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2020/02/05 23:55:00
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Da Boss wrote: Guilleman went and had a conversation with the Emperor on the Golden Throne. He found out that the Emperor does not love him, or the rest of humanity, but coldly sees them as tools, and then lied to everyone about it for the sake of the Imperium, but he was sad about it.
I just read that little bit of lore from whatever book it was in, and yes, that is now the piece of lore I would like to see gone forever.
I guess my second place would be the bloodtide or whatever, when the Grey Knights butchered the Sisters for their blood.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2020/02/06 00:32:50
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Ok. . .
So your argument is the Armageddon campaign is roughly equivalent to a Primarch returning, Space Marines being replaced en masse, and the Eye of Terror expanding across the galaxy.
That appears to be the case you're trying to make.
Can you understand how those are not equivalent things?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 00:39:28
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Ok. . .
So your argument is the Armageddon campaign is roughly equivalent to a Primarch returning, Space Marines being replaced en masse, and the Eye of Terror expanding across the galaxy.
No, because you're comparing three things in one.
Guilliman returning is a separate event to the onset of the Primaris Marines, which is a separate event to the Eye of Terror expanding. They might be caused by one another, but they are separate events.
By that same virtue, the Black Crusades are the same event as the Eye of Terror expanding, and Guilliman returning, because they followed in a causal chain, which would destroy the premise of "the new stuff = bad, old stuff = good".
Guilliman returning is fine, because he doesn't change anything fundamental about the setting. He is, for all intents and purposes, a bigger Chapter Master. He doesn't do anything more extreme than Goge Vandire.
Primaris coming in is fine, because it's not like the Imperium has never made super soldiers, grav-tech, better armour/weapons, or more Chapters before, and when you actually remember that it took Cawl 10,000 years to make these slight improvements to the design he already made, it's really not that bad.*
The Eye of Terror expanding has changed nothing about how you interact with the setting. You still have infinite room to play your own battles, the impact of Chaos have been raised, Abaddon feels like less of a failure, and this has been foreshadowed for a few editions now (I think the 6th ed Chaos Codex makes a reference to this being Abaddon's plan).
Individually, each is just as fine as Armageddon, IMO.
*now, the fact that Primaris weren't set up OOC, and just popped up from nowhere in OUR universe, is a different matter, but that shouldn't matter when talking from an in-universe perspective, no?
Can you understand how those are not equivalent things?
Of course they're not equivalent - you're comparing three major events to one event.
Now, comparing any of them to Armageddon? Yeah, I think they're equivalently important and central events. Same as things like the Tyranids arriving, the Damocles Gulf, the Slaughter at Sanctuary 101, the 13th Black Crusade, the Abyssal Crusade, Badab War, etc etc.
If you disagree, that's fine, but in my perception, they're equally important events, and if all treated fairly without the rose tinted glasses, they'd all be guilty of "making the universe a smaller place".
They/them
2020/02/06 13:28:49
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Crimson wrote:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
We probably cannot. It is obviously true, but some people have terrible taste.
Ah yes, the good old "my opinion is obviously the right one an obviously objectively correct, and anyone who has a different one is objectively wrong and has terrible taste."
Stay mad. I'm gonna enjoy the setting.
They/them
2020/02/06 15:17:10
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Ouze wrote: I guess my second place would be the bloodtide or whatever, when the Grey Knights butchered the Sisters for their blood.
If it makes you feel better, all Grey Knights codexes past 5th have changed it so the Sisters were already dead when the GK showed up. Doesn't clear up the whole problem with that piece, but imho it clears up the most egregious part.
2020/02/06 16:21:42
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Crimson wrote:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
We probably cannot. It is obviously true, but some people have terrible taste.
Ah yes, the good old "my opinion is obviously the right one an obviously objectively correct, and anyone who has a different one is objectively wrong and has terrible taste."
Stay mad. I'm gonna enjoy the setting.
Some opinions are wrong though...
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2020/02/06 16:48:25
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Crimson wrote:
queen_annes_revenge wrote: can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
We probably cannot. It is obviously true, but some people have terrible taste.
Ah yes, the good old "my opinion is obviously the right one an obviously objectively correct, and anyone who has a different one is objectively wrong and has terrible taste."
Stay mad. I'm gonna enjoy the setting.
Some opinions are wrong though...
I actually enjoy the Primarch and G man fluff. Also the Primaris stuff I actually like too.
Edit* Added Primaris
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 16:48:56
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2020/02/06 17:06:22
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
queen_annes_revenge wrote:can we not all agree that most things to do with guillimans return, primaris, ultramarines in general is boring?
Sure, as long as everything else in 40k is boring too. After all, who cares if someone actually likes something - if *I* don't like it, then it's ridiculous that other people might!
Different opinions are a thing, you know?
Some opinions are wrong though...
Okay.
Your opinion is wrong.
See how utterly ridiculous that is for me to claim?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SeanDavid1991 wrote: I actually enjoy the Primarch and G man fluff. Also the Primaris stuff I actually like too.
Edit* Added Primaris
Nah, clearly you're wrong for having that opinion, and have absolutely no taste. How DARE someone disagree with the Almighty Wisdom of queen_annes_revenge!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/06 17:07:56
They/them
2020/02/06 20:10:19
Subject: Re:What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
As many have pointed out their lore just doesn't seem to fit with the falling apart Imperium lore. Do they look cool? Yes. Great sculpting? Yes. Nice product? Yes.
But seriously their wounds vs. points costs? I don't get it. And kept secret while war going on? Nah.
"They don't know us. Robot tanks are no match for space marines." Sergeant Knox from Star Blazers
Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and the Life
2020/02/06 21:34:25
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
I just act as if all the stories, fluff, and art are unreliable narrators. That way if there's a piece of lore I don't like, I just headcanon it into something I do.
Like: the rubicon Primaris was actually invented back in the day when the Imperium actually knew how to invent things. It wasn't kept secret---it was forgotten. And only recently did somebody rediscover it. Or maybe Primaris is actually just a new (rediscovered) mark of armor hyped up into something bigger. Perhaps it was Cawl, claiming to have invented it. Or perhaps Cawl only claimed to have found it but some in the Imperium are suspicious that it's actually some kind of tech-heresy. Or the Imperium is claiming to have invented it to mask their civilization's stagnation and decline. All of these options are more interesting and more consistent with core 40K themes than the "official" lore.
Headcanon is best canon.
2020/02/06 23:11:15
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Like: the rubicon Primaris was actually invented back in the day when the Imperium actually knew how to invent things. It wasn't kept secret---it was forgotten. And only recently did somebody rediscover it.
that's... actually basicly the actual canon.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/02/06 23:23:03
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/02/06 23:27:09
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
I'd love to go back to the days when Mat Ward's puerile writing was the worst thing in the 40K fluff. Since then GW has fully gone: "Oh, you think Draigo was bad; hold my beer!"
Insectum7 wrote:Ok Smudge, how did Armageddon dramatically change the setting?
What do you mean by "setting"?
Do you mean how does Armageddon matter in universe? It's a symbolic and strategic hotspot, with the potential to both cripple and embolden massive portions of the Orks or Imperium respectively.
Do you mean what does it matter out-of-universe? It works as a commentary of the Imperium and the Ork's similarities and methods of pursuing warfare (aka, throwing ever larger numbers into a meatgrinder which will either break or bolster the side that wins).
I don't see Primaris or Guilliman or the Great Rift as dramatic changes to the setting, because Primaris Marines are basically just Space Marines, with a fresh coat of paint. They don't add much, they don't change much that we already didn't know - the Imperium can innovate and create some truly magnificently deadly weapons of war and genetically engineered super soldiers, but they require a lot of time and material investment. Primaris took 10,000 years to develop, and are no easier to make than normal Marines.
Guilliman is, for all intents and purposes, a big Chapter Master, who just happens to outrank the other ones. He's not made big sweeping changes that have made the Imperium of M41 any different to M42.
The Great Rift is just a line drawn on a map that had no scale to begin with. Just like before, there's enough room on the map for everyone.
As I said above, the sandbox never changed. People threw more toys in there, but there's still enough room for you.
Ok. . .
So your argument is the Armageddon campaign is roughly equivalent to a Primarch returning, Space Marines being replaced en masse, and the Eye of Terror expanding across the galaxy.
No, because you're comparing three things in one.
Guilliman returning is a separate event to the onset of the Primaris Marines, which is a separate event to the Eye of Terror expanding. They might be caused by one another, but they are separate events.
By that same virtue, the Black Crusades are the same event as the Eye of Terror expanding, and Guilliman returning, because they followed in a causal chain, which would destroy the premise of "the new stuff = bad, old stuff = good".
Guilliman returning is fine, because he doesn't change anything fundamental about the setting. He is, for all intents and purposes, a bigger Chapter Master. He doesn't do anything more extreme than Goge Vandire.
Primaris coming in is fine, because it's not like the Imperium has never made super soldiers, grav-tech, better armour/weapons, or more Chapters before, and when you actually remember that it took Cawl 10,000 years to make these slight improvements to the design he already made, it's really not that bad.*
The Eye of Terror expanding has changed nothing about how you interact with the setting. You still have infinite room to play your own battles, the impact of Chaos have been raised, Abaddon feels like less of a failure, and this has been foreshadowed for a few editions now (I think the 6th ed Chaos Codex makes a reference to this being Abaddon's plan).
Individually, each is just as fine as Armageddon, IMO.
*now, the fact that Primaris weren't set up OOC, and just popped up from nowhere in OUR universe, is a different matter, but that shouldn't matter when talking from an in-universe perspective, no?
Can you understand how those are not equivalent things?
Of course they're not equivalent - you're comparing three major events to one event.
Now, comparing any of them to Armageddon? Yeah, I think they're equivalently important and central events. Same as things like the Tyranids arriving, the Damocles Gulf, the Slaughter at Sanctuary 101, the 13th Black Crusade, the Abyssal Crusade, Badab War, etc etc.
If you disagree, that's fine, but in my perception, they're equally important events, and if all treated fairly without the rose tinted glasses, they'd all be guilty of "making the universe a smaller place".
Nice try. You're welcome to your opinion, buuut. . .
Armageddon Subsector:
Spoiler:
The Great Rift:
Spoiler:
Your opinion is wrong.
Claiming that these two events are even close to the same level of magnitude is pants-on-head levels of incorrect.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/02/07 20:20:14
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Armageddon is the ancient tale of a proud and noble race reclaiming what was once theirs from an interloping race. The Humans will rue the day they ever stepped foot on holy Ullanor!
Also keep Angron away from our planet. Why does he get to have it now and hijack the plot from us Orks!
2020/02/07 20:23:16
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Big Mac wrote: Kal Draigo going into the warp and fight demons in their turf, every fluff Matty Ward writes. There is a reason GW don’t publish the author behind their codexes, instead it publish the whole team.
Ward left the company before even Age Of Sigmar. His last thing for GW was The End Times. Cruddace is in charge of 40k army books right now, which is why Nids are stuck as eternally bland and IG keep getting better.
2020/02/07 20:27:51
Subject: Re:What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Primaris marine's new hover tanks. For me it just clashes with the Imperium aesthetic. I get that they're new and progressive, but they just need to stay on the ground. I'm slowly beginning to suspect Cawl of secretly being two Tau wrapped in a robe.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/07 21:27:37
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
2020/02/07 21:04:25
Subject: What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Insectum7 wrote:Nice try. You're welcome to your opinion, buuut. . .
Armageddon Subsector:
Spoiler:
The Great Rift:
Spoiler:
Nice maps, but well done for missing my point. Who cares how big they are, when there's effectively infinite space around it?
That's my point about 40k maps, and the universe as a whole. No matter how big the system, the subsector, or the galaxy, there is ALWAYS room for your guys.
Armageddon is as large as it needs to be in order to allow for everyone's homebrew dudes to have fought there. Same as the Black Crusades. Same as Vigilus. Same as any other large war in 40k - there's always room for your guys to have been involved in some way.
The official battle roster doesn't mention your guys? That's just because the roster was made before your guys arrived, or maybe your guys just didn't get counted by Imperial census takers.
My point stands - the Great Rift is an event like any other major event in 40k.
Your opinion is wrong.
No u.
If you're incapable of making a halfway decent argument without resorting to what is essentially trolling, I see no reason to humour you.
Claiming that these two events are even close to the same level of magnitude is pants-on-head levels of incorrect.
As above; no u.
nareik wrote:Great rift is not really comparable to Armageddon. More like the arrival of hive fleet Leviathon, or maybe the release of Primaris marines.
I don't know - the Armageddon campaigns create a massive destablisation in that subsector, drawing in even reinforcements from Terra, and have caused exponentially massive numbers of Orks to join Thraka's banner.
But, regardless, that you compare the Rift to the arrival of Leviathan is proof of my point that old fluff is just as guilty of being "too important" as the new stuff.
They/them
2020/02/07 21:17:10
Subject: Re:What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage.
Armageddon does not come close to comparing with the Great rift.
Call me a troll all you like, but when I say one event is far larger, and you say "well, nuh-uh". I call BS and question the credibility of your arguments. You can try and hide behind an alternative "point" about sandbox or whatever, but the importance and effect of those to events are magnitudes apart.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage.
Armageddon does not come close to comparing with the Great rift.
In your opinion.
Call me a troll all you like, but when I say one event is far larger, and you say "well, nuh-uh". I call BS and question the credibility of your arguments.
Well, firstly, you'd have to prove that your opinion is objectively correct.
Since you are unable to do so, I suggest you give up, and just accept we have different opinions. I'm not saying you're objectively wrong, I'm saying I disagree.
You've given your opinion. I've given my opinion how I disagree with yours. You've now just said "no, you can't disagree, because I'm objectively right".
Surely you can see how ignorant that is?
You can try and hide behind an alternative "point" about sandbox or whatever, but the importance and effect of those to events are magnitudes apart.
In your opinion.
All I have to do, to have the same weight as your arguments, is just repeat what you've said, with an "aren't" instead of the "are". That's how paper-thin your argument is.
They/them
2020/02/07 21:37:24
Subject: Re:What is one piece of lore you'd be happy to see gone forever?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But the Black Crusades and Armageddon weren't tiny at all on the galactic stage.
Armageddon does not come close to comparing with the Great rift.
In your opinion.
Call me a troll all you like, but when I say one event is far larger, and you say "well, nuh-uh". I call BS and question the credibility of your arguments.
Well, firstly, you'd have to prove that your opinion is objectively correct.
Since you are unable to do so, I suggest you give up, and just accept we have different opinions. I'm not saying you're objectively wrong, I'm saying I disagree.
You've given your opinion. I've given my opinion how I disagree with yours. You've now just said "no, you can't disagree, because I'm objectively right".
Surely you can see how ignorant that is?
You can try and hide behind an alternative "point" about sandbox or whatever, but the importance and effect of those to events are magnitudes apart.
In your opinion.
All I have to do, to have the same weight as your arguments, is just repeat what you've said, with an "aren't" instead of the "are". That's how paper-thin your argument is.
If you're comfortable holding an opinion that's counter to readily accessible data, be my guest. I have some flat-earther videos to point you to.
Insectum7 wrote: If you're comfortable holding an opinion that's counter to readily accessible data, be my guest.
Please - demonstrate to us all how your opinion can only be objectively correct, and never false.
I'm waiting.
You'r going to be waiting for a long time. I didn't state an opinion, I posted a verifiable claim, and posted data to back it up. You, on the other hand, are simply hiding behind the word "opinion" because you can't counter the data.
I have some flat-earther videos to point you to.
Sorry, did you just compare having a different interpretation of a fictional universe to being ignorant to millennia-old scientific data?
I sure did, because the user-mechanics in this case are the same.
If you're going to make a claim, back it up. This is the lore channel, so find some lore. I claim that two events are orders of magnitude apart. I posted reference to this point. Your counter is to cry "opinion!", and to offer no other counter argument. Make a substantive counter.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
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