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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
If anything marine players should be stoked...knowing they're just going to spoiled constantly with kits for the foreseeable future.


And by forseeable future you mean until GW no longer makes 40k.


This.

I mean, there's a reason GW has both in the past and in the present spread out the Power-Armour love with separate books (whether you label them "Codex" or "Supplement" is largely irrelevant, aside from the "supplement" version forcing people to buy a second book).

If 6 out of 10 (randomly made up number) players play Marines, 6 out of 10 books / army releases need to be marines. You cannot service 6 out 10 players with only 1 out of 10 books / army releases, just because in the background the thing those 6 out of 10 players play is one faction in-universe. It still needs to be 6 factions on the sale/logistic side of things to meet the demand as best as it can.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, people have complained a lot about the PA releases "Why did you put my stuff in an SM book !?!"

But in the end it was the correct thing to do. Without this format we would never see so much attention to NPC factions. By releasing every npc faction supplement together with a marine supplement, it allows them to keep things going for everyone without it being a commercial suicide.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Spoletta wrote:
Yeah, people have complained a lot about the PA releases "Why did you put my stuff in an SM book !?!"

But in the end it was the correct thing to do. Without this format we would never see so much attention to NPC factions. By releasing every npc faction supplement together with a marine supplement, it allows them to keep things going for everyone without it being a commercial suicide.


yeah I mean when the alternative is "A supplement just isn't worth it for Codex: low selling army"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.

So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.

But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 08:56:05


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Gadzilla666 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.

So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.

But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.


In xenos world the squigoth is great, boyz are 6ppm and the kff is covering the whole ork horde.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Not Online!!! wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.

So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.

But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.


In xenos world the squigoth is great, boyz are 6ppm and the kff is covering the whole ork horde.


in fairness Xenos is faaar from the only person who hears something about an army he doesn't play, and hyperboles it into the stratosphere.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Isn't that the Dakka way?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


Going by the initial "Primaris will replace old-Marines" whining back on their first leak, old-Marines are already gone and illegal to play for a solid two years now.

That "yet" will not happen. Old Marines will still be a game-legal army in 2030, no issue (assuming the game itself is still around).


Of course by the the 2030 they will probably cost more points than primaris do seeing how GW is nerffing them in relation to primaris. So while they might be legal you would have to be crazy to take them.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 fraser1191 wrote:
Isn't that the Dakka way?


I've been considering creating a "Dakka drinking game" thread

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






BrianDavion wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Isn't that the Dakka way?


I've been considering creating a "Dakka drinking game" thread


I'd rather not play that and succumb to alcohol poisoning
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Jidmah wrote:
I wonder if could train a neuronal net to create these threads automatically whenever any book is released...


There are certainly a fair few posters I think could be easily replicated with existing AIs. Any time a book gets released, just have it make an angry post about how there are copy errors, the book is better than GK, the book is better than orks, and the book is better than blood angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
To not invalidate them *yet*. There would have been nothing wrong with resculpting marines, they've done so in the past with terminators being the most obvious example. Primaries exist because they are chunky toys, not miniatures, and so GW could enforce No Models, No Rules easier, since all the primaris units are mono loadout.


But...most Space Marine stuff had all the options they had access to in the kits...And they JUST, like JUST NOW released new CSM and SOB boxes with upgrades and gak identical to old marines.

TBH I've always ascribed the monoloadout strategy for primaris to making them more newbie-friendly. You have no idea how many times I've had to explain to a new player that he could not have 3 guys in his tactical squad with the cool melee weapons from the box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 12:30:57


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Missed this thread completely, shame.So it starts with Xeno claiming that DA are the new super marines, and his UM are crap....again? lol

As a DA player, I'm happy we got buffs, but these are in no way a point and click super boost for DA. there is a lot of dichotomy in the doctrines. Ravenwing and Deathwing don't want to be in Devastator Doctrine (outside maybe a Landspeeder themed force). You're going to want -1AP on bike bolters, stormbolters, even plasma talons (no 6+ save for you), more than you'll want a little extra range.

The new RW and DW WTs, relics etc are really nice though, and I can see why they got boosted. It's actually a very genuine smart play by GW, neither RW or DW benefit from the base doctrine or super doctrine, so having these additional benefits really help (although you do need to spend CP to do so, a downside to 2 forces that don't get a lot of CP).

DA will be good, but they will require more finesse, knowing when to rotate through the doctrines (as it should be for all chapters...not the auto stay in Devastator all game BS, terrible design). There are some builds that will benefit from just being in Dev doctrine the whole game (the Greenwing gunline), but those won't do well in most games I feel as they haven't been doing great before. Aggressors with extra 3"? No thanks, I'd rather get -1AP on those shots, far more important.

As for the 6" Chaplain that makes UM extinct (lol, ridiculous), have people (well, one person) already forgot about Eliminators and Ravenguard? Rely on character auras at your own peril.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 12:57:28


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






What I find most curious about the whole thing honestly is the fact that GW previewed the primaris integration into the DW and RW, and we haven't seen any kind of interaction in these rules. I figured the DW would get some kind of synergy with the Infiltrator units.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It calls out the unit. Only a hellbrute can do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.

So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.

But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
Are you really so obtuse as to think I was trying to mislead anyone? I was making a point that CSM can fire twice with more units and better units. I play CSM. I know the stratagems limitations. Here you are again targeting me with negative comments because you have nothing better to do with your time. My comment had nothing to do with which faction has better dreads. In fact I even point out the marine unit often has better base rules...Holy crap. You are basically trolling at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
Missed this thread completely, shame.So it starts with Xeno claiming that DA are the new super marines, and his UM are crap....again? lol

As a DA player, I'm happy we got buffs, but these are in no way a point and click super boost for DA. there is a lot of dichotomy in the doctrines. Ravenwing and Deathwing don't want to be in Devastator Doctrine (outside maybe a Landspeeder themed force). You're going to want -1AP on bike bolters, stormbolters, even plasma talons (no 6+ save for you), more than you'll want a little extra range.

The new RW and DW WTs, relics etc are really nice though, and I can see why they got boosted. It's actually a very genuine smart play by GW, neither RW or DW benefit from the base doctrine or super doctrine, so having these additional benefits really help (although you do need to spend CP to do so, a downside to 2 forces that don't get a lot of CP).

DA will be good, but they will require more finesse, knowing when to rotate through the doctrines (as it should be for all chapters...not the auto stay in Devastator all game BS, terrible design). There are some builds that will benefit from just being in Dev doctrine the whole game (the Greenwing gunline), but those won't do well in most games I feel as they haven't been doing great before. Aggressors with extra 3"? No thanks, I'd rather get -1AP on those shots, far more important.

As for the 6" Chaplain that makes UM extinct (lol, ridiculous), have people (well, one person) already forgot about Eliminators and Ravenguard? Rely on character auras at your own peril.
Ultras don't even win 50% of their games in competitive. They are crap compared to top marine factions. For the record. A chaplain dread might as well be considered immortal to sniper weapons that arent RG. Plus DA eliminators will outrange the RG snipers and if they can shoot at a chappy/chappy dread(assuming it gets access to litanies). They will just get blown up by intercessors with SBR. The ignore LOS shot with eliminators is useless in the tactical doctrine. AP-1 ignores cover 1 damage and doesn't even do mortals?

DA can switch units to tactical doctrine on demand. So they can move and shoot double taps at 18" at AP -1 with aggressors while the rest of their army remains in dev doctrine if they so desire. Ultras already been extinct dude. Not only do they have less useful abiltiies than DA. DA are better at the things Ultras excell at. It is pathetic.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 18:24:33


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Spoiler:

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It calls out the unit. Only a hellbrute can do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Helbrutes. Not Dreadnoughts-only Helbrutes.

Not sure off-hand if it references the keyword or unit name.

It's the unit name. Hellforged dreadnoughts have the hellbrute keyword so they get legion traits but they can't use the fire frenzy strategem while ALL loyalist dreadnoughts can use duty eternal. Including the leviathan which is already more resilient than the hellforged version because of its superior invul. So the fire frenzy strategem is definitely not better than duty eternal.

So once again Xeno is talking about rules for an army he obviously doesn't know much about.

But obviously he wouldn't know rules for traitor marines as he's a filthy loyalist.
Are you really so obtuse as to think I was trying to mislead anyone? I was making a point that CSM can fire twice with more units and better units. I play CSM. I know the stratagems limitations. Here you are again targeting me with negative comments because you have nothing better to do with your time. My comment had nothing to do with which faction has better dreads. In fact I even point out the marine unit often has better base rules...Holy crap. You are basically trolling at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
Missed this thread completely, shame.So it starts with Xeno claiming that DA are the new super marines, and his UM are crap....again? lol

As a DA player, I'm happy we got buffs, but these are in no way a point and click super boost for DA. there is a lot of dichotomy in the doctrines. Ravenwing and Deathwing don't want to be in Devastator Doctrine (outside maybe a Landspeeder themed force). You're going to want -1AP on bike bolters, stormbolters, even plasma talons (no 6+ save for you), more than you'll want a little extra range.

The new RW and DW WTs, relics etc are really nice though, and I can see why they got boosted. It's actually a very genuine smart play by GW, neither RW or DW benefit from the base doctrine or super doctrine, so having these additional benefits really help (although you do need to spend CP to do so, a downside to 2 forces that don't get a lot of CP).

DA will be good, but they will require more finesse, knowing when to rotate through the doctrines (as it should be for all chapters...not the auto stay in Devastator all game BS, terrible design). There are some builds that will benefit from just being in Dev doctrine the whole game (the Greenwing gunline), but those won't do well in most games I feel as they haven't been doing great before. Aggressors with extra 3"? No thanks, I'd rather get -1AP on those shots, far more important.

As for the 6" Chaplain that makes UM extinct (lol, ridiculous), have people (well, one person) already forgot about Eliminators and Ravenguard? Rely on character auras at your own peril.
Ultras don't even win 50% of their games in competitive. They are crap compared to top marine factions. For the record. A chaplain dread might as well be considered immortal to sniper weapons that arent RG. Plus DA eliminators will outrange the RG snipers and if they can shoot at a chappy/chappy dread(assuming it gets access to litanies). They will just get blown up by intercessors with SBR. The ignore LOS shot with eliminators is useless in the tactical doctrine. AP-1 ignores cover 1 damage and doesn't even do mortals?

DA can switch units to tactical doctrine on demand. So they can move and shoot double taps at 18" at AP -1 with aggressors while the rest of their army remains in dev doctrine if they so desire. Ultras already been extinct dude. Not only do they have less useful abiltiies than DA. DA are better at the things Ultras excell at. It is pathetic.


I never said you were misleading people, I said you were wrong. Learn the difference.

Strategems scale up in utility as there used on better units. Duty eternal is good on a box dread but strong as feth on something already as durable as a leviathan. Fire frenzy by comparison can only be used on hellbrutes, which are an only ok shooting unit. So fire frenzy is definitely not better or even nearly as good as duty eternal.

Y'know at this point you have enough fights going on so I'm going to back off as it's starting to feel like arguing with you is just piling on. Good luck arguing with half the forum.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 23:25:00


 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Can someone confirm if the following is correct (based on the rumoured/leaked stratagems) please?

Deathwing Knights are 350 pts for 10 models with a 2+, 3++ and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds if Lazarus is nearby. They can Deep Strike up to 6" away with a rerollable charge if Sammael is used to summon them with the 2 CP stratagem. Their damage output is very high in CQC. If they somehow fail the charge (88.44% chance of making it), they can get -1 to wound AND stack Transhuman Physiology. A KNIGHT will be wounding them on 5s or 6s and they get their 3++. If Sammael isn't used/is somehow killed any Ravenwing unit can summon them in. The cost to summon them is 2CP. The costs for the -1 to wound and Transuman are 1CP and 2CP respectively (worst case, if they fail that charge (11.56%)).

If so these seem really, really un-fun to play against.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally. The former restricts wounding to natural rolls, while the latter goes against weapon strength. A weapon that wounds on a 3, but rolls a 4 in this scenario would still wound.

Realistically, it would only impact S3 and S4 weapons (pushing them to needing 6s instead of 5s and 5s instead of 4s respectively).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 19:19:49


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Eh, there's plenty of cases where spending two HQ slots, a 350-point unit, and a detachment's worth of CPs would lead to some degenerate comboes. It's one of those things that look horrendous on paper but isn't going to go anywhere because there's too many moving parts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 19:22:41


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Ultras don't even win 50% of their games in competitive. They are crap compared to top marine factions.


*sigh* I told you in the other thread data is finicky. So I made this. These are players who used UM August through December with their win rates, the number of games they played as UM in that period, and the number of games they played last year.

The red line signifies the 50% WR. As you will see there is more experience to the left of that red line. Most people played UM once in this time period. More people who played them frequently are found to the left as well. The same dynamic applies to Iron Hands (and White Scars) even though IH has more players "to the left".

Spoiler:


And here are Iron Hands (or lists containing them):

Spoiler:


So you can see one UM player all the way to the right who played them twice during that period and clearly did abysmally. I won't name the player.

First tournament : 32 players and 3 losses. He did not attend the second day for rounds 4 and 5.

Tigurius
Calgar
2x10 Intercessors
9 Intercessors
5 Aggressors

Chaplain
Lieutenant
3x5 Scouts
3x3 Suppressors
3x3 Eliminators

Opponents:
- Orks with Boyz, Smasha Guns, Gretchin, and 2 Dakkajets.
- AM with 3 TCs, 60 IS with PG & AC, 3 Hellhounds, tons of mortars, and a Smash Captain
and...(LOL)
- Orks with a list that literally only says STOMPA

He didn't bring a terrible list, but he brought a list that has no answer to armor and as really soft to D2 weapons.

Ok - next tournament! 29 Players LWLDD

And the list:

Calgar
Primaris LT MCABR
3x5 Scouts
2x Invictor w/ flamers

Chaplain Dread w/ TLC
2x3 Eliminator
Levi w/ SC

Tigurius
Jump LT
3 Eliminators
Levi w/ SC
TFC

WOW! Ok now that's a much more competitive list AND he stuck it out for all the games. What did he play?

Round 1 (loss)
3 Discolords
3x5 CSM

Despoiler, Double Thermal
2 Wardogs, AC

Sorcerer
3x7 Bezerkers
3 Rhinos

Those invictors are useless for a forward position against discos. The snipers barely useful, too. Levis will struggle to keep a knight in range that can outrange them with nothing to scare the knight out of position.

Round 2 (Win!):

6 Armigers, AC
3 CC
50 IS
4x5 Rangers, Arquebus
2x20 Infiltrators

This is where Levis get to shine where the opponent carries no weapons able to crack a T8 2+ reliably.

Round 3 (Loss):

Castelln
2 Crusaders

Enough said.

Round 4 (Draw):

UM with Bobby and lots of dreads

Round 5 (Draw):

Stompa, Smashas, Dakkajets

Wait...UM player getting beat by Stompas...is this you? I kid...I kid...

Or maybe...
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Sterling191 wrote:
Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally.

People seem to think it stacks. Probably needs a FAQ if it doesn't.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Eh, there's plenty of cases where spending two HQ slots, a 350-point unit, and a detachment's worth of CPs would lead to some degenerate comboes. It's one of those things that look horrendous on paper but isn't going to go anywhere because there's too many moving parts.

What do you mean by 'isn't going anywhere'? This combo is incredibly easy to pull off and Sammael is a decent unit anyway. Keep Lazarus at home if you like - a 2+, 3++ only wounding on 5s or 6s is pretty savage regardless of all the other shenanigans. Multiple ways to make Ravenwing units move an incredible distance. No real way to counter. 2 moving parts is not many.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally.

People seem to think it stacks. Probably needs a FAQ if it doesn't.


Its...complicated. Technically they do stack, but the way they stack means that they only change outcomes in specific circumstances.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone confirm if the following is correct (based on the rumoured/leaked stratagems) please?

Deathwing Knights are 350 pts for 10 models with a 2+, 3++ and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds if Lazarus is nearby. They can Deep Strike up to 6" away with a rerollable charge if Sammael is used to summon them with the 2 CP stratagem. Their damage output is very high in CQC. If they somehow fail the charge (88.44% chance of making it), they can get -1 to wound AND stack Transhuman Physiology. A KNIGHT will be wounding them on 5s or 6s and they get their 3++. If Sammael isn't used/is somehow killed any Ravenwing unit can summon them in. The cost to summon them is 2CP. The costs for the -1 to wound and Transuman are 1CP and 2CP respectively (worst case, if they fail that charge (11.56%)).

If so these seem really, really un-fun to play against.


I actually think the opposite, this is an extremely powerful strategy with decent point and CP investment with several moving parts that leave them open for counter play. It will be a very good challenge to test your list against. Here are several things that immediately come to my mind when facing this combo:
- Extremely reliable deep strike CC is nothing new, the exception here is the unit is significantly tougher but significantly worse mobility (no fly, 5’’ movement) without RW enabler. So screening is expected to take the initial brunt of the charge as usual
- RW unit is required to enable the combo, but bikes can be shot at, movement blocked or tremor shelled, speeders are ridiculously fragile and don’t contributed much damage when they are not supporting DW teleport. And if you’re sling shooting Sammael into the frontline, you’re probably losing Sammael. Keep in mind the teleport strat requires the RW to not advance so it’s not like you’re guaranteed to get your RW units to where you want all the time, yes Full Throttle should be taken into consideration, that's another 1CP btw, if you're loaded in DW and RW units you're not exactly swimming in CP
- How much damage do DW knights actually do? Really? I’m not familiar with their stats but I doubt they are throwing out 6 attacks per models, can they actually reliably clean a screen of horrors or plaguebearers? If they can’t they are just begging to be surrounded and locked down, in which case they will have to rely on another teleport to bail them out, which means even more RW unit investment. Not trivial
- DW knights need to be on the table first turn. So they can get tremor shelled and now their charge becomes basically impossible.

TLR Tremor shell is stupid and should be removed

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 21:01:56


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Transhuman physiology and negative wound modifiers dont stack in that fashion universally.

People seem to think it stacks. Probably needs a FAQ if it doesn't.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Eh, there's plenty of cases where spending two HQ slots, a 350-point unit, and a detachment's worth of CPs would lead to some degenerate comboes. It's one of those things that look horrendous on paper but isn't going to go anywhere because there's too many moving parts.

What do you mean by 'isn't going anywhere'? This combo is incredibly easy to pull off and Sammael is a decent unit anyway. Keep Lazarus at home if you like - a 2+, 3++ only wounding on 5s or 6s is pretty savage regardless of all the other shenanigans. Multiple ways to make Ravenwing units move an incredible distance. No real way to counter. 2 moving parts is not many.


Without the 5+++ against MWs you're really vulnerable to smite-spam and the like. You're also limited by the fact that the enemy knows exactly where you could be showing up with the combo, allowing the enemy to react appropriately,

Don't get me wrong, it'll hurt pretty badly if they manage to connect, but there's hardly "no real way to counter". It's a more expensive Letterbomb with much better durability but which is more predictable.

You might actually be right on them seeing play on second thought though, I'll admit that.

EDIT: Also, see above for more points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 21:19:14


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@Continuity & Walrus

I should probably be clearer, I think there is little to no counterplay for many factions. Yes Tremorshells will help. Wish I had em, or something like em.

A screen will help but all this happens turn 2. Plenty of time to put a dent in a screen.

I don't think the combo is easy to telegraph either, there are so many units that can bring in the DW Knights I don't think it can really be stopped that easily at all.

For me the primary limiting factor is that "all units must be wholly within 6" of [the summoning unit] or they are destroyed". Perhaps it'll be difficult to get a full 10 in the available space?

I don't know though, it just feels like the only weakness of DW Knights (their mobility and ability to get into combat/deal damage) has been completely mitigated by this combo. So either the points are no longer appropriate or the stratagem isn't.

This isn't even an expensive combo. The largest investment is the CP cost probably. Bear in mind the stratagems that increase survivability might not even be required (depending on what they get in combat with).

I don't know, just thinking aloud really. I'm not saying this is broken or is going to wreck the meta or anything, it's just for me, personally, it feels really obnoxious and boring.
   
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does the 6" deep strike deathwing stratagem ignore the 12" deep strike denial zone from Infiltrator Squads?

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
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Sweden

No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.
   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.


Meanwhile it reinforces those subfactions that can.
Again.

Mainline csm at this point should probably just be renamed to codex alpha legion (well technically the scourged and any counter fire dropp units stratagem faction)
But still

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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.


I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights
   
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 Continuity wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.


I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights


Grot screens really don't last long in the current marine meta, especially with TFC and the crapload of dakka that can be put out by most marine lists. By T2, most of the screens are mostly gone, or with gaps that the DWK can exploit.
   
 
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