What piece of lore would you like to see removed from 40k completely?
For me its "The Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics", because one its a Techpriest trying to explain technological advancement with "It's magic!" and I like the idea of Ork technology being sufficiently advanced technology that Humans, Tau, and Eldar can't understand. Additionally I like the idea of Ork Big Meks having Brainboy Schematics in their Genetic Memory that gets unlocked once the Orks have enough infrastructure (i.e. scrap) to support it.
The life cycle of an Ork is best not thought about. The fact that they bleed red/crimson/green depending on the author is one of my least favorites.
Machine Spirits I'm fine with if they didn't actually exist, kind of. Like having a genetically modified brain running a tank instead of AI is cool. But then saying every simple piece of technology has one its kind of nuts. I am thinking back to Only War RPG's book where there is a pen that if it runs out of ink there is a litany of repair you have to say to get it to work again.
Perpetuals. I am not DontEatRawHagis, you see, I am John Gramaticus!
Newcrons, perpetuals, every retcon of Ollanius Pius being something other than a guardsman, Ynnari, Primaris, Primarchs returning. There's so many to choose from.
Not so much "gone", but explained better:
"Techpriests are the remote overseers of the Skitarii".
God am I tired of people forgetting that there is a Primus and Alpha-Primus. Techpriests are, effectively, the Inquisitors of the Mechanicus: they can requisition forces at will.
I would love to see Tyranids lose the Hive Mind and have some personality.
In my head-canon a Tyranid starts its life as a Ripper, and gradually grows into a gaunt, then a Warrior-form, and then finally a Hive Tyrant if it survives, and successfully dominates its brethren that survive and become specialized morphs like Raveners, Carnifexes, and so on.
As a Hive Tyrant it can head off and start its own hive, and so propagate its genetic material. Of course, the first order of business is producing lots of Rippers, which can then either be raised as warriors, or flesh-crafted into bio-weapons and grafted onto their surviving brethren.
Prolonged exposure to Tyranids causes insanity, as the grotesque vileness of their flesh-crafting art and the constant background surusses of their telepathy warp and infect their psyches.
Genestealers are a bio-weapon that grafts Tyranid DNA onto alien subjects like humans, and Genestealers are both susceptible to Tyranid telepathy and rather annoyed by that.
Agreed about the perpetuals. After the insanity that happened in 2019 on this forum, the perpetuals, sensei and everything else relating to “living forever” in 40k can go burn in a fire.
DontEatRawHagis wrote: ...Machine Spirits I'm fine with if they didn't actually exist, kind of. Like having a genetically modified brain running a tank instead of AI is cool. But then saying every simple piece of technology has one its kind of nuts. I am thinking back to Only War RPG's book where there is a pen that if it runs out of ink there is a litany of repair you have to say to get it to work again...
Machine Spirits are supposed to be an allegory. The litanies and rituals and incense are supposed to be mnemonic techniques to make sure people perform maintenance correctly. It'd be great if the writers would stop taking it literally and saying "yeah, everything we say must be taken assuming a George Lucas-ian level of wide-eyed innocence among the audience, nobody ever says anything that could be in any way factually incorrect, the narrator is always right, all this stuff does have actual super-powerful AI that you need to keep happy to keep it running."
I don't know that I want anything gone so much as I want things re-done. The idea of the Orks having a gestalt psychic field is fine when you're looking at the Inquisitor/FFGRPG rules where a "shoota" is a gun that fires bullets but somehow jams less than it should given its shoddy construction when there's an Ork using it, but becomes silly when 1d4chan starts pushing it to logical extremes and claiming you could convince an Ork a stick was a gun and it'd shoot bullets. The Ultramarines are fine when they're arrogant inflexible sticklers for the rules determined to impose their will on everyone else (ally or enemy), but become irritating when the writers start saying "And yes, they're actually always correct because they're our front-cover protagonist people, hurrah for the Ultramarines, let's put them in charge of the rest of you losers." The Eldar playing a complicated game of guesswork with more information about possible future directions of everything is cool, the Dawn of War writers giving them the inability to forsee the actions of Space Marines and giving last-minute "you fool! how dare you interrupt my prophecy!" lectures while dying in the first act is silly.
So I think I'd like to delete the designated-protagonist-shiny-perfection hat and the designated-baddie-idiotic-twit hat from the lore. Don't get rid of any people or forces or anything, just stop putting people in those two hats.
Chaos Orks and GSC Orks. The fusion of factions was a good idea in theory, but in practice it just weakened the position of both factions. So glad that rubbish is gone. I hope it stays that way.
Kanluwen wrote: Not so much "gone", but explained better:
"Techpriests are the remote overseers of the Skitarii".
God am I tired of people forgetting that there is a Primus and Alpha-Primus. Techpriests are, effectively, the Inquisitors of the Mechanicus: they can requisition forces at will.
Tech-Priests are the officer caste of the Mechanicum. There are Tech-Priests who are overseers of Skitarii, yes, but that's because the Skitarii aren't represented in the upper echelons of the command structure, they may still have officers of their own but they aren't put in charge of large independent deployments. And depending on your source (I think 30k talks about them more than 40k) the Mechanicum does have its own internal Inquisition in the Malagra, a rank of Tech-Priest charged with hunting down tech-heresy.
Actually thought of a thing I'd love to get rid of while writing this post: Corpuscarii/Fulgurites, because it breaks immersion for me to have an expendable melee unit of tech-priests. There should be a unit of servitors or automata in the suicide melee role, they shouldn't be part of the leadership caste. It's like saying "Here's your Imperial Guard Codex, now welcome your new shock melee squad, the Lieutenants! There are twenty of them and they have refractor fields and power mauls!"
I'm not that deep into the lore, but from what I read so far I would like it if the sometimes mentioned metaphor of "Astra Militarum = Anvil, Space Marines = Hammer" would also reflect more in the lore.
So in other words instead of:
"100 Imperial Guard Regiments attacking the rebelling Heretics on the Moon XY were slaughtered by the enemy, than some 100 Space Marines flew in and killed every enemy. Hurray Space Marines!"
more something like "The irresistible Astra Militarum attack on the Moon XY was slowed down by a cunningly installed minefield in orbit hindering the mass deployment and turning the battlefield in a bloody stalemate, as the Guard could only reinforce their trenches with 1000 men per day. The tide was turned by 100 Space Marines infiltrating the enemy command center and remotely detonating the minefield. The subsequent planetfall of 100 Imperial Guard regiments within 10 hours ruthlessly crushed any enemy resistence."
=> Space Marines can still save the day and be the deciding factor in large battles, but in the end, the WAR is won by throwing some billion Guardsmen on the problem.
Everything and anything related to the shift between the setting of 40k as an unreliable narrator to an infallable perfect historical record kept by omniscient gods that remember 10,000 years ago with perfect clarity.
So basically, the Horus Heresy, Machine Spirits as mentioned above, eternals, primarchs existing in the modern lore, cawl, etc.
It's gotten to the point where we have this "vast universe' where it feels like 20 people matter and decide every event.
Kanluwen wrote: Not so much "gone", but explained better:
"Techpriests are the remote overseers of the Skitarii".
God am I tired of people forgetting that there is a Primus and Alpha-Primus. Techpriests are, effectively, the Inquisitors of the Mechanicus: they can requisition forces at will.
Tech-Priests are the officer caste of the Mechanicum.
Not really? It's hard to nail down exactly what a quasi-religious organization has. Techpriest Dominus(which, remember, are supposed to just be the highest ranking Techpriests in a warzone) are the only currently listed "Command" for Skitarii.
There are Tech-Priests who are overseers of Skitarii, yes, but that's because the Skitarii aren't represented in the upper echelons of the command structure, they may still have officers of their own but they aren't put in charge of large independent deployments.
That's literally the opposite of what it says about the Alpha Primus in C: AdMech.
The most blessed of Skitarii pass a point called the Crux Mechanicus, their body more machine than flesh. Those that reach this stage of mechamorphosis are known as Skitarii Alphas. Some go on to attain the rank of Alpha Primus--overseers who can operate independently for years if necessary, as solid and reliable as the titanium, steel, and iron that replaces their flesh.
That is under the Skitarii Vanguard entry, because someone likely goofed bringing it over from the Skitarii book(p8-9), where it was in the same space as the fluff blurb that is in "Blessings of the Machine God"...which is some weird copypasta vomit of the original Ranger+Vanguard entries mixed with the stuff from p8-9 of the Skitarii Codex.
And depending on your source (I think 30k talks about them more than 40k) the Mechanicum does have its own internal Inquisition in the Malagra, a rank of Tech-Priest charged with hunting down tech-heresy.
That's cool and all, but it doesn't change what I said. Techpriests have broad latitudes of power within the Adeptus Mechanicus simply because they're Techpriests. It's effectively the same thing as the Inquisition, where you have power because you're an Inquisitor.
Actually thought of a thing I'd love to get rid of while writing this post: Corpuscarii/Fulgurites, because it breaks immersion for me to have an expendable melee unit of tech-priests. There should be a unit of servitors or automata in the suicide melee role, they shouldn't be part of the leadership caste. It's like saying "Here's your Imperial Guard Codex, now welcome your new shock melee squad, the Lieutenants! There are twenty of them and they have refractor fields and power mauls!"
Electropriests aren't part of the leadership caste from what it seems...but even then, tabletop performance isn't the same as fluff. Fluff they're supposed to be these crazy priests who can shrug off shots thanks to their electric boogaloo or sapping the life electricity from someone to revitalize themselves.
the_scotsman wrote: Everything and anything related to the shift between the setting of 40k as an unreliable narrator to an infallable perfect historical record kept by omniscient gods that remember 10,000 years ago with perfect clarity.
So basically, the Horus Heresy, Machine Spirits as mentioned above, eternals, primarchs existing in the modern lore, cawl, etc.
It's gotten to the point where we have this "vast universe' where it feels like 20 people matter and decide every event.
This. Bloody hate everything that has happened in that vein. Hate the HH books that describe everything with almost pornographic detail and clarity. No, just no. 10,000 years is longer than we have recorded history in our entire existence as a species. Why do we know with so much detail and clarity what happened that long ago? The appeal of a lot of things in fiction is mystery, your imagination tends to create something greater than whatever they put into canon. "Closed doors" as Toumos Pirinen put it, are closed for a reason. They are there just as plot hooks and sometimes there is no grand plan to open them.
Luckily there are still a few mysterious things in 40k, but we all know GW won't be able to contain themselves and pull back the proverbial curtain on literally everything because we need to know every detail about everything...
More of a general tendency than a specific thing, but... it seems that every time the lower classes of the Imperium seek to revolt against their oppressors, it turns out that they are being manipulated by Chaos, Tyranids, etc. Oh, isn't that convenient? That means we no longer have to sympathize with their plight, and can now root for their crushing defeat! That means the Imperium's fascist and theocratic dystopia was justified all along! Because you see, if the Imperium weren't so genocidally brutal, it would never stand a chance!
It's almost like the writers themselves think that the Imperium is the best possible regime one can have in this grimdark setting. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Screw that. Show us that there can be dissent against the Imperium that isn't tied to those who seek to destroy humankind.
The completely arbitrary change to Tyranids that created narvhals and meant that they no longer drift through the warp.but then giving warp travel (through the dolmen gates) to the newcrons over their hyper tech inertialess drives...
Just put them back to the way they were. This was just change for change sake.
I would Also flip the newcron story and have the dynasty elements be rebellious parts of the ctan controlled slave forces, but leave the core of the old cron story intact with none of this turnabout ctan enslavement - the shards in the vehicle could be deliberately placed there, or they could be shards of enemy ctan enslaved by another ctan.
The autarch. Nothing has managed to surpass the original Eldar Background and everything added since then has been tacked on.
Exarchs were always the preeminent Eldar warriors with the Phoenix lords at the Pinnacle.
The autarch bypasses the sacrifice and tragedy of falling to a path and outdoes an exarch with none of the downsides, making a mockery of the path system and creating marysue characters.
I would change primaris to being JUST the Rubicon - an upgrade to all marines rolled out to chapters, so people aren't being told to change their army, but slowly upgrade and evolve it. No need for rando new units with dumb weapons, just updated models of existing units that are the upgraded marines.
I would pull back on the immortal primarchs and OTT crap around the emperor. It doesn't make for a satisfying setting when one faction is clearly the most powerful And should always win. No one wants to play the loser.
In general I would also stop adaptively distilling armies down to single note shadows. Successive authors have simplified armies beyond their original version and made them too shallow. Now every founding legion is a planet of hats - stealth hat, fortifications hat, berserker hat. Khorne used to be the god of martial pride and honour not just slaughter. The space Wolves didn't need to ride wolves and literally posess ice blade weapons and FREEZE guns....
Basically every time a neat idea is blown so out of proportion that it becomes completely ridiculous.
Like the Sororitas' super special bolts that are so special that it takes an artificer a lifetime to make them.
How can you become skilled at making bullets if you spend your life making only one? Is that why it takes so long? They have no clue what they're doing so they just keep messing up? Or do they get some basic training making a few thousand regular bolts and then decide "I'm gonna make a really, really good one now"?
If you told me only the most veteran guys get the honor of doing it and it takes them several weeks or maybe months... okay, that's a pretty cool concept, but the idea of a skilled artisan wasting his entire life on one piece of ammunition is unfathomably dumb, even for the Imperium. I don't care how retrograde and inefficient it's supposed to be, this is beyond stupid.
I've never seen why Autarchs are seen as better than Exarchs, they do different things lorewise. Poor game representation perhaps but not bad fluff.
The idea of bullets that take a lifetime to make is ridiculous though unless they can all return to the gun after hitting something like weird thor hammers.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Chaos Orks and GSC Orks. The fusion of factions was a good idea in theory, but in practice it just weakened the position of both factions. So glad that rubbish is gone. I hope it stays that way.
Everything about Necrons after their 3rd/4th edition Codex. I think from a fluff perspective they worked much better when they were soulless personalityless automatons enslaved to the will of lovecraftian star gods than they do as space egyptians. That being said, I love the unit diversity and model line, keep those.
After the insanity that happened in 2019 on this forum, the perpetuals, sensei and everything else relating to “living forever” in 40k can go burn in a fire.
I was on a bit of a break from dakka at the time, what happened?
would Also flip the newcron story and have the dynasty elements be rebellious parts of the ctan controlled slave forces, but leave the core of the old cron story intact with none of this turnabout ctan enslavement - the shards in the vehicle could be deliberately placed there, or they could be shards of enemy ctan enslaved by another ctan.
this I could get behind, but I would need the dynasties to have much more in the way of fluff-dysfunction. Clearly they are malfunctioning/exhibiting the effects of aberrant AI if they are developing personality.
It's really more Space Tomb Kings than Space Egyptians. You know, a few powerful necromancers controlling armies of undead. Except the necromancers are using technology and the undead are robots.
Tech-Priests aren't the Inquisition of the AdMech. That's the Lords Dragon.
Anyway, it's a toss up between:
Machine Spirits are real, and literally every piece of tech (even purely mechanical ones) has a machine spirit. Machine spirits should be used as an allegorical thing (as described above) and to highlight another facet of Imperial hypocrisy (ie. artificial intelligence is 100% bad, except for these holy "machine spirits" which totally aren't AI, honest!).
The bit where something that happened during the Horus Heresy is what alerted the 'Nids to our galaxy. Talk about shrinking the universe... sheesh...
chaos0xomega wrote: Everything about Necrons after their 3rd/4th edition Codex. I think from a fluff perspective they worked much better when they were soulless personalityless automatons enslaved to the will of lovecraftian star gods than they do as space egyptians. That being said, I love the unit diversity and model line, keep those.
After the insanity that happened in 2019 on this forum, the perpetuals, sensei and everything else relating to “living forever” in 40k can go burn in a fire.
I was on a bit of a break from dakka at the time, what happened?
would Also flip the newcron story and have the dynasty elements be rebellious parts of the ctan controlled slave forces, but leave the core of the old cron story intact with none of this turnabout ctan enslavement - the shards in the vehicle could be deliberately placed there, or they could be shards of enemy ctan enslaved by another ctan.
this I could get behind, but I would need the dynasties to have much more in the way of fluff-dysfunction. Clearly they are malfunctioning/exhibiting the effects of aberrant AI if they are developing personality.
I think there's actually a lot of interesting story in having the necrons have rebel factions trying to poorly reclaim their dynastic culture while hunted as 'aberrations' by the rest of the ctan slaves.
It actually gives you a sympathy for then and creates something of a potential neutral faction rather than all encompassing destruction. Like the inverse of dark Eldar being bad Eldar.
I liked the konrad curze novel. I think it showed him in an interesting light.
Spoiler:
basically, his prison coffin that sangy threw into space is picked up by a salvage ship. he commandeers the ship to tsagualsa to reunite the night lords. told simultaneously with depictions of him talking to an effigy of the emperor that hes stitched together from corpses.
Kal Draigo going into the warp and fight demons in their turf, every fluff Matty Ward writes. There is a reason GW don’t publish the author behind their codexes, instead it publish the whole team.
I would remove Primaris Marines from existence. They are most nonsensical, non lore friendly thing. I do agree that Space Marines needed Primaris Marines stat line from the beginning, but this is just silly. At worst just call them Thunder Warriors where some tech priest had found ancient template which Emperor had used and simply started making those warriors again.
Then Crawl and all the other tech heresies and bro moments when Imperium and Necrons fight together or any such similar nonsense. When lore is saved, I would then rewrite Chaos in order not to be a mere parody of its past sense, but actually as something which makes sense. I would also then create logical story line where after initial Black Crusade Guiliman is declared as an enemy of the Imperium for his countless heretical acts and damn him for being a product of a vile warp sorcery. GW writers have no clue what they are doing with their lore anymore. It is too big for them to understand and they just keep writing utter nonsense after utter nonsense.
mrFickle wrote: Orks talking like football hooligans in bad English
Shoota, Choppa, Ere we go!, Gitz
It’s stupid, they should just be mean AF, not the comic relief. 40k doesn’t need a comic relief army
Ever been started on by a Football Hooligan?
It's really not funny at all.
Haha sure but what I mean is they are an alien species and their language and culture is presented like something out of a Viz comic.
If they want somehtigg by silly they should do a gretchin army but the Orks should a darker. Grim darker.
I think the Ork accent is perfect for their aesthetic. Because, in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, the only people having a good time are the Orkz. They aren't fighting to survive, or the expand their influence, or to defend their territories. They fight because it's what they love to do.
It also gives them a very distinct identity from Tolkien-esque/Fantasy Orcs, which I enjoy immensely.
Not so much a removal but a rewrite. I wish Horus's fall was more drawn out and more of his own volition, with input from Erebus, rather than based around a fever dream.
mrFickle wrote:Haha sure but what I mean is they are an alien species and their language and culture is presented like something out of a Viz comic.
If they want somehtigg by silly they should do a gretchin army but the Orks should a darker. Grim darker.
Orks do have their own language, as shown in the Guy Haley Ork stories. Only a minority of them are capable of speaking Low Gothic, and it comes out as you describe. The rest are only saying a set of weird syllables and grunting noises.
Big Mac wrote:Kal Draigo going into the warp and fight demons in their turf, every fluff Matty Ward writes. There is a reason GW don’t publish the author behind their codexes, instead it publish the whole team.
Haley, a generally good author (he can actually make the Blood Angels interesting, which is almost like turning water into wine) obviously isn't a Night Lords fan, doesn't understand them and their existing lore, and made little effort to learn such things. Examples:
He shows Curze as seeing multiple futures: Curze always only saw the worst possible future. That's one of the things that drove him mad.
He shows Sevatar freely using his psychic powers though hiding them: Sevatar was a repressed psycker. He never used his powers purposefully because he was afraid they would be discovered or grow in power.
Haley portrays Nostromo as a oppressively hot planet: Nostromo has always been portrayed as a cold, rainy planet. He also portrays it as lit by many lights. Nostromo is a primarily dark world. If it was lit up by lightning why did Nostromans develop the ability to see in darkness?
These are some examples but much of my problem is just the portrayal of Curze and his legion. They are shown as inferior and dolts. Allowing things like letting the Raven Guard get the drop on them. He has Curze crucifying rats for feths sake.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I liked the konrad curze novel. I think it showed him in an interesting light.
Spoiler:
basically, his prison coffin that sangy threw into space is picked up by a salvage ship. he commandeers the ship to tsagualsa to reunite the night lords. told simultaneously with depictions of him talking to an effigy of the emperor that hes stitched together from corpses.
it was pretty good I thought.
Yes it might be ok if you're not a fan of the legion, just like St. Anger might be an ok album if you've never heard Master of Puppets.
Okay I admit it the Orks are great I just wanted think of something to say other than Primaris. I’ve seen people have much better ideas for how they could have been introduced on these forums. How did they get it so wrong
-Guardsman- wrote: More of a general tendency than a specific thing, but... it seems that every time the lower classes of the Imperium seek to revolt against their oppressors, it turns out that they are being manipulated by Chaos, Tyranids, etc. Oh, isn't that convenient? That means we no longer have to sympathize with their plight, and can now root for their crushing defeat! That means the Imperium's fascist and theocratic dystopia was justified all along! Because you see, if the Imperium weren't so genocidally brutal, it would never stand a chance!
It's almost like the writers themselves think that the Imperium is the best possible regime one can have in this grimdark setting. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Screw that. Show us that there can be dissent against the Imperium that isn't tied to those who seek to destroy humankind.
.
I think there's a mixture of cart and horse here.
Sometimes, brutal aspects of the imperium are explained by the crazy circumstances that created it: See the Men of Iron creating the imperium's supersitition regarding AI.
There's also the in-universe explanation of their repressive nature explained by these forces that work to overthrow the imperium. Does the fact that rebellion always turns out to be based around chaos, tau and tyranids because those forces are 'inevitable' or because people will only be able to meaningfully rebel if they're given power to do so by SOMETHING? After all, a rebellion backed by the genestealer cult hive mind is far more likely to succeed than a rebellion backed by mere humans.
also all those things always happen because that's what GW makes models for :/
But hey, in the latest book we've got Tau rebels too!
I'm fine with Primaris, because I feel like they will just replace normal Space Marines and they won't really matter after that. All the Mary Sue-ness of not having the mutations of previous SM will be gradually replaced and we'll get Death Company Primaris for Blood Angels and such.
I definitely would like to remove every time Chaos uses the Orks/Other Xenos to further their goals. Because man I hate how Armageddon/Ullanor is less Orks fighting for their homeworld. Angron hijacking it so that the Imperium can fight World Eaters makes me kind of upset. Though if it changes Armageddon from Imperium VS Orks to World Eaters VS Orks I'd be happy/fine.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'm a big night lords fan. I didn't notice the things you mentioned, but they are fair observations.
I did like the portrayal of him as a madman though.. a bit like joker.
I also like st anger in its own way...
Yes I felt the portrayal of his madness was one of the things Haley handled well, for the most part. But his overall portrayal of the legion felt like he wasn't a fan and was just writing the book as a "job" to me.
The St. Anger thing is probably a generational thing. It just doesn't do it for an old metalhead who grew up in the 80s.
I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.
Ernestas wrote: I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
Ernestas wrote: I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
Acerbus and Vandred and Skraivok and Savasdus and Hekatos would disagree with you.
Ernestas wrote: I agree with that sentiment. There is nothing worse than a writer who doesn't like what he is writing about. You get then stories where one primarch/faction is super awesome and kicks ungodly amount of ass while another looks like incompetent fool. As for Horus Heresy books, fall to Chaos is in general weakly portrayed aspect of those books. The issue is how massive Horus Heresy is and GW needed to make it into a lot bigger project than they did. Each Legion getting their own omnibus/trilogies. A good example is Fulgrim and his legion. Fulgrim just fell to Slaaneshy demon and it felt forced, rapid with little resistance from Fulgrim. In addition, major plot points like he had killed a bloody Primarch or knocked him down previously are just minor things which they throw out in just a page or two! You can't develop your stories naturally and fully in order for them to really pay off and feel logical.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
Acerbus and Vandred and Skraivok and Savasdus and Hekatos would disagree with you.
Ok, so five examples in an entire legion. Curze never embraced chaos, and the legion generally looks down on those that do as week. Vandred ultimately turned on his daemon.
It should also be pointed out that the Night Lords are the only legion that sometimes tells Abaddon to go feth off when he calls on them to join his Black Crusades. Notice the legion who's missing in the old Eye of Terror campaign book?
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.
Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.
Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.
Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.
Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.
Agreed. Whilst we're at it too, rid the world of the stupidity that is the "Alpha Legion are super secret good guys, honest guv!" that has been memed to death and needs to have died in a fire yesterday.
Whatever the AL were and whatever their intentions may have been they are no longer that. Yup, no Chaos worshippers to see here- these DPs, Daemon Engines and Possessed are all super secretly sneaky like, working for the Imperium.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.
Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.
Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.
No gods. No masters.
I just checked the codex and it agrees with you. Would be nice if we had a suplement and some specific units to differentiate them from other CSM .
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.
Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.
Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.
No gods. No masters.
They may not consciously worship Chaos, but they certainly do. To give another example, Fabius Bile is a staunch atheist and does not believe in the very existence of the Chaos gods (or rather, whatever the LATD refer to as "gods" are not that); however you can see the subtle influence of Slaanesh that inflicted the rest of his legion plagues him too. The pursuit of perfection and obsession. Bile denies the existence of Slaanesh but his relentless quest to create the perfect race of New Men is fuelled by Slaanesh and Slaanesh is fuelling him. Why does he need the constant need to tinker with their genetics? Why is he never satisfied with his greatest work? Because Chaos.
The gods can manipulate their mortal minions in ways they cannot comprehend.
The Night Lords never fell to chaos. That is an aspect of them I would like to see explored more.
I disagree, Night Lords were always Chaos. The only sense that they didn’t fall is in that they started at rock bottom.
Other legions execute atrocities, hunt the weak, amass wealth and generally cause terror on the instruction of warlords, gods or doctrine. Night Lords do it not to please anyone or anything else. They just do it because thats who they are to the core. Chaos.
Agree they do it because that's what they are at their core, but it's not for the chaos gods. They don't worship chaos. They do those things because that's who they are (and were created to be that by the Emperor). That's what makes them so terrifying and why they're my favorite legion. They serve no one.
No gods. No masters.
I just checked the codex and it agrees with you. Would be nice if we had a suplement and some specific units to differentiate them from other CSM .
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, so five examples in an entire legion. Curze never embraced chaos, and the legion generally looks down on those that do as week. Vandred ultimately turned on his daemon.
It should also be pointed out that the Night Lords are the only legion that sometimes tells Abaddon to go feth off when he calls on them to join his Black Crusades. Notice the legion who's missing in the old Eye of Terror campaign book?
They sure weren't missing in Fall of Cadia, or from this list: ttps://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade_Forces#Chaos_Forces or at Vigilus where they also fought alongside Abaddon. And these aren't "just" five examples. Each one of them led a warband, all but one of which they pushed entirely towards chaos and mutation, with one being the largest Night Lords warband in the galaxy.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, so five examples in an entire legion. Curze never embraced chaos, and the legion generally looks down on those that do as week. Vandred ultimately turned on his daemon.
It should also be pointed out that the Night Lords are the only legion that sometimes tells Abaddon to go feth off when he calls on them to join his Black Crusades. Notice the legion who's missing in the old Eye of Terror campaign book?
They sure weren't missing in Fall of Cadia, or from this list: ttps://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade_Forces#Chaos_Forces or at Vigilus where they also fought alongside Abaddon. And these aren't "just" five examples. Each one of them led a warband, all but one of which they pushed entirely towards chaos and mutation, with one being the largest Night Lords warband in the galaxy.
If having a few war bands deviating from the norm counts against the entire legion, which has no centralized command structure linking war bands together, then some first founding chapters had better start getting real worried about what their successor chapters have been up to.
To continue on this theme, the idea that being bad means you are chaos needs to go.
There's skinning people for fun and there's doing it for chaos. They are distinct. The Nightlords are as connected to chaos as the blood angels are. Which is, in a metaphysical sense true of all existence.
Chaos is a background radiation to all existence no matter how virtuous. but falling to chaos is a far more deliberate thing
But then there are tons of guys from the other tractor legions who were never interested in chaos at all.
Bit of a topic switch here but related... I just finished buried dagger. What a great book.. Finally a primarch portrayed in a more realistic manner... I just wonder what they will write about in his primarch novel as this book covered his origin backstory fully.
Hellebore wrote: To continue on this theme, the idea that being bad means you are chaos needs to go.
There's skinning people for fun and there's doing it for chaos. They are distinct. The Nightlords are as connected to chaos as the blood angels are. Which is, in a metaphysical sense true of all existence.
Chaos is a background radiation to all existence no matter how virtuous. but falling to chaos is a far more deliberate thing
Yes! Falling to chaos means worshipping chaos not "doing bad things". If that's the only criteria then most factions in 40k have "fallen " to chaos.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I liked the konrad curze novel. I think it showed him in an interesting light.
Spoiler:
basically, his prison coffin that sangy threw into space is picked up by a salvage ship. he commandeers the ship to tsagualsa to reunite the night lords. told simultaneously with depictions of him talking to an effigy of the emperor that hes stitched together from corpses.
it was pretty good I thought.
not sure why that relates one way or another to immortal chars.
The Asuryani want to restore the Aeldari Empire. This makes no sense whatsoever. The Asuryani were the ones that abandoned the Empire - they were renegades and deserters. It is the Drukhari who are the descendants of the old Aeldari Empire. If the Aeldari Empire is restored, Commorragh would 100% be its capital.
This is part of the very old lore back in the days where the Eldar's (then Aeldar) lore wasn't very fleshed out yet and the Dark Eldar (then Druikhari) were still considered a minor race. The new lore confirms the Druikhari to be a major power with a population roughly the size of the Asuryani. So why aren't the Drukhari launching a crusade to reclaim the galaxy and enslave everyone?
It is bs to the extreme and used by utterly incompetent writers to justify Aeldari fighting the Imperium for territorial reasons rather than actual threats like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos or Necron.
Another thing I want off the lore is M'kar's encounter with Draigo and Memphisto. This really undermines the showdown between him and Calgar when you realize some other dudes had kicked his sorry ass before.
I think that Eldar are more of minor, major threat. They do not have strength to fight against Imperium at large, but they can dominate minor conflicts. Imagine real life Vietnam. USA is a lot bigger than you, but it has to send its troops across entire world to fight in unfavorable conditions. Eldars might be small, but they can focus everything they got into a war they are fighting and thus, they bring more stuff than Imperium can as it is too spread out.
As for Chaos question. A lot of legions and people do not worship Chaos. Did you ever heard of Furies? Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.
The thing is, most people understand Chaos as "I'm spikey and evil now" instead of treating Chaos for what it really is. A pure expression of humanity. Seeking perfection is not a Chaotic trait. Every human had sought and wants perfection. Did you saw those "oddly satisfying" videos on facebook or youtube where machine does something perfectly? Did you ever felt compulsion to have your room perfectly clean? To make perfect present, cook perfect meal for yourself? THAT is Chaos. To deny Chaos is to deny reality and yourself.
BrianDavion wrote: Utterly conquered is a bit of an exaggeration. the new SOB novel details it a bit
I've not seen the new book. Are they rolling back on the "...entire population of Ophelia was freed from the enslavement of the Tyrant of Blueflame..." line from the Marine codex?
bibotot wrote: The Asuryani want to restore the Aeldari Empire. This makes no sense whatsoever. The Asuryani were the ones that abandoned the Empire - they were renegades and deserters. It is the Drukhari who are the descendants of the old Aeldari Empire. If the Aeldari Empire is restored, Commorragh would 100% be its capital.
This is part of the very old lore back in the days where the Eldar's (then Aeldar) lore wasn't very fleshed out yet and the Dark Eldar (then Druikhari) were still considered a minor race. The new lore confirms the Druikhari to be a major power with a population roughly the size of the Asuryani. So why aren't the Drukhari launching a crusade to reclaim the galaxy and enslave everyone?
It is bs to the extreme and used by utterly incompetent writers to justify Aeldari fighting the Imperium for territorial reasons rather than actual threats like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos or Necron.
Another thing I want off the lore is M'kar's encounter with Draigo and Memphisto. This really undermines the showdown between him and Calgar when you realize some other dudes had kicked his sorry ass before.
DE are what the Aeldari empire was at its worse during the decline (and the fall) and not what it was during its peak . They were not savagely murder humping eachother to death from day one lol.. They were too busy helping in the fight aginst the necrons/ctan and meant they had to constantly strive also culling orcs and saving the gaalxy in the name of the old ones was the objective... The drive was to have mastery over matter and reach "enlightement". They did... It was only once they acievd mastery, and then there was nothing to oppose them that they fell into decay and depravity and murder humping themselves to detah... Tehy didnt achieve the empire through that but rather lost the empire due to that. And it was a gradual process over millions of years.
The CWE in the current time line have somehow re-gressed into levels of power far below their peak. For reasons.. Apparently they all forgot how to build this super awesome tech that can snuff out stars at the click of a finger..
BrianDavion wrote: Utterly conquered is a bit of an exaggeration. the new SOB novel details it a bit
I've not seen the new book. Are they rolling back on the "...entire population of Ophelia was freed from the enslavement of the Tyrant of Blueflame..." line from the Marine codex?
well for one thing it wasn't just the space Marines, it was the indomatus crusade, including pretty much every sister of battle that could be spared.
seriously, people need to stop reading "indomatus crusade" as "Gulliman and a handful of blue primaris marines"
for another thing, the sisters of battle on the planet where fighting the deamons during the entire time. It's just was was a losing battle because there where so many deamons.
bibotot wrote: The Asuryani want to restore the Aeldari Empire. This makes no sense whatsoever. The Asuryani were the ones that abandoned the Empire - they were renegades and deserters. It is the Drukhari who are the descendants of the old Aeldari Empire. If the Aeldari Empire is restored, Commorragh would 100% be its capital.
This is part of the very old lore back in the days where the Eldar's (then Aeldar) lore wasn't very fleshed out yet and the Dark Eldar (then Druikhari) were still considered a minor race. The new lore confirms the Druikhari to be a major power with a population roughly the size of the Asuryani. So why aren't the Drukhari launching a crusade to reclaim the galaxy and enslave everyone?
It is bs to the extreme and used by utterly incompetent writers to justify Aeldari fighting the Imperium for territorial reasons rather than actual threats like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos or Necron.
Another thing I want off the lore is M'kar's encounter with Draigo and Memphisto. This really undermines the showdown between him and Calgar when you realize some other dudes had kicked his sorry ass before.
DE are what the Aeldari empire was at its worse during the decline (and the fall) and not what it was during its peak . They were not savagely murder humping eachother to death from day one lol.. They were too busy helping in the fight aginst the necrons/ctan and meant they had to constantly strive also culling orcs and saving the gaalxy in the name of the old ones was the objective... The drive was to have mastery over matter and reach "enlightement". They did... It was only once they acievd mastery, and then there was nothing to oppose them that they fell into decay and depravity and murder humping themselves to detah... Tehy didnt achieve the empire through that but rather lost the empire due to that. And it was a gradual process over millions of years.
The CWE in the current time line have somehow re-gressed into levels of power far below their peak. For reasons.. Apparently they all forgot how to build this super awesome tech that can snuff out stars at the click of a finger..
The Craftworld Eldar are the post-apocalyptic descendants of those uncorrupted Eldar that fled the empire like Numenoreans fleeing Numenor or Atlanteans fleeing Atlantis. They did not necessarily have the best and brightest of society with them. The superweapons could have required esoteric knowledge from a range of specialist fields, rendering them impossible to replicate.
Think of it this way: If society collapsed and you managed to flee on board a ship with a band of other survivors, why can't you build a nuclear missile? Same reason. The band of survivors is not likely to contain all the necessary knowledge let alone have the tools or infrastructure to build it.
Even if by some chance there was a nuclear weapons physicist in the band of survivors, chances are their time would be spent just trying to meet basic needs rather than passing on their nuclear physics knowledge, which would have no use in the practical day to day struggle for survival. Within a generation that theoretical physics knowledge would be lost.
They were colonial world ships.. you mean to tell me if we built a country sized supervessel to escape into the ocean as we saw society moving towards a mad max nobody would bring a computer hard drive with all of the knowledge on how to build electric nuclear power plants and know how on how to start over. Then you scale it up and apparently all of this knowledge was not recorded, qnd the people who lived at the time if the fall and now are part of the infiinity circuit just forgot how things work?
BrianDavion wrote: seriously, people need to stop reading "indomatus crusade" as "Gulliman and a handful of blue primaris marines"
It's no use, people see anything that could relate to Guilliman and the Primaris Marines and ignore all the actual lore in favour of often outdated or just simply incorrect points instead.
Notable ones include:
The Imperium would never work with xenos, that's heresy! (except for when we see examples of it happening before, like Kantor, or Calgar, or Dante, or the Grey Knights)
Cawl has no right to be as smart as he is! (except that he was one of the original scientists working on the SM project)
There's no way the Dark Angels would ever accept Primaris! (but they're happy to accept new recruits who they can indoctrinate themselves - who could undergo the Rubicon)
Guilliman had no authority to reclaim his position! (except he was vouched for by a senior Inquisitor, high ranking figure in the AdMech, a Living Saint, the Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, several high ranking Space Marine leaders in similarly famous Chapters, and the Custodian Guard)
All Primaris Marines are just "red Ultramarines", as Gabriel Seth puts it! (except that only partially applies to the Indomitus Crusade Primaris - the other two generations of Primaris are, for all intents and purposes, identical in ideology to the rest of their Chapter).
Argive wrote: They were colonial world ships.. you mean to tell me if we built a country sized supervessel to escape into the ocean as we saw society moving towards a mad max nobody would bring a computer hard drive with all of the knowledge on how to build electric nuclear power plants and know how on how to start over. Then you scale it up and apparently all of this knowledge was not recorded, qnd the people who lived at the time if the fall and now are part of the infiinity circuit just forgot how things work?
The Craftworlds were a mix of transport ships that then grew through accretion over time, and purpose built arks (like Mymeara). However, the final escape was still chaotic and not all of their civilization could be preserved. For example, Mymeara only escaped with a fraction of its world's population. The exodus of the craftworlds was not an organized evacuation as the empire as a whole had collapsed into rampant anarchy. We also don't know to what degree superweapon information was classified and monopolized. If society were collapsing and everyone was scrambling for the boats, there is no guarantee someone with access to the latest top secret military weaponry is going to be able to make it, let alone make it on board with the detailed knowledge and blueprints to make the weapon (and any prerequisite parts/technology). Knowledge like that is probably not even centralized in one space. There isn't one hard drive sitting somewhere in the Pentagon with a step by step guide to building the latest weapon system from scratch. The information would be in the hands of the various manufacturers and contractors. The more complicated the weapon system, the greater and more complicated the supply chain.
What we see as Craftworld Eldar technology seems to be the more easily reconstructed or established technology, rather than necessarily the latest cutting edge of the Eldar Empire's technology.
Spirits in the infinity circuit don't seem to stay lucid forever. The Eldar novels give a portrayal of the spirits in the infinity circuit afterlife getting more and more remote and disconnected from the real world, and harder to rouse, the further back in time they go.
BrianDavion wrote: seriously, people need to stop reading "indomatus crusade" as "Gulliman and a handful of blue primaris marines"
It's no use, people see anything that could relate to Guilliman and the Primaris Marines and ignore all the actual lore in favour of often outdated or just simply incorrect points instead.
Notable ones include:
The Imperium would never work with xenos, that's heresy! (except for when we see examples of it happening before, like Kantor, or Calgar, or Dante, or the Grey Knights)
Cawl has no right to be as smart as he is! (except that he was one of the original scientists working on the SM project)
There's no way the Dark Angels would ever accept Primaris! (but they're happy to accept new recruits who they can indoctrinate themselves - who could undergo the Rubicon)
Guilliman had no authority to reclaim his position! (except he was vouched for by a senior Inquisitor, high ranking figure in the AdMech, a Living Saint, the Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, several high ranking Space Marine leaders in similarly famous Chapters, and the Custodian Guard)
All Primaris Marines are just "red Ultramarines", as Gabriel Seth puts it! (except that only partially applies to the Indomitus Crusade Primaris - the other two generations of Primaris are, for all intents and purposes, identical in ideology to the rest of their Chapter).
The issue here is that you can't throw setting out of a window just because you decided to pathetically try to get some Asian market bucks or to push new line of models. There are inner rules in Warhammer universe. Like you could not create Tau race who are just happy dudes helping each other and making W40k brighter for everyone, you in a same way cannot have some marry sue committing tech heresies left and right, making mockery of Emperor's hundred of years worth work, you can't just have some eldar dudes invade inner sanctum of holy throne. You can't commit unholy xenos warp sorceries on your primarch in a middle of your cathedral and then pretend that nobody minds that. I wish Crawl being declared publicly as heretek, hunted down and put into endless torture. As for Guiliman. I want this heretic to be resisted as he should be resisted. Nobody breaks so many sacred rules in the Imperium and gets away with it. Well, unless they are ultrasmurfs, they have enough plot armor to do whatever.
One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.
Overall, I would like to roll back on the certainty, to probably late 3e levels. Undo the Horus Heresy novels, undo the modern background which is written by fanboys who took everything too literally, and put some space and mystery back into the setting.
40K is becoming like Forgotten Realms, a small place governed by a small cast of super heroic or super villainous characters rather than a setting to play games and tell stories in.
Ernestas wrote: Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.
The Iron Warriors most certainly do not despise Chaos. They use sorcerers, many of their number are berzerkers who are quite willing to throw away their military logic for engaging in Khornate bloodletting, they specialize in creating newer and more effective daemon engines, and several of their warsmiths have sought and acquired daemonhood. They may not approach Chaos in the reverential fashion that the Word Bearers do, but it is a major part of who they are.
There definitely needs to be more clarifications with how various Space Marine Chapters and Chaos Marine Legions diverge from their stereotypes.
Painting a entire Chapter or Legion as 1000-100,000 copies of the Poster Boy for their faction is a disservice to how flexible 40k lore actually is.
Ultramarines while followers of the Codex Astartes have people within their ranks that understand it's more guidelines than strict law. As well as people who think its strict law.
Similarly for Chaos; maybe these Warbands of Night Lords don't follow Chaos, but maybe this one Night Lords Sorcerer's warband does.
A lot of 1d4chan followers seem to only understand Black and White, with no room for grey.
BrianDavion wrote: for another thing, the sisters of battle on the planet where fighting the deamons during the entire time. It's just was was a losing battle because there where so many deamons.
The book expands quite significantly on the codex lore (quoted) then.
Ernestas wrote: Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.
The Iron Warriors most certainly do not despise Chaos. They use sorcerers, many of their number are berzerkers who are quite willing to throw away their military logic for engaging in Khornate bloodletting, they specialize in creating newer and more effective daemon engines, and several of their warsmiths have sought and acquired daemonhood. They may not approach Chaos in the reverential fashion that the Word Bearers do, but it is a major part of who they are.
By that logic space marines follow Chaos, because they have librarians. Though, what I had meant was an image of half mad, mutation afflicted warrior which usually is definition of Chaos. Iron Warriors on the other hand are organized no worse or even better at some level than loyalist chapters.
DE are what the Aeldari empire was at its worse during the decline (and the fall) and not what it was during its peak . They were not savagely murder humping eachother to death from day one lol.. They were too busy helping in the fight aginst the necrons/ctan and meant they had to constantly strive also culling orcs and saving the gaalxy in the name of the old ones was the objective... The drive was to have mastery over matter and reach "enlightement". They did... It was only once they acievd mastery, and then there was nothing to oppose them that they fell into decay and depravity and murder humping themselves to detah... Tehy didnt achieve the empire through that but rather lost the empire due to that. And it was a gradual process over millions of years.
The Aeldari empire collapsed/fell when it was at its peak, there was no "decline and fall" - they effectively ruled the galaxy and turned to hedonism, decadence, and excess because of their wealth and power, resulting in the birth of Slaanesh which destroyed the core of the Empire instantaneously. When the Aeldari were fighting against the Necrons they were little more than servants to the Old Ones, it wasn't until LONG afterwards that the Aeldari became independent and were the dominant political body in the galaxy.
So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.
They were colonial world ships..
They were actually merchant vessels, not colony ships. They survived because they were far from the core of the Aeldari empire when the birth of Slaanesh occurred or because they were transporting those from the Aeldari core who had become disgusted by what Aeldari culture had become, not necessarily because they had an advanced warning of what was going on. They weren't as hedonistic because they were already culturally distinct from the Aeldari core as a result of being away from Aeldari space on their trading missions for hundreds (if not thousands) of years at a time.
Ernestas wrote:The issue here is that you can't throw setting out of a window just because you decided to pathetically try to get some Asian market bucks or to push new line of models.
It's a good thing that they've not thrown the setting out of the window then, isn't it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they've "ruined the setting".
There are inner rules in Warhammer universe.
And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?
Like you could not create Tau race who are just happy dudes helping each other and making W40k brighter for everyone
Yes, you can. It's what you do with a race that is happy and peaceful that the point lies. Look at the Interex in 30k. They're pretty chill guys, and seem to genuinely want to help humanity. They get slaughtered. The Taus being nice works, because you then see how their worldview breaks down in the wider galaxy.
you in a same way cannot have some marry sue committing tech heresies left and right, making mockery of Emperor's hundred of years worth work,
The work that Cawl did himself, you mean? After all, he is essentially the creator of the Black Carapace. Ooh, and that's without mentioning that the Emperor never actually made the Adeptus Astartes - that was led by a scientist called Amar Astarte!
This is my point about making complaints without even reading the lore - you've decided that Cawl HAS to be a mary sue, without looking at the evidence
Read The Great Work. It's got far more in there about Cawl than any other work, and dismantles practically every complaint about him.
you can't just have some eldar dudes invade inner sanctum of holy throne.
Strange, I seem to remember there being Dark Eldar invited into the throne room by the Mechanicus back in I think 7th edition to help repair the failing Golden Throne? Where were all the complaints then?
You can't commit unholy xenos warp sorceries on your primarch in a middle of your cathedral and then pretend that nobody minds that.
You can when a Living Saint, the Chief Librarian and Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights support it.
I wish Crawl being declared publicly as heretek, hunted down and put into endless torture.
...you do realise it's fiction, right?
As for Guiliman. I want this heretic to be resisted as he should be resisted. Nobody breaks so many sacred rules in the Imperium and gets away with it.
Yes - sacred. And who are the people considered to be sacred and holy and blessed by the Emperor - the Primarchs, Living Saints, and the Custodes? Oh, wait, those are all the people who support Guilliman's stewardship.
Guilliman's a Primarch. It's well recorded that, even IF Guilliman had no legal authority (which he does, granted by the Custodes), people would still adore him because of his transhuman aura.
Well, unless they are ultrasmurfs, they have enough plot armor to do whatever.
Ironic, considering the Space Wolves hold that title.
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Ernestas wrote: Here is another legion who despises Chaos, Iron Warriors. They fight as extreme professionals. Never throwing their lives away for nothing. They possess extreme combat discipline rivaling and surpassing some Space Marine chapters. They specialize in logistics, organization and supply in order to wage siege warfare or to construct massive fortresses.
The Iron Warriors most certainly do not despise Chaos. They use sorcerers, many of their number are berzerkers who are quite willing to throw away their military logic for engaging in Khornate bloodletting, they specialize in creating newer and more effective daemon engines, and several of their warsmiths have sought and acquired daemonhood. They may not approach Chaos in the reverential fashion that the Word Bearers do, but it is a major part of who they are.
Agreed. For decentralised Legions, there's more than enough room for members to be devoted to Chaos, devoted to singular Gods, or hate everything to do with Chaos. There's plenty of room for Night Lords to worship a certain god. There's plenty of room for a Death Guard legionary to hate Chaos. The idea that "this Legion hates Chaos" as if the Legion was even properly unified just isn't what we're shown.
As said above - the "extreme professional" Iron Warriors have Berzerkers in their ranks. They use Daemon Engines. They've even been content to summon Daemonic armies and plagues to further their goals.
Da Boss wrote: One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.
Overall, I would like to roll back on the certainty, to probably late 3e levels. Undo the Horus Heresy novels, undo the modern background which is written by fanboys who took everything too literally, and put some space and mystery back into the setting.
40K is becoming like Forgotten Realms, a small place governed by a small cast of super heroic or super villainous characters rather than a setting to play games and tell stories in.
Yes this! I dislike that they expanded so much on HH, and became more serious.
Most/all special characters - and their ability to never, ever die.
It's great to have stories of heroic individuals, but when the whole universe appears to revolve around them, it gets a bit too narrow, in my opinion. My dudes don't feel like they matter, because their dudes are always saving the day.
Ernestas wrote: By that logic space marines follow Chaos, because they have librarians.
Having Librarians has never meant attachment to the Chaos Gods, unless you're implying that the Grey Knights are Chaos worshippers.
Librarians draw power from the Warp. Sorcerors often draw power from the Chaos Gods themselves (of course, there's Sorcerors who have natural psychic power, like Librarians).
Ernestas wrote: By that logic space marines follow Chaos, because they have librarians.
Having Librarians has never meant attachment to the Chaos Gods, unless you're implying that the Grey Knights are Chaos worshippers.
Librarians draw power from the Warp. Sorcerors often draw power from the Chaos Gods themselves (of course, there's Sorcerors who have natural psychic power, like Librarians).
But then again, the Chaos Gods are the Warp- they’re just very powerful Warp Storms, as I’ve always understood it.
So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.
It's not that straightforward, though. First, Aeldari society used to have a kind of caste hierarchy with aristocratic noble houses at the top and slaves at the bottom. When Vect took over, he replaced that with the current system of cabals and "promotion by assassination." Second, the Drukhari never ever use psychic powers, to the point that their psychic potential has basically atrophied away. The old empire used and abused their psychic skills for pretty much everything. Finally, a good part of their depravity is now a matter of survival and they know as well as any eldar what happens when you take your pleasure cults too far.
So out of all the eldar factions, the drukhari are certainly the closest to what the old eldar empire was, but they've had to adapt too. You could argue that pre-fall eldar may have been even more sick and twisted, since they didn't have to worry about things like Slaanesh, rivals out for blood or attacks from the "inferior" races.
So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.
It's not that straightforward, though. First, Aeldari society used to have a kind of caste hierarchy with aristocratic noble houses at the top and slaves at the bottom. When Vect took over, he replaced that with the current system of cabals and "promotion by assassination." Second, the Drukhari never ever use psychic powers, to the point that their psychic potential has basically atrophied away. The old empire used and abused their psychic skills for pretty much everything. Finally, a good part of their depravity is now a matter of survival and they know as well as any eldar what happens when you take your pleasure cults too far.
So out of all the eldar factions, the drukhari are certainly the closest to what the old eldar empire was, but they've had to adapt too. You could argue that pre-fall eldar may have been even more sick and twisted, since they didn't have to worry about things like Slaanesh, rivals out for blood or attacks from the "inferior" races.
At the height of their empire wasn't really their peak. The Dark Eldar-like hedonism was a decline. Their peak was before they declined due to lacking any sort of challenge.
Dark Eldar not using their Psychic powers causes another huge change for them: they had to reinvent their material sciences. Pre-fall, they used mostly materials that were constructed from the Warp (Wraithbone/steel/etc). Further, many of their UIs were psychic in nature. They can't do that anymore (as it risks the attention of Slanesh). The only Psykers tolerated in the Dark City are supposedly the Harlequin psykers (only because bad things happened to those who messed with them - not even Vect takes Cegorath lightly). So after the fall, they had to reinvent their crafting/tech/economy.
Another difference is that they are not top dog. Before the Fall, the Eldar were unchallenged. They could do whatever they wanted (although the details are debated). Dark City Eldar cannot. They are very limited, and know it. They can look outward for challenges. That is a huge change.
Yet another difference is a large number of Dark Eldar are vatborn. In conjunction with Vect's overthrow of the hierarchical feudal society, the notions of lineage, status, and the value of the average Eldar life has changed (although how and to what degree I couldn't tell you).
I'd argue the closest to Eldar at their peak would actually be Corsairs. They generally follow their royalty. They are adventurists looking for excitement and challenge. To a degree, they are free to do what they want. They use the same technology and materials (as do Craftworlders). They do not spend their lives fending off Slanesh (although that risks catching up with them, which is really bad news).
Ernestas wrote: By that logic space marines follow Chaos, because they have librarians.
Having Librarians has never meant attachment to the Chaos Gods, unless you're implying that the Grey Knights are Chaos worshippers.
Librarians draw power from the Warp. Sorcerors often draw power from the Chaos Gods themselves (of course, there's Sorcerors who have natural psychic power, like Librarians).
But then again, the Chaos Gods are the Warp- they’re just very powerful Warp Storms, as I’ve always understood it.
That's not how I've seen it - I've seen it vaguely as in the Warp is the ocean, and the Chaos Gods large monsters in the ocean, capable of turning currents and tides in it, but still separate entities in it.
But, if that's how you view things, more power to you, the Warp's one of those things which it's not really sure how it works, and that's a good thing!
Side note related to the Guilliman thing: literally no one is gonna denounce Guilliman for "heresy". Even if the High Lords hated the guy, any action they'd try to take against him would split the Imperium in two, cause a civil war, and basically doom the human race. So they might grumble and plot behind his back, but they ain't gonna do nothing openly to oppose the guy.
flandarz wrote: Side note related to the Guilliman thing: literally no one is gonna denounce Guilliman for "heresy". Even if the High Lords hated the guy, any action they'd try to take against him would split the Imperium in two, cause a civil war, and basically doom the human race. So they might grumble and plot behind his back, but they ain't gonna do nothing openly to oppose the guy.
Exactly - the Imperium might be stupid, but the HLOT aren't. If they actually had a problem with Guilliman (and that's an if), they wouldn't just declare heresy. Their tactic would be essentially claiming victories as their own, using their own influence to hinder Guilliman's progress, and essentially buttering Guilliman up while they consolidate personal power and influence.
For OP: Tau suits bigger than a Riptide. Riptides were supposed to be titan hunters. The Stormsurge and the Supremacy Suit are counter to the original aesthetic of the Tau, where if they faced overwhelming odds, they would either cede the ground to retake it later or would use their larger aircraft to pound their opponents into rubble.
carldooley wrote: For OP: Tau suits bigger than a Riptide. Riptides were supposed to be titan hunters. The Stormsurge and the Supremacy Suit are counter to the original aesthetic of the Tau, where if they faced overwhelming odds, they would either cede the ground to retake it later or would use their larger aircraft to pound their opponents into rubble.
I thought Riptides were just a bigger suit rather than a dedicated Titan hunter which they seem bad at. Manta and other aircraft were Titan killers and Riptides were just the first step on the path to the moar mech plan.
carldooley wrote: For OP: Tau suits bigger than a Riptide. Riptides were supposed to be titan hunters. The Stormsurge and the Supremacy Suit are counter to the original aesthetic of the Tau, where if they faced overwhelming odds, they would either cede the ground to retake it later or would use their larger aircraft to pound their opponents into rubble.
As in so many cases that fluff existed precisely because they didn't have models to fill those roles. Also, sometimes you can't just peace-out, as there's still civilians and stuff to be loaded. Furthermore, it's traditional for large galactic powers to field giant robots in case one of their competitors has giant robots of their own; they must not allow a giant robot gap!
Nurglitch wrote: Furthermore, it's traditional for large galactic powers to field giant robots in case one of their competitors has giant robots of their own; they must not allow a giant robot gap!
Huh. I think you just summed up the plot behind every Gundam show!
Nurglitch wrote: Furthermore, it's traditional for large galactic powers to field giant robots in case one of their competitors has giant robots of their own; they must not allow a giant robot gap!
Huh. I think you just summed up the plot behind every Gundam show!
wait...you mean all this time I thought they were completely independent and shared no similarities...damnit
In the year 42,000, only one setting is Grimdark enuff to give you what you need...
carldooley wrote: For OP: Tau suits bigger than a Riptide. Riptides were supposed to be titan hunters. The Stormsurge and the Supremacy Suit are counter to the original aesthetic of the Tau, where if they faced overwhelming odds, they would either cede the ground to retake it later or would use their larger aircraft to pound their opponents into rubble.
Stormsurge and Supremacy Suits are both classed as "Ballistic Suits", with the fluff painting them more as artillery than anything else.
So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.
It's not that straightforward, though. First, Aeldari society used to have a kind of caste hierarchy with aristocratic noble houses at the top and slaves at the bottom. When Vect took over, he replaced that with the current system of cabals and "promotion by assassination." Second, the Drukhari never ever use psychic powers, to the point that their psychic potential has basically atrophied away. The old empire used and abused their psychic skills for pretty much everything. Finally, a good part of their depravity is now a matter of survival and they know as well as any eldar what happens when you take your pleasure cults too far.
So out of all the eldar factions, the drukhari are certainly the closest to what the old eldar empire was, but they've had to adapt too. You could argue that pre-fall eldar may have been even more sick and twisted, since they didn't have to worry about things like Slaanesh, rivals out for blood or attacks from the "inferior" races.
At the height of their empire wasn't really their peak. The Dark Eldar-like hedonism was a decline. Their peak was before they declined due to lacking any sort of challenge.
Dark Eldar not using their Psychic powers causes another huge change for them: they had to reinvent their material sciences. Pre-fall, they used mostly materials that were constructed from the Warp (Wraithbone/steel/etc). Further, many of their UIs were psychic in nature. They can't do that anymore (as it risks the attention of Slanesh). The only Psykers tolerated in the Dark City are supposedly the Harlequin psykers (only because bad things happened to those who messed with them - not even Vect takes Cegorath lightly). So after the fall, they had to reinvent their crafting/tech/economy.
Another difference is that they are not top dog. Before the Fall, the Eldar were unchallenged. They could do whatever they wanted (although the details are debated). Dark City Eldar cannot. They are very limited, and know it. They can look outward for challenges. That is a huge change.
Yet another difference is a large number of Dark Eldar are vatborn. In conjunction with Vect's overthrow of the hierarchical feudal society, the notions of lineage, status, and the value of the average Eldar life has changed (although how and to what degree I couldn't tell you).
I'd argue the closest to Eldar at their peak would actually be Corsairs. They generally follow their royalty. They are adventurists looking for excitement and challenge. To a degree, they are free to do what they want. They use the same technology and materials (as do Craftworlders). They do not spend their lives fending off Slanesh (although that risks catching up with them, which is really bad news).
The aesthetics of the old pre-Fall pre-decadent Eldar Empire is closer to that of the Craftworlds. Evidence for this is in how the large Webway gates (all pre-Fall) feature gate structures that more closely match the aesthetics of the Craftworld Eldar. The Eldar empire used psychic technology, and this is evidenced by how the Dark Eldar have old superweapons that they cannot activate because their psychic abilities have atrophied. So in the case of the planet Duriel (aka Valedor), the Dark Eldar have to get the Craftworld Eldar to activate the weapon.
The Eldar Empire went through phases. First there was the mythical time before the empire, a time when the Eldar still had to struggle. The Exodites look back to this era. Then the empire at its height of power before it started becoming decadent. That is the era the Craftworld Eldar are yearning for again, so their aesthetics can be viewed almost as Neo-Classical. Then the Eldar Empire started becoming decadent and taking on the aesthetics closer to the modern Dark Eldar. The Eldar (Craftworlders and Exodites) that left the Empire deliberately tried to re-create idealized versions of the past, before things became decadent. The Dark Eldar (pre-Vect Kabal reforms) are a snapshot of the empire at its worst, in the final moments right before the birth of Slaanesh. Vect swept away the last vestiges of nobility for a ruthless meritocracy. Vestiges of the nobility (or the idea of a nobility) still persist among the Craftworlds in the form of Titan Clans, the clans of Saim-hann, and the houses of Iyanden.
So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.
It's not that straightforward, though. First, Aeldari society used to have a kind of caste hierarchy with aristocratic noble houses at the top and slaves at the bottom. When Vect took over, he replaced that with the current system of cabals and "promotion by assassination." Second, the Drukhari never ever use psychic powers, to the point that their psychic potential has basically atrophied away. The old empire used and abused their psychic skills for pretty much everything. Finally, a good part of their depravity is now a matter of survival and they know as well as any eldar what happens when you take your pleasure cults too far.
So out of all the eldar factions, the drukhari are certainly the closest to what the old eldar empire was, but they've had to adapt too. You could argue that pre-fall eldar may have been even more sick and twisted, since they didn't have to worry about things like Slaanesh, rivals out for blood or attacks from the "inferior" races.
At the height of their empire wasn't really their peak. The Dark Eldar-like hedonism was a decline. Their peak was before they declined due to lacking any sort of challenge.
Dark Eldar not using their Psychic powers causes another huge change for them: they had to reinvent their material sciences. Pre-fall, they used mostly materials that were constructed from the Warp (Wraithbone/steel/etc). Further, many of their UIs were psychic in nature. They can't do that anymore (as it risks the attention of Slanesh). The only Psykers tolerated in the Dark City are supposedly the Harlequin psykers (only because bad things happened to those who messed with them - not even Vect takes Cegorath lightly). So after the fall, they had to reinvent their crafting/tech/economy.
Another difference is that they are not top dog. Before the Fall, the Eldar were unchallenged. They could do whatever they wanted (although the details are debated). Dark City Eldar cannot. They are very limited, and know it. They can look outward for challenges. That is a huge change.
Yet another difference is a large number of Dark Eldar are vatborn. In conjunction with Vect's overthrow of the hierarchical feudal society, the notions of lineage, status, and the value of the average Eldar life has changed (although how and to what degree I couldn't tell you).
I'd argue the closest to Eldar at their peak would actually be Corsairs. They generally follow their royalty. They are adventurists looking for excitement and challenge. To a degree, they are free to do what they want. They use the same technology and materials (as do Craftworlders). They do not spend their lives fending off Slanesh (although that risks catching up with them, which is really bad news).
The aesthetics of the old pre-Fall pre-decadent Eldar Empire is closer to that of the Craftworlds. Evidence for this is in how the large Webway gates (all pre-Fall) feature gate structures that more closely match the aesthetics of the Craftworld Eldar. The Eldar empire used psychic technology, and this is evidenced by how the Dark Eldar have old superweapons that they cannot activate because their psychic abilities have atrophied. So in the case of the planet Duriel (aka Valedor), the Dark Eldar have to get the Craftworld Eldar to activate the weapon.
The Eldar Empire went through phases. First there was the mythical time before the empire, a time when the Eldar still had to struggle. The Exodites look back to this era. Then the empire at its height of power before it started becoming decadent. That is the era the Craftworld Eldar are yearning for again, so their aesthetics can be viewed almost as Neo-Classical. Then the Eldar Empire started becoming decadent and taking on the aesthetics closer to the modern Dark Eldar. The Eldar (Craftworlders and Exodites) that left the Empire deliberately tried to re-create idealized versions of the past, before things became decadent. The Dark Eldar (pre-Vect Kabal reforms) are a snapshot of the empire at its worst, in the final moments right before the birth of Slaanesh. Vect swept away the last vestiges of nobility for a ruthless meritocracy. Vestiges of the nobility (or the idea of a nobility) still persist among the Craftworlds in the form of Titan Clans, the clans of Saim-hann, and the houses of Iyanden.
So yes, the Drukhari are what the Aeldari were at their peak.
It's not that straightforward, though. First, Aeldari society used to have a kind of caste hierarchy with aristocratic noble houses at the top and slaves at the bottom. When Vect took over, he replaced that with the current system of cabals and "promotion by assassination." Second, the Drukhari never ever use psychic powers, to the point that their psychic potential has basically atrophied away. The old empire used and abused their psychic skills for pretty much everything. Finally, a good part of their depravity is now a matter of survival and they know as well as any eldar what happens when you take your pleasure cults too far.
So out of all the eldar factions, the drukhari are certainly the closest to what the old eldar empire was, but they've had to adapt too. You could argue that pre-fall eldar may have been even more sick and twisted, since they didn't have to worry about things like Slaanesh, rivals out for blood or attacks from the "inferior" races.
At the height of their empire wasn't really their peak. The Dark Eldar-like hedonism was a decline. Their peak was before they declined due to lacking any sort of challenge.
Dark Eldar not using their Psychic powers causes another huge change for them: they had to reinvent their material sciences. Pre-fall, they used mostly materials that were constructed from the Warp (Wraithbone/steel/etc). Further, many of their UIs were psychic in nature. They can't do that anymore (as it risks the attention of Slanesh). The only Psykers tolerated in the Dark City are supposedly the Harlequin psykers (only because bad things happened to those who messed with them - not even Vect takes Cegorath lightly). So after the fall, they had to reinvent their crafting/tech/economy.
Another difference is that they are not top dog. Before the Fall, the Eldar were unchallenged. They could do whatever they wanted (although the details are debated). Dark City Eldar cannot. They are very limited, and know it. They can look outward for challenges. That is a huge change.
Yet another difference is a large number of Dark Eldar are vatborn. In conjunction with Vect's overthrow of the hierarchical feudal society, the notions of lineage, status, and the value of the average Eldar life has changed (although how and to what degree I couldn't tell you).
I'd argue the closest to Eldar at their peak would actually be Corsairs. They generally follow their royalty. They are adventurists looking for excitement and challenge. To a degree, they are free to do what they want. They use the same technology and materials (as do Craftworlders). They do not spend their lives fending off Slanesh (although that risks catching up with them, which is really bad news).
The aesthetics of the old pre-Fall pre-decadent Eldar Empire is closer to that of the Craftworlds. Evidence for this is in how the large Webway gates (all pre-Fall) feature gate structures that more closely match the aesthetics of the Craftworld Eldar. The Eldar empire used psychic technology, and this is evidenced by how the Dark Eldar have old superweapons that they cannot activate because their psychic abilities have atrophied. So in the case of the planet Duriel (aka Valedor), the Dark Eldar have to get the Craftworld Eldar to activate the weapon.
The Eldar Empire went through phases. First there was the mythical time before the empire, a time when the Eldar still had to struggle. The Exodites look back to this era. Then the empire at its height of power before it started becoming decadent. That is the era the Craftworld Eldar are yearning for again, so their aesthetics can be viewed almost as Neo-Classical. Then the Eldar Empire started becoming decadent and taking on the aesthetics closer to the modern Dark Eldar. The Eldar (Craftworlders and Exodites) that left the Empire deliberately tried to re-create idealized versions of the past, before things became decadent. The Dark Eldar (pre-Vect Kabal reforms) are a snapshot of the empire at its worst, in the final moments right before the birth of Slaanesh. Vect swept away the last vestiges of nobility for a ruthless meritocracy. Vestiges of the nobility (or the idea of a nobility) still persist among the Craftworlds in the form of Titan Clans, the clans of Saim-hann, and the houses of Iyanden.
I've never heard of Titan Clans. But I would add that Commoragh still has noble houses that survived the transition to kabals.
primaris-they break the lore. arch did a full video about how it just doesn't work. if GW had just said "these are the new minis and stats for the space marines reboot" it would have been fine.
Primaris, perpetuals, newcrons... kind of like Guilliman comming back. Prefarably no other loyal primarchs though. I’d also say that chaos=evil is a bad way to do thing. All deamons falling under the big 4 is absurd. Also I really dislike knights as a concept. Please explain to me why every space marine chapter doesn’t have like 20 knight suits available, or just stick a dreadnought sarcophagus in a knight.
My biggest issue is that 40k has felt smaller for every ed since... 4th maybe? More focused on specific heroes and not the incomprehensible mass of characters affected by what goes on. Actually on that note I dislike that characters don’t feel replaceable anymore. Death should have meaning in 40k. It seems to be way to easy to have super hero bullgak reasons for not dying in the perpetual war that is 40k.
Hint to GW: Not every race has to have a "personality" or personalities". Its still ok to have one or two with Cthulu like qualities i.e nids and OldCrons.
Hint to GW: Not every race has to have a "personality" or personalities". Its still ok to have one or two with Cthulu like qualities i.e nids and OldCrons.
The problem with Necrons having no personality was that they functionally became very similar to Tyranids The positive of the current crop of Necrons is that you can still have the old no-personality ones if you so want to, and call it a glitch in their programming - but having the option for a higher function is always welcome in my eyes.
Except necrons did have personality, it was just limited to the C'tan and lord variants.
You don't see the Norn Queens or Hive Tyrants going around, disguising themselves as governors and abducting tech priests for a nice chat.
Those who thought that necrons are metal nids really didn't understand them, read ALL of the lore (a lot of the good parts weren't in the codex, but in white dwarfs) or get the nuance.
I don't see why there could only be one "devourerer" like faction anyway. I mean, there is such a thing as predators competing for a food source. You wanted to know why the nids and necrons fought, even though nids can't eat necrons? Well, they are both after the same "prey".
I mean, you also apply the "functionally similar to other factions, so they have to be reworked / removed" argument to others :
Why should we have 10 different types of marines? They are all power armored super soldiers
Why should Dark Eldar exist? We already have hellraiser / edgelords in space in the form of chaos
Why should Ad mech exist? We already have a technologically advanced race with a T3 stat-line in the form of Tau, and the Imperial Guard already fulfills the niche of non-powered armored imperials etc
Why is it that Necrons aren't allowed to be similar to another faction and have to get their Egyptian theme flanderized (even though the old crons were about death and rebirth, NOT just Egypt. Egypt just happened to have a religion/culture built around those concepts. Necrons also took inspiration from the Aztecs and western horror / ghost stories), but other factions can get away with it?
DalekCheese wrote: But then again, the Chaos Gods are the Warp- they’re just very powerful Warp Storms, as I’ve always understood it.
The Warp existed before the Chaos Gods, actually. It was the "Immaterium", a representative of the thoughts and dreams of all sentient/sapient beings, particularly emotional ones. It only became corrupted in to "the Warp" during the War in Heaven between the Necrons/C'tan and the Old Ones/Krorks/Eldar.
The "Chaos Gods" are sentient representations of the mostly negative emotions of living beings in the war-filled hell-hole, and actively pursue making the galaxy worse for everyone else in order to garner more power and control over everything, seeking to bathe the entire "Materium" (aka, our objective reality) with the "Warp"/"Immaterium" (their subjective reality).
Hint to GW: Not every race has to have a "personality" or personalities". Its still ok to have one or two with Cthulu like qualities i.e nids and OldCrons.
The problem with Necrons having no personality was that they functionally became very similar to Tyranids The positive of the current crop of Necrons is that you can still have the old no-personality ones if you so want to, and call it a glitch in their programming - but having the option for a higher function is always welcome in my eyes.
But you can't because nothing changes the fact that near omnipotent ancient god beings are effectively Pokemon.
Nerak wrote: Primaris, perpetuals, newcrons... kind of like Guilliman comming back. Prefarably no other loyal primarchs though. I’d also say that chaos=evil is a bad way to do thing. All deamons falling under the big 4 is absurd. Also I really dislike knights as a concept. Please explain to me why every space marine chapter doesn’t have like 20 knight suits available, or just stick a dreadnought sarcophagus in a knight.
My biggest issue is that 40k has felt smaller for every ed since... 4th maybe? More focused on specific heroes and not the incomprehensible mass of characters affected by what goes on. Actually on that note I dislike that characters don’t feel replaceable anymore. Death should have meaning in 40k. It seems to be way to easy to have super hero bullgak reasons for not dying in the perpetual war that is 40k.
I remember back in 5th that every DIY chapter/successor had their own equivalent of a master of the ravenwing or a telion etc... so that you could still play what you liked because those types of leaders existed throughout imperial forces.
Hint to GW: Not every race has to have a "personality" or personalities". Its still ok to have one or two with Cthulu like qualities i.e nids and OldCrons.
The problem with Necrons having no personality was that they functionally became very similar to Tyranids The positive of the current crop of Necrons is that you can still have the old no-personality ones if you so want to, and call it a glitch in their programming - but having the option for a higher function is always welcome in my eyes.
The equating of Necrons to Tyranids is most bizarre, as they are vastly different in major ways. There are plenty of other factions that share more similarities to one another.
Nids: / Crons:
Purely biological. / Almost purely technological
Vast Warp presence. / No Warp presence
Slow interstellar travel. / Fastest interstellar travel
Non humanoid. / Humanoid
Galactic newcomer. / Oldest playable faction
No gods. / Actual realspace gods
Nid Endgame: Eradication of all other species.
Cron endgame: Seal off the warp, subjugate all other species (with some internal players looking to eradicate them)
It's like Nids = Crons is only about them both representing a galactic level existential threat. And the "solution" to that was to instead make Crons more like every other faction.
Yeah, the only thing that's really similar between them is that they are "hive minds".
Because as we all know, there can only be ever one hive mind in existence, and they can't be competing systems that have their own ways of doing things.
Basically everything that came after 4th / 5th has to go. Most of the Tau fluff could remain, but I wish they would win by themselves once, and stop getting deus ex machina all the time.
While the models and the game are in a really good place right now, the fluff is all over the place and fortunately we still have the old fluff as the strong core because I can't even imagine what 40k would look like it it was written today.
Except the PA small novellas, they are awesome (proving that they can write properly if they actually want to).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, the only thing that's really similar between them is that they are "hive minds".
Because as we all know, there can only be ever one hive mind in existence, and they can't be competing systems that have their own ways of doing things.
Im not even sure if they Crons be said to have a hive mind. Maybe progromatic control but not networked afaik... ?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, the only thing that's really similar between them is that they are "hive minds".
Because as we all know, there can only be ever one hive mind in existence, and they can't be competing systems that have their own ways of doing things.
Im not even sure if they Crons be said to have a hive mind. Maybe progromatic control but not networked afaik... ?
Well, logically they would have to be networked in order for a single lord / C'tan to control them all.
Its why I really hate how Necrons can apparently speak to each other now by opening their mouths (seriously, that's in the 8th ed codex), because it takes away that silent, mechanical legion aspect and just turns them into metal emos.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, the only thing that's really similar between them is that they are "hive minds".
Because as we all know, there can only be ever one hive mind in existence, and they can't be competing systems that have their own ways of doing things.
Im not even sure if they Crons be said to have a hive mind. Maybe progromatic control but not networked afaik... ?
Well, logically they would have to be networked in order for a single lord / C'tan to control them all.
Its why I really hate how Necrons can apparently speak to each other now by opening their mouths (seriously, that's in the 8th ed codex), because it takes away that silent, mechanical legion aspect and just turns them into metal emos.
Ahh, yes. Yeah I was thinking networked but not single-mind networked. Bad choice of words.
The Cabal and the weird maybe heretics/maybe not thing the Alpha Legion has going on. Just keep them as tactical Chaos Marines.
The Interex-connected idea that you can easily neutralize Chaos forever by the power of education. And generally the Interex as a whole, who felt too much like "everything could go right and be sunshine and lollipops but we're not doing it that way because grimdark".
Make Chaos abstract and incomprehensible again. No running around in Nurgle's literal garden and Slaanesh's literal whorehouse and so on.
Pyroalchi wrote: I'm not that deep into the lore, but from what I read so far I would like it if the sometimes mentioned metaphor of "Astra Militarum = Anvil, Space Marines = Hammer" would also reflect more in the lore.
So in other words instead of:
"100 Imperial Guard Regiments attacking the rebelling Heretics on the Moon XY were slaughtered by the enemy, than some 100 Space Marines flew in and killed every enemy. Hurray Space Marines!"
more something like "The irresistible Astra Militarum attack on the Moon XY was slowed down by a cunningly installed minefield in orbit hindering the mass deployment and turning the battlefield in a bloody stalemate, as the Guard could only reinforce their trenches with 1000 men per day. The tide was turned by 100 Space Marines infiltrating the enemy command center and remotely detonating the minefield. The subsequent planetfall of 100 Imperial Guard regiments within 10 hours ruthlessly crushed any enemy resistence."
=> Space Marines can still save the day and be the deciding factor in large battles, but in the end, the WAR is won by throwing some billion Guardsmen on the problem.
But that may be personal preference.
My head cannon is pretty much the same. SM hit strategically valuable or high threat targets to aid friendly forces. But they can’t single handily conquer a planet with a hundred dudes. That’s unrealistic (yes I said the R word....)
You want all Space Marines never to have happened?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerak wrote: Primaris, perpetuals, newcrons... kind of like Guilliman comming back. Prefarably no other loyal primarchs though. I’d also say that chaos=evil is a bad way to do thing. All deamons falling under the big 4 is absurd. Also I really dislike knights as a concept. Please explain to me why every space marine chapter doesn’t have like 20 knight suits available, or just stick a dreadnought sarcophagus in a knight.
My biggest issue is that 40k has felt smaller for every ed since... 4th maybe? More focused on specific heroes and not the incomprehensible mass of characters affected by what goes on. Actually on that note I dislike that characters don’t feel replaceable anymore. Death should have meaning in 40k. It seems to be way to easy to have super hero bullgak reasons for not dying in the perpetual war that is 40k.
Because Knights are ancient and therefore, on a galactic scale, massively rare. The Mechanicus can build new ones, but only slowly and more often than not by salvaging old parts. Even then, provided you can build however many Knights for each SM Chapter, you still have the same problem as the Mechanicum- the Throne Mechanicus. This is some seriously DAoT gak. It cannot be recreated, and the Imperium’s not going to take them from the Noble Houses by force in case the Knights rebel/destroy the suits. Both possible, and both leave you with no Knights.
Pyroalchi wrote: I'm not that deep into the lore, but from what I read so far I would like it if the sometimes mentioned metaphor of "Astra Militarum = Anvil, Space Marines = Hammer" would also reflect more in the lore.
So in other words instead of:
"100 Imperial Guard Regiments attacking the rebelling Heretics on the Moon XY were slaughtered by the enemy, than some 100 Space Marines flew in and killed every enemy. Hurray Space Marines!"
more something like "The irresistible Astra Militarum attack on the Moon XY was slowed down by a cunningly installed minefield in orbit hindering the mass deployment and turning the battlefield in a bloody stalemate, as the Guard could only reinforce their trenches with 1000 men per day. The tide was turned by 100 Space Marines infiltrating the enemy command center and remotely detonating the minefield. The subsequent planetfall of 100 Imperial Guard regiments within 10 hours ruthlessly crushed any enemy resistence."
=> Space Marines can still save the day and be the deciding factor in large battles, but in the end, the WAR is won by throwing some billion Guardsmen on the problem.
But that may be personal preference.
My head cannon is pretty much the same. SM hit strategically valuable or high threat targets to aid friendly forces. But they can’t single handily conquer a planet with a hundred dudes. That’s unrealistic (yes I said the R word....)
Opponents would adapt and systematically set traps for the spess mahreens. There arent enough marines to sustain any kind of losses.
As someone who started in WHFB- an existing chaos god being birthed by the decadence of space elves was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
As someone who started in WHFB- an existing chaos god being birthed by the decadence of space elves was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
I understand your perspective, doing that though would require a substantial rewrite of the Eldar. All Eldar factions today are built around this event, so to remove it as part of their history removes the cause of their galactic Empire collapse and the specific cultural formations that exist now.
Conversely it would have very little effect on chaos. How slannesh came into being doesn't really affect how slannesh works.
As someone who started in WHFB- an existing chaos god being birthed by the decadence of space elves was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
I understand your perspective, doing that though would require a substantial rewrite of the Eldar. All Eldar factions today are built around this event, so to remove it as part of their history removes the cause of their galactic Empire collapse and the specific cultural formations that exist now.
Conversely it would have very little effect on chaos. How slannesh came into being doesn't really affect how slannesh works.
I dunno.. I have thought about this quite a few times, and I think it would be quite easy to retcon imo.
I would much rather the explanation for the fall be down to the culmination of war in heaven where the old ones with the help of eldar & co. defeated the necrons. So I would like a post galactic sized mutual assured destruction scenario where the necrons "vanished" I.e. went to sleep and the eldar basiclay never managed to rebuild as all of their key home worlds were lost so they now to them, they exist in an essentially galactic mad max. All of their tech seems like space magic to the IOM but to the Eldar its akin to using using decades old WW2 rifles.. Functional but nowhere near the tech we have now.
So the craftworlds have essentially been like seeds but due to the constant fighting and slow growth it just not enough to re-establish the empire simply due to attrition with orks, humans and nids..
DE can just be murderous pirates who like to murder bang I guess
If they never recovered after the war in heaven, then either they've fallen for 60 million years and somehow stayed madmax, or the war in heaven is now only 10s of thousands of years old instead of millions. Which affects all sorts of galactic interactions.
If they didnt create slannesh then their gods weren't eaten so they still exist. The path system would never have existed, phoenix lords wouldn't exist and dark Eldar would be fundamentally different- Thier need to soul drain people which is the cornerstone of their society would be completely gone.
Harlequins wouldn't exist because cegorach never needed to flee to the webway, exodites only existed as a protest against the decadent extremism of the Eldar.
Wraithguard wouldn't exist because they wouldn't be trapping Eldar souls in realspace to avoid slannesh. Eldar would be reincarnating, and still be the ubermensch that that created.
The Eldar population would not be dying because 90% of them weren't consumed, leaving them everywhere throughout the galaxy.
Making them an uninhibited reincarnating psychic race in the trillions spread throughout the galaxy, with no inhibitions or discipline around the use of forbidden world ending technology, no PTSD around their actions and no inward looking psychology.
They would be more conquest thirsty, reckless and violent while also flinging around untempered psychic powers without fear of being consumed by slannesh.
There's a reason they dominated the galaxy for millions of years and the only way they fell was through their own hubris.
1. Their gods can still exists. why not. Not lie it really matters
2. The soul stone technology could be more to achieve immortality/preserve experiance rather than a necessity.
3. Harlequins could still be traveling murder clowns. Cegorah is still alive and kicking even now
4. Exodites can still ecists, they are just more mad maxed then other eldar
5. Again wraithguard can be contructs or simply soul stone tech application.
6. if 95% ded in the assured mutual destruction event it still 95% of them dead. Don't matter if they are eaten by slanseh or just dead cos dead..
7. Do thye have to be so uninhibited? If the IOM can start inventing new tech and work with xenos I don't see why the eldar could just be less gifted/self absorbed.
But yeah the path system would be hard to retcon. Maybe some sort of hierarchical structure/ kryptonian pre-determinism to ensure society ticks over and theres enough warriors, engeneers? I dunno im just making stuff up as I go and certainly there are many areas that wouldn't gel.
Yea realistically there's probably too much overall retcon and there's far too much legacy fluff to back track on. But I think it could certainly be done.
That would be a HUGE change in not just the Lore but in the Eldar aesthetic. They'd pretty much just be pointy-eared, skinny Orkz.
And for that matter, a large reason the Orkz didn't just conquer everything after the War is because the Eldar held them in check. Under this new Lore, that'd be nigh on impossible.
There is absolutely no way GW would ever retcon the birth of Slaanesh in 40k. Way too much woven in there from lore, aesthetics, weapons, the full thing. One can hope however.
I would love to see a little more of the lore between necrons, orks, and eldar however. Everything seems to always be centered around those other power armored losers.
Soul stones were created on crone worlds due to slannesh's birth and can only be sourced there.
My argument wasn't that it's impossible just that it would fundamentally change the Eldar and have big knock on effects in the galaxy dependent on exactly what type of redesign you do to them.
That it's not as simple as just saying 'the Eldar didn't create slannesh'.
Guilliman - He's boring, and should have stayed in the murky past. I think it took away from the endless despair of the 40k setting that suddenly a primarch could just waltz back into the setting. I'm happy for daemon primarchs to be a thing, but I wish that the loyalist ones would all just stay history and myth. I'm also generally not a fan of the Horus Heresy being expanded upon. Like, maybe it was my own head cannon, but did like, none of the imperial fists look at their pauldrons and go "Was this like, a deliberate thing, or...?" when they noticed their emblem - a black fist - matched the shrivelled, mummified hand left behind by Dorn?
Primaris Marines. Their fluff sucks, their design sucks, their posing sucks, their poaching of other characters sucks, their "space marines need to be TALLER!!!!" sizing sucks, their vehicles suck, the way they interact with the rest of the space marine line sucks, they way they're marketed sucks, and it super sucks that GW are trying to re-sell people an army they already have and it's actually working.
Space Wolves. Roman-empire space Catholic crusading Knights who are also megafascists is a silly enough aesthetic that it feels cluttered enough to just about work, within the heavy-metal hyperstimulating cannon of warhammer artwork. Adding in barbarian werewolves with ice weapons and viking stuff who are also goodie-goodies who save civilians but have a dark past is too cluttered.
GSC ridgerunner. IDK why GW thought a faction that is explicitly tied to mining and industry needed a racecar, but I always found it really off-brand and odd. It'd be like deep-sea diving space marines. It feels gimmicky and forced and out of character. Where in a manufactorum are high-speed, low-passenger vehicles ever going to be needed?
Primaris Marines. Their fluff sucks, their design sucks, their posing sucks, their poaching of other characters sucks, their "space marines need to be TALLER!!!!" sizing sucks, their vehicles suck, the way they interact with the rest of the space marine line sucks, they way they're marketed sucks, and it super sucks that GW are trying to re-sell people an army they already have and it's actually working.
It's a good thing that they've not thrown the setting out of the window then, isn't it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they've "ruined the setting".
Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?
And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?
Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?
Yes, you can. It's what you do with a race that is happy and peaceful that the point lies. Look at the Interex in 30k. They're pretty chill guys, and seem to genuinely want to help humanity. They get slaughtered. The Taus being nice works, because you then see how their worldview breaks down in the wider galaxy.
No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end. Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone. Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.
The work that Cawl did himself, you mean? After all, he is essentially the creator of the Black Carapace. Ooh, and that's without mentioning that the Emperor never actually made the Adeptus Astartes - that was led by a scientist called Amar Astarte!
This is my point about making complaints without even reading the lore - you've decided that Cawl HAS to be a mary sue, without looking at the evidence
Read The Great Work. It's got far more in there about Cawl than any other work, and dismantles practically every complaint about him.
He is definitely a marry sue. Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.
Strange, I seem to remember there being Dark Eldar invited into the throne room by the Mechanicus back in I think 7th edition to help repair the failing Golden Throne? Where were all the complaints then?
Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.
You can when a Living Saint, the Chief Librarian and Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights support it.
Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.
es - sacred. And who are the people considered to be sacred and holy and blessed by the Emperor - the Primarchs, Living Saints, and the Custodes? Oh, wait, those are all the people who support Guilliman's stewardship.
Guilliman's a Primarch. It's well recorded that, even IF Guilliman had no legal authority (which he does, granted by the Custodes), people would still adore him because of his transhuman aura.
And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms. The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium. For example, where suddenly disappeared Adeptus Mechanicus tendency to hoard knowledge? To ruthlessly test every bit of new tech to make sure that there is absolutely no way that it might go wrong? Where went all this respect for chapter's relics? Out of a window with new lore. We have to pretend that suddenly all of those things doesn't matter and everyone is fine just being completely different, because there is suddenly a new boss. Civil wars were caused for less than Guiliman did and I assume that it is only due to dire circumstances that such heretical acts were overlooked.
Agreed. For decentralised Legions, there's more than enough room for members to be devoted to Chaos, devoted to singular Gods, or hate everything to do with Chaos.
There's plenty of room for Night Lords to worship a certain god. There's plenty of room for a Death Guard legionary to hate Chaos. The idea that "this Legion hates Chaos" as if the Legion was even properly unified just isn't what we're shown.
As said above - the "extreme professional" Iron Warriors have Berzerkers in their ranks. They use Daemon Engines. They've even been content to summon Daemonic armies and plagues to further their goals.
And Night Lords are led by a demon, so all this theory just falls flat.
Having Librarians has never meant attachment to the Chaos Gods, unless you're implying that the Grey Knights are Chaos worshippers.
Librarians draw power from the Warp. Sorcerors often draw power from the Chaos Gods themselves (of course, there's Sorcerors who have natural psychic power, like Librarians).
There is no such distinction in lore. Both draw power from the warp. These is no fundamental difference between librarian and chaos sorcerer.
And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?
Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?...
Are the giant T5 Havocs on 40mm bases not Chaos Primaris Marines?
I dont have an issue with space wolves.. they could be referred to by their cooler names though, and that baby blue colour scheme? dear god. bring back the heresy era blue grey.
Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?
Age of Sigmar isn't warhammer 40k, no one denies they literally ditched the WFB setting. 40k didn't et that treatment, that said they have been making some changes, but thats normal. setting grow, evolve and yes.. change.
Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?
this has been explained, multiple times, lemme explain it to you nice and simple in a big bold fault. Cawl was one of the scientists who developed space marines in the first p[lace, as such he has insider knowledge of the process. And Primaris Marine crafting was not an exact science. the end result is the best he could do. there where several ideas Cawl could not actually make work Cawl isn't just some dude. he was a personal student of the emperor's.
No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end. Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone. Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
He is definitely a marry sue. Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.
and lore also has enteries that make sense if you stop insisting on a black and white absolutist view of the setting.
Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.
except thats not REALITY. 40k is more nuanced then that.
And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms. The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium. For example, where suddenly disappeared Adeptus Mechanicus tendency to hoard knowledge? To ruthlessly test every bit of new tech to make sure that there is absolutely no way that it might go wrong? Where went all this respect for chapter's relics? Out of a window with new lore. We have to pretend that suddenly all of those things doesn't matter and everyone is fine just being completely different, because there is suddenly a new boss. Civil wars were caused for less than Guiliman did and I assume that it is only due to dire circumstances that such heretical acts were overlooked.
I don't think you Understand, Gulliman is a living saint. he's a DIVINE individual. Bjorn the Fellhanded is held in awe because he walked the stars in the same time the emperor did (and as far as I know had never even been in the same room as the emperor) Gulliman is the emperor's SON, he's talked to him, walked with him. confided in him. I'd use real life parellels except, I'm not sure there are any. Gulliman is, in the eyes of the Imperium, divinity made flesh.
There is one super-obvious one, but the rules probably preclude even referencing it.
Though I am surprised that in this new bold era of whacking you over the head and yelling 'do you get it yet?' they didn't make him look more like Russell Brand.
It's a good thing that they've not thrown the setting out of the window then, isn't it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they've "ruined the setting".
Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?
You'll notice I never claimed they'd never done it before (and it's debatable if they even did it with AoS) - I claimed they hadn't done it with 40k.
The setting, not a setting.
And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?
Difficulties in doing science at such level.
Such difficulties still exist. Just because Space Marines got marginally better doesn't mean the Imperium is suddenly masters of all technology.
Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times.
And failed, because they didn't have Cawl (one of the ORIGINAL SPACE MARINE CREATORS!) working on it.
And guess what - the Imperium HAS improved on the "Emperor's" work many times. Mark VII and VIII power armour, Razorbacks, Centurions, new combat knife STCs (mentioned as a throwaway comment in one of the Gaunts Ghosts novels), to name but a few. Innovation IS a thing in 40k, it's just slow, hidebound, and heavily ritualised. All of which we see with Primaris Marines. While they may have popped up OOC quickly, you have to remember that they've been in the setting's narrative for over 10,000 years. That's not quick by any stretch. Consider that making Space Marines from scratch took nowhere near that time - marginally improving them, at the hands of a scientist who first created them, with near limitless authority and influence, took 10,000 years? How is that setting-breaking?
Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting.
Again, "Emperor's" work - it flat out wasn't. The Primarchs and Custodes were, maybe even the Thunder Warriors. The Space Marines were not.
Also, I'd like to point out that the skinless Raven Guard was a result of Alpha Legion sabotage, and the Cursed Founding has never been properly explained.
So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris?
Why would they?
Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris?
They do have their own equivalents - in the lore. Fabius makes his own improved variants, but even he, master of flesh as he is, isn't one of the OG scientists who originally MADE Space Marines.
You're suggesting that a physics degree student should be as smart as Oppenheimer, simply because they study the same subject.
Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?
Because not every technologically advanced race has the equivalent of Cawl. That's like saying "why doesn't every race have daemons, Chaos do!"
Different factions have different stories. It's not hard.
Yes, you can. It's what you do with a race that is happy and peaceful that the point lies. Look at the Interex in 30k. They're pretty chill guys, and seem to genuinely want to help humanity. They get slaughtered. The Taus being nice works, because you then see how their worldview breaks down in the wider galaxy.
No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end.
Retcon? What retcon?
And again, Interex are still canon.
Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone.
Sounds like you're making a big old assumption there. You speak for the whole fanbase, do you?
Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.
Exactly - which is what makes the Tau so unique from a story perspective! They're still around, so the audience can see what happens when progressive attitudes clash against the grimdarkness, and that conflict makes for very good stories.
After all - there's no shadow without light.
The work that Cawl did himself, you mean? After all, he is essentially the creator of the Black Carapace. Ooh, and that's without mentioning that the Emperor never actually made the Adeptus Astartes - that was led by a scientist called Amar Astarte!
This is my point about making complaints without even reading the lore - you've decided that Cawl HAS to be a mary sue, without looking at the evidence
Read The Great Work. It's got far more in there about Cawl than any other work, and dismantles practically every complaint about him.
He is definitely a marry sue.
Says the person who's literally never read the book.
Read the book, and I'll actually consider what you're saying. Right now, you're just making arguments based on things you choose to remain ignorant on.
Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.
You've clearly not read any new lore aside from 1d4chan, have you?
Strange, I seem to remember there being Dark Eldar invited into the throne room by the Mechanicus back in I think 7th edition to help repair the failing Golden Throne? Where were all the complaints then?
Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.
So where was this whole "the setting's RUINED" spiel then?
You can when a Living Saint, the Chief Librarian and Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights support it.
Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.
Clearly not.
Who put you in charge of what's "proper lore" anyway? You seem to have a very very narrow view of what 40k lore actually is.
es - sacred. And who are the people considered to be sacred and holy and blessed by the Emperor - the Primarchs, Living Saints, and the Custodes? Oh, wait, those are all the people who support Guilliman's stewardship.
Guilliman's a Primarch. It's well recorded that, even IF Guilliman had no legal authority (which he does, granted by the Custodes), people would still adore him because of his transhuman aura.
And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms.
Oooh, like the Custodes! Who- oh, support Guilliman.
The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium.
Absolutely correct - the Imperium's even MORE dogmatic and Primarch obsessed than it used to be!
Thank you for reinforcing my point.
There is no such distinction in lore. Both draw power from the warp. These is no fundamental difference between librarian and chaos sorcerer.
In some cases, there is. A Librarian, by and large, only draws power from the Warp via their own biological gifts (being born a psyker). A Sorceror, on the other hand, can be a ritualist, and without any psychic gifts, can call upon the Warp with the aid of artefacts, rituals, and invocation.
Think of it as the difference between a D&D Sorceror (the Librarian) and a Wizard/Cleric (the Sorceror). Obviously, there's also Chaos Space Marine Sorcerors who have natural psychic gifts, ex-Librarians and suchlike who now fall under the "Sorceror" bracket.
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?
Age of Sigmar isn't warhammer 40k, no one denies they literally ditched the WFB setting. 40k didn't et that treatment, that said they have been making some changes, but thats normal. setting grow, evolve and yes.. change.
Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?
this has been explained, multiple times, lemme explain it to you nice and simple in a big bold fault. Cawl was one of the scientists who developed space marines in the first p[lace, as such he has insider knowledge of the process. And Primaris Marine crafting was not an exact science. the end result is the best he could do. there where several ideas Cawl could not actually make work Cawl isn't just some dude. he was a personal student of the emperor's.
No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end. Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone. Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
He is definitely a marry sue. Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.
and lore also has enteries that make sense if you stop insisting on a black and white absolutist view of the setting.
Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.
except thats not REALITY. 40k is more nuanced then that.
And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms. The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium. For example, where suddenly disappeared Adeptus Mechanicus tendency to hoard knowledge? To ruthlessly test every bit of new tech to make sure that there is absolutely no way that it might go wrong? Where went all this respect for chapter's relics? Out of a window with new lore. We have to pretend that suddenly all of those things doesn't matter and everyone is fine just being completely different, because there is suddenly a new boss. Civil wars were caused for less than Guiliman did and I assume that it is only due to dire circumstances that such heretical acts were overlooked.
I don't think you Understand, Gulliman is a living saint. he's a DIVINE individual. Bjorn the Fellhanded is held in awe because he walked the stars in the same time the emperor did (and as far as I know had never even been in the same room as the emperor) Gulliman is the emperor's SON, he's talked to him, walked with him. confided in him. I'd use real life parellels except, I'm not sure there are any. Gulliman is, in the eyes of the Imperium, divinity made flesh.
Fine points, agreed on all fronts.
So many of the arguments against Guilliman, Cawl, Primaris etc etc come from a place of sheer ignorance and narrow interpretation of the setting. If people actually took a bit of time to open their horizons and read a book with new material in, they'd probably find that things really haven't changed tonally. And, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they actually admitted "I don't really care to read the new stuff, so I'm probably out of the loop, but this is what I know", because they're at least admitting that they're not working with the actual background. It's when you get someone saying "this is the REAL lore, I'm well informed about what the REAL lore is", and they've barely read anything beyond 1d4chan, that's just confusing.
Why make comments about 40k background if you don't actually read it?
So many of the arguments against Guilliman, Cawl, Primaris etc etc come from a place of sheer ignorance and narrow interpretation of the setting. If people actually took a bit of time to open their horizons and read a book with new material in, they'd probably find that things really haven't changed tonally. And, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they actually admitted "I don't really care to read the new stuff, so I'm probably out of the loop, but this is what I know", because they're at least admitting that they're not working with the actual background. It's when you get someone saying "this is the REAL lore, I'm well informed about what the REAL lore is", and they've barely read anything beyond 1d4chan, that's just confusing.
The surface presentation of it is such a turn off I have little interest in reading about how they justify it. And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".
So many of the arguments against Guilliman, Cawl, Primaris etc etc come from a place of sheer ignorance and narrow interpretation of the setting. If people actually took a bit of time to open their horizons and read a book with new material in, they'd probably find that things really haven't changed tonally. And, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with someone if they actually admitted "I don't really care to read the new stuff, so I'm probably out of the loop, but this is what I know", because they're at least admitting that they're not working with the actual background. It's when you get someone saying "this is the REAL lore, I'm well informed about what the REAL lore is", and they've barely read anything beyond 1d4chan, that's just confusing.
The surface presentation of it is such a turn off I have little interest in reading about how they justify it.
At least you admit you haven't read it.
All the same, I am sorry for your loss, but how you spend your time is up to you, and it'd be wrong to expect people to have to stay up-to-speed.
And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: but how you spend your time is up to you, and it'd be wrong to expect people to have to stay up-to-speed.
And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".
Which bits?
Guilliman awakening = boo
Primaris = boo
Cawl = boo
Marneus Calgar and pals "crossing the rubicon" = boo
Cicatrix Maledictum = meh
Magnus and Mortarian being around = yay (they always were, really)
I agree. I have tried reading some of the new stuff, but I did not like it, and the surface level facts of what happened are not appealing to me at all.
But that is fine, because I still have a wealth of background material from the old days to enjoy, and I feel freed from paying attention to what the "real" background is to make my own stuff that I like a lot better.
I wish the changes in the new Imperium did not boil down to so few exceptional characters, I suppose is my main problem with the new background. I would much prefer it if they had advanced the timeline without basing it around a few people as they have done. I like 40K as a setting, not as a story.
But the new stuff does not have to diminish my enjoyment of the old, and if people get something out of it, I am all for it.
The Great Work (novel) clearly illustrates that Cawl is more a gestalt of many, many scientists. Most, but not all, Adeptus Mechanicus and Mechanicum.
It’s also possible he has more than a single body, with back up consciousnesses should he suffer normally fatal damage.
Let’s also face facts. Space Marines as we knew them during The Heresy and up to Guilliman’s return were a rush job. The Emperor salvaging what he could following the abduction of The Primarchs, in what time he had.
See, it’s clear by the pace at which the Great Crusade was readied that The Emperor must’ve had foreknowledge the Warp Storms were about to clear. Because when they did, He and His Legions were ready to go.
I mean, compare to a Primarch, an actual Astartes are but the poorest of copies. Like stick men compared to the Mona Lisa.
Think about it. He started out with Thunder Warriors. They served their purpose, and were replaced. Do you really think he was ever going to stop with the Space Marines as we knew them? I say thee nay. That was very likely never the plan.
Now, look at the organ’s Cawl added to the Primaris. I for one don’t believe for a second he came up with them by himself.
Instead, it’s far, far more likely that Cawl, either through working on the original project, or by Guilliman’s Command, had access to The Emperor’s, well, notebook. Concepts and how-to’s of the organs that would’ve been included from the get-go, had time allowed.
The trouble is, as mentioned at the start of this ramble, Cawl is not a single consciousness. And even in The Great Work, it’s not made at all clear if the man chosen to work on the Astartes project was Cawl in the first place, or just another mind melded to Cawl. Especially as another Genetor Biologis tried to take over Cawl’s body.
He also has separate personality copies working on different projects. So many, he doesn’t remember what he’s working on. We don’t know if his laboratory on Mars includes any part of The Emperor’s own gubbins, or if Cawl built it from scratch.
TL/DR? There’s more to Cawl than those that haven’t read the background might think. Dude is a gestalt consciousness. Who knows how many minds he’s absorbed into the whole.
TL/DR? There’s more to Cawl than those that haven’t read the background might think. Dude is a gestalt consciousness. Who knows how many minds he’s absorbed into the whole.
Which is all kinda cool in concept, etc. with some nice sci-fi underpinnings.
The problem is that I'm already invested in the setting and the army. I love the setting of 40K, there's so much opportunity there, and all the vastness of the galaxy could be explored and many great stories told.
Buuuutttt. . . Cawl, Guilliman etc. feel hamfisted and awkward, and they change some fundamental things about the 40K setting (and game). Heroes coming back from the dead are not something I want in the universe. and they change Space Marines, which are the core/primary faction that many people are invested in. "The army that you have collected for decades is being replaced en masse."
It might be ok as a stand alone sci-fi story, the problem is that Cawl is so plainly a way to sell new Space Marine models. It's gratuitous.
I see no loss myself. No need to apologise save for your own enjoyment.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: but how you spend your time is up to you, and it'd be wrong to expect people to have to stay up-to-speed.
And what I have read gets rates from "meh" to "boo".
Which bits?
Guilliman awakening = boo
Eh, I'm fine with it. He was one the Primarchs who was well established to be able to return (Lion, Khan, Corax, Vulkan, Russ, even Dorn also fit this), and actually brought something interesting to the setting - a higher up character opposed to the state of the Imperium, and, more crucially, unable to change it. It hardly swings the balance of power (yanno, what with literally every other faction gaining more power as well) that one guy just happens to be big and strong and powerful. He's one guy. And honestly, the whole "GW only focuses on these few characters", I can see that point, but it's not an excuse not to make your own stories. GW's always had named characters doing things, ones leading crusades and big battlefields: Guilliman isn't doing anything someone like Ghazghskull or Abaddon or Calgar or Dante hasn't donel, regarding narrative focus. Nothing stops anyone from making their own subsectors and warzones.
Primaris = boo
The concept, or the execution in universe? Concept, well, that's a personal thing. Execution within universe? When you actually really Primaris lore, it's completely fine.
Cawl = boo
Why? He's a 10,000 year old multi-consciousness scientist, who is the last surviving (to our knowledge) scientist of the Space Marine project. I'd think he knows a thing or two more than anyone else on how to make a Space Marine.
Marneus Calgar and pals "crossing the rubicon" = boo
Why? Gives them a new model, and serves as a narrative device too - Primaris were distrusted in universe (omg - looks like everyone saying that everyone just happily accepted the Primaris no questions asked were wrong about that!), and so many leaders became Primaris Marines in order to bridge the gap between the two generations.
Story conflict -----> Resolution. It's got actual narrative beats.
Cicatrix Maledictum = meh
Why meh? It's functionally another Eye of Terror, and provides a lot of story hooks. It reinforces the idea of Chaos actually holding territory, instead of always invading, providing opportunities for Imperial and xenos forces to invade Chaos territory (something that rarely happens in most narratives), allows for isolationist scenarios (Spears of the Emperor) and actually has the Imperium lose meaningful space!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Cawl is also not a single being.
Spoiler:
The Great Work (novel) clearly illustrates that Cawl is more a gestalt of many, many scientists. Most, but not all, Adeptus Mechanicus and Mechanicum.
It’s also possible he has more than a single body, with back up consciousnesses should he suffer normally fatal damage.
Let’s also face facts. Space Marines as we knew them during The Heresy and up to Guilliman’s return were a rush job. The Emperor salvaging what he could following the abduction of The Primarchs, in what time he had.
See, it’s clear by the pace at which the Great Crusade was readied that The Emperor must’ve had foreknowledge the Warp Storms were about to clear. Because when they did, He and His Legions were ready to go.
I mean, compare to a Primarch, an actual Astartes are but the poorest of copies. Like stick men compared to the Mona Lisa.
Think about it. He started out with Thunder Warriors. They served their purpose, and were replaced. Do you really think he was ever going to stop with the Space Marines as we knew them? I say thee nay. That was very likely never the plan.
Now, look at the organ’s Cawl added to the Primaris. I for one don’t believe for a second he came up with them by himself.
Instead, it’s far, far more likely that Cawl, either through working on the original project, or by Guilliman’s Command, had access to The Emperor’s, well, notebook. Concepts and how-to’s of the organs that would’ve been included from the get-go, had time allowed.
The trouble is, as mentioned at the start of this ramble, Cawl is not a single consciousness. And even in The Great Work, it’s not made at all clear if the man chosen to work on the Astartes project was Cawl in the first place, or just another mind melded to Cawl. Especially as another Genetor Biologis tried to take over Cawl’s body.
He also has separate personality copies working on different projects. So many, he doesn’t remember what he’s working on. We don’t know if his laboratory on Mars includes any part of The Emperor’s own gubbins, or if Cawl built it from scratch.
TL/DR? There’s more to Cawl than those that haven’t read the background might think. Dude is a gestalt consciousness. Who knows how many minds he’s absorbed into the whole.
Yup, absolutely correct! Not that it'll persuade people who've already decided that Cawl's a mary sue.
The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.
Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.
The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.
But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.
I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.
As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.
Hellebore wrote: The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.
Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.
The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.
But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.
I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.
Why meh? It's functionally another Eye of Terror, and provides a lot of story hooks. It reinforces the idea of Chaos actually holding territory, instead of always invading, providing opportunities for Imperial and xenos forces to invade Chaos territory (something that rarely happens in most narratives), allows for isolationist scenarios (Spears of the Emperor) and actually has the Imperium lose meaningful space!
You don't need the Cicatrix Maledictum to tell that story. You could easily tell those stories without it. Warp storms happen in 40K all the time.
This is the problem with the way scale is understood. A galaxy, is ****ing BIG. Whatever story you want too tell, there was already plenty of room for it. That was the whole damn point.
Hellebore wrote: The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.
Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.
The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.
But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.
I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.
As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.
Well said! Exalted. This is why I said 'Primarchs', they're the sort of absolute expression of this. Super protagonist who warp the whole setting to be about them.
Hellebore wrote: The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.
Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.
The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.
But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.
I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.
As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.
Well said.
I feel like having all these special characters being focus of factions has limited creativity & customisation options ingame.
I can no longer have ma dude with loadout xyz because there are 2-3 special characters competing for his slot that need to sell..
Hellebore wrote:Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.
I don't know, characters like Abaddon, Yarrick, Thraka, Dante and so on have had their own central narratives (Armageddon, anyone?)
I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, ... his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.
This is the point I'll concede against Cawl. It came out of nowhere from a OOC perspective, but that's something I'm happy to overlook IRL, because it works in universe.
After all, everything has to have a start!
As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.
Cawl is distrusted by pretty much everyone - he would never be accepted into the role of Fabricator General (not that he wants it - but his AI counterpart does, which presents a potential for conflict), Guilliman outright admits he holds Cawl at an arm's length. Besides, by that definition of mary suedom, wouldn't most 40k characters be mary sues? Farsight, Abaddon, Vect, etc etc.
Why meh? It's functionally another Eye of Terror, and provides a lot of story hooks. It reinforces the idea of Chaos actually holding territory, instead of always invading, providing opportunities for Imperial and xenos forces to invade Chaos territory (something that rarely happens in most narratives), allows for isolationist scenarios (Spears of the Emperor) and actually has the Imperium lose meaningful space!
You don't need the Cicatrix Maledictum to tell that story. You could easily tell those stories without it. Warp storms happen in 40K all the time.
You *could*. But it doesn't hurt to have them in it, and provide new locations and strategic plot hooks (Vigilus, Sangua Terra, Nachmund Gauntlet). By that idea of "Warp Storms happen all the time", why have the Eye of Terror at all?
This is the problem with the way scale is understood. A galaxy, is ****ing BIG. Whatever story you want too tell, there was already plenty of room for it. That was the whole damn point.
And you still can. Nothing's changed.
The sandbox exists, but now some more toys have been thrown in if you want some fresh ideas. If you don't, don't play with those toys.
One thing I've heard tossed around is that "Ohh Gulliman is everywhere" which is complete nonsense. Gulliman wasn't at Vigilus (even though narrativly it would have made sense for him to be there, the Ultramarines where presdent, it was a massivly important world, Abaddon had shown up) he wasn't in F&F, so no he's not "everywhere" Hell, the TRAITOR PRIMARCHS have shown up more often then he has. Magus has shown up in 3 major events now.
Hellebore wrote: The requirement for and focus on individual characters to drive the setting is shrinking it.
Previously, characters existed and the setting didn't care. It's actually a pretty unique literary feat to create dozens of characters and have none of them be central to the narrative.
The imperium chews up and spits out a thousand Marbos, calgars, arjac rockfists every day. Because everybody dies and 3verything is lethal. In a setting like 40k, named character survival is entirely plot armour/author fiat, tenuously representing pure probability. The thing is that skill can't save you from a barrage or a bullet. No matter how great Calgar is, he's still only one Bullet through the brain away from being as dead as any other marine. He's not tougher or faster, he can't dodge bullets or repell them.
But they're now trying to pull these characters in as if they are protagonists for the galaxy, rather than people existing and dying in it.
I don't have a huge issue with cawl per se, but he is too important to the narrative. The narrative has been built around him. And his story came out of nowhere. There was no build up or hint dropping, or ambiguous lore that you can draw from.
As for Mary Sue - one of the hallmarks is their drawbacks not actually having any real negative effect (no matter what the story might say the effect is - it's not born out by the action) and often they end up being backdoor strengths. From my observations, cawl seems to have these.
Think this pretty much nailed it. Unless you literaly break the rules of reality as is the case with some chaos followers (Lucian being the obvious example) or do the Eldar thing where the suit preserves the identities then your life should be cheap. As an example on how to do this properly look to Yarrick. He has been close to death on many occasions, losing his arm, eye and actually only being alive because Ghazkull decided he liked to keep it that way. Everything just feels... smaller when you have all theese superheroes that kick ass and stay alive just because.
Yeah, 40k doesn't feel as dark as it used to. Its becoming less like berserk and more like DBZ. In a year or so they'll bring back the Emperor and give him the ability to go super psyker blue.
Da Boss wrote: One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.
That's where I left off - when it was ambiguous. I assumed the Emperor was long dead and the golden throne + dead psykers did the rest. Clearly I missed a piece of major modern lore, so - even though I am sure I'm not going to like the answer to what I am about to ask - what did I miss?
Guilleman went and had a conversation with the Emperor on the Golden Throne. He found out that the Emperor does not love him, or the rest of humanity, but coldly sees them as tools, and then lied to everyone about it for the sake of the Imperium, but he was sad about it.
Da Boss wrote: One piece? That is difficult. If I had to choose, I think it would definitely be the confirmation that the Emperor is "alive" and sentient on the Golden Throne. The ambiguity about whether the entire Imperium was worshipping a literal corpse god was one of the cooler things in the setting.
That's where I left off - when it was ambiguous. I assumed the Emperor was long dead and the golden throne + dead psykers did the rest. Clearly I missed a piece of major modern lore, so - even though I am sure I'm not going to like the answer to what I am about to ask - what did I miss?
Da Boss wrote: Guilleman went and had a conversation with the Emperor on the Golden Throne. He found out that the Emperor does not love him, or the rest of humanity, but coldly sees them as tools, and then lied to everyone about it for the sake of the Imperium, but he was sad about it.
Which, arguably, is further reinforcement of the grimdark setting and how Guilliman's return doesn't really change all that much.
We have a character who is one of the most well meaning and stereotypically "good" characters in the setting, compromising on everything they believe, their own morals and sense of honour, to give a little bit of false hope to the people in the empire he's unintentionally inherited, further boosting the influence of his biggest political rival, keeping the Imperium reliant on theocracy and dogma.
Similarly, their own faith in the ruler of his empire, and own father, has been irrevocably shaken, and his own self-identity has just undergone an existential crisis (in that he's well aware he only exists as a tool, not a person).
And yet, they must ignore all of that to keep humanity alive for a little longer, and buy into the myth he knows is a fake.
The charge that the setting now revolves around a few characters always rings hollow.
Guilliman and Cawl are usually the prime targets for the accusation, but if you read the newer fluff you'll see they're only directly involved in a handful of events.
Guilliman has been tied up in the Plague war narrative from the beginning of the edition, and Cawl hasn't been up to much either.
They ushered in the Primaris, but that shouldn't be taken as them now being the "main characters."
Animus wrote: The charge that the setting now revolves around a few characters always rings hollow.
Guilliman and Cawl are usually the prime targets for the accusation, but if you read the newer fluff you'll see they're only directly involved in a handful of events.
Guilliman has been tied up in the Plague war narrative from the beginning of the edition, and Cawl hasn't been up to much either.
They ushered in the Primaris, but that shouldn't be taken as them now being the "main characters."
This - how much stuff was Calgar in prior to Guilliman outranking him?
Ichar IV, Damnos, 2nd Armageddon War, Tyrannic Wars, Vigilus,Iron Warrior invasion of Ultramar, to name but a few.
In fact, whenever practically ANY of the first founding Chapters have gone to battle, hasn't one of their special characters been present?
Damocles Crusade/Aggrellan Campaign - Sicarius, Shrike, Khan, even Farsight, Aun'Va, Shadowsun, and Darkstrider.
Armageddon - Tu'Shan, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, Tycho, Ghazzy, Wazdakka, Yarrick, Nazdreg (doesn't Belial even show up in the prelude, on Piscina?)
Not even going to begin with the 13th Black Crusade, way way WAY too many named characters there.
Basically, named characters have always popped up a lot. It's never stopped you from doing things with your guys. When the Black Crusades were going down, my guys were in their own subsector, doing something completely unrelated, because who cares what the published story events are?
Calgar didn't conjure up Primaris out of nowhere, or talk to the Emperor, or unleash Custodes. Nor is Calgar a returning Primarch, and all the baggage that brings with it.
Calgar showed up to some battles, because that's what Chapter Masters do. Calgar is one of a thousand Chapter Masters, and a template for your own Chapter characters.
Guilliman is not a template, he is an individual who has played a significant role in heralding sweeping changes to the landscape of the setting.
Even when Calgar was involved in something significant (like the Tyranid invasion of Macragge/Ultramar) the conflict remained localized. The effect is that you have dramatic events that still, on the galactic scale, are effectively tiny. The setting of 40K doesn't change.
And yeah, even then I'd say that stories about specific characters were overused.
Insectum7 wrote: Calgar didn't conjure up Primaris out of nowhere, or talk to the Emperor, or unleash Custodes.
In-universe, Primaris are completely justified. You have a problem with GW springing them up from nowhere, which I appreciate, but is a different thing.
Talking to divinity is hardly new. Hence we have prophets of certain gods (Thraka), chosen ones of the gods (Abaddon) or living avatars empowered by them (Celestine).
Custodes should always have been present. In fact, I'm fairly sure the Custodes codex makes mention of Custodes actually have been active, but not in force.
Nor is Calgar a returning Primarch, and all the baggage that brings with it.
That's just a Primarch issue though, not a "the universe revolves around Guilliman" issue.
Calgar showed up to some battles, because that's what Chapter Masters do. Calgar is one of a thousand Chapter Masters, and a template for your own Chapter characters.
And what about Thraka, chosen prophet of Gork and Mork? What about Farsight? Aun'Va? Vect? Abaddon?
I appreciate that Calgar is "just" a Chapter Master, but there's plenty of named characters out there who are essentially identical in equivalent rank to Guilliman, who've been around far far longer.
Guilliman is not a template, he is an individual who has played a significant role in heralding sweeping changes to the landscape of the setting.
Like Abaddon then? Uniting the armies of Chaos to his banner, leading setting-wide Chaos incursions and iconic crusade after crusade? Or Thraka, similarly uniting thousands upon thousands of Waaaagh!s to his own, and creating one of the largest battlezones in the setting?
Admit it - the only reason you're fine with these ones is because they've been around longer, and the sticker shock of Guilliman still hasn't worn off.
New fans to the setting will come in and be like "oh, Guilliman and Abaddon are both figureheads of large armies, Imperium and Chaos respectively", and that'll be that.
Even when Calgar was involved in something significant (like the Tyranid invasion of Macragge/Ultramar) the conflict remained localized. The effect is that you have dramatic events that still, on the galactic scale, are effectively tiny. The setting of 40K doesn't change.
But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage. Things like the Damocles Crusade and Aggrellan Campaigns were still pretty large in their own right as well.
And yeah, even then I'd say that stories about specific characters were overused.
Well, that's been a thing for decades now - not a new thing. And, for decades still, people have made their own characters, their own backgrounds, and their own events.
This will not change.
Animus wrote: The charge that the setting now revolves around a few characters always rings hollow.
Guilliman and Cawl are usually the prime targets for the accusation, but if you read the newer fluff you'll see they're only directly involved in a handful of events.
Guilliman has been tied up in the Plague war narrative from the beginning of the edition, and Cawl hasn't been up to much either.
They ushered in the Primaris, but that shouldn't be taken as them now being the "main characters."
This - how much stuff was Calgar in prior to Guilliman outranking him?
Ichar IV, Damnos, 2nd Armageddon War, Tyrannic Wars, Vigilus,Iron Warrior invasion of Ultramar, to name but a few.
In fact, whenever practically ANY of the first founding Chapters have gone to battle, hasn't one of their special characters been present?
Damocles Crusade/Aggrellan Campaign - Sicarius, Shrike, Khan, even Farsight, Aun'Va, Shadowsun, and Darkstrider.
Armageddon - Tu'Shan, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, Tycho, Ghazzy, Wazdakka, Yarrick, Nazdreg (doesn't Belial even show up in the prelude, on Piscina?)
Not even going to begin with the 13th Black Crusade, way way WAY too many named characters there.
Basically, named characters have always popped up a lot. It's never stopped you from doing things with your guys. When the Black Crusades were going down, my guys were in their own subsector, doing something completely unrelated, because who cares what the published story events are?
I certainly didn't claim it's only suddenly happened. in fact, you can go back 10 years on warseer to find my comments on Matt Ward's writing during 5th ed and how I said this was a conscious effort to mAke the game more character centric. He created draigo and the sanguinor as totally OTT characters who seemed to be suddenly IMPORTANT (TM).he elevated Calgar to one punch marn and Worfed avatars for the next 10 years.
It has only continued since then. The current (specifically imperial but also Eldar) characters are now at the Centre of the Warhammer 40,000 narrative as a whole, rather than being Heroes of specific instances in the overall tapestry of the galaxy.
Yarrick was the hero of Hades hive - but there are a thousand heroes of a thousand hives across the galaxy. Armageddon is just one of many battlezones. What happens there has little impact on the galaxy at large. Draigo caused issues that cawl and guilliman haven't because he effectively attacked the metaphysics of 40k itself, which is not a smart or clever thing to do. I have a whole rant about how terrible a design choice he was. I actually stepped back from 40k at that point because I really didn't like where it was going.
Even Abaddons black crusades have had no real affect on the galaxy - until now. They were huge invasions and caused massive wars but "the galaxy is a big place and no matter what happens, you will not be missed". The galaxy of 40k didn't fundamentally swing on abaddon's actions.
I think much of this can be attributed to the success of the Horus heresy series. GW saw how much Warhammer 40k: protagonist division was popular with the weight of the entire galaxy hanging on the supershoulders of a few and thought maybe they could replicate it in 40k.
But in the end, we now have galactic consequences hanging on to the decisions of a few characters.
Before now the closest characters in 40k that had that affect are postumous - macharius actually reshaped the galaxy to some extent. But it fell apart after Alexander died.
Now we have characters who have reshaped their own faction to the point it appears in models rather than just in text. Now the universe is smaller and the deeds larger that it isn't a setting anymore. There is now a narrative with protagonists who determine the outcomes of the galaxy.
I certainly didn't claim it's only suddenly happened. in fact, you can go back 10 years on warseer to find my comments on Matt Ward's writing during 5th ed and how I said this was a conscious effort to mAke the game more character centric. He created draigo and the sanguinor as totally OTT characters who seemed to be suddenly IMPORTANT (TM).he elevated Calgar to one punch marn and Worfed avatars for the next 10 years.
I used to argue with you around those issues too . I'm still ok with the rough events of the Calgar story. But you were 100% right about the "character elevation" trend.
Hellebore wrote:I certainly didn't claim it's only suddenly happened. in fact, you can go back 10 years on warseer to find my comments on Matt Ward's writing during 5th ed and how I said this was a conscious effort to mAke the game more character centric. He created draigo and the sanguinor as totally OTT characters who seemed to be suddenly IMPORTANT (TM).he elevated Calgar to one punch marn and Worfed avatars for the next 10 years.
In which case, I respect your committment and consistency.
I maintain that having certain characters do awesome things and have stories written about them shouldn't stop anyone creating their own stories and characters and narratives, and I don't think the game is character "centric". Are there "canon" characters? Yes. Are they important? To varying degrees, yes. Does that stop you having your own? No.
It has only continued since then. The current (specifically imperial but also Eldar) characters are now at the Centre of the Warhammer 40,000 narrative as a whole, rather than being Heroes of specific instances in the overall tapestry of the galaxy.
Yarrick was the hero of Hades hive - but there are a thousand heroes of a thousand hives across the galaxy. Armageddon is just one of many battlezones. What happens there has little impact on the galaxy at large.
Well, except that Armageddon was a pretty critical production location, occupied a powerful strategic location, and both sides had pretty much thrown so much into the battle that whoever "lost" would lose hard.
Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Imperium lose Armageddon? Orks now occupy a powerful strategic location, the morale and material loss is massive, and the Orks are further emboldened.
Arguably, Armageddon is only so important because people in-universe made it symbolically important, but isn't that just the most 40k thing ever?
TL;DR - Armageddon isn't just any other Hive World. It's a great example of what *can* happen, but it's certainly significant and unique, and has real ramifications for both sides.
Draigo caused issues that cawl and guilliman haven't because he effectively attacked the metaphysics of 40k itself, which is not a smart or clever thing to do.
In all fairness, doesn't Draigo literally fail at causing any kind of damage or change? By all means, I'm of the opinion that Draigo should be unable to cause any proper damage to the Chaos Gods - but he doesn't. He destroys things, sure, but they always get repaired, and the damage is undone. It's a Sisyphean task.
Even Abaddons black crusades have had no real affect on the galaxy - until now. They were huge invasions and caused massive wars but "the galaxy is a big place and no matter what happens, you will not be missed". The galaxy of 40k didn't fundamentally swing on abaddon's actions.
I'd argue that it definitely did (causing the founding of several Astartes chapters, diverting and raising millions of regiments of Guardsmen, and the very creation of the Cadians, GW's flagship regiment). The whole "you will not be missed" is still true. It's still a big place, and you will still be missed... but there's always been exceptions. The moment GW named ANY of their characters and had them be recurring, they could be "missed".
But in the end, we now have galactic consequences hanging on to the decisions of a few characters.
Before now the closest characters in 40k that had that affect are postumous - macharius actually reshaped the galaxy to some extent. But it fell apart after Alexander died.
Now we have characters who have reshaped their own faction to the point it appears in models rather than just in text. Now the universe is smaller and the deeds larger that it isn't a setting anymore. There is now a narrative with protagonists who determine the outcomes of the galaxy.
Again, been the case for decades. Not that it's been stopping anyone from doing their own campaigns.
Suddenly, you WILL be missed.
What does "missed" really even mean? In universe? Obviously not, there's plenty of cases where the loss of a character has caused massive shockwaves in pretty integral lore (the Emperor and Horus, Goge Vandire, any martyred character, Macharius, etc etc). Important in the definition of whole factions? Yes also (Emperor/Horus, Vect, Sebastian Thor, etc etc). Out of universe? Obviously so.
So, what does "you will not be missed" mean?
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Da Boss wrote: Guilleman went and had a conversation with the Emperor on the Golden Throne. He found out that the Emperor does not love him, or the rest of humanity, but coldly sees them as tools, and then lied to everyone about it for the sake of the Imperium, but he was sad about it.
I just read that little bit of lore from whatever book it was in, and yes, that is now the piece of lore I would like to see gone forever.
I guess my second place would be the bloodtide or whatever, when the Grey Knights butchered the Sisters for their blood.
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Ok. . .
So your argument is the Armageddon campaign is roughly equivalent to a Primarch returning, Space Marines being replaced en masse, and the Eye of Terror expanding across the galaxy.
That appears to be the case you're trying to make.
Can you understand how those are not equivalent things?
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Ok. . .
So your argument is the Armageddon campaign is roughly equivalent to a Primarch returning, Space Marines being replaced en masse, and the Eye of Terror expanding across the galaxy.
No, because you're comparing three things in one.
Guilliman returning is a separate event to the onset of the Primaris Marines, which is a separate event to the Eye of Terror expanding. They might be caused by one another, but they are separate events.
By that same virtue, the Black Crusades are the same event as the Eye of Terror expanding, and Guilliman returning, because they followed in a causal chain, which would destroy the premise of "the new stuff = bad, old stuff = good".
Guilliman returning is fine, because he doesn't change anything fundamental about the setting. He is, for all intents and purposes, a bigger Chapter Master. He doesn't do anything more extreme than Goge Vandire.
Primaris coming in is fine, because it's not like the Imperium has never made super soldiers, grav-tech, better armour/weapons, or more Chapters before, and when you actually remember that it took Cawl 10,000 years to make these slight improvements to the design he already made, it's really not that bad.*
The Eye of Terror expanding has changed nothing about how you interact with the setting. You still have infinite room to play your own battles, the impact of Chaos have been raised, Abaddon feels like less of a failure, and this has been foreshadowed for a few editions now (I think the 6th ed Chaos Codex makes a reference to this being Abaddon's plan).
Individually, each is just as fine as Armageddon, IMO.
*now, the fact that Primaris weren't set up OOC, and just popped up from nowhere in OUR universe, is a different matter, but that shouldn't matter when talking from an in-universe perspective, no?
Can you understand how those are not equivalent things?
Of course they're not equivalent - you're comparing three major events to one event.
Now, comparing any of them to Armageddon? Yeah, I think they're equivalently important and central events. Same as things like the Tyranids arriving, the Damocles Gulf, the Slaughter at Sanctuary 101, the 13th Black Crusade, the Abyssal Crusade, Badab War, etc etc.
If you disagree, that's fine, but in my perception, they're equally important events, and if all treated fairly without the rose tinted glasses, they'd all be guilty of "making the universe a smaller place".
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Crimson wrote:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
We probably cannot. It is obviously true, but some people have terrible taste.
Ah yes, the good old "my opinion is obviously the right one an obviously objectively correct, and anyone who has a different one is objectively wrong and has terrible taste."
Ouze wrote: I guess my second place would be the bloodtide or whatever, when the Grey Knights butchered the Sisters for their blood.
If it makes you feel better, all Grey Knights codexes past 5th have changed it so the Sisters were already dead when the GK showed up. Doesn't clear up the whole problem with that piece, but imho it clears up the most egregious part.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Crimson wrote:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
We probably cannot. It is obviously true, but some people have terrible taste.
Ah yes, the good old "my opinion is obviously the right one an obviously objectively correct, and anyone who has a different one is objectively wrong and has terrible taste."
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Crimson wrote:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
We probably cannot. It is obviously true, but some people have terrible taste.
Ah yes, the good old "my opinion is obviously the right one an obviously objectively correct, and anyone who has a different one is objectively wrong and has terrible taste."
Stay mad. I'm gonna enjoy the setting.
Some opinions are wrong though...
I actually enjoy the Primarch and G man fluff. Also the Primaris stuff I actually like too.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Some opinions are wrong though...
Okay.
Your opinion is wrong.
See how utterly ridiculous that is for me to claim?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SeanDavid1991 wrote: I actually enjoy the Primarch and G man fluff. Also the Primaris stuff I actually like too.
Edit* Added Primaris
Nah, clearly you're wrong for having that opinion, and have absolutely no taste. How DARE someone disagree with the Almighty Wisdom of queen_annes_revenge!
As many have pointed out their lore just doesn't seem to fit with the falling apart Imperium lore. Do they look cool? Yes. Great sculpting? Yes. Nice product? Yes.
But seriously their wounds vs. points costs? I don't get it. And kept secret while war going on? Nah.
I just act as if all the stories, fluff, and art are unreliable narrators. That way if there's a piece of lore I don't like, I just headcanon it into something I do.
Like: the rubicon Primaris was actually invented back in the day when the Imperium actually knew how to invent things. It wasn't kept secret---it was forgotten. And only recently did somebody rediscover it. Or maybe Primaris is actually just a new (rediscovered) mark of armor hyped up into something bigger. Perhaps it was Cawl, claiming to have invented it. Or perhaps Cawl only claimed to have found it but some in the Imperium are suspicious that it's actually some kind of tech-heresy. Or the Imperium is claiming to have invented it to mask their civilization's stagnation and decline. All of these options are more interesting and more consistent with core 40K themes than the "official" lore.
Like: the rubicon Primaris was actually invented back in the day when the Imperium actually knew how to invent things. It wasn't kept secret---it was forgotten. And only recently did somebody rediscover it.
I'd love to go back to the days when Mat Ward's puerile writing was the worst thing in the 40K fluff. Since then GW has fully gone: "Oh, you think Draigo was bad; hold my beer!"
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Ok. . .
So your argument is the Armageddon campaign is roughly equivalent to a Primarch returning, Space Marines being replaced en masse, and the Eye of Terror expanding across the galaxy.
No, because you're comparing three things in one.
Guilliman returning is a separate event to the onset of the Primaris Marines, which is a separate event to the Eye of Terror expanding. They might be caused by one another, but they are separate events.
By that same virtue, the Black Crusades are the same event as the Eye of Terror expanding, and Guilliman returning, because they followed in a causal chain, which would destroy the premise of "the new stuff = bad, old stuff = good".
Guilliman returning is fine, because he doesn't change anything fundamental about the setting. He is, for all intents and purposes, a bigger Chapter Master. He doesn't do anything more extreme than Goge Vandire.
Primaris coming in is fine, because it's not like the Imperium has never made super soldiers, grav-tech, better armour/weapons, or more Chapters before, and when you actually remember that it took Cawl 10,000 years to make these slight improvements to the design he already made, it's really not that bad.*
The Eye of Terror expanding has changed nothing about how you interact with the setting. You still have infinite room to play your own battles, the impact of Chaos have been raised, Abaddon feels like less of a failure, and this has been foreshadowed for a few editions now (I think the 6th ed Chaos Codex makes a reference to this being Abaddon's plan).
Individually, each is just as fine as Armageddon, IMO.
*now, the fact that Primaris weren't set up OOC, and just popped up from nowhere in OUR universe, is a different matter, but that shouldn't matter when talking from an in-universe perspective, no?
Can you understand how those are not equivalent things?
Of course they're not equivalent - you're comparing three major events to one event.
Now, comparing any of them to Armageddon? Yeah, I think they're equivalently important and central events. Same as things like the Tyranids arriving, the Damocles Gulf, the Slaughter at Sanctuary 101, the 13th Black Crusade, the Abyssal Crusade, Badab War, etc etc.
If you disagree, that's fine, but in my perception, they're equally important events, and if all treated fairly without the rose tinted glasses, they'd all be guilty of "making the universe a smaller place".
Nice try. You're welcome to your opinion, buuut. . .
Armageddon Subsector:
Spoiler:
The Great Rift:
Spoiler:
Your opinion is wrong.
Claiming that these two events are even close to the same level of magnitude is pants-on-head levels of incorrect.
Armageddon is the ancient tale of a proud and noble race reclaiming what was once theirs from an interloping race. The Humans will rue the day they ever stepped foot on holy Ullanor!
Also keep Angron away from our planet. Why does he get to have it now and hijack the plot from us Orks!
Big Mac wrote: Kal Draigo going into the warp and fight demons in their turf, every fluff Matty Ward writes. There is a reason GW don’t publish the author behind their codexes, instead it publish the whole team.
Ward left the company before even Age Of Sigmar. His last thing for GW was The End Times. Cruddace is in charge of 40k army books right now, which is why Nids are stuck as eternally bland and IG keep getting better.
Primaris marine's new hover tanks. For me it just clashes with the Imperium aesthetic. I get that they're new and progressive, but they just need to stay on the ground. I'm slowly beginning to suspect Cawl of secretly being two Tau wrapped in a robe.
Insectum7 wrote:Nice try. You're welcome to your opinion, buuut. . .
Armageddon Subsector:
Spoiler:
The Great Rift:
Spoiler:
Nice maps, but well done for missing my point. Who cares how big they are, when there's effectively infinite space around it?
That's my point about 40k maps, and the universe as a whole. No matter how big the system, the subsector, or the galaxy, there is ALWAYS room for your guys.
Armageddon is as large as it needs to be in order to allow for everyone's homebrew dudes to have fought there. Same as the Black Crusades. Same as Vigilus. Same as any other large war in 40k - there's always room for your guys to have been involved in some way.
The official battle roster doesn't mention your guys? That's just because the roster was made before your guys arrived, or maybe your guys just didn't get counted by Imperial census takers.
My point stands - the Great Rift is an event like any other major event in 40k.
Your opinion is wrong.
No u.
If you're incapable of making a halfway decent argument without resorting to what is essentially trolling, I see no reason to humour you.
Claiming that these two events are even close to the same level of magnitude is pants-on-head levels of incorrect.
As above; no u.
nareik wrote:Great rift is not really comparable to Armageddon. More like the arrival of hive fleet Leviathon, or maybe the release of Primaris marines.
I don't know - the Armageddon campaigns create a massive destablisation in that subsector, drawing in even reinforcements from Terra, and have caused exponentially massive numbers of Orks to join Thraka's banner.
But, regardless, that you compare the Rift to the arrival of Leviathan is proof of my point that old fluff is just as guilty of being "too important" as the new stuff.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage.
Armageddon does not come close to comparing with the Great rift.
Call me a troll all you like, but when I say one event is far larger, and you say "well, nuh-uh". I call BS and question the credibility of your arguments. You can try and hide behind an alternative "point" about sandbox or whatever, but the importance and effect of those to events are magnitudes apart.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage.
Armageddon does not come close to comparing with the Great rift.
In your opinion.
Call me a troll all you like, but when I say one event is far larger, and you say "well, nuh-uh". I call BS and question the credibility of your arguments.
Well, firstly, you'd have to prove that your opinion is objectively correct.
Since you are unable to do so, I suggest you give up, and just accept we have different opinions. I'm not saying you're objectively wrong, I'm saying I disagree.
You've given your opinion. I've given my opinion how I disagree with yours. You've now just said "no, you can't disagree, because I'm objectively right".
Surely you can see how ignorant that is?
You can try and hide behind an alternative "point" about sandbox or whatever, but the importance and effect of those to events are magnitudes apart.
In your opinion.
All I have to do, to have the same weight as your arguments, is just repeat what you've said, with an "aren't" instead of the "are". That's how paper-thin your argument is.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage.
Armageddon does not come close to comparing with the Great rift.
In your opinion.
Call me a troll all you like, but when I say one event is far larger, and you say "well, nuh-uh". I call BS and question the credibility of your arguments.
Well, firstly, you'd have to prove that your opinion is objectively correct.
Since you are unable to do so, I suggest you give up, and just accept we have different opinions. I'm not saying you're objectively wrong, I'm saying I disagree.
You've given your opinion. I've given my opinion how I disagree with yours. You've now just said "no, you can't disagree, because I'm objectively right".
Surely you can see how ignorant that is?
You can try and hide behind an alternative "point" about sandbox or whatever, but the importance and effect of those to events are magnitudes apart.
In your opinion.
All I have to do, to have the same weight as your arguments, is just repeat what you've said, with an "aren't" instead of the "are". That's how paper-thin your argument is.
If you're comfortable holding an opinion that's counter to readily accessible data, be my guest. I have some flat-earther videos to point you to.
Insectum7 wrote: If you're comfortable holding an opinion that's counter to readily accessible data, be my guest.
Please - demonstrate to us all how your opinion can only be objectively correct, and never false.
I'm waiting.
You'r going to be waiting for a long time. I didn't state an opinion, I posted a verifiable claim, and posted data to back it up. You, on the other hand, are simply hiding behind the word "opinion" because you can't counter the data.
I have some flat-earther videos to point you to.
Sorry, did you just compare having a different interpretation of a fictional universe to being ignorant to millennia-old scientific data?
I sure did, because the user-mechanics in this case are the same.
If you're going to make a claim, back it up. This is the lore channel, so find some lore. I claim that two events are orders of magnitude apart. I posted reference to this point. Your counter is to cry "opinion!", and to offer no other counter argument. Make a substantive counter.
Insectum7 wrote: You'r going to be waiting for a long time. I didn't state an opinion, I posted a verifiable claim, and posted data to back it up.
No, you didn't.
You posted two maps, and claimed that one was more important than the other. How do you prove "importance", especially in a fictional universe? You've not made a "verifiable claim" at all, you've stated an opinion, and claimed that two maps in a made-up universe are objective proof of how one is important and how another is not. There isn't a crumb of objective or solid data in there at all that exists beyond the sphere of your opinion.
Until you can address this point (that you can objectively prove things relating to a fictional universe), I see no reason to discuss this with you.
Insectum7 wrote: You'r going to be waiting for a long time. I didn't state an opinion, I posted a verifiable claim, and posted data to back it up.
No, you didn't.
You posted two maps, and claimed that one was more important than the other. How do you prove "importance", especially in a fictional universe? You've not made a "verifiable claim" at all, you've stated an opinion, and claimed that two maps in a made-up universe are objective proof of how one is important and how another is not. There isn't a crumb of objective or solid data in there at all that exists beyond the sphere of your opinion.
Until you can address this point (that you can objectively prove things relating to a fictional universe), I see no reason to discuss this with you.
In a argument about lore, one cites lore.
One map represents a much larger space than the other. I claim that this means one event is more important than the other.
You posted some maps. That is lore. I agree. What you didn't do was explain how that lore was important, or in any way "objective". You made the point that one map is more important than another. Where's the evidence of that? Where's the lore behind that? You didn't post any.
One map represents a much larger space than the other. I claim that this means one event is more important than the other.
Larger space isn't absolute in terms of importance. Terra is one planet, yet is it more important in 40k's mythos, history, and current setting than the entire Segmentus Pacificus. You know, that sector that got nearly completely lost to the Imperium not once, but twice? I don't really hear much about that, but I guess because 'it more big, it more important'.
Back to the drawing board, I suppose - can prove to me that your opinions are objectively correct?
(For what it's worth, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "only" having an opinion. You're allowed opinions. Just don't pretend like they're objective facts, is what I'm saying.)
Scale isn't the end-all be all, but within that scale is numbers.
Armageddon is a Hive World, of which there are. . . perhaps thousands?
The Great Rift has likely swallowed wholesale a great many Hive Worlds. So, for funsies, let's say 100 Armageddons are now in unstable warp space and potentially cut off from the worlds they would normally be supporting/be supported by.
So 1 Armageddon, vs. 100 Armageddons. And there's your difference.
flandarz wrote: But are those 100 Armageddons more important to the overall narrative of the 40k universe than the single one that got a story?
Armageddon is one of them, according to the 7th Ed rule book.
Also, it's unlikely that Armageddon is a super-fancy hive world. According to the Armageddon book, Armageddon is very important to the. . . Armageddon sub-sector. "Whole systems" depend on it. That's pretty par for the course of a Hive World, as all Hive Worlds are industrial bases and mass recruitment centers.
Btw, my initial number of 1000 Hive Worlds was way low according to 40K fandom, which says ". . . there are approximately 32,380 currently catalogued by the Administratum in the Imperium of Man."
So Cicatrix Maledictum covering 10% of the galaxy nets us 3,238 Armageddons. Fudge the numbers if you want, and say Armageddon is a "major" Hive World. . . . but you're still contending with a substantially lopsided comparison, to say the least.
The thing I think Smudge is getting at is that Armageddon is important in terms of the 40k narrative. Is it as important as the entire Rift? I dunno. But it was important enough to warrant being the focus of a story.
flandarz wrote: The thing I think Smudge is getting at is that Armageddon is important in terms of the 40k narrative. Is it as important as the entire Rift? I dunno. But it was important enough to warrant being the focus of a story.
Armageddon is a 40K story. One of thousands of possible 40K stories of similar size and importance to the 40K universe. Armageddon is fundamentally just a template, that actually has little, if any, greater bearing on the setting of 40K as a whole. Armageddon was originally based off a series of games that the studio itself played. Ghazghul Thrakka was originally just one of the Ork Bosses that some studio personality made. That's the difference some of us are getting at. Armageddon is mostly an example of "This is how you can tell a 40K story, now make up your own characters and tell one yourself." You can have your own "important" Hive World and it's no more or less important the Armageddon.
It was arguably the same with named characters in those days. Most of the time you could build characters that out shined the studio ones. You could make a Chaos Lord that made Abaddon look like a chump. The idea was, "Here's the tool set and some examples, now go do it yourself. We've created this universe expansive enough for all of your creations."
flandarz wrote: I agree with that 100%. I was under the impression we were discussing "which canonical event or place is more important in the 40k setting?"
One story changes the fate of a relatively small number of systems associated with Armageddon.
One story redraws the galactic map, affecting potentially thousands of Armageddons and associated systems.
I'm arguing that one is of vastly larger scope and far more impactfull to the setting.
I'd also argue it represents a sort of gratuitous scale inflation that's bad for the setting. Couple that with your long lost heroes returning from the dead and. . . it's a shift.
Not that it can't be still GrimDark. But we had a setting in which the legendary heroes of the past were all lost, but major villains of the past were functionally or literally immortal. Imo there's a certain gravitas to that.
I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.
Insectum7 wrote:Scale isn't the end-all be all, but within that scale is numbers.
Armageddon is a Hive World, of which there are. . . perhaps thousands?
The Great Rift has likely swallowed wholesale a great many Hive Worlds. So, for funsies, let's say 100 Armageddons are now in unstable warp space and potentially cut off from the worlds they would normally be supporting/be supported by.
So 1 Armageddon, vs. 100 Armageddons. And there's your difference.
All I'll say is that there's a reason we're talking about Armageddon, and not the others.
Armageddon may once have been "just another invasion", in the 2nd War, perhaps, but the 3rd War is completely unique and the stakes are far higher.
flandarz wrote: The thing I think Smudge is getting at is that Armageddon is important in terms of the 40k narrative. Is it as important as the entire Rift? I dunno. But it was important enough to warrant being the focus of a story.
Yeah, that was my point - in terms of storytelling in 40k, they are both important narrative events. Hell, Armageddon is probably more important to the Ork narrative than the Great Rift is!
Insectum7 wrote:Armageddon is a 40K story. One of thousands of possible 40K stories of similar size and importance to the 40K universe. Armageddon is fundamentally just a template, that actually has little, if any, greater bearing on the setting of 40K as a whole.
That's where I disagree though - Armageddon may have started as a template, but it's not that any more - it's become a black hole of resources, manpower, and importance in the setting, and is critical for the greater Ork narrative.
Armageddon is mostly an example of "This iswas how you can tell a 40K story, now make up your own characters and tell one yourself."
I've corrected that to show my opinion of it - Armageddon, for some time, hasn't been "just" a normal Hive.
You can have your own "important" Hive World and it's no more or less important the Armageddon.
Agreed, although Armageddon CURRENTLY is very important to the setting's mythos and lore. In the same respect, you *could* have a more important world than Macragge or Baal, but you're running the risk of coming across a little OTT.
It was arguably the same with named characters in those days. Most of the time you could build characters that out shined the studio ones. You could make a Chaos Lord that made Abaddon look like a chump. The idea was, "Here's the tool set and some examples, now go do it yourself. We've created this universe expansive enough for all of your creations."
And that's not changed. Things like Slamguinius, Chainlords, and so on are usually superior to characters like Sicarius, Cassius, Vulkan, Kor'sarro, etc etc.
As I think we're both saying - who cares what GW do? They've always done their own characters and story events, but who cares?
Insectum7 wrote:...Not that it can't be still GrimDark
That's my point. You look at all the new stuff, and you don't think it's Grimdark. That's 100% okay. But I look at the new stuff, and it's still Grimdark to me. It's still the setting that I love. And that's just my opinion, but it's just as objectively valid as yours - in that neither are objective whatsoever.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tygre wrote: I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.
As I understood it, I thought that was only for certain Scholas, not all. But Gaunt certainly feels like he shouldn't have been that kind of Commissar.
Tygre wrote: I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.
Tygre wrote: I'd be happy to see the best friend executing bit gone from the Commissar background. Personally I don't think it fits in the likes of Commissar Gaunt or Commissar Cain. Brutality is one thing but this is just a waste of good resources. The person who implement this should be executed for wasting resources. Remember the Munitorum (which is over the Guard, Navy and Commissars etc) get angry if you put one millilitre more fuel in vehicle than your docket says.
I do get his point that Armageddon is certainly more important to the Orks narrative then the great rift. I see the great rift more as not taking away from anything (let's face it, none of the stories battles etc told in the past wouldn't work in the modern post cadia era) but the great rift adds some new, potentially intreasting areas to explore. When GW chooses to really explore it. not sure if, for example the PA focused on Blkood angels vs 'nids really touched on it, but I know the novel "the emperor's spears" was a fascinating story about a marine chapter cut off by the great rift, it was, truthfully quite intreasting
From a whole of 40k perspective however, Armageddon is unimportant.
Which was the whole thrust of this conversation in the first place -40k as a whole, as the galaxy, is now affected by the decisions of a few characters far more than at any time in the game's history.
Yarrick's victory at Hades hive is less than nothing by comparison
BrianDavion wrote:the great rift adds some new, potentially intreasting areas to explore. When GW chooses to really explore it. not sure if, for example the PA focused on Blkood angels vs 'nids really touched on it, but I know the novel "the emperor's spears" was a fascinating story about a marine chapter cut off by the great rift, it was, truthfully quite intreasting
Exactly this. The narrative potential and accessibility of the new stuff is really pretty good, and when I see what feels like kneejerk "it's nu-40k so it's bad" takes, I wish they'd look at the truth of what's been presented rather than the basic 1d4chan glance.
Hellebore wrote:From a whole of 40k perspective however, Armageddon is unimportant.
Maybe it once was. Now it's not. The Tau were once an significant empire, playable in the game to represent similar insignificant empires. Now, they have more worlds, the ability to travel beyond the Damocles Gulf via the Startide Nexus, and are carving out a sizeable realm. Things change, and have for a while.
Armageddon has been more than just an example of a "normal" Hive World for years now. It's importance has grown by sheer exposure, both in and out of universe.
Which was the whole thrust of this conversation in the first place -40k as a whole, as the galaxy, is now affected by the decisions of a few characters far more than at any time in the game's history.
Is it? That's my argument - by all means, if you're of the opinion that it is, don't let me take that from you, but it certainly isn't a factual comment - and I want to make it clear that GW having their characters do things has never, and will never, prevent you from doing your own thing.
Yarrick's victory at Hades hive is less than nothing by comparison
Yarrick's victory led to a whole other war for Armageddon, because he was so iconic to the greenskins, a war which advanced Ork technological understanding (Tellyportas), caused more Orks to flock to Thraka and grow stronger from the conflict, and draw even more Imperial forces into the meatgrinder of another lengthy war.
The battle alone? Insignificant on a galactic scale. The consequences of that battle? Even more important than something like Vigilus, I'd argue.
Armageddon also put Thraka on a crusade to unite the tribes/waaaghs across the galaxy in which he apparently has access to time travel and is able to manifest in different areas of space at the same time.
On the Abaddon Scale Thrakka is probably at the Gothic War step, i.e one strategic victory away from his ‘Cadia Falls’ moment.
In terms of the universe, Armageddon was one of many large wars. If lost, the ramifications could have ballooned outward to a devastating affect throughout a sector of space, but there were many of those in that millenium, and hardly alone in that front.
In terms of the game, it was rather impactful introducing the Kult of Speed, Steel Legion, Salamanders, and Black Templars as specific variants of known codices, which have had ramifications (both positive and negative) ever since.
Charistoph wrote: In terms of the universe, Armageddon was one of many large wars. If lost, the ramifications could have ballooned outward to a devastating affect throughout a sector of space, but there were many of those in that millenium, and hardly alone in that front.
One of many, but was still exceptional, in much the same way that Cadia or Terra are exceptional worlds.
So Terra isn't important, because it's just one Hive World?
Some worlds are more important than others.
You're still trying to sidestep the resposibility of making a case for why Armageddon is so important. You're still contending against the numbers I've given. Give specifics, not vague claims like "well terra is important, right?"
The reason Terra is important is easy to ascertain. Terra is the literal seat of the Emperor, plus the Astronomicon. Without their combined efforts providing a navigational beacon in the warp, the relative stability of human warp travel ceases and the Imperium falls apart.
So Smudge, out of the 32,000 hive worlds, why is Armageddon so important?
I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages and is still going. If someone thinks armageddon is as important as the great rift, who cares? It's make believe.
So Terra isn't important, because it's just one Hive World?
Some worlds are more important than others.
You're still trying to sidestep the resposibility of making a case for why Armageddon is so important. You're still contending against the numbers I've given. Give specifics, not vague claims like "well terra is important, right?"
The reason Terra is important is easy to ascertain. Terra is the literal seat of the Emperor, plus the Astronomicon. Without their combined efforts providing a navigational beacon in the warp, the relative stability of human warp travel ceases and the Imperium falls apart.
So Smudge, out of the 32,000 hive worlds, why is Armageddon so important?
Two of the most powerful Ork warlords in history popped up on it, the place was used as a template for creating planet sized Ork battle stations and it's reasonable to assume that there's a fair amount of Ork relics there that would make Orks jump in power.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages and is still going. If someone thinks armageddon is as important as the great rift, who cares? It's make believe.
Yeah definitely bored of this.
On that note: not exactly "lore" but a commonly held belief among many. The idea that all traitor Astartes are chaos tainted, mutated, and actively worship the chaos gods and consort with daemons. Hating the Imperium and wanting to bring about it's downfall requires none of those things. Yeah lots of heretics do. But not all.
Insectum7 wrote:You're still trying to sidestep the resposibility of making a case for why Armageddon is so important.
I've given my case - my case being that it holds great strategtic importance, and symbolic importance to the Ork race.
You're still contending against the numbers I've given.
The numbers you've given mean absolutely nothing.
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
Give specifics, not vague claims like "well terra is important, right?"
The reason Terra is important is easy to ascertain. Terra is the literal seat of the Emperor, plus the Astronomicon. Without their combined efforts providing a navigational beacon in the warp, the relative stability of human warp travel ceases and the Imperium falls apart.
And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
So Smudge, out of the 32,000 hive worlds, why is Armageddon so important?
Because of all the reasons I've given. Because we're talking about Armageddon, and not those 32000 Hive Worlds. That's why it's important, IMO.
You disagree? That's okay. But that's just your opinion, same as mine is.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:I cant believe this has gone on for 3 pages and is still going. If someone thinks armageddon is as important as the great rift, who cares? It's make believe.
Exactly. I don't care if Insectum here thinks the Armageddon means nothing, or whatever, but when they make claims like "it's an objective fact that this is more important", it's a bit sad, really.
It's a fictional universe. Who cares if someone else thinks X is more important then Y?
Charistoph wrote: In terms of the universe, Armageddon was one of many large wars. If lost, the ramifications could have ballooned outward to a devastating affect throughout a sector of space, but there were many of those in that millenium, and hardly alone in that front.
One of many, but was still exceptional, in much the same way that Cadia or Terra are exceptional worlds.
What makes Armageddon exceptional is the varied forces brought to bear on it. Macragge is probably even more important, over all, yet we do not have a campaign book for it because it is pretty much just "Nids vs Ultramarines (no matter what their armor colors were).
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
That is a truly irrational claim. That's the sort of reasoning that puts Earth in the center of the universe in ancient cosmological maps.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
This bring us to your next problem, which is the fact that Armageddon also comes under threat because of the Great Rift. Daemons are spilling out and warring over the surface of the planet. So even if Armageddon is so truly important, Armageddon is one of many thousands of worlds terrorized by the Cicatrix Maledictum.
Which means in addition to attempting to argue the equation 1 >= 3,200
You're also attempting to claim Armageddon >= Armageddon+Terra+Mordia+Macragge+Baal, plus dozens of other worlds named in the 8th Ed. rule book. Which is also plainly irrational.
As for "humano-centricism", the Great Rift has a greater impact on more factions than Armageddon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DalekCheese wrote: Please can we stop talking about Armageddon? P l e a s e
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
That is a truly irrational claim. That's the sort of reasoning that puts Earth in the center of the universe in ancient cosmological maps.
This is a fictional universe. Not a real, physical entity.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
This bring us to your next problem, which is the fact that Armageddon also comes under threat because of the Great Rift. Daemons are spilling out and warring over the surface of the planet. So even if Armageddon is so truly important, Armageddon is one of many thousands of worlds terrorized by the Cicatrix Maledictum.
Yes? How does that make Armageddon any less important than the Great Rift? Converging plot-arcs, no?
That's like saying "Macragge isn't important, because the Tyranids attacked it", or "Cadia isn't important, because Chaos Marines attacked it", or "Terra isn't important because it was attacked by Orks and Chaos".
Which means in addition to attempting to argue the equation 1 >= 3,200
You're also attempting to claim Armageddon >= Armageddon+Terra+Mordia+Macragge+Baal, plus dozens of other worlds named in the 8th Ed. rule book. Which is also plainly irrational.
The Great Rift is one thing. Armageddon is another. They can, and do, have wider effects on the galaxy around them, but it doesn't mean that suddenly the Great Rift is tied to all those other worlds. If that were so, then by that same logic, Terra would be the most important thing in the galaxy, and we know how you feel about things being "the most important thing in the galaxy".
As for "humano-centricism", the Great Rift has a greater impact on more factions than Armageddon.
But does that make it more important? I don't think so. The Orks care more about Armageddon than any big warp storm. The Dark Eldar care more about Commoragh than any material threat.
Sure, it's more involved in some factions than others. But, in my opinion, that doesn't make it "more important".
You disagree? That's okay. That's just your opinion though.
We're talking about a fictional universe here, and our interpretations of it. End of the day, it's all opinions.
DalekCheese wrote: Please can we stop talking about Armageddon? P l e a s e
We're just about there.
Yes, we are.
You think Armageddon isn't as important as the Great Rift.
I think it's just as important.
We're not going to persuade the other as to our opinion, so we'll just have to settle with disagreeing.
They gave the emperor some grounding and really puts the primarchs in context for what they are - weapons of war created to unify the galaxy, rather than children desperately in need of a father.
They also are what perpetuals should have been rather than Dan Abnett's daft idea that they are wolverine levels of immortal.
Actually, that's finally something that I'd actually want to see properly gone and made definitely non-canon. I just never really liked the whole Sensei stuff. There's a few things in 40k I'd change, but very little I'd wholesale get rid of - the Sensei is one of those things, for me.
I'm okay with the Emperor being non-grounded, myself.
You think Armageddon isn't as important as the Great Rift.
I think it's just as important.
Frankly, your reasoning is completely absurd. Like it really has not any connection with logic or reality at all. It would be like saying that Sergeant Telion and Guilliman are equally influential characters and have same impact to the setting. Like sure, one can say that, but it is obvious nonsense.
You think Armageddon isn't as important as the Great Rift.
I think it's just as important.
Frankly, your reasoning is completely absurd. Like it really has not any connection with logic or reality at all. It would be like saying that Sergeant Telion and Guilliman are equally influential characters and have same impact to the setting. Like sure, one can say that, but it is obvious nonsense.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, that's finally something that I'd actually want to see properly gone and made definitely non-canon. I just never really liked the whole Sensei stuff. There's a few things in 40k I'd change, but very little I'd wholesale get rid of - the Sensei is one of those things, for me.
I'm okay with the Emperor being non-grounded, myself.
It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
The emperor was an immortal powerful psychic who's only actual superiority was thousands of years of experience and multuple personalities to draw from. But he wasn't omnipotent, nor omniscient. He was a man given ultimate power trying to do the best he could with what he had.
IMO, the great crusade is the lowest point in his story. He spent 38,000 years behind the scenes trying to guide humanity away from chaos extinction. He got tired and despaired at the sysiphaen task and took direct action. By comparison the unification and great crusade were massive rush jobs, desperation moves by someone clearly tired of the task they'd set themselves. It was the equivalent of deploying nukes when you get sick of the back and forth diplomacy of the UN going in circles.
When people buy into the god emperor schtick they're devaluing him.
It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
Indeed. I am not a huge fan of the Sensei, but compared to the Perpetuals they're obviously a superior concept. They actually logically flow from the established elements and have a place in the various intrigues of the setting. Perpetuals are just bizarre endlessly regenerating immortals that some BL author apparently pulled out of their arse with no rhyme or reason.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
Hellebore wrote: It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
Eh, in a setting as wildly overpowered as 40k, I've never been bothered by the idea that some people could just be born perpetual or supremely psychic. I just never liked the Sensei.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
Oh, some fans thinking that the God-Emperor is a good or "right" character is definitely an issue! But I'm completely fine with him genuinely being that powerful, obviously bearing in mind that it doesn't make him good, or omni-anything.
Basically, between him being a combination of a bunch of shaman psychics, or one guy who happens to be more powerful than others, I prefer the latter. But, that's my opinion, and my "piece of lore I'd be happy to see gone".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, that's finally something that I'd actually want to see properly gone and made definitely non-canon. I just never really liked the whole Sensei stuff. There's a few things in 40k I'd change, but very little I'd wholesale get rid of - the Sensei is one of those things, for me.
I'm okay with the Emperor being non-grounded, myself.
It makes less sense that some humans are just born randomly with the ability to regrow their bodies from nothing, than it does the most powerful gestalt psychic being in humanity's history created some mutant kids when he had sex and those kids don't die of natural causes. From a literary perspective there's no competition - perpetuals are a poorly devised, highly consequential addition. the sensei fit the setting and actually don't make waves in the same way truly immortal beings would.
And the emperor has always been grounded, it's the OTT the hero god worship that has created the ungrounded version. But rather than understanding that as an in-universe piece of cultural propaganda, fans seem to have literally embraced it as actual truth, which is highly ironic.
The emperor was an immortal powerful psychic who's only actual superiority was thousands of years of experience and multuple personalities to draw from. But he wasn't omnipotent, nor omniscient. He was a man given ultimate power trying to do the best he could with what he had.
IMO, the great crusade is the lowest point in his story. He spent 38,000 years behind the scenes trying to guide humanity away from chaos extinction. He got tired and despaired at the sysiphaen task and took direct action. By comparison the unification and great crusade were massive rush jobs, desperation moves by someone clearly tired of the task they'd set themselves. It was the equivalent of deploying nukes when you get sick of the back and forth diplomacy of the UN going in circles.
When people buy into the god emperor schtick they're devaluing him.
The Sensei are actually written as descendants, not necessarily sons, of the Emperor. So it could be that whatever genetic quirk that creates them might skip some generations and only be expressed long after the Emperor has moved on from an area. Maybe Sensei are still being born down the ages, here and there, across the galaxy as those genes might have dispersed with humanity.
I agree that the whole coming out as Emperor and ruling overtly was a desperation move by a being that had failed to make much headway against the Chaos gods for much of history, and after the DAoT collapsed into ruin. Then...this desperation move seemed to work and work better than anything else the Emperor had been trying for 38,000 years. Nothing breeds over-confidence and complacency like success. That's my view of how the Emperor could have been so seemingly blind to the character flaws of the Primarchs. He was succeeding so quickly, he was in a hurry to move on to the next phase, which was why he retired back to Terra. He probably figured he could deal with those pesky Primarchs later, and one at a time, not imagining a massed revolt led by the Primarch he trusted the most.
this has been explained, multiple times, lemme explain it to you nice and simple in a big bold fault. Cawl was one of the scientists who developed space marines in the first p[lace, as such he has insider knowledge of the process. And Primaris Marine crafting was not an exact science. the end result is the best he could do. there where several ideas Cawl could not actually make work Cawl isn't just some dude. he was a personal student of the emperor's.
The issue is not in this, but in one dude being everywhere and doing everything. In addition, it ignores other attempts which "Emperor's scientists" attempted and ended in fiasco. Crawl is just a man and on his own he can't be responsible for single handedly reinventing half of Imperium's tech. Especially not in such complex and difficult fields where we have Fabius Bile trying that same stuff from more than 10 thousand years now. Make it look like huge undertaking rather than some marry sue just pulling out solutions out of his closet one day when he got bored.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
There isn't any depth in said lore. Furthermore you had missed the entire point. These people dumbing on Tau were actual fans of W40k. Ones who enjoyed Tau were more of outsiders. They liked Tau for all the wrong reasons, because those reasons had no place to be in W40k. In the end, Tau was retconned to fit W40k setting and who they are in most recent lore have only superficial similarities with who they were in their original lore.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Another piece of nonsensical lore which people hate. Such individuals/people/whatever had been mentioned multiple times in this thread as having no place in W40k setting.
I don't think you Understand, Gulliman is a living saint. he's a DIVINE individual. Bjorn the Fellhanded is held in awe because he walked the stars in the same time the emperor did (and as far as I know had never even been in the same room as the emperor) Gulliman is the emperor's SON, he's talked to him, walked with him. confided in him. I'd use real life parellels except, I'm not sure there are any. Gulliman is, in the eyes of the Imperium, divinity made flesh.
No, he most definitely is not a living saint. Please do not use these words so liberally as they refer to very specific warp entities. Otherwise I will have to perform exorcism on Guiliman to really cause damage to him. I do agree that everyone is in awe with him, but you miss nuance which you yourself critique me on. Guiliman had pissed a lot of forces in Imperium, even his own chapter. You miss all this nuance in favor of more marry sue nonsense. You miss nuance that W40k Imperium is nothing like W30k. You also miss differences between W40k and W30k story telling. W40k is all about grim darkness where average Joes are pitted against unimaginable horrors that universe can throw at them. It is about larger than life things where loss of entire star systems is just a drop in a bucket. Where massive structures once proudly erected now lies in constant decay, plagued with stagnation and endless powerplay. Where once mighty heroes are all gone and only incompetent bafoons and political backstabbers are left. W30k is about bright future, super soldiers and rebellion. W30k is primary played out around super soldiers and their drama, human element is superficial. Bringing Primarchs back and making gakloads of new superer super soldiers is merely being completely out of touch with their own setting.
Here is quick reference.
Old lore: Thunder Warriors: Inferior super soldiers. Space marines: Super soldiers. Custodes: Superior super soldiers. Grey knights: Supreme super soldiers.
New lore: Space Marines: Super soldiers. Primaris Marines: Superer super soldiers. Primaris Custodes: Superer Superior super soldiers. Primaris Grey Knights: Superer Supreme super soldiers.
Do you see what kind of nonsense GW had written themselves into? All they needed was to make skin and rule swaps and give some half hearted explanation in lore about new tech. Even if they wanted to introduce new super soldiers, we already have PERFECT solution to what primaris marines should be. It is called: Thunder Warriors. In fact, they were superior to Adeptus Astartes, but their genomes was unstable. They were prone to battle lust and their genesede will often cause them to die on their own in terrible ways. This made Thunder Warriors into extreme risk takers and very aggressive warriors. They were hard to control, but exceptionally potent in war, yet dangerous in peace times and being unable to undertake non-combat duties with any efficiency. They are PERFECT representations of what Primaris nonsense are supposed to be and GW could simply had stated that Imperium are just reintroducing Thunder Warriors again and everybody would get so excited. Yet, they fethed it up so badly that it pissed huge portion of fanbase and I have people like you saying that no, everything is perfectly fine. It is fans who are to blame and GW could not had done this any better. I really hate this kind of attitude where it is always a victim, customer who is wrong and one who is doing that stuff is blameless.
Basic facts about Thunder Warriors:
Wrought to be living weapons, the Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger, more savage and more potent in combat than the later Astartes, though they were not as long-lived...Thunder Warriors were large, greater in size than most Space Marines. In their earliest days the Thunder Warriors wore metal armor with leather strappings and wielded Lasrifles.Despite physical deterioration, the few Warriors that survived the end of the Unification Wars were easily more than a match for an Astartes, and had even outperformed Custodians during combat engagements... Even severely deteriorated Thunder Warriors shown capable of fighting multiple Astartes at once. The Thunder Warriors genetic template was unstable and they were prone to fits of bloodlust and instability. Short-lived and rife with both mental and physical health issues, Thunder Warriors were known to suddenly drop dead or stop following orders.
I also hate all this "talking to the Emperor" or "Emperor intervening" nonsense. Emperor had became a God like he always had wanted (Chaos propaganda). If he is still alive, he sits in endless agony in his throne half-dead. What "Emperor" is in modern lore is nothing that he was in W30k. I'm not sure if these two things are even a same person. In W40k, the Emperor is literal Chaos god which is about to gain consciousness. Due to collective belief, it is very likely this event will happen when old, fake Emperor will finally be released from his endless torture on his golden throne. This new Chaos Emperor has very little resemblance in his personality with original Emperor. Emperor's demons are known to inspire religious fanatism in their followers and engage all foes with absolute contempt. There is no negotiation, there is no deals. Like Chaos God Malal only seeks chaos, Chaos Emperor has only one solution to anything that isn't an Imperium. Bolter round to a head. No negotiation. No words exchanged. No parley tolerated. Nothing learned from their enemies.
Btw: You need to understand when it is appropriate to engage with someone in rational discussion and when it is not.
Iracundus wrote:I agree that the whole coming out as Emperor and ruling overtly was a desperation move by a being that had failed to make much headway against the Chaos gods for much of history, and after the DAoT collapsed into ruin. Then...this desperation move seemed to work and work better than anything else the Emperor had been trying for 38,000 years. Nothing breeds over-confidence and complacency like success. That's my view of how the Emperor could have been so seemingly blind to the character flaws of the Primarchs. He was succeeding so quickly, he was in a hurry to move on to the next phase, which was why he retired back to Terra. He probably figured he could deal with those pesky Primarchs later, and one at a time, not imagining a massed revolt led by the Primarch he trusted the most.
That's how I read it, yeah. He comes out of hiding as a "I *need* to get my hands dirty" kind of move, and then, when it succeeds, he keeps his hands on the project, and is essentially winging it the entire time. I believes he can trust his Primarchs, or at the very least, believes he would win if they ever did turn on him, but he's proven disastrously wrong by Magnus.
Ernestas-
Spoiler:
Ernestas wrote:The issue is not in this, but in one dude being everywhere and doing everything. In addition, it ignores other attempts which "Emperor's scientists" attempted and ended in fiasco.
Those cases weren't anywhere near the same as Cawl.
Things like the Cursed Founding, we have no evidence that someone on the same tier as Cawl worked on them. Cawl/Sedayne was LITERALLY working with the Emperor - not with, not for,
but actually knew him. That's the difference between Oppenheimer, and a random physician halfway across the world.
Crawl is just a man and on his own he can't be responsible for single handedly reinventing half of Imperium's tech.
The Primaris stuff isn't "half of the Imperium's tech" at all - that's blatant exaggeration.
Considering that it all generally looks and functions the same as older stuff, it stands to reason that this tech isn't wholesale new. Plus, while we have cases of certain things being named after Cawl (the Cawl MkII bolt rifle), you don't suspect that, much like with the Astartes, they were made by Cawl's team of scientists, not all by Cawl himself?
Especially not in such complex and difficult fields where we have Fabius Bile trying that same stuff from more than 10 thousand years now. Make it look like huge undertaking rather than some marry sue just pulling out solutions out of his closet one day when he got bored.
Fabius, for all his gifts, is just an extremely talented/deranged Apothecary, and much of his knowledge now comes from xenos factions. He's not interested in retreading the Emperor's steps - he wants to make his own wholly unique creation.
Compare this to Cawl, someone who's already gone through the stages of initially creating the Astartes and was responsible for one of the most important modifications (the Black Carapace), and has the resources of the entire Imperium, as well as his own first hand knowledge and experience, taking just as log to make a slightly better Space Marine.
You're still viewing Cawl as "this random new guy", because that's what he is OOC to us. But within the actual 40k canon, he's not that at all.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
There isn't any depth in said lore. Furthermore you had missed the entire point. These people dumbing on Tau were actual fans of W40k. Ones who enjoyed Tau were more of outsiders. They liked Tau for all the wrong reasons, because those reasons had no place to be in W40k. In the end, Tau was retconned to fit W40k setting and who they are in most recent lore have only superficial similarities with who they were in their original lore.
Sounds a lot like gatekeeping there, this whole talk of "actual fans doing X". If you'll forgive me, it doesn't sound too far off rhetoric saying "if you like Primaris, you're not a TRUE FAN of 40k" - which is obviously absurd gatekeeping talk.
And I disagree that Tau aren't anything like their original stuff. It's still all there - the faction has only evolved slightly, and that's perfect, because that's what the Tau were all about - we could see how a ""good"" faction would have to change in order to cope with the grimdarkness around them.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Another piece of nonsensical lore which people hate.
Some people? All people? "True fans"?
Such individuals/people/whatever had been mentioned multiple times in this thread as having no place in W40k setting.
Well, sorry to say it, but hasn't the Emperor being a gestalt personality been thrown around in 40k lore a lot? Now, I don't actually like it too much, but I'm not going to argue that it's non-canon or that it "has no place in the setting".
Not to mention that I'm fairly sure that Cawl being made up of many personalities isn't exactly uncommon within the Admech, who literally have memory/personality cores and stuff. The thing that makes Cawl unique is the sheer amount he has, and that many of those personalities/memories are of some very important people.
No, he most definitely is not a living saint. Please do not use these words so liberally as they refer to very specific warp entities.
Well, there's your problem - Living Saints aren't always Warp entities.
Saint Basillius, while he was alive, was declared a Living Saint (and then was revealed to be a heretic) - nothing to do with the Warp. Celestine, another Living Saint, isn't a Warp entity, or at the very least, wasn't born as one. The original founders of the Sisters of Battle, Alicia Dominica and her sisters-at-arms, were all declared Living Saints, and none of them were warp entities.
In fact, seeing as Guilliman possesses literal Warp energy within him (as all Primarchs do) as part of his genealogy, he's closer to the Warp than most Living Saints!
Guiliman had pissed a lot of forces in Imperium, even his own chapter.
Source on doing that to his own Chapter? And sure, maybe he did. But he's still a Primarch - a soldier can be annoyed by their superior officers, but they're still their superior officer. Unless you're willing to stand against him in arms, and out yourself as a traitor and heretic, and hopefully win the war afterwards to write your own history of the event, you're not going to do anything directly about it.
You miss all this nuance in favor of more marry sue nonsense.
Funnily enough, that's actually closer to what you're doing. You're missing out all the nuance of Guilliman returning, and instead all focusing on "b-b-b-but he's too strong this shouldn't be allowed m-m-m-mary sue!"
You're being so wrapped up in "he's a Primarch and no-one's gone to war with him!" that you're missing out on how Guilliman is self-defeating himself by supporting the Ecclesiarchy, how he's trying to convince the Admech that he won't put Cawl in power, dealing with the revelation that his own creator and father sees him only as a tool, and all while trying to hold his father's Imperium together in the worst state it's been in since the Dark Age.
Bringing Primarchs back and making gakloads of new superer super soldiers is merely being completely out of touch with their own setting.
Speaking of being out of touch with their setting, it'd help if you read some of the new fluff. You know, the fluff that is completely different to what you're describing.
Here is quick reference.
Old lore:
Thunder Warriors: Inferior super soldiers.
Space marines: Super soldiers.
Custodes: Superior super soldiers.
Grey knights: Supreme super soldiers.
New lore:
Space Marines: Super soldiers.
Primaris Marines: Superer super soldiers.
Primaris Custodes: Superer Superior super soldiers.
Primaris Grey Knights: Superer Supreme super soldiers.
Considering that Primaris Custodes and Primaris Grey Knights don't exist, your idea of "new lore" is complete headcanon - as we've been telling you. Not to mention that your deliberate use of infantilising language ("superer") is made as an attempt to devalue the Primaris for being better than Space Marines - but you don't use that term with the Custodes or Grey Knights, who you instead use more rational adjectives.
If you were truly being honest, you'd be calling Custodes "supererer super soldiers", not "superior super soldiers".
Thunder Warriors are still canon. Nothing changed there. In fact, they actually got quite a bit more fleshed out in Valdor's recent novel - in a pretty interesting way too.
Yet, they fethed it up so badly that it pissed huge portion of fanbase and I have people like you saying that no, everything is perfectly fine. It is fans who are to blame and GW could not had done this any better.
Aaaaaand there we are - the whole "you're a fake fan"/" you're not a TRUE 40k fan" gatekeeping garbage.
You don't like the new stuff - that's okay. You're entitled to that opinion. But as for the others who actually like it, they're just as entitled to their opinion as you are, and have just as much a stake in the setting as you.
I also hate all this "talking to the Emperor" or "Emperor intervening" nonsense. Emperor had became a God like he always had wanted (Chaos propaganda). If he is still alive, he sits in endless agony in his throne half-dead. What "Emperor" is in modern lore is nothing that he was in W30k. I'm not sure if these two things are even a same person. In W40k, the Emperor is literal Chaos god which is about to gain consciousness. Due to collective belief, it is very likely this event will happen when old, fake Emperor will finally be released from his endless torture on his golden throne. This new Chaos Emperor has very little resemblance in his personality with original Emperor. Emperor's demons are known to inspire religious fanatism in their followers and engage all foes with absolute contempt. There is no negotiation, there is no deals. Like Chaos God Malal only seeks chaos, Chaos Emperor has only one solution to anything that isn't an Imperium. Bolter round to a head. No negotiation. No words exchanged. No parley tolerated. Nothing learned from their enemies.
That's a fine interpretation of the setting, and if that's how you view 40k, you're welcome to it.
But there's been plenty of cases and evidence that the Imperium isn't quite so black and white, and hasn't been for decades, and for those people, their interpretations are equally as valid.
There's no "one true 40k canon" or "one true interpretation", and so your insinuation that people who like Tau, or Primaris, or think Guilliman has been well written are all fake fans needs to go the way of the dodo. It's all opinion, at the end of the day. We're not talking about actual reality, with empirical evidence and easily provable ummutable laws of reality: we're talking about a fictional setting, with many self-admitted interpretations and perspective to view it - which, arguably, I'd say is 40k's biggest strength as a setting.
Btw: You need to understand when it is appropriate to engage with someone in rational discussion and when it is not.
Yes, I think you do. Actually reading the new material would be a start.
TL;DR - Stop gatekeeping. There's more than just your interpretation and opinions here, and we're all entitled to enjoy and view the setting how we please, without being implied as "fake fans" for it.
Who cares if 32000 worlds are like Armageddon (although I disagree with that notion, seeing as you're basing that off of the idea that Armageddon is like a normal Hive World) - we hear about Armageddon, not those 32000 worlds.
That is a truly irrational claim. That's the sort of reasoning that puts Earth in the center of the universe in ancient cosmological maps.
This is a fictional universe. Not a real, physical entity.
Irrelevant. Your reasoning is equally erroneous.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
You're being humano-centric.
This bring us to your next problem, which is the fact that Armageddon also comes under threat because of the Great Rift. Daemons are spilling out and warring over the surface of the planet. So even if Armageddon is so truly important, Armageddon is one of many thousands of worlds terrorized by the Cicatrix Maledictum.
Yes? How does that make Armageddon any less important than the Great Rift? Converging plot-arcs, no?
That's like saying "Macragge isn't important, because the Tyranids attacked it", or "Cadia isn't important, because Chaos Marines attacked it", or "Terra isn't important because it was attacked by Orks and Chaos".
Unsurprisingly at this point, your argument makes no sense.
Which means in addition to attempting to argue the equation 1 >= 3,200
You're also attempting to claim Armageddon >= Armageddon+Terra+Mordia+Macragge+Baal, plus dozens of other worlds named in the 8th Ed. rule book. Which is also plainly irrational.
The Great Rift is one thing. Armageddon is another. They can, and do, have wider effects on the galaxy around them, but it doesn't mean that suddenly the Great Rift is tied to all those other worlds. If that were so, then by that same logic, Terra would be the most important thing in the galaxy, and we know how you feel about things being "the most important thing in the galaxy".
The Great Rift had a direct impact on all of those worlds. Read your rule book.
Terra might arguably be the most important world in the galaxy, considering that it's necessary for the most dominant unified faction to function. There is a canonical reason for Terra to be of exceptional importance.
We're talking about a fictional universe here, and our interpretations of it. End of the day, it's all opinions.
If you held the "opinion" that Space Marines are all drawn from female occupants. Your "opinion" would be wrong. Canon is a thing.
Iracundus wrote:I agree that the whole coming out as Emperor and ruling overtly was a desperation move by a being that had failed to make much headway against the Chaos gods for much of history, and after the DAoT collapsed into ruin. Then...this desperation move seemed to work and work better than anything else the Emperor had been trying for 38,000 years. Nothing breeds over-confidence and complacency like success. That's my view of how the Emperor could have been so seemingly blind to the character flaws of the Primarchs. He was succeeding so quickly, he was in a hurry to move on to the next phase, which was why he retired back to Terra. He probably figured he could deal with those pesky Primarchs later, and one at a time, not imagining a massed revolt led by the Primarch he trusted the most.
That's how I read it, yeah. He comes out of hiding as a "I *need* to get my hands dirty" kind of move, and then, when it succeeds, he keeps his hands on the project, and is essentially winging it the entire time. I believes he can trust his Primarchs, or at the very least, believes he would win if they ever did turn on him, but he's proven disastrously wrong by Magnus.
Ernestas-
Spoiler:
Ernestas wrote:The issue is not in this, but in one dude being everywhere and doing everything. In addition, it ignores other attempts which "Emperor's scientists" attempted and ended in fiasco.
Those cases weren't anywhere near the same as Cawl.
Things like the Cursed Founding, we have no evidence that someone on the same tier as Cawl worked on them. Cawl/Sedayne was LITERALLY working with the Emperor - not with, not for,
but actually knew him. That's the difference between Oppenheimer, and a random physician halfway across the world.
Crawl is just a man and on his own he can't be responsible for single handedly reinventing half of Imperium's tech.
The Primaris stuff isn't "half of the Imperium's tech" at all - that's blatant exaggeration.
Considering that it all generally looks and functions the same as older stuff, it stands to reason that this tech isn't wholesale new. Plus, while we have cases of certain things being named after Cawl (the Cawl MkII bolt rifle), you don't suspect that, much like with the Astartes, they were made by Cawl's team of scientists, not all by Cawl himself?
Especially not in such complex and difficult fields where we have Fabius Bile trying that same stuff from more than 10 thousand years now. Make it look like huge undertaking rather than some marry sue just pulling out solutions out of his closet one day when he got bored.
Fabius, for all his gifts, is just an extremely talented/deranged Apothecary, and much of his knowledge now comes from xenos factions. He's not interested in retreading the Emperor's steps - he wants to make his own wholly unique creation.
Compare this to Cawl, someone who's already gone through the stages of initially creating the Astartes and was responsible for one of the most important modifications (the Black Carapace), and has the resources of the entire Imperium, as well as his own first hand knowledge and experience, taking just as log to make a slightly better Space Marine.
You're still viewing Cawl as "this random new guy", because that's what he is OOC to us. But within the actual 40k canon, he's not that at all.
yet Tau ARE a popular faction. and the same people dumping on Tau are the ones dumping on Primaris Marines. People whom haven't looked beyond the inital impression at the depths of said lore, and hold opinions based of out ignorance of the actual facts. (Not everyone who dislikes Tau is like that BTW, I dislike em because the aestetic doesn't appeal to me. but I understand 40k is supposed to have a wide varity of differing aestetics)
There isn't any depth in said lore. Furthermore you had missed the entire point. These people dumbing on Tau were actual fans of W40k. Ones who enjoyed Tau were more of outsiders. They liked Tau for all the wrong reasons, because those reasons had no place to be in W40k. In the end, Tau was retconned to fit W40k setting and who they are in most recent lore have only superficial similarities with who they were in their original lore.
Sounds a lot like gatekeeping there, this whole talk of "actual fans doing X". If you'll forgive me, it doesn't sound too far off rhetoric saying "if you like Primaris, you're not a TRUE FAN of 40k" - which is obviously absurd gatekeeping talk.
And I disagree that Tau aren't anything like their original stuff. It's still all there - the faction has only evolved slightly, and that's perfect, because that's what the Tau were all about - we could see how a ""good"" faction would have to change in order to cope with the grimdarkness around them.
no a Mary sue would be universally loved, Cawl isn't. Cawl is simply a very old... I was going to say being, but thats the thing, Cawl isn't really one person anymore, he's more a gestalt. I imagine he runs around basicly absorbing peoples knowledge into himself over history.
Another piece of nonsensical lore which people hate.
Some people? All people? "True fans"?
Such individuals/people/whatever had been mentioned multiple times in this thread as having no place in W40k setting.
Well, sorry to say it, but hasn't the Emperor being a gestalt personality been thrown around in 40k lore a lot? Now, I don't actually like it too much, but I'm not going to argue that it's non-canon or that it "has no place in the setting".
Not to mention that I'm fairly sure that Cawl being made up of many personalities isn't exactly uncommon within the Admech, who literally have memory/personality cores and stuff. The thing that makes Cawl unique is the sheer amount he has, and that many of those personalities/memories are of some very important people.
No, he most definitely is not a living saint. Please do not use these words so liberally as they refer to very specific warp entities.
Well, there's your problem - Living Saints aren't always Warp entities.
Saint Basillius, while he was alive, was declared a Living Saint (and then was revealed to be a heretic) - nothing to do with the Warp. Celestine, another Living Saint, isn't a Warp entity, or at the very least, wasn't born as one. The original founders of the Sisters of Battle, Alicia Dominica and her sisters-at-arms, were all declared Living Saints, and none of them were warp entities.
In fact, seeing as Guilliman possesses literal Warp energy within him (as all Primarchs do) as part of his genealogy, he's closer to the Warp than most Living Saints!
Guiliman had pissed a lot of forces in Imperium, even his own chapter.
Source on doing that to his own Chapter? And sure, maybe he did. But he's still a Primarch - a soldier can be annoyed by their superior officers, but they're still their superior officer. Unless you're willing to stand against him in arms, and out yourself as a traitor and heretic, and hopefully win the war afterwards to write your own history of the event, you're not going to do anything directly about it.
You miss all this nuance in favor of more marry sue nonsense.
Funnily enough, that's actually closer to what you're doing. You're missing out all the nuance of Guilliman returning, and instead all focusing on "b-b-b-but he's too strong this shouldn't be allowed m-m-m-mary sue!"
You're being so wrapped up in "he's a Primarch and no-one's gone to war with him!" that you're missing out on how Guilliman is self-defeating himself by supporting the Ecclesiarchy, how he's trying to convince the Admech that he won't put Cawl in power, dealing with the revelation that his own creator and father sees him only as a tool, and all while trying to hold his father's Imperium together in the worst state it's been in since the Dark Age.
Bringing Primarchs back and making gakloads of new superer super soldiers is merely being completely out of touch with their own setting.
Speaking of being out of touch with their setting, it'd help if you read some of the new fluff. You know, the fluff that is completely different to what you're describing.
Here is quick reference.
Old lore:
Thunder Warriors: Inferior super soldiers.
Space marines: Super soldiers.
Custodes: Superior super soldiers.
Grey knights: Supreme super soldiers.
New lore:
Space Marines: Super soldiers.
Primaris Marines: Superer super soldiers.
Primaris Custodes: Superer Superior super soldiers.
Primaris Grey Knights: Superer Supreme super soldiers.
Considering that Primaris Custodes and Primaris Grey Knights don't exist, your idea of "new lore" is complete headcanon - as we've been telling you. Not to mention that your deliberate use of infantilising language ("superer") is made as an attempt to devalue the Primaris for being better than Space Marines - but you don't use that term with the Custodes or Grey Knights, who you instead use more rational adjectives.
If you were truly being honest, you'd be calling Custodes "supererer super soldiers", not "superior super soldiers".
Thunder Warriors are still canon. Nothing changed there. In fact, they actually got quite a bit more fleshed out in Valdor's recent novel - in a pretty interesting way too.
Yet, they fethed it up so badly that it pissed huge portion of fanbase and I have people like you saying that no, everything is perfectly fine. It is fans who are to blame and GW could not had done this any better.
Aaaaaand there we are - the whole "you're a fake fan"/" you're not a TRUE 40k fan" gatekeeping garbage.
You don't like the new stuff - that's okay. You're entitled to that opinion. But as for the others who actually like it, they're just as entitled to their opinion as you are, and have just as much a stake in the setting as you.
I also hate all this "talking to the Emperor" or "Emperor intervening" nonsense. Emperor had became a God like he always had wanted (Chaos propaganda). If he is still alive, he sits in endless agony in his throne half-dead. What "Emperor" is in modern lore is nothing that he was in W30k. I'm not sure if these two things are even a same person. In W40k, the Emperor is literal Chaos god which is about to gain consciousness. Due to collective belief, it is very likely this event will happen when old, fake Emperor will finally be released from his endless torture on his golden throne. This new Chaos Emperor has very little resemblance in his personality with original Emperor. Emperor's demons are known to inspire religious fanatism in their followers and engage all foes with absolute contempt. There is no negotiation, there is no deals. Like Chaos God Malal only seeks chaos, Chaos Emperor has only one solution to anything that isn't an Imperium. Bolter round to a head. No negotiation. No words exchanged. No parley tolerated. Nothing learned from their enemies.
That's a fine interpretation of the setting, and if that's how you view 40k, you're welcome to it.
But there's been plenty of cases and evidence that the Imperium isn't quite so black and white, and hasn't been for decades, and for those people, their interpretations are equally as valid.
There's no "one true 40k canon" or "one true interpretation", and so your insinuation that people who like Tau, or Primaris, or think Guilliman has been well written are all fake fans needs to go the way of the dodo. It's all opinion, at the end of the day. We're not talking about actual reality, with empirical evidence and easily provable ummutable laws of reality: we're talking about a fictional setting, with many self-admitted interpretations and perspective to view it - which, arguably, I'd say is 40k's biggest strength as a setting.
Btw: You need to understand when it is appropriate to engage with someone in rational discussion and when it is not.
Yes, I think you do. Actually reading the new material would be a start.
TL;DR - Stop gatekeeping. There's more than just your interpretation and opinions here, and we're all entitled to enjoy and view the setting how we please, without being implied as "fake fans" for it.
I’m siding with Smudge on this one, but please don’t use that as an excuse to restart this whole argument- please!
