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Space marines.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Space marines.

Like... all of them?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, the only thing that's really similar between them is that they are "hive minds".

Because as we all know, there can only be ever one hive mind in existence, and they can't be competing systems that have their own ways of doing things.

Im not even sure if they Crons be said to have a hive mind. Maybe progromatic control but not networked afaik... ?

Well, logically they would have to be networked in order for a single lord / C'tan to control them all.
Its why I really hate how Necrons can apparently speak to each other now by opening their mouths (seriously, that's in the 8th ed codex), because it takes away that silent, mechanical legion aspect and just turns them into metal emos.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, the only thing that's really similar between them is that they are "hive minds".

Because as we all know, there can only be ever one hive mind in existence, and they can't be competing systems that have their own ways of doing things.

Im not even sure if they Crons be said to have a hive mind. Maybe progromatic control but not networked afaik... ?

Well, logically they would have to be networked in order for a single lord / C'tan to control them all.
Its why I really hate how Necrons can apparently speak to each other now by opening their mouths (seriously, that's in the 8th ed codex), because it takes away that silent, mechanical legion aspect and just turns them into metal emos.

Ahh, yes. Yeah I was thinking networked but not single-mind networked. Bad choice of words.

DalekCheese wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Space marines.

Like... all of them?

Yes. Technically.

Perpetuals.

The Cabal and the weird maybe heretics/maybe not thing the Alpha Legion has going on. Just keep them as tactical Chaos Marines.

The Interex-connected idea that you can easily neutralize Chaos forever by the power of education. And generally the Interex as a whole, who felt too much like "everything could go right and be sunshine and lollipops but we're not doing it that way because grimdark".

Make Chaos abstract and incomprehensible again. No running around in Nurgle's literal garden and Slaanesh's literal whorehouse and so on.

Perpetuals are a really lame concept I think. Not a fan at all, ruin every novel they are in.

And definitely agree on all the "locations" in the warp, and having the chaos gods behave like comprehensible beings.

 Esmer wrote:
Slaanesh's literal whorehouse.

Think I've been there, isnt it in Texas?

If there isn't one, someone needs to open one, with that exact name.

Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm not that deep into the lore, but from what I read so far I would like it if the sometimes mentioned metaphor of "Astra Militarum = Anvil, Space Marines = Hammer" would also reflect more in the lore.
So in other words instead of:
"100 Imperial Guard Regiments attacking the rebelling Heretics on the Moon XY were slaughtered by the enemy, than some 100 Space Marines flew in and killed every enemy. Hurray Space Marines!"
more something like "The irresistible Astra Militarum attack on the Moon XY was slowed down by a cunningly installed minefield in orbit hindering the mass deployment and turning the battlefield in a bloody stalemate, as the Guard could only reinforce their trenches with 1000 men per day. The tide was turned by 100 Space Marines infiltrating the enemy command center and remotely detonating the minefield. The subsequent planetfall of 100 Imperial Guard regiments within 10 hours ruthlessly crushed any enemy resistence."

=> Space Marines can still save the day and be the deciding factor in large battles, but in the end, the WAR is won by throwing some billion Guardsmen on the problem.

But that may be personal preference.

My head cannon is pretty much the same. SM hit strategically valuable or high threat targets to aid friendly forces. But they can’t single handily conquer a planet with a hundred dudes. That’s unrealistic (yes I said the R word....)

 Sim-Life wrote:

DalekCheese wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Space marines.

Like... all of them?

Yes. Technically.

All Primaris, or Tacmarines, or both?

You want all Space Marines never to have happened?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nerak wrote:
Primaris, perpetuals, newcrons... kind of like Guilliman comming back. Prefarably no other loyal primarchs though. I’d also say that chaos=evil is a bad way to do thing. All deamons falling under the big 4 is absurd. Also I really dislike knights as a concept. Please explain to me why every space marine chapter doesn’t have like 20 knight suits available, or just stick a dreadnought sarcophagus in a knight.

My biggest issue is that 40k has felt smaller for every ed since... 4th maybe? More focused on specific heroes and not the incomprehensible mass of characters affected by what goes on. Actually on that note I dislike that characters don’t feel replaceable anymore. Death should have meaning in 40k. It seems to be way to easy to have super hero bullgak reasons for not dying in the perpetual war that is 40k.

Because Knights are ancient and therefore, on a galactic scale, massively rare. The Mechanicus can build new ones, but only slowly and more often than not by salvaging old parts. Even then, provided you can build however many Knights for each SM Chapter, you still have the same problem as the Mechanicum- the Throne Mechanicus. This is some seriously DAoT gak. It cannot be recreated, and the Imperium’s not going to take them from the Noble Houses by force in case the Knights rebel/destroy the suits. Both possible, and both leave you with no Knights.

DalekCheese wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Space marines.

Like... all of them?

I'd go for that, too. They have pretty dumb fluff. Anything to get rid of space wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

usmcmidn wrote:

Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm not that deep into the lore, but from what I read so far I would like it if the sometimes mentioned metaphor of "Astra Militarum = Anvil, Space Marines = Hammer" would also reflect more in the lore.
So in other words instead of:
"100 Imperial Guard Regiments attacking the rebelling Heretics on the Moon XY were slaughtered by the enemy, than some 100 Space Marines flew in and killed every enemy. Hurray Space Marines!"
more something like "The irresistible Astra Militarum attack on the Moon XY was slowed down by a cunningly installed minefield in orbit hindering the mass deployment and turning the battlefield in a bloody stalemate, as the Guard could only reinforce their trenches with 1000 men per day. The tide was turned by 100 Space Marines infiltrating the enemy command center and remotely detonating the minefield. The subsequent planetfall of 100 Imperial Guard regiments within 10 hours ruthlessly crushed any enemy resistence."

=> Space Marines can still save the day and be the deciding factor in large battles, but in the end, the WAR is won by throwing some billion Guardsmen on the problem.

But that may be personal preference.

My head cannon is pretty much the same. SM hit strategically valuable or high threat targets to aid friendly forces. But they can’t single handily conquer a planet with a hundred dudes. That’s unrealistic (yes I said the R word....)

Opponents would adapt and systematically set traps for the spess mahreens. There arent enough marines to sustain any kind of losses.

Space wolves - remove them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Space marines.

I think you might be playing the wrong game man. LOL.

Return Space Wolves to how they used to be, tone down the WE IS DA VIKINGS AND ALSO FURRIES IN SPAAAACE thing,

Unpopular opinion - Eldar birthing Slaanesh.

As someone who started in WHFB- an existing chaos god being birthed by the decadence of space elves was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

The Grey Knights murdering all those Guardsmen and Sisters

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Unpopular opinion - Eldar birthing Slaanesh.

As someone who started in WHFB- an existing chaos god being birthed by the decadence of space elves was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I understand your perspective, doing that though would require a substantial rewrite of the Eldar. All Eldar factions today are built around this event, so to remove it as part of their history removes the cause of their galactic Empire collapse and the specific cultural formations that exist now.

Conversely it would have very little effect on chaos. How slannesh came into being doesn't really affect how slannesh works.

Hellebore wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Unpopular opinion - Eldar birthing Slaanesh.

As someone who started in WHFB- an existing chaos god being birthed by the decadence of space elves was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I understand your perspective, doing that though would require a substantial rewrite of the Eldar. All Eldar factions today are built around this event, so to remove it as part of their history removes the cause of their galactic Empire collapse and the specific cultural formations that exist now.

Conversely it would have very little effect on chaos. How slannesh came into being doesn't really affect how slannesh works.

I dunno.. I have thought about this quite a few times, and I think it would be quite easy to retcon imo.

I would much rather the explanation for the fall be down to the culmination of war in heaven where the old ones with the help of eldar & co. defeated the necrons.
So I would like a post galactic sized mutual assured destruction scenario where the necrons "vanished" I.e. went to sleep and the eldar basiclay never managed to rebuild as all of their key home worlds were lost so they now to them, they exist in an essentially galactic mad max. All of their tech seems like space magic to the IOM but to the Eldar its akin to using using decades old WW2 rifles.. Functional but nowhere near the tech we have now.

So the craftworlds have essentially been like seeds but due to the constant fighting and slow growth it just not enough to re-establish the empire simply due to attrition with orks, humans and nids..

DE can just be murderous pirates who like to murder bang I guess

There would be a lot of knock on effects.

If they never recovered after the war in heaven, then either they've fallen for 60 million years and somehow stayed madmax, or the war in heaven is now only 10s of thousands of years old instead of millions. Which affects all sorts of galactic interactions.

If they didnt create slannesh then their gods weren't eaten so they still exist. The path system would never have existed, phoenix lords wouldn't exist and dark Eldar would be fundamentally different- Thier need to soul drain people which is the cornerstone of their society would be completely gone.

Harlequins wouldn't exist because cegorach never needed to flee to the webway, exodites only existed as a protest against the decadent extremism of the Eldar.

Wraithguard wouldn't exist because they wouldn't be trapping Eldar souls in realspace to avoid slannesh. Eldar would be reincarnating, and still be the ubermensch that that created.

The Eldar population would not be dying because 90% of them weren't consumed, leaving them everywhere throughout the galaxy.


Making them an uninhibited reincarnating psychic race in the trillions spread throughout the galaxy, with no inhibitions or discipline around the use of forbidden world ending technology, no PTSD around their actions and no inward looking psychology.

They would be more conquest thirsty, reckless and violent while also flinging around untempered psychic powers without fear of being consumed by slannesh.

There's a reason they dominated the galaxy for millions of years and the only way they fell was through their own hubris.

1. Their gods can still exists. why not. Not lie it really matters

2. The soul stone technology could be more to achieve immortality/preserve experiance rather than a necessity.

3. Harlequins could still be traveling murder clowns. Cegorah is still alive and kicking even now

4. Exodites can still ecists, they are just more mad maxed then other eldar

5. Again wraithguard can be contructs or simply soul stone tech application.

6. if 95% ded in the assured mutual destruction event it still 95% of them dead. Don't matter if they are eaten by slanseh or just dead cos dead..

7. Do thye have to be so uninhibited? If the IOM can start inventing new tech and work with xenos I don't see why the eldar could just be less gifted/self absorbed.

But yeah the path system would be hard to retcon. Maybe some sort of hierarchical structure/ kryptonian pre-determinism to ensure society ticks over and theres enough warriors, engeneers? I dunno im just making stuff up as I go and certainly there are many areas that wouldn't gel.

Yea realistically there's probably too much overall retcon and there's far too much legacy fluff to back track on. But I think it could certainly be done.

That would be a HUGE change in not just the Lore but in the Eldar aesthetic. They'd pretty much just be pointy-eared, skinny Orkz.

And for that matter, a large reason the Orkz didn't just conquer everything after the War is because the Eldar held them in check. Under this new Lore, that'd be nigh on impossible.

Yeah its silly

There is absolutely no way GW would ever retcon the birth of Slaanesh in 40k. Way too much woven in there from lore, aesthetics, weapons, the full thing. One can hope however.

I would love to see a little more of the lore between necrons, orks, and eldar however. Everything seems to always be centered around those other power armored losers.

Soul stones were created on crone worlds due to slannesh's birth and can only be sourced there.

My argument wasn't that it's impossible just that it would fundamentally change the Eldar and have big knock on effects in the galaxy dependent on exactly what type of redesign you do to them.

That it's not as simple as just saying 'the Eldar didn't create slannesh'.

Guilliman - He's boring, and should have stayed in the murky past. I think it took away from the endless despair of the 40k setting that suddenly a primarch could just waltz back into the setting. I'm happy for daemon primarchs to be a thing, but I wish that the loyalist ones would all just stay history and myth. I'm also generally not a fan of the Horus Heresy being expanded upon. Like, maybe it was my own head cannon, but did like, none of the imperial fists look at their pauldrons and go "Was this like, a deliberate thing, or...?" when they noticed their emblem - a black fist - matched the shrivelled, mummified hand left behind by Dorn?

Primaris Marines. Their fluff sucks, their design sucks, their posing sucks, their poaching of other characters sucks, their "space marines need to be TALLER!!!!" sizing sucks, their vehicles suck, the way they interact with the rest of the space marine line sucks, they way they're marketed sucks, and it super sucks that GW are trying to re-sell people an army they already have and it's actually working.

Space Wolves. Roman-empire space Catholic crusading Knights who are also megafascists is a silly enough aesthetic that it feels cluttered enough to just about work, within the heavy-metal hyperstimulating cannon of warhammer artwork. Adding in barbarian werewolves with ice weapons and viking stuff who are also goodie-goodies who save civilians but have a dark past is too cluttered.

GSC ridgerunner. IDK why GW thought a faction that is explicitly tied to mining and industry needed a racecar, but I always found it really off-brand and odd. It'd be like deep-sea diving space marines. It feels gimmicky and forced and out of character. Where in a manufactorum are high-speed, low-passenger vehicles ever going to be needed?

 posermcbogus wrote:

Primaris Marines. Their fluff sucks, their design sucks, their posing sucks, their poaching of other characters sucks, their "space marines need to be TALLER!!!!" sizing sucks, their vehicles suck, the way they interact with the rest of the space marine line sucks, they way they're marketed sucks, and it super sucks that GW are trying to re-sell people an army they already have and it's actually working.

Lol and +1.

It's a good thing that they've not thrown the setting out of the window then, isn't it.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they've "ruined the setting".

Yes they did thrown an entire setting out of a window and started anew. Ever heard of Age of Sigmar?

And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?

Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?

Yes, you can. It's what you do with a race that is happy and peaceful that the point lies. Look at the Interex in 30k. They're pretty chill guys, and seem to genuinely want to help humanity. They get slaughtered. The Taus being nice works, because you then see how their worldview breaks down in the wider galaxy.

No, you can't. This is why there was so much hate for Tau and why they were retconed in the end. Any good faction looks out of place in Warhammer setting and is generally disliked by everyone. Good factions which you mentioned generally get destroyed before such radical and dangerous ideas as "democracy", "human rights" and "progress" can ever take hold.

The work that Cawl did himself, you mean? After all, he is essentially the creator of the Black Carapace. Ooh, and that's without mentioning that the Emperor never actually made the Adeptus Astartes - that was led by a scientist called Amar Astarte!

This is my point about making complaints without even reading the lore - you've decided that Cawl HAS to be a mary sue, without looking at the evidence

Read The Great Work. It's got far more in there about Cawl than any other work, and dismantles practically every complaint about him.

He is definitely a marry sue. Entire Imperium does nothing and then there is just this one guy who slaps greater demons out of existence for breakfast. Pull out legions of superior super soldiers out of his closet for lunch and advances whole bunch of tech for Imperium for evening. Also, he is everywhere and does everything. That is very definition of marry sue.

Strange, I seem to remember there being Dark Eldar invited into the throne room by the Mechanicus back in I think 7th edition to help repair the failing Golden Throne? Where were all the complaints then?

Lore has many entries which doesn't make sense.

You can when a Living Saint, the Chief Librarian and Chapter Master of one of the most influential Chapters, and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights support it.

Things which even more doesn't make sense. Writers can say that Necrons and space marines are now best buddies purging xenos together, but it won't make it a proper lore. Emperor's demons are known to murder all xenos on sight as they represent contempt, hatred, vengeance. They materialize during diplomatic conversations with Eldar and just proceeds to slaughter those knife-ears without a single word.

es - sacred. And who are the people considered to be sacred and holy and blessed by the Emperor - the Primarchs, Living Saints, and the Custodes? Oh, wait, those are all the people who support Guilliman's stewardship.

Guilliman's a Primarch. It's well recorded that, even IF Guilliman had no legal authority (which he does, granted by the Custodes), people would still adore him because of his transhuman aura.

And there are far more strong willed forces in Imperium who can resist such feeble charms. The thing is, you have this entire Imperium which is nothing like an Imperium 10 thousands years ago. Things which had worked in the past, traditions, culture won't work in modern Imperium. For example, where suddenly disappeared Adeptus Mechanicus tendency to hoard knowledge? To ruthlessly test every bit of new tech to make sure that there is absolutely no way that it might go wrong? Where went all this respect for chapter's relics? Out of a window with new lore. We have to pretend that suddenly all of those things doesn't matter and everyone is fine just being completely different, because there is suddenly a new boss. Civil wars were caused for less than Guiliman did and I assume that it is only due to dire circumstances that such heretical acts were overlooked.

Agreed. For decentralised Legions, there's more than enough room for members to be devoted to Chaos, devoted to singular Gods, or hate everything to do with Chaos.
There's plenty of room for Night Lords to worship a certain god. There's plenty of room for a Death Guard legionary to hate Chaos. The idea that "this Legion hates Chaos" as if the Legion was even properly unified just isn't what we're shown.

As said above - the "extreme professional" Iron Warriors have Berzerkers in their ranks. They use Daemon Engines. They've even been content to summon Daemonic armies and plagues to further their goals.

And Night Lords are led by a demon, so all this theory just falls flat.

Having Librarians has never meant attachment to the Chaos Gods, unless you're implying that the Grey Knights are Chaos worshippers.

Librarians draw power from the Warp. Sorcerors often draw power from the Chaos Gods themselves (of course, there's Sorcerors who have natural psychic power, like Librarians).

There is no such distinction in lore. Both draw power from the warp. These is no fundamental difference between librarian and chaos sorcerer.

 Ernestas wrote:

And which ones have been broken? In those examples I've given above, which ones don't work according to these "rules"?

Difficulties in doing science at such level. Technology in W40k rarely benefits species as a whole. Imperium tried to improve on Emperor's work countless times. Ever heard of skinless Raven Guard marines? Ever heard of Cursed founding? Emperor's work was simply made mockery of and it contradicts internal rules of setting. Space marines are established as very effective special forces. So why Tau doesn't get their own Primaris? Chaos was trying to make them for so many years, why they don't get Primaris? Why for feth sake every technologically advanced race now doesn't have their own Primaris Marines?...

Are the giant T5 Havocs on 40mm bases not Chaos Primaris Marines?

I dont have an issue with space wolves.. they could be referred to by their cooler names though, and that baby blue colour scheme? dear god. bring back the heresy era blue grey.

Primarchs.