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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

 captain collius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

And Logan "Start a civil war over the treatment of Armageddon Steel Legion troops by the Grey Knights to the point where they invade the Fenris System, try to assassinate Logan and Logan kills a Grey Knight Grand Master in response" Grimnar just rolled over and let the Inquisition cull 96% of the population of Fenris, thus essentially killing the planet and the Space Wolves chapter as they won't be able to recover in population (and unlike most other marine chapters the SW can only recruit from a single world), and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day.

Just like how Baal and the Blood Angels got nearly wiped out and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day. I get it, they want to squat oldmarines but at least don't be so blatant about it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

And Logan "Start a civil war over the treatment of Armageddon Steel Legion troops by the Grey Knights to the point where they invade the Fenris System, try to assassinate Logan and Logan kills a Grey Knight Grand Master in response" Grimnar just rolled over and let the Inquisition cull 96% of the population of Fenris, thus essentially killing the planet and the Space Wolves chapter as they won't be able to recover in population (and unlike most other marine chapters the SW can only recruit from a single world), and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day.

Just like how Baal and the Blood Angels got nearly wiped out and WHAT A COINCIDINK Cawl and his Mary Sue Marines come to save the day. I get it, they want to squat oldmarines but at least don't be so blatant about it.

It is what it is. I still play eighth Edition fantasy. We all enjoy the game through our own point of view.

 captain collius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.

Really surprised that their super doctrine is Devastator dependant - was honestly expecting them to want to be in Tactical doctrine.

Seems like the leak from the other day was right on the money so we know what to expect for the rest.

As a side note, anyone else peeved that the artwork for Lazarus has him wearing his helmet but the model doesn't support that?

Blastaar wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.

Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.

It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Really surprised that their super doctrine is Devastator dependant - was honestly expecting them to want to be in Tactical doctrine.

Seems like the leak from the other day was right on the money so we know what to expect for the rest.

As a side note, anyone else peeved that the artwork for Lazarus has him wearing his helmet but the model doesn't support that?

Leak from the other day? Care to share with the rest of the class?

The Newman wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Really surprised that their super doctrine is Devastator dependant - was honestly expecting them to want to be in Tactical doctrine.

Seems like the leak from the other day was right on the money so we know what to expect for the rest.

As a side note, anyone else peeved that the artwork for Lazarus has him wearing his helmet but the model doesn't support that?

Leak from the other day? Care to share with the rest of the class?

Posted in the DA tactica thread the other day (original source B&C)
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360223-ritual-of-the-damned-psychic-awakening/page-16#entry5461179

Gadzilla666 wrote:
That said anybody saying that super doctrine isn't strong either isn't thinking or being disingenuous. One of nu-marines biggest strengths is primaris increased range compared to normal factions. With this super doctrine da intercessors and hellblasters will out range most other infantry in the game by 50%. If they take the stalker bolt rifle option that goes up another 6 plus an additional -1ap. Plus increased range on everything else.

Someone at gw must have really liked building castles as a kid.

I'm possibly underestimating it but I don't see it doing much. Okay - plus range on short range guns like flamers you can stick in people's face is great, we know this.
Longer range on already long range guns though is often superfluous. Okay your stalkers can shoot something 42 inches away. But does that really help them versus being able to shoot the regular 36"? Tables are not that big, unless you are back-lining them they would most likely be in range of whatever you wanted to shoot anyway. It seems like an edge case rather than something that will constantly be useful. Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?

I'm cynical due to the amount of effort I feel Tau players have put in with Borkhan, only to (mostly) conclude that Tau is just better - for several reasons beyond just chapter tactics, but I think the above is a big part of it. The theory of being able to reach out 42" exceeds the actual practice of doing so.

6">3", but I feel those short range weapons are getting the benefit from Long Range Marksmen. The argument is therefore reroll 1s if you stand still as good as say Master Artisans (unless it gets buffed). As you say, castle up, don't move, enjoy both - but I'm not easily persuaded giving up movement will be the winning choice. And if you are castling up in this way, you probably want to have Azrael, which dillutes the ability to reroll 1s.

Basically it doesn't seem to work now - I'm not seeing why its going to be especially hot in the future.

BaconCatBug wrote:Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

If you're going to talk about lore being correctly followed, I'd suggest you read it first before making a statement like that.

The Dark Angels accepting Primaris from the first wave of reinforcements into the Inner Circle? Yeah, that would be unlikely. But, luckily, that's not what happened. The Primaris delegate of the Dark Angels during the Vigilus war literally had no idea what the Deathwing and Ravenwing forces deployed under his command were actually doing, and had been kept entirely in the dark.

What's actually happening is that pre-existing Dark Angels, who have already proven their loyalty like any other Dark Angel has, or ones who have only known the doctrines of the Unforgiven (like any other Dark Angel), are simply being made more powerful. That's it. If you cross the Rubicon Primaris, you don't suddenly become a discount Ultramarine and give away all your secrets. You're just another Dark Angel.

Or, are you suggesting that the Dark Angels, since the Heresy, have never recruited a single other member into the Deathwing? Because they must have taken new members in at some point - and who says that new Primaris members homegrown by the Chapter wouldn't be suitable?

It's misconceptions like these about Primaris that lead to the kind of misinformation displayed here.

Blastaar wrote:GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.

It's no different to them accepting any other Dark Angel.

You, like BCB, have made the assumption that all Primaris are made up of the first wave that Guilliman released during the Indomitus Crusade. That is not true.

As said above, the first wave of Primaris are unlikely to have been inducted, I'll agree on that. But you haven't factored in Primaris Marines who have been inducted into the Chapter like any other Firstborn Marine (ie, recruited as a teenager from a DA recruiting world, implanted and indoctrinated, and left to rise the ranks of the Dark Angels), or ones who have been a member of the Dark Angels for centuries, and have crossed the Rubicon Primaris (like Lazarus). In both of their cases, they have just as much reason to be a member of the Inner Circle as any other Firstborn Dark Angel: their Primaris status doesn't affect their loyalty or suddenly rewrite their personality.

If it's a case of 'I simply don't want Primaris models in my army', then that's simple - don't take them. Just because the Ultramarines 2nd now has Primaris in it doesn't mean I need to add any Primaris to my own Ultramarines 2nd. It's a provision for those who want to follow the lore and have their own awesome looking models.

Yeah, the more I think about it the worse I think it is.

Great on levi dreads and heavy flamers but the other things I'd want to use it on want to be in assault doc. The re-roll of 1's if you stay still is just so bad to me there needs to be larger upside. I'm salty about legends removing a couple units that would benefit from a lot of this (double flamer land speeders, chaplains on bike).

Heavy plasma hellblasters are a terrible unit (and are significantly better as IF if you wanted to go that route).

If you are castling you want azzy and azzy gives you full re-rolls. My elems will like it but that's about all in my army that stands still and cares about getting re-rolls 1 to hit. Let units that move/advance do it and then we've got something but standing still and shooting with DA isn't a winning strategy.

The 6" bubble of ignore moving penalties for RW is great on the sammy and talon master death ball and I may end up using that in some soup with some flyers and a dark shroud but that's a lot of fragile per point wounds that could end up with me getting tabled turn 3.

The auto deny one power is great but I'd rather have a 4+ deny strat that doesn't take a WL trait.

I feel like GW is doubling down on a lot of the bad design choices that make DA bad in 8th and the basic chassis of SM 2.0 will be enough to make DA playable but still at the lower levels of the power curve (which says a lot about just how powerful SM are).

Not every army needs to be great and getting the base SM stuff will bring DA from the literal bottom of the barrel to an army you can win with (albeit with a disadvantage) if you can out play your opponent or come up with a good strategy (mechanically inferior but at least you are bringing a sword to a gun fight vs before where you were walking out with a pool noodle).

Rumors of the 2.0 DA dex along with releasing the "missing" primaris units will probably clean a lot of this up (if those rumors have any truth behind them). Some quality RavenWing characters, primaris bikers, primaris death wing could make this work but, in my experience, most RW/DW units just aren't that good and are even worse in the meta we are currently in.

I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.

bananathug wrote:
Yeah, the more I think about it the worse I think it is.

Great on levi dreads and heavy flamers but the other things I'd want to use it on want to be in assault doc. The re-roll of 1's if you stay still is just so bad to me there needs to be larger upside. I'm salty about legends removing a couple units that would benefit from a lot of this (double flamer land speeders, chaplains on bike).

Heavy plasma hellblasters are a terrible unit (and are significantly better as IF if you wanted to go that route).

If you are castling you want azzy and azzy gives you full re-rolls. My elems will like it but that's about all in my army that stands still and cares about getting re-rolls 1 to hit. Let units that move/advance do it and then we've got something but standing still and shooting with DA isn't a winning strategy.

The 6" bubble of ignore moving penalties for RW is great on the sammy and talon master death ball and I may end up using that in some soup with some flyers and a dark shroud but that's a lot of fragile per point wounds that could end up with me getting tabled turn 3.

The auto deny one power is great but I'd rather have a 4+ deny strat that doesn't take a WL trait.

I feel like GW is doubling down on a lot of the bad design choices that make DA bad in 8th and the basic chassis of SM 2.0 will be enough to make DA playable but still at the lower levels of the power curve (which says a lot about just how powerful SM are).

Not every army needs to be great and getting the base SM stuff will bring DA from the literal bottom of the barrel to an army you can win with (albeit with a disadvantage) if you can out play your opponent or come up with a good strategy (mechanically inferior but at least you are bringing a sword to a gun fight vs before where you were walking out with a pool noodle).

Rumors of the 2.0 DA dex along with releasing the "missing" primaris units will probably clean a lot of this up (if those rumors have any truth behind them). Some quality RavenWing characters, primaris bikers, primaris death wing could make this work but, in my experience, most RW/DW units just aren't that good and are even worse in the meta we are currently in.

They have literally all the tools of the top faction ironhands. They might not be as simple to play as ironhands but overall they are probably MORE powerful than ironhands. They basically get all the same stuff with +6 range too. The only thing they are missing is MOA on every unit. An acceptable trade for a 4++ bubble. They can even make a unit on demand and doctrine they want and move and double tap with aggressors (4++ aggressors)...Plus talon master and Sammy on landspeeder were already borked and now they have doctrines. I think your assessment is off. The only thing they don't do as well is flyers and dreds/tanks...but if you look closely land speeder characters are basically a strom talon that can't be shot at due to character protection. Plus DA is an infantry focused army anyways.

You wont see hell blasters. Youll see agressors and intercessors with SBR azreal and character speeders - eliminators and tfc ofc. Maybe some will try blackknights with a biker captain but the plasma slaying your own dudes is still to big of a risk.

Any word on if DA can take the masters abilities for apoths/chappy/ancient ect?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.

You don't want to do it with their super melle terms? Forget what they are called.

You don't even know that DA don't get access to TFCs...

No master abilities, no chapter master strat, no marine super captain re-rolls...

Have you even looked at a real good IH list? Grav strat + exploding sixes + no heavy weapon penalties in a pod, character dreads, TFCs, no penalties on suppressors, iron stone. Master artisans, stealthy...You don't have a clue what makes IH good. Spend some time on BCP and get an idea of what good IH lists are bringing and then re-assess...Super healing, super tech marines giving vehicles 2+s...

Can we make that your quote. DA are more powerful than IH...

You realize a lot of their strats are locked to RW and DW units. Do you even know what RW/DW units are? Azzy's bubble only applies to models w/in 6", not units. One TFC ensures the entire bubble isn't moving more than 3 inches a turn...

Sammy + talonmasters will be good and probably the gem of the codex. Aggressors in a 4++ bubble will make for a tough bully unit but UM do it just as well if not better and we don't see them tearing up the meta (without new re-rolls and a way to re-roll wounds massed s4 shooting struggles against a lot of in meta threats).

You have no idea how the basics of DA work and are making wildly absurd claims (better than IH...). BIKER CAPTAINS GOT LEGENDED!!. Is there a line in your rant that has any factual basis?

Pretty much everything you said is wrong, it's not even worth engaging with you but just in case someone stumbles across this BS they should realize you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.

Whilst amazing for the lols and will overkill whatever you pointed it at... it's a huge chunk of points to be deleted the following turn - I'm going to try the same though

Tygre wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.

Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.

It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.

Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.

Blastaar wrote:

Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.

No it’s not. The initial first wave of reinforcements after Guilliman’s return was, but the fluff has moved on a couple of 100 years since then.

Gav Thorpes’ DA novels have the protagonist failing upward, first into the Ravenwing and then into the Deathwing, cause he keeps stumbling across secret stuff, all within a handful of years of being a Scout.

Why would a Primaris Marine after possibly 100 years of battle experience (still far more than the “effective” life expectancy of Marines, Primaris or not) not perhaps make Deathwing?

Blastaar wrote:

Tygre wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing Primaris should be Deathwing. In fact the Dark Angels and The Unforgiven should not be accepting Primaris in any way, shape, or form if the Lore was going to be correctly followed.

But in a post Gathering Storm era GW doesn't give a Grots Bollocks about the lore anyway.

This is actually true in the lore but the latest released lore has Azrael accepting the first primaris into the Deathwing over the objections of several in the inner circle. Probably being led by asmodai and Sapphon.

On the leaks give me DW getting permanent transhuman physiology. As the warlord trait may be (. I actually believe it's just on the character but we will see.) Also did anyone note the DW Master sword that thing is brutal cuts through intercessors and throws out MWs.

GW deciding that my secretive Unforgiven now accept primaris is really annoying.

Your secretive Unforgiven may not accept primaris.
BUT
Other peoples secretive Unforgiven may choose to accept primaris.

It makes sense to me that primaris created within the Chapter would be as trusted as any other marine in the Chapter. Would you stop trusting Brother Sergeant [redacted] that after 300 years of service he volunteers to cross the Rubicon and becomes a primaris. I rather have that option than not giving people that option.

Yes, I would, because the primaries process is outside of the chapter.

No they're not, the chapters are making their own primaris marines just like making normal marines, (or old marines are getting upgraded) and THOSE are the ones who are possiably entering the deathwing or the ravenwing.

this info has been out there since the summer time. people have been very clear about setting it out, at this point now the people who seem to think all primaris marines are really secret agents from Cawl grown in his vat clone chambers are being willfully ignorant.

I swear, a lot of people's lore objections to Primaris are not based on any actual lore at all but rumours and head canon.

Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.

These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.

Tyel wrote:
Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?

If you are within 18" enemy will struggle to bring bear his rapid fire 12" weapons in full effect. It's not just what YOU can reach but what OPPONENT can reach.

Average threat range for cc is 6+7+1=14. Not that far off from 15"...Basically enemy has 42" chance of engaging you from 15" distance without any rerolls. Add 3" more and that means fishing for 11" charge. 1/12 odds...

Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything to buff my poor old tacticals yet. Well I suppose doctrines are nothing to be sniffed at. Also, I don't have any Primaris (not against them or anything, they just don't suit my particular project) so Lazarus's highly situational buffs mean nothing to me one way or another. On the plus side, that new litany gives my walking Interrogator Chaplain a whole new role that he can actually fulfill, so I love that. Reckon my next list is going to be Ravenwing inserting Deathwing into enemy lines to double tap and charge into enemy lines. Can't figure out what I'll do after turns two and three though.

Edit: Reading this back, I realized the tone came off rather negative. That's not my intention. So far the buffs I've seem very good and fluffy without anything egregious enough to evoke the ire of the community. I really like what I'm seeing so far.

I wonder if could train a neuronal net to create these threads automatically whenever any book is released...

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’m gonna try spaffing 5CP to drop a ten-man Termy squad in near RW >6” from the enemy, then unload 2 asscans and 8 storm bolters at something twice, then charge the thing >6” away. Should be amusingly killy even if not what you’d call competitive.

Whilst amazing for the lols and will overkill whatever you pointed it at... it's a huge chunk of points to be deleted the following turn - I'm going to try the same though

Oh for sure but that one time is gonna be great fun. But yeah, watching all those valiant first company Brothers dying will be sad.

Xeno, I don’t own any DW Knights and the Deathwing Assault strat is the key as they get two rounds of shooting off in one turn then an easy charge with powerfists galore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I wonder if could train a neuronal net to create these threads automatically whenever any book is released...

Call it a Book Criticism Bot, which abbreviates as...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.

These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.

you know how it is, everyone insists they want balance... until their codex comes out where if it's not obviously at first glance a broken OP codex it's terribad

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Surprised at the amount of salt here from DA players. I would take these additional rules in a heartbeat for my faction. Also I’m told repeatedly that IH will be nerfed and aren’t what we should measure balance against.

These rules seem fluffy and there are some very powerful combos.

you know how it is, everyone insists they want balance... until their codex comes out where if it's not obviously at first glance a broken OP codex it's terribad

It's not the most broken thing ever but it's imply not bad in any context, it's hard to be disappointed by every gun in your army being a little better.

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?

If you are within 18" enemy will struggle to bring bear his rapid fire 12" weapons in full effect. It's not just what YOU can reach but what OPPONENT can reach.

Average threat range for cc is 6+7+1=14. Not that far off from 15"...Basically enemy has 42" chance of engaging you from 15" distance without any rerolls. Add 3" more and that means fishing for 11" charge. 1/12 odds...

Another thing of note is that since we're talking about Marines that want to stay stationary anyway given that they're Dark Angels, we could very well be dealing with double-tapping at max range with their bolt weapons.
Doesn't apply for Stalker Rifles since they're heavy of course, but for Bolt Rifles it certainly needs to be taken into consideration.

Better than Stalkers? Maybe not in mirrors but certianly against chaff.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Same with rapid fire at 18" versus rapid fire of 15". How often will you be in 18" but "couldn't" have been in 15"? Some times sure - but all the time?

If you are within 18" enemy will struggle to bring bear his rapid fire 12" weapons in full effect. It's not just what YOU can reach but what OPPONENT can reach.

Average threat range for cc is 6+7+1=14. Not that far off from 15"...Basically enemy has 42" chance of engaging you from 15" distance without any rerolls. Add 3" more and that means fishing for 11" charge. 1/12 odds...

Another thing of note is that since we're talking about Marines that want to stay stationary anyway given that they're Dark Angels, we could very well be dealing with double-tapping at max range with their bolt weapons.
Doesn't apply for Stalker Rifles since they're heavy of course, but for Bolt Rifles it certainly needs to be taken into consideration.

Better than Stalkers? Maybe not in mirrors but certianly against chaff.

yeah, dark angels intercessors are going to be double tapping out to 36 inches. and once your enemy closes you can shift to tactical doctrine for the 1 AP to your bolt rifles without losing anything. over all I think it's a pretty elegant set up. It's not gonna be point and click to victory but I but there's gonna be some savvy DA players who use it well

I know its crazy talk, but two points, can we wait before we say DA are going to be amazing or crappy till after we see what they do on the table top at least ?

For number two, I'd say again, people may get some of the head cannon wrong for Primaris but some people just don't like them very much from their dumb roll out through their actual story drives that feel very formulaic and dull. At this point I know enough to still say I dislike them. It is possible to understand them and still think they are meh. A poorly rolled out excuse to upsize marines without just saying " Hey, we're upsizing marines " in some vain attempt to make people buy whole new armies.

Not to derail the topic at hand just putting that out there. The DA look alright, nothing over the top exciting, nothing awful bad. I doubt they'll be the next big thing but should feel better playing as them to all the die hards and that is a good thing I feel. So long as you feel you have a fighting chance, that's all we can hope for and all I'm hoping for with the Space wolves.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

For number two, I'd say again, people may get some of the head cannon wrong for Primaris but some people just don't like them very much from their dumb roll out through their actual story drives that feel very formulaic and dull. At this point I know enough to still say I dislike them. It is possible to understand them and still think they are meh. A poorly rolled out excuse to upsize marines without just saying " Hey, we're upsizing marines " in some vain attempt to make people buy whole new armies.

Which is the part I don't get.

If you genuinely dislike Primaris, you can still play your old Marines precisely because the background writers were evidently asked to come up with background that would justify both "old" and "new" Marines on the tabletop (irrespective of the quality of said Background).

If Primaris had simply been "here're the new sculpts for Marines, please trash your previous collections", you wouldn't have been able to do that.

The entire point of the background invention of Primaris was to not invalidate old Marines for all the people that like their old Marines. It literally serves no other purpose.