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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?

You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.

Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.

Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.

No I'm absolutely with you in this actually. Pointing Traits and Relics would make for much easier balance, surely. It's funny actually - some relics are "free" (because they don't replace anything) while others cost as much as the item they replace. It's very inconsistent.

I wouldn't mind it if GW limited access to stratagems more - expand the Vigilus model with specific detachments that can use those specific stratagems only. This seems like a great way to stop the most egregious combos and to allow some semblance of balance.

It's not a discussion for this thread, mind, I might make a specific topic around this if I get time.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?

You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.

Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.

Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.

No I'm absolutely with you in this actually. Pointing Traits and Relics would make for much easier balance, surely. It's funny actually - some relics are "free" (because they don't replace anything) while others cost as much as the item they replace. It's very inconsistent.

which is why chainsword relics are some of the best marine weapon relics. they're free and actually pretty bad ass.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

It's almost as if traits, stratagems, army traits and datasheets don't exist in a vacuum but affect each other's efficiency, right?

You see, the whole stratagem system could do with curbing, but that is just me.

Also traits should cost ppm, but that also just is my opinion.

Alas, i seem to stand alone in that.

No I'm absolutely with you in this actually. Pointing Traits and Relics would make for much easier balance, surely. It's funny actually - some relics are "free" (because they don't replace anything) while others cost as much as the item they replace. It's very inconsistent.

I wouldn't mind it if GW limited access to stratagems more - expand the Vigilus model with specific detachments that can use those specific stratagems only. This seems like a great way to stop the most egregious combos and to allow some semblance of balance.

It's not a discussion for this thread, mind, I might make a specific topic around this if I get time.

But it is ,indirectly the discrepancy of value and utility due to seemingly mid edition change of design concept and no propper communication between the Designers of various books has in the very least led to dubious releases and in the worst cases lead to massive spikes spread unfavourable amongst factions.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.

The Genestealer Cults can certainly do it (different mechanism but functionally similar). As an Ork you have Da Jump with Evil Sunz and rerolls - 1st Turn "deep strike" charge goodness that I do not begrudge.

I've been running Deathwing squads because I like them - heck I even took fifteen Deathwing terminators to a recent tournament and I often have them in my pick-up games. Trust me - while the changes to bolters means that they can drop in and clear away Boyz with gunfire in the end they struggle against Orks - especially Lootas.

This stratagem is indeed a good thing and I am going to try it out. My point about DW Knights being stuck in no-man's land was saying that the Strat will help prevent that. Happy? We can actually agree on some points. We can go back and forth about whether it is "point and click." We could redefine what point and click means as our argument progresses. Probably not helpful.

The Strat as printed is certainly more nuanced that what was published in the September WD Dark Angels narrative mission where you just dropped in and could move D6 inches. The new Strat is closer to the old teleport homer that the Ravenwing had in previous editions. In fact, its pretty much the same (place the teleporting unit within 6 inches of the unit as long as it started on the board this turn). All that to say I am happy that the designers have gone with something fluffy and effective. Just how effective in practice we have yet to see.

Warm regards,

T2B

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.

funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.

funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!

All for it, otk turns, regardless if melee psy or shooting, are waaayyy to plentifull.

I'm sorry for digging this post, especially if there's already been an answer for this but I've got my hand on Ritual of the damned and not only there's no point value for Lazarus, but there's also no point value for the new Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition.
I've seen on warhammer community that they told us that Lazarus was 105 pts, but anybody have seen anywhere the value of that bolt carbine with special issue ammunition ?
Thanks in advance.

Callidus assassin on average drops 6.5 inches away. Also +x to charge rolls is functionally the same as deploying closer in most circumstances, which loads of armies have.

This supplement is a joke.

EricDominus wrote:
This supplement is a joke.

Agreed signed a salty 1ksons player.

 Galas wrote:
So has the Chapter Tactic of DA (And GK) been improved like all the others for Space Marines or it is still the same?

DA Grim Resolve hasn't changed however it now effects all Dark Angels units. Tank gun lines like predators etc being able to get the captain aura without the points investment is a nice added bonus.

The real strength for DA is now having access to Combat Doctrines - there super trait for extended range is also really nice but range in general was never a real problem for them though

The Salt Mine wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
This supplement is a joke.

Agreed signed a salty 1ksons player.

Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.

Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.

I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!

WhiteDog wrote:
I'm sorry for digging this post, especially if there's already been an answer for this but I've got my hand on Ritual of the damned and not only there's no point value for Lazarus, but there's also no point value for the new Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition.
I've seen on warhammer community that they told us that Lazarus was 105 pts, but anybody have seen anywhere the value of that bolt carbine with special issue ammunition ?
Thanks in advance.

Not sure what weapon you mean here? If it's the Eliminator Sgt weapon it's likely been missed off the list along with the las fusil. Both were missed from the BA points list as well and not even corrected in the Blood of Baal FAQ.

 Stux wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
This supplement is a joke.

Agreed signed a salty 1ksons player.

Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.

Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.

I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!

That is great that you are happy! I guess when you get fed gak long enough then a frosted turd looks great. We did get some ok stuff to be fair but nothing that is going to make 1ksons competitive other than the supreme command detachment you were already seeing in most lists. You have to dedicate entire detachments to a cult to get access to one new power, relic, or warlord trait. Other releases can pick and choose their new toys and don't have the problem of good powers being stuck with gak traits and relics or good relics being stuck with the gak powers. Not to mention in their infinite wisdom they made cultists and tzaangors not allowed to be effected by the new cult stuff so half of our army doesn't even benefit from the new stuff.

Now lets get to the strats. Risen Rubricae is great if you get first turn. If you don't you just served up your squad to your opponent on a silver platter. Sure you can use the wl trait to redeploy them to a more safer spot in your deployment zone but then you are already on the back foot by wasting a cp. Infernal Fusillade is the only shoot twice strat in the game that I know of that doesn't allow you to move. I don't know about you but I havn't played a game yet where my rubrics get to stand still and shoot all that often. Its made even worse by all of our new movement shenanigans specifically stating that they count as having moved. Again if you get first turn and can use it on a squad of dudes in your opponents face great! I don't like designing my list around getting first turn. Indomitable foes is neat but 1 wound 3++ isn't what it used to be with the offensive output most armies can muster now a days. Yoked automata can be interesting with the Scarab Occult but slinging my rubrics into close combat is the last thing I want to do.

All in all are they slight buffs yes. Does it make it to were we are going to see 1ksons on the top tables in competitive events outside of supreme command probably not. Hell I don't think its enough to bring pure 1ksons to even middle of the pack. All in all I just feel like it was a filler supplement for our filler codex. I just don't think GW has a clear focus on what they want to do with the faction. It probably never should have been made its on codex honestly.

The Salt Mine wrote:

 Stux wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
This supplement is a joke.

Agreed signed a salty 1ksons player.

Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.

Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.

I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!

That is great that you are happy! I guess when you get fed gak long enough then a frosted turd looks great. We did get some ok stuff to be fair but nothing that is going to make 1ksons competitive other than the supreme command detachment you were already seeing in most lists. You have to dedicate entire detachments to a cult to get access to one new power, relic, or warlord trait. Other releases can pick and choose their new toys and don't have the problem of good powers being stuck with gak traits and relics or good relics being stuck with the gak powers. Not to mention in their infinite wisdom they made cultists and tzaangors not allowed to be effected by the new cult stuff so half of our army doesn't even benefit from the new stuff.

Now lets get to the strats. Risen Rubricae is great if you get first turn. If you don't you just served up your squad to your opponent on a silver platter. Sure you can use the wl trait to redeploy them to a more safer spot in your deployment zone but then you are already on the back foot by wasting a cp. Infernal Fusillade is the only shoot twice strat in the game that I know of that doesn't allow you to move. I don't know about you but I havn't played a game yet where my rubrics get to stand still and shoot all that often. Its made even worse by all of our new movement shenanigans specifically stating that they count as having moved. Again if you get first turn and can use it on a squad of dudes in your opponents face great! I don't like designing my list around getting first turn. Indomitable foes is neat but 1 wound 3++ isn't what it used to be with the offensive output most armies can muster now a days. Yoked automata can be interesting with the Scarab Occult but slinging my rubrics into close combat is the last thing I want to do.

All in all are they slight buffs yes. Does it make it to were we are going to see 1ksons on the top tables in competitive events outside of supreme command probably not. Hell I don't think its enough to bring pure 1ksons to even middle of the pack. All in all I just feel like it was a filler supplement for our filler codex. I just don't think GW has a clear focus on what they want to do with the faction. It probably never should have been made its on codex honestly.

The sad truth is GW clearly intends for the entire Chaos faction to be played as a soup army for the rest 8th. Every major rule update to the Imperium faction after SM 2.0 (the supplements, BA, DA, GK, Sisters) have explicit rules that encourage playing mono faction. While Chaos rules actually encourage the complete opposite by not introducing combat doctrine equivalent, not fixing god awful legions, not having god awful legion traits affect all units, but instead introducing incredibly powerful rules for very specific units in god awful legions (see night lord and word bearers.) Nothing PA encouraged you to take a full night lord army, but it definitely makes you want to take a night lord warp talons detachment in your AL and IW army.

This is the way Chaos is built, and why Chaos psychic powers are designed to work across multiple books. And it completely screws over mono-faction chaos players

Yeah I got that feeling too. While I don't hate soup nor do I even hate it being the most optimal way to play the game. I still think they should have done a better job of bringing up the other codices. Space marines should not be the only faction that can be highly competitive inside their own codex.

 Continuity wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

 Stux wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

EricDominus wrote:
This supplement is a joke.

Agreed signed a salty 1ksons player.

Thousand Sons got Da Jump, effectively the pre nerf Raven Guard strat, and several other nice toys.

Yeah, they're not top tier. Marines are busted. But theres really nothing to complain about. The solution to Codex Marines being OP is not to being everything up to the same level.

I'm pretty happy with what my Sons got!

That is great that you are happy! I guess when you get fed gak long enough then a frosted turd looks great. We did get some ok stuff to be fair but nothing that is going to make 1ksons competitive other than the supreme command detachment you were already seeing in most lists. You have to dedicate entire detachments to a cult to get access to one new power, relic, or warlord trait. Other releases can pick and choose their new toys and don't have the problem of good powers being stuck with gak traits and relics or good relics being stuck with the gak powers. Not to mention in their infinite wisdom they made cultists and tzaangors not allowed to be effected by the new cult stuff so half of our army doesn't even benefit from the new stuff.

Now lets get to the strats. Risen Rubricae is great if you get first turn. If you don't you just served up your squad to your opponent on a silver platter. Sure you can use the wl trait to redeploy them to a more safer spot in your deployment zone but then you are already on the back foot by wasting a cp. Infernal Fusillade is the only shoot twice strat in the game that I know of that doesn't allow you to move. I don't know about you but I havn't played a game yet where my rubrics get to stand still and shoot all that often. Its made even worse by all of our new movement shenanigans specifically stating that they count as having moved. Again if you get first turn and can use it on a squad of dudes in your opponents face great! I don't like designing my list around getting first turn. Indomitable foes is neat but 1 wound 3++ isn't what it used to be with the offensive output most armies can muster now a days. Yoked automata can be interesting with the Scarab Occult but slinging my rubrics into close combat is the last thing I want to do.

All in all are they slight buffs yes. Does it make it to were we are going to see 1ksons on the top tables in competitive events outside of supreme command probably not. Hell I don't think its enough to bring pure 1ksons to even middle of the pack. All in all I just feel like it was a filler supplement for our filler codex. I just don't think GW has a clear focus on what they want to do with the faction. It probably never should have been made its on codex honestly.

The sad truth is GW clearly intends for the entire Chaos faction to be played as a soup army for the rest 8th. Every major rule update to the Imperium faction after SM 2.0 (the supplements, BA, DA, GK, Sisters) have explicit rules that encourage playing mono faction. While Chaos rules actually encourage the complete opposite by not introducing combat doctrine equivalent, not fixing god awful legions, not having god awful legion traits affect all units, but instead introducing incredibly powerful rules for very specific units in god awful legions (see night lord and word bearers.) Nothing PA encouraged you to take a full night lord army, but it definitely makes you want to take a night lord warp talons detachment in your AL and IW army.

This is the way Chaos is built, and why Chaos psychic powers are designed to work across multiple books. And it completely screws over mono-faction chaos players

I fear you're right. And I fething hate it. I don't want to soup my Night Lords who, in the fluff, are notorious for not playing well with others (they even routinely tell Abaddon to go feth himself when he calls on them to join a Black Crusade).

The legions should be just as playable mono faction as the loyalists.

Slipspace wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
I'm sorry for digging this post, especially if there's already been an answer for this but I've got my hand on Ritual of the damned and not only there's no point value for Lazarus, but there's also no point value for the new Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition.
I've seen on warhammer community that they told us that Lazarus was 105 pts, but anybody have seen anywhere the value of that bolt carbine with special issue ammunition ?
Thanks in advance.

Not sure what weapon you mean here? If it's the Eliminator Sgt weapon it's likely been missed off the list along with the las fusil. Both were missed from the BA points list as well and not even corrected in the Blood of Baal FAQ.

I'm talking about the new weapon that primaris master can take and that is in the new kit that came out with the psychic awakening (Lazarus / Primaris Master) : the Bolt carbine with special issue ammunition (24" assault 2 S4 PA -2 D1).
It's the new weapon that came out with the book and it's not even in the book, just like Lazarus btw.

Jimbobbyish wrote:
does the 6" deep strike deathwing stratagem ignore the 12" deep strike denial zone from Infiltrator Squads?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

I'm curious as to why.

Which rules apply first, or take presidence over the other?

I predict some minor arguements are sbout to occur in my local club and would love some way of resolving them with a solid defendable answer.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.

funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!

Don't bloodletters spend 2CP to deep strike and charge 3d6+1"?

the_scotsman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Which means that I cannot have Sammael in Sableclaw and I now have to send him into the heart of the Ork horde to deliver a unit best equipped to deal with low-model count elites. Don't get me wrong - I like the new stratagem. I have been running DW Knights and most of the time they end up eating my CP and being stuck out in no-man's land after a failed charge. Against SM lists the strat could be great and I am re-examining my lists to see how to incorporate it. Another downside, though, is that they really need character support or the Righteous Repugnance power to achieve their full effect. They are not point and click.

You won't use the stratagem if it doesn't suit the game. The fact though is that DA are the only faction that allows a unit to drop within 7" of the enemy and still charge. Doubt those DW Knights are going to be stuck in no man's land after this. If that's your concern use the stratagem on DW Termies instead and gun down your foe.

Righteous Repugnance/Character support is the icing on a very spicy cake.

Again, I'd say it is pretty point and click, actually. This combo is by no means difficult to pull off. Certainly no more so than any other deep strike ability. To maximise efficiencies you may want to add another piece to the puzzle but it certainly isn't needed.

funny how some factions don't need to allocate ressources for something like that, whilest others need dedicated formations and warlord traits aswell as more stratagems and points in form of equipment for something like that.

I know, right? I demand we nerf Bloodletters this instant!

Don't bloodletters spend 2CP to deep strike and charge 3d6+1"?

Don't DA have to spend CP to do it?

Chaoticbroth wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
does the 6" deep strike deathwing stratagem ignore the 12" deep strike denial zone from Infiltrator Squads?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

I'm curious as to why.

Which rules apply first, or take presidence over the other?

I predict some minor arguements are sbout to occur in my local club and would love some way of resolving them with a solid defendable answer.

On the basis of date of publication, and the necessity to spend command points, I would argue that Combined Assault takes precedence over Omni-scramblers, but I can hardly be assumed to lack bias. I feel there will be heated debates about this one for sure until we get a clarification.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Chaoticbroth wrote:

Jimbobbyish wrote:
does the 6" deep strike deathwing stratagem ignore the 12" deep strike denial zone from Infiltrator Squads?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

I'm curious as to why.

Which rules apply first, or take presidence over the other?

I predict some minor arguements are sbout to occur in my local club and would love some way of resolving them with a solid defendable answer.

On the basis of date of publication, and the necessity to spend command points, I would argue that Combined Assault takes precedence over Omni-scramblers, but I can hardly be assumed to lack bias. I feel there will be heated debates about this one for sure until we get a clarification.

Already been addressed, Omni takes precedence.

This came up with the Infiltrators and the Mawlock almost immediately after the Infiltrators came out, it's been answered for a while.

Fair enough. Which FAQ is that?

Unfortunately, they didn't clarify in the latest FAQ, so if any of you know where I can find the Infiltrators/Mawlock clarification, I'd be eternally grateful.