https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/15/ritual-of-the-damned-chapter-focus-dark-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/ WOW
Lazerus give out 5+ FNP bubble at 6" he himself gets a 4+FNP (opps just for mortal wounds)
DA super doctrine is +6 inch range to heavy and rapid fire and +3 to assault (expert marksmen but better)
Chaplin has a litany 6" aura to count as stationary if you don't advance or fall back (Ultramarines superdoctrine)(in effect giving you reroll 1's for their chapter tactic of reroll 1's from being stationary - havnt seen the tactic but it probably got better too)
They also get a pregame move with a biker unit AND the ability to drop in DW terms outside of 6 (this is actually kinda cool)
Xenomancers wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/15/ritual-of-the-damned-chapter-focus-dark-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/
WOW
Lazerus give out 5+ FNP bubble at 6" he himself gets a 4+FNP (Ironhands chapter tactic +1)
DA super doctrine is +6 inch range to heavy and rapid fire and +3 to assault (expert marksmen but better)
Chaplin has a litany 6" aura to count as stationary if you don't advance or fall back (Ultramarines superdoctrine)(in effect giving you reroll 1's for their chapter tactic of reroll 1's from being stationary - havnt seen the tactic but it probably got better too)
They also get a pregame move with a biker unit AND the ability to drop in DW terms outside of 6 (this is actually kinda cool)
Good stuff GW. Just what everyone wanted. 4++ 5+FNP bubbles with 6" bonus range. Also extremely fluffy - when I think DA...I certainly think about their insane durability...Essentially GW figured DA should have all the abilities of ironhands and ultramarines combined. Plus special units too. GW - fire your rules writers please!
1) Only for Mortal Wounds, L2Read
2) Already spoiled
3) We already knew this as well
Yeah, what KurtAngle said. It seems pretty decent but it's a very conditional FNP bubble. The super doctrine is good but has strange synergy with being a Devastator doctrine but probably having the biggest effect on Rapid Fire weapons since Heavy weapons tend to have long ranges anyway. Stoic and resolute is kind of the DA thing and has been for a very long time so it's not that surprising they get some rules that enhance survivability.
This seems like a very knee-jerk reaction to a small number of reveals. DA will be good - they're Space Marines with all the fancy Doctrine rules now - but it's far too early to say they'll be better than current Codex marines.
"Oh boy, i sure hope my Ravenwing get something."
"You get to RR1 if you stay still."
screams in secret chaos worship
laughs in Iron Hands getting five traits to Dark Angels one and a half
Ishagu wrote: They do have some great rules. The helm is only for Mortal Wounds, btw.
@Xenomancers
Will you be using your Ultras as Dark Angels now? :-P
No reason no to. Get super doctrine turn 1 and with more range and a 4++ aura. Plus can use the superior stalker pattern. Gain basically nothing for being ultras except I don't have to reroll a 3+ to get my stationary bonus but they can get it turn 1.
Xenomancers wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/15/ritual-of-the-damned-chapter-focus-dark-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/
WOW
Lazerus give out 5+ FNP bubble at 6" he himself gets a 4+FNP (Ironhands chapter tactic +1)
DA super doctrine is +6 inch range to heavy and rapid fire and +3 to assault (expert marksmen but better)
Chaplin has a litany 6" aura to count as stationary if you don't advance or fall back (Ultramarines superdoctrine)(in effect giving you reroll 1's for their chapter tactic of reroll 1's from being stationary - havnt seen the tactic but it probably got better too)
They also get a pregame move with a biker unit AND the ability to drop in DW terms outside of 6 (this is actually kinda cool)
Good stuff GW. Just what everyone wanted. 4++ 5+FNP bubbles with 6" bonus range. Also extremely fluffy - when I think DA...I certainly think about their insane durability...Essentially GW figured DA should have all the abilities of ironhands and ultramarines combined. Plus special units too. GW - fire your rules writers please!
1) Only for Mortal Wounds, L2Read
2) Already spoiled
3) We already knew this as well
It was just released dude - as in today - this is a spoiler. You might have known from a GW spy or something that spoiled the spoiler. This is news to most of us.
Plasma still kills expensive 2/3w too easy (natural 1 = 1 mortal please).
No RW characters (they took away all of my biker characters in legends...). I'd love for RW/DW primaris but whatever.
Better than nothing. Just doctrines + litanies will help a lot but nothing game breaking as far as I've seen. Until they reign in the super marines a lot of stuff will seem lack luster.
I really wish they would have taken the time to change the bonus to if you move you get to re-roll 1s (which seems more DA to me) instead of a poor copy paste.
Plasma still kills expensive 2/3w too easy (natural 1 = 1 mortal please).
No RW characters (they took away all of my biker characters in legends...). I'd love for RW/DW primaris but whatever.
Better than nothing. Just doctrines + litanies will help a lot but nothing game breaking as far as I've seen. Until they reign in the super marines a lot of stuff will seem lack luster.
I really wish they would have taken the time to change the bonus to if you move you get to re-roll 1s (which seems more DA to me) instead of a poor copy paste.
This is super marines. lol. These DA will come with a 4++ aura. Basically the best ability in the game and with bonus range balling up isn't as big as a problem. They will be in the mix.
Unlike a lot of the other super doctrines this benefits weapons outside of the doctrines initial area. There isn't a single unit that isn't made better by this unlike a lot of chapters.
Flamers now work out of deepstrike, it helps melta weapons get inside threat range, bikes and termies rapid firing at 30" all the time.
Anything that doesn't move, and likely won't need to now, gains rr1's to hit.
Plasma still kills expensive 2/3w too easy (natural 1 = 1 mortal please).
No RW characters (they took away all of my biker characters in legends...). I'd love for RW/DW primaris but whatever.
Better than nothing. Just doctrines + litanies will help a lot but nothing game breaking as far as I've seen. Until they reign in the super marines a lot of stuff will seem lack luster.
I really wish they would have taken the time to change the bonus to if you move you get to re-roll 1s (which seems more DA to me) instead of a poor copy paste.
This is super marines. lol. These DA will come with a 4++ aura. Basically the best ability in the game and with bonus range balling up isn't as big as a problem. They will be in the mix.
Have you EVER seen something new and not declared it the best in the game? It's only on mw and for all we know Lazarus is 250 points.
That said anybody saying that super doctrine isn't strong either isn't thinking or being disingenuous. One of nu-marines biggest strengths is primaris increased range compared to normal factions. With this super doctrine da intercessors and hellblasters will out range most other infantry in the game by 50%. If they take the stalker bolt rifle option that goes up another 6 plus an additional -1ap. Plus increased range on everything else.
Someone at gw must have really liked building castles as a kid.
BaconCatBug wrote: "Oh boy, i sure hope my Ravenwing get something."
"You get to RR1 if you stay still."
screams in secret chaos worship
laughs in Iron Hands getting five traits to Dark Angels one and a half
Ravenwing got a bunch of stuff y'all.
A relic that reduces the invulnerable saves of enemy units on extremely mobile biker characters.
A warlord trait that grants a 12" pregame move to the warlord and 1 friendly unit, basically guaranteeing a turn 1 shoot+charge.
A warlord trait that grants a 6" bubble of whatever doctrine you want to be active around the warlord
A stratagem that grants full rerolls to hit for all ravenwing on the board against an enemy target
And you don't even have to pick 1-2 of the 9 new stratagems you got and only use those!
Complete set of leaks for reference:
Doctrine kicker: While in Devastator Doctrine, Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons get +6" range, Assault and Pistol weapons get +3" range
DW Warlord Traits:
1. DW units within 6" reroll melee wounds versus CHARACTERS or models with 8+ Wounds
2. Wound rolls of 1 -3 automatically fail.
3. Once per battle may Deny the Witch, unlimited range, auto pass
RW Warlord Traits:
1. RW units within 6" move and fire heavy at no penalty and Advance and fire Assault at no penalty
2. Once per battle at start of round, select an inactive Doctrine, RW units within 6" may use that instead of the active
3. Start of first round, Warlord and one other RW unit may move up to 12", no Advance, must stay outside of 9"
Stratagems:
A bunch of the vanilla SM Codex Stratagems (incluing Vet Intercessors and their shooty ones)
Combined Assault (2 CP): Teleporting unit of DW may set up within 6" of a friendly RW unit that hasn't Advanced and outside of 6" from enemy
High Speed Focus (1 CP): RW unit targeted by shooting counts as having Jinked that turn.
Full Throttle (1 CP): RW unit that just moved immediately moves again, may not shoot or charge that turn
Targeting Guidance (1 CP): Pick an enemy unit within 12" of a RW Land Speder and visible, DA units may reroll shooting hits against it this phase.
Outnumbered Never Outmatched (1 CP): DW unit chosen to fight gets +1 A when fighting enemy unit of 10 or more models
Evasive Assault (1 CP): RW unit that charged or has been charged is chosen as a target, it gets 5++
Relics
Reliquiary of the Repenant: RW Bike only, Enemy models within 3" reduce invul by 1 to minimum 6++
Corvus Occuls: Talonmaster, +6" to range weapons and +1 to hit with range weapons
Standard of the Unforgiven Hunt: RW Ancient, +1 Advance/cherge for RW within 6"
Blade of Burden: DW Master w/ power sword, S+2 AP-4, D2, natural wound of 6 is 2 MW
Pennant of the Remeberance: DW Ancient, 5+ Fnp for DW INFANTRY within 6"
???? - DW only, +1 S and A
Special Issue Wargear
Adamantite Mantle, Artificer Armor, Mastercrafted Weapon, Digital Weapons
Arbititer Gaze: Ignores shooting and BS penalties, Overwatches on full BS
Angel's Ambit: +3" to aura abilities
Bolt of Judgement: pick a bolt weapon, it may fire a bolt of judgment, makes one attack at AP -2 and 3 D, wounds on 2+ excpet Vehicles/Monsters 6+
Lazarus
Standard Primaris Master Line (W6 A5)
Emity's Edge S+2 AP -4 Dd3, reroll wound and damage vs Psyker
Plasma still kills expensive 2/3w too easy (natural 1 = 1 mortal please).
No RW characters (they took away all of my biker characters in legends...). I'd love for RW/DW primaris but whatever.
Better than nothing. Just doctrines + litanies will help a lot but nothing game breaking as far as I've seen. Until they reign in the super marines a lot of stuff will seem lack luster.
I really wish they would have taken the time to change the bonus to if you move you get to re-roll 1s (which seems more DA to me) instead of a poor copy paste.
This is super marines. lol. These DA will come with a 4++ aura. Basically the best ability in the game and with bonus range balling up isn't as big as a problem. They will be in the mix.
Have you EVER seen something new and not declared it the best in the game? It's only on mw and for all we know Lazarus is 250 points.
That said anybody saying that super doctrine isn't strong either isn't thinking or being disingenuous. One of nu-marines biggest strengths is primaris increased range compared to normal factions. With this super doctrine da intercessors and hellblasters will out range most other infantry in the game by 50%. If they take the stalker bolt rifle option that goes up another 6 plus an additional -1ap. Plus increased range on everything else.
Someone at gw must have really liked building castles as a kid.
Azreal is not new. his 4++ aura for infantry is the best aura in the game. It's reroll all hits and 4++ save to infantry. Please find me a better aura. Keep in mind they did remove Gmans reroll all wounds aura.
BaconCatBug wrote: "Oh boy, i sure hope my Ravenwing get something."
"You get to RR1 if you stay still."
screams in secret chaos worship
laughs in Iron Hands getting five traits to Dark Angels one and a half
Meanwhile Iron Hands get that on every single unit for free and also get RR1 whether they move or not and don't have to a) Babysit a Warlord and b) Sacrifice a Warlord Trait for it.
Wow. That is a lot of good stuff.
-1 Invune 3" aura and you can just full throttle the dude in there for with a 2 inch long bike for 1 CP. That is going to be powerful.
Certainly a lot of tools. The biggest factor is
Dev Doctrines Super doctrine (makes no sense but okay) gives bonus range to every ranged weapon in the army not a grenade.
As someone who tends to play Ultramarines and White Scars I'm actually a little jealous. DA can now replicate a lot of the shenanigans that I favor those two chapters for.
That super docrtine would be much better on Tactical Doctrine though.
BaconCatBug wrote: Meanwhile Iron Hands get that on every single unit for free and also get RR1 whether they move or not and don't have to a) Babysit a Warlord and b) Sacrifice a Warlord Trait for it.
Not the assault weapons part. That is huge too. I think DA can just take a WL trait for 1 CP. 1 CP to get Ironhands best ability but better and you still have your own super doctrine...kinda silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Newman wrote: As someone who tends to play Ultramarines and White Scars I'm actually a little jealous. DA can now replicate a lot of the shenanigans that I favor those two chapters for.
That super docrtine would be much better on Tactical Doctrine though.
You should be jealous they got all your rules and tricks and have tricks of their own. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out Ultras have been shafted.
BaconCatBug wrote: Meanwhile Iron Hands get that on every single unit for free and also get RR1 whether they move or not and don't have to a) Babysit a Warlord and b) Sacrifice a Warlord Trait for it.
And RW get Jink for free, don't have to go to successor for the extra range (which covers more weapons) and have some very excellent combinations. Not to mention IH are borked and shouldn't the the standard to aspire to.
Elhazard wrote: So, what are the ravenwing character options we have to use all these new warlord traits and relics on?
The talonmaster I think hes called? Basically a landspeeder with a melee characters profile that grants reroll 1's to ravenwing within 6" from memory, pretty decent character tbh.
Ishagu wrote: They do have some great rules. The helm is only for Mortal Wounds, btw.
@Xenomancers
Will you be using your Ultras as Dark Angels now? :-P
No reason no to. Get super doctrine turn 1 and with more range and a 4++ aura. Plus can use the superior stalker pattern. Gain basically nothing for being ultras except I don't have to reroll a 3+ to get my stationary bonus but they can get it turn 1.
.
the DA litany isd only a 6 inch bubble if used, given the advantage of the UM super doctrine is to allow increased mobility etc I'd say the DA litany is not really going to be a acceptable subsisute
RW ancient, champion, apothecary or a talonmaster...
I get your point and I wish there was a way I could bring a RW chaplain/master (that's not a named character) but GW has decided to squat (legends are squatted I don't care what you say) all characters on bikes.
Guess we have to wait until the next release of primaris on bikes to re-buy the fluffy elements of our GOSH DARNED BIKER ARMY!!!! Makes about sense as our chapter tactic for a quick strike chapter being built around standing still...
Same way that WD article mentioned aggressors being folded into DW but without keywords to support it it falls flat. Inceptors should be RW and aggressors should be DW but that's too many moving parts for GW to juggle I guess...
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
And Logan "Start a civil war over the treatment of Armageddon Steel Legion troops by the Grey Knights to the point where they invade the Fenris System, try to assassinate Logan and Logan kills a Grey Knight Grand Master in response" Grimnar just rolled over and let the Inquisition cull 96% of the population of Fenris, thus essentially killing the planet and the Space Wolves chapter as they won't be able to recover in population (and unlike most other marine chapters the SW can only recruit from a single world), and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day.
Just like how Baal and the Blood Angels got nearly wiped out and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day. I get it, they want to squat oldmarines but at least don't be so blatant about it.
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
And Logan "Start a civil war over the treatment of Armageddon Steel Legion troops by the Grey Knights to the point where they invade the Fenris System, try to assassinate Logan and Logan kills a Grey Knight Grand Master in response" Grimnar just rolled over and let the Inquisition cull 96% of the population of Fenris, thus essentially killing the planet and the Space Wolves chapter as they won't be able to recover in population (and unlike most other marine chapters the SW can only recruit from a single world), and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day.
Just like how Baal and the Blood Angels got nearly wiped out and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day. I get it, they want to squat oldmarines but at least don't be so blatant about it.
It is what it is. I still play eighth Edition fantasy. We all enjoy the game through our own point of view.
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.
Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.
It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.
Gadzilla666 wrote: That said anybody saying that super doctrine isn't strong either isn't thinking or being disingenuous. One of nu-marines biggest strengths is primaris increased range compared to normal factions. With this super doctrine da intercessors and hellblasters will out range most other infantry in the game by 50%. If they take the stalker bolt rifle option that goes up another 6 plus an additional -1ap. Plus increased range on everything else.
Someone at gw must have really liked building castles as a kid.
I'm possibly underestimating it but I don't see it doing much. Okay - plus range on short range guns like flamers you can stick in people's face is great, we know this.
Longer range on already long range guns though is often superfluous. Okay your stalkers can shoot something 42 inches away. But does that really help them versus being able to shoot the regular 36"? Tables are not that big, unless you are back-lining them they would most likely be in range of whatever you wanted to shoot anyway. It seems like an edge case rather than something that will constantly be useful. Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?
I'm cynical due to the amount of effort I feel Tau players have put in with Borkhan, only to (mostly) conclude that Tau is just better - for several reasons beyond just chapter tactics, but I think the above is a big part of it. The theory of being able to reach out 42" exceeds the actual practice of doing so.
6">3", but I feel those short range weapons are getting the benefit from Long Range Marksmen. The argument is therefore reroll 1s if you stand still as good as say Master Artisans (unless it gets buffed). As you say, castle up, don't move, enjoy both - but I'm not easily persuaded giving up movement will be the winning choice. And if you are castling up in this way, you probably want to have Azrael, which dillutes the ability to reroll 1s.
Basically it doesn't seem to work now - I'm not seeing why its going to be especially hot in the future.
BaconCatBug wrote:Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
If you're going to talk about lore being correctly followed, I'd suggest you read it first before making a statement like that.
The Dark Angels accepting Primaris from the first wave of reinforcements into the Inner Circle? Yeah, that would be unlikely. But, luckily, that's not what happened. The Primaris delegate of the Dark Angels during the Vigilus war literally had no idea what the Deathwing and Ravenwing forces deployed under his command were actually doing, and had been kept entirely in the dark.
What's actually happening is that pre-existing Dark Angels, who have already proven their loyalty like any other Dark Angel has, or ones who have only known the doctrines of the Unforgiven (like any other Dark Angel), are simply being made more powerful. That's it. If you cross the Rubicon Primaris, you don't suddenly become a discount Ultramarine and give away all your secrets. You're just another Dark Angel.
Or, are you suggesting that the Dark Angels, since the Heresy, have never recruited a single other member into the Deathwing? Because they must have taken new members in at some point - and who says that new Primaris members homegrown by the Chapter wouldn't be suitable?
It's misconceptions like these about Primaris that lead to the kind of misinformation displayed here.
Blastaar wrote:GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.
It's no different to them accepting any other Dark Angel.
You, like BCB, have made the assumption that all Primaris are made up of the first wave that Guilliman released during the Indomitus Crusade. That is not true.
As said above, the first wave of Primaris are unlikely to have been inducted, I'll agree on that. But you haven't factored in Primaris Marines who have been inducted into the Chapter like any other Firstborn Marine (ie, recruited as a teenager from a DA recruiting world, implanted and indoctrinated, and left to rise the ranks of the Dark Angels), or ones who have been a member of the Dark Angels for centuries, and have crossed the Rubicon Primaris (like Lazarus). In both of their cases, they have just as much reason to be a member of the Inner Circle as any other Firstborn Dark Angel: their Primaris status doesn't affect their loyalty or suddenly rewrite their personality.
If it's a case of 'I simply don't want Primaris models in my army', then that's simple - don't take them. Just because the Ultramarines 2nd now has Primaris in it doesn't mean I need to add any Primaris to my own Ultramarines 2nd. It's a provision for those who want to follow the lore and have their own awesome looking models.
Yeah, the more I think about it the worse I think it is.
Great on levi dreads and heavy flamers but the other things I'd want to use it on want to be in assault doc. The re-roll of 1's if you stay still is just so bad to me there needs to be larger upside. I'm salty about legends removing a couple units that would benefit from a lot of this (double flamer land speeders, chaplains on bike).
Heavy plasma hellblasters are a terrible unit (and are significantly better as IF if you wanted to go that route).
If you are castling you want azzy and azzy gives you full re-rolls. My elems will like it but that's about all in my army that stands still and cares about getting re-rolls 1 to hit. Let units that move/advance do it and then we've got something but standing still and shooting with DA isn't a winning strategy.
The 6" bubble of ignore moving penalties for RW is great on the sammy and talon master death ball and I may end up using that in some soup with some flyers and a dark shroud but that's a lot of fragile per point wounds that could end up with me getting tabled turn 3.
The auto deny one power is great but I'd rather have a 4+ deny strat that doesn't take a WL trait.
I feel like GW is doubling down on a lot of the bad design choices that make DA bad in 8th and the basic chassis of SM 2.0 will be enough to make DA playable but still at the lower levels of the power curve (which says a lot about just how powerful SM are).
Not every army needs to be great and getting the base SM stuff will bring DA from the literal bottom of the barrel to an army you can win with (albeit with a disadvantage) if you can out play your opponent or come up with a good strategy (mechanically inferior but at least you are bringing a sword to a gun fight vs before where you were walking out with a pool noodle).
Rumors of the 2.0 DA dex along with releasing the "missing" primaris units will probably clean a lot of this up (if those rumors have any truth behind them). Some quality RavenWing characters, primaris bikers, primaris death wing could make this work but, in my experience, most RW/DW units just aren't that good and are even worse in the meta we are currently in.
I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.
bananathug wrote: Yeah, the more I think about it the worse I think it is.
Great on levi dreads and heavy flamers but the other things I'd want to use it on want to be in assault doc. The re-roll of 1's if you stay still is just so bad to me there needs to be larger upside. I'm salty about legends removing a couple units that would benefit from a lot of this (double flamer land speeders, chaplains on bike).
Heavy plasma hellblasters are a terrible unit (and are significantly better as IF if you wanted to go that route).
If you are castling you want azzy and azzy gives you full re-rolls. My elems will like it but that's about all in my army that stands still and cares about getting re-rolls 1 to hit. Let units that move/advance do it and then we've got something but standing still and shooting with DA isn't a winning strategy.
The 6" bubble of ignore moving penalties for RW is great on the sammy and talon master death ball and I may end up using that in some soup with some flyers and a dark shroud but that's a lot of fragile per point wounds that could end up with me getting tabled turn 3.
The auto deny one power is great but I'd rather have a 4+ deny strat that doesn't take a WL trait.
I feel like GW is doubling down on a lot of the bad design choices that make DA bad in 8th and the basic chassis of SM 2.0 will be enough to make DA playable but still at the lower levels of the power curve (which says a lot about just how powerful SM are).
Not every army needs to be great and getting the base SM stuff will bring DA from the literal bottom of the barrel to an army you can win with (albeit with a disadvantage) if you can out play your opponent or come up with a good strategy (mechanically inferior but at least you are bringing a sword to a gun fight vs before where you were walking out with a pool noodle).
Rumors of the 2.0 DA dex along with releasing the "missing" primaris units will probably clean a lot of this up (if those rumors have any truth behind them). Some quality RavenWing characters, primaris bikers, primaris death wing could make this work but, in my experience, most RW/DW units just aren't that good and are even worse in the meta we are currently in.
They have literally all the tools of the top faction ironhands. They might not be as simple to play as ironhands but overall they are probably MORE powerful than ironhands. They basically get all the same stuff with +6 range too. The only thing they are missing is MOA on every unit. An acceptable trade for a 4++ bubble. They can even make a unit on demand and doctrine they want and move and double tap with aggressors (4++ aggressors)...Plus talon master and Sammy on landspeeder were already borked and now they have doctrines. I think your assessment is off. The only thing they don't do as well is flyers and dreds/tanks...but if you look closely land speeder characters are basically a strom talon that can't be shot at due to character protection. Plus DA is an infantry focused army anyways.
You wont see hell blasters. Youll see agressors and intercessors with SBR azreal and character speeders - eliminators and tfcofc. Maybe some will try blackknights with a biker captain but the plasma slaying your own dudes is still to big of a risk.
Any word on if DA can take the masters abilities for apoths/chappy/ancient ect?
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JohnnyHell wrote: I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.
You don't want to do it with their super melle terms? Forget what they are called.
You don't even know that DA don't get access to TFCs...
No master abilities, no chapter master strat, no marine super captain re-rolls...
Have you even looked at a real good IH list? Grav strat + exploding sixes + no heavy weapon penalties in a pod, character dreads, TFCs, no penalties on suppressors, iron stone. Master artisans, stealthy...You don't have a clue what makes IH good. Spend some time on BCP and get an idea of what good IH lists are bringing and then re-assess...Super healing, super tech marines giving vehicles 2+s...
Can we make that your quote. DA are more powerful than IH...
You realize a lot of their strats are locked to RW and DW units. Do you even know what RW/DW units are? Azzy's bubble only applies to models w/in 6", not units. One TFC ensures the entire bubble isn't moving more than 3 inches a turn...
Sammy + talonmasters will be good and probably the gem of the codex. Aggressors in a 4++ bubble will make for a tough bully unit but UM do it just as well if not better and we don't see them tearing up the meta (without new re-rolls and a way to re-roll wounds massed s4 shooting struggles against a lot of in meta threats).
You have no idea how the basics of DA work and are making wildly absurd claims (better than IH...). BIKER CAPTAINS GOT LEGENDED!!. Is there a line in your rant that has any factual basis?
Pretty much everything you said is wrong, it's not even worth engaging with you but just in case someone stumbles across this BS they should realize you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.
JohnnyHell wrote: I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.
Whilst amazing for the lols and will overkill whatever you pointed it at... it's a huge chunk of points to be deleted the following turn - I'm going to try the same though
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.
Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.
It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.
Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
No it’s not. The initial first wave of reinforcements after Guilliman’s return was, but the fluff has moved on a couple of 100 years since then.
Gav Thorpes’ DA novels have the protagonist failing upward, first into the Ravenwing and then into the Deathwing, cause he keeps stumbling across secret stuff, all within a handful of years of being a Scout.
Why would a Primaris Marine after possibly 100 years of battle experience (still far more than the “effective” life expectancy of Marines, Primaris or not) not perhaps make Deathwing?
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.
Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.
It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.
Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
No they're not, the chapters are making their own primaris marines just like making normal marines, (or old marines are getting upgraded) and THOSE are the ones who are possiably entering the deathwing or the ravenwing.
this info has been out there since the summer time. people have been very clear about setting it out, at this point now the people who seem to think all primaris marines are really secret agents from Cawl grown in his vat clone chambers are being willfully ignorant.
Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.
These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.
Tyel wrote: Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?
If you are within 18" enemy will struggle to bring bear his rapid fire 12" weapons in full effect. It's not just what YOU can reach but what OPPONENT can reach.
Average threat range for cc is 6+7+1=14. Not that far off from 15"...Basically enemy has 42" chance of engaging you from 15" distance without any rerolls. Add 3" more and that means fishing for 11" charge. 1/12 odds...
Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything to buff my poor old tacticals yet. Well I suppose doctrines are nothing to be sniffed at. Also, I don't have any Primaris (not against them or anything, they just don't suit my particular project) so Lazarus's highly situational buffs mean nothing to me one way or another. On the plus side, that new litany gives my walking Interrogator Chaplain a whole new role that he can actually fulfill, so I love that. Reckon my next list is going to be Ravenwing inserting Deathwing into enemy lines to double tap and charge into enemy lines. Can't figure out what I'll do after turns two and three though.
Edit: Reading this back, I realized the tone came off rather negative. That's not my intention. So far the buffs I've seem very good and fluffy without anything egregious enough to evoke the ire of the community. I really like what I'm seeing so far.
JohnnyHell wrote: I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.
Whilst amazing for the lols and will overkill whatever you pointed it at... it's a huge chunk of points to be deleted the following turn - I'm going to try the same though
Oh for sure but that one time is gonna be great fun. But yeah, watching all those valiant first company Brothers dying will be sad.
Xeno, I don’t own any DW Knights and the Deathwing Assault strat is the key as they get two rounds of shooting off in one turn then an easy charge with powerfists galore.
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Jidmah wrote: I wonder if could train a neuronal net to create these threads automatically whenever any book is released...
Call it a Book Criticism Bot, which abbreviates as...
An Actual Englishman wrote: Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.
These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.
you know how it is, everyone insists they want balance... until their codex comes out where if it's not obviously at first glance a broken OP codex it's terribad
An Actual Englishman wrote: Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.
These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.
you know how it is, everyone insists they want balance... until their codex comes out where if it's not obviously at first glance a broken OP codex it's terribad
It's not the most broken thing ever but it's imply not bad in any context, it's hard to be disappointed by every gun in your army being a little better.
Tyel wrote: Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?
If you are within 18" enemy will struggle to bring bear his rapid fire 12" weapons in full effect. It's not just what YOU can reach but what OPPONENT can reach.
Average threat range for cc is 6+7+1=14. Not that far off from 15"...Basically enemy has 42" chance of engaging you from 15" distance without any rerolls. Add 3" more and that means fishing for 11" charge. 1/12 odds...
Another thing of note is that since we're talking about Marines that want to stay stationary anyway given that they're Dark Angels, we could very well be dealing with double-tapping at max range with their bolt weapons.
Doesn't apply for Stalker Rifles since they're heavy of course, but for Bolt Rifles it certainly needs to be taken into consideration.
Better than Stalkers? Maybe not in mirrors but certianly against chaff.
Tyel wrote: Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?
If you are within 18" enemy will struggle to bring bear his rapid fire 12" weapons in full effect. It's not just what YOU can reach but what OPPONENT can reach.
Average threat range for cc is 6+7+1=14. Not that far off from 15"...Basically enemy has 42" chance of engaging you from 15" distance without any rerolls. Add 3" more and that means fishing for 11" charge. 1/12 odds...
Another thing of note is that since we're talking about Marines that want to stay stationary anyway given that they're Dark Angels, we could very well be dealing with double-tapping at max range with their bolt weapons.
Doesn't apply for Stalker Rifles since they're heavy of course, but for Bolt Rifles it certainly needs to be taken into consideration.
Better than Stalkers? Maybe not in mirrors but certianly against chaff.
yeah, dark angels intercessors are going to be double tapping out to 36 inches. and once your enemy closes you can shift to tactical doctrine for the 1 AP to your bolt rifles without losing anything. over all I think it's a pretty elegant set up. It's not gonna be point and click to victory but I but there's gonna be some savvy DA players who use it well
I know its crazy talk, but two points, can we wait before we say DA are going to be amazing or crappy till after we see what they do on the table top at least ?
For number two, I'd say again, people may get some of the head cannon wrong for Primaris but some people just don't like them very much from their dumb roll out through their actual story drives that feel very formulaic and dull. At this point I know enough to still say I dislike them. It is possible to understand them and still think they are meh. A poorly rolled out excuse to upsize marines without just saying " Hey, we're upsizing marines " in some vain attempt to make people buy whole new armies.
Not to derail the topic at hand just putting that out there. The DA look alright, nothing over the top exciting, nothing awful bad. I doubt they'll be the next big thing but should feel better playing as them to all the die hards and that is a good thing I feel. So long as you feel you have a fighting chance, that's all we can hope for and all I'm hoping for with the Space wolves.
For number two, I'd say again, people may get some of the head cannon wrong for Primaris but some people just don't like them very much from their dumb roll out through their actual story drives that feel very formulaic and dull. At this point I know enough to still say I dislike them. It is possible to understand them and still think they are meh. A poorly rolled out excuse to upsize marines without just saying " Hey, we're upsizing marines " in some vain attempt to make people buy whole new armies.
Which is the part I don't get.
If you genuinely dislike Primaris, you can still play your old Marines precisely because the background writers were evidently asked to come up with background that would justify both "old" and "new" Marines on the tabletop (irrespective of the quality of said Background).
If Primaris had simply been "here're the new sculpts for Marines, please trash your previous collections", you wouldn't have been able to do that.
The entire point of the background invention of Primaris was to not invalidate old Marines for all the people that like their old Marines. It literally serves no other purpose.
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
I disagree with them being clunky, in my opinion, they're much better looking then old marines.
Thing about old Marines is they're designed to be cross compatable with most older kits. this is, largely a good thing and makes marines pretty damn customizable, but at the same time it did limit what they could do with them. I suspect Primaris Marines where intended, in part to allow them to essentially "reboot" their entire approuch to marines and revamp the look with modern mini design techniques, etc.
by not just saying "yes they're new tac marines" though GW enables those who value the old modular marines to keep using them.
My only problem with the Primaris lore is that it gives a lore justification for never giving my tacticals two wounds. I love my tacticals and use 30 of them in every game I play. I just wish they could survive more than one turn of shooting.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
I disagree with them being clunky, in my opinion, they're much better looking then old marines.
Thing about old Marines is they're designed to be cross compatable with most older kits. this is, largely a good thing and makes marines pretty damn customizable, but at the same time it did limit what they could do with them. I suspect Primaris Marines where intended, in part to allow them to essentially "reboot" their entire approuch to marines and revamp the look with modern mini design techniques, etc.
by not just saying "yes they're new tac marines" though GW enables those who value the old modular marines to keep using them.
Nothing would stop older models being used. Old terminators and old metal dreadnoughts are used with no problem.
BaconCatBug wrote: Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.
But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.
This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.
On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.
GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.
Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.
It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.
It's a bit of a weird plot point when Primaris have their own Inner Circle that a Chaplain made. Apparently he needed Azraels permission to get them into the Inner Circle but not to create a new Circle. (At least that's how I remember War of Secrets ending, hopefully I'm wrong.)
As for the rules I was very interested then I remembered that DA characters can't use bikes outside of Legends and stopped caring again.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.
That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).
Blastaar wrote:Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
As others have said, no, it's not.
We're explicitly told and shown that Chapters have the capability to create their own Primaris independently. The Ultramarines (Brother Pollandus), the Blood Ravens (explained in the WD short they got that they would be given their own Primaris-making tech), and the Emperor's Spears, in their eponymous book.
How else would a Chapter like the Spears, who are nearly completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium, and only received the second-hand news of Guilliman's return and their own tech to make Primaris Marines, be able to make Primaris Marines if they relied on the process being done from outside the Chapter? Hell, we literally watch them, in that same book, turn a Marine into a Primaris without needing to go back to Mars or any AdMech base.
Further reinforcing the point that most people's problems and hatred of Primaris lore actually comes from a lack of information, and an unwillingness to listen/expose themselves to lore that might correct themselves. Which is fine, we shouldn't expect people to read every single snippet of lore that comes out, because not everyone cares, and that's 100% fine. But claiming false stuff, in the face of lots of evidence to the contrary? It's more than a little frustrating.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.
That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).
I'd say they'll be around until the molds break. No reason to stop re-supplying your stores with stuff that gets bought.
Blastaar wrote:Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
As others have said, no, it's not.
We're explicitly told and shown that Chapters have the capability to create their own Primaris independently. The Ultramarines (Brother Pollandus), the Blood Ravens (explained in the WD short they got that they would be given their own Primaris-making tech), and the Emperor's Spears, in their eponymous book.
How else would a Chapter like the Spears, who are nearly completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium, and only received the second-hand news of Guilliman's return and their own tech to make Primaris Marines, be able to make Primaris Marines if they relied on the process being done from outside the Chapter? Hell, we literally watch them, in that same book, turn a Marine into a Primaris without needing to go back to Mars or any AdMech base.
Further reinforcing the point that most people's problems and hatred of Primaris lore actually comes from a lack of information, and an unwillingness to listen/expose themselves to lore that might correct themselves. Which is fine, we shouldn't expect people to read every single snippet of lore that comes out, because not everyone cares, and that's 100% fine. But claiming false stuff, in the face of lots of evidence to the contrary? It's more than a little frustrating.
Yep. Devastation of Baal has Roboute hand the DA a pile of Primaris Transformation Pods [not the official term] and leave.
Its completely clear that they can just toss anyone they pick into the pods and tadah... Primaris!
Blastaar wrote:Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.
As others have said, no, it's not.
We're explicitly told and shown that Chapters have the capability to create their own Primaris independently. The Ultramarines (Brother Pollandus), the Blood Ravens (explained in the WD short they got that they would be given their own Primaris-making tech), and the Emperor's Spears, in their eponymous book.
How else would a Chapter like the Spears, who are nearly completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium, and only received the second-hand news of Guilliman's return and their own tech to make Primaris Marines, be able to make Primaris Marines if they relied on the process being done from outside the Chapter? Hell, we literally watch them, in that same book, turn a Marine into a Primaris without needing to go back to Mars or any AdMech base.
Further reinforcing the point that most people's problems and hatred of Primaris lore actually comes from a lack of information, and an unwillingness to listen/expose themselves to lore that might correct themselves. Which is fine, we shouldn't expect people to read every single snippet of lore that comes out, because not everyone cares, and that's 100% fine. But claiming false stuff, in the face of lots of evidence to the contrary? It's more than a little frustrating.
Clearly Cawl hand crafts every single Primaris marine
An Actual Englishman wrote: Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.
These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.
I am personally super psyched about trying these new rules.
1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.
This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?
For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.
In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.
These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.
Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.
Sort of, but not really. Duty Eternal takes the cake, but then mostly because of Levis. Tremor Shells and Transhuman stand out, character dreads, stacking WL traits, etc.
1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.
This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?
For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.
In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.
These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.
Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.
I don't see it. Salamanders get votlw+, all codex chapters can boost chaplains but only wb can boost dark apostles, loyalist astartes are apparently the only astartes with transhuman physiology etc. I think you're reading a bit much into it.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
I disagree with them being clunky, in my opinion, they're much better looking then old marines.
Thing about old Marines is they're designed to be cross compatable with most older kits. this is, largely a good thing and makes marines pretty damn customizable, but at the same time it did limit what they could do with them. I suspect Primaris Marines where intended, in part to allow them to essentially "reboot" their entire approuch to marines and revamp the look with modern mini design techniques, etc.
by not just saying "yes they're new tac marines" though GW enables those who value the old modular marines to keep using them.
Nothing would stop older models being used. Old terminators and old metal dreadnoughts are used with no problem.
yes but this way I can still BUY the old stuff, if I want to kitbash a Marine Leuitenant with jump pack, stomr shield, sword etc, I can still buy all the various kits etc. not saying it's their only reason, but GW could well be using Primaris Marines to double dip.
1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.
This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?
For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.
In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.
These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.
Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.
I don't see it. Salamanders get votlw+, all codex chapters can boost chaplains but only wb can boost dark apostles, loyalist astartes are apparently the only astartes with transhuman physiology etc. I think you're reading a bit much into it.
How am I reading to much into it? It is literally the same weapon under ideal conditions with a 10 man intercessor limitation compared to a 20 man rubric and 10 man terminator limitation. The weaker strat costs more...Transhuman cost 2 CP to be good against certain weapons and useless vs the slaneesh stratagem that give you FNP which makes you more durable against everything. The main premise is chaos stratagems are seeming to cost less and do more.
1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.
This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?
For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.
In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.
These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.
Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.
Sort of, but not really. Duty Eternal takes the cake, but then mostly because of Levis. Tremor Shells and Transhuman stand out, character dreads, stacking WL traits, etc.
Chaos don't even have thunderfire cannons. How is that relevant? Chaos can make any infantry unit shoot twice if slaneesh affecting massive units - marines can make a thunderfire shoot twice. Again - advantage chaos. Plus they have an offensively oriented Dread strat that lets you shoot twice at the closest target. I assure you the half damage loses out against duty eternal if 2 dreads one loyal and 1 heretic got into a 1v1 brawl because you always round up. 5's still do 3 and 3's still do 2 damage so you aren't always getting half - but you are always getting double the shots.
Lets just see here TS can make a 350 point term squad shoot twice - can then make 380 point combi plas shoot twice and shoot twice with a hellbrute. Compared to a marines player which can at most make a TFC and Intercessors squad shot twice - the chaos player is getting WAY more out of those stratagems. Tremor shell is also useless vs fly targets - useless vs vehicals - useless if your opponent doesn't even need to move. Not really helpful if your main threat is eldar shinning spears or custodian jetbikes or an imperial knight.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.
That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).
'All Space Marines have crossed the Rubicon! Now the codex will be Primaris only. But don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Marine armies, using the Legends rules!'.
It'll be that easy, and it's inevitable. When even the fluff is pointing towards it, with Primaris being accepted by previously-reluctant chapters and taking on their chapter traits (eg geneseed flaws), I don't see how you could infer that old Marines will be around forever. They might keep the molds going and support them with Legends rules, but at this point it's clear that Primaris are where GW is headed.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.
That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).
'All Space Marines have crossed the Rubicon! Now the codex will be Primaris only. But don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Marine armies, using the Legends rules!'.
It'll be that easy, and it's inevitable. When even the fluff is pointing towards it, with Primaris being accepted by previously-reluctant chapters and taking on their chapter traits (eg geneseed flaws), I don't see how you could infer that old Marines will be around forever. They might keep the molds going and support them with Legends rules, but at this point it's clear that Primaris are where GW is headed.
I doubt it'll happen. remember, old marines still outsell some entire xenos factions. GW is, first and foremost about making money, they have to be, they have shareholders to respond to.
There's no reason to retire old Marines while they're still a money making army. Before anyone comes up and screams about Bretonnia or Tomb Kings being proof GW will squat things I'm pretty sure tomb kings and bretonnia where two of the least popular armies at the time.
That's the fundamental issue though. If I say, correctly, that old marines are being replaced by Primaris - ignorant people scream and shout and say "NUH UH, THEY STILL EXIST!", as if I am stating GW is going to terminate the classic marine line in the next year and erase their existence from codices. No one has ever said that, not now, and not two years ago.
The people opposing that reality aren't responding to what people are saying, but disregarding the reality of the future of classic marines.
1) You won't get new classic marines outside of perhaps a few characters (even this is doubtful), and maybe some more Horus Heresy plastics - which could be a nice way to keep older players attracted to them.
2) Primaris units will outperform classic marines over time to the point where classic marines become less useful/common/purchased.
3) In a long time...and I mean 5-10-15 years classic marine kits will disappear from shelves.
4) These units will exist in codices for a long time, but they'll be out of stock, or discontinued, and will receive increasingly less support (particularly if the model lines are removed).
5) Marines make money, but classic marine kits make a lot less as they age and are upstaged by new kits, namely Primaris ones. GW would love to reduce SKUs, storage, shipping and factory space producing kits whenever possible. There is zero reason to sell an old dreadnought from 10-15 years ago if they're not selling as much as new fancy dreadnoughts, etc.
No one has ever said that GW is going to fire sale classic marines or hit the kill switch on the classic marine line all of a sudden. However this doesn't stop people from shouting and arguing as if someone did say that. Classic marines will slowly but surely be invalidated, and eventually discontinued. That's just a fact.
Elbows wrote: That's the fundamental issue though. If I say, correctly, that old marines are being replaced by Primaris - ignorant people scream and shout and say "NUH UH, THEY STILL EXIST!", as if I am stating GW is going to terminate the classic marine line in the next year and erase their existence from codices. No one has ever said that, not now, and not two years ago.
The people opposing that reality aren't responding to what people are saying, but disregarding the reality of the future of classic marines.
1) You won't get new classic marines outside of perhaps a few characters (even this is doubtful), and maybe some more Horus Heresy plastics - which could be a nice way to keep older players attracted to them.
2) Primaris units will outperform classic marines over time to the point where classic marines become less useful/common/purchased.
3) In a long time...and I mean 5-10-15 years classic marine kits will disappear from shelves.
4) These units will exist in codices for a long time, but they'll be out of stock, or discontinued, and will receive increasingly less support (particularly if the model lines are removed).
5) Marines make money, but classic marine kits make a lot less as they age and are upstaged by new kits, namely Primaris ones. GW would love to reduce SKUs, storage, shipping and factory space producing kits whenever possible. There is zero reason to sell an old dreadnought from 10-15 years ago if they're not selling as much as new fancy dreadnoughts, etc.
No one has ever said that GW is going to fire sale classic marines or hit the kill switch on the classic marine line all of a sudden. However this doesn't stop people from shouting and arguing as if someone did say that. Classic marines will slowly but surely be invalidated, and eventually discontinued. That's just a fact.
ohh sure, but that's a distant future thing, meanwhile some people acted like old marines being squatted was imminant etc. maybe they'll be phased out in 15 years time but by then, I wonder how many of us will be playing 40k?
That's my point though - no one said that. No one argued that suddenly marines would disappear overnight. Is it smart to start building a classic marine army? Probably not, unless you're comfortable not getting any more releases and you're okay with the existing line. Would I suggest someone start a classic marine army? Nope.
I never once saw anyone say it was going to happen suddenly, just that the writing is obviously on the wall.
on the other hand not getting any more releases can be kind of an advantage, no need to worry about your army being half complete and then GW putting out a new version of kit X that really clashes with your old one apperance wise. my current SM army is an all primaris army, but yeah I could see advantages to focusing on old skool marines right now
I concur, but not for a new player unless they're made very aware of what they're getting into. If anything buying up old marines could be very smart as they become cheaper on the used market, etc. Likewise, if you want to play retrohammer or oldhammer, all of that stuff is still useful/viable.
A lot of people (not myself) are hugely attracted to the idea of an ongoing "living" game, one where you get new releases etc. I don't personally care, I'd rather a better game - I don't need new stuff all the time, but it's a big deal to a lot of people. If anything marine players should be stoked...knowing they're just going to spoiled constantly with kits for the foreseeable future.
new stuff is a bit of a double edged sword to me, I like getting new stuff but it can be hard if the new stuff is coming out before you're able to finish assmbling and painting the old stuff.
but yeah the price of old marines vs primaris is important to keep in mind too.
Let's compare prices a moment, we'll assume a basic demi company of 3 boxes of troops, 1 fast attack unit and 1 heavy support unit. with 2 transports to ferry about the unit and a heavy tank.
So for Old Marines that's 3 tac squad boxes, 1 assault marine box, 1 devestator box 2 rhinos and a Land Raider.
all told Primaris are GENERALLY more expensive by about 10-20 bucks more. that said, hellblasters are actually a better deal then devestators when you consider that hellblasters are 10 to a box and devestators are 5 to a box.
So.. totaling these lists up
Old Marines Demi Company: 400 USDs
Primaris Demi-Company: 510 USDs
so yeah, going with a old marines list saves you about 100 bucks. (although this reduces to about 60 if you decide to demand a second devestator box to make up for hellblasters being 10 to a box)
so the savings are there. partiuclarly with regards to tanks. as rhino base chassis tanks are, right now at least, cheaper.
course given the new sisters stuff I'd not be suprised to see a price increase on the rhino and it's cousins very soon
1 CP. shoot double with a unit of SOCT or Rubrics.
This is great btw cause I play TS...are we noticing a pattern here though? Choas gets weaker base rules and better stratagems?
For example Rapid fire cost 2 CP with a max 10 man squad and this cost 1 CP for a max 20 man squad. Plus it's only for intercessors.
In effect you are paying 2CP for 20 shots with marines and 1cp for 40 shots for TS. Plus it can be used on Rubric or SOCT.
These units literally fire the same weapon under ideal circumstances. str 4 ap -2.
Again. Not complaining. Just pointing out the armies have different philosophys in game. Marines have better base rules - Choas has better stratagems.
Remember though, the new TS double fire strat comes with the limitation that you cannot use it if you moved.
Probably most potent with pre-game infiltrated Rubrics, but you wouldn’t be able to use it on SOCT after deep-strike and your opponent measuring from your Rubrics, forcing them to move to shoot (a worthwhile target) can also prevent the strat.
I doubt it'll happen. remember, old marines still outsell some entire xenos factions. GW is, first and foremost about making money, they have to be, they have shareholders to respond to.
There's no reason to retire old Marines while they're still a money making army. Before anyone comes up and screams about Bretonnia or Tomb Kings being proof GW will squat things I'm pretty sure tomb kings and bretonnia where two of the least popular armies at the time.
Can you provide those stats that show which xenos factions old marines sell more than? Can you also share your stats on old marines sales generally? Interested to know where you got this information, I'm sure you wouldn't just make something up that you claim with such conviction.
On topic - DA look very, very strong. Their range buff alone is insane. The only limiting factor will be how many stratagems and abilities are tied to Deathwing or Ravenwing.
Elbows wrote: If anything marine players should be stoked...knowing they're just going to spoiled constantly with kits for the foreseeable future.
And by forseeable future you mean until GW no longer makes 40k.
This.
I mean, there's a reason GW has both in the past and in the present spread out the Power-Armour love with separate books (whether you label them "Codex" or "Supplement" is largely irrelevant, aside from the "supplement" version forcing people to buy a second book).
If 6 out of 10 (randomly made up number) players play Marines, 6 out of 10 books / army releases need to be marines. You cannot service 6 out 10 players with only 1 out of 10 books / army releases, just because in the background the thing those 6 out of 10 players play is one faction in-universe. It still needs to be 6 factions on the sale/logistic side of things to meet the demand as best as it can.
Yeah, people have complained a lot about the PA releases "Why did you put my stuff in an SM book !?!"
But in the end it was the correct thing to do. Without this format we would never see so much attention to NPC factions. By releasing every npc faction supplement together with a marine supplement, it allows them to keep things going for everyone without it being a commercial suicide.
Spoletta wrote: Yeah, people have complained a lot about the PA releases "Why did you put my stuff in an SM book !?!"
But in the end it was the correct thing to do. Without this format we would never see so much attention to NPC factions. By releasing every npc faction supplement together with a marine supplement, it allows them to keep things going for everyone without it being a commercial suicide.
yeah I mean when the alternative is "A supplement just isn't worth it for Codex: low selling army"
Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.
It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.
So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.
But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.
It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.
So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.
But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
In xenos world the squigoth is great, boyz are 6ppm and the kff is covering the whole ork horde.
Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.
It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.
So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.
But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
In xenos world the squigoth is great, boyz are 6ppm and the kff is covering the whole ork horde.
in fairness Xenos is faaar from the only person who hears something about an army he doesn't play, and hyperboles it into the stratosphere.
BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.
That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).
Of course by the the 2030 they will probably cost more points than primaris do seeing how GW is nerffing them in relation to primaris. So while they might be legal you would have to be crazy to take them.
Jidmah wrote: I wonder if could train a neuronal net to create these threads automatically whenever any book is released...
There are certainly a fair few posters I think could be easily replicated with existing AIs. Any time a book gets released, just have it make an angry post about how there are copy errors, the book is better than GK, the book is better than orks, and the book is better than blood angels.
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BaconCatBug wrote: To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.
But...most Space Marine stuff had all the options they had access to in the kits...And they JUST, like JUST NOW released new CSM and SOB boxes with upgrades and gak identical to old marines.
TBH I've always ascribed the monoloadout strategy for primaris to making them more newbie-friendly. You have no idea how many times I've had to explain to a new player that he could not have 3 guys in his tactical squad with the cool melee weapons from the box.
Missed this thread completely, shame.So it starts with Xeno claiming that DA are the new super marines, and his UM are crap....again? lol
As a DA player, I'm happy we got buffs, but these are in no way a point and click super boost for DA. there is a lot of dichotomy in the doctrines. Ravenwing and Deathwing don't want to be in Devastator Doctrine (outside maybe a Landspeeder themed force). You're going to want -1AP on bike bolters, stormbolters, even plasma talons (no 6+ save for you), more than you'll want a little extra range.
The new RW and DW WTs, relics etc are really nice though, and I can see why they got boosted. It's actually a very genuine smart play by GW, neither RW or DW benefit from the base doctrine or super doctrine, so having these additional benefits really help (although you do need to spend CP to do so, a downside to 2 forces that don't get a lot of CP).
DA will be good, but they will require more finesse, knowing when to rotate through the doctrines (as it should be for all chapters...not the auto stay in Devastator all game BS, terrible design). There are some builds that will benefit from just being in Dev doctrine the whole game (the Greenwing gunline), but those won't do well in most games I feel as they haven't been doing great before. Aggressors with extra 3"? No thanks, I'd rather get -1AP on those shots, far more important.
As for the 6" Chaplain that makes UM extinct (lol, ridiculous), have people (well, one person) already forgot about Eliminators and Ravenguard? Rely on character auras at your own peril.
What I find most curious about the whole thing honestly is the fact that GW previewed the primaris integration into the DW and RW, and we haven't seen any kind of interaction in these rules. I figured the DW would get some kind of synergy with the Infiltrator units.
Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.
It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.
So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.
But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
Are you really so obtuse as to think I was trying to mislead anyone? I was making a point that CSM can fire twice with more units and better units. I play CSM. I know the stratagems limitations. Here you are again targeting me with negative comments because you have nothing better to do with your time. My comment had nothing to do with which faction has better dreads. In fact I even point out the marine unit often has better base rules...Holy crap. You are basically trolling at this point.
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bullyboy wrote: Missed this thread completely, shame.So it starts with Xeno claiming that DA are the new super marines, and his UM are crap....again? lol
As a DA player, I'm happy we got buffs, but these are in no way a point and click super boost for DA. there is a lot of dichotomy in the doctrines. Ravenwing and Deathwing don't want to be in Devastator Doctrine (outside maybe a Landspeeder themed force). You're going to want -1AP on bike bolters, stormbolters, even plasma talons (no 6+ save for you), more than you'll want a little extra range.
The new RW and DW WTs, relics etc are really nice though, and I can see why they got boosted. It's actually a very genuine smart play by GW, neither RW or DW benefit from the base doctrine or super doctrine, so having these additional benefits really help (although you do need to spend CP to do so, a downside to 2 forces that don't get a lot of CP).
DA will be good, but they will require more finesse, knowing when to rotate through the doctrines (as it should be for all chapters...not the auto stay in Devastator all game BS, terrible design). There are some builds that will benefit from just being in Dev doctrine the whole game (the Greenwing gunline), but those won't do well in most games I feel as they haven't been doing great before. Aggressors with extra 3"? No thanks, I'd rather get -1AP on those shots, far more important.
As for the 6" Chaplain that makes UM extinct (lol, ridiculous), have people (well, one person) already forgot about Eliminators and Ravenguard? Rely on character auras at your own peril.
Ultras don't even win 50% of their games in competitive. They are crap compared to top marine factions. For the record. A chaplain dread might as well be considered immortal to sniper weapons that arent RG. Plus DA eliminators will outrange the RG snipers and if they can shoot at a chappy/chappy dread(assuming it gets access to litanies). They will just get blown up by intercessors with SBR. The ignore LOS shot with eliminators is useless in the tactical doctrine. AP-1 ignores cover 1 damage and doesn't even do mortals?
DA can switch units to tactical doctrine on demand. So they can move and shoot double taps at 18" at AP -1 with aggressors while the rest of their army remains in dev doctrine if they so desire. Ultras already been extinct dude. Not only do they have less useful abiltiies than DA. DA are better at the things Ultras excell at. It is pathetic.
Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.
It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.
So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.
But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
Are you really so obtuse as to think I was trying to mislead anyone? I was making a point that CSM can fire twice with more units and better units. I play CSM. I know the stratagems limitations. Here you are again targeting me with negative comments because you have nothing better to do with your time. My comment had nothing to do with which faction has better dreads. In fact I even point out the marine unit often has better base rules...Holy crap. You are basically trolling at this point.
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bullyboy wrote: Missed this thread completely, shame.So it starts with Xeno claiming that DA are the new super marines, and his UM are crap....again? lol
As a DA player, I'm happy we got buffs, but these are in no way a point and click super boost for DA. there is a lot of dichotomy in the doctrines. Ravenwing and Deathwing don't want to be in Devastator Doctrine (outside maybe a Landspeeder themed force). You're going to want -1AP on bike bolters, stormbolters, even plasma talons (no 6+ save for you), more than you'll want a little extra range.
The new RW and DW WTs, relics etc are really nice though, and I can see why they got boosted. It's actually a very genuine smart play by GW, neither RW or DW benefit from the base doctrine or super doctrine, so having these additional benefits really help (although you do need to spend CP to do so, a downside to 2 forces that don't get a lot of CP).
DA will be good, but they will require more finesse, knowing when to rotate through the doctrines (as it should be for all chapters...not the auto stay in Devastator all game BS, terrible design). There are some builds that will benefit from just being in Dev doctrine the whole game (the Greenwing gunline), but those won't do well in most games I feel as they haven't been doing great before. Aggressors with extra 3"? No thanks, I'd rather get -1AP on those shots, far more important.
As for the 6" Chaplain that makes UM extinct (lol, ridiculous), have people (well, one person) already forgot about Eliminators and Ravenguard? Rely on character auras at your own peril.
Ultras don't even win 50% of their games in competitive. They are crap compared to top marine factions. For the record. A chaplain dread might as well be considered immortal to sniper weapons that arent RG. Plus DA eliminators will outrange the RG snipers and if they can shoot at a chappy/chappy dread(assuming it gets access to litanies). They will just get blown up by intercessors with SBR. The ignore LOS shot with eliminators is useless in the tactical doctrine. AP-1 ignores cover 1 damage and doesn't even do mortals?
DA can switch units to tactical doctrine on demand. So they can move and shoot double taps at 18" at AP -1 with aggressors while the rest of their army remains in dev doctrine if they so desire. Ultras already been extinct dude. Not only do they have less useful abiltiies than DA. DA are better at the things Ultras excell at. It is pathetic.
I never said you were misleading people, I said you were wrong. Learn the difference.
Strategems scale up in utility as there used on better units. Duty eternal is good on a box dread but strong as feth on something already as durable as a leviathan. Fire frenzy by comparison can only be used on hellbrutes, which are an only ok shooting unit. So fire frenzy is definitely not better or even nearly as good as duty eternal.
Y'know at this point you have enough fights going on so I'm going to back off as it's starting to feel like arguing with you is just piling on. Good luck arguing with half the forum.
Can someone confirm if the following is correct (based on the rumoured/leaked stratagems) please?
Deathwing Knights are 350 pts for 10 models with a 2+, 3++ and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds if Lazarus is nearby. They can Deep Strike up to 6" away with a rerollable charge if Sammael is used to summon them with the 2 CP stratagem. Their damage output is very high in CQC. If they somehow fail the charge (88.44% chance of making it), they can get -1 to wound AND stack Transhuman Physiology. A KNIGHT will be wounding them on 5s or 6s and they get their 3++. If Sammael isn't used/is somehow killed any Ravenwing unit can summon them in. The cost to summon them is 2CP. The costs for the -1 to wound and Transuman are 1CP and 2CP respectively (worst case, if they fail that charge (11.56%)).
If so these seem really, really un-fun to play against.
Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally. The former restricts wounding to natural rolls, while the latter goes against weapon strength. A weapon that wounds on a 3, but rolls a 4 in this scenario would still wound.
Realistically, it would only impact S3 and S4 weapons (pushing them to needing 6s instead of 5s and 5s instead of 4s respectively).
Eh, there's plenty of cases where spending two HQ slots, a 350-point unit, and a detachment's worth of CPs would lead to some degenerate comboes. It's one of those things that look horrendous on paper but isn't going to go anywhere because there's too many moving parts.
Ultras don't even win 50% of their games in competitive. They are crap compared to top marine factions.
*sigh* I told you in the other thread data is finicky. So I made this. These are players who used UM August through December with their win rates, the number of games they played as UM in that period, and the number of games they played last year.
The red line signifies the 50% WR. As you will see there is more experience to the left of that red line. Most people played UM once in this time period. More people who played them frequently are found to the left as well. The same dynamic applies to Iron Hands (and White Scars) even though IH has more players "to the left".
Spoiler:
And here are Iron Hands (or lists containing them):
Spoiler:
So you can see one UM player all the way to the right who played them twice during that period and clearly did abysmally. I won't name the player.
First tournament : 32 players and 3 losses. He did not attend the second day for rounds 4 and 5.
Opponents:
- Orks with Boyz, Smasha Guns, Gretchin, and 2 Dakkajets.
- AM with 3 TCs, 60 IS with PG & AC, 3 Hellhounds, tons of mortars, and a Smash Captain
and...(LOL)
- Orks with a list that literally only says STOMPA
He didn't bring a terrible list, but he brought a list that has no answer to armor and as really soft to D2 weapons.
WOW! Ok now that's a much more competitive list AND he stuck it out for all the games. What did he play?
Round 1 (loss) 3 Discolords
3x5 CSM
Despoiler, Double Thermal
2 Wardogs, AC
Sorcerer
3x7 Bezerkers
3 Rhinos
Those invictors are useless for a forward position against discos. The snipers barely useful, too. Levis will struggle to keep a knight in range that can outrange them with nothing to scare the knight out of position.
Round 2 (Win!):
6 Armigers, AC 3 CC 50 IS
4x5 Rangers, Arquebus
2x20 Infiltrators
This is where Levis get to shine where the opponent carries no weapons able to crack a T8 2+ reliably.
Round 3 (Loss):
Castelln
2 Crusaders
Enough said.
Round 4 (Draw):
UM with Bobby and lots of dreads
Round 5 (Draw):
Stompa, Smashas, Dakkajets
Wait...UM player getting beat by Stompas...is this you? I kid...I kid...
Sterling191 wrote: Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally.
People seem to think it stacks. Probably needs a FAQ if it doesn't.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Eh, there's plenty of cases where spending two HQ slots, a 350-point unit, and a detachment's worth of CPs would lead to some degenerate comboes. It's one of those things that look horrendous on paper but isn't going to go anywhere because there's too many moving parts.
What do you mean by 'isn't going anywhere'? This combo is incredibly easy to pull off and Sammael is a decent unit anyway. Keep Lazarus at home if you like - a 2+, 3++ only wounding on 5s or 6s is pretty savage regardless of all the other shenanigans. Multiple ways to make Ravenwing units move an incredible distance. No real way to counter. 2 moving parts is not many.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone confirm if the following is correct (based on the rumoured/leaked stratagems) please?
Deathwing Knights are 350 pts for 10 models with a 2+, 3++ and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds if Lazarus is nearby. They can Deep Strike up to 6" away with a rerollable charge if Sammael is used to summon them with the 2 CP stratagem. Their damage output is very high in CQC. If they somehow fail the charge (88.44% chance of making it), they can get -1 to wound AND stack Transhuman Physiology. A KNIGHT will be wounding them on 5s or 6s and they get their 3++. If Sammael isn't used/is somehow killed any Ravenwing unit can summon them in. The cost to summon them is 2CP. The costs for the -1 to wound and Transuman are 1CP and 2CP respectively (worst case, if they fail that charge (11.56%)).
If so these seem really, really un-fun to play against.
I actually think the opposite, this is an extremely powerful strategy with decent point and CP investment with several moving parts that leave them open for counter play. It will be a very good challenge to test your list against. Here are several things that immediately come to my mind when facing this combo:
- Extremely reliable deep strike CC is nothing new, the exception here is the unit is significantly tougher but significantly worse mobility (no fly, 5’’ movement) without RW enabler. So screening is expected to take the initial brunt of the charge as usual
- RW unit is required to enable the combo, but bikes can be shot at, movement blocked or tremor shelled, speeders are ridiculously fragile and don’t contributed much damage when they are not supporting DW teleport. And if you’re sling shooting Sammael into the frontline, you’re probably losing Sammael. Keep in mind the teleport strat requires the RW to not advance so it’s not like you’re guaranteed to get your RW units to where you want all the time, yes Full Throttle should be taken into consideration, that's another 1CP btw, if you're loaded in DW and RW units you're not exactly swimming in CP - How much damage do DW knights actually do? Really? I’m not familiar with their stats but I doubt they are throwing out 6 attacks per models, can they actually reliably clean a screen of horrors or plaguebearers? If they can’t they are just begging to be surrounded and locked down, in which case they will have to rely on another teleport to bail them out, which means even more RW unit investment. Not trivial
- DW knights need to be on the table first turn. So they can get tremor shelled and now their charge becomes basically impossible.
Sterling191 wrote: Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally.
People seem to think it stacks. Probably needs a FAQ if it doesn't.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Eh, there's plenty of cases where spending two HQ slots, a 350-point unit, and a detachment's worth of CPs would lead to some degenerate comboes. It's one of those things that look horrendous on paper but isn't going to go anywhere because there's too many moving parts.
What do you mean by 'isn't going anywhere'? This combo is incredibly easy to pull off and Sammael is a decent unit anyway. Keep Lazarus at home if you like - a 2+, 3++ only wounding on 5s or 6s is pretty savage regardless of all the other shenanigans. Multiple ways to make Ravenwing units move an incredible distance. No real way to counter. 2 moving parts is not many.
Without the 5+++ against MWs you're really vulnerable to smite-spam and the like. You're also limited by the fact that the enemy knows exactly where you could be showing up with the combo, allowing the enemy to react appropriately,
Don't get me wrong, it'll hurt pretty badly if they manage to connect, but there's hardly "no real way to counter". It's a more expensive Letterbomb with much better durability but which is more predictable.
You might actually be right on them seeing play on second thought though, I'll admit that.
I should probably be clearer, I think there is little to no counterplay for many factions. Yes Tremorshells will help. Wish I had em, or something like em.
A screen will help but all this happens turn 2. Plenty of time to put a dent in a screen.
I don't think the combo is easy to telegraph either, there are so many units that can bring in the DW Knights I don't think it can really be stopped that easily at all.
For me the primary limiting factor is that "all units must be wholly within 6" of [the summoning unit] or they are destroyed". Perhaps it'll be difficult to get a full 10 in the available space?
I don't know though, it just feels like the only weakness of DW Knights (their mobility and ability to get into combat/deal damage) has been completely mitigated by this combo. So either the points are no longer appropriate or the stratagem isn't.
This isn't even an expensive combo. The largest investment is the CP cost probably. Bear in mind the stratagems that increase survivability might not even be required (depending on what they get in combat with).
I don't know, just thinking aloud really. I'm not saying this is broken or is going to wreck the meta or anything, it's just for me, personally, it feels really obnoxious and boring.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
Meanwhile it reinforces those subfactions that can.
Again.
Mainline csm at this point should probably just be renamed to codex alpha legion (well technically the scourged and any counter fire dropp units stratagem faction)
But still
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights
Grot screens really don't last long in the current marine meta, especially with TFC and the crapload of dakka that can be put out by most marine lists. By T2, most of the screens are mostly gone, or with gaps that the DWK can exploit.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights
I don't have endless Grots. My Grots are required to keep those expensive Lootas and SSAGs alive by sacrificing themselves. I also think you're massively undervaluing the ability to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone. Not gonna win many games if my Grots never leave my deployment and get to objectives. Lootas do not effectively kill DW Knights - did I not mention the survivability stratagems already? With those stratagems the Double Shooting, more Dakka Lootas kill 2 models if they're not in cover. If they're in cover it's a single model dead.
Also, I might prefer to take other units than Grots or Lootas. What then?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can someone confirm if the following is correct (based on the rumoured/leaked stratagems) please?
Deathwing Knights are 350 pts for 10 models with a 2+, 3++ and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds if Lazarus is nearby. They can Deep Strike up to 6" away with a rerollable charge if Sammael is used to summon them with the 2 CP stratagem. Their damage output is very high in CQC. If they somehow fail the charge (88.44% chance of making it), they can get -1 to wound AND stack Transhuman Physiology. A KNIGHT will be wounding them on 5s or 6s and they get their 3++. If Sammael isn't used/is somehow killed any Ravenwing unit can summon them in. The cost to summon them is 2CP. The costs for the -1 to wound and Transuman are 1CP and 2CP respectively (worst case, if they fail that charge (11.56%)).
If so these seem really, really un-fun to play against.
5 CPs mind you is a LOT of points for Marines. if he blows his charge and uses those two strats he's proably used up most if not all of his CPs by then. So it's potent but it's really a pretty major use of your resources. it's not a trick you can pull on the cheap
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights
I don't have endless Grots. My Grots are required to keep those expensive Lootas and SSAGs alive by sacrificing themselves. I also think you're massively undervaluing the ability to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone. Not gonna win many games if my Grots never leave my deployment and get to objectives. Lootas do not effectively kill DW Knights - did I not mention the survivability stratagems already? With those stratagems the Double Shooting, more Dakka Lootas kill 2 models if they're not in cover. If they're in cover it's a single model dead.
Also, I might prefer to take other units than Grots or Lootas. What then?
What does the IK player do, exactly?
Just double checking your math...
15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
5.19 failed saves out of cover
Now, you're spending a TON of resources to do it, but you can body half the squad with Lootas. Halve that if they get cover, but still.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights
I don't have endless Grots. My Grots are required to keep those expensive Lootas and SSAGs alive by sacrificing themselves. I also think you're massively undervaluing the ability to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone. Not gonna win many games if my Grots never leave my deployment and get to objectives. Lootas do not effectively kill DW Knights - did I not mention the survivability stratagems already? With those stratagems the Double Shooting, more Dakka Lootas kill 2 models if they're not in cover. If they're in cover it's a single model dead.
Also, I might prefer to take other units than Grots or Lootas. What then?
What does the IK player do, exactly?
Just double checking your math...
15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
5.19 failed saves out of cover
Now, you're spending a TON of resources to do it, but you can body half the squad with Lootas. Halve that if they get cover, but still.
15 lootas according to battlescibe turn out to be about 255 points vs the 350 points and 4 CPs for the terminators.
You'd be ignoring the 4 CP, minimum, to get the Loota squad to put out that output. 2 from Moar Dakka, 2 more from Showin off. Then to keep the lootas from disappearing to a stiff breeze, you'll need 30+ points and another CP for a Grot squad and Grot Wall.
15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
I'm sure Transhuman and the -1 to wound strat stacks as I said and my maths therefore is correct.
15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
I'm sure Transhuman and the -1 to wound strat stacks as I said and my maths therefore is correct.
Thanks for checking though.
Transhuman Physiology is unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail to wound.
-1 to-wound, assuming that's all it does, makes it so a weapon that normally wounds on a 3+ would wound on a 4+. Or, rather, it wounds on a 3+ on 1d6-1.
So, you have six results per die:
1-1=0: fails to wound
2-1=1: fails to wound
3-1=2: fails to wound
4-1=3: succeeds at wounding
5-1+4: succeeds at wounding
6-1+5: succeeds at wounding
BrianDavion wrote: 5 CPs mind you is a LOT of points for Marines. if he blows his charge and uses those two strats he's proably used up most if not all of his CPs by then. So it's potent but it's really a pretty major use of your resources. it's not a trick you can pull on the cheap
The chance of him "blowing his charge" is around 10%. I wouldn't bank on it.
So it's a 2 CP investment, in reality (assuming the player uses this to charge and not just sit in the mid-field camping as an area denial tool).
15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
I'm sure Transhuman and the -1 to wound strat stacks as I said and my maths therefore is correct.
Thanks for checking though.
Transhuman Physiology is unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail to wound.
-1 to-wound, assuming that's all it does, makes it so a weapon that normally wounds on a 3+ would wound on a 4+. Or, rather, it wounds on a 3+ on 1d6-1.
So, you have six results per die:
1-1=0: fails to wound
2-1=1: fails to wound
3-1=2: fails to wound
4-1=3: succeeds at wounding
5-1+4: succeeds at wounding
6-1+5: succeeds at wounding
They overlap. Not stack.
We don't have the wording on this stratagem do we? From what I gather, people who have seen the book believe they stack. Until I see otherwise I'm taking their word. Unless you have other evidence?
5 CPs mind you is a LOT of points for Marines. if he blows his charge and uses those two strats he's proably used up most if not all of his CPs by then. So it's potent but it's really a pretty major use of your resources. it's not a trick you can pull on the cheap
Are we forgetting the 6" deepstrike? I feel like we're forgetting the 6" deepstrike.
This wasn't saying that your proposed strategy is a bad one, just that your math/assumptions were incorrect.
Lol in all seriousness I appreciate you sharing that pic of the stratagem - I hadn't seen the wording and agree it doesn't stack which is a massive relief in terms of how to play against it.
So what do I do if I don't take Lootas? E - or if they have cover?
10 terminators fully in cover while still within 6'' of optimal charge target? Not likely
You want to know what you do about a problem if you don't take the solution to a problem? You...still have the problem I guess? But what does that prove?
Marines have a LOT of tools to do a LOT of things, but they can't fit them all into a list. I mean, you're just as likely to see a DA gunline as you are a "death wing assault force" this is good as it means not every marine player is going to play a broken combo, and bad because if you know you're playing DA you might not be able to perpare for everything
OK, people getting real silly with the theoryhammer.
10 deathwing knights 350pts
Sammael on corvex (not the best mount, but you need the biker keyword) 140
Deathwing Ancient with Banner (has a chance to get where he needs to, unlike Lazarus and gives Knights 5+ FNP) 75 (with claws just for s+g)
So, you've invested 565pts in a one trick pony (which is not great since you have to get all 10 of those knights within 6" of Sammy...a larger RW bike unit would be better, but could be killed/tremor shelled), that can't even work until Turn 2 or 3.
It's so CP hungry and one dimensional that I have no clue why anyone outside of a knight player would worry.
I mean that is why theoryhammer has a place to give some idea of use and effectiveness while you should always reserve judgement until you actually use them or see them get used in real games. Theory is well and good but use is found on the table top and you see the theory from the reality can be different things.
I know that shouldn't be a revelation but sometimes you'd be surprised it can be.
If my DA friend would pull off that stunt, I'd probably high-five him for it. His Knights have been dead weight since the start of the edition.
Orks struggle with 2+/3++ units in general, the only real solution to them are mortal wounds. Luckily weird boyz are quite reliable at throwing those down. Outside of that, just feed those knights a unit per turn and move away from them, they'll struggle to make back their points.
Besides that, if there is a ravenwing unit close enough to drop deathwing knights, they might as well be ravenwing black knights and light up the target with weapons from the dark age.
BrianDavion wrote: theoryhammerers tend to assume unlimited CPs when crunching this stuff out I've found.
Unlimited CP, no LOS blocking terrain at all and every single model is forever in range for both ranged and melee.
Don't forget to completely ignore "not being able to plough an infinite number of points into a single unit", and that that unit will always been in range of all the available buffing characters in the army list.
Continuity wrote: 10 terminators fully in cover while still within 6'' of optimal charge target? Not likely
You want to know what you do about a problem if you don't take the solution to a problem? You...still have the problem I guess? But what does that prove?
This is some disingenuous arguing if ever I saw it.
DW Knights don't need to charge anything. They can be teleported into the mid table and sit there all game, winning it [the game] for the DA player. They are a massive threat to anything in CC. They are very tanky and can be plonked on a mid-game objective virtually risk free. Sammael on Corvex is taken anyway, but cheaper options exist if he's too expensive (and he's only suggested because he has the re-roll charges ability, but CP can be used for that anyway). He, and the other RW units are extremely mobile so can be virtually anywhere you need by Turn 2. There's also always the option of taking normal DW Termies and shooting said screen on arrival before charging the juicy targets behind. 40 Storm Bolter shots will kill 18-19 Grots. Take one or two models in the unit with TH and SS to soak up shots with the 3++.
You present Lootas and Grots as a solution - how many points and CP do I need to invest in this "solution"? How many Grots do you recommend to screen? Why hasn't the DA player destroyed/severely weakened the Grot Screen by T2? What happens if my Lootas can't draw LOS on the Knights? Why are the Knights dropping in an unfavourable position and not utilising the best part of the stratagem (they get to drop only 6" away from enemy units thus "normal" screening will be ineffective)?
I play Evil Sunz Orks so my Lootas don't reroll 1s to hit and they can't shoot twice. I did the maths for Bad Moonz Lootas because we always assume optimal conditions. And if your response is "just play Bad Moonz Lootas" you'll forgive me for telling DA (and all other Marine players) to "just play Iron Hands" if their particular sub faction is struggling.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Normal screening still works unless you leave a gap big enough behind your screen to squeeze 10 40mm bases in in a 6" radius.
How do you deal with Letterbombs, other Orks Da Jumping you, or Tzaangor bombs?
I kill them after they have dropped - the key difference between all of those units above and those we're discussing here is durability. The other difference is that those units above are all less likely to make the charge.
IIRC Letterbombs have something like a 97% chance of making an 8" charge (+1" to charges from Instrument, 3D6 from banner, reroll charges). It doesn't get much more stable than that.
Honestly, this is sounding more like the problem is, as pointed out above, that Orks struggle against 2+ save units and could do with more and/or better options to counter them. Various Imperium armies wouldn't struggle to deal with what is effectively 10 TH/SS Terminators, Chaos has a bunch of ways of countering them, Eldar has counters, and so on.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: IIRC Letterbombs have something like a 97% chance of making an 8" charge (+1" to charges from Instrument, 3D6 from banner, reroll charges). It doesn't get much more stable than that.
Honestly, this is sounding more like the problem is, as pointed out above, that Orks struggle against 2+ save units and could do with more and/or better options to counter them. Various Imperium armies wouldn't struggle to deal with what is effectively 10 TH/SS Terminators, Chaos has a bunch of ways of countering them, Eldar has counters, and so on.
Orks have plenty of ways to deal with that including sheer weight of attacks, which is the bane of all terminators.
If someone wants to stick to Evil Sunz then they shouldn't be taking Lootas and complaining about them.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: IIRC Letterbombs have something like a 97% chance of making an 8" charge (+1" to charges from Instrument, 3D6 from banner, reroll charges). It doesn't get much more stable than that.
Honestly, this is sounding more like the problem is, as pointed out above, that Orks struggle against 2+ save units and could do with more and/or better options to counter them. Various Imperium armies wouldn't struggle to deal with what is effectively 10 TH/SS Terminators, Chaos has a bunch of ways of countering them, Eldar has counters, and so on.
Orks have plenty of ways to deal with that including sheer weight of attacks, which is the bane of all terminators.
If someone wants to stick to Evil Sunz then they shouldn't be taking Lootas and complaining about them.
Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.
Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.
When you factor in pistols, big choppa, tankbuster bombs, etc you're likely looking at 4 - 140 points killed by a 210 point unit.
Continuity wrote: 10 terminators fully in cover while still within 6'' of optimal charge target? Not likely
You want to know what you do about a problem if you don't take the solution to a problem? You...still have the problem I guess? But what does that prove?
This is some disingenuous arguing if ever I saw it.
DW Knights don't need to charge anything. They can be teleported into the mid table and sit there all game, winning it [the game] for the DA player. They are a massive threat to anything in CC. They are very tanky and can be plonked on a mid-game objective virtually risk free. Sammael on Corvex is taken anyway, but cheaper options exist if he's too expensive (and he's only suggested because he has the re-roll charges ability, but CP can be used for that anyway). He, and the other RW units are extremely mobile so can be virtually anywhere you need by Turn 2. There's also always the option of taking normal DW Termies and shooting said screen on arrival before charging the juicy targets behind. 40 Storm Bolter shots will kill 18-19 Grots. Take one or two models in the unit with TH and SS to soak up shots with the 3++.
You present Lootas and Grots as a solution - how many points and CP do I need to invest in this "solution"? How many Grots do you recommend to screen? Why hasn't the DA player destroyed/severely weakened the Grot Screen by T2? What happens if my Lootas can't draw LOS on the Knights? Why are the Knights dropping in an unfavourable position and not utilising the best part of the stratagem (they get to drop only 6" away from enemy units thus "normal" screening will be ineffective)?
I play Evil Sunz Orks so my Lootas don't reroll 1s to hit and they can't shoot twice. I did the maths for Bad Moonz Lootas because we always assume optimal conditions. And if your response is "just play Bad Moonz Lootas" you'll forgive me for telling DA (and all other Marine players) to "just play Iron Hands" if their particular sub faction is struggling.
They do 'just play as iron hands' which is the problem ironically, although your comparison spans 2 codex and a supplement vs within the same book.
Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.
When you factor in pistols, big choppa, tankbuster bombs, etc you're likely looking at 4 - 140 points killed by a 210 point unit.
You two absolutely have to tell me the secret of how you manage to keep a unit of 30 boyz in your deployment zone unharmed after two shooting and assault phases. Anyone saying "hide out of LOS" has forfeited all his models and must gift them to the next ork player they meet.
2+ armor is zero problem for orks, we have tons of viable guns with decent AP now. Multi-wound models with high armor, toughness, invulnerable save and maybe even further layers of defense (FNP, half damage, character) are an issue because you can kill them with neither quantity nor quality.
If you indeed use the stratagem for wounding on 4+ only on them, I don't think there is anything but weird boyz or smashas in the ork codex that can efficiently do anything about them.
And let's not forget that the knights kill quite a number of orks back after losing getting charged, that flail is no joke.
Eh, 30 Boyz charging them (assuming 120 attacks for simplicity's sake) kill 3.333... of the Terminators on average. That still leaves 2/3 of the unit intact.
When you factor in pistols, big choppa, tankbuster bombs, etc you're likely looking at 4 - 140 points killed by a 210 point unit.
You two absolutely have to tell me the secret of how you manage to keep a unit of 30 boyz in your deployment zone unharmed after two shooting and assault phases. Anyone saying "hide out of LOS" has forfeited all his models and must gift them to the next ork player they meet.
2+ armor is zero problem for orks, we have tons of viable guns with decent AP now. Multi-wound models with high armor, toughness, invulnerable save and maybe even further layers of defense (FNP, half damage, character) are an issue because you can kill them with neither quantity nor quality.
If you indeed use the stratagem for wounding on 4+ only on them, I don't think there is anything but weird boyz or smashas in the ork codex that can efficiently do anything about them.
And let's not forget that the knights kill quite a number of orks back after losing getting charged, that flail is no joke.
Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.
Orks can't do nothing against marines. Just a squad of 10 intercessors hitting at -1 agaisnt a Da Jumped Ork Squad of 30 with rerrolls for nearly everything kills a good bunch of them.
Galas wrote: Orks can't do nothing against marines. Just a squad of 10 intercessors hitting at -1 agaisnt a Da Jumped Ork Squad of 30 with rerrolls for nearly everything kills a good bunch of them.
And what about this is different from before the supplements?
From the info I gathered around, the RW part of the DA is way stronger than the greenwing and DW. The RW warlord traits are great, especially the last one who give a 12 inch move before the beginning of the first turn (basically mean you can charge first turn with black knights). Some of the combo seems absurb to be fair - Talonmaster with the right relic and the first warlord trait hit at +1, with +12 inch range (32 inch 12 shot of autocanon) and gives an aura around him that gives the ability to move and shoot without malus for his heavy weapons.
Daedalus81 wrote: Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.
They're coming to you after all.
Also, smashas dont have a to wound roll.
Here we go again with the advice from a player who doesn't know the faction.
"Fluff out screens"?
"Boyz to the back"?
"Trade Guns"?
Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).
The problem, as well you know, is if the Ork player is firing his Smasha Guns against DW Knights that have dropped in his lines, he is not firing them at other, more valid and valuable targets.
If Orks had an answer to Marines we'd see them in the competitive meta. Instead, what we've seen is them virtually disappear (along with GSC) from the competitive meta. Given that virtually all of the DA guns will outrange the Ork weapons, I'm struggling to see how anything will be different here.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).
Agree with everything else, I'd just like to point out that a greenwing foot captain will never be anywhere near death wing knights.
The deathwing knights are good but the problem is they lack mobility and there's no way to redeploy them. If they get to a zone and smash a group of unit, after that they're basically a useless bunch (and a pretty expensive useless bunch).
So imo playing against them does not even require them to be killed, especially if your army does not have one big threat that the knights will take as a target..
An Actual Englishman wrote: Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).
Agree with everything else, I'd just like to point out that a greenwing foot captain will never be anywhere near death wing knights.
You're right. Unless something has gone horribly wrong for the Ork player/right for the DA player it's very, very unlikely.
Anyone else amused by the admission in today's pre-order WHC article that the latest PA has failed to include to the initial points cost for the new character?
WhiteDog wrote: The deathwing knights are good but the problem is they lack mobility and there's no way to redeploy them. If they get to a zone and smash a group of unit, after that they're basically a useless bunch (and a pretty expensive useless bunch).
So imo playing against them does not even require them to be killed, especially if your army does not have one big threat that the knights will take as a target..
Yea I think a squad of normal DW Termies might be a better option all things considered.
Alternatively the DA player will use the DW Knights to hold the midfield as a "can't touch this" threat.
Daedalus81 wrote: Fluff out screens, boys to the back, and trade guns.
They're coming to you after all.
Also, smashas dont have a to wound roll.
Here we go again with the advice from a player who doesn't know the faction.
"Fluff out screens"?
"Boyz to the back"?
"Trade Guns"?
Jid said that Smashas are one of the only counter to DW Knights that Orks possess. The other is Weirdboyz (unless they have that 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds).
The problem, as well you know, is if the Ork player is firing his Smasha Guns against DW Knights that have dropped in his lines, he is not firing them at other, more valid and valuable targets.
If Orks had an answer to Marines we'd see them in the competitive meta. Instead, what we've seen is them virtually disappear (along with GSC) from the competitive meta. Given that virtually all of the DA guns will outrange the Ork weapons, I'm struggling to see how anything will be different here.
Sure guys. It's not like I don't play against them weekly. Keep on with the pity party.
From the previews it seems that the designers came up with an update that that combines effectiveness, fluff and balance. As Bullyboy pointed out earlier, the choice of Doctrine in play will not be a mono. You are genuinely trading something off depending on your build and that how it should be. There look to be some decent combinations in the book and they are not "point and click." I think that we can consider the WD article back in September as somewhat disconnected from the design studio. I guess ebay will be flooded by DA players who raced out and bought Centurions based on the article (jk - I don't think that anybody did). For those saying that Primaris Deathwing are against the lore, no Dark Angels are born into the DW. All are screened. We see that in play in War of Secrets. I am excited by the attention to DW and RW in the update. That bodes well for the future.
We'll see how it all plays out on the table. The DA are certainly improved, but I don't see them as IH level bonkers. I am looking forward to having Land Speeders with a point again. I've been running a Sammael and 2xTalonmaster team as my core in the new SM2.0 meta. That team just got quite a bit better with Devastator Doctrine, to include the increased range in that Doctrine and the Warlord trait to negate moving penalties. Looks like Sammael will not be the Warlord anymore. Might even bring some normal Land Speeders along.
As an aside, my RW bikes dissolve against Lootas, and they are needed to pull off that DW bomb. The 6" deepstrike looks fun, but it will be situational as well as tricky to pull off.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: As an aside, my RW bikes dissolve against Lootas, and they are needed to pull off that DW bomb. The 6" deepstrike looks fun, but it will be situational as well as tricky to pull off.
Sammael can pull it off. Shouldn't be too hard to hide him from any threats for a turn before dropping the DW bomb. The combo might be situational but I think it's a stretch to claim it's tricky to pull off.
Well GMG has his review up ( https://youtu.be/ZwiV8xq7hNk ), and the leaks were missing a few minor details such as you can only use combined assault with ravenwing bike units, so no using land speeders to get past screens. The transhuman physiology aura is not an aura, it only applies to the warlord, which makes it somewhat less awesome. Deathwing got a stratagem that wasn't included in the leak (stand firm), where they can bump up their toughness by one, which is insane with fortress of shields, which gives the opponent a -1 to wound. So with Transhuman physiology they have ways to tank just about any kind of shots, go T-Human on high str (8+) attacks, Fortress on mid-strength (6+) attacks, or stand firm + fortress to make str 4 or less shots wound on sixes and str 5 wound on 5+. The bottom line is that with a 2+/3++, and the shenanigans you can pull with wound rolls, Deathwing knights are the games most durable terminators, at least while you have CP to spend.
Are the changes good enough to make Deathwing knights good, maybe, they have a solid delivery mechanism, with CP investment they are resistant to both mass small arms and big guns, and they have thunder hammers without a -1 to hit. The drawbacks are they do not have a reliable way past screens, they have a 5" movement, and no redeployment options. The biggest black mark is that they are CP hungry, I'd rather invest CP in offense as opposed to defense, because it's harder to snowball off of defense. So I think my preference will be to use my CP on Ravenwing because they have good offense and use the Deathwing for counter-punching. I also can't imagine Deathwing knights being super effective against Tau, or Eldar, Necrons, or any shoot and skedaddle style list. They will do work against marines though, who castle but don't have the mobility to move the castle away fast enough, and marines would have a hard time throwing enough bodies at the DWK to tarpit them.
In my experience the biggest downside of DW Knights is that they do not carry any guns, not even grenades. Unless they charge, they kill absolutely nothing, unlike Blightlords which keep riddling enemy units with 24" storm bolters even if they don't charge.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: As an aside, my RW bikes dissolve against Lootas, and they are needed to pull off that DW bomb. The 6" deepstrike looks fun, but it will be situational as well as tricky to pull off.
Sammael can pull it off. Shouldn't be too hard to hide him from any threats for a turn before dropping the DW bomb. The combo might be situational but I think it's a stretch to claim it's tricky to pull off.
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
Not Online!!! wrote: funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
Not Online!!! wrote: funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.
Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.
Not Online!!! wrote: funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.
Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.
Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.
the problem with strats it they're unevenly designed, some strats are things almost nesscary for a unit to work, (this was partiuclarly true with some of the strats in older books) other strats are very powerful and should eaither cost points, or be a "one time use ability" that folks are managing to spam. mono faction bonuses might help with that as if the most powerful army is a mono faction it means GW can plan around Guard having more CPs then custodes and making the strats power level reflect this.
Not Online!!! wrote: funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.
Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.
Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.
No I'm absolutely with you in this actually. Pointing Traits and Relics would make for much easier balance, surely. It's funny actually - some relics are "free" (because they don't replace anything) while others cost as much as the item they replace. It's very inconsistent.
I wouldn't mind it if GW limited access to stratagems more - expand the Vigilus model with specific detachments that can use those specific stratagems only. This seems like a great way to stop the most egregious combos and to allow some semblance of balance.
It's not a discussion for this thread, mind, I might make a specific topic around this if I get time.
Not Online!!! wrote: funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.
Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.
Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.
No I'm absolutely with you in this actually. Pointing Traits and Relics would make for much easier balance, surely. It's funny actually - some relics are "free" (because they don't replace anything) while others cost as much as the item they replace. It's very inconsistent.
which is why chainsword relics are some of the best marine weapon relics. they're free and actually pretty bad ass.
Not Online!!! wrote: funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?
You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.
Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.
Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.
No I'm absolutely with you in this actually. Pointing Traits and Relics would make for much easier balance, surely. It's funny actually - some relics are "free" (because they don't replace anything) while others cost as much as the item they replace. It's very inconsistent.
I wouldn't mind it if GW limited access to stratagems more - expand the Vigilus model with specific detachments that can use those specific stratagems only. This seems like a great way to stop the most egregious combos and to allow some semblance of balance.
It's not a discussion for this thread, mind, I might make a specific topic around this if I get time.
But it is ,indirectly the discrepancy of value and utility due to seemingly mid edition change of design concept and no propper communication between the Designers of various books has in the very least led to dubious releases and in the worst cases lead to massive spikes spread unfavourable amongst factions.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
The Genestealer Cults can certainly do it (different mechanism but functionally similar). As an Ork you have Da Jump with Evil Sunz and rerolls - 1st Turn "deep strike" charge goodness that I do not begrudge.
I've been running Deathwing squads because I like them - heck I even took fifteen Deathwing terminators to a recent tournament and I often have them in my pick-up games. Trust me - while the changes to bolters means that they can drop in and clear away Boyz with gunfire in the end they struggle against Orks - especially Lootas.
This stratagem is indeed a good thing and I am going to try it out. My point about DW Knights being stuck in no-man's land was saying that the Strat will help prevent that. Happy? We can actually agree on some points. We can go back and forth about whether it is "point and click." We could redefine what point and click means as our argument progresses. Probably not helpful.
The Strat as printed is certainly more nuanced that what was published in the September WD Dark Angels narrative mission where you just dropped in and could move D6 inches. The new Strat is closer to the old teleport homer that the Ravenwing had in previous editions. In fact, its pretty much the same (place the teleporting unit within 6 inches of the unit as long as it started on the board this turn). All that to say I am happy that the designers have gone with something fluffy and effective. Just how effective in practice we have yet to see.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!
All for it, otk turns, regardless if melee psy or shooting, are waaayyy to plentifull.
I'm sorry for digging this post, especially if there's already been an answer for this but I've got my hand on Ritual of the damned and not only there's no point value for Lazarus, but there's also no point value for the new Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition.
I've seen on warhammer community that they told us that Lazarus was 105 pts, but anybody have seen anywhere the value of that bolt carbine with special issue ammunition ?
Thanks in advance.
Callidus assassin on average drops 6.5 inches away. Also +x to charge rolls is functionally the same as deploying closer in most circumstances, which loads of armies have.
Galas wrote: So has the Chapter Tactic of DA (And GK) been improved like all the others for Space Marines or it is still the same?
DA Grim Resolve hasn't changed however it now effects all Dark Angels units. Tank gun lines like predators etc being able to get the captain aura without the points investment is a nice added bonus.
The real strength for DA is now having access to Combat Doctrines - there super trait for extended range is also really nice but range in general was never a real problem for them though
Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.
Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.
WhiteDog wrote: I'm sorry for digging this post, especially if there's already been an answer for this but I've got my hand on Ritual of the damned and not only there's no point value for Lazarus, but there's also no point value for the new Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition.
I've seen on warhammer community that they told us that Lazarus was 105 pts, but anybody have seen anywhere the value of that bolt carbine with special issue ammunition ?
Thanks in advance.
Not sure what weapon you mean here? If it's the Eliminator Sgt weapon it's likely been missed off the list along with the las fusil. Both were missed from the BA points list as well and not even corrected in the Blood of Baal FAQ.
Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.
Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.
I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!
That is great that you are happy! I guess when you get fed gak long enough then a frosted turd looks great. We did get some ok stuff to be fair but nothing that is going to make 1ksons competitive other than the supreme command detachment you were already seeing in most lists. You have to dedicate entire detachments to a cult to get access to one new power, relic, or warlord trait. Other releases can pick and choose their new toys and don't have the problem of good powers being stuck with gak traits and relics or good relics being stuck with the gak powers. Not to mention in their infinite wisdom they made cultists and tzaangors not allowed to be effected by the new cult stuff so half of our army doesn't even benefit from the new stuff.
Now lets get to the strats. Risen Rubricae is great if you get first turn. If you don't you just served up your squad to your opponent on a silver platter. Sure you can use the wl trait to redeploy them to a more safer spot in your deployment zone but then you are already on the back foot by wasting a cp. Infernal Fusillade is the only shoot twice strat in the game that I know of that doesn't allow you to move. I don't know about you but I havn't played a game yet where my rubrics get to stand still and shoot all that often. Its made even worse by all of our new movement shenanigans specifically stating that they count as having moved. Again if you get first turn and can use it on a squad of dudes in your opponents face great! I don't like designing my list around getting first turn. Indomitable foes is neat but 1 wound 3++ isn't what it used to be with the offensive output most armies can muster now a days. Yoked automata can be interesting with the Scarab Occult but slinging my rubrics into close combat is the last thing I want to do.
All in all are they slight buffs yes. Does it make it to were we are going to see 1ksons on the top tables in competitive events outside of supreme command probably not. Hell I don't think its enough to bring pure 1ksons to even middle of the pack. All in all I just feel like it was a filler supplement for our filler codex. I just don't think GW has a clear focus on what they want to do with the faction. It probably never should have been made its on codex honestly.
Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.
Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.
I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!
That is great that you are happy! I guess when you get fed gak long enough then a frosted turd looks great. We did get some ok stuff to be fair but nothing that is going to make 1ksons competitive other than the supreme command detachment you were already seeing in most lists. You have to dedicate entire detachments to a cult to get access to one new power, relic, or warlord trait. Other releases can pick and choose their new toys and don't have the problem of good powers being stuck with gak traits and relics or good relics being stuck with the gak powers. Not to mention in their infinite wisdom they made cultists and tzaangors not allowed to be effected by the new cult stuff so half of our army doesn't even benefit from the new stuff.
Now lets get to the strats. Risen Rubricae is great if you get first turn. If you don't you just served up your squad to your opponent on a silver platter. Sure you can use the wl trait to redeploy them to a more safer spot in your deployment zone but then you are already on the back foot by wasting a cp. Infernal Fusillade is the only shoot twice strat in the game that I know of that doesn't allow you to move. I don't know about you but I havn't played a game yet where my rubrics get to stand still and shoot all that often. Its made even worse by all of our new movement shenanigans specifically stating that they count as having moved. Again if you get first turn and can use it on a squad of dudes in your opponents face great! I don't like designing my list around getting first turn. Indomitable foes is neat but 1 wound 3++ isn't what it used to be with the offensive output most armies can muster now a days. Yoked automata can be interesting with the Scarab Occult but slinging my rubrics into close combat is the last thing I want to do.
All in all are they slight buffs yes. Does it make it to were we are going to see 1ksons on the top tables in competitive events outside of supreme command probably not. Hell I don't think its enough to bring pure 1ksons to even middle of the pack. All in all I just feel like it was a filler supplement for our filler codex. I just don't think GW has a clear focus on what they want to do with the faction. It probably never should have been made its on codex honestly.
The sad truth is GW clearly intends for the entire Chaos faction to be played as a soup army for the rest 8th. Every major rule update to the Imperium faction after SM 2.0 (the supplements, BA, DA, GK, Sisters) have explicit rules that encourage playing mono faction. While Chaos rules actually encourage the complete opposite by not introducing combat doctrine equivalent, not fixing god awful legions, not having god awful legion traits affect all units, but instead introducing incredibly powerful rules for very specific units in god awful legions (see night lord and word bearers.) Nothing PA encouraged you to take a full night lord army, but it definitely makes you want to take a night lord warp talons detachment in your AL and IW army.
This is the way Chaos is built, and why Chaos psychic powers are designed to work across multiple books. And it completely screws over mono-faction chaos players
Yeah I got that feeling too. While I don't hate soup nor do I even hate it being the most optimal way to play the game. I still think they should have done a better job of bringing up the other codices. Space marines should not be the only faction that can be highly competitive inside their own codex.
Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.
Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.
I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!
That is great that you are happy! I guess when you get fed gak long enough then a frosted turd looks great. We did get some ok stuff to be fair but nothing that is going to make 1ksons competitive other than the supreme command detachment you were already seeing in most lists. You have to dedicate entire detachments to a cult to get access to one new power, relic, or warlord trait. Other releases can pick and choose their new toys and don't have the problem of good powers being stuck with gak traits and relics or good relics being stuck with the gak powers. Not to mention in their infinite wisdom they made cultists and tzaangors not allowed to be effected by the new cult stuff so half of our army doesn't even benefit from the new stuff.
Now lets get to the strats. Risen Rubricae is great if you get first turn. If you don't you just served up your squad to your opponent on a silver platter. Sure you can use the wl trait to redeploy them to a more safer spot in your deployment zone but then you are already on the back foot by wasting a cp. Infernal Fusillade is the only shoot twice strat in the game that I know of that doesn't allow you to move. I don't know about you but I havn't played a game yet where my rubrics get to stand still and shoot all that often. Its made even worse by all of our new movement shenanigans specifically stating that they count as having moved. Again if you get first turn and can use it on a squad of dudes in your opponents face great! I don't like designing my list around getting first turn. Indomitable foes is neat but 1 wound 3++ isn't what it used to be with the offensive output most armies can muster now a days. Yoked automata can be interesting with the Scarab Occult but slinging my rubrics into close combat is the last thing I want to do.
All in all are they slight buffs yes. Does it make it to were we are going to see 1ksons on the top tables in competitive events outside of supreme command probably not. Hell I don't think its enough to bring pure 1ksons to even middle of the pack. All in all I just feel like it was a filler supplement for our filler codex. I just don't think GW has a clear focus on what they want to do with the faction. It probably never should have been made its on codex honestly.
The sad truth is GW clearly intends for the entire Chaos faction to be played as a soup army for the rest 8th. Every major rule update to the Imperium faction after SM 2.0 (the supplements, BA, DA, GK, Sisters) have explicit rules that encourage playing mono faction. While Chaos rules actually encourage the complete opposite by not introducing combat doctrine equivalent, not fixing god awful legions, not having god awful legion traits affect all units, but instead introducing incredibly powerful rules for very specific units in god awful legions (see night lord and word bearers.) Nothing PA encouraged you to take a full night lord army, but it definitely makes you want to take a night lord warp talons detachment in your AL and IW army.
This is the way Chaos is built, and why Chaos psychic powers are designed to work across multiple books. And it completely screws over mono-faction chaos players
I fear you're right. And I fething hate it. I don't want to soup my Night Lords who, in the fluff, are notorious for not playing well with others (they even routinely tell Abaddon to go feth himself when he calls on them to join a Black Crusade).
The legions should be just as playable mono faction as the loyalists.
WhiteDog wrote: I'm sorry for digging this post, especially if there's already been an answer for this but I've got my hand on Ritual of the damned and not only there's no point value for Lazarus, but there's also no point value for the new Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition.
I've seen on warhammer community that they told us that Lazarus was 105 pts, but anybody have seen anywhere the value of that bolt carbine with special issue ammunition ?
Thanks in advance.
Not sure what weapon you mean here? If it's the Eliminator Sgt weapon it's likely been missed off the list along with the las fusil. Both were missed from the BA points list as well and not even corrected in the Blood of Baal FAQ.
I'm talking about the new weapon that primaris master can take and that is in the new kit that came out with the psychic awakening (Lazarus / Primaris Master) : the Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition (24" assault 2 S4 PA -2 D1).
It's the new weapon that came out with the book and it's not even in the book, just like Lazarus btw.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!
Don't bloodletters spend 2CP to deep strike and charge 3d6+1"?
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.
You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.
Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.
Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.
I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!
Don't bloodletters spend 2CP to deep strike and charge 3d6+1"?
Jimbobbyish wrote: does the 6" deep strike deathwing stratagem ignore the 12" deep strike denial zone from Infiltrator Squads?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
I'm curious as to why.
Which rules apply first, or take presidence over the other?
I predict some minor arguements are sbout to occur in my local club and would love some way of resolving them with a solid defendable answer.
On the basis of date of publication, and the necessity to spend command points, I would argue that Combined Assault takes precedence over Omni-scramblers, but I can hardly be assumed to lack bias. I feel there will be heated debates about this one for sure until we get a clarification.
Jimbobbyish wrote: does the 6" deep strike deathwing stratagem ignore the 12" deep strike denial zone from Infiltrator Squads?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.
I'm curious as to why.
Which rules apply first, or take presidence over the other?
I predict some minor arguements are sbout to occur in my local club and would love some way of resolving them with a solid defendable answer.
On the basis of date of publication, and the necessity to spend command points, I would argue that Combined Assault takes precedence over Omni-scramblers, but I can hardly be assumed to lack bias. I feel there will be heated debates about this one for sure until we get a clarification.
Unfortunately, they didn't clarify in the latest FAQ, so if any of you know where I can find the Infiltrators/Mawlock clarification, I'd be eternally grateful.
