is 99pts, sure its open top and have -1 and a 4++, its also 1/2 the wounds and less toughness with units that are just as costly (20pts with a weapon) for a 1 wound T3 with a 4+ save, unless its a melee weapon its only Str 3 no AP, so what its 4 attacks, str 3 no AP, no bonus to hit or to wound isnt good, sure you can have Fusion, but its just melta pistols, still not that worth wild when everything now has a 4++ at least vs shooting, cool you hit 3x, got 2 wounds, and 1 failed save for 1D6 damage... thats really good for 199pts..... Its not like other armies can have a 60" shooting unit for less than 200pts do more than D6 damage.. OH WAIT THEY CAN.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."
except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.
I will say that as a tau player, the Custodes jetbikes were a nasty surprise the first time that I played against them. To be fair though, I had a Coldstar in my list too.
carldooley wrote: I will say that as a tau player, the Custodes jetbikes were a nasty surprise the first time that I played against them. To be fair though, I had a Coldstar in my list too.
I i9magine the custodes where a nasty suprise for the Tau in setting when they finally encountered some.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."
except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.
Well considering that to answer a post about mobility their whole abilities had to be compared to be able to say "serpent wins", the point costs might have been added here too. But anyway, the post forgot about marines battle tanks when they are a big part of the issue since they ignore penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons. Sure they cost a lot. But it's all about capabilities you know
To answer the OP, while I don't think Eldars are that slow, they certainly feel slower than in previous editions between having to disembark at the start of the movement phase, having -1 to hit with your "fast" weapons platforms (tanks, jetbikes, etc) and not being able to zip to the other side of the board in one turn. But it's basically the result of the new edition.
And I agree, having a faction that have tools to ignore these penalties (and infiltrate/deep strike a lot) doesn't help feeling like you're playing the "fast" faction either but that's the downside of having your book towards the start of the edition, other factions get new toys and you get a mostly irrelevant rule like battle focus. Maybe if the codexes get updated at some point, the speedy feeling will be back (I doubt it though).
Slipspace wrote: So now a unit might be 1-2" faster but that doesn't mean as much when you're talking about movements speeds of 14" or more.
I think this is a key point.
In Warmachine, for example, movement speeds range from 4-9" (with most units sitting at or around 6").
The key point is that because there's such a small range of movement you really feel the difference, even if it's just 1-2". A unit with M7" feels a great deal faster than a unit with M5".
However, in 40k, movement ranges from 4" to about 72". hence, when a "fast" infantry model moves 7 or 8" instead of 6", the difference is laughable small.
Anyway, as for Xenos feeling fast, I think it depends what you compare. Take Dark Eldar. They have transorts that are (for the most part) faster than Marine transports. They also have faster bikers.
However, once you get past the fast transports and bikers, DE really don't have much else. Dark Eldar HQs are M7-8", but since they have 0 mobility options they're easily outpaced by M12 Jump Pack HQs or M14 Biker HQs.
De likewise have 0 Elite choices with mobility options, 0 Troop choices with mobility options (outside of one guy who's basically just a mandatory attachment for Beast units) and their only fast Heavy Support choice is a vehicle.
Also, they have nothing resembling Battle Focus or Rising Crescendo so they can't shoot or charge after Advancing. And unlike certain Marines, they also have nothing that allows them to shoot after disembarking.
Anyway, in my experience, Dark Eldar feel fast only for as long as they're embarked. Once they disembark or their vehicles get destroyed, they don't feel any faster than other races, and frequently feel a good deal slower.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
I adore that you left out the point cost differential between these two units. Best analysis, much unbiased, comparing a 139pt unit to a 79pt unit and going "Look, it's basically the same defensively, moves slightly faster (but can't drop troops after moving) has better firepower and transports twice as many models only costs 75% more Marines are fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine marines are baaaaaaaaaaaaaalanced."
except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.
No dawg, things in this game have point costs for a reason, the question is ALWAYS capabilities for the cost.
Given that the impulsor is criminally cheap and seems to uniquely be able to do the job of transport vehicle (actually getting troop bodies down on the board onto objectives faster than walking/advancing them there) it's pretty freakin goofy to point out that a vehicle that costs nearly twice as much is *slightly* better at offense and slightly faster. End of the day, a wave serpent moves 2" faster, has basically identical defenses, and gets 2 extra heavy bolters for 60 points.
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Mr Morden wrote: Doesn't everything move slowly compared to Imperial Guard - which is of course sooo bizare.
Yeah, currently the most mobile foot infantry in the game is Imperial Guardsmen and the most mobile mechanized infantry in the game is a space marine.
Suck it, speed freeks, genestealers, dark eldar, harlequins, emperor's children, craftworld eldar - Imperium Rules NPCs Sux!
iGuy91 wrote: Trust me. My Necrons are slow as dirt.
Which is your fault alone. Necrons can be plenty fast.
Thanks. Helpful feedback.
Our flying units (destroyers, scarabs) max out at 10 inches of movement if they want to contribute to combat, which is worse than most other faction's flying units (usually 12 inches). Slow.
Tomb Blades are tolerable at 14 inch movement for a jetbike, but no stratagems to advance and shoot without penalties, meaning you lose firepower if you do so.
Wraiths can be fast with the advance and charge strat, but again, thats with a strat, and unless you're running Nephrekh, is not a viable strategy to rely on. Meh.
Transports? What Transports?
Our Ghost Arks Border on unusable. Only able to fit minimum sized squads of our worse troop choice in them, or characters, and nothing else inside them due to transport capacity. They're not open topped. They cost 145 points. Only t6. Only 4+ armor, but have quantum shielding, and a middling amount of firepower.
Night Scythes are also over priced at 135 points. Laughably pitiful firepower. Can't disembark turn 1 from them. Everything inside them dies automatically unless you burn CP. Useless.
Monolith? Don't make me laugh. Can't disembark from it until turn 3 if the thing deep strikes. Costs almost the same as a knight galant, and is worse in every possible way. Has a great 6 inch move.
A couple niche teleportation things help mask the problem, but Necrons are slow as all hell when compared to everything else with a blanket 5 inch movement.
Deceiver Move? - Can't charge after.
Veil - 9 inch requirement. Space Marines can make that 12 inches.
Zandrehk/Oby combo? - Can get you close, unless you're playing vs primaris, or someone who doesn't screen. Both characters are expensive as sin, and lackluster.
You look at the state of this game currently and it's like
"So, which faction has the ability to deploy in hidden positions at the start of the game, setting up guaranteed turn 1 charges?"
"Genestealer Cult?"
"nope, Space Marines."
"who's got a fast, flying HQ with an aura that grants +2" to charge distance, improving the odds of charging out of deep strike by 30%?"
"Gotta be Dark Eldar or Harlequins"
"nope, Space Marines."
"Who's got the flying transport that moves 14", has an anti-charge aura ability, and drops off models after it moves."
"Sounds like a Tau thing. Maybe CWE."
"nope, Space Marines."
"Who's got the chapter tactic that's army-wide charge after advance or fall back, and then has a stratagem that gives them free melee attacks at a falling back enemy?"
"Definitely drukhari or Tyranids, right?"
"nope, space marines."
GW has dedicated enough design space to the damn marines at this point that they've been basically handed every conceivable army identity, and everyone else feels like a pale imitation of what marines can do. GSC? Ha, OUR infiltrators show up turn 1, AND they stop other people from deep striking within 12", so if you play your faction against us you can't do gak. Drukhari? Nice Advance and Charge trait nerd, mine lets me fall back and charge too AND my bikers ignore the penalty for advancing with assault weapons - bet you wish your Reavers and Hellions did that! Oh, you're making a little gunline with your Tau? Pfff, cute 30" rapid fire 1 pulse rifles, my imp fist intercessors get 2 shots at 30" range, an extra 2 AP and ignore cover. Playing a fast hovertank list with your Ulthwe eldar? Bet you wish your 6++ trait also gave you Heavy weapons that ignore moving and shooting, get a bonus -1AP, and reroll 1s to hit, haha!
the_scotsman wrote: You look at the state of this game currently and it's like
"So, which faction has the ability to deploy in hidden positions at the start of the game, setting up guaranteed turn 1 charges?"
"Genestealer Cult?"
"nope, Space Marines."
"who's got a fast, flying HQ with an aura that grants +2" to charge distance, improving the odds of charging out of deep strike by 30%?"
"Gotta be Dark Eldar or Harlequins"
"nope, Space Marines."
"Who's got the flying transport that moves 14", has an anti-charge aura ability, and drops off models after it moves."
"Sounds like a Tau thing. Maybe CWE."
"nope, Space Marines."
"Who's got the chapter tactic that's army-wide charge after advance or fall back, and then has a stratagem that gives them free melee attacks at a falling back enemy?"
"Definitely drukhari or Tyranids, right?"
"nope, space marines."
GW has dedicated enough design space to the damn marines at this point that they've been basically handed every conceivable army identity, and everyone else feels like a pale imitation of what marines can do. GSC? Ha, OUR infiltrators show up turn 1, AND they stop other people from deep striking within 12", so if you play your faction against us you can't do gak. Drukhari? Nice Advance and Charge trait nerd, mine lets me fall back and charge too AND my bikers ignore the penalty for advancing with assault weapons - bet you wish your Reavers and Hellions did that! Oh, you're making a little gunline with your Tau? Pfff, cute 30" rapid fire 1 pulse rifles, my imp fist intercessors get 2 shots at 30" range, an extra 2 AP and ignore cover. Playing a fast hovertank list with your Ulthwe eldar? Bet you wish your 6++ trait also gave you Heavy weapons that ignore moving and shooting, get a bonus -1AP, and reroll 1s to hit, haha!
This is an issue, yes. I say that as a Space Marine player.
except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.
Capabilies are linked to cost. Can't say does something shoot well or not without factoring cost. Otherwise you could say "6w and only d3 shots? Mek gun sucks! Stompa has t8 w40 and lot more guns!"
Only looking at stats without factoring cost is dishonest
except the question wasn't points cost but capabilities.
Capabilies are linked to cost. Can't say does something shoot well or not without factoring cost. Otherwise you could say "6w and only d3 shots? Mek gun sucks! Stompa has t8 w40 and lot more guns!"
Only looking at stats without factoring cost is dishonest
Besides, Repulsors. Marines win either per-point or per-model here.
The Invictor is a Rhino-esque transport. It's foil is more the Raider than the Serpent. The Serpent is a full-fledged battletank. Probably the only tank in the game with a 5-star crash rating, and it pays points for that (whether it pays too much/too little could be debated, but it clearly pays). Primaris have Repulsors, if you want a tank with transport capacity. One of CWE's historical and conceptual weaknesses was that it's never had a light transport (which was great for the game until 8th made it irrelevant). Eldar lives are too valuable.
As for transport cap, it's hard to argue Guardians or most Aspect Warriors (especially those that can take transports) are in the same league, body-for-body, as Primaris. 6 Primaris slots are worth about 12 no-primaris slots as far as transport cap is concerned. So the Serpent doesn't really have an edge their, either.
CWE rules seem mostly fine, but its "fun" to take my superfast Banshees, then see them get outran/outcharged by Marines. Or my Dire Avengers and see them outmaneuvered by Marines. Or my Fire Dragons and see them outshot by Marines. Or Serpents and see them out-survived by Marines. Because codex creep.
Yes. Our superfast MEQ-priced glass cannon melee units (Banshees) are 2" faster on the charge than White Scar's equivelents, with slightly more killiness than them against some targets! Because we're so fast.
And our Fire Dragons have a transport that moves a whole 2" more, and only pays a couple times more in points - with the only other drawback being they need to sit in their transport for an extra turn while their Marine counterparts are blasting.
And then there's the T2 deepstrikes we can use to show off how great we are at outplanning, outmaneuvering, and outflanking. Our super stealthy and super well planned ambushes can engage T2, whereas Marines have to wait until T1 to deepstrike.
Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.
Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...
I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).
Xenomancers wrote: Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.
Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull.
I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).
Sure, lets not. CWE jetbikes can typically charge nearly as far as White Scar bikes!
Yes, most armies feel extremely slow when I play against them. Battlefocus + Assault weapons does the trick. Many armies are just gunlines and fall into gunline archetype, while I have to move my ass and attack and maneuvre around the table. Which is a lot more fun than just standing in the corner rolling dice.
I still find it odd that Wave Serpent is faster than a Raider.
And then Phoenix Rising gave us important stuff which was missing: ability to stack +charge on dice.
Xenomancers wrote: Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.
Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...
I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).
Yeah, DE and CWE do not feel too slow to me. I play both. They feel too fast, but so does everything else about 8th edition 40k.
The specific thing that bugs me is that it seems like every fancy thing that every army (really, not just Xenos stuff, even other marines still stuck in old codexes or chaos marines) had, nu-marines now get to do but one tick better.
Sure, DE jetbikes can advance and charge basically guaranteed turn 1. White Scars bikers can do the exact same thing, AND fall back and charge when you don't kill what you charged and they opt to keep you stuck, AND move and shoot heavy/advance and shoot assault weapons.
At the end of the day, from a top level competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter that a guardsman can Move Move Move and leave a genestealer/Howling Banshee/jump pack space marine in the dust. It's just one of those things that makes you facepalm at the way this game was translated to the tabletop. And that's what I'm getting at here. Neither a white scars bike assault army nor a drukhari bike assault army is ever going to scratch some competitive iron hands/imp fists gunline bs at a competitive event. But they were so blatantly designed with different standards that it's still kind of irritating.
Nah, there's a relic that gives you +1 to advance and +1 to charge rolls within 6", and they have a 1CP strat to roll 3d6 and take the two highest for their charge roll.
I assume since we're talking about the Eldar advancing and charging (which is a stratagem one unit can use) we're taking that kind of extra stuff into account for the WS as well.
Xenomancers wrote: Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.
Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...
I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).
Yeah, DE and CWE do not feel too slow to me. I play both. They feel too fast, but so does everything else about 8th edition 40k.
The specific thing that bugs me is that it seems like every fancy thing that every army (really, not just Xenos stuff, even other marines still stuck in old codexes or chaos marines) had, nu-marines now get to do but one tick better.
Sure, DE jetbikes can advance and charge basically guaranteed turn 1. White Scars bikers can do the exact same thing, AND fall back and charge when you don't kill what you charged and they opt to keep you stuck, AND move and shoot heavy/advance and shoot assault weapons.
At the end of the day, from a top level competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter that a guardsman can Move Move Move and leave a genestealer/Howling Banshee/jump pack space marine in the dust. It's just one of those things that makes you facepalm at the way this game was translated to the tabletop. And that's what I'm getting at here. Neither a white scars bike assault army nor a drukhari bike assault army is ever going to scratch some competitive iron hands/imp fists gunline bs at a competitive event. But they were so blatantly designed with different standards that it's still kind of irritating.
I should clarify my complaint. CWE felt too fast. DE felt fast enough (and should be faster than CWE). My version of the complaint isn't that CWE are too slow (in fact, I think they're too fast). It's that Marines are too fast. Marines shouldn't be faster than CWE. They should be nowhere close to being as fast as DE.
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards. * Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau. * Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate. * Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts. * Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
*Marines have had Land Speeders and Land Speeder Storms for quite a while, giving them a Fast Skimmer isn't outrageous. Giving the Impulsor the Assault Vehicle ability was a failure in both rules naming because it doesn't allow the unit to assault and rules writing because several other vehicles in the game probably deserve that ability as well from a thematic standpoint (all Drukhari vehicles, most Ork vehicles, Land Raiders probably also). *I don't find it problematic that SM have a Chapter that ignores the movement penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons, Sautekh Necrons can do the same. If Craftworlds don't have a Trait that allows them to do this then that's too bad, I'm not familiar with everything they got or didn't get in PA1, it could have been a buff to Saim-Hann since it's currently very narrow in scope. *Aeldari got +1 M, Necrons and Orks got -1 M I don't know how important Initiative was to Aeldar, my feeling is not very much because 7th didn't encourage melee outside of even more niche units and tactics than in 8th, Movement is a pretty important stat for both ranged and melee units. Move! Move! Move! being as OP as it is does undercut the mobility of Aeldar. *Jump-shoot-jump has been replaced with falling back and shooting, a generally pretty powerful benefit, especially in an edition where you can charge in any direction as long as one model makes it to within 1" of a unit you charged and then you can pile into the closest enemy model instead of just ganging up in a clump around whatever you charged. *Advance distances should be adjusted for a lot of units IMO, adding +1 to Advance rolls for each point of Movement you have over 9" would IMO be fair enough. So M18 jetbikes Advance 18"+18"-9"+D6", it creates problems with various abilities and buffs that allow units that aren't pointed for it to charge after advancing.
*Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!
*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.
*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!
Xenomancers wrote: Lets not try to underplay jetbikes. Agile planes. Plus upgrades like star engines. I wouldn't say mobility is the issue.
Heck DE jetbikes can be incredibly fast 24" auto advance and can charge for after with their cult trait. Venoms move 21 inch naturally as flayed skull. Not to mention...quicken...
I agree the infantry should have more speed. An extra inch of movement isn't much. Also keep in mind though. In this game a gardsmen has the same move stat as a custodian (who in reality should probably be 2/3 times faster).
Yeah, DE and CWE do not feel too slow to me. I play both. They feel too fast, but so does everything else about 8th edition 40k.
The specific thing that bugs me is that it seems like every fancy thing that every army (really, not just Xenos stuff, even other marines still stuck in old codexes or chaos marines) had, nu-marines now get to do but one tick better.
Sure, DE jetbikes can advance and charge basically guaranteed turn 1. White Scars bikers can do the exact same thing, AND fall back and charge when you don't kill what you charged and they opt to keep you stuck, AND move and shoot heavy/advance and shoot assault weapons.
At the end of the day, from a top level competitive standpoint, it doesn't matter that a guardsman can Move Move Move and leave a genestealer/Howling Banshee/jump pack space marine in the dust. It's just one of those things that makes you facepalm at the way this game was translated to the tabletop. And that's what I'm getting at here. Neither a white scars bike assault army nor a drukhari bike assault army is ever going to scratch some competitive iron hands/imp fists gunline bs at a competitive event. But they were so blatantly designed with different standards that it's still kind of irritating.
I should clarify my complaint. CWE felt too fast. DE felt fast enough (and should be faster than CWE). My version of the complaint isn't that CWE are too slow (in fact, I think they're too fast). It's that Marines are too fast. Marines shouldn't be faster than CWE. They should be nowhere close to being as fast as DE.
That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
Marines should be faster than gaurdsmen but they aren't. LOL. If you read the fluff a space marine should be about the same speed as a gardian. They aren't some standard inferior mon keigh. Also a jetbike should probably be about 100 times faster than an infantry - not 3 times. This game gets a lot wrong. When 8th was first coming out my friends and I were getting really excited.
I was excited that marines might finaly get a move stat of 7 or something. Nope. They basically changed none of the stats...Just AP.
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Bharring wrote: *Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!
*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.
*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!
I'm really bias as I don't like the white scars...Or special snow flake chapters for that matter. I find it hard to believe any chapters marines could really outperform another marine at the same task so hard. Marines in general are masters of all arts of war. To have such discrepancy between chapters is immersion breaking. I agree - the white scars are too fast. They should have the same speed as ultramarines bikers which is 14" - white scars should just have more bikes in their army. Like bikes should be troops for them...wouldn't that be so much better than the garbage rules we have now?
Shadenuat wrote: Yes, most armies feel extremely slow when I play against them. Battlefocus + Assault weapons does the trick. Many armies are just gunlines and fall into gunline archetype, while I have to move my ass and attack and maneuvre around the table. Which is a lot more fun than just standing in the corner rolling dice.
I still find it odd that Wave Serpent is faster than a Raider.
And then Phoenix Rising gave us important stuff which was missing: ability to stack +charge on dice.
Yeah I kinda feel like too many people take battle focus for granted.
Bharring wrote: *Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!
*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.
*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!
I'm really bias as I don't like the white scars...Or special snow flake chapters for that matter. I find it hard to believe any chapters marines could really outperform another marine at the same task so hard. Marines in general are masters of all arts of war. To have such discrepancy between chapters is immersion breaking. I agree - the white scars are too fast. They should have the same speed as ultramarines bikers which is 14" - white scars should just have more bikes in their army. Like bikes should be troops for them...wouldn't that be so much better than the garbage rules we have now?
This is my primary gripe. White Scars should be better than UltraMarines at biking by about the same margin that a Marine who's seen a couple decades of combat experience should be better than a novice at firing a bolter. Better, but not enough for a rules difference.
*Expecially* for Marines.
Some chapters are more likely to deploy more bikers than others. But UM, RG, and WS Marines are all just about as good at shooting, chopping, sneaking, or biking. The difference should be in the units taken and strategies pursued, not in the unit rules themselves.
Shadenuat wrote: Yes, most armies feel extremely slow when I play against them. Battlefocus + Assault weapons does the trick. Many armies are just gunlines and fall into gunline archetype, while I have to move my ass and attack and maneuvre around the table. Which is a lot more fun than just standing in the corner rolling dice.
I still find it odd that Wave Serpent is faster than a Raider.
And then Phoenix Rising gave us important stuff which was missing: ability to stack +charge on dice.
Yeah I kinda feel like too many people take battle focus for granted.
It's easy to forget about Battle Focus balancing things out when it doesn't, though. Guys piling out of an Invictus are still much faster than Aspect Warriors Battle Focus-ing forward out of a Serpent.
So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?
fraser1191 wrote: So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?
I don't quite know if this is a mad burn or not.
I mean yeah, if 8.5 Edition Marines is the new bar, then a lot of things need points reductions.
Really though I think a lot of just want a new codex with faction supplements that give us the same design space used for Marines. So yes, we can equally be good at X, and Y and Z.
fraser1191 wrote: So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?
So those who wanted less bloat and special-casing in the fix for Marines should STFU about all the bloat and special casing for Marines?
fraser1191 wrote: So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?
So those who wanted less bloat and special-casing in the fix for Marines should STFU about all the bloat and special casing for Marines?
It's more or less an observation and statement that none of us have any control over GWs decisions. 40k is wildly unbalanced its been like this since the start of the edition. I figured we'd all be used to this by now
Bharring wrote: *Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!
*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.
*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!
*If you're talking about Iron Hands or their successors why are you saying Marines?
*No, just Iron Hands. I'd prefer it be expressed only through Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics but I don't see a problem with select Marine chapters being more adept at mechanised mobile warfare than Eldar are in general. If Eldar don't have options for expressing such an army then that's a flaw in the design of Craftworlds not Marines wouldn't you say?
*Why do you say Marines when you mean White Scars? Saim-Hann can re-roll failed charge rolls and have a Stratagem for advancing and charging, White Scars having a Stratagem, WL trait and/or psychic power that improves the mobility of their bikes above the level of Iyanden Shining Spears is in no way problematic to me. I'd prefer it if nobody had Chapter Tactics or Super Doctrines and army theme instead had to be expressed through only getting to pick a very limited number of Stratagems from a shared pool, that would still allow for certain Marine lists to go faster than certain Craftworld lists if the Craftworld list was unwilling to take the same mobility-boosting options.
I fundamentally disagree that all Marine lists should be the same or that every Marine should have the same options as every other Marine, on the other hand I don't think the colour of your army should decide anything but your Relics and I don't think free rules are fair or the skewed access to Stratagems is fair and some armies still having no Chapter Tactics is wildly unfair.
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fraser1191 wrote: So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?
It's legit for some factions, I can think of a bazillion units whose rules are fine but just need pts adjustments. Problems with rules should come not from a balance standpoint but from a gameplay design or thematic standpoint. With the exception of WL traits and Relics, you have easy levers to balance Stratagems and units by simply lowering their cost. Some Marine units really did just need a pts reduction, Tacticals and Assault Marines I'd argue really did need Beta Bolters and Shock Assault, I don't think Combat Doctrines was really necessary and the army could have still become mid-top tier if they nerfed the right things in CA19. One unit in particular I'd love to just get a pts reduction is Warriors, 9 pts would let me bring a 60 of them for 120 pts cheaper, that'd be huge and make them so much more viable.
Bharring wrote: *Marines have had Land Speeders for quite some time. Giving them `Vyper-but-better" rules makes sense! After all, Marines do the Vyper thing, and they're Marines, so better!
*Marines are the kings of moving-and-firing. Some of their chapters are so perfect at combat that their graceful Razrobacks and Land Raiders can fire perfectly on the move. Unlike the clunky rustbuckets like Falcon Cloudhunters (as in the tank that used to dogfight aircraft) or Vypers. And Marines themselves are so graceful and perfect at their craft, compared to the awkward Aspect Warriors.
*Marines aren't as fast as Eldar, because Eldar got +1M to replace their strike-first and move-shoot-move. A fair trade, so now Marines need things like "Charge after Advance" and "Bail out and Shoot" to compete with those +1"/+2"M units! Because stock White Scars bikes should be faster than Saim-Hann jetbikers on the charge, obviously!
*If you're talking about Iron Hands or their successors why are you saying Marines?
*No, just Iron Hands. I'd prefer it be expressed only through Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics but I don't see a problem with select Marine chapters being more adept at mechanised mobile warfare than Eldar are in general. If Eldar don't have options for expressing such an army then that's a flaw in the design of Craftworlds not Marines wouldn't you say?
*Why do you say Marines when you mean White Scars? Saim-Hann can re-roll failed charge rolls and have a Stratagem for advancing and charging, White Scars having a Stratagem, WL trait and/or psychic power that improves the mobility of their bikes above the level of Iyanden Shining Spears is in no way problematic to me. I'd prefer it if nobody had Chapter Tactics or Super Doctrines and army theme instead had to be expressed through only getting to pick a very limited number of Stratagems from a shared pool, that would still allow for certain Marine lists to go faster than certain Craftworld lists if the Craftworld list was unwilling to take the same mobility-boosting options.
I fundamentally disagree that all Marine lists should be the same or that every Marine should have the same options as every other Marine, on the other hand I don't think the colour of your army should decide anything but your Relics and I don't think free rules are fair or the skewed access to Stratagems is fair and some armies still having no Chapter Tactics is wildly unfair.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fraser1191 wrote: So since marines are good now, and people are complaining that their units aren't good anymore can marine players tell them they just need a points reduction? Or is that in poor taste?
It's legit for some factions, I can think of a bazillion units whose rules are fine but just need pts adjustments. Problems with rules should come not from a balance standpoint but from a gameplay design or thematic standpoint. With the exception of WL traits and Relics, you have easy levers to balance Stratagems and units by simply lowering their cost. Some Marine units really did just need a pts reduction, Tacticals and Assault Marines I'd argue really did need Beta Bolters and Shock Assault, I don't think Combat Doctrines was really necessary and the army could have still become mid-top tier if they nerfed the right things in CA19. One unit in particular I'd love to just get a pts reduction is Warriors, 9 pts would let me bring a 60 of them for 120 pts cheaper, that'd be huge and make them so much more viable.
even if you think marines should be the same they aren't and it's pretty silly to say that "Marines can do X and they can do Y" when a more accurate statement would be "Mariens can do X OR they can do Y"
I dunno, my Evil Sunz speed Freek buggies and bikes don't feel slow. Particularly when I use a kult of speed strat to give a unit double move, or when I move - shoot - move.
What they are is weak. The army is wiped by turn 2 or 3. So I suppose I pay for my speed.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I dunno, my Evil Sunz speed Freek buggies and bikes don't feel slow. Particularly when I use a kult of speed strat to give a unit double move, or when I move - shoot - move.
What they are is weak. The army is wiped by turn 2 or 3. So I suppose I pay for my speed.
No, its that 8th ed boosted core damage by 300-400% but didnt boost core defense, that why no one took tac marines for almost any reason.
Bharring wrote: That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.
At this point, what shouldSM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?
* * *
Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.
Bharring wrote: That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.
At this point, what shouldSM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?
* * *
Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.
it's obvious man, Space Marines exist so that folks who are 40k veterns and know the real score can have easy games vs new scrubs who are playing with their stater box army!
Bharring wrote: That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.
At this point, what shouldSM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?
* * *
Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.
SM has always been the jack of all, a bit of better survivability with a better stat line and armor, then mix of assault and heavy weapons, better at shooting but with less shooting (more impactful, easy to hit guns) etc..
But 8th through all that out the window, now the MEQ stat is pointless, and bolters are not good anymore, where Lascannons used to be worth a damn, now if its not 3+ shots with mid ap and 2-3 damage its pointless, or if its not LOTS of str 5 wwith -1ap.
Bharring wrote: That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.
At this point, what shouldSM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?
* * *
Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.
Considering the Space Marine concept overall, marines should have the best mass deep strike with drop pods, be a "Jack of all trades but master of none" vis a vis melee/shooting/heavy weapons, and have highly armored medium infantry.
in an ideal world, other factions in the game could get something that they're the best at. currently, marines are the best at everything except for the things they literally have no models for, like light infantry and monstrous characters. There's only so many times I can watch an unpainted intercessor/repulsor gunline list pop a squat on some other army and sweep them off the table before I think this is going to kill any faction diversity in my playerbase.
Bharring wrote: That's the "poor design" complaint. Marines were given Everything+1. They shouldn't be faster than DE. Or more Fighty than Orkz. Or more inevitible than Crons. Or more dakka than T'au. Or more perfectly-executed than CWE.
"I can do everything better than you" is not a healthy design choice.
Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.
Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider... But I might be overstating Marines.
At this point, what shouldSM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?
At out-Marine-ing. Which means outshooting Orkz, outchopping Tau, outmanuvering Necrons, outtrading DE, and outadapting CWE. Beating opponents by not playing on their terms.
Look at the Tac Marine. In theory, better melee stats than any shooty unit. Better firepower than any choppy unit. Ork boys ear their firepower. Tau face power armored fists to the face. Kab poison doesn't bring them down fast enough. Necron Warriors can't move fast enough. Access to cheap, effective transportation, or heavy reliable transportation. Can kit some for better anti- horde, elite, or vehicles. Melee and guns.
That's what Marines should be best at.
I'm glad Marines are strong. I'm not glad about how they did it.
Dysartes wrote: Can't be faster than DE, can't be better in CC than Orks, can't outshoot Tau - not quite sure what you're aiming at with the Necron or Eldar comparisons.
At this point, what shouldSM be good at (or even the best at) in your view?
As the saying goes, jack of all trades, master of none. They're supposed to be competent at everything with, at most, high survivability as their defining characteristic.
What I'd like to see is for Space Marines' experience and training to be their strong point, represented via C&C-oriented skills, making them more responsive and better able to react than an unwieldy force like the Guard. They should feel like a small, elite force that may not be able to win a straight-up fight against their more numerous or specialized adversaries, but have the operational flexibility to engage on terms that favor them.
Epic did that well, but I don't think 40K currently has the mechanics to model that, so they basically have to be just well-rounded at shooting, mobility, and durability. Being the jack of all trades and also, selectively, the master of whichever they want, feels wrong.
Bharring wrote: Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.
I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?
Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.
Bharring wrote: Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.
I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?
Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.
In a game with 24" no-man's land a flying vehicle with a 14" move (that can, given the right subfaction, be a 17" move) is going to get within rapid fire range of frontline troops turn 1.
Also, hell, we now give spess mehrines full rapid fire out to 30" on their guns if they castle up and infiltrators that show up during deployment, so I guess we are A-OK with everyone being able to just bring their full power turn 1 in 8th edition 40k.
8th edition can pretty much be simulated by writing out a unit's rules on a card, setting them down on the board, and just rolling dice against the other players' units to remove them. The board and models are at this point unnecessary expenses.
Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.
Eldar base speed during 2nd was 5". Banshees had 6", but Guardians, Scorpions, Avengers etc had 5".
Tyranids were base 6" move. Gants, Stealers, Warriors were all 6.
Bharring wrote: Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.
I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?
Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.
In a game with 24" no-man's land a flying vehicle with a 14" move (that can, given the right subfaction, be a 17" move) is going to get within rapid fire range of frontline troops turn 1.
Also, hell, we now give spess mehrines full rapid fire out to 30" on their guns if they castle up and infiltrators that show up during deployment, so I guess we are A-OK with everyone being able to just bring their full power turn 1 in 8th edition 40k.
8th edition can pretty much be simulated by writing out a unit's rules on a card, setting them down on the board, and just rolling dice against the other players' units to remove them. The board and models are at this point unnecessary expenses.
I've said beford with all the stackable buffs, and strategems, spells relics and warlord traits, as well as charcter specific re roll bubbles it really is more of a collectable card game than a war game.
Too many models. Terrain is largely irrelevant. There is so much fire power that with out good invul saves you just pick up any model they can draw line of sight to, or any model they can charge.
I play fun elfs (in spaaaaace), I live by speed. I would prefer to have usable cover rules to more speed. You can only target if you have a clear view of the hull. A third or more obstructed -1 to hit. Crossing to pieces of terain -2 to hit. Sails, banners, prows and weapons can not be shot.
That would make it a game of manuver as opposed to a drage race. But a game like that would need fewer units on the board to finish a game.
* Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
* Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
* Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
* Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
* Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
*Marines have had Land Speeders and Land Speeder Storms for quite a while, giving them a Fast Skimmer isn't outrageous. Giving the Impulsor the Assault Vehicle ability was a failure in both rules naming because it doesn't allow the unit to assault and rules writing because several other vehicles in the game probably deserve that ability as well from a thematic standpoint (all Drukhari vehicles, most Ork vehicles, Land Raiders probably also).
It's one thing for marines to have a fast skimmer gunboat. But when their fast skimmer gunboats are actively better at being that than their eldar and tau counterparts (granted, mostly only as Iron Hands), it feels a bit awkward. Similarly, being able to drop off troops after moving isn't an innately problematic ability, but it does seem odd that only marines have it.
It feels odd that marines are, in some ways, more "agile" than armies who are noted for supposedly being more maneuverable than imperial forces (including marines). It also kind of feels like even speedy marines should maybe possibly be noticably slower on the whole than factions whose "thing" is being fast and maneuverable.
"Oh tau and eldar? Yeah, they're pretty fast. They're like... tanky gorilla man on a motorcycle levels of fast."
*I don't find it problematic that SM have a Chapter that ignores the movement penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons, Sautekh Necrons can do the same. If Craftworlds don't have a Trait that allows them to do this then that's too bad, I'm not familiar with everything they got or didn't get in PA1, it could have been a buff to Saim-Hann since it's currently very narrow in scope.
We don't have such a trait, and that's a shame. It would absolutely make sense for Saim-Hann (if not all craftworld vehicles) to ignore the heavy weapon penalty. But we don't have that, and marines do, and that feels weird. It's one thing for marines to have a single gimmicky rule that makes them feel surprisingly agile, but the number of things they can do that supposedly faster xenos can't is sort of adding up at the moment.
Though again, my concern isn't just about marines; there used to be a lot of rules that represented how fast skimmer tech was and how agile jet pack units were. Now, most of those differences are gone, and the imperium's (nearly as fast) skimmers are becoming more prevalent. Mobility was part of the identity of several xenos factions. By shrinking the gap in mobility, you reduce that identity.
*Aeldari got +1 M, Necrons and Orks got -1 M I don't know how important Initiative was to Aeldar, my feeling is not very much because 7th didn't encourage melee outside of even more niche units and tactics than in 8th, Movement is a pretty important stat for both ranged and melee units. Move! Move! Move! being as OP as it is does undercut the mobility of Aeldar.
Initiative was a surprisingly big deal. Generally speaking, eldar initiative meant that most of the eldar army got to take their swings in melee before the enemy had a chance to make their own attacks. So even something pretty bad in melee like a dire avenger had a chance at reducing the enemy numbers before they could swing back. If you got into combat with, say, 20 eldar models, then you had at least 20 attacks coming your way before you got to start doing damage of your own.
Now, this was far from perfect and very frustrating for low initiative armies, but it was a significant advantage that aeldari have lost and not really gotten a replacement for.
Movement is a big deal in 8th, but the amount of extra movement craftworlders have over others isn't actually all that great. Movement 7" compared to 6" , for instance, only matters on those rare occassions that I needed exactly 1 extra inch to get into range. Our jetbikes can battlefocus 22" forward and then shoot 12" guns for a total threat range of 34", but that's soured a bit by marine bikers having effective threat range with their equivalent weapon (twin bolters) of 38".
Basically, it feels like Movement was meant to be the substitute for Initiative, but the extra eldar speed isn't enough for it to actually feel like an advantage. Especially when so many of our guns are short-ranged enough to require you leave yourself painfully exposed after using that speed.
*Jump-shoot-jump has been replaced with falling back and shooting, a generally pretty powerful benefit, especially in an edition where you can charge in any direction as long as one model makes it to within 1" of a unit you charged and then you can pile into the closest enemy model instead of just ganging up in a clump around whatever you charged.
Falling back and shooting is very powerful, but I don't think it's accurate to say that it has replaced jump-shoot-jump. Many units that couldn't JSJcan fall back and shoot. Also, jumping away from a unit that has already charged you and smacked you around a bit has a very different "feel" from a rule that lets you avoid harm in the first place. Falling back with Fly lets you feel like you're good at making escapes. JSJ let you feel like you were being cagey and using the terrain to stay safe.
*Advance distances should be adjusted for a lot of units IMO, adding +1 to Advance rolls for each point of Movement you have over 9" would IMO be fair enough. So M18 jetbikes Advance 18"+18"-9"+D6", it creates problems with various abilities and buffs that allow units that aren't pointed for it to charge after advancing.
I'd be okay with something like this. You could probably simplify it by adding a "charge" stat both for simplicity and to make it easier to adjust more dials on a unit's abilities.
Marines are able to skim forward about as quickly as my wave serpents and then pop guys out to shoot afterwards.
I assume you're talking about the wave serpant compared to the impulsor?
let's directly compare the two shall we?
Impulsor Max Move speed: 14 inches.
Wave Serpant Max speed: 16 inchs.
Advantage: Wave Serpant
Defences:
Impulsor: 11 Wounds, 3+ armor T 7, Option for a 4++ shield.
Wave Serpant: 13 wounds, 3+ Armor, T7, Serpant sheild reduces damage by 1 dmg until it discharges the shield.
Advantage: I'm going to call this a wash TBH, both have their advantages and disavantages. the Wave Serpant's shield discharge IMHO is a bit better as once you dislodge the troops you can deal some serious damage to hard to hit things reliably. pretty useful. but I'm going to give the benny of the doubt and call it a wash.
Offensive Punch:
The Impulsor packs... 2 storm bolters. it can then carry some pop guns at the cost of losing that 4++ invol save.
The Wave Serpant Meanwhile packs 2 Shurkien Cannons (S6 24 inch, 6 shots, assault, and 6s are AP -3)
and 2twin shurken catapults.
Firepower Advantage: Clearly the Wave serpant.
Transport Capacity:
Impulsor: it can carry 6 primaris Marines, so long as they are not jump troops or gravis.
Wave Serpant: it can carry 12 units. including wraith units (though they count as 2)
Advantage: blantently Wave Serpant.
So... yeah the grass may seem greener on the other side but the Wave serpant is the better transport.
Their vehicles also better at shooting on the move than those of craftworlders and tau.
Noooo, Iron Hands or Ultramarines might be, but not all Marines are.
Low initiative armies always swinging last in previous editions was understandable frustrating, but it feels like aeldari armies lost this significant advantage and didn't really get anything to compensate.
I'll agree there, when I first saw this I actually worried it could be a problem for Eldar, GW proably figured with their better foot speed Eldar would be the ones entering combat more often then not but it's not working. assuming they don't have it, eldar should proably get some sort of "fight first" strat.
Jump-shoot-jump was also understandably a frustrating ability to go up against in previous editions, but it's basically gone for the eldar and tau whose playstyle it used to define, and if I'm not mistaken, certain new marines can do it about as well as their xenos counterparts.
not that I can think of, if it is it's extremely limited. but hey, bagging on Marines is cool.
Even scooting extreme distances across the table with bikes and skimmers isn't really a thing. Sure, they can move pretty far, but not that much farther than a marine biker or even an ork with a good advance roll.
How much faster should eldar BE? should they move twice as fast as everyone else? three times as fast?
Rly, stop making forged analyze.
Price:
Impulsor - full arnament 107 pts
WS with 2 cannons(extra 8 pts) - 147 pts
38% cheaper clearly winner Impulsor. For 2 WS can get 3 Impulsors.
If you don`t upgrade
Capacity
Impulsor 6 + the abbility to drop after move
WS 12 - no abbilioty to drop after move
Clearly winner Impulsor. The abbility to drop after move is much stronger than the extra 6 capacity. Especially when it`s easier to get more vehicles because of the price.
Toughness
Impulsor -11 wounds for 107pts(even if you take the barrage) with 4++ its obvious that Impulsor is much tougher.
But that is 9.72 pts per wound
WS - 11 .3 pts per wound.
If you want some unit to go in Impulsor with 4++ will do it. Impulsor is also -2 to charge, what makes it even better at controlling the map and make it harder to get through.
More wounds per point.
Bharring wrote: Marines piling out of an Invictus are faster than Kabs riding in a Raider.
I don't understand what are you talking about, do you mean the Impulsor?
Kabs don't need to get out of Raider, and that is probably why it is tad slower than say a Serpent: so DE won't bring all the guns into rapid fire range easier.
In a game with 24" no-man's land a flying vehicle with a 14" move (that can, given the right subfaction, be a 17" move) is going to get within rapid fire range of frontline troops turn 1.
Also, hell, we now give spess mehrines full rapid fire out to 30" on their guns if they castle up and infiltrators that show up during deployment, so I guess we are A-OK with everyone being able to just bring their full power turn 1 in 8th edition 40k.
8th edition can pretty much be simulated by writing out a unit's rules on a card, setting them down on the board, and just rolling dice against the other players' units to remove them. The board and models are at this point unnecessary expenses.
I've said beford with all the stackable buffs, and strategems, spells relics and warlord traits, as well as charcter specific re roll bubbles it really is more of a collectable card game than a war game.
Too many models. Terrain is largely irrelevant. There is so much fire power that with out good invul saves you just pick up any model they can draw line of sight to, or any model they can charge.
I play fun elfs (in spaaaaace), I live by speed. I would prefer to have usable cover rules to more speed. You can only target if you have a clear view of the hull. A third or more obstructed -1 to hit. Crossing to pieces of terain -2 to hit. Sails, banners, prows and weapons can not be shot.
That would make it a game of manuver as opposed to a drage race. But a game like that would need fewer units on the board to finish a game.
Have you tried playing cities of death then? It's slightly different (intervening terrain or models only conveys a -1 to hit, and there is a distinction between "soft terrain" and "Hard terrain' where pieces designated by the players as hard terrain convey a +2 to sv rather than +1) but basically gets the job done. I greatly prefer CoD rules to normal 40k for a satisfying smaller game that doesn't just have models getting blown away left and right.
I love cities of death. My local players with some of the rules now (Hard/Soft cover, intervening terrain, Lucky hits). Just not the road rules and height +1 to hit (b.c all top levels for us is hard cover so we dont want to double dip in rules).
Amishprn86 wrote: I love cities of death. My local players with some of the rules now (Hard/Soft cover, intervening terrain, Lucky hits). Just not the road rules and height +1 to hit (b.c all top levels for us is hard cover so we dont want to double dip in rules).
We kept the bonus AP for top floors but ruled all top floors are soft, not hard cover.
Coming back to the OP, I think the designers missed a trick in 8th by not going back to the 2nd ed base speed - human base speed would be 4", rather than 6". That way, when an Eldar has a base speed of 6", say, they're already half again as fast on foot.
Eldar base speed during 2nd was 5". Banshees had 6", but Guardians, Scorpions, Avengers etc had 5".
Tyranids were base 6" move. Gants, Stealers, Warriors were all 6.
That's what I get for not double-checking my books before posting
General point - if the "default" speed is smaller, then any race with a higher speed is going to feel proportionally faster.
Amishprn86 wrote: I love cities of death. My local players with some of the rules now (Hard/Soft cover, intervening terrain, Lucky hits). Just not the road rules and height +1 to hit (b.c all top levels for us is hard cover so we dont want to double dip in rules).
We kept the bonus AP for top floors but ruled all top floors are soft, not hard cover.
I don't feel my Tau are slow. I do feel the design of the Codex and loss of JSJ Really hurts the Ghostkeel and Crisis suits which pushed us towards a more gunline style. Also yes the Coldstar is insanely mobile to use that mobility to its fullest it's often on its own.
And yet, when you tell people that they can play something smaller than 2000 points AND follow what the actual game designers suggest, people look at you in a funny way.
They are all happy to play apocalypse games (without using apocalypse rules).
kingheff wrote: I kinda wish they'd make the cities of death the default rules to be honest.
It's got a bit of bloat to it, they added a bunch of stuff that is just kind of overwhelming (There's 1-2 key stratagems you should really use with CoD to keep the game from becoming a castlefest, but a lot are basically unnecessary) so I don't know if just slapping it on as the base game is the best idea.
But Obscurement, Hard and Soft cover, and the Grappling/Breaching stratagems are amazing additions to any 40k game. Really reduce deadliness down to a more reasonable level, and make terrain matter while not making shooting units the absolute be-all-end-all.
captain collius wrote: I don't feel my Tau are slow. I do feel the design of the Codex and loss of JSJ Really hurts the Ghostkeel and Crisis suits which pushed us towards a more gunline style. Also yes the Coldstar is insanely mobile to use that mobility to its fullest it's often on its own.
I love running the coldstar with a group or two of the remora stealth drones, it makes a nice litttle Air Force.
It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.
No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.
Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?
But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.
No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.
Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?
But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.
I mention nids a few times in here. My kraken list (just like many others) moves 2-3 units a turn 30+ inches, if you get a good set up 1 Genestealer unit can move 70+ inches between the move+advance+double+double move+melee+move after melee+melee again with its 2 piles ins/consolidates. There is a reason why people take 2-3 units of 20, b.c it only takes 1 unit to work to WORK.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.
No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.
Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?
But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.
Toxicrenes have M8, Dreadnoughts have M6, the big Relic Dreadnought and Wraithlords have M8 but their M characteristic degrades.
The only units getting shifted to Legends are those that GW doesn't produce any longer and are not in one of the current codices, you'll be fine playing with your Toxicrene and Haruspex for quite a while (even if they are currently overpriced).
Gene St. Ealer wrote: It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.
No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.
Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?
But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.
I mention nids a few times in here. My kraken list (just like many others) moves 2-3 units a turn 30+ inches, if you get a good set up 1 Genestealer unit can move 70+ inches between the move+advance+double+double move+melee+move after melee+melee again with its 2 piles ins/consolidates. There is a reason why people take 2-3 units of 20, b.c it only takes 1 unit to work to WORK.
And if the marine player gets first turn your Jeanstealers are shot off the board before doing anything. then the swarmy gets nuked by heavy weapons....
I dont play competively, I love my big bugs but they all blow huge chunks. the carnifex was hot garbage before they gave it a plus to hit on charge and spores, (i have 9 metal Sks)
i dont even try to field the big stuff anymore there is no point.
Haruspex is such hot garbage it can not kill a unit of basic space marines in an entire game. its a giant tar pit of points that cant kill anything.
I think "if you don't go first you lose" is unfortunately the gamble every assault unit without a near guarantee to make a 9" charge after deepstriking has. If you bring one unit of genestealers, yes they will die. If you bring 3 units of 20, its a bit more work.
But yes, I realise thats a huge points investment and if it doesn't work out, you lose very quickly.
The big bugs were however just badly designed (from the start tbh) and GW clearly can't decide what they should do with them. I mean you can say Genestealers die - but I'd rather have 15~ of them than a Haruspex. I'm not quite sure how low you'd have to go to the point where the Haruspex is the better option. Similar story with the Toxicrene.
If they were 80 points or something stupidly low they'd probably be worth bringing along as cheap meat, but no one would look across the table and go "I'm really worried about what they can do if I don't deal with them". They fundamentally need a rules change.
I feel that my Eldar don’t move as much as they should. A lot of grav tanks sitting back and dropping fire downrange. But when I do need to move? I’m there, almost instantly. Bikes flitting about. Disembark + move + run = far. Jain Zar can hop out of a falcon and be carving someone up across the table before you can blink.
So it doesn’t feel like a very mobile play style, but when the chips are down and movements needs to happen, they have it under the hood and deliver.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: It seems like nobody here plays Tyranids anymore, so I'm going to controversially nominate them as feeling slow.
No, not Kraken Genestealers or Swarmy or Harpies and Hive Crones (which, btw, who cares that Harpies and Hive Crones are fast? They are such incredible garbage units.), no, those are obviously good.
Its our MCs that are frustratingly slow. If you made a Toxicrene or a Haruspex fast, they still wouldn't be good, but it's pretty gakking lame that Dreadnoughts and Rhinos and Wraithlords all out-race them. The more I think about it, the more a Haruspex makes me think the Hive Mind is a little touched in the head. It births this massive garbage disposal creature that can't run, can't hit, and can't survive. Why would Nids have something that worthless?
But nobody plays Nids anymore, and even when people did, very few of them shared my love for the big Squigglies. I half-expect those units to get shifted to Legends.
Toxicrenes have M8, Dreadnoughts have M6, the big Relic Dreadnought and Wraithlords have M8 but their M characteristic degrades.
The only units getting shifted to Legends are those that GW doesn't produce any longer and are not in one of the current codices, you'll be fine playing with your Toxicrene and Haruspex for quite a while (even if they are currently overpriced).
Right, I forgot that some dreads do have M6, correct. And yeah, I know Toxicrenes and Haruspexes won't really get Legended, but it's clear GW doesn't give a feth about them. The Toxicrene could probably be fixed with points drops; Haruspex fundamentally needs new rules.
TheAvengingKnee wrote: Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.
Then you aren't playing with enough of them. Not joking, take 160 of them with broodlords, swarmlord+guard, and rippers to DS on objectives and call it a day.
TheAvengingKnee wrote: Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.
Then you aren't playing with enough of them. Not joking, take 160 of them with broodlords, swarmlord+guard, and rippers to DS on objectives and call it a day.
Edit spelling.
160 Genestealers is 1,920 points on their own.
Spamming Swarmlord, Broodlords, Genestealers, and Hive Guard is also a rather boring way to play, with little room for variation. And if the only way to get melee to work is to take our top-tier most competitive single tournament-viable combo build, well, that speaks volumes.
*Jump-shoot-jump has been replaced with falling back and shooting, a generally pretty powerful benefit, especially in an edition where you can charge in any direction as long as one model makes it to within 1" of a unit you charged and then you can pile into the closest enemy model instead of just ganging up in a clump around whatever you charged.
Falling back and shooting is very powerful, but I don't think it's accurate to say that it has replaced jump-shoot-jump. Many units that couldn't JSJcan fall back and shoot. Also, jumping away from a unit that has already charged you and smacked you around a bit has a very different "feel" from a rule that lets you avoid harm in the first place. Falling back with Fly lets you feel like you're good at making escapes. JSJ let you feel like you were being cagey and using the terrain to stay safe.
This. JSJ was about using manoeuvrability to avoid getting caught, be it in combat or in LOS of enemy guns.
Falling back from combat is no protection against shooting and necessitates being caught in the first place.
So JSJ was a technique to avoid your enemy, Fall back shoot is a technique to escape when you've failed to evade your enemy.
People found fighting against JSJ annoying but what JSJ actually did (as long the second jump distances are not too large, looking at you nova charged riptide) was make movement a more important part of the game by making it so you had to think about where you needed your units to be to catch the JSJer, to force them into a position from which they couldn't escape.
Karol wrote: wouldn't moving then shoting mean that a slower army would never be able to catch your army, because you are effectivly moving at the speed of a tank?
By move then shoot I assume you mean move-shoot-move again?
Maybe if the board were infinite in size and with an infinite amount of terrain to hide behind. It isn't. There is only so far that you can move backwards and only so much terrain on the board to hide behind. An opponent positioning their forces to eliminate the safe spaces to hide which also enable the JSJ unit to get into range to attack means that the JSJ unit either needs to now expose itself to attack, or hide and not contribute.
Then there is also weaponry which does not require LOS, fast units like cavalry and bikes, deep strike etc.
There were lots of counters to the JSJ tactic. If GW had properly balanced the game, then every army would have been able to utilise at least one of them.
TheAvengingKnee wrote: Geanstealers that aren’t GSC are just trash anyway, very few armies can’t shoot them off the board with their terrible saves.
Then you aren't playing with enough of them. Not joking, take 160 of them with broodlords, swarmlord+guard, and rippers to DS on objectives and call it a day.
Edit spelling.
160 Genestealers is 1,920 points on their own.
Spamming Swarmlord, Broodlords, Genestealers, and Hive Guard is also a rather boring way to play, with little room for variation. And if the only way to get melee to work is to take our top-tier most competitive single tournament-viable combo build, well, that speaks volumes.
You mean like a Sicaran?
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